At Our Best With Christine Tangel

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Christine Tangel. Looking forward to our conversation today, Christine.

[00:00:11] I'm looking forward to it too. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:15] Wow. So I just say to Christine, this is the penultimate recording of the podcast of the year of 2024. So it's been quite a year and continues just to...

[00:00:27] We keep on flowing with the thriving theme. And so the first question really, Christine, I'd like to start with is, what does thriving mean to you?

[00:00:39] Oh, what a good question. An excellent question for winding down the end of the year, I think.

[00:00:45] So, you know, I think thriving is probably... You know, my background is as a therapist. And so I think about people's emotional wellbeing.

[00:00:58] And I would say thriving is the place we all hope to be. It's when we are not just getting by, but really are able to feel like we're our best selves.

[00:01:13] Yeah. So, I mean, you said emotional wellbeing, you said feel, feel our best selves. So it's clearly in that zone, right?

[00:01:26] Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:01:27] It's clearly in that zone for you. I also got a feeling from what you were saying that it was...

[00:01:36] You were talking about... On one sense, you seem to be talking about a goal. And on another sense, you seem to be about talking about the here and now as well. So...

[00:01:47] Yes. I think, you know, I don't think thriving can be a goal necessarily. I think it's the... It's probably the way you are as you are looking towards your goals maybe.

[00:02:00] But that it's really... It's really about feeling like, you know, maybe that you've reached a certain level of healing, let's say.

[00:02:15] That things are operating in your life in a way that feels... Maybe lets your creativity spark through, allows for some reflection.

[00:02:33] That it's really a place where... That you're feeling pretty...

[00:02:43] ...whole and put together. Yeah.

[00:02:46] In where you are. Yeah.

[00:02:48] Yeah. Because that feeling of wholeness seems to be different to feelings. Like, life is, for many of us, like an emotional roller coaster.

[00:03:12] Mm-hmm. Whereas feeling whole seems to be different to that somehow.

[00:03:19] Yeah. I think you can have both of those experiences.

[00:03:25] So...

[00:03:25] Maybe to go back just a moment, you know, my...

[00:03:29] I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be introduced with you.

[00:03:35] I... My work, my professional life is supporting adopted people and their families.

[00:03:41] I don't, myself, have a personal connection to adoption.

[00:03:47] So...

[00:03:48] I am very honored by learning from people who have the experience.

[00:03:54] And so when you say things like feeling or highlight that idea of feeling whole, to me, I can't help, of course, but think about all of the good work that adopted people are doing.

[00:04:09] Um...

[00:04:10] Both, you know, privately with me in therapy and then out in the world, in the community like you are.

[00:04:16] Um...

[00:04:17] Where it is about being able to claim your whole identity, your whole experience as a person moving through the world.

[00:04:27] Yeah. Thank you. And I'm honored that you're here as well, right?

[00:04:31] We're just...

[00:04:32] We're all walking each other, everybody home, right?

[00:04:35] Um...

[00:04:36] I guess it's one of the...

[00:04:38] Uh...

[00:04:39] I don't think that...

[00:04:40] That isn't yet a cliche yet, but, you know, it's true though.

[00:04:43] Mm-hmm. It's true.

[00:04:44] Clichés, often clichés become clichés because they're true.

[00:04:47] Uh...

[00:04:48] Yeah, I...

[00:04:49] What I was thinking about was one of...

[00:04:55] There's a feeling of wholeness that is about longevity and security and...

[00:05:04] Uh...

[00:05:05] And a general okay-ish-ness in the world.

[00:05:12] And that is more stable than the kind of the emotional rollercoaster.

[00:05:20] Um...

[00:05:21] So what...

[00:05:22] My own take on this is, as we...

[00:05:28] And I think what I've heard from other adoptees as well, and adopted parents too, is that...

[00:05:38] The...

[00:05:40] The wholer...

[00:05:41] The wholer we feel at our essence, the...

[00:05:46] The...

[00:05:48] Easier...

[00:05:49] The emotional rollercoaster is, right?

[00:05:53] Yeah.

[00:05:53] So the...

[00:05:54] The downs don't get us as much.

[00:05:59] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:59] Uh...

[00:06:00] The downs don't get us as much because that inner sense of okayness means that we're less...

[00:06:11] Bothered about our feelings in a certain way.

[00:06:14] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:16] So...

[00:06:17] I...

[00:06:17] For me, this is about...

[00:06:20] Um...

[00:06:23] I'm more interested in who I am than how I feel.

[00:06:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:06:29] And I know that I can...

[00:06:32] I took...

[00:06:33] The metaphor I have for this is...

[00:06:36] If I'm an...

[00:06:37] I'm really not very coordinated at all, right?

[00:06:41] Physically coordinated and high-end...

[00:06:44] Hand-eye coordination and stuff like that, right?

[00:06:46] So I'm a swimmer, not a squash player.

[00:06:48] Okay.

[00:06:49] Do you know what I mean?

[00:06:49] And I'm not very good at...

[00:06:51] I'm not very good at practical stuff like DIY, spatial awareness, reversing cars, parking cars.

[00:06:58] I'm not very good at that, right?

[00:06:59] But if...

[00:07:00] If I was to be...

