What's Your Superpower? With Jennifer Teele

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Jennifer, Jennifer Teele. Looking forward to our conversation. Jennifer, you're just such a ball of energy, such a live wire. You're setting my evening alight with your energy. Well good, well thank you.

[00:00:23] You're welcome, you're welcome. So listeners, Jennifer is an adoptive mum, so you fostered and then you adopted your son, what 12 years ago when he was four? Yes, 12 years ago. And she's also got 24 years experience in fostering and adoption and she leads, well she's the director for adoption works at Christian Works for children.

[00:00:52] So some keen listeners may think, I've heard that Christian Works for Children. That's because I've been lucky enough to interview two of Jennifer's colleagues. So here we are, we're going for a triple from Christian Works for Children. So the big question that we'd like to start with Jennifer, what does thriving mean to you?

[00:01:20] Jennifer T. When I think about thriving, I guess when I think about it as an adoptive mom and a social worker, it means more than just like, you know, being happy, successful or having everything kind of figured out. When I adopted my son, William from foster care, he was four years old and he's 16 now.

[00:01:43] And one of the most important things that I think I've learned is that his story didn't begin the day he became my son, even though sometimes that's kind of how we think of adoption. It's like that's the day, but it's like that's the day, but it's really not because he had life experiences and connections before me.

[00:02:06] So I want to always try to make sure that I honor all those parts of him because they deserve to be honored. But when I think of like thriving for me, I think of my son a lot because he has come from a place of trauma because he did enter the foster care system.

[00:02:30] But I also also think about when it comes to William and thriving, it means I want him to have the freedom to be exactly who he was meant to be. And knowing that he's loved unconditionally, he belongs and he always has a safe place to land with his family when life gets difficult. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing.

[00:02:55] When I talked to Anastasiya Martinez yesterday, she talked about the future as well. Like so often we think of identity, we think of kind of like the current or the past. Right. But with, you know, it seems something, something's in the water, right? Down in your neck of the woods. Yes.

[00:03:18] That you've got this kind of future focus, the future focus on identity and who William wants to be. Yes. Because I think we get into, we also want to think about like when we say thriving, everybody always wants to think about the here and the now. But there's so much more than that.

[00:03:45] Like you have to think about, I've done a good job, hopefully, parenting him. But I mean, my responsibility is just to create the environment where he can thrive and what it looks like for him. Yeah. So one of my favorite mentors says that the past is a place of reference, not a place of residence. Oh, I love that.

[00:04:15] So we can look back. We can look back. But we're not going to, we're not going to kind of stay there. But that doesn't take us to the kind of like the future facing bit that you're seeing and that Anastasia is seeing. So maybe we need to have a look at another, a third line to that, right? Right. It's not a place of reference, residence is a place of reference. The future is, I don't know.

[00:04:44] Anyway, there's something more to come there. You talked about creating an environment for your son to thrive. So what does that look like for you? What have your learnings been about over the last 12 years in terms of creating the environment for William? Wow.

[00:05:08] What I thought it was, the environment that he needed wasn't the environment that he needed. It comes with change. You learn and you grow. You think about, oh, I'm going to, you know, when you adopt, you're like, oh, I'm just going to love him and everything's going to be grand. And it is grand. It is good. But there are also other things that come with it.

[00:05:34] And so I think for me, I think the biggest change kind of came when he was in fifth grade and he was diagnosed with autism. He had already been diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia. But at that point, I knew like everything had to change so that I could make sure his environment was good.

[00:05:57] So whether that meant I had to change up my tone or our activities, letting him know ahead of time, like what was happening so that he, you know, could be prepared. And I think that when you think about those things, it just ends up coming a little bit naturally because I just don't want him to be defined, him to think, oh, well, this is what I have going on. This is who I am.

[00:06:26] I always tell him, your brain is your superpower. And so you can do any and everything you want. So it's kind of almost for him, making sure that he knows his future can be whatever he wants it to be. But then also as a mother, kind of grieving that point of what I had envisioned. Yeah.

[00:06:52] And making sure it's more about what he wants and what's going to be best for him. Yeah. So you said something about superpower. Yes. Yeah. So what was it that you said? I didn't quite hear that. Oh, I always, when he thinks about autism, like when he first got the diagnosis, he didn't like the word. He thought it meant he was different. And I always told him, no, your brain is your superpower.

