Be Your Child’s Hope With Cindy King

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Cindy. Cindy King, looking forward to our conversation today. Cindy, you're looking great. A massive smile on your face. And it's Monday right? So that's gonna be great. Yes, but I'm excited to be here. Thank you Simon. You're very welcome. So Cindy is a mum to nine kids right? But I think two are just at home now, is that right? Did you say?

[00:00:30] So I have 10 children, two of them are at home. Yes. Two of them are at home. 10, right. Okay. Sorry. Where did I get nine from? Sorry. So Cindy was with Keystone Family Alliance in Pennsylvania. And in the past you may have heard the interview that I did with Vince, who is also an adoptee dad and leads Keystone Family Alliance.

[00:00:54] And he just suggested that Cindy would be a great person to talk to. And we had a ball last time. So looking forward to our conversation today. So the big question that we like to start with, right? The thriving one, Cindy. What does thriving mean to you? Oh, I think it's such a great question. And I've enjoyed listening to the answers that you're the people that you've interviewed have come up with.

[00:01:22] And I think there's a common theme through a lot of them. But as I've thought about this, I think about Dr. Terry Wardle, who has talks a lot about the core longings of a person. And he has six, that we all have these longings for love, security, that's also including safety, purpose, understanding, significance, and belonging.

[00:01:45] And I think that when we can find ourselves in a good place in all of those areas, that is when we are really thriving. However, recognizing that for a lot of us, we are going to struggle in some of those areas. And so I think it's a journey of thriving. And I particularly look at the area of purpose. I think when a person finds their purpose, that is where they really thrive.

[00:02:15] Yeah. I love that one. I love that one too, the purpose thing. And I think it's something that often comes to us later in life. I think that's true. And, you know, as my husband and I have been parents to five children who've come into our home through foster care and adoption, one of the things we've had to do is change our definition of success in parenting.

[00:02:43] I think it's the same for biological children as well, because they all have free will and they can make their own choices. But when a child has experienced some significant early childhood trauma and they're struggling to understand love and they don't have that felt safety that some children do, they don't know where their significance lies yet,

[00:03:04] I think it sometimes is a longer process. And I think that when they can find that purpose, that is when they're going to do so well. But yeah, it is a process. It's a journey. And I think thriving does take time. Yeah. And I guess if kids have been in foster care, then they can sometimes feel very insignificant, right?

[00:03:31] Absolutely. You know, I just try to think about what it would be like. I can't understand that. I had parents that loved me and gave me that identity and feeling of significance. But yeah, for a child who's gone from home to home, I cannot imagine what that internal monologue is of what kind of person am I that just keeps being turned away? And yeah, it's going to take a long time to find that significance.

[00:04:00] And it's going to take a long time to feel loved. And it's going to take a long time to belong. How do you feel like you belong in a home when you don't know how long you'll be there? Yeah. So what was coming to me as you shared Terry Waddell's comments was, I'm thinking about it with what you just said. Now, it seemed a bit like a sequence to me.

[00:04:28] Maybe we've got this feeling of insignificance. And then hopefully when somebody finds some permanence there, there's the felt safe, the felt feeling of safety. That grows and the other things follow on from that. Does it feel like a process? I think it can be.

[00:04:56] Although I think that a lot of times it's all happening all together at the same time and in different orders. And I think it just depends on the person and their experiences, their past experiences. But also, what does that healing journey look like? You know, have they found a home where they feel like they belong? Or are they still being tossed from home to home? Are they in a place where they are loved?

[00:05:25] Are they in a, do they feel safe? Have they gotten to that place where they can let their guard down a little bit and feel safe? And felt safety is such a huge thing for a lot of kids who, for most, if not all children, who have experienced early childhood trauma to feel safe in a home or in an environment. So I think they're all happening at the same time. Maybe there's a typical order.

[00:05:51] But I think that as one grows, then we can grow in another area. And we just continue to build. And I think it's a lifelong process. Yeah. Yeah. What if, so perhaps I'm looking at it too, in a too linear a fashion. What have you learned about the early days of that, of that settling in, that feeling the stability, feeling the safety?

