Accepting To Heal With Stephen Sterne

[00:00:00] Hello everybody welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast today I'm delighted

[00:00:06] to be joined by Stephen Stern looking forward to our conversation today Stephen.

[00:00:11] This is great thanks Simon for the opportunity.

[00:00:15] So the 50 million dollar question what does healing mean to you?

[00:00:22] I think for me at my journey it's a full acceptance of the full reality of the situation.

[00:00:32] Not not having anything else unexpected to be uncovered but just the ability to take things

[00:00:42] for what they are except them learn from them leverage or utilize them for the future and

[00:00:49] be able to share that story.

[00:00:53] I remember early on I had some counseling and the counselor shared with me something that was

[00:01:01] that was marriage counseling but it applied in this situation and that was the more that you

[00:01:05] share your story the more you accept it for yourself and that just hit home with me because

[00:01:13] trying to deny it or try to avoid it or trying to reframe it up in some way that I wish it was

[00:01:18] versus what it is. It's just challenging, it's just wait that you bring with you through life

[00:01:24] but if you can just share your story the good the bad the pain the hurt the ugly the positives

[00:01:33] I just felt like that was a very key little comment that has made a huge impact in just

[00:01:38] accepting things that are outside of my control but maybe they were there for a purpose.

[00:01:44] There's a lot there buddy.

[00:01:47] Yes, there's a lot there.

[00:01:51] It sounds like for me if I was to sum it up it's kind of a wise,

[00:02:01] it's a combination as it says it's a cocktail of wisdom and acceptance.

[00:02:07] Yeah.

[00:02:09] Yep.

[00:02:11] Yeah, it's sometimes it's hard to accept the truth about things and we

[00:02:21] tend to go with what's safer and sometimes what seems safe is less painful but there's always

[00:02:28] maybe an underside to that that we don't see and that's a lifetime just avoiding things or

[00:02:36] missing on the value of things or stepping away from the pain that we have

[00:02:44] and another great phrase I heard somebody say was if you choose to look at it like this

[00:02:49] that your pain can lead to your passion or your purpose and so many of us have pain.

[00:02:57] We have wounding, we have things that happen to us outside of our control maybe injustices we

[00:03:03] might see them as being but if we utilize that and go okay there's not many people that are going

[00:03:09] to handle this and process this and go through the work of getting healed.

[00:03:15] The people that do do that have a platform and a story they can help others otherwise

[00:03:20] we'll kind of all start in line of our healing journey together and no one's actually come back

[00:03:24] from the finish line and said hey here's the value, here's the benefit of being healed.

[00:03:31] Yeah that makes sense. I think so, I think it kind of makes sense for me. Have you heard of

[00:03:38] this guy Gabel Amate? Who do you think? I'm not. No. So he's not an adoption specific guy but he's

[00:03:48] he's a kind of a big deal in I think it's like a therapist of some type or maybe he was an MD

[00:03:56] he does a lot of work in the trauma, in the general trauma space and he doesn't do much

[00:04:06] adoption specific stuff. He's got but I signed up for a program, I'm not a big fan of his,

[00:04:13] I haven't been a big fan in the past but he's I signed up for a course recently and it's called

[00:04:22] the Wisdom of Trauma, the Wisdom of Trauma and I was thinking that's a pretty cool title

[00:04:31] because you don't see like if you ever said wisdom and trauma together in the same sentence.

[00:04:39] Yeah. It's a totally turn it on its head and I guess the wisdom word was

[00:04:52] that's why was that top of the top in the mind because I just seen that right just before we

[00:05:00] were talking and but it also seemed like a good summer wisdom and acceptance

[00:05:12] and as I think about the word acceptance especially, I'm thinking like what's the what's the opposite?

[00:05:25] What would you say is the opposite of acceptance? I think rejection is the first word that comes to my mind.

[00:05:39] Yeah, rejections, I trust you on the bit of assessment with an adult tease right

[00:05:44] and because for you're talking about the rejection of what a you're talking about the rejection

[00:05:50] of the truth. Sure, it could be that. I mean rejection can be a perspective too, you know it

[00:05:58] is. I've got the natural question that comes to everybody's mind is why did you not keep me?

[00:06:06] Well regardless of the purpose of this situation just that natural first thought that anybody would

[00:06:11] come to is so why not me right now whether you were an infant or a child or a teen whatever

[00:06:19] age you are when your adoption story occurs it could obviously be or seem to be something different.

[00:06:27] If you're an infant you probably don't have that thought but if you were to get adopted

[00:06:30] and say 10 for example you might go so what's wrong with me? Like, you know what did I do something

[00:06:36] wrong? Probably not the case at all but that idea of not being fully accepted for who you are

[00:06:45] or something more important than you maybe having a view your biological family, parent,

[00:06:56] mother's decision as being rejected. I didn't ever really feel that my story was something that

[00:07:06] there was a purpose and an intentionality, a positive desire from both parties that it wasn't a

[00:07:18] I don't want you. It was I want you to have a better life than I needed to provide

[00:07:24] and that was I think we had talked about like a very defining healing moment for me was

[00:07:31] having a conversation with my biological mom and that matching with my adopted parent's story on

[00:07:36] what was my purpose of adoption? And it wasn't I would have discarded because it was an inconvenience.