[00:07:22] You just think of things and look at things differently. And so that's your superpower. It's not, you don't have to go by what this label is. Go by how you feel, what you think. Because for him, he can, for math, he can look at numbers and just see it and come up with the answer. And so I'm like, when you think about that, like that's your superpower.

[00:07:48] Like you always have to always try to make sure everything for him is positive, but also realistic. Okay. So one of the challenges with these labels is that they can, you know, there's a kind of a, I think some people feel a relief at the label. And then, then the label becomes the identity.

[00:08:15] I think some people, I think some people do. I think that they get so caught up in, in the label that it takes away from just the child. He still is who he is. He's still my son. He's still the very smart, outgoing.

[00:08:40] His, I just look at it as kind of his brain works differently than mine, but it's not, it's not a negative. It's always positive because the world is already going to be kind of hard. And I don't want him to think that, oh, well, this is one more thing I have to add to it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:03] And from, from the professional stance, there's quite a lot of autism, ADHD, et cetera, within, within adopted kids and kids adopted from foster care, right? Yes, it is. Yeah.

[00:09:19] And I think, you know, I think that's because once, when they're in the foster care system, as much as, you know, we want to say it's, it's a good environment and, you know, we've kind of taken them from this bad environment. We're going to put them, you know, with these other people and we're going to give them all these services.

[00:09:38] It's usually something that has already kind of, somebody just didn't know, like he didn't have the assessment or they didn't take the, the little girl never had speech therapy. And so they just thought, so I think it's more of the services that end up coming with it and all of the assessments that they start to see more things.

[00:10:03] Whereas, you know, if their parents were already struggling and in a trauma environment, that's the last thing that they're going to think about. Okay. So it's a lack of kind of early intervention. Yes, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it even goes back to the womb. You know, we have research now that says that trauma can begin in the womb.

[00:10:29] And when you think about that, it does, it makes a lot of sense because, you know, the child is in, you know, the womb and he's all those experiences and everything that that mother is feeling that can go on to that child.

[00:10:46] And so we really have to look at it from almost as before they're even born and go from there because all of that encompasses kind of what is going to happen in the future. Yeah.

[00:11:04] One of the things that strikes me about this, you know, that in utero trauma and the kind of the generational trauma as well is that we don't know its extent, right? Yeah. We don't know extent, its extent.

[00:11:25] And so I, you know, when I think of, when I think of this, I think what we have the saying here in the UK, you're making a mountain out of a molehill. We have that in the, okay. Right. Good. Good. I'm glad that it translates. Right. It does.

[00:11:45] So the thing is that when we're talking about this, especially this kind of in utero trauma, we don't know whether it is a mountain or a molehill or somewhere in between. Yes.

[00:12:04] And I think that kind of our creative brains can make a mountain out of a molehill and a molehill out of a mountain. Right. But I agree. Yes. That is an excellent way to put it. Yes. You know, and I also think that kind of like what we focus on gets, what we focus on gets bigger. So we can get more and more revved up about this. Yes, definitely.

[00:12:33] You know, more and more worried about this stuff when we don't know, right? Continue to think about it and, yeah, put so much focus on it. To stew on it, right? Yes. So what have you seen around this kind of uncertainty thing?

[00:12:57] Um, I think mainly for others that I work with and that are coming in and wanting to be adoptive parents. They get so caught up on making sure everything is perfect. And I try to tell them that nothing is perfect. There's no such thing as perfect. I tell them all the time.

[00:13:26] When I was going through this, I taught these classes. I did everything, everything that you're doing that I'm teaching you. I had to go through as well. And that didn't mean anything when kids start coming into my home screaming, crying and, and everything else was going on. And I'm trying to say, no, we're going to sit down and have this perfect dinner. Cause after school, we did our homework and now we had time to read and it's time to sit down and sit to dinner.

[00:13:55] That did not happen. There was food being thrown, you know, there's all kinds of stuff going on. And so I think you just have to get into that, the joy in the moment. Yes, it can be all of the things, but I want you to focus more on kind of what, what you hope and desire for that child. Keep that in mind because you can't erase anything that's happened to them.

[00:14:23] You can only move forward and kind of like, I don't believe thriving means you've never experienced hardship or loss. Right. I believe that thriving means that those experiences don't have to define the limits of who you can become.

