Quality Of Relationship With Kathleen Shiels

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Kathleen, Kathleen Shiels from St Margaret's adoption in Scotland. And it's Glasgow is it? It is. Phew. Right in the heart of Glasgow. Right in the heart of Glasgow.

[00:00:24] So yeah, heart. I say it a fair while, a fair few times, we only have big people with big hearts on this podcast. And last time we spoke, your heart really touched mine. So I'm looking forward to this conversation today, Kathleen. Thank you, Simon. It was great to speak with you. It was amazing.

[00:00:49] You're a star. So the biggie, right? Thriving. What does thriving mean to you, Kathleen? And just for context here, listeners, you're a counsellor therapist? Yes, counsellor therapist, educator. Educator.

[00:01:08] So I've dealt with many children and adults, I would say, because parents are impacted too. It's almost generational. A lot of the struggles that people have are generational. So I've worked with people in all different kinds of care experiences for many, many years.

[00:01:32] And I think as you say, Simon, it's just that you have to keep that awareness of their heart and who they are, and the pain that they're in and the journey that they're on. And that you're walking a small part of their journey with them, and you want to leave them in a better place. So I suppose that's really whatever role that I'm in, that's what I hope to do with people is just leave them in a better place.

[00:02:01] So before we record, you were talking about the variety of the adoptees experience. And have you got a feel for what are the differences that make the difference on that spectrum?

[00:02:32] The people's stories vary. And I think we were talking the last time about historic adoptions, where people were relinquished as babies. And the very specific sense of loss that they learn about, they don't remember, but they learned that they had this loss.

[00:02:59] And many of the children and young people who are adopted nowadays, it's not relinquishment. They've experienced a life with their birth family. And for a whole range of reasons, it's not deemed safe for them to continue. And they go through the foster care and then adoption.

[00:03:25] So I suppose the answers to what makes it successful is always relationship, the quality of the relationship that you find yourself in. And I think in the historical days where you had parents almost just sitting, waiting for this baby to arrive.

[00:03:51] And they got this usually five to 12 days old baby just to imprint on and bring up as their own. And they were very much allowed to do that. There was no life before and they built their family. And modern families don't get to do that. They have to embrace the birth family and the stories.

[00:04:20] And, but what I'm really hopeful for is that this will lead to our younger children who are adopted. They will have a better sense of identity and they'll maybe not go through the trauma that I know, Simon, you described so well. Hitting your 40s and hitting this realization of the loss she experienced and what does it mean for me?

[00:04:47] So hopefully growing up with an adopted family who are brave enough to let you ask the hard questions, brave enough to hear you say, I miss that bit of the life I had before. And I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question. I think that's a great question.

[00:05:11] And that will lead to adults who don't have that crushing sense of loss as they grow. Does that make sense? Yeah. It does. And it also, there's a juxtaposition there, right?

[00:05:27] So does the, the older, my generation of adoptees or adopted as baby, babies with, without the neglect or whatever that went on within biological families of kids that are removed these days rather than being relinquished. Yeah.

[00:05:51] So on one hand, we, we've got it, the older adoptees have got it easier. And on the other hand, they've got it harder. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think whatever way you look at it, you see, you don't have the trauma.

[00:06:12] You also probably didn't come from parents with substance abuse. Many of the relinquished babies in the past, it was young, healthy, whole people who society just said you can't keep your baby. But nowadays, many of the children who are there for adoption have other issues because of their, their start in life and the, the terrible marks that are left by trauma and neglect.

[00:06:42] So they've, they've, they're, they're starting from a different place. So the, while the losses are the same and the, you know, many of the foundational steps and difficulties you would experience can be similar. Yeah.

[00:07:35] Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's for the, the family units, again, that sense of bravery and courage to be able to sit with whatever the story is. Yeah. So let me take you back to the quality of relationships so that we can kind of hone in on the, the big drivers.

[00:07:58] Cause I, I could send us down a bit of a rabbit hole here really of, of this historic versus current vibe, because whatever, whether this is, is historic, whether this is current and all the different, all the different years in between.

[00:08:15] I, I'm guessing that you're thinking you're putting quality of relationships down as, as the number one, no matter what the date or the era of adoption we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. So that begs another question then for me really, in terms of what, what drives the quality of relationships.

