In The Likeness Of God With Amber Knowles

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of The Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Amber. Amber Knowles, really looking forward to our conversation today. It's like it was July last time we spoke. I know you've been going through a change. I think so. Yeah, yeah. Lots going on. I think I said this yesterday. So ladies and gentlemen, Amber runs the Rootside Project down in Houston, Texas.

[00:00:30] And there's like we have so many guests on the podcast from Texas and I don't know what it is. It's like a hotbed. I mean, I know it's a really big state. It's a big state, so it makes sense. It's also a great state. I mean, I have to throw that in there as a Texan. That we have to promote, you know, as we do. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I live in the kind of the biggest state in the UK, I think.

[00:00:58] It depends which way you can. So yeah, but we like to promote our state as well. Yeah, you should. Yorkshire, yeah. We've got to do that. Yeah, but you've got the flag. The Lone Star of Texas is the flag. Is that right? Yeah, I think I should know all of those things. Yes. We have a white, I think we have a white rose for Yorkshire. Okay.

[00:01:27] Back in the day, the war between the war of the roses was Lancashire, which is the red roses, right? And the white roses of Yorkshire. Anyway, this is... I love it. Yeah. Getting to know a little bit of history. Yeah. Let's talk, Thrymy. So for you listeners, as well as leading the Rootside project, which does some

[00:01:48] great work in fostering an adoption space. And there's also a mum to four, two, two through adoption from foster care, if I remember correctly.

[00:01:58] And so that beautiful richness of experience, not only the personal experience, but then the perspective that comes from so much work in that space and professional experience.

[00:02:18] So the big question that we'd like to start with off with, Amber, in terms of your take on what thriving or what thriving means to you as a mum, as a leader, as a human being, as broad as you like. Yeah. What does thriving mean for me? That's such a heavy question right off the bat.

[00:02:42] Yeah. I've been thinking a lot about being able to hold things in tension as a big part of thriving. What does it look like to live in the world? But, you know, we hear all these different tensions living in the world, but not of the world, right? In the church space. We are living in the tension of mercy and justice. Like, I think that there's this kind of, someone was talking recently about, you know, the tension between being girl boss and trad wife.

[00:03:11] You know, like there's just all these polarized ideas out in the world of you need to be all this or you need to be all that. As a parent, you need to be fully present and also give them independence, you know. And somehow I really lately have been thinking about how we are cultivated by living in the tensions of all of those things.

[00:03:34] Maybe it's wisdom that comes from being able to figure out what that tension and balance is, or maybe there's not a perfect balance, but we're always kind of letting go of one thing and holding on to another. And it just takes a lot of discernment. And so I think maybe thriving is, is being content and being, finding joy, even in the midst of those imbalance or seeming imbalances, right?

[00:03:58] And living in those tensions of imperfections in the world, the hard struggle, but the joy that comes with it. But my best guess would be for me that thriving is, is being able to live in that and also still find joy and contentment. Which I think is really, really challenging to do when you're raising kids and a nonprofit and, and have a front row seat to the struggles of the world. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:27] Yeah. Um, the, we, you sent contentment a couple of times, uh, or content and content. Uh, when I hear that, I think of, uh, a, a, a favorite saying of one of my mentors, which is, uh, contentment is the, uh, no, between the high tide of happiness and the low tide of sadness is, is a big C called contentment.

[00:04:58] Mm-hmm. Something, something, something along those lines. Um, so the, the emotional rollercoaster is, is, is full of ups and downs as the, and the, uh, the contentment is a line somewhat closer to the middle perhaps. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe it's not as dependent upon the circumstances that we're in. Uh, I'm sure, you know, it definitely, whether we're walking in a season of joy or a season of sorrow,

[00:05:27] I think, um, those circumstances don't necessarily force whether you have contentment or not. It's, it's more so of an ability to be kind of cultivated by cultivate, cultivated by them and sitting in them and still, you know, fighting for rest and joy.

[00:05:47] Um, whether you're on the high, high mountain or the, the low, low, low valley. So I don't know. It's something I'm, I'm having to preach to myself, um, in moments where things are, are busy and they feel chaotic and I don't do well with chaos. Yeah. So I like things to be calm and it's hard to do. So fighting for that is, um, yeah, I think maybe the road to thriving or, or whatever thriving actually means. Yeah. Um. Means, I don't know. Uh, grateful. It's a journey.

[00:06:17] Grateful, grateful for the highs and graceful in the lows is another one that I've heard when I, I spent a lot of time looking at that emotional rollercoaster. And the whole question of circumstances and to what extent they, um, if, if any, they cause, uh, feelings. Yeah. That's a real fascination of mine.

[00:06:46] Because some people, some people would say that we're living in the feeling of our thinking, not the feeling of our circumstances. Yeah. I think that's really good. And another aspect of it, I think is searching for ways to express gratitude or at least, um, find ways or things to be grateful for, even in the midst of, you know, maybe a low season or a season of sorrow or a season of chaos.