[00:14:42] So when we're talking about this, we always have to look ahead and kind of think about how we're preparing them because every child is different. Every family is different. And so you really have to learn like what works best here, not what I have perceived to be and what I've always dreamed it to be. Yeah. I hope that answered your question. I think so. Yeah.

[00:15:11] I don't, I don't know how elegant a question it was, but that was an elegant answer. Oh, thank you. So what about, what about you as a, as a, as a human being, as a, as a mom, as a adoption professional, what works best for you? What helps you thrive? Wow. Wow.

[00:15:35] I, I think when I think about what makes it's, it's everything. It's always, I make sure to find joy in everything. My son is always like, oh my gosh, it's always going to be fine. Find the joy, find the joy. But because it can be, something can be wrong and something, things aren't going the best. But for me, I always try to find some type of joy.

[00:16:03] I consider something about it joyful so that, because there are stressful times, there are times that I get overwhelmed. And, and we're learning about all this new research and we're trying to, you know, have these, you know, make sure that these parents are ready for these children. And you have to find that balance because I still am a mom at the end of the day and I still am a person.

[00:16:29] And so I think that for me, I just try to find joy and I'm always like, okay, there was something happened at school today. He'll like, he'll say, I got a bad grade on a test or something. Well then, okay, where's the joy in that? He was like, mom, there is no joy. Yeah, there's joy. Cause you can find it because at some point you learned something.

[00:16:54] So for me, I just try to find the joy in things instead of letting the world kind of tell me how to feel. Sorry, instead of letting the world tell you how to feel? Yes. Because we're told, you know, we're told, oh, something bad happens. You're supposed to feel a certain type of way. Well, who says that you have to feel, you have to feel happy or sad.

[00:17:24] There are so many other feelings that you can express and that you'll go through. And I think that sometimes, I think back to when he got diagnosed, I was like, oh, okay. And then I got a little sad, but I was like, well, why am I sad? Cause this, this isn't going to change anything. It's just, we're, we're doing things differently. And I'm just, I try to look at everything positively.

[00:17:53] So I think people kind of sometimes are like, oh, I'm annoyed. Like she wants to turn everything into a positive moment. And it's not that things happen, but I think that there's so much going on. And you have to find joy in the little things. Yeah. The closest, oh yeah, I've got some, I've got some sciatica, right? Right. Okay.

[00:18:21] So, so I'm on, I'm on tablets for, for that, which really that helped me sleep better. So that's a good thing. Right. Right. But I'm just starting to think about diagnosis. Right. So the, the thing that popped into my head, they kind of, as you were explaining, was you talking about feeling a little bit low after the diagnosis?

[00:18:45] You know, I, I think about, I don't know whether it is a diagnosis or, or what, but it kind of seems a little bit like one that, you know, this thing, this, this thing that Nancy Verrier called the primal wound. Yes. Yeah. Does that, does that feel like a diagnosis to you? Cause it kind of does to me somehow. It does. It does. Yes. So. Yes.

[00:19:15] My, I mean, I, I didn't believe that I was primarily wounded until I read the primal wound. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and so she was in a way, she was trying to tell me how to feel. Right. Right. To say, um, but my initial, you know, when I talked about the, you know, relief in diagnosis, I'm talking about my own experience with the primal wound. Right.

[00:19:44] So I had this, uh, there was a relief. All right. Kind of this explains everything. And then on the heels, pretty soon after the heels of the relief, there was a sense of, uh, foreboding and, and doom. Like I'm, I'm stuck with this. Right. Yeah. And then on the heels of that pretty on the heels, pretty fast after the heels of that,

[00:20:10] I had this other insight that I'm, I'm unwounded because who we truly are is unwoundable. Right. Yeah. And so I, I, I'm intact. I'm, I'm kind of good to go. I'm, I'm still, I'm still, I'm still complete. I'm still, you're still complete. You're still whole. I'm whole.

[00:20:39] Yes. Yeah. And so, you know, I, I, I talk about being trauma informed, wholeness aware and thriving obsessed. Yes. Because I don't think that we hear a lot about wholeness. No, we don't. And I find that so interesting that we don't talk about the wholeness because it is, it is important.

