Transformation With Derek Tan

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Derek, Derek Tan. Looking forward to our conversation today, Derek. Yeah, me too. It's going to be good. Yeah, so Derek is a dad through adoption. You've got five kids he adopted and he started off fostering before you adopted and he also leads the foster coalition down in Alabama.

[00:00:29] So we've got some good friends down there from Lifeline and Derek and his colleagues do some collaboration work. So that's great to hear. So the big question, the one that we like to start off with, Derek, the thriving question, what helps you thrive? What helps me thrive personally? I think it's important that I bring, I think community. I think it's a great opportunity.

[00:00:59] A willingness to let people in. Because I don't think, I don't think we can do it alone. I think we are, as individuals, I think we have a limited capacity to add value to ourselves. And there's a difference between success and significance.

[00:01:18] And I think when you break that threshold of success into being significant, that's where thriving starts to show itself. It's evident in our life when we're thriving. And I think that is the difference between significance and success. So it takes others, honestly. So how do you see these different things, then, success and significance? How are they different to you?

[00:01:47] Well, the way I see it is success is adding value to yourself. And whether it's wealth, health, you know, mental health, physical health. But success is the acquisition of outside things that can really just, it's you working on yourself. Significance involves others. I think significance is when you're healthy enough to be able to start adding value to others.

[00:02:16] And that's where, I think that's where the joy in life starts to come to the surface. Is when it's no longer just about ourselves, but about adding value to the space that we enter. Making things better than when we encounter them. Whether it's relationships, environments, situations, and stuff like that. So significance, I see it as outward. Success, I see it as inward.

[00:02:46] Right. Yeah. And does that adding value, does that play a big part of thriving for you then? Yeah. Yeah, it does. There's, I think part of thriving is fulfillment. And as I also think that the greatest fulfillment in life is elevating others and lifting them up

[00:03:09] and encouraging others, walking alongside them in trials and just, so when I say adding value to others, it's things of that nature. Yeah. Okay. So presumably you're talking about the people that you work with. You're talking about your kids. You're talking about the different people within the coalition, the whole shebang. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:32] Anybody and everybody, you know, whether it's someone that seems like they're kind of down and out in a gas station parking lot late at night, or, you know, if it's a family or an advocate that we're partnering with at Foster Coalition. I think it's a family, my own family, my friends, you know, my peers at church, whoever it may be. It's everybody. Yeah. And what gets in the way of that?

[00:04:02] What gets in the way of that? Myself, I think first and foremost, I think selfishness can get in the way of that. Um, I think, you know, if there's circumstances or trials that we go through in life, whether they're, um, self-inflicted or, you know, things out of our control, um, they can hinder. Um, they can hinder that for sure.

[00:04:30] Um, when we start to believe lies about ourself, whether it's something we've come up with or we start to believe, um, that diminishes who we are, our identity. Um, or if it's, you know, others speaking things over us that may not be true, but we choose to believe. I think that really starts to, um, that can hinder that a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:56] When did you see this, uh, when, when did you see this significance versus success? Uh, that, so what helped you see that? Do you, was there a particular moment or, or, or, or moments when you, you, you, there was a shift in the way that you saw life? Um, yeah, there's, there's a definitive moment.

[00:05:22] And then there was a process that followed that, you know, I'm a, I'm a follower of Jesus and I give it's, it's all him. Um, but for about 18, 19 years, you know, I was living a life of drug addiction and violence, um, and selfishness, living in fear. Just, uh, I was very guarded, you know, friends were not necessarily friends.

[00:05:47] They were acquaintances and, um, just people in my sphere. But, uh, yeah, September 13th, 2010, my wife found me laying in a pool of vomit gasping for air. Um, that's kind of where my addiction and that lifestyle had brought me to. Um, and it was shortly after that, you know, I was trying to, um, win my wife back over because I was kind of destroying everything I touched.

[00:06:13] But, uh, um, I ended up, uh, getting plugged into a church and just started hearing answers, um, to questions I'd always kind of had or ignored. Um, and in July of 2011, you know, that was my encounter with Jesus. And so that was that definitive moment. I was at a youth camp, um, just kind of serving.

[00:06:38] And, um, it was on a Friday night with about, there was about 200 middle school kids in the room. And, um, that's where God met me. And so that was the definitive moment where the underlying desire, um, to change and knowing it wasn't about me anymore.

