Somatic Healing With Anna Ecklar

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Anna Ecklar from Christian Works for Children. I had to look at my notes there because I've got a couple of calls this afternoon. So down in Texas we have loads and loads of guests on from Texas. I know it's a big state, right? Is it like a hotbed for adoption?

[00:00:32] Honestly, I wouldn't necessarily say more so than other states, but it is big. So there are lots of agencies in Texas because there's so many different areas of Texas. So I guess that makes sense.

[00:00:45] Yeah. So today, listeners, we're going to talk about healing rather than thriving because Anna's sent me a little email yesterday looking at how we could share her wisdom from a therapist perspective. And healing seems to be the right theme to start with.

[00:01:14] So what does healing mean to you, Anna? I think a lot of what I think about when I think about healing is, which I guess this would be similar to my answer about thriving, but it would be getting to that authentic self.

[00:01:37] It's getting to that place where you are comfortable with yourself, confident with yourself. You have that sense of healthy self-esteem. You have a lot of meaningful relationships. And you have this sense of contentedness with your life and where you are, a sense of gratitude about your life. And you're also able to pour out to other people.

[00:02:07] So you kind of have this focus that is outward. And I think a lot of times with trauma, people can get so stuck and focused on the pain that they feel that they're unable to move towards other people.

[00:02:25] And so I think healing in a lot of ways looks like the ability to do that because you're not as wrapped up in your own pain because you've been able to heal from it. Yeah.

[00:02:42] When you're talking about the insular side of this, I thought of depression because depressed people stay in their bedrooms. They batten down the hatches. Because they are often listening to music that's going to match their mood. Yes.

[00:03:12] Yeah. No, I would definitely agree with that. I mean, depression is that low level of functioning where it's that inability to take care of yourself, let alone other people. And I mean, anxiety is kind of the exact opposite of that. And a lot of times it's like an over-functioning.

[00:03:33] And so, you know, you almost burn out in a sense because you're, yeah, you're over-activated. And so, I mean, even with healing, we always kind of talk about finding the in-between between under-functioning and over-functioning. Yeah.

[00:03:53] A lot of people are talking to me at the moment about burnout and secondary trauma. Mm-hmm. And we don't often kind of look at those kind of, we don't often look at those topics from a professional perspective. Mm-hmm.

[00:04:19] So maybe that, maybe that's a scope for perhaps a little bit later in this conversation or maybe another conversation. Who knows? We'll see. I've never heard the word over-functioning. So that's an interesting new idea for me. Mm-hmm.

[00:04:42] So you're, you've got an inner, you've got an inner, inner game part of healing and you've got an outer game part of healing. Mm-hmm. For you. Yes. And I guess we're going to, you mentioned them in that sequence, in that order. So I guess we're talking about. Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:05] And I, I feel like it's interesting with kind of the internal part as well as the external part, because, you know, a lot of times it's like what, you know, what comes first? The chicken or the egg? Like, what does it look like? Do you have to have the internal piece first? Do you have to have the external piece first? And a lot of times I think it can, you know, be either way.

[00:05:29] I mean, people will say sometimes like, oh, you can't, you know, love someone else until you learn to love yourself. And, you know, there are certain elements to that where it's like you do have to have some internal healing, but also you learn to love yourself sometimes through the way that other people love you. And the way that other people show you that you're worthy. And they do that in a consistent way by the way that they respond to you.

[00:05:58] And I mean, especially if we talk about, you know, with early development, you know, like caregivers, they respond to their babies with love and their babies develop that initial self-esteem from that interaction.

[00:06:18] And so there is that element where the external relationships and the resources do impact the internal piece. But, I mean, a lot of it too is not getting stuck in your current perception of yourself. So a lot of what I work on within trauma work, I'm trained in EMDR.

[00:06:47] And for your listeners that don't know, that's called eye movement desensitization reprocessing therapy. And so much of what I've learned from being trained in that is that when you're healing, you're essentially processing your trauma in a new way that moves from a negative perception of yourself to a positive perception of yourself.

[00:07:12] So that's kind of mainly what healing from trauma looks like is you might have still, you know, you're always going to have those same difficult experiences.