[00:07:16] But I think that's sometimes really grounding for, at least for me to, to be aware of what is it that I'm actually really grateful for in this season, despite, like you said, the circumstances, despite the feelings of being pulled in many directions. Are there things that I can, when I, when I stop and I think, well, yes, it's chaotic and yes, there's a lot to do. And yes, this is hard work. Um, but I have all these things in my life that I am overwhelmingly grateful for.

[00:07:46] It kind of grounds you in the midst of kind of the, all the waves pushing you in different directions. Yeah. Is it that outcome? Is it that alchemy thing where, where we, where, where our mess becomes our message, where, where the SH1T that we've been through becomes the manure that we use to help us grow?

[00:08:12] Yeah. Yeah. I'm giving too many, I'm dropping too much of my own stuff in here. Um, no, I like it. It's helpful. Yeah. Cause this, this is, this, this is my, uh, passion, my space. Yeah. I, I worked for, uh, prior to doing what I do now, I, I previously worked as a nurse practitioner and prior to that worked as a nurse in my early, early twenties, right out of college.

[00:08:39] I worked as a nurse in pediatric oncology, um, for about seven years. And I think often about just, it seems forever ago in a different lifetime, but I do think that there was something really formative for me in watching families walk through kids having cancer.

[00:08:58] You know, I think I, I, I, like I said, it seems like a long time ago, but I do think a lot of what we do now and being able to walk through hard things has been cultivated also through watching people in those kinds of circumstances, still fight for joy and, and fighting for even contentment in the midst of a horrendous tragedy.

[00:09:20] And, and crazy, you know, questions about life and all those things. So I do think that there's, uh, we learn that from the experiences of others around us also, you know, and it can be really, really formative. Yeah. From, from giving us a broader perspective, um, I guess, is that what it's, what it's about? Like, it puts, it puts our stuff into perspective.

[00:09:46] Like we've seen people go through that, um, devastating place, space journey. Yep. And, and so our own troubles don't seem too bad in, in comparison. Maybe. I mean, I think for a long time, I, you know, when I would go through a hard season and I would kind of always have in the back of my mind, well, at least I'm not, you know,

[00:10:14] my kids are healthy and all those things. Well, at least this, or well, at least that. And I definitely think it gives perspective and it's important to think about that. But I, I also, somebody also said, it's true that it's not that, but you can still feel the hard, like you can still say this, this season of life is really hard, whether I'm struggling with kid behaviors or their grief, you know, walking through that with them.

[00:10:37] And that's just really, really hard to hold and to watch your child struggle with grief over something you can't control and you can't fix for them. That's really, really hard. It's not childhood cancer, but it's still really, really hard. And so I've, I've had to kind of try to find the balance of having that perspective and, and recognizing that, yes, it's not childhood cancer.

[00:10:59] Um, but it's still really, really hard and that's very, very real. And so, um, yeah, I think even there, even that there's balance in being able to recognize the perspective and then also be okay with the fact that it's hard. And I can, I can say that it's hard without, um, you know, it not being the, the heart. Yeah. It is the most imaginable tragedy of life. Right. Yeah.

[00:11:26] And we're, we're in danger of kind of comparing hardness, aren't we? We're comparing the, the, the, the trickiness and the, the, and the devastation part, um, which is, yeah, that comparisonitis isn't, isn't great. Um, can I, can I take you back to the, what you talked about being the, the, um, the religious act is really a faith-based organization, right?

[00:11:52] Um, can I take you back to that, uh, that thing that you said about being in the world, but not of the world? Um, cause I, I'd love to hear your take on that.

[00:12:05] And, uh, and I, and I think one of the reasons that I'd love to hear you, you take on that is that often when we look at, you know, when we talk about grief and loss and, uh, and, uh, the, the, uh, the, the, the, the, the beauty, the, the duality of grief and beauty and, uh, holding those two things together within the adoption space.

[00:12:30] We often think about psychology and the psychologists, you know, a lot of trauma is about psychology and, and, and yet the, one of the themes that's, that keeps on coming back to me from doing the podcast is that the spirituality side of this is,

[00:12:55] it's actually more, more powerful than the psychology side. Interesting. So, yeah, when you say being in the world, but not of the world, what, what does that, what does that mean? Yeah. I mean, I think it reminds me a bit of, you know, I think it's in Corinthians where Paul is talking about, you know, being struck down, but not destroyed.

[00:13:21] We, um, you know, he goes through a whole list of different ways that we experienced the world, but we're not, um, we're not overcome by what the world is, how we're impacted by the world. Right. We're still seeing and are experiencing the same things that every human on earth is experiencing. We experienced the grief, we experienced the brokenness, we experienced all of these things, but there's a perspective as a Christian that, you know,

[00:13:50] Christ has overcome the world. And so that therefore our perspective on, on who we are and how we respond to the sorrow and the grief and the tragedies. Um, but also our role in it, I think is really important that I actually have a job to do and, and that I'm actually here doing these things for a reason. And I'm in many ways partnering with him and ushering light into the dark places.

