More Than Psychology With Samantha Van Bogart

[00:00:03] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Samantha Van Bogart. Welcome to the show, Samantha. Looking forward to our conversation today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[00:00:23] Yeah, so ladies and gentlemen, Samantha is an adoptee and also an adoption professional. You've got two sons and a cabapoo. Yes. Which is cavalier and poodle. Poodle, yep. Yeah, so it's a miniature poodle presumably. Yes. Yeah, so it's small. My grandparents used to have standard poodles. Big.

[00:00:50] They are big and a little bit nutty. So I don't know whether little poodles are nutty or cabapoo's are nutty. You know, I wouldn't say that he's nutty so much as he is a dog with some level of functional anxiety and a lot of separation anxiety, but the sweetest thing ever as long as you're home and snuggling with him.

[00:01:17] Yeah. So he jumps up on the sofa whilst you're watching. Oh yeah. He needs to be touching you at all points if you're home. Yeah. So, yeah. And that's nice. I was thinking, stroking a dog is one of my nicest things to do, you know? It's very relaxing and it's very relaxing as long as you have the opportunity and you give yourself permission to actually sit and relax. Whilst you're doing it. Yeah.

[00:01:47] Have you heard of, I've forgotten the guy's name now. He's got a scale of consciousness. His name escapes me. Power versus force is the book and it's, yeah. He's got a scale of human consciousness and he goes from zero to a thousand. Is this ringing any, is that ringing any bells at all? Yes. A little bit. Yeah.

[00:02:16] I'm going to check it. Whilst you're asking, whilst you're answering a longer question, I will, I will check it out. And if I, David Hawkins, David. Yeah. Yeah. Consciousness. So, uh, not to a thousand David Hawkins via, uh, kinesiology has mapped human consciousness. Yes.

[00:02:37] And, um, the wag and the dog's tail calibrates at something like 350 on that scale of consciousness. And that is the unconditional love number. I think it's 350. That is amazing. I think that's incredible research, but also like not really surprising.

[00:03:01] It taps a little bit into that idea of, um, like psycho somatic existence and how we are biological things, you know, creatures that, um, our subjective experiences are very much influenced by anatomy and biological processes happening inside of us and chemical reactions that

[00:03:28] we aren't always fully consciously aware of. Yeah. Mm hmm. She knows her onions. I do. I know my onions very well. Yeah. Uh, that metaphor does travel all the way to Minnesota, doesn't it? Knowing your onions. Oh yeah. Oh, for sure. Okay. Yeah. Um, psychosomatic then. Mm hmm. Psychosomatic brain and body.

[00:03:58] Exactly. Yeah. What about psycho spiritually? You've heard of that? Very much so. Yeah. So I'm a, I'm a social worker. I'm a clinical social worker. And, and I think something that's so unique to clinical social work, um, maybe even in relationship to some of our, um, you know, related psychological fields or, or careers

[00:04:24] is that social work dives really heavily into something called bio psycho spiritual social assessment or functioning. Um, and so what that does is basically take this, you know, like age old adage that we, um, are complex multifaceted creatures. And it looks at thought, um, um, um, increasingly larger kind of systems or scales, but in all

[00:04:54] of those systems or skills, we're looking at biology, psychology, spirituality, sociology, so our social, um, um, needs and experiences and then measuring and assessing what our thoughts, feelings and behaviors are in relation to those. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can, can you put a bow around that or some of the things that you've learned through that

[00:05:24] about, about, about, about thriving? I can, you know, or at least I can try. I think, you know, this question that you, you, some of these questions you sent to me to think about over the last few minutes, the first one being the most loaded, and that is, what does thriving mean to you? Um, Why is it loaded? Because there's so much there.

[00:05:49] I feel like, you know, how does one even possibly begin to define that? Right. The very thing is, is such a complex and profound idea. Um, I did my best, you know, I did my best to try and identify that. Yeah. Can I just jump in on that? Right. Of course. Um, loaded.

[00:06:16] Uh, so loaded, you mean full, um, the, the, how, how loaded it, uh, landed for me was kind of judgy, judgmental. Isn't that amazing? It is amazing. It is amazing. It is amazing. You know, I think to me, when I think of thriving, I don't think of thriving as the absence. And this goes back to that kind of biopsychosocial spiritual sort of functioning.