[00:07:44] It was behaviors that led to a pregnancy and a mom who was young and scared and did the best

[00:07:52] that she knew how to make sure that I didn't feel rejected or terminated and I would be in a home

[00:07:59] where I could be loved and accepted because that wasn't what she was able to provide herself

[00:08:05] and that made it huge for me and I guess everybody could be different

[00:08:11] feel different have a different perspective but that cloaked the whole situation in a very

[00:08:16] positive light in my mind then a lot of other stories that are out there that maybe don't have that

[00:08:23] banging. Talk is through talk is through that that healing

[00:08:33] healing moment what can you put a bit more detail on it in terms of the

[00:08:40] yeah in terms of the specifics and the feeling afterwards and the shift before and after or

[00:08:53] just absolutely that it is a very clear moment in my mind when I stop and think about it so I

[00:09:00] reconnected with my biological mom over the phone at age 20 so I called her and started running out of

[00:09:06] the blue had a conversation so the most awkward uncomfortable yet intimate conversation I

[00:09:15] probably ever had in my entire life but that broker the ability to start building a relationship

[00:09:21] with my biological mom and her family and we connected got to know each other a little bit kind of

[00:09:29] tested out the waters of what each of our intent was and reconnecting and when I went down there

[00:09:35] to visit. Roved at her house went into the living room got to meet her husband my half siblings

[00:09:43] and she had a little packet of materials that she had kept from when I was a child my original

[00:09:48] birth certificate my original social security card some pictures medical documentation etc

[00:09:55] and I remember sitting down and the question that I wanted to know most was so why did you choose to

[00:10:03] put me up for adoption right like I knew what my parents had told me but I wanted to hear it from her

[00:10:09] and she said I couldn't give you the kind of life I felt you deserved and I felt that I just felt

[00:10:17] like okay so this was all done with the best intentions of this situation she was very wrong candid

[00:10:24] she cried I cried and that was like the moment that I'm like okay you did this

[00:10:29] with the best intentions that you know how as a 17 year old girl with no real family support

[00:10:36] that was going to help me raise this child I can't argue with that and my parents had always told

[00:10:41] me that she wasn't able to take care of me and she wanted me to have a good home with two parents

[00:10:45] and the resources to be able to raise a kid and that story my my adoptive parent always told me

[00:10:53] and my biological mom sharing that one or two sentences of why she did what she did

[00:11:00] it just removed all of the unknowns that I had other than some just practical things are

[00:11:06] red疑ary etc but like the why behind the whole situation it just settled in my heart and I was okay

[00:11:14] with it still had other questions but like the core wound that could really be ripped open or destroyed

[00:11:22] just kind of closed in that moment when she told me the exact same reason my parents understood

[00:11:27] was the reason why she put my front option yeah so in a world it in a word it sounds like

[00:11:34] selflessness on her phone absolutely she had no ill will towards me no ill will towards

[00:11:43] my biological father none towards her parents it was just she genuinely wanted to

[00:11:49] have this child that she wasn't planning expecting or equipped to raise to have a good home

[00:11:56] and there wasn't anything I could be disappointed upset or angered by when someone tells you

[00:12:01] I did the best that I could and you just put that context of a scared pregnant 17 year old

[00:12:07] in the 80s working in McDonald's I mean she didn't have anything else to the turnpours and so

[00:12:14] um the other comment she said in that sentence but I will never forget that was

[00:12:21] probably the most meaningful comment was she does I gave you up and I hope that one day

[00:12:26] when we were connected you would be proud of me and I just thought what what mom would ever say

[00:12:33] that like I'm the kid my thought is hey let me make sure that you're giving me up I made a I validated

[00:12:41] your decision right I was a good representation of who you hoped for me to be that wasn't how she

[00:12:46] was thinking she wanted to continue to live her life so that if I ever found her she wanted to be

[00:12:52] someone that I would honor and respect and was proud of her being my mom and that was I just I couldn't

[00:13:01] I couldn't process that for a moment it just hit me so hard I felt wow would I

[00:13:05] interesting and what a blessing to have a mom think like that at 17 and still stay with that

[00:13:13] you know for the 20 years later before we reconnected yeah and you said something about

[00:13:22] a wound the did you say the wound closing is that what the word so

[00:13:29] so at the wound being about questioning it is yes

[00:13:42] I was thinking about that this issue

[00:13:49] that you know our brains go into overdrive it around especially around the why

[00:13:56] question this and it struck me that if I was to look at defining what healing was around that

[00:14:08] it's and it's probably an awe it's two things right so it's either getting to the truth

[00:14:26] like you did or it's being at peace with not getting to the truth

[00:14:38] agree

[00:14:43] because otherwise you know we're always are we always going to have more questions well let me ask you that

[00:14:51] right so did did did that lead to a cessation of of the questioning of your internal question

[00:15:03] no I still have lots of other questions less less painful questions but once the why