[00:06:59] Um, and then, you know, over the days and months and years to come, there's just been this transformative, um, process that I've gone through that God has just kind of walked with me through. And, um, the selfishness just kind of started to shy away. And it wasn't long after that where my wife and I started doing foster care. Um, I wanted nothing to do with it, honestly, because that selfishness was still there.

[00:07:26] And, um, but yeah, we brought in three little girls and I'll tell you what, when these, um, we had a five or six or a five or seven and an eight year old dropped off at our house on a Friday night, just before midnight. And within a few days, I just, I would, I realized like I would do anything for those little girls.

[00:07:48] And I think that's really where the shift was where, um, I had these three little people that needed safety, security. Um, they needed to be loved and cared for, and they were put in my care alongside my wife. And that's where I realized this, it's not just about me. There's, there's something bigger at play.

[00:08:12] And I think that's where my heart to serve others really started to, um, that's where it was, it was heavy, but it was transformative. And that's where that desire started to kind of manifest. Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. It really is. It's, uh, uh, never would have saw myself there, you know, or getting to that point. Um, but God's good. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:42] So much. We think, uh, we have to sort out for, for ourselves and then God's changed it all for you. Yeah, absolutely. It's, um, it's, it's his plans. Um, my plan for my life was, was it, it, it paled in comparison to what he's, um, what he's walked me through and where I'm at. So, um, yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:12] So when did you start, um, uh, adopting you and your wife start adopting, Darren? Yeah. So, yeah. So, um, so we start, uh, our first adoption, man, after adopting five kids, it all gets a little hazy, but, uh, our first adoption was July of 2013. Um, and the little girl stayed with us.

[00:09:39] Um, she came to us Christmas Eve actually of 2012. So that, um, and that's my middle daughter. Um, she, uh, she came to us a few months after that first trio that was placed with us, um, returned back to their mother. And, um, so yeah, she moved in with us on Christmas Eve, 2012. We end, she was our first adoption in July of 13. Right. Okay.

[00:10:09] So, yeah, I mean, you're, you're 13 years onto this. So, um, what, what have you learned about what helps the, the kids thrive? Yeah, it's, um, I think, uh, it's, it's the environment. You know, if, if you look, I kind of compare it to like a plant or a tree. Um, it has to have the right environment. It, it, it needs to be safe, secure.

[00:10:38] Um, it needs to have the right outside factors like nutrients, um, and, and care. Honestly, you know, there's, there's, I think there's a baseline of existence, um, where sure you might be safe. Um, and you, you know, you might have the, um, the right sustenance to continue to exist, but to thrive.

[00:11:02] I think, uh, for a child, there needs to be extra, um, it needs to be the quality of nutrients and, um, a nurturing environment. So I think it's a lot of, what I've learned is that outside factors, um, play heavily into someone's ability to thrive. I think everyone has the ability to thrive.

[00:11:26] And, um, but back to why I think community is important is the community is what's going to help bring some of those outside factors to empower someone to thrive. Yeah. Yeah. And, and how, uh, what, what have you learned about yourself through this, uh, through those last 13 years? Wow. That's a loaded question, Simon. Um, you know, when we first got our kiddos,

[00:11:56] you know, it was adopting five kids over a matter of about four, four and a half years, something like that. Um, we were, uh, my wife and I were just doing the best we could as, as parents, as guardians, as leaders. Um, and then, you know, when, when, when a child, all, all five of our children have gone through, um, traumatic experiences.

[00:12:23] And we, we, we weren't really well informed on what trauma and response looks like. Um, and we were just kind of navigating it. Um, and it, it, it, it, it took a long time to get there. But, um, what I've learned about myself is that you have to be a perpetual learner.

[00:12:52] You, um, you, it's, you need to be willing, you need to set aside your ego or your pride or, um, you know, you, you, you may think you're right or you're doing something good. And that may be true, but there's always a way to be better. There's always a way to be a better father, um, a better husband, um, to suit the needs of the people that, um, you've been charged to take care of and steward. So, um, we can always be better stewards.

[00:13:20] And I think learning is, is key. Yeah. Um, so what have you learned around that trauma stuff? Um, well, I'm still learning. Um, I learned that, uh, with having five kids, everyone responds differently.

[00:13:40] Um, it, it has similar effects, you know, on, on, on the psyche and, um, you know, whether it's physical abuse, uh, mental or, uh, you know, just verbal abuse, emotional. Um, the, every individual, well, for one, their experience is unique, right? And the individual is unique and the circumstances they find themselves in moment to moment are all unique.