[00:14:19] And that just, it shifts, you know, like we are, we are located here. We are, we are a part of the world in many ways. And, um, we are interacting with others who are, you know, I believe made in the image of the same God. Um, but we are not impacted maybe the same way because we see a different trajectory of the world. Um, and yeah, I, I mean, I, I think that there's that for me, at least it, it changes the way I work.

[00:14:48] It changes the way that I see, um, hopefully have more of an eternal perspective of the world and what's possible. Yeah. Sometimes to a fault, I think maybe, I don't know if I would say to a fault, but, um, yeah, I keep fighting for the, the belief that one day things really will be made new. And, and I get to be a part of making that happen in some small, seemingly insignificant way.

[00:15:16] Is, is this about, uh, or sorry, our, it's about your relationship with adversity? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think so. I think a lot of it is, um, like I said, having an experience of, I mean, I, I think recently I was talking to somebody and I, I was saying, I don't know why for whatever reason, it seems like the Lord has always put me in and asked me to do things that are really hard.

[00:15:44] Um, you know, working with childhood cancer for many years and working in now in foster care and, and, um, adopting through foster care. And it just seems like, why are we doing this? You know, you have this perspective sometimes of like, why do we keep doing this to ourselves? My husband was in the Navy. Um, he's a priest now. Um, you know, it's just, it seems to be that the, the things that we've chosen for our life are not by any means the easy, comfortable things.

[00:16:12] And there are moments where it feels overwhelming and you're like, why did we choose this? And the reality is when I really think about it, I didn't, I didn't really choose it. I've hopefully, um, been faithful to the next step that he's put in front of me and, and been willing to imperfectly step into whatever that is. Um, and hopefully bring some hope and healing in the midst of it. Yeah.

[00:16:38] So a few things were going through my head as I listened to you there, um, about test, testing you in, uh, in, or was one of the kind of ideas that I had. Um, another idea that I had was about, was actually about help, helping you see your resilience for yourself. Yeah.

[00:17:06] So, you know, people, people say, well, you know, if you're going through tough stuff, keep going. Right. So it, it, it, it's, uh, uh, the, the, the, being in those environments has helped you see your strengths and resilience. Uh, I think, I think resilience for me is a seeing thing.

[00:17:32] It's not like most people think about resilience as it's something like you go down to the, it's like going to the gym and building muscles. Right. And people say, well, there's all these analogies. Well, you know, you have to, you have to break the muscles to make the new ones bigger. Right. All this stuff. And it's going to take you a lot of time and da, da, da, da, da, da. And so people riff on that, you know, in terms of, you know, what resilience is all about. Well, to me, it's more of a seeing thing. It's not a doing thing. It's not a working out thing.

[00:18:02] It's a realization. It's a insight or to use a, to use a biblical word, it would be an epiphany, right? Seeing your own resilience. Appreciating. Appreciating would be another way of saying it. Something that you see in a moment rather than have to build over, over years. Yeah. And maybe it's a little bit of, of both. It's recognizing that I've been created and made in such a way that I, I can be resilient,

[00:18:31] but there is a doing, it makes me think of, you know, the scripture about building your house on the sand versus building your house on the rock. Right. Cause it, when the storms come, you know, that the thing, you know, the house is built on the sand is going to fall away, but the thing that is built on the rock will not. And, and some of that is like, there's a reality and a recognition of, of what's necessary there, but there's a doing too, you know, there's a creating a foundation that's stable.

[00:18:59] There is that part of it that's cultivated often over time. It's not just, we decide one day that we're going to be stable, but it's putting the right foundation in place. And sometimes that requires pruning and sometimes that requires, you know, lots of different things, but there is a perspective of when you have those things in place that, you are, you know, there's a recognition of, okay, I've, I've, there is a foundation here. And when the storms come, I am able to withstand it, you know?

[00:19:29] So maybe it's, maybe it's a little bit of both. Yeah. I like that for me to, to riff on the metaphor. It's almost as if the, the realization is, is, is seeing, seeing the stone rather than the land. And, and so that's, that's the, that's the appreciation. That's the realization. That's the seeing thing.

[00:19:52] And then the, the building of the house is easier when you know that you're building on, on, on stone and, and, and the house will endure the, uh, I don't use, I've never used this word before. It's a great word, vicissitudes, vicissitudes, right? Vicissitudes. Vicissitudes, yeah. So you can stand it. Um, so, uh, so we're talking faith here, right?

[00:20:21] And, and, and, and I'm, I'm, I'm guessing that faith is a big part of your strength. Is it the, is it, is it the rock that you're building from? Yeah. I mean, as a, as a Christian, the rock is, is Christ, right? It's not, it's not my own, my own strength. It's, it's what's been provided for me, you know? Um, and, and I think that's where the analogy, the biblical analogy there is we can, we can

[00:20:48] build and there's a, there's a responsibility to build and to cultivate, but to know the foundation on which those things is built could be the things that pass away and all the things that shift and all the things that will, will are long, not, not eternal or long lasting, the things that will fade away, or, you know, I can build and cultivate and do all of those things, but on top of a foundation, that's sure. Um, and never changing and not moving in stronger than anything that I could build. Right.