[00:15:12] had alignment between what I was raised with someone that I knew was not a biological parent but they

[00:15:20] took the responsibility except responsible raising me and what they shared with me as my why how I was

[00:15:28] brought into the world and once that was validated confirmed from my mom directly in her life

[00:15:35] that that was like the biggest I think pain point was having continuity there yeah but then of

[00:15:41] course I had other questions there was less writing on those questions I write yes 100%

[00:15:50] so the the getting they were less important questions with less

[00:15:58] importance attached to the getting the answers of yeah so it took the sting it took the sting out

[00:16:04] the questions really and the rest then maybe I don't know icing on the cake you know I'm trying

[00:16:12] to so true what I really haven't got an answer for this but what would you say to somebody that is

[00:16:23] listening that says well it's okay it's okay for Stephen because he got to his answers

[00:16:32] and I haven't got the answers that I need my my questions still have a lot writing writing on them

[00:16:43] yeah and it's all right for him what would you say to somebody in that position

[00:16:54] there's a lot of situations and life that have unopened or unanswered questions that we go through

[00:17:06] and we're always asking the why I mean little kids as they grow up

[00:17:10] estuary and verassure parent why why why like it's you're just trying to understand

[00:17:15] and I think there's just a human desire that if you knew why things happened you'd be able to

[00:17:23] handle or have a better perspective on it I had I was very fortunate with my adoption story to have

[00:17:32] two completely separate entities have a story that matched and I think that's the best thing that

[00:17:38] if if if someone's looking to get their child up be honest with yourself and with your child

[00:17:44] why if you're looking to adopt the kid be honest with as much of the story that you can find out

[00:17:49] because that that truth continuity if you want to call it that I think is very important

[00:17:55] for putting those kinds of answers in your kid's mind so that it doesn't become more traumatic

[00:18:03] if that's not your story and I realize mine is probably the minority of stories which what makes it

[00:18:08] so unique and special to me um

[00:18:10] I think if if the questions you had were a puzzle and you're missing five 10 20 50 pieces

[00:18:24] the only thought that comes to my mind is what can you do with what you have right you may not

[00:18:30] get all the answers but as there's some way that you can impact or share your story in a way where

[00:18:36] the pieces that you do have are not without a purpose there's there's not some people can be

[00:18:42] lean from them um so I have a sister and under sister she was also adopted same adoption agency

[00:18:50] very different adoption story uh she didn't have the same continuity from her mom her story

[00:18:57] and her mom's behaviors were very different than mine for reasons we're behind

[00:19:02] then we're very different and my sister and I are obviously different people different perspectives

[00:19:07] different experiences different personalities but she has really struggled because she hasn't

[00:19:13] gotten the clarity from her mom that matches up with the same story my parents shared with me

[00:19:19] about mine she shared with hers and it's true but from her mom that has been the disconnect and that's

[00:19:26] been very traumatizing for her and watching that play out in her adult life of trying to fix

[00:19:35] things in herself in her own family her own future that fill in those puzzle pieces that she didn't

[00:19:42] get answers for and the only thing I've ever encouraged her is hey do what you can with what you have

[00:19:48] because you may never get all the pieces but you weren't you didn't have a say in this situation

[00:19:56] so you know being maybe this comes across too far but you know being kind of a victim to other

[00:20:04] people's decisions about you is all way to respond but if you're able to use your story and accept

[00:20:12] it and share with others I believe that for more than you accept your story with the missing

[00:20:19] pieces the more those gaps kind of come together and you may have an incomplete puzzle

[00:20:25] but you have complete healing and acceptance of your story yeah

[00:20:35] as I had no answer at all whilst I took that question before I asked it

[00:20:42] I've had a few as you've been talking there's another book that

[00:20:57] what under the book there's a like I like this idea of the wisdom of trauma

[00:21:02] I

[00:21:06] I've

[00:21:06] some recommended this book by and I think the lady's called Tara Browns or Tara Brak or something

[00:21:12] and it's called radical acceptance

[00:21:18] so that that sounds like a good idea right radical acceptance like a regular acceptance okay

[00:21:24] so if if we could be you know like if we could be radically accept

[00:21:32] accepting I say what's the word accepting yeah that's the word isn't it

[00:21:38] radically accepting of the holes in our story you know what about that that for an idea

[00:21:47] that sounds pretty cool I read it radically if we could see the if we could see the wisdom in our trauma

[00:21:53] and if we could be radically accepting of the gaps the holes in our story that would be pretty

[00:22:01] that would be pretty cool and another thought that came to me was

[00:22:14] there's a book by an I don't see I think she could confess and it's something like the story

[00:22:21] it's the story about the gills that went away right and it's about birth months so if we can't get

[00:22:29] the truth from our birth month then maybe have a look at some of the truths from people that have

[00:22:37] it have gathered so that infect unfessible and also you could like check out some of their stories

[00:22:45] on the podcast so I put some links in I think we've had four or five birth mothers on the show

[00:22:56] so we could do that we can't get the information that we want from our birth mother maybe it would

[00:23:03] be useful to explore what the birth mother said and then the third thing that came to mind was