[00:14:06] Um, so every individual is going to, um, respond or react to things in their life based on that trauma in a different way. So there's no true cookie cutter approach to, um, navigating a relationship with a child that, that's has trauma.

[00:14:27] Um, and I think one other thing to answer the question is one thing I learned is that I, I had childhood trauma that I had just kind of, you know, I, I entered church world and, uh, started, um, my journey with Jesus. And it took, I don't think, I don't, I think it was about eight years into parenting where I realized like, man, I got stuff in my life that I need, that I've got to address and, and navigate and, um, and work on and deal with.

[00:14:56] So, um, I think that's one thing I learned is, you know, um, I, I, I have, I shared some of the, uh, traumatic experiences, um, that some of my kids have had. And so, yeah. And so what did, what did that process look like, uh, addressing that? So it was, um, uh, it was invisible to you, right? You, you, you couldn't see it. And then. Yeah.

[00:15:25] You, you did see it. And once you started seeing it, what, what, what did the process look like? Um, the process of processing, processing or, or healing it or however. Yeah. Dealing. Um, back to the beginning of our conversation, um, community.

[00:15:46] It was, you know, I, I, uh, I invited, um, people that I trusted in to just talk about it, whether it was my wife or, you know, um, brothers at church that I was close to. Close friends. Um, just letting them know like, Hey, this is, I just realized this is something that I've gone through and it's, uh, there's hurt.

[00:16:14] There's, um, negative. There's a lot of not negative response, but just, um, there's something there inside, whether it's in my mind or my emotions. There's just something there that doesn't belong there and that I don't need to hold onto anymore. Um, just the, the, the weight, right. The weight that someone carries, so to speak.

[00:16:39] So, um, the process was just talking it through and leaning into biblical truth because paired with the experiences that I went through, there is a lie that I would believe about myself. Whether it, you know, it's, um, I'm not good enough. I'm not worthy. I'm, um, I'm just an object. Um, just kind of, um, you know, no one loves me. I can't trust anybody. Things like that.

[00:17:08] That's, those were just kind of underlying, um, thoughts or emotions that I would have. Um, so inviting others to bear, not bear the burden with me, honestly, just getting it out. Um, talking about it and then allowing others to encourage, um, primarily God, just getting in his word and learning, believing what he says about me.

[00:17:36] You know, my, this, my, our identity is in him. He's the one who decides who we are, not someone who has hurt you or victimized you. Um, it's, uh, so yeah, just kind of truth, just seeking truth about myself and about, um, the things that I've gone through and forgiveness. Um, forgiveness is really hard.

[00:18:04] Um, it's an ongoing process and, uh, but forgiving, it was, I think the most important aspect of it, you know, not, not acknowledging that, what those individuals did is okay. Not, um, not trying to ignore the emotion, but just understanding that it's okay to feel the feels.

[00:18:29] Um, and I don't have to bear the burden of resenting that person because that's hurting me more than them. So just moving forward and forgiving was a huge part of that processing. Yeah. Yeah. And you said it was eight years before this, you became aware of this stuff. So do you remember what prompted that, uh, uh, awareness of the internal stuff? Um, I do.

[00:18:53] I was, uh, I was leading a men's small group at my church and one of the guys, um, kind of stuck around after everyone had left and wanted to talk. And, uh, he was talking about how he was sexually abused as a child and physically abused and all this stuff. And, um, I was just kind of, you know, just, just encouraging him and loving on him.

[00:19:18] And in that conversation, it was just this realization that I just kind of blocked out. I was like, Oh my gosh, like that this happened to me as well. And it was, it was a instantaneous, like it was, it was, it just happened all of a sudden. Um, and then that night after he had left, I, you know, I was at the house and I was talking with my wife and I was just like, Hey, we need to talk about something. Wow.

[00:19:49] Um, and I brought it up. So it was, it was interesting that, um, it was, it was resurfaced as I was trying to, as I was coming alongside someone else and helping them navigate it. It was, um, well, what had been hidden, like you had said, was, was brought out of the darkness into the light so that I could address it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, there's that, um, have you heard that?

[00:20:13] There's a quote and, uh, until we make the subconscious conscious, it will rule our life. And we will call it fate. And a young quote that I, uh, I come back to again and again, because we don't see the stuff. It's, it's, it's in the dark until it comes into the light.

[00:20:36] And it's almost seems to me almost as if that, that, that process just keeps on going and going and going. Right. So it's like, um, yeah, I, I came up with an analogy for this last year sometime and it's, it slipped my mind, but you know, like when you're in a canteen and there's a, uh, you collect your tray and there's a load of stack of dinner plates. Yeah. Yeah. And it's on like a spring loaded pile.