[00:21:09] And when you think about it, like that's the overall, like we have, you have to look at everything and because that's, what's going to make the whole picture what it is. And so you have to look at everything. It's not like one particular moment in time. It's not one particular thing that happens. It's a combination. It's kind of everything. Yeah.

[00:21:38] I was talking to a, an adoption therapist here, here in the UK just a couple of hours ago. And she, she was talking about the being comfort in, in the woundedness. Yes. And this was kind of so alien to me. I kind of, I struggled to see it really. Yes.

[00:22:10] What, what say you about that? It, it, I mean, when you, when I think about it, I understand it. But then it's like, you, you kind of almost have this sense of, I find it almost like a sense of peace because you, you come to this place where you have to know like, oh, I went

[00:22:38] through this, this, this, this, like things happen. But it's like, what does that mean? But does it make you, does it make you just this one particular person? Does it, is that what makes you this one thing? Or does, does a lot of different things make you who you are?

[00:23:03] When, when, when you talk about peace, I think about, and, and, and I was thinking back earlier on to your, you know, you're talking about food being thrown, I think, and, you know. Yes. I was thinking about the, the peace that is found in the eye of the storm. Hmm. Wow.

[00:23:33] Yes. I think that's interesting because I don't think a lot of people would view that, that way. I don't think people think there is peace in the storm. So do you believe that? Like there's peace? Well, I, I, I believe that, that peace in the eye of the storm is the peace that we are. Yes. Yes.

[00:23:59] It's not, I think we get so, it's the negative that sometimes is focused on instead of everything as a whole. Yeah. So I was up in Scotland at a adoption conference last week and we were talking a lot about, well, a, a, a lady, I can't remember her surname, but a lady, a Dane, a Dutch lady came, called

[00:24:27] Hetty, is a kind of trauma, trauma specialist. And she was talking about secondary trauma in the, in the workplace and compassion fatigue. Yeah. And these sorts of big, well, yeah, these sorts of big issues. And she did a, like a present, she, she started off talking about a few different things and, and hope.

[00:24:52] And then she had an hour and 20 minutes presentation and, and, and, and she only got to hope in about the last five minutes. Hmm. And I was thinking, isn't that the way that we're kind of focused as, as a society? We're looking, we're looking at the darkness rather than the light. Yes. But I do the opposite. Yes.

[00:25:23] Because it's so, it's so much more than that. And I think I, a lot of times I tell people who are coming into the adoption world and especially if they're wanting to adopt, you have to deal with your own childhood trauma and your own trauma because it will definitely come up when you're parenting that child. So you really have to have like kind of dealt with that because it will like peak its head.

[00:25:52] But I think that at that point, sometimes you kind of have to think about, oh, okay. I made it through that. Like I made it through what's next. Like, and you have to find that kind of joy in even things that are, are trauma-ful. Yeah. Because you can't, I don't believe in holding on to the negative. No.

[00:26:21] But you've got two storms colliding there, right? Yes. So you've got your own storm, trauma storm. Right. Our own trauma storm, right? And then you've got the, the, the secondary trauma that you get in there. So it's like, it's a perfect storm, isn't it? It's an imperfect storm. Yes. But, you know, so those two storms are going to kind of push, we're going to collide together.

[00:26:48] And I guess it's going to be harder to find the peace in, when you've got double trouble. Right. Definitely. Definitely. It's very difficult, but it's something that I think over, I would say over the, my career, I started in the 2000s in social work. So a lot of those kind of the things we're seeing now wasn't there.

[00:27:17] So, I mean, all of like the compassion fatigue and secondary, it was foreign, you know? And when I think back to, you know, I was at that point, I think I was removing kids. I was investigating abuse and neglect. Yeah. And I think it was one time I was home for Christmas and I was telling my mom something and she just like broke down crying.

[00:27:43] And she was like, oh my gosh, I had so, and I'm like, and I, and at that point I realized how desensitized I was. And it would have been so nice to know that there was something out there to tell me like that this is okay. It's okay that, you know, because you take on a lot of what you see and you, because you

[00:28:09] just want to be, you want to help, you want to help, you want to help, you want to change things, but it is trauma in that, like you kind of have that, you hold onto it. And I think at that point you have to look at it. Like my mom already saw that there was, that that was some trauma there. I was in it, so I didn't see it.