[00:23:10] from a guy who I am the fun of I'm named Jack all the time Rupert Spira and he

[00:23:17] listened to something from him today he was quoting a poet called Rumi and Rumi was talking about

[00:23:30] the mind sinking into the heart the mind sinking into the heart and what I took that to mean in this

[00:23:42] context is that the overreving mind right slowing down as it sinks into the like a peaceful heart

[00:23:57] and knowing so it's it's the the chatter in our head disappearing into the peacefulness of our heart

[00:24:16] I'd got a big pretty good to do as well yeah that inner dialogue that we all have and I

[00:24:27] signed to say you know minimum it's a little different but the amount of conversations that we have

[00:24:32] with ourselves on a daily basis that we don't even consciously realize or take note of it just

[00:24:40] because kind of the way that we operate is actually a huge aspect of how you deal with some

[00:24:47] of those aliens what do you tell yourself like I remember reading the book called what to say when

[00:24:53] you talk to yourself and remember thinking kind of strange title I don't out loud myself very

[00:25:00] often and he wasn't talking about you know talking verbally and conversing in yourself in that way

[00:25:06] it was more of those inner thoughts like what do you tell yourself what do you believe about yourself

[00:25:10] what do you believe about others that you have this dialogue within your own mind on assumptions

[00:25:19] conclusions you know things like that versus well let's find the real information or let's find

[00:25:27] the truth but that's scary and painful because sometimes the story we tell ourselves we'd like

[00:25:33] better than the reality so it's way easier to stay in our heads in a sense ago I like this story

[00:25:38] than it is to go how do I get healing from the truth and we've all heard whatever source or kind of

[00:25:45] releases you have about the truth sets you free I tend to believe that's a very true statement

[00:25:52] doesn't mean it doesn't come without pain and work and processing but to really not have shackles

[00:26:01] in your life knowing the truth I think it's a big part of that to the degree that you can't

[00:26:07] like you're talking about you mean I'll be able to get a complete picture have you heard of a book called

[00:26:13] The Chip Aradops you had a book called I have heard of it I have not read it though yeah so it's

[00:26:20] a British Psychologist Psychiatrist kind of guy and it basically is talking about different parts of

[00:26:28] the brain and there's a he hasn't been on the podcast I'm gonna about asked him maybe I should

[00:26:36] honor but I have had a neuro anatomist on the show barely recently called Jill Borti Taylor

[00:26:46] and she she talks about the four different four different characters of four different parts

[00:26:54] of our brain and one part and she she also won two three and four right and one of them

[00:27:08] and it's in our left brain it is actually the receptacle and the voice of all that negative

[00:27:18] South York so she's a neuro anatomist or neuroatomist she calls herself and can't remember

[00:27:26] to but she's saying and it's there during it so she's she's able to take something that we're all

[00:27:37] really one not all but a lot of us are aware of the fact that we have a voice in in our

[00:27:46] and an aware that there's different parts of our brains are fighting against one another right or

[00:27:56] or disagree or disagree let's go to put the fighting with each other or disagreeing with one another

[00:28:04] and but so we're aware of that but then for a neuro a neuroatomist or whatever to say actually

[00:28:11] there's a part of our brain that does that it it somehow for me there was a relief around that

[00:28:22] you know I'm not making this up yes I'm not making this up and there's a there's a lot of

[00:28:33] psychological education lots of trauma education out there

[00:28:41] and there's not a lot of healing education out there but this would seem that that kind

[00:28:50] of trauma education piece would seem to bring people peace that that piece brings needs some

[00:28:58] somehow if I am I can see how the different parts of my brain differ

[00:29:14] and that somehow brings me some peace I've been aware that the different parts of the brain I've

[00:29:26] listened to that Steve the chin paradox book and I've had it very very complicated and very very long

[00:29:35] but I'd somehow forgotten that there are different parts of the brain until I listen to another

[00:29:41] interview with this dual body tailor so that that brings a bit of peace so that's

[00:29:49] that's radical that's that's that's my thoughts on an acceptance I don't know what you have

[00:29:57] what I just heard somebody say something recently people don't overthink positive thoughts they

[00:30:04] only overthink negative outcomes and I thought interesting it's true if you're excited about

[00:30:10] something you think you're something going well you don't tend to put a lot of over analytical

[00:30:17] thoughts into it it's if you're concerned your hesitant you've had bad experiences you tend to be

[00:30:24] maybe a glass half full type person that tends to be where those subconscious thoughts and

[00:30:30] that that voice starts really just chattering away with what if what about you know those types of

[00:30:36] thoughts and I just never thought I never heard somebody so succinctly describe a positive thought

[00:30:43] tend to not have over analytical whereas something that's trimming negative or less optimistic tends to

[00:30:52] have more overthinking so just the interesting thought that someone shared on that that helps

[00:30:59] for me guide okay my thinking positive about something my exploring things with what can I

[00:31:05] learn and blink from this for my kind of exiting the situation because I'm overthinking and if I'm

[00:31:12] really honest with myself what could all go wrong right and just overthink myself right out of doing