[00:21:06] Oh yeah. Yeah. And you take, you know, the, the, the one plate comes up, you take that and then it, then the next plate comes off for the next person queuing to get there. So they have food as well. Well, that that's to me what those, those, um, subconscious traumas seem to be that it's that that's the, you're talking about perpetual learning for me.

[00:21:32] The perpetual learning is the perpetual surfacing of stuff that you hadn't seen. And then you see it and you deal with it. And then the next thing comes up and the next thing comes up. So it's either a game of whack-a-mole, right? Or, or, or, or it's the plate one. Um, I think the plate one kind of works because trying to, trying to whack trauma doesn't really, doesn't really work. No, no, it really doesn't. And that's where it does take effort.

[00:22:01] It, it, you have to be intentional once you realize, once it, you know, it's, once it's conscious and, and it's there, it's no longer subconscious. Once you realize it, um, you, you, you gotta deal with it. You, you gotta deal with it. Um, because it'll just keep piling on. It'll do that pile of plates will get you. And, and, and there's going to be so much tension on that spring under those plates at some point. It can't carry the weight.

[00:22:31] So, um, yeah, there has to be, um, you have to on purpose deal with it. Um, and that's hard. It's scary. Um, sometimes I think anger or fear, um, is comfortable for individuals cause they don't know any better. And, um, they don't, it's not that they don't want to change.

[00:22:54] It's just, you, you've been so conditioned to, um, just existing the way you are that you're like, it's fine. And it's, this is okay. I'm okay. I'm okay. I'm fine. Um, but there's so much more. Yeah.

[00:23:22] One of the things that fascinates me is the difference between, uh, or, or, or is there a difference? Right. So adoption from foster care adoption of, uh, to what extent is it different? Perhaps is a better question. So, you know, I, I was adopted as a, as an infant, right? So I went home with my mum and dad at, uh, four, four weeks, just after four weeks old.

[00:23:49] And, um, I'd been in short-term foster care for, for, um, for, I don't know how many weeks, right? So maybe I had a week with my birth mum and then maybe three weeks of the foster, short-term foster care. And then I went into, uh, then I went to the adoption agency was, um, I, I, I didn't become aware of the adoption trauma until I was 40. Yeah. It was hidden to me. It was hidden to me. It was subconscious.

[00:24:18] And, and, yeah. Um, and I, I, I wonder what, to what extent. And so what, what my generation of adoptees call that is coming out of the fog, right? So coming out of the fog is the moment when we become conscious of the trauma that was previously subconscious.

[00:24:40] That, that, and the, the big one is, you know, the, cause you don't just come out of the fog once and done, but there's a big one that usually arrives. Right. And then, but then the plates keep on coming up as well. Right. So, um, I wonder what, what it's like without going into, obviously, into specifics, um, about your kids.

[00:25:06] What, what do you see about them, uh, becoming conscious of their stuff or is it, have they been conscious of it so long that they don't have that coming out of the fog moment that I did? Yeah. Um, so we've, we've been very open about it with our children. We've, we've never hid the fact. Um, and so, you know, my youngest now, she was, uh, two months old when we got her.

[00:25:36] She's now 11 and my oldest is 18 and, you know, we got three more in between. So, um, it's been an open conversation in our home. Um, you know, and sometimes they'll ask questions and a lot, we just don't know the answers. A lot of, you know, the questions usually, um, what was my, you know, what was my bio mom like, or what was my, my dad like, or, um, do you know where they're at? Do you know what they're doing? And, you know, a lot of times we don't have the answers to that, um, question.

[00:26:06] Um, the, the thing we stand firm on is that, um, we have no doubt that they loved you. Um, they just might not been able to show it, you know, in, in an appropriate way or the right way or the way that you needed. Um, so we, we don't, we don't demonize by any means their, uh, their parents.

[00:26:27] Um, and it's, uh, but I do think, um, especially my oldest son, he's 18 and he's kind of having that coming out of the fog moment. It was, um, you know, he, he hated his mom, um, just, just hated, um, and that actually affected his relationship.

[00:26:52] That was kind of transposed onto his relationship with, uh, with my wife, um, you know, his adoptive mom. And, um, and that's okay. Like we, like we understood it. It still made it hard. Um, and you know, he's, he's now on his own and he's, he's doing life.