[00:28:31] And I think a lot of times we have to have that outside person to let us know that what they see so that we can kind of be aware of it. Yeah. So it's, it's interesting this, because we've, we've got, we've got the kind of the evolution of a trauma narrative here. Yes.

[00:28:55] So if we look back to, so if we look way back to like First World War, right? 1914, 1918. Britain was fighting, Britain was with French, French fighting the Germans, right? Yes. And the soldiers came back from the, from the, from war. They called it shell shock, right? That's, that's what they call it. Shell shock, right?

[00:29:23] But then trauma didn't really become a thing until kind of post Vietnam. And a lot of, a lot of, all those vets coming back with, if, you know, they would have been, it would have been called shell shock. It would have, yes. But then it became kind of, it became a, trauma became a thing, looked at all this veteran stuff. And, and then if we look at the primal wound that didn't come out till, that book didn't come out till 1993.

[00:29:51] And so we would, we were blind to that trauma until 1993. And you're saying we were, we were bound, uh, blind to secondary trauma, uh, and compassion, passion fatigue, because they weren't things until the, when you started in the 2000s. So there's this kind of, this evolution of this trauma narrative, but where's the wholeness narrative?

[00:30:17] I mean, you know, I, you have to, I think it's created. I think it's something that is created and it's created through your interactions, through community, through learning, through therapy, you know, through day-to-day life. Like there's something in that that kind of really is like, oh, okay. Yeah.

[00:30:48] What, what have, what have you seen around, you know, you talked about being desensitized and, and your, um, mom making you, you, her, her response to your comments, you know, brought, brought this as an issue to you and you, you kind of saw how you'd been desensitized to it. Um, and so it became, you became aware of it. It's that young person, isn't it?

[00:31:15] Until we become, until we become conscious, uh, uh, uh, of the subconscious, it will drive our, it will drive our life and we will call it fate, something like that. Right. Until we become. Yeah. Um, so what, what have your learnings been around these, uh, issues? Because clearly, you know, you're, you're, you're coming at this from a mom perspective and a professional perspective. Yes.

[00:31:45] So, um, I think community, um, is a really big thing. I think that for, for children, for adults, for parents, um, kind of those services afterwards. A lot of times we, you have all these services and then you adopt and then everyone's gone and everything's gone, but you still need that support. You still need that community.

[00:32:14] And I think that the one thing that I've seen that has been so powerful is that post-adoption kind of community. Being able to talk to another mom and she just gets it because she understands. Yes. She's adopted. She understands those different things because regardless, it is different.

[00:32:40] It is different from biologically having a child to adopting. There is a difference and, and it's okay, but you want to be around people who get it and you want your kids to be around people who, who they know are going through the same things. And that has kind of been really, really keen in, in everything is making sure that there's community.

[00:33:10] Yeah. Just, just because you've been, uh, as you were describing, describing the, uh, the chaos at the, at the dinner table. Yes. Yeah. Right. You, you're laughing now, as I say that. I am, but I was, I was, I did go into my room and start crying. Yeah. But you, you, you, at some point the, the, the tears became laughter or they transitioned to laughter. Right.

[00:33:38] I, I, something happened along the way. It did. And I think it was letting go of perfectionism and giving grace to myself and to others, because I think we have this idea that everything is, they want to use the word perfect. And this is how your day is supposed to go. And everyone sits at this dinner table.

[00:34:08] Well, that, that didn't work for our family at that time. We had to learn that everybody couldn't eat at the same time. I think at that point we had maybe four, we had four kids at that time, um, that we were fostering and everybody, they were different ages. Everybody had different things. So we had to learn like, Hey, this big dinner thing every night is not going to work.

[00:34:37] If I can get it once a month, Hey, I am good with that. You know, because you're so into, this is how things are supposed to be. Well, how do you want it to be? How does it look like for you to function? How does it look like for your children to function? That is, that's more important than this idea that we've been given that everything has to be this way.

[00:35:05] And if it's not this particular way, then it's not right. Right. I was just thinking about the Waltons and I'm thinking, is that too? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's what you see. And you think that it's supposed to be like that. And you're like, uh, yeah, no, this isn't. I mean, I remember calling my best friend and she was like, I was like, they're throwing

[00:35:33] food and, and they're not, they're not even trying to listen to me and they're crying and somebody else is eating with their hands instead of the fork. And she was like, Jennifer, are they eating? And I was like, well, a little. And she was like, okay then. And I was like, oh, I didn't think about it like that because I'm thinking about this

[00:36:00] perfect little dinner table that you see where everyone's laughing and talking and passing the rolls. That's not always how it is. Nice. So it sounds like the one word that's popping into my head as you describe this, right? It's flexibility. Yes. Flexibility and expectations.