[00:08:44] For me watching parents with children, the attunement. I think that you'd see some parents who are so attuned to the needs of their child and they respond almost instinctually.

[00:09:09] Um, but it is based on what the child needs. So the interaction can be encouraging them to take a risk, supporting them when they're afraid or just that noticing them. You know, the, so many children have got big behaviors that can't be ignored.

[00:09:35] And there are usually another sibling somewhere in the background who doesn't have the big behaviors, but has the same need to be noticed. And the, the quality of that relationship that is able to go, I see you, I see you too.

[00:09:55] And seeing a child is one thing, but being able to communicate to them that you've seen them is what creates that bond that you grow up knowing that there is a, this, the most important person in your world sees you, notices you, and is going to respond to you. I think that's the core of that.

[00:10:22] If it's to be a healing relationship, if it's to heal the wounds that you're bringing from your early life, or if it's the healing relationship that's going to support you when you work out, there's been a loss.

[00:10:37] But that, no matter what relationship is central, I mean, it's central to every child's life, but it's even more central to a child who's had a disrupted beginning. That sense of no matter what, I'm here, I see you, and I'm at your side. I think that's central to what every child needs. Yeah.

[00:11:08] And adults, right? We grow into, and I think that's where you see that as people grow, there are people who cannot allow other people to be important to them. They can't accept that they are important to other people. And it's because they weren't taught that as children. And if you don't believe it when you're wee, you're not going to miraculously believe it when you're big.

[00:11:38] Yeah. Presumably the attunement of the parents' parents is going to be a big factor in this. So the attunement of our adoptive grandparents is, I guess, what I'm talking about here.

[00:12:05] That's going to impact how the parents raise, how the parents attune. And obviously there's going to be differences between the attunement. If there's two caregivers, right, there's going to be a different level of attunement. Two caregivers will have different. Yeah.

[00:12:30] And I think that's why the assessment process for adopters is so long and so detailed. And in many ways it's intrusive because every bit of their lives has to be examined. And that's one of the things that the social workers look at. How were you parented? What's your relationship with your parents? And how did they parent you?

[00:12:57] And how will you parent your child? Because we are, we're in a generational queue. And we have learned and we've taken in things from the people who have come before us. Good things and bad things. And then we reflect on that in our time. Some of it fits, some of it doesn't fit. But we are influenced by everybody that has gone before us. So we've got to.

[00:13:28] And I think as an adoption agency, we reach out to families. We offer peer support and family support. Because it's a massive step. And people often need supported in building those core relationships. We can't just leave it to chance that the grannies are going to, you know, have this wave of love. Usually they do. But we need to support people.

[00:13:55] And again, we need to be brave to listen to what people are saying. Because they won't always say lovely things. People need a space to talk about their fears and their worries and their disappointments. So they can knit it all back together again and still be a functioning family. Yeah. How do you see the relationship? Because the word that's coming up for me is emotional intelligence.

[00:14:22] And I think the reason that it comes up for me is because I've looked at that myself. So I've read books about emotional intelligence and listened to audio books or, you know, done questionnaires on that subject. I have done, I did do an attachment questionnaire, I think.

[00:14:46] I don't recall doing anything specifically on attunement. But we're throwing out lots of different words here. I don't hear much about emotional intelligence in the adoption space. It's mainly attachment and attunement. Is that just me? Do you hear much about emotional intelligence?

[00:15:17] It's not spoken about in those terms. But I suppose I would say anyone who is capable of attunement, there must be a level of emotional intelligence there. Because you have to be able to put your needs to one side to focus on the needs of another person. And I think that takes, if that's being done in a healthy way, it takes a level of emotional intelligence.

[00:15:46] I think the need for the emotional intelligence is almost underpinning everything. And in terms of attachment, I find attachment fascinating because you don't need to be securely attached to be a functioning, loving person. You can be that with your limp to one side or to the other.

[00:16:15] But again, it's having that emotional intelligence to understand how your attachment works and why you feel that way that allows you to compensate. So there's no need to be perfect and there's no need to be perfectly balanced.

[00:16:32] And I find the whole theory of attachment very hopeful that, you know, two people who are limping along with their own baggage can still be functioning and loving towards each other despite it not being perfect.