[00:07:20] But if you're able to look back and, you know, view yourself positively, it's like moving from a place of, you know, I am not worthy of love to a place of I am worthy of love or whatever it looks like for the individual person and what they kind of have gotten stuck on throughout their life. So, yeah, there are two elements to it. It's that internal piece and that external piece.

[00:07:48] And, you know, I think you can start in either place. Yeah. Yeah. Do people get hung up which way to start? I mean, I think sometimes I mean, I think a lot of times people are like, OK, I want to find healing. I want to move forward from these same things that I've struggled with my whole life.

[00:08:17] And I think a lot of times people don't know where to start. But and I mean, even with trauma work, we make sure that people have good coping skills and social support so that they can kind of reprocess those difficult experiences.

[00:08:35] So I guess that is kind of the starting place is making sure that you have things that you can pull upon to say like, oh, I know that I feel better when I take deep breaths and when I go on walks and when I build in working out or eating well into my schedule. And I also have, you know, I'm going to be able to do that. And I also have, you know, a friend that I can call and process some things with.

[00:09:00] I have, you know, so it's it's like those are kind of ways that we add some of a cushion for that internal piece. But I mean, also, sometimes people will draw upon resources in a different way than I expect.

[00:09:20] So like even within EMDR, I've had many clients who are Christian clients and their faith is such a deep part of their healing because they draw upon that resource of their relationship with God. And so, yeah, it's interesting because healing really does look different for everyone. But I have kind of noticed the general almost pattern or direction that people go with healing.

[00:09:47] Yeah. Do you want to share that pattern? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, it is like the main idea is moving from that negative perception of self to the positive perception. And, you know, a lot of that is I mean, it's done in EMDR, but it's reflecting on that memory, reflecting on.

[00:10:15] You know, the emotions we it's pretty somatic. So it's the emotions, the body sensations, you know, different elements of that time in your life and that negative thought about yourself. So you kind of focus on that negative thought. You know, of course, nobody. You should do this necessarily alone.

[00:10:39] It helps to like do this with the therapist, but generally it's reflecting on that negative experience and just slowly noticing what comes up for you. And I mean, mindfulness is also a therapy practice that is similar to this in a way. But it's allowing yourself to sit in some of those emotions that come up, those uncomfortable emotions and allowing yourself to move through them.

[00:11:04] So it's it's kind of it's not dwelling too much on any particular emotion, but more so just noticing it come up and pass you by. I feel like it sounds so complicated to explain, but a lot of it is kind of allowing yourself to face kind of those negative perceptions of yourself and those negative feelings.

[00:11:31] A lot of the time I feel like people try to outrun their trauma or outrun their difficulties and trauma work can't necessarily be done unless you just sit in it. So there's lots to break down there.

[00:11:50] First off, one of the things that comes to my mind is this as a 59 year old relinquished. Well, I lost my birth mother probably about a week at about a week old, I think. And I was in short term foster care for a month. And then she had to come back and collected me and took me to the adoption agency.

[00:12:21] Right. So she had to hand me over twice, which must have been really terrible for her. So that's going to be a somatic thing. Yes. That's going to be a somatic thing. And one of the challenges when we think about healing is for me, a lot of people think about talk therapy. Right.

[00:12:50] And I said it quite bluntly yesterday on an interview. Right. Talk therapy can't heal pre-verbal trauma. If we haven't got the words for it. And yet people have been trying that for an awful long time. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:15] But you're talking about EMDR, which is not straightforward talk therapy, right? Yes. It is a somatic therapy for sure. And I mean, I think a lot of it is you can go about it in so many different ways for it's also relational.

[00:13:39] So I think, you know, therapy for especially like early, you know, development trauma or pre-verbal, like you said, like before you can really express what happened or have a memory to tie to it. And I feel like therapies that are somatic therapies that are relational also are the kinds of therapies that really touch on that piece.

[00:14:04] Because, I mean, from an EMDR perspective, you wouldn't necessarily, you know, be able to fully say these are the emotions I had. These are the body sensations all of the time. Sometimes people might be able to do that, but it might more so be, okay, I feel like I've noticed I've had this continual negative thought about myself, you know, come up throughout my childhood in different ways.