[00:06:22] Yeah. And are we specifically talking about a child who's experienced? Yeah. Yes. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I do. I train people on early childhood trauma, complex developmental trauma. I'm a TBRI practitioner. So I come from that lens of trust-based relational intervention.

[00:06:44] And I think that's, you know, as a parent bringing children into my home, that's what we're working on constantly is that issue of trust, which is so connected to love and safety. And then as that's what we're working on. And then as that is built, and maybe here's where you're kind of thinking in a linear fashion. You know, I think it has to start there because in a healthy environment, that's where an infant does start.

[00:07:09] They do start with that love and safety and connection and attachment. And then from that, everything is going to come for them throughout that healthy journey of life. For a child who doesn't experience that in a healthy way, we're constantly trying to help them build that, understand love, know that they are loved, that they are valued, that they are so precious just for being them, just for being here. Yeah.

[00:07:40] Because I've interviewed many people with this TBRI training, and it seems to be a game changer. Often it's a game changer in terms of self-awareness. So people go on TBRI for how they relate to kids, and what they actually get out of it is how they relate to themselves. And you're not in a way of that.

[00:08:10] I wonder the trust and the safety thing, and what have you learned about the mistakes, perhaps, that people make that become clear to you when you're doing the training?

[00:08:35] So you've had that depth of that training, and clearly with five kids, an adopted kid, right? So you've not just got the training, you've got just the theory, you've got the theory in practice. What are some of the mistakes that you see or things that people see after you've trained them, the ones that you actually engage with?

[00:09:04] Yeah. So first, to your earlier point of what we learn about ourselves through becoming TBRI practitioners, absolutely. Because I think that's their first goal, is that we understand our own attachment and how we come to see the world. And that's definitely going to factor into how we relate to children. And so we have to understand that. So when I do trainings, I often start by saying that.

[00:09:32] As we learn about early childhood and attachment, you think you're here to learn about children, but you're also going to better understand your colleagues. You're going to better understand your family members. And you're also going to understand yourself better. And I often have conversations with people who come up to me at the end, just thanking me for how they've been able to understand their own past better. Because let's face it, none of us had perfect parents.

[00:10:02] So it didn't even have to be severe abuse or neglect. It could just be that someone was not allowed to have a voice as they were growing up. And that's definitely going to factor into how they relate to people as an adult. So absolutely, I totally agree with you that we learn more about ourselves the more we learn about attachment. But yeah, mistakes.

[00:10:26] So most of us were parented in what we consider a traditional parenting style. I used to be a teacher. Most teachers come to education with that same traditional style, which is very behavioral. If you, the child, do this, then this happens. If you don't do this, then this happens or this doesn't happen. It's very rewards-based, consequences-based.

[00:10:54] And when I train people, whether that be volunteers in churches or educators in schools or parents, caseworkers, I say, well, that kind of parenting may work with some children. When we use a TBRI lens, that is going to work with all children.

[00:11:19] And it's because it takes out the fear-based aspect of it that comes into play when we come from a traditional lens. We don't think of it as we're growing up. And people will often say, well, yeah, that's how I was parented and I turned out okay. We did. But even when I look back on it, how much of that was fear-based. And we don't want children to be learning from a place of fear and of consequences.

[00:11:49] And the opposite side of that is TBRI has been criticized for not teaching life skills. But TBRI would disagree and I would disagree. Because what we've learned is we cannot teach those life skills if a child is afraid or they're not attached to someone. So we have to go back to that which they should have received as an infant or early toddlerhood but didn't.

[00:12:15] And we have to help them feel connected and know that they are valued and loved and that they can trust others. Yeah. So a practical point for you listeners if you're an adopted parent and you're thinking, well, yeah, this is good. But what can I do, right? One of the things that we can do is we can do an online attachment style questionnaire, right?