[00:16:51] But again, the higher the level of emotional intelligence, the more sense all of that makes to you and the more you're able to function and engage. I'm with you on all that.

[00:17:13] The thing that came into my head about emotional intelligence and attunement was that attunement seems to be like me and you, father and daughter, mother and daughter, mother and son, whatever. It's external. It's what, it's how attuned we are to the young person. So it's, it's, it's an external thing.

[00:17:44] It's about others. Whereas emotional intelligence, from what I can recall, there's four parts to it. And the first two parts are internal. And the second two parts are external. Right?

[00:18:02] So we, we look at ourselves first before we look at our, our, our emotional intelligence as, as, as how it relates to other people. So that seems to me to be a significant difference because when I think of the word attunement, I don't think of a, I don't think of an internal dynamic. Is it, but is that just me?

[00:18:29] I've not seen, I don't, I haven't looked at attunement enough to see the, the inner dimension. I don't know. I suppose attunement, I used to use attunement in my work as an educator. Almost as a way of building a relationship where learning could happen.

[00:18:52] So I think attunement is, is a, would you say it's, it's a tool for building that relationship, that communication. And I don't know, I don't know if I told you the last time, but when I, when I worked with children in schools and it was also, you know, the no, no touch policy. I don't know how you nurture and you don't touch.

[00:19:16] So I used to find that it was almost essential to, at some point, be skin to skin with a child. And there was almost a, a chemical, oh, you're in my space, you're looking at me, you're connecting to me. And the attunement was built from that. I am there.

[00:19:39] And the attunement from my side was a decision that shaped my behaviour. I am going to behave in a way that you know I'm here and I'm focused on you. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm thinking back to the, I'm thinking back to the, to the questions and drawing a couple of threads that you've talked to.

[00:20:07] So you talked about baggage and one of the greatest nuggets I've heard from, from an adoptive parent, adoptive mum, who was also runs an agency called Holly Ann Petrie down in, Petrie, Petrie down in, in the States.

[00:20:32] She said, raising adopted kids is about unpacking our own emotional baggage as adopted parents. Yeah. I see very much the, the adopters and their needs, their wants, their story of loss.

[00:21:05] And I think, going back to your point, Simon, about emotional intelligence. The more emotionally intelligent the adopters are to face their own story. Yeah. Enables them to be better parents. Yeah. Because what we don't need is this whitewash, you know, you're the perfect baby and I'm the perfect parent. We don't need that. No. We don't need that.

[00:21:33] We need human beings who are aware of their pain and their journey, their baggage, and are working through it and working with it and then helping the children do the same thing. So, what have you learnt about that inner and the, the, the inner stuff, the inner game and the outer game?

[00:21:57] So, the inner game in terms of our own emotional baggage and the outer game in terms of how we attune to our kids. What have you learnt around that? I think I've learnt the more adept people are at unpacking their own stuff, the more present they are for their children. Yeah.

[00:22:24] And the child gets, I'm thinking of one parent in particular, and the child's big behaviours got exactly the right amount of response that they required.

[00:22:46] It fitted, the parent's response fitted the child's behaviour because the parent was not bringing shame, embarrassment, guilt. What will other people think? The parent wasn't bringing any of those things to it because they had dealt with their business.

[00:23:07] And when it was their child, they were so able to be present that everything was proportional. So, if he had a huge, big explosion, things were brought down and calmed. And it was just, it was enough. He got the response he needed, not fuelled by what will everybody think, what will everybody say, what will people think I'm a bad parent. All of that had been dealt with by the parent.

[00:23:34] So, the child got a response that was appropriate. Yeah. And the forward outcomes and impacts were positive. Yeah. People talk about self-awareness. And, you know, I think about it, is that the first part? Perhaps that's the third, first quadrant of emotional intelligence.

[00:24:03] Perhaps that's why I'm remembering it. But, you know, the big question is how self-aware are adopted parents? Is that something that's brought out in the...

[00:24:32] In the assessment process? Is that brought out in the assessment's progress? And, you know, the thing that's coming straight into my mind is just at a very micro level. If we say to anybody, I'm thinking about friends or some immediate family.

[00:24:55] If we say to somebody, oh, you're getting angry about this, then 99 times out of 100, the other person will say, no, I'm not. And if they don't say, no, I'm not, they'll say, well, I've got every right to be angry. Right? There seems to be a kind of human tendency at this micro level.