[00:14:34] So it's like, it's almost like looking back on your life and noticing a pattern of like this thing has come up many times. And so you might not necessarily be able to say that negative thought about myself happened, you know, in that very early experience as a baby. But you may be able to, you know, heal that experience. And then that was, it's so difficult to explain.

[00:15:02] But if you kind of focus on that negative thought, a lot of times it does kind of do that backward healing. Or can I just stop you? Can I make it easy, easier? Or I think you make it easier for you. If we're tackling something somatically, if we're tackling trauma somatically, we're not going to know which trauma it's going to be. Right? Right?

[00:15:32] So the not good enough trauma. Well, sorry, the not good enough thought about ourself. Right? That's very different to the pure sensation of where's my mum gone? Right? I don't remember having that thought clearly because I didn't have thought. It was pre-verbal, it was pre-cognitive. I didn't have that thought. You know, I couldn't say where's my mum gone?

[00:15:58] But what I can do is I can think about our dogs, a puppy crying, our puppies crying the first night away from their mum. And I can think, well, was I like that? You know? But they're not good enough for their negative self-image. That's at a different stage.

[00:16:29] Surely there's a thought that builds when we think that the world is about, we think about our relinquishment. And I think because we think the world revolves around us, we think that it was something wrong with us. That's why we were relinquished. That's our meaning maker thing.

[00:16:56] But if we're tackling somatic, we're tackling the whole thing in one go, presumably. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, what you said about how it might not always, you know, it's almost like that sense of fear and like uncertainty and like, where's my mum gone? Like you said.

[00:17:19] You know, there's also some of the negative thoughts that you can draw upon are also just general like safety and security. So like that negative thought in that situation might've been, I am not safe. And that might be something that you've felt, you know, triggered a couple times in your life. And it brings up something. It's almost like it brings up something heavier than you think it should be in the moment.

[00:17:43] And that's a good indicator that, you know, it's connected to an earlier experience where you felt that same way. And so it might not necessarily have a very clear, it takes a while to kind of find what is, what is it exactly that I want to or need to process from this experience?

[00:18:04] Um, and I mean, that's a lot of trauma work too, is it's, you gain this like gradual awareness of different trauma reminders or triggers. And, um, you process through those, um, over time and you, uh, find a clearer indication of, oh, okay, I think this is what I need to process through. Um, yeah, if that makes sense.

[00:18:32] And so, yeah, I re and I really appreciate hearing, you know, your perspective, of course, cause I've worked in adoption for several years, but I don't have personal experience. And so it's like, I've only really seen the way others have, you know, worked through these things and processed it, but I don't have that personal experience. And so it's nice having this kind of like back and forth conversation with you about it. Yeah. And likewise, we're both learning.

[00:18:59] Um, the, so when, when I think about barriers to healing, the first one that comes up for me is wrong therapy or to put it more specifically, I guess, accurately wrong modality. Right.

[00:19:21] So, so if we have been going to talk therapy for 20 years and we still aren't making any progress with our pre-verbal trauma, it's because talk therapy can't touch pre-verbal trauma. Right. So I think of it in, in very clear, in very clear terms, in terms of the barriers to the barriers to healing.

[00:19:54] And my next question for you is what do you, what do you see as the, the barriers to healing? Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think what you said about wrong modality and like spending years in therapy, but not making progress. I think that is a very important thing to pay attention to.

[00:20:14] I think in some situations, talk therapy can work and can be useful, but even with some of my EMDR clients, we will start off with EMDR. And once they have an awareness of their triggers and things like that, it's almost like we move more into talk therapy, but we did some of that initial basis to help them, um, get unstuck is kind of what I say sometimes.

[00:20:36] Because a lot of times the initial traumas are kind of, they're somatic, they're trapped in our body. And so, you know, sometimes people need that somatic therapy to kind of almost, yeah, get them unstuck. And then sometimes talk therapy is more helpful for them, like moving down the line.

[00:20:58] Um, and I mean, I would also say like some, um, barriers, um, like I think, especially from a individual perspective, if somebody is not ready to form a new identity, to form a new perception of themselves. Um, a lot of times I've seen that I'm not really able to help them in that.