[00:07:02] I would be a basket case on a high wire, right?

[00:07:06] Mm-hmm.

[00:07:06] I haven't got that kind of posture and, you know, deportment, all that sort of stuff.

[00:07:12] But I'm not as bothered about falling.

[00:07:18] I'm not as bothered about falling because I know there's the safety net is there.

[00:07:26] I'm not...

[00:07:28] I don't think I'm going to drown in my tears.

[00:07:32] Yeah.

[00:07:32] Yeah.

[00:07:33] Trauma can feel like it's going to overwhelm us.

[00:07:38] Right.

[00:07:38] And we're going to drown in our tears.

[00:07:40] And so we're very attuned.

[00:07:44] I'm not feeling good.

[00:07:45] I'm not feeling good.

[00:07:46] I'm not feeling good.

[00:07:46] I'm...

[00:07:47] I think as we go along the healing journey, we're less bothered by the ups and downs of our feelings because we're less identified with our feelings.

[00:08:03] We're less identified with our trauma.

[00:08:05] We're less identified by the emotional rollercoaster.

[00:08:08] I wonder if that's also...

[00:08:11] I love to talk about the idea of being curious, both in, you know, in therapy sessions, but I think also just in terms of, I guess, coming to life with that sort of principle, right?

[00:08:26] So, you can be curious about why you may feel an intense feeling at a certain time, or you may be curious about what your experiences have led you to, you know, to make choices that you're making.

[00:08:41] And I think that that's a really helpful way to, to tackle these things, right?

[00:08:47] That it's not...

[00:08:48] Your feeling isn't necessarily of your essence, right?

[00:08:53] That it will never be different.

[00:08:55] That you can wonder why you're feeling this way now.

[00:08:59] And, and you can wonder what impact that experience had on you.

[00:09:03] But it doesn't, it doesn't change, like you said, sort of who, who you are at your core.

[00:09:10] Yeah.

[00:09:13] And I think curiosity is, is huge.

[00:09:19] And, and it, but for me, it can be a, it can be a rabbit hole as well, where we're looking, where we're looking for what caused that, rather than it did, for me, it kind of, it can take me down the rabbit hole.

[00:09:38] If I'm, if I'm curious, if I'm curious about the, you know, what is the, what is the cause of this effect?

[00:09:47] I am feeling at effect.

[00:09:48] Well, but the, the curiosity, I think, is in terms of curiosity about who we are, for example, who we are beyond our, beyond our emotions, beyond our, our trauma, beyond our beliefs.

[00:10:10] So I, I think about, I think that's, that's, that's huge.

[00:10:15] And, and the, and the biggest, one of the biggest barriers to, barriers on the healing journey is the belief that we can't heal.

[00:10:28] Sure.

[00:10:29] Sure.

[00:10:30] Yeah.

[00:10:30] If you set yourself up to say, you'll never reach that.

[00:10:33] Um, it makes it really hard to, to have the energy to do it.

[00:10:37] It makes it really hard.

[00:10:38] And if we, if, if, cause obviously we're, we're social, we're social animals.

[00:10:45] So if we don't believe that we can heal and we hang around with other people that believe, that don't believe we can heal, then that's gonna, that's, uh, is that what you guys call, uh, conflict?

[00:11:02] That's gonna, that's gonna, uh, jack up our confirmation bias, is it?

[00:11:06] Mm.

[00:11:07] Yeah.

[00:11:07] For, absolutely.

[00:11:08] Yeah.

[00:11:09] Um, so could, could you give it, cause you'll, you'll explain it far better than me.

[00:11:13] You'll define that, that term.

[00:11:16] So I think it's, maybe it's the opposite.

[00:11:18] It's confirmation bias.

[00:11:20] Is that the opposite of curiosity?

[00:11:23] Oh, that's a good question.

[00:11:25] So confirmation bias means you seek out data that, uh, um, that, that already, that backs up what you're doing.

[00:11:36] Would you already think about something?

[00:11:39] Um, so.

[00:11:40] And we believe.

[00:11:42] Right.

[00:11:42] Do we, we, we, we seek it out and we also believe it.

[00:11:46] So it, it, it's the, isn't it the thinker, what the thinker thinks, the prover proves is, is the one that kind of, I've heard about it.

[00:11:53] Yeah.

[00:11:53] Yeah.

[00:11:54] Yeah.

[00:11:54] So, yeah, I think in some ways, um, as long as you believe that to, to truly have curiosity, you have to be open to a number of possibilities, then yes, I think those, those are opposites.

[00:12:08] Yeah.

[00:12:10] Yeah.

[00:12:10] Yeah.

[00:12:12] Yeah.

[00:12:13] What, what do you think helps us thrive?

[00:12:18] Hmm.

[00:12:22] Well, I.

[00:12:23] What helped you thrive if you want to answer it?

[00:12:26] Answer it.

[00:12:27] Any, which way you like.

[00:12:28] You know, I think one of, this is for me personally, and certainly in my work as well.

[00:12:34] I think.

[00:12:36] When we are thriving.

[00:12:39] We are very connected both in our brains and our bodies to what is happening.

[00:12:45] And so, um, the idea, and this is again, something I practice myself, but I think people should move their bodies.