[00:25:23] If we're told that we're not managing, if somebody else tells us that we're not managing our emotions effectively, then we don't say, ah, yes, I totally see what you're saying. Thank you for your... Thank you for your feedback. You know... Thinking here about, have you come across the Johari window? I think...

[00:25:51] I've heard about it years ago. We heard about it. I can't remember anything. It sounds very exotic, and I was so disappointed to discover it was the work of Jo and Harry. Oh, right. Okay. No, no. But it's those four windows. What we know about ourselves. What we want other people to know about us. How other people perceive us that we don't know about, and then the bit that's actually just a mystery to everybody.

[00:26:21] We don't know about it, and nobody else knows about it. So there's four different aspects, and they would say that when you're working on yourself, the idea is you want to make... You want to make... You want to shift the windowpane so that you are as aware of yourself as you can be, and that as little as possible is hidden from you. But to do that, you must embrace what the other people see.

[00:26:49] You know, you have to embrace the other people's perspective of you. Yeah. But it's not easy to do. Well, it's not easy, and it's definitely not common. No. No. But I suppose it's that when you're looking at people interacting, I think for everybody, even out with the adoption world,

[00:27:16] there's such a pressure in our society to say the right... To say the thing that's acceptable, to be the thing that's acceptable, to look the thing that's acceptable. And people spend an inordinate amount of energy apologising for not being all these things, or they carry a lot of shame and guilt for not managing, or they live their life in complete delusion in imagining that they are all these things,

[00:27:43] or trying to convince other people they are all these things. And I think that's maybe something that wasn't so prevalent in the past. You know, and your parents' generation probably got their baby, and they just got on with being mum and dad. And I think things are so complex now. Everything's so public with social media, and everybody is aware of all that's available.

[00:28:12] And I think the pressure's on people to live up to these standards that don't actually exist. Again, that point that we're talking about, this self-awareness, lots of people don't know they're doing it. Yeah. When I get near this subject, I often refer back to my own stuff, like having a business coach back in the day,

[00:28:44] having coaches going on courses these days, I spend time reflecting on that. And the biggest moments of insight, you know, when the blind spots, those,

[00:29:10] the questionnaires and stuff that I did were a safe way to bring blind spots to the surface. And, you know, doing them on a, doing them on a computer and getting the, getting the responses, and it's personal, you know, you can look at it,

[00:29:40] you can look at it without that. The, the, the, the, the defenses may, may come up, but I often recommend this disc, a disc thing for work. So a disc profile is a, is a self-awareness, self-awareness at work questionnaire, essentially.

[00:30:11] Have you come across anything in this, in the kind of, the parenting realm, like emotional intelligence, emotional intelligence questionnaires for, for parents? For parents? No, there's an adult attachment. Yeah. There's an adult attachment interview, which is very, very illuminating, and it's, based on evidence.

[00:30:40] So the questionnaires are, obviously, get you a response, but the interviews, and a lot of adoption agencies, use these, particularly. And, you can't just give an answer, you have to, evidence the answer. And the person, who's doing the interview, sort of, picking out, themes and traits, and, and that they, they give a lot of, insight, into, relationships,

[00:31:10] that, you know, we think it's this, but it, turns out, it's something different. So I've come across that, but, nothing in, in terms of just general parenting. Yeah. It would be interesting, if there was. You know, I'm thinking of AI, in this stuff as well. There must be. Yeah. There must be, an AI program, around that. And it's another, it's another way to do it.

[00:31:42] With, with privacy, and without, hopefully, with less emotional charge, around it. You know. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I also think that, even when we do have those, that, the big stuff comes up, the defences come up, in the, in, in the moment, lots of reflection, can help us,

[00:32:12] see stuff that, we weren't, able to see, in the moment. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's, one of the things, that we do in St Margaret's, is we have a, a peer support, support, and it's open to, whoever wants to come. Mm-hmm. And it's, just that space, where you can talk about things, after they've happened, and reflect, in the, again, without that, I was there,

[00:32:42] and all this has happened, but you can talk about, experiences, um, in a supportive, group, which allows you to, hear what other people say, because you're not heightened, at that time. So I think the, again, it's all, and it all comes back, to those, relationships. If you're having that conversation, with people you trust, and that you know, they will be much, more beneficial than,