[00:21:16] Um, and I think that that, that perspective is, um, interwoven, I think in a lot of what the Riverside has, Riverside project has become. Um, I mean, early on when we started the organization, when I started the organization, it was in the midst of, you know, I felt like God had kind of given me this perspective on, on what was happening in the foster care system. And I started talking to different people and I had this kind of burning thing within me

[00:21:44] and my bones that something needed to happen, but I also had four little bitty kids and well, three at the time, and then was handed a fourth unexpectedly and was like, I don't know how I'll do this. And, um, I don't know how this would even happen. I don't have any, I don't know how to run a nonprofit. I don't know how to do any of these things. Um, and the, the feeding of the 5,000 kind of story from scripture kept coming to my mind and, and being reminded that I'm not expected to have it all.

[00:22:12] I'm just expected to kind of bring the basket of limited fish and loaves and he's the one that multiplies it. And so that gave me a different perspective of like, I don't have to be the one who, who makes all of the fruit grow. It's like a garden analogy too. Again, we use that a lot that we can toil and we can plant and we can do all the things, but we have to wait for the rain to come if we think fruit's going to happen. And so there is this perspective of both working really, really hard and doing the work that's

[00:22:42] in front of us. While also, like we said at the beginning, kind of knowing that it's on a foundation that is sure and that kind of partnering in the world, um, to do something eternal that I cannot accomplish on my own. If that makes sense. Yeah. It feels like we're going back in a good way to the, in the world, but not of the world. Yeah. Right.

[00:23:06] The stuff that's in the world is, uh, is passing, is transitory, um, you know, earth to earth, ashes. And then, but the stuff that's, uh, not of the, of the world is the eternal side. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, I think sometimes keeping our eyes on the glimpses of, um, that we are able to experience and see that kind of keep us going, you know, um, when we get to see healing

[00:23:35] come from dark places and we get to be a part of that in some way. Um, and we start to see a little bit of the fruit that comes in different seasons, especially when we get to do it with other people around us, it, it kind of keeps us going, right? It reminds us of the reality that is, um, we don't often see, um, when we're in the world, but it, yeah, it reminds us of that eternal kind of perspective that we actually can see

[00:24:01] heaven entering into earth and some very, sometimes very, very small ways, um, for the, you know, the biological mom who's able to get her kids back and become stable. And, you know, the grandparents who are able to, um, you know, they take in several of their grandkids and they're struggling, you know, and they don't know how they're going to do it. And, and we can, you can enter in and see that, or the youth who's aging out of foster care, who has been institutionalized their whole life and, you know, is able to find

[00:24:29] hope and healing through relationships, you know, and move into adulthood and be successful. Like those are things that on paper in the world are not necessarily supposed to happen, right? They're actually really, you know, little miracles that we get to see. Um, I think for me, at least, and I think for a lot of our team, that's kind of what keeps us going, um, when we get to experience that. Yeah. What, what does healing mean to you?

[00:24:57] What does healing mean? I don't know if I could put a specific definition for healing. Um, yeah, I feel like a lot of people would have different perspectives on that, um, exactly what that means. Um, same as that's why I asked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Which one would be different? Yeah.

[00:25:23] Um, when there's a book that I read that I, I have recommended it just so, so many people. It's probably my favorite book. Um, it's called in the likeness of God. Um, it's written by Dr. Paul Brand alongside, I think it was Philip Yancey that wrote it with him, but it's mostly Dr. Paul Brand. He was a, um, a physician who worked in most of his life in India, working with leprosy patients. Um, he died just a few years ago, I believe.

[00:25:49] And, um, he wrote a book, he's written another book called, um, the gift of pain. Um, and he has an interesting perspective because he working with leprosy patients, what happens when you have leprosy is you, your pain receptors, you know, you, you are gone essentially. And so much of the, um, the struggle and the thing that will eventually kill or maim, you know, someone with leprosy is not necessarily the bacteria itself. It's the fact that they can't feel pain. That pain is actually a warning sign.

[00:26:19] Pain is a, um, actually a gift. Um, and when we don't have that, you stub your toe and you don't realize what you've done and you keep walking on it and it actually ends up causing disastrous things. So he has this interesting perspective and in the likeness of God, he actually has analogy. Um, he goes through every kind of system of the human body and shows kind of the analogy of the body of Christ within each system, which from a medical perspective, of course, um, I found it really, really fascinating, but, um, it makes me, your question about healing

[00:26:48] makes me, it's an interesting one. When you think about, you would think that healing is, you know, being free from pain. Um, and maybe eternally that's what it, that, what that is. But maybe it's more like we talked about before about perspective, um, that healing is, um, being able to take the totality of our circumstances, both good and bad and seeing the eternal fruit that comes from it. Um, even the things that have been really painful. Um, I don't know, that's such a fascinating question.

[00:27:17] That's gonna, I'm gonna be thinking about that for a while. I mean, you've, you've used, used the words, um, realization and seeing and perspective and glimpsing, um, quite a lot. And, um, that's, I kind of would expect that from a leader because leaders are more visually minded, right? They're more visually driven, less auditory, less kinesthetic, usually, right?