[00:12:54] They should get out in nature.

[00:12:56] Um, they should be aware of the sensations that are happening internally to them and how that tracks to the way we think and feel about things.

[00:13:06] Um, and that, that idea that we cannot live separate, right?

[00:13:10] We cannot just be in our brains and we cannot just be in our bodies, but they have to come together.

[00:13:14] Um, and I have seen a lot of healing.

[00:13:19] In that perspective.

[00:13:21] Um, I think particularly when we talk about folks who have had experiences very early in their life before they had consciousness about what was happening, had, had words and cognitions.

[00:13:36] To explain what was happening.

[00:13:37] Um, there's no way to get to that stuff except to, to, to go to the source, to go to what your body remembers about that.

[00:13:46] Yeah.

[00:13:47] Yeah.

[00:13:50] Can you believe it's only 10 years since the body keeps the score came out?

[00:13:54] I, I, it is both.

[00:13:57] It's, yes, it is both way too young.

[00:14:01] Um, and it's also, I mean, it's, it's given us a decade of really good, um, a good foundation at the same time.

[00:14:08] I read somewhere.

[00:14:10] I don't know if it's true, but like there's 5 million copies of that book.

[00:14:12] So.

[00:14:13] Oh, well, I think that's wonderful.

[00:14:16] I hope I'm remembering it right.

[00:14:19] Um, yeah, I just want to go back to the, uh, to the feeling bit because I was, I think I didn't really spell my point out.

[00:14:29] I don't, I, for me, thriving is, it doesn't mean feeling good all the time.

[00:14:34] Mm.

[00:14:34] For me, it means not feeling bad about feeling bad.

[00:14:39] Mm.

[00:14:40] Right.

[00:14:41] The acceptance.

[00:14:42] Not fighting, not fighting our feelings.

[00:14:44] So I used, uh, uh, I used to worry about worrying.

[00:14:50] Mm.

[00:14:50] Yeah.

[00:14:51] So I've done all this work.

[00:14:52] Why am I still worrying?

[00:14:54] Yeah.

[00:14:54] And I wouldn't, and I didn't do it with a smile on my face.

[00:14:56] Right.

[00:14:56] I'm doing this with a smile on the face now.

[00:14:58] And, and a coach I had once, uh, must've been gotta be 10 years ago.

[00:15:05] He, he just called me out on that or showed me a different perspective on that.

[00:15:10] Ask me a question about that.

[00:15:12] You know, he encouraged my curiosity to use your, uh, your, your word.

[00:15:17] Uh, and, and since then I've been doing less worrying about worrying.

[00:15:24] Mm.

[00:15:25] Sure.

[00:15:26] Sure.

[00:15:26] Um, so, so just cause I didn't think it was Cliff.

[00:15:30] So for me, thriving doesn't mean feeling great all the time.

[00:15:32] We're not, we're not going to villainize.

[00:15:35] We're not going to villainize our feelings that that's what we resist, persist, all that

[00:15:40] sort of stuff.

[00:15:41] Um, so, uh, when we, before I mentioned that, um, book, you would, you were alluding to what

[00:15:52] I think some people call top, top down and bottom up in the, so the bottom up stuff is,

[00:16:01] is the somatic stuff and the top down is the kind of the more rational stuff.

[00:16:06] Can you share a little bit on that?

[00:16:10] Sure.

[00:16:10] Yeah.

[00:16:11] I think, um, again, I think it's important to focus on the connection between the two,

[00:16:20] right.

[00:16:20] That are the way our body physically feels informs, uh, how we feel emotionally and what

[00:16:28] we think.

[00:16:29] Um, so, uh, you know, unfortunately if our nervous systems are in a place where they're

[00:16:35] very sensitive, um, it will trigger us perhaps to think that something's wrong, that we have

[00:16:42] something to worry about when in fact everything in our environment is actually status quo.

[00:16:47] Um, and so when that happens, we have to remind ourselves that, that, you know, sort of thanks

[00:16:54] body, but you're, uh, you're giving me too much information right now, right?

[00:16:58] That's not helpful.

[00:16:59] And the opposite as well, which is if we feel anxious, it can start in our brains as well.

[00:17:06] Um, as an example that our body will respond to that idea that, oh, I guess we do need to be

[00:17:12] ready for something.

[00:17:13] Um, uh, and, uh, and in that way, I often talk about how anxiety can, can play tricks on us.

[00:17:20] Um, that it is alerting us to something that perhaps isn't in need of worry, like you were

[00:17:25] saying.

[00:17:26] Yeah.

[00:17:27] Is that what, what people mean by this hype, this term hypervigilance is yes.

[00:17:34] Yeah.

[00:17:34] Yes.

[00:17:35] Yeah.

[00:17:37] Um, I love that answer.

[00:17:41] Uh, and it was, uh, and, and I thought you were going to go one way on it and you went,

[00:17:45] uh, you went a completely different way.

[00:17:48] So I think that's brilliant.

[00:17:50] I love it.

[00:17:50] I'm more curious about that.

[00:17:53] So can you perhaps give us, I'm, I'm better, I'm better with, uh, examples.

[00:18:00] Okay.

[00:18:00] Um, I think I don't, I'm not a theory guy.