[00:36:31] Yeah. You have to take the expectations out of it because having those expectations then creates more chaos in your, in your mind. And then it leads up to resentment and to thinking that you're doing it wrong.

[00:36:51] And it's just taking those, I think taking the expectation out of it has really been mind blown. I mean, it's really been life changing to take the expectation out and to just kind of let things be. Yeah. Did you talk, did you say grieving the expectations earlier on? Yes. Oh yes.

[00:37:18] I mean, he does remember. He remembers his mom. He remembers kind of the things that were happening and I, I never want him. It's okay. I tell him it's okay. Like those things that happen and it's okay. Let's talk about it. I'm very big about feelings. And I mean, they're always like, oh my gosh, Jennifer is going to talk about feelings.

[00:37:48] How are you feeling? What is this to me? Because I think we have to be, I want, I really want, when I was growing up, feelings weren't a thing. It was, you do what you're told, you know, as a child. And it wasn't, it was, this isn't a democracy, right? Like parents were like, what I say goes, but there's more to that.

[00:38:16] And so asking about the feelings and kind of knowing like, okay, it's going to be okay. Like, it's not always going to be perfect. But at the end of the day, that grief that kind of he has, I want to acknowledge it. You know, I want to acknowledge it.

[00:38:38] I want to also honor what, what he had before without making it seem like it's negative. And that, oh, everything became so much better because you got adopted. I think I just, I really want to, I really try to acknowledge all parts of his story.

[00:39:04] And I think that a lot of times that's something that we don't do. We want to just acknowledge the good parts. But you can't get to the good without the bad. Yeah. What would we be doing if we didn't acknowledge? What would be the opposite in this situation, in this context?

[00:39:34] What is the word I want to use? It's almost like burying it, acting like it doesn't exist. Okay. Yeah. I was thinking about judging as well. Oh, yes. Yes. It's yes. That might be even more loaded. Oh, that's very much loaded. Yeah. A judgment of that. Yeah. Yes.

[00:40:01] Because you're putting that judgment onto the past and what happened. So you don't want it to come, I don't want it to come off as, oh, your biological mom did everything wrong. I'm doing everything right. Actually, we're all doing the best we can at that moment with what we have. Yeah.

[00:40:31] And so it's not good or bad or positive or negative. It's acknowledging that maybe we didn't get it right, but we did the best we could at that time. Because he's going to grow up and he's going to know. People understand their story, but I think there's a way to conceptualize it based on their emotional maturity level.

[00:41:01] Yeah. I saw something, an adoptee, just a little clip on video on Facebook the other day. And he was talking about him, that he was a son before he was adopted. Right. He was. Yes. Yes. Yes.

[00:41:29] And I was on a retreat last year, about this time last year, maybe November last year. And that idea came to me because people often say things like, there's no, you didn't have a pre-trauma personality. You know?

[00:41:58] And I thought, well, there wasn't me before the relinquishment. Right. I had, there was something unique about me before that actually happened. Yes. There was a pre-trauma, Simon. I mean, you could say, well, there's some, you know, there may have been some in utero trauma. Da, da, da. Yeah.

[00:42:29] And then, so that was, you know, before you were born, obviously. Da, da, da. So, yeah, there might be. There might be. But how will we ever, how will we ever know? But if the trauma is all in the, or if there's more trauma in the relinquishment than there is in the utero stuff. There was a pre-trauma me. Oh, yes.

[00:42:57] And it's, and it's acknowledging that and, and, and being able to say, okay, this was it. I think we don't want to just cut someone's story into these bits and pieces to make this nice, great movie. Because you have to, that's almost saying like, okay, well, that half of you was, was not good. And I don't, I don't love that part.

[00:43:26] I love this part. And I think it's always, always told him, let me see how I can change the name. Yeah. Because kids know that they are, they see a pregnant belly and they know there's a baby in there. And so I always told him, you grew in your mom's belly, but you grew in my heart. And that doesn't mean that either one of us loves you more. Yeah. We just love you differently.