[00:06:46] I don't think of thriving as the absence of adversity or trauma or struggle. Um, I think of thriving as having the capacity and resources and relationship and freedom to live a meaningful and authentic life. Even alongside those experiences of adversity and trauma and struggle.

[00:07:10] So what that means is, you know, firstly and foremost, I think thriving is subjective. Right. Right. What it, what thriving looks like for one person, for me compared to you, for example, might be completely different than what it is for your neighbor or my neighbor. And so I think part of what makes asking the question, what does thriving mean to you and

[00:07:33] it being loaded is that it's, it's important that we don't necessarily impose our own definitions of thriving or success or wellbeing on other people. Um, I want to do that. Tell me more, tell me more, Simon. I won't therapize you in this interview, I promise, or at least not too much. Okay.

[00:08:01] Um, well, yeah, you know, I think it's, it's a unique experience, right? To every person. It is. It is. Um, and the, the podcast was created to, to, to mine the wisdom and, and share it with the listeners. Yes. In case. Yeah. It helps in case it brings a fresh perspective. Uh, yeah.

[00:08:30] I, um, have you heard of Mel Robbins? Hmm. Have I heard of Mel Robbins? I don't know if the name is familiar to me. She's, um, but she, she's got a podcast, uh, in, in a, that's in a different sort of of, well, yeah. Um, she's, she's had a billion streams of her podcast. Sure. Yeah.

[00:08:57] Um, she's a personal development kind of, okay. Okay. But, um, a lot of it, I heard of being interviewed by a guy who has a similar kind of philosophy as me, similar, similar view of thriving as me, I would guess this guy. Anyway, so he, but he sometimes has people on his show and I just think, oh no, I don't want, I'm not, no, I'm not interested in that. You know, I don't listen to his podcasts every week. Um, but he had this Mel Robbins on it.

[00:09:25] So she's got a billion streams, but I, I, I realized that, uh, she's obviously, she's got nothing to do with adoption, but, um, a lot of her stuff is the complete opposite of, of, of my, my, my philosophy. Yeah. So I switched the podcast off or I stopped the podcast and, and then I thought, oh no, let's let, let me, I'll go back and see if there is something that I can learn to it.

[00:09:54] So she's, she's all, she's about, um, actions and little actions and remembering stuff and, and, and, but large, you know, the, the first half of the interview with her was her, how bad her life was before the turnaround. And, and, um, I thought that was an interesting one. So, you know, to what extent do people let, you know, tune into podcasts because their life

[00:10:23] is a complete mess and, you know, and, or, or are they, you know, and to what extent the people who are kind of doing okay, do they tune in to, to stuff? And, and, and that got me thinking about, uh, she started saying, um, she quoted some stats, 82% of Americans are stressed to hell basically. Oh no.

[00:10:49] Um, so it, it, it, it, it opened my, uh, it opened my eyes and now I'm starting to, now I've forgotten where I was going with the comment on it. Which is, you know, I think what's interesting though, about what you just described and how we can relate this back to this, again, this really deep complex question.

[00:11:12] What is thriving is that I think it's very common for people to relate the connotation of the word thriving is success, right? That we're doing well. And when we think of success, I think that oftentimes success is an action. We internalize that as an action. I have, for example, gotten everything off my to-do list to my to-done list.

[00:11:39] I've moved from 50% of all of my goals to 100% of all of my goals, you know, it's achievement. And I think thriving is deeper and more complex than that. I don't think that we can, I don't think it would be fair to say that, um, simply arriving

[00:12:05] from pre-hell to post-hell is now all you need to thrive, right? It's more than being successful. It's more than being, uh, maybe financially secure or highly functional. It's, it's requires authenticity. It requires, um, being able to explore and express who you are within your value system, uh,

[00:12:34] without feeling obligated to conform to other people or without feeling like you need to go through a series of checkboxes every single day. To have that right, that sense of being in a state of thriving. Mel Robbins, uh, talked about divorcing self-worth from success. Mm.

[00:13:01] As a how, and she described that as a how thing. I've learned how to do that, you know. Um, uh, but then she talked about some, uh, pretty, she talked about doing some, uh, EMDR and some. MDA, uh, MDA assisted, uh, therapy that had, you know, blown her mind in presumably in a good way. Yeah. You know, but, but blowing, I mean, when I think about blowing our minds. Yeah.