[00:21:24] Like they, they have to be ready to, um, let go. And I think a lot of times that can be, um, a little scary to like almost move forward and have that uncertainty of, I don't know what my life looks like whenever I'm not carrying this weight anymore. Um, or when I'm not defined by this situation in my life.

[00:21:49] Um, and, you know, I think adoption is different because it's, um, you know, adoption is something where it is, you know, a part of your identity, but it doesn't necessarily have to be like, I think there is a positive kind of perception of, yes, I was adopted. This is my story. I'm sharing my story and different perception where it's shameful and it feels like you can't talk about it and all these different things.

[00:22:16] Um, so it's not necessarily a fully new identity as much as a different perception, but sometimes for other people, they are not ready to put in the work. Work to, or allow themselves to move forward. Um, so I feel like that's kind of a big part of the barriers.

[00:22:37] Yeah. Do people, because I, for me, uh, if I'm in the therapist's room or if I'm emailing the therapist, right, I'm calling them up, whatever, then I'm ready. Right. Yeah.

[00:22:54] So, but I'm guessing from what you're saying that some people would be in touch and then during the intake call, it becomes obvious that they're not ready. It becomes obvious to you. Does that happen? Yeah. Yeah. Um, it becomes obvious to me at different points. I think in my work with them, there have been some times where I've worked with someone and I can tell they're really avoiding actually processing the trauma.

[00:23:23] They want to talk about, you know, the day-to-day crises, even though they know that we're in there for trauma work. So it's kind of like, you can see a slight kind of avoidance of the deeper work, um, which is, you know, natural. And sometimes that's something that I can call out and say, like, are you nervous about this? Like, do you want to talk through this?

[00:23:44] Um, and then there are some times where I'm in the trauma work with someone and, um, when you're doing EMDR, there's almost kind of this natural, uh, tendency for your brain to move towards healing, move towards a positive perception of yourself. Um, and sometimes I've, I've witnessed clients almost not allowing their brain to do that natural process.

[00:24:10] It's, it's hard to explain, but sometimes I think, um, it feels like they're not ready, um, to let go of that, not ready to allow themselves to move forward. And, um, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's not super, super often that when I'm in the work that happens, but I have seen it a couple of times. Um, so I think it's that sense of saying like, I'm ready.

[00:24:36] I know it's hard work and I always tell my clients that it's a sense of relief, but it's also so, it can be exhausting to process through so many things and to try to get to the other side. And, um, a lot of the time it is almost kind of a marathon until it clicks.

[00:24:57] And then you feel like you're able to kind of have a, like to heal more on the back end where it's just a lot easier than it was originally. Um, so that's something I tell my clients. And then, I mean, I also think specifically when it comes to adoption, um, you know, adoptive parents can be such a part of that initial healing, healing, um, for their children.

[00:25:25] Um, because like, I mean, for example, even just sharing with their child, their adoption story and speaking about it, you know, from a positive perspective of saying, you know, this is part of your story, but you know, it's not something to be ashamed of. And like, you know, it's just part of who, who you are. And that's a beautiful thing.

[00:25:48] And, um, I mean, obviously not dismissing the grief and the loss and all those things, but I think, I mean, it used to be common that parents wouldn't tell their children that they're adopted until they were an adult. And a lot of times that can make it harder for them to heal because there is that internal, that internalized piece of shame, um, that wouldn't be there if, uh, the parents had approached it differently.

[00:26:15] And there's, the, the jargon is late discovery adoptees, right? And, and, and it's, it, uh, the trust, trust disappears. Um, I, I, I've interviewed a few late discovery adoptees.

[00:26:30] Um, one of the things you talked about identity a couple of minutes ago, and, uh, as you were talking, I, the thing that I wrote down a couple of weeks ago popped into my head and it's, um, it was the words as an adoptee dot, dot, dot. Right.

[00:26:49] So if anybody, if an adoptee ever says to me as an adoptee, I, I know that they're, they, they're going to be bringing me some kind of trauma, trauma belief stuff is, is, is, is on its way. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm wondering, like, have I ever said that myself as an adoptee? Mm-hmm.