[00:27:44] Um, and, you know, when people speak, I have a fascination around, around this space, right? Because, you know, you've, we've heard that thing that time is the greatest healer. Um, and some of, you know, I don't think that it, if there's no change over that time, then there's no healing. Sure. So healing has to be for me, something about the change that happens over that time,

[00:28:13] rather than the passing of time itself, right? Um, so time isn't the greatest healer. And, uh, um, my take on what is the greatest healer, if time isn't, is, is glimpses, insights, epiphanies, shifts in perspective. Hmm. Mm-hmm. They're all kind of synonyms for the same thing.

[00:28:39] So, you know, epiphanies to use a, like an epiphany is bigger than insight. Yeah. Uh, yeah. And, and, and a little bit bigger than an aha moment, right? You know, then you've got a eureka moment. They're all, they're all saying, they're, they're all describing the same thing. A shift in our perspective. Mm-hmm. A new perspective came to me. Then I realized something that I hadn't seen before. Yeah.

[00:29:07] Um, and, and, and that for me, that is, those are what, what, what are the greatest healers? And for me, the, the, the, the greatest healing of all is seeing that we're whole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was thinking like wholeness. Um, what is it, uh, there's a wholeness to us and, and even going back to kind of a biblical

[00:29:37] kind of scriptural reference, I'm thinking of, you know, the, um, you know, the, the paralytic, you know, and, and Jesus says like, which is, which is greater that I can tell him to get up and walk or that I could say his sins are forgiven, you know, that, that there is, he's kind of getting at this perspective that there is physical healing and being made new physically. And then it goes back to kind of that temporary and the eternal.

[00:30:01] Um, having, having rightness with God, um, and a wholeness in that, in that relationship as a person, as a human being, um, is quite different. Um, but similar to, you know, just physical healing. And, and I, you know, have a number of friends who, um, you know, have been walking through cancer. I have a friend who is, you know, younger than me, who is walking through ALS, um, you know,

[00:30:30] and, and I've prayed fervently for healing and, and also with that perspective of what is, what does healing mean in this, you know, what is, what does that look like and what am I asking for? And, uh, you know, uh, you know, all of those things that come when, when you're walking through that with somebody, but, um, yeah. Yeah. Have you heard anything? Have you read it? I heard of a book called Anita. Sorry. It's called, um, Dying to be Me by a lady called Anita Morjani.

[00:31:00] Have you come across that? No. It's, um, it's a great book. It's about her near death experience, um, and a spontaneous healing from cancer. Yeah. Um, and it explains, well, it, it tracks the story. It tracks the story of that recovery from, uh, and, and the special moment, uh, when she

[00:31:28] was aware of what was going on, her stage four cancer, she was on the way out and, and then, and then she wasn't. Hmm. Uh, and it's, uh, incredible, incredibly powerful story, especially as an audio book, right? You know, cause she's reading, she's reading it, you know? Yeah. I'll check it out. Yeah.

[00:31:52] Uh, it, it, it, it's, it, it's the biggest epiphany that, the, the, the, the reason I guess I'm talking about it is it's the biggest epiphany that I've read about or heard about in terms of a, and, and, and a turnaround, you know, a, a turnaround and, and, and the moment at which she, she, she bounced back. Yeah. Right.

[00:32:20] Um, it, it's, it, it's the, the, and then the healing continued, but she was, she was, you know, to, if, to put it in biblical, biblical term, she was at the gates. Yeah. And she went back. Um, and, uh, and people that, yeah. People that go through that, uh, have, uh, have an incredible tale to tell.

[00:32:50] And I had a, uh, a friend of mine, an American, uh, adoptee who I know called Jude Hung. Um, um, she guest hosted, uh, a couple of years ago. And I said, well, just, she was saying to me, she said to me, oh, I'm thinking of, um, starting my own podcast. I said, well, why don't you give it a go? Right. Why don't you give it a go? Come on my podcast and be a guest host.

[00:33:19] Um, and, um, invite some people that you want to come on and you can do it. And then you don't need to set anything up. You can just kind of try and try it outside. And she interviewed, so one of the guys that she, um, she, she interviewed some people that she knew from her community, some adoptees that she knew, but she also reached out to a guy called Eben Alexander, who's a neuroscientist who had, uh, like Anita Morjani had a, a, um, a near death, near death experience.

[00:33:48] And, and Eben Alexander is also an adoptee. So, you know, um, it was incredible, incredible turnaround story, but it, it, it, it's, uh, it's indescribable that, um, uh, the, the, the, but the, it's indescribable the journey that he, he, that he, he went through.

[00:34:13] Um, but you know, he was on a, he was in a different space and that, that experience coming back from that near death experience also brought some, uh, some adoption trauma stuff to, to the, out of his subconscious into his conscious and then healed it.