[00:13:30] I think about that. That sounds like a good way to change your belief, but just a little bit more dramatic. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree with that. I mean, I think that, um, you know, this is something that I think we see happen in like, uh, clinical work too, especially in a therapeutic setting. Uh, or behavioral modification of some kind. People, clients show up to therapy and they're begging their therapist to. Change them. Right.

[00:14:00] Inherently on a deep, deep level. Uh, what they're looking for is an epiphany. Right. They're looking for something to blow their mind. And I would, I would be lying if I didn't say, you know, early on in my career, I think I would tell myself. Okay. What kind of epiphany are we going to land at today? But it's not always about those epiphanies, right? It's not always about needing to have an epiphany to have.

[00:14:30] Belief changes happen or needing to have an epiphany in order to, to be able to. See a difference in oneself or adopt a new perspective or. Achieve a state of thriving. Sometimes it's a lot more subtle than that. When you were, you, you said, uh, alongside, um, you said it's, uh, thriving isn't the absence of hardship. I think it was the word. Yeah. Did you say hardship? Was that your word?

[00:15:00] It was. Yeah. I mean, essentially adversity, trauma. Adversity. Trauma. Um, alongside. Would you say a difference between, uh, despite using the word alongside or rather than despite, you know, thriving, despite trauma or thriving alongside trauma would, would, would that be different to you? Or would that be kind of synonymous to what extent would that be synonymous? I think it's synonymous.

[00:15:30] I think, you know, something that's important to point out two things. One, life is full of trauma. Even the most well off, well adjusted people with every single resource known to mankind experience trauma. Um, if anybody has ever met somebody who hasn't experienced trauma, I would be fascinated to also be introduced to that person.

[00:15:58] Uh, because I think life is inherently full of trauma. Uh, and I think without that, we would be living in some kind of like simulated utopia, in which case there's other issues that we have to discuss and tackle. Um, so I think it's synonymous.

[00:16:17] And I think the important message here is not that thriving or being able to achieve thriving means that you won't be impacted by hardship, right? Those things should impact you. And that's what we're doing.

[00:16:34] If we're human and if we are open to emotional experience, um, then we're also open to the idea that adversity and trauma and struggle are, are sometimes deeply profoundly emotionally hard. Uh, and they do sometimes completely also change the trajectory of our life.

[00:16:56] What thriving means is that we're open to that experience, that we're open to our own self sense of self determination and capacity that we're willing to tap into, uh, resources and resilience and others. Um, to still show up authentically as ourself, despite that, despite the trauma. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:17:25] I think, you know, it's unique about this when we also relate this back to adoptees and the experience of being an adoptee is that. Especially when it comes to thriving. I mean, I think the way that we've measured thriving for adoptees as archaic, as we now understand it to be is that we evaluate how well.

[00:17:49] An adoptee has essentially a simulated or adapted to their adoptive environments. Um, but, but what's important and maybe flawed with that is that adoptees aren't necessarily thriving simply because they are, you know, children who are academically successful or because they have loving parents or because they're socially well adjusted or because they.

[00:18:17] They, you know, fit perfectly now into this different culture or neighborhood or socioeconomic class that they came from. When we, when we look at it that way, it's too shallow. We're overlooking the, um, I think internal experiences of identity and belonging and loss and culture and trauma that need to be accounted for when we, when we measure thriving.

[00:18:45] So I think there's this really interesting dichotomy that a lot of adoptees experience that sometimes feels like a barrier to thriving, which is an adoptee can love their adoptive family. They can experience genuine happiness. They can be genuinely functional, happy people, and they can still grieve. And that is something that prevents somebody from feeling like they're thriving.

[00:19:16] Yeah. Yeah. Assimilation. Um, the, uh, the, the thing that popped into my head, as you said, that was, um, um, why fit in when you were born to stand out? I'm not sure whether that's a Dr. Seuss thing, Seuss thing or something like that. I don't know. Um, yeah.

[00:19:35] Um, you, usually it's, I, I think it is deeply, deeply, deeply subjective. Mm hmm. Um, and, and that allows us to have 720 interviews about it. Right. Cause otherwise. Absolutely.