[00:18:04] I'm a, an examples guy.

[00:18:06] Um, so could you give a, an example of what you're talking about just for me to get, get

[00:18:14] it, perhaps grasp it a little better.

[00:18:15] Um, sure.

[00:18:17] Let me think of an example.

[00:18:19] Um, I think, uh, so almost anybody who has touched therapy in some way has, or I don't

[00:18:30] know, scrolled on Instagram about therapy.

[00:18:33] Here's something about why that you should, oh, to calm down, to relax.

[00:18:38] You should take deep breaths.

[00:18:40] Right.

[00:18:40] And you're like, well, yeah, maybe that's not really my style or you shouldn't meditate.

[00:18:44] Right.

[00:18:45] There's these examples that get thrown out there and some people are like, oh, I feel silly

[00:18:51] when I'm doing that.

[00:18:51] Or that's, I breathe all, all the time.

[00:18:54] Why would this kind of breathing help me?

[00:18:57] Um, and so I think when, when, when you're looking at the fact that your brain and your

[00:19:03] body are connected, um, what you can be reminded of is, um, like, okay, well, why would I, why

[00:19:12] is breathing going to help me with my anxiety?

[00:19:15] That's silly.

[00:19:16] Cause it's the thoughts in my head.

[00:19:17] Right.

[00:19:18] Well, so if we know that taking deeper breaths actually brings more oxygen into our bodies,

[00:19:24] right?

[00:19:25] It actually, it, what it actually does is allows our bodies to get more of what it needs and

[00:19:32] to regulate itself.

[00:19:34] Um, and so, um, and that message loop that's going from, from what our nervous system is experiencing

[00:19:41] into our brains is actually now, um, telling a different story to our brains that like, you

[00:19:48] know, actually the house is not on fire.

[00:19:50] Um, um, that was, you know, that was what was going on in my body, um, with a relatively

[00:19:57] simple exercise, I've changed the way sort of my body chemistry is responding to this.

[00:20:04] So, um, I don't know how, but I think that's a good example of, of why, how an intervention

[00:20:14] could work.

[00:20:15] Right.

[00:20:16] So you're giving a very practical example.

[00:20:19] That's like holistic.

[00:20:20] Uh, when people say this word holistic, you're talking about brain, uh, you know, brain and

[00:20:26] body, uh, and what you, you talked about moving, moving the body as well.

[00:20:32] Yeah.

[00:20:33] So I would, I would be one of those people that find deep doing the deep breathing stuff.

[00:20:40] Um, makes me feel a little bit weird.

[00:20:45] However, however, I do swim and, and I swim at a fair kind of lick.

[00:20:54] A fair lick.

[00:20:55] Does that mean anything in, in, in American English?

[00:20:58] Lick?

[00:20:59] A fair lick.

[00:21:00] Yeah.

[00:21:00] Um, I understand what you're talking about.

[00:21:03] Pace.

[00:21:03] Yeah.

[00:21:04] Um, I was watching, we were watching blue bloods last night, which is set in New York, you

[00:21:12] know, with Tom Selleck.

[00:21:13] Yeah.

[00:21:14] It's the, yeah.

[00:21:15] Um, and they had this English guy who was clearly not English, you know, he was an

[00:21:19] American actor and he was using all these phrases, but you know, slang British slang,

[00:21:25] but he was using too many of them.

[00:21:27] And you would never put those two things together.

[00:21:30] Yeah.

[00:21:31] You know, you would, yeah.

[00:21:32] I, I need to, I need to give him a bell on the phone or give him a bell on the phone.

[00:21:39] No, you just say, you need to give him a bell.

[00:21:41] That's enough.

[00:21:41] You don't need to have to do.

[00:21:43] I need to give him a bell on the dog and bone, right?

[00:21:46] Cockley rhyming slang, dog and bone is phone, right?

[00:21:49] But you just never do that.

[00:21:50] You just say, I need to give him a bell.

[00:21:52] That's it.

[00:21:53] Um, so yeah, a fair lick.

[00:21:55] So I'm swimming at a fair lick and that is actually, um, cause causing me to, to breathe

[00:22:04] more deeply, especially when I turn around at the end.

[00:22:08] Right.

[00:22:08] So I do a big, I do a big grab of the side of the pool and a big in breath and then blow

[00:22:16] it out and kick off quite explosively.

[00:22:19] Yeah.

[00:22:20] Yeah.

[00:22:21] I think, yeah.

[00:22:22] Swimming is a beautiful example and you know, Simon to prove my point, um, part of what

[00:22:27] swimming does if you're doing it properly, as you know, right, is that you, um, you,

[00:22:32] you're supposed to breathe at regular paces, right?

[00:22:37] So there's a rhythm that you have to do.

[00:22:40] Um, if you're a swimmer that, that really makes sure that you're not like, you know, hyperventilating,

[00:22:47] right?

[00:22:47] Breathing too much or breathing too little, um, that actually bringing the oxygen in and

[00:22:51] letting it out is coming at this, uh, this measured pace.

[00:22:56] Um, and the other thing that swimming, running, walking, any of that bilateral,

[00:23:03] uh, movement does is helps both of your sides of your brain talk to each other.