[00:27:19] And I, and I don't think, I don't think, I don't think I have, you know, but, but it's that, it's almost as if the belief is concretely tied to that identity. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's welded. Mm-hmm. It's, it's, it's welded in. All adoptees think like this. Like, so I was interviewing somebody yesterday and he said, given away, da, da, da, da, given away, da, da.

[00:27:48] And I said, given away? And, and he went, yeah, well, I was given away or, or, or, or some slight, um, I, or I was given up for adoption. Right. And so for me, uh, uh, uh, some kind of, uh, alarm bells are going off here. Mm-hmm. That, that. Yeah. That, that, those words, that language.

[00:28:18] Mm-hmm. Is, is telling me something about his overall view of the, uh, of the event. Mm-hmm. And, and he, he got really unlucky with his adoptive parents. Um, they were, yeah, this was a different era. He's even older, older than, even older than me.

[00:28:42] Um, so I don't know if you have any thoughts on that, anything that comes to mind. Yeah. No, that's really powerful to hear you say, because I think that really defines really well, you know, it's, it's all about the way that somebody reflects on an experience, an event in their life.

[00:29:06] Like, you know, I think also too, you know, you can tell that somebody's healed when they reflect on an experience with almost kind of like a lesson that they've learned. Or, um, like I used to be this way, I'm this way now. Um, and, um, it doesn't mean that the experience disappears by any means, but it's saying, you know, this is how I used to feel.

[00:29:34] And I, I feel like I'm a different person now, or that doesn't define me necessarily. Or, um, I've taken charge of that experience in my life and I've turned it into something else. Um, and, you know, I, I think, you know, people encountering adversity and, you know, difficulties in life, grief, all of those things, it happens to everyone at some point.

[00:29:58] And so I think, you know, healing is such a significant conversation because, um, you can't get to that place of thriving and, you know, really living your life, you know, truly as yourself, your authentic, confident self, um, without moving through that adversity and healing from it. And, you know, in the case of adoption, it's, it's such an early experience.

[00:30:26] And so, um, that's why it's so helpful for adoptive parents to be equipped to, um, you know, provide the resources for even those early healing experiences. Yeah. Wow. Um, there's so much there, Anna, ideas or questions are tumbling out across my head.

[00:30:51] Um, I want to take you back a little bit. You talked about how kids, how parents talk to their kids about adoption. And it was basically, you were talking about the good and the bad. And the question that came up to me was about the complexity.

[00:31:17] So a lot, a lot of people say these days, I don't know where this came from. Both things can be true. Mm-hmm. It seems to be, I've, I heard a social, another social, because you're a licensed clinical social worker, right? But I had another social worker says, as any good social worker will, will profess, both things can be true at the same time. And both good and bad.

[00:31:45] And that's got to be really tricky for kids, for younger kids to understand, right? Because they're in a black, kind of like a black and white mode. Mm-hmm. And I was also thinking reflecting, so I wanted to just mention that because I felt if I skipped past that, it was a little bit, it'd be remiss of me to do that. Mm-hmm.

[00:32:11] And I also wanted to reflect on my own, kind of, experience, which was, adoption just was. Yeah. It wasn't a great thing. It wasn't a bad thing. I didn't feel, I didn't feel grateful. I didn't feel ungrateful. Yeah. It just, it just kind of was, was what it was. Mm-hmm. So that's another way, another way on this. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:32:42] I mean, even what you're saying about how adoption just was, like, I mean, I've talked about the negative and the positive perception of self. But a lot of EMDR is also desensitization. So it's basically saying this experience does not bother me in the way that it used to. So there is that sense of neutrality where it's, this was just an experience in my life. It's not necessarily good. It's not necessarily bad.

[00:33:10] I mean, both things can be true, like you said. But it's saying this does not bother me in the way that it used to bother me. It does not distract me in the same way. Yeah. I've heard that, what you've just, some of them there in a couple of sentences. I've heard that called psychological flexibility. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:38] And I thought, that's great. And I thought, that's great. I need to look into this a little bit further. But when I'd looked into, you know, what Google says or, you know, what Google's AI says about psychological flexibility, it didn't capture that at all. It talked about something completely different. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:01] And yet, one of the biggest things for me seems to be in terms of how we feel about our feelings. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What we think about our thoughts. Mm-hmm. So, in the past, in a business context, you know, I've worried about worrying, right? So, I've been worrying about the future of the business, right?