[00:20:00] But, you know, but we don't get Mel, we don't, we don't get Mel Robbins, um, uh, you know, billion streams. Right. Um, so there's a kind of like a emotional wellbeing. Yes. Comfortable in our own skins. Yes. It's kind of the, I would say it's the, the, the, the, the synopsis of it.

[00:20:27] If you, if you put the, if you put the transcripts from the interviews into chat GPT and said, give me, give me two words for thriving. That's what it would be. It would say emotional wellbeing. Yes. I would agree with that.

[00:20:44] I think, you know, the other thing here, Simon is that when I was thinking about this and when I was introspecting about this question and, and kind of trying to define it, you know, for my own sake. Um, I was really thinking about the idea of permanency, which is just always on the forefront of our mind.

[00:21:07] I feel like in the adoption world, but, but the idea of is thriving something that somebody achieves, which we've kind of already touched on, but then when one achieves it, are they always in a state of thriving? Do they forever stay in a state of thriving or is it also something that we can kind of ebb and flow from? Um, and what has society told us about that?

[00:21:36] And, you know, my, my personal experience and opinion would tell me, I don't think thriving is necessarily permanent. I think it's also not only is it subjective, it's subjective to change depending on our life experiences and, um, and where we're at, you know, our own, our own journey.

[00:21:58] I think that at least for myself as an adoptee, as I have grown and had life experiences, I can recall phases of my life where at that moment, you know, for that phase, I felt like I was thriving. I had that emotional health, the ability to show up as my genuine self. And then life life and trauma happened.

[00:22:24] And sometimes it would kind of tilt that sense of thriving askew. Um, and, and in some cases it took a really long time to get back there, you know, and I think that's okay. I think that's, that's something about this that's important to say to people is that, um, it just because you maybe were thriving once before doesn't mean you can't ever get there again.

[00:22:53] Um, and, and I think, I think that's normal. You know, I think that's okay.

[00:23:03] One of the things that's true for all, all parents is that this, that their one liner sentence would be, and obviously every parent would have a different view on it. They wouldn't use the word thriving. They, they would just say, you know, if, if you asked a gazillion parents, what do you want for, um, your, your kids?

[00:23:32] And in one sentence, if you put all those into chat GPT, you would get, um, I just want my kid to be happy. Yes. So, um, we kind of get that right. Right. And that, that, that would, that puts a pressure on a kid. Yeah.

[00:23:55] Um, and also I think it's driven by what a mentor of mine calls emotophobia. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I could change it slightly to, um, sadnessophobia. Yeah. Or traumophobia. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so the, the idea is, you know, there's something wrong with not feeling okay. Yes.

[00:24:25] And, uh, somebody asked me about thriving once, and, and I didn't have the answer off the top of my head, right? And so you said, and said, that's just a bit strange to me because you've been asking that question quite a lot. And you, you, you don't have an off pat answer, do you? And I said, well, yeah, it's funny. But the, the best I could come up with in the, in the time was, uh, something I heard from a, uh, another, well, yeah, I wouldn't call him a mentor because I haven't spent that much time with the guy, but I read a few of his books.

[00:24:53] Um, he, uh, this is a guy called George Pransky. And he says, uh, it's being grateful for the highs and graceful for the lows. Yes. I love that. So there's a level of contentedness rather than riding some kind of emotional rollercoaster. There's some flattening out of the, the emotional rollercoaster. So, and so we're not as scared in the dark bits and we don't hit the peaks, but we don't hit it. We don't feel the despair in the document.

[00:25:24] And it kind of fits in with what my longest term, you know, my longest standing mentor, um, Liz says, she said, uh, if we're okay with not being okay, we're always okay. That's right. That's a hundred percent right. And what a profound concept. Right.

[00:25:54] Like that. So it blows everything out of the water with what I think so many of us have been taught to believe, which is life is black and white. There's right and wrong. There's up and down. There's yes or no. What you've just done is peed the whole world in shades of gray and you've taken black and white out of it. Yeah. And hopefully we've sidestepped emotophobia. Yeah. And as a bonus, we're now okay with all the emotions in the entire spectrum of us.

[00:26:22] Or just not fighting them as much, you know, like, oh, I'm suppressing it. You know, like, oh, I've been suppressing this and, oh, I, you know, I've not, I mean, it's all tough, right? Yeah. And I haven't been allowing myself to feel the feels and the torture of that. It's hard. I mean, it's really hard, I think, to live that way.