[00:27:11] And I think every single one of our kids, regardless of whether they have the knowledge of being adopted or not, um, they are going to have that coming out of the fog moment, right? They're, um, because the reality is they have that experience of, um, that they're, they're, they're going to need to grieve, um, or whatever, whatever word you want to put there. They're going to have to go through it and process it.

[00:27:39] Um, and I think the best thing we can do as parents is just be available and supportive and understanding and never try to manipulate or be divisive or, um, anything. Yeah. Yeah. That's, we just try to let our kids know, like we actually encourage our kids. Um, Hey, like when you're, you may go looking for your biological parents and we encourage that and support it.

[00:28:05] Um, we don't know what you'll find, you know, we don't, we, we like, cause we don't know, we don't know them. Um, but, uh, yeah. So adoption has been an open conversation in, in our home. They all know, but they are all still going to really know that like when they, they'll internalize it at some point. Um, and you know, we're just going to be there for them in whatever way we need to, when that happens.

[00:28:36] Yeah. It's, um, I can't believe I never had this conversation of this sort of stuff before Derek. Um, the idea that, that, that they are, they're in the fog, despite what happened to them before they were removed from their biological family. Despite the fact that it wasn't, they weren't like me yet.

[00:29:05] Um, well, your youngest, you said she came at two months, but some of the, some of the other kids that came, they were much older than that. Yeah. Yeah. So my youngest came to us at two months old. My, um, my oldest two are biological siblings. They were five and four when they moved in with us. Um, my middle daughter, she was two.

[00:29:34] No, she was 18 months when she moved in. And then, uh, my youngest son, he was almost, he was just a few months shy of three years old when he moved in. So. So there's still, but that, that's still, even the ones that came to you at four and five, you still think that they are unaware of their, of their trauma or the cause of their trauma?

[00:30:02] Um, I, I don't think they're unaware that it exists. I think they're still trying to figure out how to live with it, how to deal with it. And how to continually, like just how to navigate it. Um, and it's, uh, and, and I don't think they know.

[00:30:31] They might, I could be wrong. Um, they know that they've been through trauma. They have, you know, especially my oldest two, they have very vivid memories of things that no kid should. Um, but I don't want to apply. I just want to be clear. I don't want to pry here, Derek. Oh, no, no, no, no. You're, you're, you're totally fine.

[00:30:51] They, uh, I don't think that they understand yet the weight of how it affects, um, their, their actions or their choices or their reactions to situations. Um, you know, we've, we've had that open conversation about trauma and let, you know, they know what they've gone through.

[00:31:14] Um, and there's, you know, when you have a 17 year old, um, emotionally charged, uh, teenage girl, um, and there is a massive response. If you try, I mean, again, this is unique to us. If you try to tag that, like, oh, that's trauma response. She doesn't care in the moment. All she knows is she's feeling what she's feeling, you know?

[00:31:41] So, um, I think, uh, just, I think grace is the most important thing to offer our children, um, that have been adopted, um, in general. Because if they know what loves feels like, they know what a safe place feels like. If they know what grace feels like, um, they know where to go and where to get it when things do get hard.

[00:32:09] And when they do come to the point of, um, where you did at 40, right. That coming out of the fog. Um, so for them to have, um, to know where love and grace comes from, I think is really important. Yeah. The, the, the sense I'm getting Derek, which I love your, um, your thoughts on is perhaps I was totally unaware of the trauma.

[00:32:38] Whereas your kids were aware of the trauma, but perhaps are underestimating it. It's impact. Is that, is that kind of in the right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's, um, and that's, that's what I'm, we're trying. I'm trying to, that's, you nailed it a hundred percent.

[00:32:57] Um, but again, as a parent, it's, it's, there's a fine line between educating your kid on trauma and helping them navigate life. Um, and I, one of my kids specifically, if, um, if, if we kind of educate, if, if we pair the two, like parenting and educating about trauma, um, that could potentially get weaponized as an excuse. Right.

[00:33:26] Like there's, it could, that, that understanding of that could be, uh, manipulated. Um, so it's, I, I, I think, I think every individual, and I could be wrong. This is just kind of my own stance on this.

[00:33:45] I think every individual that's gone through trauma, um, has to take the action and needs to navigate it again, you know, in fighting outside factors when through community and learning. Um, but I do think there's a, there's a line where, um, we're, as a parent, we are here to steward the children we have. And, um, I don't think we necessarily need to be the educators of trauma and helping them in understand the ins and outs and counseling them.