[00:12:43] So if you Google online attachment style questionnaire, or I would guess you could probably use AI to do that these days, right? To do it as a question, a Q&A kind of thing. And that will surface some stuff. Because as we often say on the podcast, it's hard to see the picture when we're in the frame. So that self-awareness, that self-awareness piece.

[00:13:11] One of the reasons that I, one of the key people along my journey was a, who made me aware of the stuff that I couldn't see, was a guy called Christian Simpson. And that was one of his favourite kind of sayings. It's hard to see the picture when we're in the frame. So he said that to me like 13, 14 years ago.

[00:13:37] And it's really stuck with me because he pointed me towards, he saw something in me where there was some, let's say, unresolved trauma there. And doing that was huge for me at the time. Yeah. So if you want to get a handle on your own attachment style, find an online questionnaire.

[00:14:07] And I'll put something in the show notes about that. See if I can find something that will short circuit it. So yeah, what struck me as you were talking about it is this fear thing. Well, the kids are already coming into the home scare, right?

[00:14:27] So if we, if, if we start with this behavioural approach and we start with an approach that brings more fear to them, then that, that's, that, that fear is going to grow. It's just going to, and the felt sense of safety is going to be further and further away. Yeah. That's right. And we just trigger them more.

[00:14:49] And then we wonder why we see behaviours that confuse us or maybe even scare us at a, at a certain level. There's one of the TBRI trainers has a great question. He says, why are we surprised if we are not meeting the needs for felt safety? Then, then why are we surprised when we see the results of, of our mistakes? And we didn't know what we didn't know.

[00:15:19] For, for us, the journey, you know, we, we parented our biological children from a traditional lens of rewards and consequences. And we thought we were great parents because they were good listeners and we could take them places and we could take them in public and they knew how to behave. They've, I wish I could go back and do it again. They're doing great.

[00:15:41] They're, they're all, they're thriving, but, but knowing what I know now, and even the first, you know, our first adoption, we call our Disney world adoption. Because she really did not struggle with a lot of the behaviors that we see in some of the other children. But then the next child that came into our home was 10 years old and had a lot of life experience before he came into our home.

[00:16:09] And, and that's his story to tell, but definite significant losses in his life. And so, yeah, why was he going to trust this new mother when there had been several before me that, that left? So we have to start there.

[00:16:27] And what a lot of us didn't know as new foster adoptive kinship parents is that, yeah, the, the traditional method tends to trigger, re-trigger, bring out the behaviors. And, and, and when we look at it from a traditional lens, then our question is to the child, maybe not out loud, but what's wrong with you? Or why can't you fix this? Clearly, this is a safe house. Clearly, we love you.

[00:16:57] We provided you with everything. Why are you not reciprocating? Or why are you not, you know, why isn't this changing? But we have to understand that children are born. They are created for connection, for attachment. I love how Dr. Kurt Thompson says it. Something like every child is born into this world, looking for someone, looking for him, looking for her.

[00:17:21] And when children didn't get that, we need to go back there at whatever age they are and help them find that attachment, that connection. Have that caregiver that, that is going to say you are precious in the sunshine and the rain, as Dr. Purvis used to say, that sees that preciousness and can call it out.

[00:17:43] And can help the child trust, know that they're loved and valued, that they're safe, that they have a voice. All of those things are so important. One of the things that has become clearer about me and on my kind of self-awareness journey was what I call the projection of rejection.

[00:18:08] So where I have seen rejection that wasn't there. Yeah. It wasn't there. What have you learned about the felt safety? If we look at rejection and safety as two ends of a spectrum, what have you learned about felt safety? Yeah.

[00:18:36] If someone doesn't feel safe, then when we talk about the brain, they are going to be reacting out of their amygdala rather than thinking and responding from their prefrontal cortex. And so with a child in particular, that's where we're going to see the fight, flight, freeze or fawn responses. Adults as well. But in my experiences, in my trainings, we talk about the child.