[00:23:08] Right.

[00:23:08] Because you're, you know, what you're, you're left and your right need to know what each

[00:23:13] other is doing.

[00:23:13] Um, and those are all beautiful things, uh, to help regulate our, our, our brains and

[00:23:20] our bodies.

[00:23:22] I pick up a, uh, uh, a lot.

[00:23:27] I think I was trying to think of a nice word for him.

[00:23:29] Um, I can't, no, uh, a lot of useless information, but it comes, sometimes it comes in handy.

[00:23:39] Um, so have you heard that the Eskimos call us, uh, Westerners, the shallow breathers?

[00:23:46] Have you heard that?

[00:23:47] No, I have not heard that.

[00:23:48] Shallow breathers.

[00:23:49] Right.

[00:23:50] So, you know, I, I think you, you, you, sometimes you forget to breathe.

[00:23:55] Like, um, so the, the, the routine of exercise to help us do that.

[00:24:01] Um, so, so you, you were talking about the connection between the brain and the body and

[00:24:10] more oxygen, more oxygen in is, is it the same with drinking water?

[00:24:16] Cause people tell us that we need to drink more, more water, dehydration and stuff like

[00:24:22] that.

[00:24:23] You know, I, I, getting good sleep.

[00:24:26] Oh man.

[00:24:27] Yes.

[00:24:28] Right.

[00:24:28] Like if you treat your body well, you just feel better in general.

[00:24:31] But, um, uh, I remember, and I'm not going to remember all the details of it.

[00:24:37] I also like to pick up bits of information, but, um,

[00:24:41] Cognucopia, that's what I was.

[00:24:44] Ah, yes.

[00:24:45] And it's not even the right word, but it sounds, I pick up a cornucopia of information.

[00:24:51] Yeah.

[00:24:51] Sorry, Christine.

[00:24:52] Put it all together.

[00:24:54] Um, yes.

[00:24:56] I think all of those things are true.

[00:24:58] Um, it reminds me, uh, are you familiar with, um, trust based relational intervention?

[00:25:06] Yeah.

[00:25:07] Okay.

[00:25:08] Yes.

[00:25:08] Yeah.

[00:25:09] So, um, there's this one, uh, I remember watching this one clip about, so this is like, sort of the basics of helping kids regulate.

[00:25:20] Right.

[00:25:20] And it was, you know, to, to check, to make sure that like they're drinking enough, enough water and eating at regular, uh, intervals.

[00:25:31] Right.

[00:25:31] And, and so to think about that as a way, you know, I would wonder actually for people who are listening to this, who might think, man, yeah, thriving sounds great.

[00:25:41] How do I get there?

[00:25:43] Right.

[00:25:43] Like that's, that's, that does feel like a goal or it feels like a reach to be able to be somebody who feels as put together as Christine and Simon are talking about.

[00:25:54] But if you were to break it down and say, what does your sleep look like?

[00:26:00] Are you drinking enough through the day?

[00:26:03] Um, can you tell when your body is hungry and can you put some, some nutritious food into your body?

[00:26:09] Um, as a start, right?

[00:26:12] Like that is, oh, that is helping folks get to your definition of thriving.

[00:26:20] Right.

[00:26:20] Like that maybe that feels more attainable.

[00:26:24] Yeah.

[00:26:25] And as you're explaining the, the routine of this and she's drinking water, ladies and gentlemen.

[00:26:33] Right here.

[00:26:33] And I've got a really, it's gone now, but it was a massive mug of tea because I'm British.

[00:26:40] Right.

[00:26:40] Somebody asked me yesterday, dear American, um, uh, so, you know, you Brits, you know, what about you, Simon and your tea?

[00:26:49] What's, what's your routine?

[00:26:50] I said, well, tea for breakfast, two coffees in the morning, tea in the afternoon.

[00:26:55] Oh, right.

[00:26:55] So you do drink coffee as well?

[00:26:56] Yes, we do drink coffee as well.

[00:26:58] Um, I was, as you were talking about the routine, I was thinking about what often, you know, when we hear about stories about, uh, of kids that have been taken into foster care or into, you know, they've come from a neglect and they're being removed.

[00:27:17] And people often talk about the chaos, the chaos within that setting.

[00:27:25] Sure.

[00:27:26] I make the difference, the distinction clearly between the chaos in that setting and the routine of the setting.

[00:27:34] And I'm thinking about my routine of walking the dog and having too much caffeine, right?

[00:27:40] Maybe I should have caffeine less.

[00:27:42] Um, and, uh, oh yeah, no, no, I have no alcohol beer during the week.

[00:27:46] Right.

[00:27:46] So it feels like I'm having a beer, but it's 0.005 or whatever.

[00:27:50] Right.

[00:27:50] So I'm thinking routine, we can, we can get into that.

[00:27:54] We can get into that.

[00:27:55] We can get into that routine or we can tweak our routine and hopefully our body is going to reward us for that.

[00:28:04] Um, with drinking more water, going to bed earlier, maybe lying in more, you know, uh, if we're teenagers, that's what happens to them.

[00:28:14] Um, so, so that this is all about, um, the bottom up, uh, bottom up approach where I thought you were going to go with bottom up was like, kind of like somatic therapy and stuff like that.