[00:31:19] anything about it yeah I think that there is an inherent negativity bias

[00:31:31] that is there to try and keep us safe

[00:31:33] and I when I get near this I remember a story of me water skiing with my friend and his brother

[00:31:50] and I was so the brother was driving and he's on the right hand side because it's bricks right

[00:31:57] is on the he's in the right hand seat and I'm kneeling at the I'm kneeling my friend so

[00:32:05] my friend is water skiing my friend brother is driving I'm kneeling in the back seat looking

[00:32:11] back at the and my friend right and then suddenly the the the the bow does a 180 like on a

[00:32:23] six-pence it just flips in it and I'm like and I need I go over this I go over the side not actually

[00:32:31] into the water but my I bang my my stomach on the side of the bow and and it wins me and I get up

[00:32:43] and I'm like I get back up and I'm like what the yeah I try I can't get the words out you know to say

[00:32:50] to my friend friend's brother what the hell have you done and then and then I look at him

[00:32:56] and he's sat in the he's he's moved from the right seat to the left seat of the speedboat

[00:33:06] and he's still holding the accelerator in his hand it snapped so what actually happened was the

[00:33:15] the cable from the steering wheel of the cable yeah the cable from the steering wheel to the to

[00:33:21] the outboard motor had she had she had had snapped and outboard engines have an inbuilt negativity bias

[00:33:33] they have an inbuilt bias one way they don't it's like it's like rudder steering it's not it's not

[00:33:40] true all the time it's slightly off so the inbuilt the in the inbuilt bias caused the thing to flip

[00:33:47] you know the whole thing flip so that's what I think about them like then that's my metaphor for

[00:33:52] their inbuilt negativity bias that we have as as human beings absolutely but it's a good thing

[00:34:00] isn't it what would what would life be if we were overthinking positive yeah great yeah we've got

[00:34:08] life come through this challenge it's pain it's disappointment it's missed opportunities

[00:34:15] and I think a lot of that comes from just on med expectations that's a big thing is we go in a life

[00:34:23] expecting things in a certain way with a certain set of lenses on and then when things don't

[00:34:27] pan out like that how we respond has a lot to do with where we go from there but there's a lot

[00:34:34] of ways to respond because our own unique experiences and journeys one of the wisest things I've

[00:34:41] heard about expectations was an adoptee is from an adoptee or so a shrink I wish I could remember

[00:34:50] that's embarrassing she said that one of the biggest challenges

[00:34:59] that adoptees face in reunion is often they've done they've done some work right they've

[00:35:09] done some therapy or some counseling along the way and often the birth mothers have them

[00:35:17] so the birth mothers I'm clearly you know your mum birth mom had it fairly together right it sounds

[00:35:26] like she had it fairly together yeah whether she when they should go to that to the

[00:35:31] togetherness on her own whether she had some had some help or not I don't do you know have you got

[00:35:37] a feeling for that or she and her husband did use some calves that really on the mirrors just be

[00:35:44] because they found like every couple you have some argument you have some fights and you either

[00:35:49] you know split and go your separate way or you go hey let's see if we can find some resources to

[00:35:56] reduce the strides from this relationship and they did do that early on I don't know to

[00:36:00] a little bit degree that counseling or therapy or how long it was how intensive it was but she did

[00:36:06] do as a young woman and a new wife for a new family should they do something so we we have done

[00:36:16] some work we've moved on and this therapy said often birth mothers haven't they haven't done

[00:36:24] any work and therefore they can it's they're still stuck and people talk about

[00:36:31] and mothers talk about sorry other adoptees talk to me about this like they they haven't moved on

[00:36:41] at all and they want to mother us so they still you know we growing up but they still they

[00:36:50] they they haven't moved on so there's a still a natch they tend to see for them to to want to

[00:36:56] to mother us and the other thing on the acceptance bit that come that comes to mind as you were

[00:37:04] talking about something else was that the the serenity prayer is it um that's that people get

[00:37:13] out of 12 steps yeah props you know and the style set process so it's do you remember what it is

[00:37:22] I mean I don't remember what it's for word um let me even the whole thing to be perfectly honest

[00:37:31] um sorry I was asking that like you've been in AA and um happened right um so why would it why would

[00:37:40] we why would I expect you to to to know that um so it is uh god grant me the serenity to accept

[00:37:49] the things I cannot change courage to change the things I can and wisdom to know the difference

[00:37:57] yes um so there's there's a bit there's a bit of god there right and uh

[00:38:06] there's it or what some people make called spirituality

[00:38:09] and what strikes me is that you know I've been looking at this healing thing and it it

[00:38:21] fellow adoptee talked to me about this last week she was talking about healing on five levels

[00:38:27] um so here's a fact in a remedy right um psychological emotional um spiritual

[00:38:37] biological and relational so so far we've been talking mainly I think about the psychological

[00:38:52] and in emotional and in this bit now you know I've introduced this serenity

[00:38:59] uh we're in we're into kind of some spiritual elements the the biological one is the kind of

[00:39:10] did we talk about this last time this best old bandicole guy the body keeps the score right so