[00:19:06] And so we need to help them feel safe so that they can, we say, bring that prefrontal cortex back on. I love the Dr. Siegel's hand model. I use it a lot. And just to describe it for listeners, it's you take your hand, you put your fingers over your thumb and you think about this as your brain, your thumb being your amygdala. And if you don't feel safe, you are triggered, then your prefrontal cortex is not going to be on board.

[00:19:36] And we have the phrase, he or she has flipped their lid. And so then we can take our hand, we can put our fingers up, then we're going to be reacting from our amygdala. So, you know. That coming from anger? Is that coming from anger? Yeah. It can be coming from anger. It can be coming from what you're talking about, that rejection. It could be coming from just not trusting. It could be coming from a place of sadness.

[00:20:05] It can be coming from so many things. And you ask a good question because then for the caregiver, their goal is to try to be curious. Where is this coming from? Where did the trigger come? Why did the lid get flipped? And what can I, as the caregiver, do to help create an environment where this child feels safe? So was it my loud voice? Did that bring the fear?

[00:20:30] Was it that the child had experienced this in the past and maybe the body is remembering something? You know, we talk about a child who's experienced, a person, anyone who's experienced trauma. There are changes in their brain, body, biology, belief systems. And of course, there's going to be changes in their behavior. And so when we're seeing those behaviors in another person, be it child, teen, adult, it's on us to ask the question and be curious. Why?

[00:20:58] What's going on in the brain, body, biology, and belief systems? You know, for I think a lot of our children, particularly in schools, when they start to see themselves as a failure or as someone that nobody wants, then of course we're going to see behaviors because what do they do with that? They feel very unsafe everywhere.

[00:21:24] They feel like they're not loved, that they are another trigger that's pretty common is feeling out of control. So if a person feels out of control, they do not feel safe. And we're going to see fight, flight, freeze or fawn, whether that be a child or an adult. And, you know, too often as the caregiver, if you don't understand what's happening, then there's no felt safety in the caregiver in that moment either.

[00:21:54] And if a caregiver is triggered and they've flipped their lid, they've lost their ability to think and be curious, that's not going to be good for the child or the adult. The anger might be more obvious though, right? Absolutely. And we tend to put it all there, I think. It's just an angry child. Rather than where does that come from? Being curious about where that's coming from.

[00:22:25] Yeah. So it's all about the questions that we ask ourselves about how we react to that, how we change first. This is an empowerment model. This is about us having to change first. Yeah. Absolutely. And TBRI would say it's more about the adult than it is about the child.

[00:22:54] That's where we have to start. We have to look at ourselves. We have to figure out what, you know, if I'm being triggered, why am I being triggered? I think the old model would say, this child's pushing my buttons. But instead of this child is pushing my buttons, the better questions are, why do I have buttons? And what do I need to do so they can't be pushed anymore? Yeah. And I can give an example for myself.

[00:23:22] One of my buttons was I didn't want to be embarrassed. As a parent, I didn't want to be embarrassed. I didn't want to be that parent in the grocery store aisle with the child on the floor kicking and screaming, not moving. And so in that moment, I would be triggered and I would be less likely to be curious. But through this lens of what do I need to change?

[00:23:46] I needed to change that trigger and not see it as this is embarrassing, but see it as this is a child in need. What does this child need? I need to stay calm so that I can give this child what he needs in this moment. Yeah.

[00:24:05] I've heard before that one of the errors that we can make is not seeing our role in this, not seeing that we have to change first. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's hard to admit that I make mistakes, but we do. We all do.

[00:24:30] And even I have to believe that the most knowledgeable person in complex developmental trauma is still human and is still going to be triggered and is still going to make mistakes. But when we talk about trauma, one of the things we know is that there's beauty in the repair.

[00:24:55] So when ruptures happen, how we respond to that can be just as healing as if there had never been any rupture. Because ruptures are going to happen. We're humans. We aren't going to get this all right all the time. So when we do make a mistake, when there is a rupture in a relationship, then how do we repair that?

[00:25:21] And as a caregiver, by being able to go to a child and say, I'm really sorry I yelled. And I can see that that triggered you more. So let's try it again and give ourselves both the opportunity to redo it. And that's a huge part of TBRI as well is the redo and being able to repair in that process. Okay. Are you talking about vulnerability there?