[00:34:15] Um, you know, a lot of our kids are in counseling and that's important. That's where the village, I believe comes into play in the community that, um, I could tell my kid one thing, someone else could tell them the exact same thing. And that kid's going to come back and just say, Oh, guess what? So-and-so told me about it. And it's like, I'm just glad that they heard something good and believe it, even though I've said it, you know, it doesn't, I don't have to be the hero in that story as long as they're growing and maturing.

[00:34:44] And, um, on a path to thrive. Yeah. Yeah. One of the things I heard, this was, uh, this is a, a, um, a guy that I listened to a lot on an educator guy. Um, uh, yeah, uh, and he, he, he talks about, uh, helping kids separate their, their feelings from who they are.

[00:35:12] So, uh, this is very young kids, right? So maybe four or five. Um, and they would say, and he, he, he would, uh, he would say to them, Oh, um, uh, anger's come, anger's come for dinner. Right. Anger's not who you are. Right. It's kind of a- It's a guest. It's a guest. A guest. Yeah. It's come to stay. Right. But it, it, it, it, we don't, it doesn't need to stay. It comes and goes.

[00:35:41] It's, it's helping kids separate how they feel from who they are. Yeah. That's yeah. I love that. I love that. Because feelings do come and go. They do. Yeah. They, they, they do. And, um, you know, you talked about addiction at the top of the, uh, at the top of the interview. I read a book about a guy.

[00:36:11] He, so he, this guy was, became an, uh, uh, he was an adrenaline junkie that became a junkie junkie. And they had this nuts idea, right. To, to try heroin for two weeks to see what it was like. So completely crazy guy. Five years later, you know, he, he, he hit, he bought, he hit bottom. And, and, and, and, and bounce back.

[00:36:38] But the, the books, I think it was eight hours long or 11 hours long, something like that. And he describes the hitting, he describes the, the, the moment of realizing that he was bigger than his addiction. And that's kind of all he says, right? And he just says, and in that moment, I realized that I was bigger than my addiction.

[00:37:03] And, and that was the moment where, where, where the bounce started. And as I was sharing that with somebody last year, um, she said, we're bigger than our trauma. So bigger than, this kid's, this, this guy's bigger than his addiction. Um, we're bigger than our trauma.

[00:37:31] And, and this, this was a woman who had been, uh, trafficked by her own mother. So her, her mother, so she was, unfortunately she died early this year. Um, but she was in her early sixties. Uh, and, um, her, her mum was, uh, was an adoptee, you know, back in the day. So if she was 60, this woman was probably born in the twenties, right? Something like that perhaps. Um, twenties, maybe thirties.

[00:38:03] When clearly there was no knowledge around the stuff that we're talking about now. So she, she, she lived out the trauma that she'd obviously had a really tough time. She mothered in a, in a terrible way with traffic and her daughter. But you know, the, the idea that we're bigger than our trauma to me is bigger than addiction,

[00:38:30] bigger than our addictions, bigger than our trauma is really profound. Because I know what it likes, I, I, I, I know what it's like. It likes, it's like, it feels like to be caught in a wave, right? You caught, you caught in a wave. So I'm, I'm, I'm on a lilo, right? In the sea. And there's a, I'm trying to ride the waves. But then it flips me and I'm, uh, and the, the, the wave spinning me round and I'm gasping for breath.

[00:38:58] And I don't, you can't tell which way is up. But that, that feels like in the middle of the, in the middle of that wave is like being in the middle of the trauma. And I know that that feels very differently to ride it, riding the wave on your lilo, right? Right. I would never progress to surfing or anything like that. I don't have the body, you know, like I don't have the kind of body awareness and stuff like that to do that. I don't have the balance and stuff like that.

[00:39:24] But, um, there's something, there's something huge in realizing that, that we're bigger than our feelings, that we're bigger than our addictions and we're bigger than our trauma. Uh, and, and, and, and, and how we, how we get others to, to, to, to, to see that is, um, it is huge.

[00:39:50] Um, albeit I take the point that you're saying some things are better, uh, some things are better off being, for my kid to hear from a therapist or somebody at church or somebody within the village than to hear from you because they're gonna hear it differently. Right. Yeah.

[00:40:16] It's, um, I think in a nutshell with my kiddos, um, they're gonna remember the feelings more than they're gonna remember all the download of knowledge or wisdom that I, that we try to put in there. Right.

[00:40:29] So, um, I think that's where, you know, creating positive memories, making, um, conversations a safe place and, um, just ultimately living life with them in a way that they know that you got their back, that you, that you're there for them.