[00:34:30] Mm-hmm. And then I think back to some, then I hear somebody say, you know, I hear there's a Roosevelt quote, the only thing we have to fear is fear itself, right? And I think, oh, I shouldn't be, I shouldn't be worrying about this worrying. I shouldn't be afraid of being afraid. Mm-hmm. Because if I'm afraid of being afraid, that goes counter to what Mr. or Mrs. Roosevelt, I don't know which one it was, said.

[00:34:57] And so, we kind of, as a mentor of mine says, we become a moron, right? We become a moron. We have more on our mind because it's not just our thoughts. It's our thoughts about our thoughts. It's not just our feelings. It's our feelings. It's our feelings. I wonder what you have to share on that. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:35:21] I mean, I think that's a really good summary because, I mean, that kind of brings it back to mindfulness in general because, I mean, a lot of times I'll tell even my talk therapy clients, you know, an emotion is just giving you information. And I've heard so many therapists say that. But it's like, if an emotion comes up, it's okay to just notice it, but don't give it too much power.

[00:35:44] And I think it's the same thing with thoughts that we have, especially thoughts about ourselves to say like, oh, this is a thought that I'm having. I wonder why I'm having that thought. It's like approaching it with curiosity versus allowing it to dictate the way that you think, feel, respond. And obviously it's going to do that in the moment.

[00:36:04] But to have that kind of almost outside perspective to respond to your thoughts and emotions as if they are, you know, as if you were in control and they're not in control. Yeah. It's fascinating stuff. Because we're very bothered about, as a human race, we're very bothered about how we feel. And we're very bothered about how we think.

[00:36:32] I was in a conference five, maybe five years ago or something like that. And somebody, the guy at the front of the stage, and maybe 200 people in this big room, it's, you know, talked about, asked a question like, does everybody agree that it,

[00:36:55] basically, like, does everybody agree that we have, that our thoughts are really important and we have to guard them? You know, something like that is almost as leading as that. Or who doesn't, right? Yeah. Who doesn't think thoughts are important? And I was the only one in the room. I put my hand up, right?

[00:37:18] And I felt, I felt a glow, I felt a glow of embarrassment, aloneness, or, you know, I'm the only freak here. But I was sure, and the guy looked at me like I was some sort of nutter. And I said, well, I said, all sorts of stuff goes through my head, right?

[00:37:44] I know that so much of it is total, I could use a wrong word, codswallop, right? That's a cute kind of 19th century British word. You know, I'm not bothered. Yeah. But the guy couldn't, the guy couldn't accept that because he was trying, he was on stage telling us that he could help us change our thoughts. And I thought, yeah, good luck with that, mate, right? Yeah. Off you go. Cheers, you know. Yeah.

[00:38:14] So, so there was a really, it stuck with me, right? Five, six, six years ago. The rush of thinking because we're told that we should change our feelings. We're told that we should, that we should change our feelings. We should change our thoughts and that we can be able to do that. Well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:38] And I think there is some element of like changing thoughts over time, which I mean, that's kind of, that's a different form of therapy. That's CBT. But I feel like even in that situation, it's because it's, you're giving the negative thoughts power. And so it's kind of like, it's allowing yourself to change those negative thoughts so that you have different emotions and you proceed in different ways.

[00:39:07] But I mean, what you're saying about like thoughts really aren't that important, I think is really true, honestly. Because it's like, if you are not giving your thoughts too much power, if you're not giving your emotions too much power, they also are not necessarily things that define you. Define who you are, define your self-esteem, define your self-worth. And so I think it is good to have that neutrality of, you know, these are things to be curious about. These are things that, you know, help me.

[00:39:37] These are information. But they don't have to be that powerful. They're just things. Yeah. I was listening to a book this morning and the guy came up with a great metaphor for this, which is not getting in in the taxi. It's thoughts as a taxi cab or an Uber to bring it more up to date. Not getting in, not getting in the Uber.