[00:33:12] you know, if you're in a, a conference, or a course, and you're sharing with strangers, it's, it's never quite so, yeah, so profound. What else, have you, learnt about, improving the quality, of our, self-awareness, and our, relationships? I think the,

[00:33:45] empathy, and, the, ability to, empathise, and, the, ability, to, teach, empathy, is crucial. I think the, having that, ability to see, someone else, regardless of, how you might feel about them, or feel about the behaviours, but to,

[00:34:14] turn that, and see, what does it look like, from their point of view? What does it look like, looking out? How is, this experience, how are they, experiencing this moment, in their life? And you get that understanding, of, I can understand why, they're doing what they're doing, or saying what they're saying, or, why that decision was made, even though, it maybe hasn't worked out, I can understand, why it was done, but having the ability,

[00:34:44] to empathise, I think, is one of the major, ways, that it removes, a lot of the defences, because you're, able to see it, from their point of view, you're able to, if that was me, in that position, I can see why they're, you know, you almost, just, see it from a different perspective, and, you can't maintain, your position, once you know theirs, you know,

[00:35:13] if you're on your high dudgeon, and I can't believe, they did that, or they're not taking, your advice, or whatever, but when you see it, from their point of view, you can no longer, hold on to that, same position, you're altered by, seeing it from their position, and I think, that, that ability, and, being willing, to change, your stance too, allows progress, to happen, if you're willing to say, right, actually, I'm going to lay down,

[00:35:43] that opinion, that I had 10 minutes ago, because I've now had chance, to reflect, what does this feel like, for you, okay, I can't hold that position, that I had before, because I've now got, other information, so I'll have to reshape, and be in a different place, where I'm now, able to hear you better, or see you better, or be a better support, so I think, empathy, and, you know, and again, that takes, a bit of bravery, it takes, the self-awareness,

[00:36:13] it takes, that emotional intelligence, to project, what someone else, might be, going through, but it's just about, being, an open, human being, and, I think, what I say there, about that, putting down the position, that you're in, laying down your arms, almost it felt like, when I was talking, I laid down, the, this is the position, I'm defending, put that down, and just have a look, and see where they're standing, and the ground,

[00:36:43] that you're on, is that where you really, you know, do you really want, to hold that ground, do you want, to move towards them, do you want, to help them move, but again, it's the, these relationships, are just, I suppose the only point, of learning about yourself, is, to help you, experience others, yeah, and,

[00:37:12] I was watching, a cop show last night, and, there was, two guys, on, the, mean streets, of Belfast, in Northern Ireland, which are, mean streets, still mean streets, a young guy, and an old guy, basically, and the, the young guy, referred to, there's some, kind of, teenage delinquents, I don't know if we use that word, anymore, that's just, but they were, they were up to,

[00:37:41] stuff that was, pretty, pretty serious, but, and the, the, the young copper, referred to, referred to them, as scumbags, and the old guy, said, well, if you, you won't last, six months, if that's, how you see them, yeah, and, it really, it really,

[00:38:11] landed for me, did, did that, and it, kind of, links into this question, because, empathy, doesn't just make life easier, for the other people, it makes life easier, for us, you know, we have, you talked about putting down, the, they, they put down the arms, it, it makes life, more, peaceful, and, smooth, for, for us,

[00:38:42] and if we, and on the other side, at the other, at the other end of the spectrum, it, if we, if we, don't empathize, it, it's going to cause us more, battles, and, exhaustion, I think, and, this, this cop was saying, you won't make it, you won't, you won't be able to survive, in your, cop car, in your, cop career, if you,

[00:39:13] dismiss, these, kids as scumbags. Yeah, it's the, the dehumanizing, if you dehumanize, elements of, society, and that's, you know, obviously, horrible things go on in the world, but if that's the stance that you take, your world gets shorter, and shorter, and smaller, and smaller, and the people that you can trust, and relate to,

[00:39:42] become a smaller pool, and in dehumanizing, dehumanizing, other people, you have to, like, what does that do for you, but, and it's just what you're saying there, Simon, the, making those judgments on people, doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't work, it doesn't, get you anywhere.