[00:40:48] Um, now yes, discipline and correction is a thing, but if, if we're trying to create some sort of perfect human being out of this little kid that we have, that's, that's an impossible task. Um, so, um, creating the environment where that kid can thrive and where they know they can always go back to, um, and, and that's in the context of the relationship we have with that kid, right?

[00:41:14] That's the environment is the relationship that's so more, so much more important. Um, because if, if, you know, when our kids are grown, if they don't have those experiences, if they don't know that as parents, we're a safe place, especially as adopted children, right? They're, they're, like we said, we're going to go, they're going to go, they're going to have that coming out of the fog moment. And if they don't have a safe place to go back to, then they're going to run to something else.

[00:41:41] And, you know, that's where, um, any sort of just dysfunctional lifestyle can step in, whether it's addiction or, you know, or just tearing everyone down around them to feel successful climbing a corporate ladder, whatever it might look like is, uh, so I think kids always need that safe place to go to.

[00:42:05] Um, that is external, not internal, because if it's internalized, um, that's, I believe that's an indicator that they don't have a safe place, that they don't trust the people around them to talk about things or share things. So, yeah. Yeah. One of the biggest things that I hear from adoptees of my generation is because there was no, their parents invalidated their feelings, right?

[00:42:32] So it wasn't, it wasn't safe to talk about feelings because you were going to, those feelings were going to get invalidated. Um, and the parents were coming from that place because they didn't have the trauma knowledge because trauma wasn't a thing, right? Trauma in adoption wasn't really thought to be a thing until 1993 when this book came out from Nancy Verrier about the, the primal wound.

[00:43:00] Um, and she, and Nancy Verrier is talking about relinquishment trauma, not trauma due to neglect or abuse, right? So she's purely talking about the loss of a birth mother, not, not the circumstances that led to a removal by children and family services or, you know, um, so she's purely talking about relinquishment trauma. So that wasn't a thing until 1993.

[00:43:27] So at that time I was 26, right? So it didn't miss, missed, missed the boat. So baby scoop era adoptees, like kids like me and born in their sixties or seventies that they, they had, uh, some of them had some stuff going on for them, but the parents had no context for that. And therefore invalidated the feelings. Yeah.

[00:43:55] Um, and, and how far we've come right in since 1993 and how much further that we have to go in terms of, you know, you talked about, you talked about perpetual learning for you, right? Um, yeah. Perpetual learning for society. You know, this, that, that, that Bessel van der Kolk, what body keeps a score. That's only 11 years old, right? That book's only 11 years old.

[00:44:21] So, um, talking about trauma somatically, uh, it is in the same way as Nancy Verrier's primal wound kind of caught the public's imagination about, or caught the adoption public's, uh, imagination about adoption trauma.

[00:44:37] Then Bessel van der Kolk's body keeps a score that kept, that, that, that, that caught the public's imagination, 5 million copies or whatever it sold about trauma that is somatic, i.e. in the body, rather than being a psychological, um, phenomenon only. Yeah. It's huge stuff.

[00:45:03] I wanted to make one more comment is, um, one thing I've learned as a foster parent and as an adoptive parent is that, uh, our, you know, our sentiment was we just wanted to give them a normal life. And that's not possible because the foundation in and that's not normal.

[00:45:22] Now it's not to say that the foundation cannot be firm and that they can't live a great life, but if you try to approach it, um, and try to take a traumatized child and put them in a cookie cutter called normal, that's, or it's, it's just, it's not, um, we got to meet them where they're at, not try to invite them where we think they need to be. Um, so that's, I think that's another thing that I've learned over the years. Yeah. What about vulnerability about your own stuff?

[00:45:52] Cause that, that must be a, a tricky thing, a balanced thing or not. I don't know. Me and wife, my wife and I don't have any kids. So when I get into the kind of the parenting space, I sometimes get a little bit lost. Right. Um, but to what extent do you share your stuff with your kids? Um, I'm an open book. Uh, it's, it's interesting.

[00:46:18] Um, so my kids know the life that I used to live. Right. And, um, when they were, especially, you know, as they're kind of getting into their teens, I'll share more. It's age appropriate. Um, but you know, my oldest son, I actually, um, he was estranged for nearly a year and finally heard back from him just a few weeks ago. And it was great to hear from him.