[00:39:16] this is kind of the trauma that's in our in our biology it's in ourselves right um and

[00:39:26] and then the then the the social and the relational one is the kind of like the healing

[00:39:33] healing in community healing in um

[00:39:39] let's call them smoother more loving relationships now uh and also

[00:39:45] uh in in in in in our relationships with our birth models are you surely yes and and the

[00:39:55] and the the relationship in community around you know talking to fellow adoptees and realizing

[00:40:03] that we're not going mad and you know that old saying you know it's a normal we're having a

[00:40:08] normal reaction to an abnormal event but because we haven't talked about it because we haven't

[00:40:14] we've only maybe had our siblings to talk about if they're adopted too like yours and mine

[00:40:20] but I've got a little sister too so um you know when we get in the in the space i'm just wondering how

[00:40:26] do you see that mix across those five sorts of healings

[00:40:32] the physical is something that I've only recently started diving into with what you just said

[00:40:44] the book that you mentioned the body keeps the score i don't know that that is necessarily the

[00:40:49] the trauma that that book talks about i don't know that that specifically applies to the

[00:40:56] the action of adoption but it certainly applies to just your your upbringing right you have

[00:41:04] you know your your hereditary nature your your environment that comes through your DNA and

[00:41:11] environment that you were raised around right and and you have some of those dynamics there um

[00:41:18] you know talks a little bit about what some people refer to as generational curses which

[00:41:23] doesn't necessarily have like the the wizardry or the spiritual things just maybe thought

[00:41:28] process and behaviors that have been accepted in one generation and so the next generation goes

[00:41:34] well this is an acceptable way to behave and they continue it on whether it's you know alcoholism

[00:41:39] or whatever form of addiction or it's just you know your first second third fourth fifth marriage

[00:41:45] whatever the case may be that can get that thought process can get passed down as well

[00:41:51] um the the relationship side of thing is definitely something that's been a journey for myself

[00:41:59] not as much with my biological mom quite honestly more with my adoptive mom

[00:42:04] right if i if i'm perfectly frank i've probably had more challenges and just trying to understand

[00:42:11] and accept their way of parenting their intent and desire and how they raised me and having

[00:42:19] less continuity in their own walk and talk more so i think that even just the fact that oh i was raised

[00:42:27] by someone that i'm not technically related to what was the story of of that and i think

[00:42:33] my healing moment came from just getting that answer for my mom the first time i met with her

[00:42:39] the spiritual side is definitely something that has been on my mind and heart the last few years

[00:42:45] and i don't share this with kind of a religious bend or connotation per se but just

[00:42:51] from the understanding who i am as a person

[00:42:57] who's i am right if you're someone that believes in a higher power or a creator like you were

[00:43:02] created with a purpose there's a purpose behind your story even if you have all the pieces and it

[00:43:08] just doesn't sit right with you or you're missing a lot of pieces or the pieces are broken

[00:43:12] and you know that the the understand of there's a purpose for this it's not a hat hazard

[00:43:20] somebody didn't create you to have a train wrecked life without a purpose behind it and so i've

[00:43:25] spent quite a lot of time really these last few years as my wife and i think about starting to

[00:43:31] have kids just trying to dive deeper into like who am i who's am i and if i accept me

[00:43:40] the byproduct of that is i start accepting other people and their stories their flaws their mistakes

[00:43:46] their poor judgments you get an understanding that they did the best they knew how they probably

[00:43:51] didn't have somebody in their life parent family friend mentor coach giving them things and once you

[00:43:58] can accept your story forgive yourself for the judgment that you might play in being part of

[00:44:08] the trauma which i don't think for most of us that's really the case we tend to think like that

[00:44:13] sometimes but if we can accept ourselves and our story then the byproduct is as we hear other people

[00:44:23] maybe it's adoptive family biological family you can understand their story and when you understand

[00:44:30] their story that that propensity in my mind of being offended or being resentful and resent

[00:44:40] and truly a prison that you build around yourself because of what someone else did doesn't affect

[00:44:44] them really resentment is something that eats at you but if you can accept yourself and your

[00:44:50] story then you can accept the other players in your story that did things the way it was models

[00:44:56] or the way that they thought was best yeah i don't know if that helps but i mean there's a lot

[00:45:00] that goes into it yeah there's a lot there um i just want to pick out a couple of things or one

[00:45:07] thing really put three three things together okay so you talked about your birth then you've talked

[00:45:14] about acceptance and you've talked about resentment right and so one of the biggest things i think we

[00:45:25] have one of the biggest things that i think we as adoptees so what gets in the way of acceptance

[00:45:38] for for for a lot of us is the resentment to our adoptive parents and sometimes of both parents as well

[00:45:55] it's like the barrier and the question that was forming as you were speaking was what stops us

[00:46:07] or what has stopped you accepting things

[00:46:11] you can't just probably just sorry no no no this but probably wishing the outcome was different

[00:46:26] that it really is like wishing things the kind of goes back to the serenity prayer of

[00:46:34] you know i wish something was different and looking at the past through the i wonder what it