[00:26:50] I, it's not, um, how do we say this? It's not about not feeling those things. Nobody is saying that feeling sad or feeling anguished or depressed or uncomfortable or frustrated or angry, angry or depressed feels good. Right? Like, those things don't feel good. Those aren't comfortable places to exist.

[00:27:16] But there is something really powerful that goes alongside thriving when we give ourselves permission to feel those things. And when we allow ourselves to experience that wholly and just, sometimes it requires you to just hang on for dear life. And you just kind of get through it.

[00:27:37] And then at the other side, you're able to look back and reflect and, um, you know, digest or process what you've experienced. Um, and sometimes it's really hard, you know, it's hard to do that. And, and those experiences can be so profound that we do avoid them for future, future experiences.

[00:28:04] But, um, you think the key is being able to show up or being willing at least to try. I think we're talking about how we feel about how we feel. Yeah, I would say a little bit.

[00:28:26] So I said this yesterday to somebody and, you know, I, um, and I said, I don't, I don't think you'll, you'll know this song. I think it might've been before you're talking, um, uh, uh, does a, it's REO Speedwagon or somebody like that from the eighties. And it's, um, I, I just can't fight this feeling anymore. Yep. Yep. Well, fighting feelings, it doesn't tend to go too well, does it? No, it really doesn't.

[00:28:54] And why, like, who told us we had to fight feelings? Like, so who told us how to fight feelings? Well, I would say it's probably our parents because they said, how, you know, they said, how are you doing? And you, you said, you're feeling bad. And, oh, what's wrong with you? Yeah. Um, so there's, there's that kind of, um, because they just want us to be happy. Yes.

[00:29:23] So they, you know, they put, you know, if, if, if, so I'm not just talking about my parents, I'm not saying this is my experience. I'm, I've spoken to a lot of parents and, and they, we just want, you know, my mum and dad just wanted me and my sister to be happy. And, and they still just want us to be happy. Um, oh, my mum does, but that's not all right, uh, uh, alive anymore, but despite that, but that's what, but that's what parents bought.

[00:29:52] But that is our introduction to emotophobia or sadnessophobia, is it not? And I, um, so I used to worry about worrying. Yeah, I did too. It's interesting that you described that. I had that experience frequently as a kid. Um, yeah, I had it as an adult. Yeah. I had it as an adult.

[00:30:19] I had it as an adult after going on lots of doing lots of, you know, going on, reading lots of books about happiness and, and, and going lots of stuff about wellbeing. And then, so then you think you've put in all this work and yet I'm still worrying about worrying. But I would never say that I have anxiety, which is an interesting one, because I think some people, some people define anxiety as worrying about worrying.

[00:30:47] But, you know, it depends a little bit on the person too. And I think the circumstances, um, it's really interesting to hear you talk about, and, and something that I think is worth even exploring deeper is this idea of where does this fear of not feeling okay and, and having permission to voice that come from. Um, and you're correct.

[00:31:15] You know, I think a lot of us are subject to that experience because of how we were raised and our parents were subject to that experience because of how they were raised and, you know, generations before and before and before. But I actually think if we were to pull all the way out and look at that from a, from a really high bird's eye perspective, it goes so much further and deeper than that historically, right?

[00:31:40] And the evolution of, of human existence and humankind is, is, is, you know, we could go back a hundred plus years and think about what it was like to live during that time.

[00:31:53] And, and, and how society was, was shaped by the ability to survive and humanity didn't necessarily have the luxury to some degree of being able to achieve thriving, maybe the same way we do now.

[00:32:18] And so these generational systemic messages, and we could go even further than a hundred years back. I mean, we could go all the way back to the cavemen and then be like, yeah, they really truly could not think about thriving. They were just sticks and stones surviving, you know, but, but generationally how that message has changed and been influenced by society is really interesting to think about.

[00:32:42] And so now in our, in our modern age, in the 21st century year, 2026, it's really interesting to think about socially. The tools or resources are luxury. You know, I think that some of our ancestors would, would consider luxury.

[00:33:01] The things that we have access to today that allow us to think about and achieve thriving or emotional wellbeing or happiness.