[00:28:29] But, uh, but you know, but you know, I, I, so I'm seeing a somatic experiencing lady at the moment and she, she, she goes, she went on holiday, um, in the summer and she went dancing.

[00:28:41] Right.

[00:28:41] She said, yeah, so she's a somatic experiencer, but she throws herself into the, into the dance and, and she's, she's dancing a lot more than I'm swimming.

[00:28:53] Yeah.

[00:28:53] Yeah.

[00:28:54] Yeah.

[00:28:55] I've actually, uh, I've heard, uh, I'm not surprised to hear that.

[00:28:58] Um, I think, um, I think this was a Bessel van der Kolk talk, um, where it was something like, you know, the idea of actually moving your body with other people who are doing the same thing, um, is a very healing experience from trauma as well.

[00:29:16] Um, because I think one is there is a predictability, right?

[00:29:20] Everybody does the same thing at the same time.

[00:29:23] Um, when you're, you know, dancing, uh, I'm sure doing yoga, there's probably other things to rate that where everyone's doing the same thing.

[00:29:33] Uh, I could imagine like singing in a group would be similar to that.

[00:29:37] Um, but that, that experience is, is, is really beautiful for, for again, for your whole self to, to experience that.

[00:29:46] Um, there's, uh, there's predictability in it.

[00:29:49] Um, it's enjoyable.

[00:29:51] It feels good.

[00:29:52] Um, and that the idea that you can trust what, what you see in other people, um, in this very concrete way, I think is, um, is, is all part of what makes that so helpful.

[00:30:05] Yeah.

[00:30:08] And I, I, I talk about this some time.

[00:30:13] I talk about this sometimes, uh, I don't know whether, I don't know the, what extent I explain it enough for it to land.

[00:30:23] It's, it's the sense of oneness.

[00:30:29] It's, it's, you know, as you, just before you said singing in a group, I was thinking singing in a group, but I actually was thinking about it.

[00:30:39] I was thinking about my sister-in-law who sings, used to sing in a, in a choir.

[00:30:44] Um, and you're, you're, you're, you're one, you're, you're one being, aren't you?

[00:30:53] You, you are a choir.

[00:30:54] You are not, she's called Vow, right?

[00:30:57] So you're, you're Vow, and, and you're one of the choir.

[00:31:02] But in, in that, in, in that, um, in that moment, in those moments, in, in the hour of singing or 10 minutes of singing, whatever it is, you, you are part of the choir.

[00:31:15] You are part of something bigger than yourself.

[00:31:19] You are, you are, you are at, at one, as one.

[00:31:26] And I'm thinking about Mexican waves.

[00:31:29] Do you remember that Mexican waves?

[00:31:31] They came.

[00:31:31] No.

[00:31:32] So a Mexican wave, it's the Mexicans started it in football, like soccer, right?

[00:31:40] In, in, maybe in the seventies.

[00:31:42] Mm-hmm.

[00:31:42] So if there was a, a, a lull in proceeding, so maybe somebody was getting treatment, you know, that, that fallen over, they've been tackled too hard and, uh, the physios come on the pitch.

[00:31:54] Yeah.

[00:31:55] To, you know, to, to give the guy some water and to rub his ankle for him.

[00:31:59] Um, does it, they do a Mexican wave, which means it really is a ripple around the stage.

[00:32:05] Mm-hmm.

[00:32:05] Sorry, a ripple around the crowd and it goes and it starts off.

[00:32:11] And then it goes all the way, all the way around the arena or around the stadium.

[00:32:16] And you are as, as one and you are no longer little me, you are we.

[00:32:26] This is a sense of connectedness.

[00:32:30] Yeah.

[00:32:30] Yeah.

[00:32:34] And as soon as I say that, I think of, um, Dick Schwartz and the internal family systems and his, one of his C's is connectedness.

[00:32:46] Sure.

[00:32:48] And, and that you get that sense of connectedness in a yoga class.

[00:32:53] Absolutely.

[00:32:54] Absolutely.

[00:32:54] In a Mexican way, in a choir and just you and me now.

[00:33:04] Right.

[00:33:05] Yeah.

[00:33:06] I think, um, perhaps what we're doing is a little, uh, intellectualizing of it, but absolutely that, um, I think that when, you know, if you were to provide those building blocks for people about things to try, right.

[00:33:23] To feel more whole, to feel closer to thriving.

[00:33:28] Um, when you say like, go, what's a way you'd like to move your body with other people, right?

[00:33:36] Go, go join, you know, are people meeting together and singing?

[00:33:41] Are they doing, do you want to do yoga?

[00:33:42] Yeah.

[00:33:43] And, and for some people there's pieces of that, like you said, deep breathing seems silly, right?

[00:33:47] Like, okay.

[00:33:49] But, you know, the breathing you're doing during swimming is the same.

[00:33:54] Yeah.

[00:33:54] You want to, you want to do it with, you know, bringing your.

[00:33:57] I want to do it as a byproduct.

[00:33:58] I want to do it as a byproduct of something else.

[00:34:01] Right.

[00:34:01] Yeah.

[00:34:02] Yeah.

[00:34:02] And that's, that's great.