[00:43:56] The love is just different. Or less. Or less. Yes. Can I take you back a little bit to the, the, the grief about the expectations? Yes. You talked a little bit about kind of the, William's perspective on that.

[00:44:15] But what about, you know, you were talking about letting expectations go and flexibility and not making stuff a big deal and, and, and how that was life changing. So what was, was grieving the, grieving your expectations?

[00:44:40] Was that a big part of letting the kind of, well, yeah. Yeah. Yes. I was going to say control freakery, but you know. Oh yeah. Because it's this, it's what you, is that it goes, the expectation. Like this is how they, I didn't know at that point that I would say, oh, I'm grieving.

[00:45:06] Um, I didn't have the words to put it into context that way, but it was, it was, it was grieving, but I think it was more of grieving this expectation. Yeah. Instead of letting things happen how they are and dealing with it in that moment. Yeah.

[00:45:30] Can I, can I take a run at what, what that, how, how that could be understood differently? Right. So you had a picture of how life was going to be. Yes. And, and it didn't turn out like that. And, and, and you were, you were missing out because your expectations hadn't been met. Is that kind of what, what this looks like?

[00:46:00] Or is it different? How is it different? So how it's different because the X, those expectations that I thought that I was supposed to have, that society tells us that we're supposed to have. What it wasn't that it was, it's, it was joy. It was understanding that this is going exactly the way it's supposed to go.

[00:46:25] And as long as I am being honoring to who he is as a whole person, then that's kind of the best that I can do. And that makes it, that makes it amazing because it's the experiences. It's those experiences that don't have to define the limits. Right. And just kind of being like, everything is different.

[00:46:54] So the grief for me, I had to realize it took a while. It wasn't in that moment, but I had to realize, oh, this is better. Because when I look back, things are better than what I could have even imagined. Because my child is thriving. He knows who he is. He's able to speak about who he is, that he was adopted.

[00:47:23] All the things that kind of make him, him. And all of those things are things that, that I love and that are a part of him. And I think if we, we have to, and he's gone through grief. I've made sure that he was in counseling and therapy and all the things. But it's okay to grieve. But I don't think we have to hold on to it. Yeah.

[00:47:56] Grief and joy aren't words that people normally put together, right? No, they don't. And I think a lot of times people, when I say it, they're like, wait a minute, you do know those are opposite. No, they're not opposite, actually. They're opposite because that's, that's what we're, we're talking about and define that way. And by definition, they are opposites.

[00:48:24] But it's all about perspective. Yeah. And you're back to that point about choosing, not, not, not reacting how society tells you, not feeling how society tells you to feel. Oh yeah, that was so freeing. It was so freeing as a parent.

[00:48:47] And it was so freeing as a professional to be able to say, you know what? It's okay. That everything is not okay. And that's, and for other parents and other people to say, you know what? You're right. Because it, it, it isn't.

[00:49:09] But finding that joy in it is, it's amazing because it is that perspective of grief, loss, joy. Joy. Yeah. We're going to find the joy in it. I'm always, we're going to consider it joy. We're going to find the joy in that, but we're also not going to negate the other parts. No.

[00:49:39] So the, the, the, the guy that said the past is a place of reference, not a place of residence. Yes. His wife says, if we're okay with not feeling okay, we're always okay. Yes. Oh my gosh. Yes. Yes. Not feeling okay is okay.

[00:50:09] Yeah. I love that. I did not. Can you say that one again? I had, I didn't hear that. Yeah. That one a lot. Okay. Um, if, if we're okay with not feeling okay, we're always okay. Yeah. So the thing is like, we've become emotophobic. Right. In society. Right. Yes.

[00:50:36] You, you, you talked about, you know, people telling us how, you know, people telling us how we should feel. Right. So, so the, the, yeah. So the big one here is, um, and adoptive moms do laugh at this when I, um, say to them, you know, that, uh, that they should be, uh, uh, that, uh, they should, they tell their kids that they should be grateful. Right. Oh, yeah.

[00:51:05] So this is how, this is, yeah, that's, that's, that's not, this is 19th century adopted parenting. Right. Not 21st century adopted parenting. Right. Right. Yes. But, uh, yeah. So, uh, people tell us how that we should feel and people tell us that feeling bad is feeling that we shouldn't feel bad. So, you know, uh, I, I used to worry about worrying. Mm.