[00:25:49] There's absolutely a vulnerability there. And yeah. And we as the caregivers, we need to be the first to be vulnerable. Yeah. And yet that vulnerability, it kind of, I felt it's the lubricant for empathy really. Yeah. I can see that. You know, one thing that we know about empathy is that the more stress we feel or are under,

[00:26:18] the less empathy we can have and vice versa. So yeah, again, as a caregiver, if I am being mindful and I am, I am being, keeping my stress level down, I'm going to be more empathetic to the person in front of me. Yeah.

[00:26:42] What were the most important things that you learnt about yourself or that you are learning throughout about yourself from TBRI and the parenting journey? And I know you, you know, like you continue to, you continue to seek new knowledge for yourself.

[00:27:02] So you go to, you go to CAFO and listen as well as you running, you're running your own events, you're doing your own training, but you're also putting yourself in spaces where you can learn and keep learning. Yeah. I love to learn. And I find this subject so fascinating because it gives us glimpses into what we are as humans.

[00:27:30] And, um, 30, 40 years ago, we didn't have this understanding. And, and, and I think we're just scratching the surface. I think there's so much more to be learned. I think there's parts of it we're never going to completely understand, but yeah, I am always reading, always learning. I love the Christian Alliance for Orphans. Uh, I, I, I just soak it in, but what have I learned about myself? Good question and a good place to practice vulnerability.

[00:27:58] Um, I learned that I am a person who, um, definitely feels unsafe when I am not in control. And that butts heads with children in my home who also have a need to be in control. So that is definitely an area of my life in which I've had to work on that for myself.

[00:28:22] Um, seeing myself in those interactions with a child and seeing how, uh, if I don't work on my own needs in that situation, I'm going to need control. They're going to need control. And we're just going to escalate the situation. So that has been a huge one for me. Um, as I mentioned earlier, recognizing that I was a person that parented out of embarrassment, especially in public.

[00:28:51] Um, having to let that go and realize, um, to help my children, I need to not worry about what we look like in public. Uh, that they are who they are and we're going to do what we need to do to help them through whatever that situation is that might look to others. Like we don't know what we're doing.

[00:29:16] Um, but, but we do know through attachment based, uh, practices, how to handle that. And so not worry about what others are thinking or, or saying or doing around me. And, um, there was one time where we had a child that we, we were in, we were, we were getting ice cream and I don't remember what happened,

[00:29:40] but this child who's probably about five or six at the time, completely lost it in the ice cream shop. And I was upset. I was embarrassed. My husband was with me and he was able to say, um, look, why don't you just go ahead, get the car. I'll take care of this. And as I walked out, there was a mother and a teenage son who walked out behind me.

[00:30:05] And somehow, I guess they didn't notice that I was related to the child that had lost it in the store and they were talking about it. And at first I was embarrassed. I, I was upset. I was getting angry, um, because they saw it through. They didn't understand. They didn't understand what was behind this and how much this child had suffered early on and where this came from.

[00:30:30] Um, so that time I was able to turn around and, uh, what, well, what the mom said was the mom looked at her son and she said, you would have never done that in public because if you had, I would have whooped your butt. And at that point I turned around and I said, I, I'm so glad to hear that, that you were able to parent your son so well.

[00:30:56] But what you don't know is that my son has experienced a lot of early childhood trauma. And there are reasons that he is struggling right now. And that if I were to do what you just suggested, that would make things worse. And it would not help us attach and connect as a parent and child. And that is not how we are parenting him. And I turned around and left. And, um, maybe there was more to say, maybe I shouldn't have said anything.

[00:31:24] But for me, that was a win that I, that I was able to say something calmly, um, not be upset at the woman, because I don't think that would have, would have changed anything either. But to just calmly say, um, in the future, maybe try to see it differently. If you see something similar in public. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:46] So the key thing there would be that the judgment that they, um, that, uh, the, the, the other people were judging, that they were judging the child. In that case, they definitely were. I think for me, sometimes I perceived judgment when maybe it wasn't there. Um, that one, absolutely. Because I heard the conversation.