[00:46:42] And in his, in the conversation, he, uh, um, and he, he, he validated the fear that I had when, cause he would ask questions. And I never wanted to communicate that I had secrets that I wasn't willing to share with him. Right. So, um, he'd talk about like, Oh, did you ever get in fights? Or did you ever do this? Or did you ever do this? And usually the answer was yes.

[00:47:05] And I had to figure out a way to package it that would make it, um, that would not glorify it in a teenager's mind. Um, and, and, and there was always the disclaimer, like, I'm not proud of this. I'm not supportive of this behavior, but I would answer his questions candidly, whether it was, uh, you know, different drug use or experiences, whatever.

[00:47:28] But when I recently talked to him again, he's 18, um, he was like, yeah, dad, you know, I just remember, you know, you would tell me all these stories of all the stuff you've been through. And so I'm not going to lie. I thought it was pretty cool. And I just said, man, that was why I kept telling you, like, I'm not proud of this. I don't support this. And, you know, he's got a good head on his shoulders. He's like, no, I know what, like I'm starting to realize now it's, it's, it's not, it's not the life I want to live. Um, cause he's struggled a lot.

[00:47:58] And, but back then he thought it was the coolest thing, you know? So, um, I will always err on the side of being transparent because if I'm not willing to share who I am or how I'm feeling or the, my experiences with my kids, I can't turn around and expect them to do the same with me.

[00:48:15] So it's more lead by example, um, throw the disclaimers in there and work with what you got rather than, um, try to, I think kids are going to trust someone that doesn't have it all together more than they're going to trust someone that seems like has achieved a state of existence that is impossible for them to achieve. Right.

[00:48:38] There's just a rift or a chasm there that, um, could be divisive and could hurt a relationship. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Um, so we're coming up on time, Derek, is there anything else that you'd like to share? Thank you for sharing about the vulnerability. I, um, yeah, I, I, I was just, I was brought up very. Uh, uh, honest and open.

[00:49:05] Um, my dad didn't actually tell me a lot about his fears, you know? Um, he wasn't that open about that stuff. We had this, um, had this moment. So unfortunately we lost him like coming up 10 years ago, had this moment, maybe 15 years ago when he was talking about fear.

[00:49:29] And, and he was, he, he said, I felt that, um, I thought fear was a good thing in, in, in, in business. Right. So my mom and dad ran a business together. I thought that, thought fear was a good thing in business, but it, because it kept me on my toes. And, um, um, I said, yeah, it might, it might have kept you on your toes, dad.

[00:49:55] Um, but he, but probably stopped you enjoying life to some extent. And a little tear came to his eye. Uh, I, that's a pretty, that was a rare occurrence in the, in the 49 years that I, uh, I knew my, my dad. Right.

[00:50:18] Um, and I, but I do remember one thing when we were on, on holiday about, you know, him once mentioning, uh, this was, you know, this is in the seventies. Right. So there's, there's no mobile phones or everyone. We're in, you know, we're three hours, three hours flight from, from home in, in the Mediterranean. And my dad's saying, my dad said to me, he was obviously just pondering. It's just that I'll, I wonder if I'll have a business when I get back.

[00:50:48] So he, he, he never talked about that. That, that was the one occasion that I remember him talking about that. So he wasn't, I'm, I'm far more open and like you in a, an open book, but, uh, he, he didn't model that. So I don't know where that, where I got that from.

[00:51:11] But I think it's important to just let people know what they're going to get, you know, because otherwise if, if there's a, if, if you present in a way, or if you're not vulnerable or transparent and people get a, a skewed perspective of who they think you are. And I think we end up, we, we, we have the potential to fall into the trap of, well, I want to keep this relationship.

[00:51:38] So you, you end up essentially living a lie and that's not sustainable. So, um, it's, you know, it's, you get what you get. Yeah. Um, I think transparency is a far better word actually. Yeah. I think, you know, transparency and I was, cause I, I, I've seen some people doing like in, in, in business, in the, in the business world, right. Doing like strategic vulnerability. It's like oversharing.

[00:52:07] It's, it's a really weird thing to, to, to, to be around. But yeah, transparency and being an openness about openness about how we feel and how we have felt. I, I think that's a far better word for, than, than, than, than vulnerability.

[00:52:36] When it comes to, you know, when this, within this kind of parenting zone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to take that. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Absolutely. Good on you, Derek. Um, yeah. So thanks, thanks a lot for, for, for sharing. Uh, so transparently, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, uh, thank you to listeners. We'll speak to you again, Brayson. Take care. Bye-bye. All right. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:53:06] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.