[00:46:40] would have been like had been like this or if this hadn't happened um i think that's a big part at

[00:46:48] least for me first i'm not speaking for anybody else but i think that's that's probably the main thing

[00:46:55] at least kind of the top of my mind so if i was to sum it up

[00:47:05] firstly with the birth parents you know resentment towards the birth parents it's been you know what

[00:47:14] or it might be kind of forward thinking and not making much sense here i'm

[00:47:19] I've mentioned this idea came to me a few weeks ago is that we are a lot of us myself including

[00:47:34] and judging 60s and 70s parenting on 2023 2024 trauma education knowledge like it

[00:47:49] and it's not fair because it's like 50 years we're judging people on stuff that happened 50 years

[00:47:58] ago before this well you know Pramal wound wasn't even written until 1992 or 93 so by that time

[00:48:09] i was 26 right so how can we that that resentment resentment piece you know what we know why

[00:48:18] would they better why wouldn't our adopted parents better why didn't the parents has better

[00:48:28] and i think you it's on it's about that trauma education piece that's part of it but it's also about

[00:48:36] that um that generational stuff that you were talking about as well so you know they had

[00:48:43] they had the how what were their old models like right how were they parented how were

[00:48:49] they parented and you can go you can kind of go on forever but um what did you say uh resentment is

[00:48:56] a prison of our own making use that we said something like that yeah resentment is a prison that we

[00:49:02] build around ourselves because of the hurt someone else flipped it on us but it doesn't affect

[00:49:07] doesn't it prison them right it's it's something that that nags on us and holds us back because most

[00:49:18] people are not spending their time thinking about if someone resentful towards me they're

[00:49:23] living their life you have feelings towards them and it's kind of the kind of goes back it seems to

[00:49:28] that conversation of your inner dialogue like you're the only one dialogue in about how you feel towards

[00:49:34] them and usually resentment is not conversations you have it's that quiet voice that kind of builds up

[00:49:41] these thoughts repeatedly that you have towards them and that becomes this prison that you build around

[00:49:46] yourself and they're completely unimpacted by the prison you build around yourself yeah thinking that

[00:49:55] it would be you know affecting them uh I heard someone else say you know it's like you swallowing

[00:50:02] poison thinking it's gonna kill the person next to you it doesn't really work yeah like that um

[00:50:09] but it's art i mean it's that's probably one of the biggest struggles people have out there is

[00:50:16] forgiving people for doing things they felt were unfair unjust and wrong i think all of human

[00:50:22] existence has struggled with how do you forgive i'm not a big advocate of forgetting i don't think most

[00:50:29] people think that forgetting is even healthier wise but being able to forget someone and not judge

[00:50:35] them you use the term judge it's it's a journey in a process for all of us regardless of how severe

[00:50:43] our trauma was or the the players in all of that it just takes a lot of intentionality and time

[00:50:49] to to work through that because it's kind of how we were created it seems yeah i've heard that poison

[00:50:59] i've heard that poison um that's it for as well i like that too um and you summed out far

[00:51:06] quick and then i couldn't and then i can remember it so that i was because i was good at point towards

[00:51:10] it right but i thought i can't let you remember it you know um the uh i also heard something about

[00:51:19] forgiveness is that um that relies on the assumption that there is something to forgive in the first

[00:51:27] place so i'm struggling to put that into words

[00:51:35] what if there wasn't you know what if we could be radically radically acceptance what if we could

[00:51:43] take a leaf out Tara what's her name's book Tara Braticalt and be radically accepting

[00:51:48] accepting and actually rather than thinking i you know i've i must forgive them i must forgive them

[00:51:57] what if there was nothing to forgive in the first place

[00:52:05] i remember hearing a message that um so much shared and i remember the visual image actually there's

[00:52:12] two of them and they were completely separate people completely unrelated just the two images of my

[00:52:17] mind came together well the first one was you know what creates the resentment the animosity

[00:52:28] the grudge that you hold against someone he had this display and he took this piece of wood

[00:52:35] he's stuck in the ground like he would put enough offense together and he goes you know the first time

[00:52:42] the year life has an expectation and it's not met we're going to put this piece of wood here in

[00:52:48] the ground and then the next time your life expectations not met we're going to put this one here

[00:52:54] and then the next one the half is we're going to put this here and he goes as you go through life

[00:52:58] you just keep on getting these fence posts and he goes actually have 20-30 fence posts you have a fence

[00:53:05] right he's like you know but it didn't it wasn't that you built you didn't intend to

[00:53:10] people didn't necessarily intend to do it to you but on met expectations over and over and over again

[00:53:17] we call it being offended and enough offendine create offense and i just remember that mental image of

[00:53:23] oh yeah oh that's a great mental picture of like you know marriages or relationships that

[00:53:29] go sour was a lot of unmet expectations little by little one little situation after another

[00:53:35] and next thing you know you get a wall up and you know that other person is on one side of the wall

[00:53:41] and you're on this side and now you haven't done anything to really mend things and that the healing

[00:53:46] process is going through and and you can't do it all that's not your life goal but to go through