[00:32:10] Um, and I think judging others is maybe pretty common to us. Yes. Yeah. I think it comes. Yeah. Yeah. It comes pretty naturally. We don't have to learn it. And I, I think, you know, it's one of those, if you haven't been in, in someone's shoes, we are more judgmental. And I, um, yeah, I'm, I know I was a lot more judgmental before, um, having children that, that struggle. Yeah.

[00:32:38] Um, so you, you talked about, uh, 30, something happening 34 years ago. Was that the, was that the invention of TBRI? Or? I just threw out that number that, you know, we, a lot of what has happened is being, able to do brain scans that we couldn't do before. So we can actually see the difference in brains of a child who grew up, uh, securely attached,

[00:33:03] um, with healthy caregivers and the brain of a child that grew up in an orphanage, let's say. Um, and there's actually a picture that I, I see in my mind that I use in my trainings that I've seen in a lot of trainings that people have done. And that's exactly the scenario on, on the, on the one side, you see, the, the brain of a securely attached child. And on the other, you see the brain of a child that grew up in an orphanage.

[00:33:28] And, um, you know, you, in that particular, um, illustration, you, you want to see areas of the brain lit up in color. And that means the brain is able to communicate right and left front and back. Um, and then the brain of the child who grew up in the orphanage, it has a lot of areas that are dark, that are black where that is not happening. Um, but another thing you see in that scan is where the activity is happening.

[00:33:55] So in the, the healthy child, the child with a secure attachment, um, it's, it's lit up in the front, the prefrontal cortex. This is a child that, that is, has logical thinking, can understand cause and effect, is using their prefrontal cortex. Well, the other child, the area that is really lit up is the amygdala, the area of the brain where the amygdala would be. And, and we know that the amygdala of a person who's experienced trauma can be up to five times larger,

[00:34:24] um, their peers. So, um, of course that's going to come out in behaviors. Yeah. Yeah. What, what, I mean, we talked about judgment. Um, and I was thinking about them, that, that, that other mom, uh, judging the child. I was thinking about us judging children, uh, our children.

[00:34:51] And I was also thinking about us judging us, us and, um, humility and, and, and grace and, and that, and, and that good stuff. Right. So what have you, what have you learned about humility and, and grace and, and helping other people have that for themselves? Yeah.

[00:35:16] I'm glad you mentioned all three areas, um, you know, judging others, adults, judging children and judging ourselves, because that is a huge part of it. We can be really hard on ourselves. And so when I talk to parents in particular, um, I often start out by saying, remember, we didn't know what we didn't know. Um, but now that we know we're going to work at changing, but we're also not going to get it right. Even after we know.

[00:35:45] And so there has to be grace for ourselves. Um, because we, if we're going to be hard on ourselves, then we're going to be more stressed. Then we're going to be more triggered. Then we're not going to feel safe. So for all of us, this is a, this is a journey. This is a journey of, of becoming more, I would say more Christ-like. And so having that love for ourselves and for others, the grace for ourselves and for

[00:36:14] others is so important. Yeah. What gets in the way of it? What gets in the way of grace? That's a good question. You know, when we talk about people who've experienced trauma, we talk about their false belief systems. I think we all have false belief systems.

[00:36:38] And, and that's those false belief systems that are kind of the barrier between us and grace, you know, that I'll never get it right. I'll, I'll always keep making the same mistake. I, um, I'm going, I, I'm, I'm not helping my child. I think, um, those false beliefs are what get in the way. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it's a word, it's a phrase that we don't.

[00:37:08] Talk a lot about in the podcast, actually. Um, so whenever we get near it, I, my, my, my eyes light up because I see so much. I, I, I have such, I see such hope of changing beliefs. I, I see very little hope about changing feelings, right?