[00:40:08] So you can't determine which taxi is going to turn up. Yes. You can't choose your thoughts. But you can choose not to get on board with those thoughts. Yeah. I like that metaphor. I hadn't heard that one specifically before. But it's kind of like, yeah, your emotions presenting itself to you. Do you want to hop on board or not?

[00:40:37] And you don't have to. I also think. So I haven't heard that metaphor before either. But one metaphor that I have heard before is the bus stop for insights. Right. So I think insights change our thoughts. I don't think we change our thoughts. You know, like. But there are a lot of people out there with the affirmation stuff. I don't know. Oh, OK.

[00:41:07] I kind of looked at that a few years ago, 15 years ago, maybe. The affirmation stuff. It just didn't. I know some people dig it. They love it. But for me, you know, like to trying to change a thought like that. Trying to, you know, like trying to stop the tide coming. Yeah.

[00:41:33] I feel like that goes back to kind of what we talked about before about like the internal work and the external work. I feel like affirmations can be really helpful for people. But they're more on that external work side. And like you said, like our thoughts come from our insides. And so that's kind of where I would come in with more of the trauma work or EMDR of like, oh, I, you know, persistently have negative thoughts about myself.

[00:42:02] I don't really know how to change them and the affirmations aren't doing anything. Then it's kind of like, OK, it sounds like we need to reprocess some experiences in your life. But, yeah, I think it is difficult to, you know, fully take over your thoughts without deeper work a lot of the time.

[00:42:23] And so I think giving your thoughts less power is kind of a stepping stone in the right direction, even if you still struggle with negative thoughts about yourself. So you talked about the confident self. And what jumped out for me for that was a question around. Are you talking about IFS, internal family systems?

[00:42:50] I have not had much training in IFS, but I think it's really interesting. Yeah. And I think. The confident self, the uppercase self. Because you started your approach, I think the third or fourth thing that you said to me in terms of healing or even might have been the first one. See if I can find it on my notes here. Yeah. It was the first thing that you wrote.

[00:43:20] It's the first thing that I wrote down. It might not be the first thing you said, but you talked about authentic self.

[00:43:26] And what we often talk about IFS on the podcast, because for me, there is the genius of that Richard Schwartz guy is his characterization of what the authentic self, uppercase self is really like and the characterization of it. So one of the he's got the seven or eight C's and one of them is confident.

[00:43:56] For me, the genius is in that. And he's making a massive distinction between the feelings of the authentic self and the feelings that are trauma. Yeah. Yeah. And I've definitely really wanted to do more training on IFS because I think it is.

[00:44:25] It is such a key part of trauma work as well. And I mean, what I've heard from it in the experiences that I've had is it's almost like as you continue to do the parts work, you are trying to get to more of an integrated self. So it's like that is kind of more of the wholeness and the authentic self. Perception because you're addressing those individual parts.

[00:44:50] Yeah, it's it's big stuff. I wanted to come back with a couple of things that you that you mentioned earlier on. You talked about love and adoptive parents love for their kids and that's where they start from. And I skipped past that because I came up with a better question, I guess, in the moment. But have you heard this thing, people saying that love's not enough?

[00:45:20] People say that quite a lot, love's not enough. Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty good place to start with. It's yes, it's definitely a good place to start. I think I I mean, I've heard that mostly expressed from the perspective of, you know, love's not enough because especially if, you know, your child needs resources or if they come from.

[00:45:49] From a different cultural background, you need to have ways to incorporate that for I would say for identity formation, for a healthy identity formation, which is kind of what we've been talking about this whole time. And so in that way, I would say I understand what point it's getting across because it's like, oh, my gosh, this, you know, bold statement of love is not enough. Why are they saying that?

[00:46:13] But I do think that if love compels you to, you know, to incorporate those resources, to incorporate culture, to do the things that you that your child needs, then I think in that sense, it is enough. But I think it's saying that you need to allow the love to compel you in a sense. Wow. Wow.

[00:46:43] That's really powerful. Allow the love to compel you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it it has to move you towards something.