[00:34:37] So there was, there was some physical healing and then there was some spiritual, psychological, emotional healing. It was all of those things all wrapped into one. So it's a powerful, a hell of a powerful story. I've always thought about, you know, when I was younger and working with, with kids with cancer, you know, I used to go to a coffee shop before I go into the hospital and just kind of read

[00:35:04] through the scriptures before, cause it was just one of those jobs where like, I was desperate, um, to, to ensure that I was kind of grounded, um, and a perspective, you know, as we've already talked about. Um, and I remember reading through John and reading through some of the gospels of all these different miracles that were happening. And, and then I'd go to work and I'd see these kids and I'm praying for miracles and, you know, just asking like, you know, why would, why did these happen?

[00:35:34] Does this still happen? Should I be, you know, can I pray for these big things to happen and, and for healing? And one of the things that I, I noticed, um, was that in the scriptures, at least biblically, all of the physical healings always pointed to something spiritual. You know, all of the cases of, of physical healing didn't just end with the physical. It always pointed to something deeper or something more eternal and more spiritual.

[00:36:04] There was just always this kind of turning to, yes, I can do these things, but I'm doing this to, to show something, um, you know, and I've seen, you know, a few circumstances like that, even in, in my own life, you know, of just different situations where, um, he uses that type of thing for a broader purpose than just to bring somebody back. And I think that's what you're saying with, um, with, with him, that it was, he, he, he

[00:36:33] physically healed, um, but use that healing to actually heal more, um, more of ourselves and more of kind of that, that idea of wholeness. Yeah. Um, not just the physical, but different aspects of life. Yes. I love that. Um, so I was talking about wholeness with, uh, uh, a W in front of it. Right.

[00:36:57] Um, uh, and what you're talking about now by linking the two things together, you're talking about holistic, just starting with an H, right? So people would go, um, I guess, body, mind and spirit. Maybe. Yeah. Um, or, or body, mind, heart and spirit, you know, like, but the, the entirety. Yeah. Right.

[00:37:27] And for me, the, the, the kind of the, the, the spiritual side really has far more power than the psychological side. For, for, for my own. Yeah. On my own healing journey. It's. Yeah.

[00:37:53] And, and a lot of people that I've interviewed, the spiritual side has been far more powerful. I think, I don't think that they interact. Right. I, you know, I, I think, I don't know that you can fully separate, you know, even, you know, I think it's easy in our, our minds to, to try and say, well, this is the physical and this is our spiritual and this is the psychological. And we try to treat them that way. I mean, I've worked in medicine and I see it all the time, you know, that for physical healing, we do this and that.

[00:38:22] And for, you know, psychological treatment, we do this and that. And for spiritual, go find a priest and pray, you know, not realizing that all are really intertwined, that we were created, you know, with all of not, not as complete silos, but these, you know, beautifully interconnected and intertwined areas and facets of our bodies. And I don't think that, I mean, I think even sometimes within the church, you know,

[00:38:48] we want to focus fully on the spiritual and sometimes don't recognize that there are also psychological things that, you know, require treatment too. And so it's easy, you know, based on where we're, what our experience is in or what we feel most comfortable with focusing on that one facet without realizing how much it does intertwine and intermix. Yeah.

[00:39:12] There's a metaphor coming to me of a, I'm not sure whether it's, you know, when you get a latte macchiato coffee and it's in the, it's in the different layers. Yeah. So, but, but it's all, but then, but we experience it, we stir it up.

[00:39:40] So it, it, to, to look at it in the layers is artificial. Actually, we drink, we're going to stir the whole thing up and drink the whole thing. Yeah. And maybe that's what, you know, when you get back to just the original question of what is, what is thriving? What is, what does it mean to flourish as a human being? And it's, you know, it's, it's finding heal or having healing or, you know, being able to, to thrive in all of those aspects of life.

[00:40:08] Not just, you know, physical, but, but all of them mixed together, you know, they all have to be a part of it to, to really flourish and thrive as a, as a person. So balance, is it balance? No, maybe. Um, yeah, I don't know. Balance has been such a strange, I think, word lately. Um, I read, I was talking about this with someone yesterday.

[00:40:38] There's, there is an article that I, I read, um, kind of go back to every, every year. And it's this, it's written by a professor at Baylor. Um, and she's working with lots of women who are, um, you know, really, um, really smart, really, um, have a lot of plans for their future. And yet they also want to have a family. And so they're trying to balance, right. These two warring tensions.

[00:41:05] It kind of goes back to that, what I said before of like, there's the people who are full on girl boss. And then there's the big movement towards like trad wife, go traditional, do all the things, stay at home. And I think as a mom, who's also, you know, I have four kids and I'm also running a nonprofit and, and, uh, there's always this idea of like trying to find a balance. What does balance look like? And how do I balance those two tensions of how I'm needed at work and how I'm needed at home?