[00:37:34] So once a, once a feeling's in motion, like we've, we've got to let it, it's, it's very hard to, to stop it once it's in motion. And, and, and we're, and yet we're, we're told that we should do, right? I mean, it's, it's, it's nigh on impossible for me. I guess we, we catch ourselves before acting on it, right?

[00:38:03] There's a, there's a, there's a, there's that, there's that gap between response and, um, uh, you know, responding or reacting. And, but I see so much more hope in the belief part because beliefs seem far more changeable than feelings. Yeah. And I think with beliefs, the people we surround ourselves with can really help us there.

[00:38:33] So by surrounding as adults, surrounding myself with people who speak life into me and draw out, you know, call out what they see as, as the good things and can be the voice of reason. Um, I definitely believe God gave me the husband he did because he's someone who has been a great encourager and a great supporter and, and, and calls out those things and, and, and will challenge me in those false beliefs.

[00:39:01] Um, you know, and, and give me words of encouragement when I need them and has definitely been a huge part of my journey of overcoming some of those false beliefs and working on the rest. And, and I, so I think, you know, if that is what I need as an adult, then my kids need that so much more so, and especially the children who have those internal belief systems of false beliefs that say, I'm not good enough.

[00:39:30] I need to be in charge of myself. I can't trust anyone. The more I can speak into them, uh, the positives that I see, um, those, even if I just see glimpses of it, I know this is in there. It's in you. It's going to keep coming. We're going to keep working on it. You're going to develop it. You're going to get there. Yeah. And that's the message of hope. Yes. Yeah.

[00:39:57] So, um, how, okay. How do you find that hope? How do I find that hope? No, no. Fan it. Fan it. Yeah. I'm, I'm, you know, we're talking, we're talking about a glimpse. Um, and I'm thinking how, how that we open up that glimpse. How do we, uh, build on the small stuff? Yeah. I, I think that's it. We build on the small stuff.

[00:40:27] We constantly call out those little things. Uh, I remember hearing another adoptive parent one time say, you know, the, the best thing I could come up with today was great job buckling your seatbelt, honey. And, and sometimes it feels like that. Like it's, it's, it may seem like a small thing, but if it, if, if, if we're talking to a person whose internal belief system is, I am nothing, then we need to find every little

[00:40:57] thing that we can and call those things out. And we need to be somebody else's hope. Sometimes I've needed that in my life. Sometimes when I've completely felt hopeless about a situation, I've needed other people to come from their outside lens to show me where hope is in this situation. And so for kids, for me to be able to say like, I know this isn't the end of the story.

[00:41:24] Um, and, and one way I talk about it with the kids is to say, I, I know the author of your story. I know God who has written your story and it's a great story. And, and there's more to come. Um, and where does the most character development happen in the best stories and the best movies and the best books it's in those times of struggle.

[00:41:52] And when we, and challenge, um, so to say that we're good, we're going to get through this. We're here with you. I'm here with you. That's the hope. You're not in this alone and we're going to keep going. It, it may be hard. You may not have that hope for yourself. So I'm going to carry it for you until you can get there. Yeah. That feels like the perfect place to bring it in Cindy. Okay.

[00:42:21] Leaving everybody with that message of, uh, of, uh, hope. Um, when we don't have it ourselves, surround yourself with those people who can hold it for you until you have it yourself. And, and those of us that have it need to be giving it everywhere we are. You know, I feel it even when I'm out shopping and I'm at the checkout, what can I say or

[00:42:45] do for this person that if, if they are in a place of with, without hope or, or, or feeling negative about themselves, what can I say in this situation that might bring them some hope? Yeah. I had a, a moment of that yesterday. We had a Amazon delivering on a Sunday and, uh, I'm just, I didn't show the guy any hope. I just, uh, I asked him if he was getting off soon and wished him the best of the day.

[00:43:14] Cause I don't think a lot of people give those guys the time of day. Right. Um, so, um, yeah, be your child's hope. Yes. Yes. That's, uh, that, that, that, that's what I'm saying. That's what we're going to call this episode. Yeah. I like it. Thank you, Cindy. And thank you listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.