[00:33:13] Yet we still, as a society, as, as a human race are kind of shedding, maybe some of these really deeply seated, long time standing historic fears or necessities that were required for evolution.

[00:33:32] As you were saying that, I was thinking, is Samantha talking about the luxury of being worried about? Well, the luxury of being worried. Yes. Is that kind of what you're getting at? Yeah.

[00:33:56] That a hundred years ago, the kind of the, if I was thinking about the trenches, I saw the trenches. So World War One. Yes. To that, well, 1914 to 1918. So 110 years ago. Yeah. You know, you didn't really have, you were worried about surviving. You weren't really worried about.

[00:34:25] You were worried about worrying. And that was true for all classes, which I think is interesting too. I mean, yes, people who were maybe more well off during the early 1900s have more of an ability to worry about worrying, but, but everybody in their own unique way was surviving. And I think that's still true today. Right. We still, we still see disparity between classes.

[00:34:53] But something that is still true for all living things is that the ability to experience the entire human emotion spectrum is a luxury. So we shouldn't be afraid of that. Yeah. So at the top, we were talking about psycho, psychological, psychosomatic, psychospiritual. Yeah.

[00:35:21] We've done quite a lot on psycho, psychology, and we've done quite a lot on emotional. What about, what about somatic and spiritual? Yeah, good question. I, I will share my own experience on kind of the more psychosomatic side of things.

[00:35:45] So the way I was raised was very black and white, you know, and I love, I should say this because I'm sure my parents will listen to this podcast episode. I love my parents. My parents are amazing people, great, great individuals. And they themselves, I think, had a parenting philosophy that was a little bit subject to their own experiences as they were raised. But the way I was raised was very black and white.

[00:36:12] And, and, and we worked, me and my parents worked very hard throughout pretty much all of my childhood. And even, you know, still to this day in my adulthood on understanding each other's perspective, perspectives and worldview and lived experiences. But for me personally, it took a really long time to understand the deep connection between what I think and what I feel.

[00:36:39] Or what I, maybe a better way of describing it is what I think and what sensations I'm experiencing. So for a long time, I would say it was somebody who could think all the thoughts, right?

[00:36:57] I had all the CBT skills to be able to reframe a thought or identify a faulty thought or, you know, utilize a coping mechanism of some kind or something like that.

[00:37:11] And despite that, and despite that, what I felt, the actual physical sensations in my body didn't match what I could consciously conjure up or tell myself I believed or, you know, action I was maybe choosing.

[00:37:30] And I think that's where that psychosomatic work comes in is that the disconnect between what we think and what we feel or what experiences, what, what sensational experiences we're feeling absolutely impact us on a deep level. Well, right on a psychological level, on a social level, an occupational level, spiritual level. And it's really hard sometimes to do that work.

[00:37:59] So something that I did, this was pre-pandemic, I was in therapy. And I remember my therapist said to me one day, she said, how long are you able to sit? I said, what do you mean? What does that mean? What do you mean by that? I can sit for hours. I, you know, I work at a computer all day long. And she goes, no, how long can you sit with no distractions?

[00:38:26] Nobody talking to you, nothing in your hand, eyes closed. How long can you sit? I said, I don't know, you know, like maybe five minutes, 10 minutes, maybe longer. She said, okay. So what I want you to do this week is I want you to test that theory. I want you to see how long you can sit. And so I did maybe five seconds at most.

[00:38:50] Could I sit in my actual body and allow myself to experience just literally existing in my body? And I remember feeling so angry and so like ashamed. And so I would go to therapy the next week and we'd talk about that. And that was something I worked really, really hard at is being able to just sit and allow my body to experience the sensations it was experiencing, which is really hard work.

[00:39:19] You know, I think it's really, really challenging to do that, but so important. So I watch a lot of, well, me and my wife, she, some of the programs we watch on television, she doesn't want to watch, she don't want to watch what I want to watch sometimes. Sure. We watch lots of crime drama and police things.

[00:39:42] And when I see the suspect or the guy that's just done the crime being let into his, and it is usually his, cell. Yeah. And the guy's got nothing in the cell apart from his pillow. Yeah. If he's lucky. And a blanket, right? And there's the bed. That's it.