[00:51:36] Yeah. Were you, did you worry a lot? Were you a natural, like, did you, did you always have this like worrying feeling and you were worrying about what was coming next or what, you know, worrying about what might happen? Uh, not all the time.

[00:51:56] Um, no, I mean, I, uh, well, here's, here's something I heard on this subject. Um, that, that, that, so I'm, my, my dad, uh, passed coming up 10 years ago and I, about

[00:52:21] maybe 14 years ago, we were, uh, we were out for, for dinner at a, um, at a pub and we were talking about worrying about, we're talking about worrying about business. Right. So, um, and he, he said to, he said to me, well, I, I, I thought that worrying about business kept me on my toes. Right. So, yeah.

[00:52:50] Uh, and I, and I said, well, yeah, me, um, what did I say to him? I said, yeah, it, it, it may have kept you on, on your toes, but it probably got in the way of you enjoying life. Yes. And his eyes filled up. Mm.

[00:53:15] So, but you, you wouldn't, like, you wouldn't know he was worrying. Right. Right. And, and you wouldn't know that I was worrying a lot of the time, like, you know, but I would be, I would be forward thinking. I would be right. Okay. So I would be getting ahead. Yes. So I, I, I don't stick my head in the sand. Right. I'm, I'm the opposite of that. Right.

[00:53:45] I kind of get ahead. Get ahead. Yes. Um, but yeah, so I, I used, but so I would be, you, so there's, there's a, for me, there's a fine line between forward thinking and worrying. Okay. You can be forward thinking and, and, and, and thinking about what's going to happen and making sure that that doesn't happen and kind of like, and, uh, and vision, envisioning,

[00:54:14] you know, things ahead that you want to avoid. Yes. You can, you can think about that or you can have the same level of thought, but there's a real emotional charge underneath it. Right. Because while you're doing all of that worrying and you're not seeing what's, what's going on right now, you're missing the life. Indeed. Yeah.

[00:54:41] So you can, what did I, uh, yeah, uh, I, this, this, this work that there's thinking ahead and there's being worried about, uh, about what's going to happen. And sometimes for me, it was tricky to dis, dis, you know, uh, to, uh, distinguish the two things, but yeah, I used to, but then I would worry about worrying.

[00:55:06] So I would become, as a, another mentor of mine, uh, says a moron. Right. So I've got more on my mind. Oh, okay. I like that. Yeah. It makes sense. Yeah. So he, he, he, this guy, a guy called Michael, um, he, he, he weighed, he made me see the, um, reduce that, do that less. Yeah. Be less of a moron. Yeah. Yes.

[00:55:36] Changing that perspective, changing the way that you look at things and how you're processing it. Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, why did I start down that line? We were talking about grief. Grief. Yeah. And we were talking about grief and finding joy. Trying to enjoy. Yeah. So if, if, if we're okay with not feeling okay, we're always okay.

[00:56:04] If we're okay with grieving, then we're okay. Yes. It's like accepting, uh, this, does that song, um, I, uh, is it REO Speedwagon? It probably before your time, Jennifer, but I, I can't fight this feeling anymore. Is well, you know, fighting feelings doesn't work. No, it doesn't.

[00:56:34] And I do know that song. Do you know that song? Okay. I do know that song. No, it, it, it really doesn't. You can't fight those feelings. No. You really. It's acknowledging them. But who told us we were supposed to? Who told us we were supposed to fight them? Yes. Yes. And I think that comes from, but that's what our parents knew. That's what we were taught. And it's, it's that thing about when you know better, you do better. Yeah.

[00:57:02] And so looking at that, those feelings, I do want to acknowledge them. I want you to be able to express those feelings. I want you to be able to name what that feeling is. And so in that you create this kind of joy because you're giving somebody this gift.

[00:57:26] And the gift is learning to live life in those moments and learning that it's going to be okay. It might not be okay right here, right now, but it's going to be okay. That feels like the perfect time to bring it in. And we've been at that almost an hour and it's just fine.

[00:57:55] It has. It doesn't feel like that long at all. It doesn't. Time flies when you're having fun. It does. It does. Yes. Yeah. So thank you, Jennifer. And thank you, listeners. We will speak to you again very soon. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.