[00:34:03] Right.

[00:34:03] Everyone will find that, um, that way of, of getting there.

[00:34:07] I think.

[00:34:08] Yeah.

[00:34:10] What about sleep?

[00:34:12] What about sleep?

[00:34:14] Oh, I love sleep.

[00:34:15] Um, I think, well, I think sleep is such an interesting.

[00:34:22] Piece of our, our world in terms of our culture, right?

[00:34:27] You, if, um, anybody who has been around, uh, young children or parents of young children

[00:34:33] will hear about how horrendous is it, it is to not get sleep.

[00:34:39] Um, but I think, I think the idea that, um, similarly, as you said to our, our shallow breathing,

[00:34:49] potentially, uh, it's easy to do sleep wrong.

[00:34:52] Um, you, you don't just do it right, uh, just because you have a place to lay down.

[00:34:59] Right.

[00:34:59] So, so the idea that, um, that we are building habits and routines that are going to make

[00:35:07] for, um, for better sleep for us, that, you know, as you, you said earlier, going to bed

[00:35:13] earlier is actually, um, that's better sleep than sleeping late in, in the morning.

[00:35:20] Um, so I think once you get these techniques and figure out how they're going to work in your

[00:35:26] life, um, what changes you can make, um, or what, what things you, you know, what recommendations

[00:35:34] you sort of need to follow, uh, I think it's important, but sleep, sleep is a big one.

[00:35:39] That's your, that's your whole body resetting.

[00:35:44] Oh, as we're, as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, isn't it interesting?

[00:35:49] We're talking, we're here, I'm talking to a therapist and we're talking about sleeping.

[00:35:54] We're not talking about, you know, tell us about your childhood, Simon, you know, tell

[00:36:01] me about your earliest attachment figure, all that sort of stuff.

[00:36:03] Um, and I'm thinking about curiosity, going back to your point about curiosity, and I'm

[00:36:11] thinking about experimentation as, as well, and how an open, an open, openness and, and the

[00:36:23] idea that, uh, you know, sometimes I'm, I'm, I'm too impatient.

[00:36:28] And it's like, I often, I have to, if I'm talking to somebody about business, I say, well, there's,

[00:36:39] there's only, there's, there's only, there's a very simple, everybody's looking for the silver

[00:36:45] bullet, right?

[00:36:46] So we're looking for the silver bullet in business.

[00:36:49] We're looking for the silver bullet in thriving, right?

[00:36:52] We're looking for the silver bullet in healing.

[00:36:55] Yeah.

[00:36:56] What is it?

[00:36:57] Well, if I, if I actually reduce it, if I, if I'm talking to me about business, I say,

[00:37:01] well, it's about really, um, doing something, seeing if it works, if it does do more of that,

[00:37:13] if it doesn't do less and then repeat and keep going.

[00:37:18] Yeah.

[00:37:18] Now you, but the, the, the challenge with that is you can't sell a 20,000 year, 20,000 pound

[00:37:25] a year coaching program on the basis of three sentences.

[00:37:29] Can you, you can't, you can't sell a book.

[00:37:32] You can't, you can't sell a 20 pound book.

[00:37:34] You can't send a 20 pound ebook.

[00:37:37] That's got three sentences and try it.

[00:37:40] See if it works.

[00:37:41] If it does do more and it's more than three sentences, isn't it?

[00:37:44] But that I'm thinking about, uh, uh, how, how curious and how experimental we are along

[00:37:52] our healing, thriving journey.

[00:37:58] Um, um, wondering what, what that brings up for you in terms of experimental.

[00:38:05] You know, it reminds me of how easy it is to get stuck someplace.

[00:38:12] Um, I often think, um, in your idea about a book with those few lines in it, um, often

[00:38:20] where people.

[00:38:23] Stop is the part of like, well, just try it.

[00:38:27] Um, and they're like, ah, I can't, it's too much work or I'm not that kind of person.

[00:38:32] I don't like the sound of that.

[00:38:33] I tried something similar and it didn't work five years ago.

[00:38:37] So I'm never going to try it again.

[00:38:38] Right.

[00:38:38] So, um, so often it is that first step of like, what, what is one thing you can do closer

[00:38:46] to that?

[00:38:47] Um, and then, uh, and certainly I think making it a routine becomes, becomes harder, but,

[00:38:53] but this idea that people can get stuck, uh, in a place and not, and whether it's out

[00:39:03] of, uh, anxiety or, um, or in a lack of energy, a feeling of, of, um, hopelessness, um, to make

[00:39:17] that move to just give something a try.

[00:39:21] Yeah.

[00:39:23] And I'm also thinking about the opposite about persistence.

[00:39:29] Right.

[00:39:30] I'm not thinking about, um, I'm again, I'm thinking about physical health.

[00:39:38] And so I plateaued my, my weight's plateaued and it's plateaued for last 10 years.

[00:39:49] Mm-hmm .

[00:39:50] And, and I don't actually weigh myself, but I'm, I know I've been in the same genes,

[00:39:55] right?

[00:39:55] In the same size genes for, for, for, for 10 years now.

[00:40:00] Um, and my wife tells me, well, you're going to have to do something different.