[00:53:54] and kind of uproot these fence posts one at a time to break down that wall of offense so that you

[00:54:01] can have kind of that that relationship restored um i thought that was such a great

[00:54:09] mental image coupled with another one that talked about you know he was wearing on stages wearing

[00:54:15] this black long sleeve jacket and had a bunch of deering hooks all over it all over the back

[00:54:23] the back of the arms etc and then he had chains connected from these hooks to the back wall

[00:54:29] that he was standing in front of and he said you know most of us go through life and this is more

[00:54:34] of a spiritual nature but i think the principle applies we're trying to get as far as we can

[00:54:40] as we go through life without ever unhooking the chains that hold us back right i just was thinking

[00:54:49] that's that's a great kind of mental image of you're going to go as far as you address

[00:54:55] the challenges the pains that hurt in your life because they're just going to attach you to where

[00:54:59] you are and you mentioned the body keeps the score same kind of information on things that aren't

[00:55:05] addressed gets stored somewhere and whether it's in your physical body or it's in your mind with

[00:55:11] a little self-paw or it's the relationship that the never gets restored it's the healing that never

[00:55:15] happens it's the therapy you never take if you don't go back in face i need to unhook this chain

[00:55:22] and you need to unhook that chain you need to unhook this chain so that you can make progress

[00:55:27] in life healing whatever the case maybe those two mental pictures have just been so

[00:55:33] helped well and encouraging for me to do things that are maybe scary uncomfortable like

[00:55:37] facing the reality of a situation or who you are with your deficits in life your fault or someone

[00:55:44] else's it's just added a little bit of hope that you can take another step forward it's like okay

[00:55:49] I want to take a fence post down and I want to unhook a chain and for me that's

[00:55:55] making progress in life in ways other than just you know take care of family pain bills your

[00:56:02] your home kind of your day-to-day responsibilities but your own personal worth so those were two

[00:56:07] things that would have been very helpful to have mental pictures of

[00:56:12] in working through your your healing journey yeah so you were talking about one starting with

[00:56:22] one fence post and you were talking about building a fence we're also talking about taking

[00:56:33] offense taking offense we're talking about both our fence and not offense you know as in offense

[00:56:40] defense American football right right that you're talking of taking offense taking offense building

[00:56:47] offense and taking offense I like that yeah um your other metaphor with the jackets I thought

[00:56:56] you were going to say just take the jacket off that that would be fair too sure sure um we could

[00:57:05] probably theorize different ways to take that analogy for sure I've um I came up with something yesterday

[00:57:12] on metaphors and so I want to try out on you and then so the idea is we're talking about the word

[00:57:19] grasp right so grasp has two two meanings like um the the fence metaphor right I think something

[00:57:31] we can grasp and therefore a metaphor takes something that is abstract and turns it into something

[00:57:42] that is concrete and when it's concrete we can grasp it we can grasp the concrete physically

[00:57:53] and we can grasp the metaphor um what's the word intellectually and I thought that that

[00:58:05] that's why metaphors are so good because otherwise it's just willy-nilly abstract

[00:58:13] vaporous vapor stuff nobody can get that you know we can't get our head round it when we say

[00:58:19] we say that we can't get our head round it well you can't get it there's nothing there right

[00:58:25] so we have to take something that's not a thing nothing and make it into a thing through a metaphor

[00:58:31] for us to to to grasp it yeah that's great so that's an ours just flown by

[00:58:42] been great I really enjoyed it yeah thanks for thanks for sharing and a lot of you to share it

[00:58:47] a little bit yeah thank you there's anything that you'd like to say as we close it off

[00:58:56] now this was this was wonderful I think the only only thought that I have is

[00:59:06] so much of what we'll talk about in life and doing work is our careers are jobs

[00:59:13] maybe it's raising our kids um I think one of the most valuable things that I have learned

[00:59:19] through reading listening having some good mentors and coaches is don't forget about the work

[00:59:26] on yourself it's not common you know societally it's not necessarily accepted we don't

[00:59:32] know I'm getting excited about what we talked about therapy or what counts will we have or

[00:59:37] you know turning down activities for something that's that's more self-oriented and I know

[00:59:46] by that mean being selfish but the journey of working on yourself is it's a process

[00:59:55] and I think there's so much value that comes out of it as painful as scary as daunting

[01:00:01] as it can be it's an aspect of work that it's overlooked that I found immense value in and talking

[01:00:09] with people out there just living life having conversations sharing my story finding people like

[01:00:16] you sign in that share that same uniqueness of our story of being adopted is

[01:00:20] you know open up a book talk with someone that that journey of self-development and healing

[01:00:30] doesn't have to be fast it's not instant it takes time and of course it's it's painful but it's

[01:00:36] worth it if nothing else I think I think somebody said if you don't if you don't picture wounds

[01:00:42] you'll bleed out on everybody else and I just remember thinking I don't really want to do that

[01:00:47] to people so I wanted to do work on myself so that's all I'll share so thank you for the

[01:00:53] the opportunity and sign this and great right thanks a lot listeners we'll speak to you soon

[01:00:58] take care bye