[00:40:12] There's no telly. There's no books. There's no nothing. There's no books. When I see that, I often feel a sense of dread or think a sense of dread about that. Yes. What if that was me? Yes. I would struggle I would struggle with that

[00:40:43] one of the things that listeners will sometimes get I would imagine sometimes get cheesed off with me saying about I say it quite a lot it is that talk therapy isn't great for pre-verbal trauma no it's not I would agree with that and I usually put it slightly bolder than that right

[00:41:13] talk therapy is yeah so I'm the question that's forming now for me on the back of that is what did is what you were talking about as in the distinction between how you could think one thing and feel something completely different

[00:41:42] is that a is that a symptom of the fact that talk therapy wasn't touching stuff for you my opinion is yes I mean for me in my experience absolutely and I'll agree with you Simon and say you know I think that there's a lot of great things things that come out of what we envision when we think of talk therapy and usually that's some

[00:42:11] version of CBT cognitive behavioral therapy which is amazing right as an intervention therapeutic clinical model great love that it does it does this great thing of touching on our triangle of psychology which is thought feeling action behavior behavior but then it fails to include some of those other parts which are things like sensation

[00:42:42] so yeah I mean for me CBT the years of CBT that I've done didn't touch on a deep enough level and I'll also say you know the world of psychology and the world of clinical intervention is changing every single day it changes all the time and so I think talk therapy is almost too generalized of a term now it's almost like we do need to narrow in on that

[00:43:12] like what intervention or what model are you talking about because DBT for example dialectical behavioral therapy oftentimes looks like talk quote unquote talk therapy but it does touch on so much more that psychosomatic side of things and DBT with CBT combined can be hugely successful for people but yeah I mean it's

[00:43:41] I don't think I've ever experienced or met anybody that could adequately achieve achieve all of their own goals that they wanted to achieve in therapy or through therapeutic intervention with just one type of therapy alone or one model alone it's usually a combination of things it's usually kind of a hodgepodge and I think that speaks

[00:44:11] to the complexity of the human mind and human existence right we should as clinicians we should be able to come up with an eclectic enough intervention or model that adequately supports the clients or patients that we're serving so we've touched a little bit on somatic there and I'm conscious of time

[00:44:41] what about the spiritual bit yeah so here's another thing about me I was not raised religious I was raised in an atheist family and I think that's very unique especially for the times as somebody growing up in the 90s and early 2000s but it took me again until I would say my adulthood

[00:45:11] to understand enough about myself and understand enough about human experience or society to understand spirituality and in understanding spirituality understand religion what I have learned and I'm not you know like a religious or deeply spiritual clinician but what I have learned is that these are really important things for people to be able to have access to

[00:45:40] in exploring through their own unique experiences and the way that I define spiritualism is the idea of being connected to something bigger than oneself right and so it doesn't necessarily need to be for at least me it doesn't need to be an organized religion but it does need to be something that I am giving myself permission to explore and supporting others and exploring

[00:46:10] for themselves whether that be some organized religion like Judaism or if somebody is Muslim or follows Islam or maybe it's not maybe it's something completely different but I think it's important to think about those things and incorporate them into our own personal introspection as well as the way that we're supporting other people

[00:46:40] I was thinking you're alluding to non-religious spirituality I was alluding to that and I was thinking of the I have heard internal family systems for example referred to as a psycho spiritual approach did I mishear that or have you heard it called that yeah I have heard it called that yeah so it's about

[00:47:11] consciousness so it's psycho spiritual so it's about our psychology and who we are as consciousness and how we're connected to other people or systems or things I think part of at least for me spirituality is also gratitude right and with gratitude with a with a practice or perspective of gratitude there is also a practice of mindfulness

[00:47:41] right so the ability to say for example this desk I'm sitting at is something so much bigger than me right you know it's just a lonely desk it required people and resources and time and organization and effort potentially far beyond my own even like conscious understanding for this desk to just exist for me to be able to use and I think that

[00:48:10] is really touching that's something that colors my life to be able to think about and be grateful for yeah that feels like a good place to bring it in Samantha well it kind of does I could go on talking for another hour me too I feel like yeah and maybe we'll do a part two yeah thank you well thank you so much for the time

[00:48:39] I appreciate being here and I appreciate talking with you about these really important things yeah I appreciate you too and we appreciate you too listeners take care bye bye thanks bye bye bye bye bye Thank you.