[00:41:31] And the article really kind of in a, in a strange way, um, basically says like, there isn't, the whole thing is called no happy harmony. There's just not going to be a perfect balance to that. Um, you're always going to be pulled in one direction more than others. And you're gonna have to let go a little bit of one side in some seasons and then pull back. And maybe what we're talking about with balance is like discernment, you know, um, to know

[00:41:58] where do I need to, to spend, I only have the 24 hours in a day. I only have a certain amount of allotted energy and I only have a certain amount of, you know, money in my bank account and all the things that I wake up with every day. And I have to steward those towards the things I'm responsible for and the things that are in front of me. And some days it's going to look different and that balance is going to feel off. And so I'm going to have to recognize that and discern and know how to adjust, you know,

[00:42:24] and maybe that, I think a lot of us out in the world are looking for a perfect balance to a lot of these different things that we hold intention. And I don't know if that's actually a thing, you know, I don't know that that's actually ever achievable. I, I don't, I don't think it's a, I don't think it's achievable either. I think it's something that's paddled. It's something that's sold, you know, you're, you're feeling out of balance.

[00:42:53] I used to feel like you until I found this and now I've got my balance. And if you spend this time or this money with me, then you too will have the balance that you so desperately crave, you know? Yeah. Five steps to a healthy balance. Five steps to a healthy balance. Yeah. So yeah, I sent us down a, a bit of a, a, a wrong turn there, I think with, with the balance.

[00:43:23] No, I think it's, it's, I think it's an important thing. It's been something I've been thinking a lot about and, and I come across, especially with female leaders that are out there. I feel like I'm constantly sharing about that because it was so helpful for me to, to recognize and to, to real realize that it's, it's not going to be perfect and it requires wisdom and, and discernment along the way. And that's okay. You know, it's okay to struggle with that because it's inherently always going to be a little bit of a struggle. So. Yeah.

[00:43:54] Yeah. Those, those things that are, those things that are, those things that aren't things, balance is a thing that there is, that isn't a thing, right? It's, it's a, it's a concept. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, something that's sold, you know?

[00:44:17] Um, I think realizing that it's not a thing is a relief. If, you know, like if, if, if we're, if we're, um, if we're searching for the unfindable, then we're going to be searching for a long time.

[00:44:46] But if we realize, you know, like people, people say, I didn't even realize it had become a thing. Well, not, no, it's not a thing. It's like, I, it, it, it's a shorthand for describing things. I, I'm thinking, I'm, I'm doing a, I'm chairing a panel, uh, at a conference in a couple of weeks. And, and, uh, the person that is the, so the, one of the people on the panel will have

[00:45:12] been doing a session before and it's on compassion, compassion fatigue. Uh, and I think, could you, as a mentor of mine says, could you put that in a wheelbarrow? Could you, is it a thing? Could you put balance in a wheelbarrow? Could you put compassion fatigue in? Well, compassion fatigue.

[00:45:37] And we kind of like, we, we make it a thing that, you know, we, we, we make a feeling a thing and, and suddenly it takes on a life of its own or yeah, I got that. Right. Well, feeling kind of feeling, we all feel tired sometimes, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, to, to go on another, you know, throw something big into the mix is when we

[00:46:06] don't feel that thing or feel like it's impossible to achieve because we keep running after it. The, the biggest kind of emotion that we feel, I think is shame and failure. And I think that's why with, as a, as a female leader and with, you know, that balance of getting it right. Like if I'm still, if I'm continually looking for that, that balance, as you say, you know, just this thing that's not actually achievable.

[00:46:32] Every time I feel like everyone around me has figured this out and I'm still really struggling with it. Then there's feelings of shame of like, what am I doing? Why am I not good enough? Why can't I find this so-called balance that people are trying, you know, are achieving? And the reality is being able to say that's not possible.

[00:46:52] And it's not even the goal, you know, it's being faithful to the thing that's in front of me today with the things that I have to steward them as best I can, you know, and to make the adjustment that I need and to press in and depend on the Lord and to discern what I need. Yeah. That's the cultivation, I think, of wisdom.

[00:47:15] And that's, I think, the goal should be, I mean, hopefully is the goal rather than achieving some sort of balance that doesn't exist. You know, I think it just disarms, I think. And I see when I talk to other women about it, it just kind of like lets people, oh, yeah, you're right. Like it's not actually achievable and I need to stop kind of grasping for it and, you know, breathe and take the day as it comes, you know.

[00:47:46] So is discernment more about kind of what I do next? Maybe. Or what I do today? Yeah. I often come back to the idea of stewardship, right? I have, I wake up every day with a certain amount allotted to me. Many of those things are the same as everyone else gets, you know, and everyone has a different, you know, different things to steward that day.

[00:48:14] And different responsibilities and ways to do it and different gifts to use. And, you know, going back to another biblical reference, it's, you know, the parable of the talents. You know, he gives those things to his servants and he says, go and do with these. You know, and there's the one guy that buries it and there's the other, you know, that comes back with five and the other guy comes back with ten. And there's a stewardship element of I've given this to you, whether it's your intellect or your gifting or your the relationships that you have.

[00:48:41] And, you know, the children that you have been given and the husband that your wife that you've been given. And, you know, I've given you these things now go and do, you know, and that's going to look different every day. But I've been given these things to steward and I don't always do that perfectly. And but we're kind of doing the best with what he's given us and asking for him to make and create fruit from it. I think a lot about that with child rearing.