[00:40:12] There's a sense of righteousness though, there's a sense of, there's a sense, the sense of righteousness, I've, I've been looking at this area, in, in my world, from, the, you know, from, well, yeah, from the circumstances of, I mean, the service that I receive, from different people, so, for example,

[00:40:41] getting my car serviced, there's, my expectations are quite high, and, that causes me, grief, it causes, it causes me, upset sometimes, right, when these expectations, aren't met,

[00:41:11] and, you know, I was, thinking about this, and, came up, you know, maybe I was, doing some stuff with, chat GPT, on this, but, what, what came up was, me, putting other people down, to build myself up, and, I could see, well,

[00:41:41] I couldn't see that, I, I couldn't see that, I thought, do it, is that why I'm doing it? Um, back to the Jihari's window, um, sorry, I haven't got a question on this, Kathleen. Yeah, no, but it's, if you've got anything to share. Just, as you were talking there, I was laughing, because one of the things I always say about people is, I was blessed, by low standards, and,

[00:42:09] there's an acceptance of, things aren't going to be perfect, and, and, I, I do, I know lots of people, who have got, excruciatingly, high standards, and, it doesn't bring them joy, it robs them of peace. You know, I've moved into a brand new house, absolutely dream, everything's perfect, except the washing machine, doesn't fit,

[00:42:40] works, but it doesn't fit, so the kickboard falls off, and there's no cupboard in front of it, hasn't taken away any of my joy. Oh, you'll need to get that fixed. No, I don't. I don't need it fixed. It's working, you know, and, I think, human beings, we can be, absolutely, tortured, by our own, expectations.

[00:43:10] It steals peace. It steals peace. The word that's coming, the phrase that's coming to, to me, on this is, righteous indignation. Indignation, yeah. Right, righteous indignation. So, yeah, it, you know, you have a right, that the person who's fixing your car, is going to fix your car. You have a right, that your surgeon,

[00:43:39] is going to be, absolutely, efficient, and, you know, you want your air traffic controller, to do a good job. You have a right, to expect these things, but I know there's a, I think, what you're describing, is there's, sometimes there's, that level of, it's got to be, better than average. It's got to be more than, enough. I suppose that's, maybe the,

[00:44:09] you know, that great big, enough in our language, is almost, a complaint. You know, that's enough, it's good enough. Good enough, doesn't sound like, a positive thing. But it, but it is. But I think we can be driven, and again, I think a lot of that, is societal, that we are driven, that good enough, is not good enough. And, and,

[00:44:41] someone else, I feel there's a, you know, we're going into, conspiracy theories now, but I think there's a, kind of global drive, for us never to be satisfied, and never to be at peace. But, finding your peace, is, is a gift. Finding peace is a gift. But your mechanic, still needs to be good. You know, you need to know, your car's safe.

[00:45:12] But that sense of, being aware of yourself, and being, aware of the, I think, everything we can discover, about ourself, there is another hidden part to it. You know, and from the, you know, counsellor role, that get the blind spots. The blind spots, that I see in a client, is not necessarily, what the client sees. But their blind spots, they need to discover, I can't see it, somebody,

[00:45:42] oh I think this is your blind spot. It's not going to land, it's not going to impact. They must find it, for themselves. It has to have meaning, and resonance to, their life, at that time. But, who was it? Rabbi Burns, the gift to see ourselves, as others see us. Would, you know, that, it's good to keep, that other notion, as well as, how,

[00:46:13] how are we being perceived, and why are we being perceived, like that? Not so much, how are we being, but why would they, think that about us? What are we communicating? It all comes down to, relationships and communication. Yeah. Which was the first, conversation I had, when I started in the adoption agency, and I was talking with my manager, and we're like that, it's all about relationships, and communication. Yeah. And if, you can,

[00:46:42] and that is not easy, and it's, people have to be brave, they have to know themselves, they have to be authentic, I know, Megan Markle ruined that word, but you know, you have to be authentic, and you have to hear, something that's, hard to hear, you have to hold, something that's hard to hold, and then, you move on. Yeah. But it's, it's all about,

[00:47:12] communication and relationships, I think. Yeah. Wow. That feels like, talking of rabbit holes. Yeah. Yeah. I feel a part two coming on, Kathleen. Thank you, Kathleen, and thank you, listeners. We'll speak to you again, very soon. Bye-bye.