[00:47:03] And I mean, I think it's, you know, it's similar to what we've talked about with, you know, these adoptive parents. They can really be a part of that early identity formation in so many different ways.

[00:47:20] And, you know, I think if they allow love to move them towards their child in that way and seek out more education, more resources, all of those things, then I think it really does make a strong difference. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that I skipped past that I wanted to jump back on is you talked about gratitude at some point.

[00:47:48] And I, whenever gratitude comes up on the podcast and it comes up a fair bit, I always feel like saying, well, there's a challenge. Right. So some parents expect gratitude. And I've had a gazillion. I'm sorry. Somebody's vacuuming outside. I might view myself when we're not. When I'm. Yeah.

[00:48:18] So a lot of parents have told me in very strong terms that expect, expecting gratitude from your kids is just plain wrong, not totally misguided, barking up the wrong tree, but barking in, barking in the wrong forest. Right. Barking on the, barking on the wrong continent, nevermind the wrong tree.

[00:48:47] So I, that's what parents are telling me. So I wanted to, to, to reflect that back in case there are adopted parents doing listening now that have some expectation of gratitude. And the, the reason, so parents tell me that it's nuts.

[00:49:06] The, the other thing is that adoptees who are struggling and told that should be grateful, this, this kind of negation of their mood. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's too big. It's too big forces coming up against one and each other. And that is just going to end in disaster.

[00:49:31] I, I have heard so much about expect adoptees who are expected to be grateful. And I just think, well, that wasn't my experience. And yeah. It's so, so far removed from my own experience. I kind of struggle with it.

[00:49:49] And I really worry about it because I think that it can stop, it can make adoptees allergic to gratitude for anything in their lives, which is clearly, well, yeah. We're snookered again.

[00:50:10] If, if, if, if we're not, if we're allergic to gratitude, if we have this foundational revulsion, revulsion to gratitude, and it means that we can't be grateful for anything in our lives, then we're, yeah. Completely. Yeah. Yeah. No, I completely agree with everything you said.

[00:50:32] I, I mean, I think being a parent in general, and I think a lot of times, um, being an adoptive parent, just because of the differences and challenges that can come up, um, it's a marathon. And so a lot of that is, it's the continual pouring out of yourself, um, you know, for your child and giving to your child. And, um, I don't think any parent should necessarily expect gratitude from their child.

[00:51:01] That is something that hopefully will come when the child's an adult, but definitely as a child, I think that is something that should never be expected. And, you know, I think a lot of people who have experienced trauma, including adoptees, it's, it's this sense of like, well, I'm, I'm not grateful because I've had these really difficult, horrible experiences in my life. And I don't know how I could be grateful.

[00:51:27] And, um, I think it's so important to show that compassion and understanding and acknowledgement of like, this is a huge loss. I completely understand why you're feeling that way. And, you know, it's okay to feel that way for even a long time. It's okay to feel that way for a season of your life. It's okay to feel that way for years. It's okay to feel that way for a long time.

[00:51:53] But the, the more you're able to reflect on at least some areas of your life with gratitude, the more you're able to notice the little things that do make your life good or joyful. Or, I mean, even, I guess the saying of like little blessings in your life, even if you had these really difficult circumstances.

[00:52:13] Um, I mean, I don't remember the specifics, statistics on it or anything, but gratitude is so good for our mental health. It's, you know, helps us to, I think, just move forward because we see the positive. Um, and so it's, I guess when I'm talking about gratitude, I'm not necessarily saying like that somebody has to reflect on their trauma with gratitude.

[00:52:40] Um, I hope that eventually they will reflect on it with less, you know, less hurt and with more of a understanding of, I learned something from this. But, um, I think it's more so about having a general, um, grateful approach to life. Thanks, Anna. Um, we've got to bring it in there.

[00:53:06] Um, great to speak with you and I look forward to speaking to you again soon. And, uh, thank you. Thank you listeners too. You've, you've been a star and a really, really great, fantastic, um, fantastic illuminating conversation. So, oh, thank you so much. Yeah, this is so wonderful. Thank you so much for having me on. This was just such a wonderful conversation and I've learned so much from you too. So, great. Thanks a lot, Anna. Thanks listeners. Take care. Bye-bye.