[00:49:08] You know, it's the things we don't see a lot of fruit early on, but we're still stewarding those things, still planting them in the ground and watering them and. And tending to them in the hopes that he will bring fruit from it. And so maybe it's more of a stewardship of what do I have today to be used and to be cultivated and letting each day, you know, kind of take care of itself. And that's so much easier said than done.

[00:49:38] But, you know, I think often it's easy to be discouraged with all that's still out there to do and all the things that we feel like are not working the way we want them to. But yeah, yeah, I think it's more stewardship to me. Yeah. When you said the word discouragement, I was thinking about the. The. Earlier on in the conversation, I was I was thinking about the.

[00:50:09] The idea of being discouragement proof. Or and then as soon as I thought about that, I thought, well, no, that's making it a thing again. That's like balance. It's more like, you know, it's more than like realizing that sometimes you're going to stop rather than keeping on going.

[00:50:30] I something often happens to me when I'm I reach a I reach a barrier or I or I or I see it. I see an obstacle. Something seems. Kind of something seems impossible. So I'll give up. I'll give up for a couple of hours. Or I'll give up on it overnight.

[00:51:02] And then the solution will pop up. But I didn't keep battling when I didn't keep battling. I didn't I didn't keep going when I didn't know. I didn't keep doing when I didn't know what to do. That was a bit that was a bit convoluted, wasn't it? I didn't answer that. Well, that's interesting. That's a it's I mean, I think there's wisdom in that. Right.

[00:51:29] To to wait for for guidance and wait for clarity before continuing to run in a direction that you're not you're not sure of. Right. Yeah. But kind of giving up on it creates the space for the solution to pop in. You know, like we say, you know, like we say, oh, I'm racking my brains. I can't remember the name of a movie or, you know, what it's me. Yeah. We're racking our brains. We can't we can't remember.

[00:51:58] We can't remember it. And then and then we put it on the back burner and then it comes straight to us because the answer is not in that. Well, it's not in that short term part of our brain. It's not in our ram or whatever the words people. It's not in that front of our brain. It's at the back and then it's going to come forward if we kind of. Yeah. Stop spinning the wheels. It's interesting that you maybe it's a British thing, but it's interesting.

[00:52:27] I found it interesting you were saying giving up on it because it kind of gives it a negative spin that I'm giving up on this or I'm, you know, I'm quitting, you know. And of course, maybe it's just in the American mind, you know, it's like we never give up, you know. But it's I think. I would say giving space to it or giving it space to kind of breathe, you know, rather than kind of the idea. I just felt like it was interesting that you said I'm giving up on this. And to me, I was like, oh, you're not giving up on that.

[00:52:56] You know, you're obviously going to go back to it. But yeah, I just thought that was interesting. An interesting way to phrase that. As I was thinking about and I murdered the sentences, the conversation. I was thinking about Leap. So you heard as Jack Reacher guy, you know, the fictitious character. A little bit. Yeah. Vaguely.

[00:53:23] He's he's a he's a ex military policeman in the States. He's he was major Jack Reacher in. He started off. I think he started off from Marines and then went into to military police. But he's a he's a character. He's an American character written by a British author.

[00:53:49] And when Jack Reacher doesn't know what to do, he puts it on the back burner. And then the idea pops into his head. So so you're saying it's in. I use the word giving up. You said that's English. It's English word. Americans never do it. I did that. And then it wouldn't be. Thought that way. But then I thought about an English guy who wrote about a. Yeah.

[00:54:18] An American thinking of. Yeah. Of this stuff. It's fascinating. But I'm thinking about the next step. Right. The Indiana Jones. The Indiana Jones. One of the first movies. Temple of Doom. Whatever. That they're looking to cross this cavern. Or the cross. There's a chasm. Yeah. They're looking to cross a chasm.

[00:54:47] And the stepping stones appear. Each time. Yeah. Like just one at a time. Yeah. Until you sit on. Until you stand on the first one. The second one doesn't appear. They're not. They're not all there. Yeah. And to me. That's next step. Next step. What do I do next? Discernment. All that. Yeah. Those were all metaphors and stories that came to me about. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:55:14] I think we often want a spotlight to kind of be shown out in front. So we can see far into the distance. And rather than that. I think the Lord often just gives us enough to see our next step. You know. That may not be 100% of the time. But it has been mostly with me. You know. Over the years of what's the next thing in front of me. And how do I seek to be faithful in that? Yeah.

[00:55:44] That could just be the name of the episode. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anything else you'd like to share? I don't think so. I think we kind of covered. We covered a lot. We covered a lot. I feel like I've been in a therapy session. And I kind of enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:56:10] Sometimes taking time to stop and think about these types of things. Yeah. It can be really encouraging. So I'm grateful for the conversation. Me too. Me too. Hope you've enjoyed it too, listeners. If you've been listening an hour, right? You must have enjoyed it. So the ones that didn't like it tuned out earlier. So thank you, Amber. And thank you, listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care. Bye-bye.