[00:40:05] And, and yet I, I, if I, I, I don't, um, why, why don't I?

[00:40:13] Well, because it's not a big enough, it's not a big enough deal for me.

[00:40:19] Um, but I'm also thinking about persistence and how much of a try we give stuff.

[00:40:30] Mm-hmm .

[00:40:31] And I'm thinking about the, I'm thinking about the podcast and my, my, my work.

[00:40:40] Well, I've, I've kind of stuck at it.

[00:40:45] I was thinking about Colonel Sanders and didn't five.

[00:40:48] No, I'm thinking about JK Rowling's, you know, the, um, Harry Potter.

[00:40:53] Yeah.

[00:40:53] She got how many times?

[00:40:54] Yeah.

[00:40:55] Colonel Sanders got rejected by 500 different chicken shacks before the guy that, that,

[00:41:03] that, the 500th chicken shack guy bought Colonel Sanders sauce from his grandma's recipe or whatever

[00:41:12] it was.

[00:41:12] Right.

[00:41:13] And, and, and JK Rowling's got rejected by, I don't know, a thousand, thousand publishers

[00:41:20] and, and, uh, and, and persistence and sticking, sticking at stuff.

[00:41:28] Mm-hmm .

[00:41:29] Um, yeah, it's sort of, um, it makes me think about where you started it by, uh, by talking

[00:41:36] about the rollercoaster rate and accepting, accepting the ups and downs, uh, accepting your

[00:41:42] feeling when, you know, uh, all of the feelings that you might have.

[00:41:46] Um, I would, and, and how important that is if you're gonna keep at something, even, you

[00:41:53] know, whether it's a, it's a professional goal, like those examples you had or, um, or

[00:41:59] more about, you know, a journey of, uh, self-discovery of healing of, um, feeling, uh, satisfied in your

[00:42:09] own environment.

[00:42:10] Yeah.

[00:42:18] I'm stumped for a question.

[00:42:21] I'm just feeling the, just feeling the peace.

[00:42:24] Yeah.

[00:42:25] Um, I know what I was gonna say.

[00:42:29] Uh, whole, right.

[00:42:33] You, you, you talked about, except, did you say accepting the whole of our feelings?

[00:42:41] Mm-hmm .

[00:42:42] You know, I, I think we can look at whole in a, in, you know, what, what does healing mean?

[00:42:53] You know, healing for me, well, nevermind about me.

[00:43:00] You're the guest.

[00:43:00] I should ask you, what does healing mean?

[00:43:02] What should, what does healing mean to you?

[00:43:04] Ooh.

[00:43:07] Um, I like the, um, this definition of healing that I had, had heard in, in learning a model

[00:43:21] of therapy, but the idea was, you know, you take a look at your, the wall next to you and

[00:43:28] right now your trauma or your challenge is the whole wall.

[00:43:35] Um, it just, it, it, it covers it.

[00:43:37] And when there is healing your, that experience will become just a little pinpoint on the whole

[00:43:49] wall, um, that, that it will allow for the rest of your experience and your life to take over.

[00:43:58] Um, and, and so I think I like that idea of healing that this thing that once consumed your whole state, um, is now in a place where it's not, it's not gone.

[00:44:13] Right.

[00:44:14] Um, but you can, you can not have it, um, be everything about you that you have all these other beautiful pieces of yourself that, that shine through.

[00:44:28] Yeah.

[00:44:32] Um, it does consumers, trauma can consume it.

[00:44:36] Yeah.

[00:44:37] Uh, did I, did I say this to you?

[00:44:40] I've said it to somebody this afternoon, uh, with, we think we could drown in our tears.

[00:44:44] Yes.

[00:44:45] Yeah.

[00:44:46] I don't know where I heard that from.

[00:44:48] I'm sure.

[00:44:49] Yeah.

[00:44:49] I was really, well, in English was, were, were my worst subjects at school.

[00:44:59] So in, in the UK you do, you do a, um, English language, you do it.

[00:45:04] Everybody does exams.

[00:45:06] That's when they're 16.

[00:45:07] Right.

[00:45:08] Uh, and my, you do English language, like an essays and that sort of stuff and English literature about, about Thomas Hardy or whatever it is Shakespeare.

[00:45:21] And my Englishes were the, my worst subject.

[00:45:24] I just, they were down in a way.

[00:45:26] So it's a bit, bit weird really.

[00:45:28] But, um, so when I think, when I say something like drowning in our tears, I'm thinking, where did I get that from?

[00:45:33] Cause I don't think I would have created that myself.

[00:45:36] Um, this, I thought you were going to say it's, instead of the brick wall being a wall, it's just one brick.

[00:45:48] Um, I was also, I would, you said accepting all of our feelings.

[00:45:57] Um, no, you said, you said accepting the whole of our feeling.

[00:46:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:05] Mm-hmm.

[00:46:06] And I, I think that that too is a, a, a beautiful, uh, uh, counter, counter cultural counter narrative feeling.

[00:46:21] I think, so most people think that healing is feeling less bad.

[00:46:27] Right.

[00:46:28] Yeah.

[00:46:28] Only the good feelings, right?

[00:46:30] Yeah.

[00:46:30] That's not quite true.

[00:46:32] Um, and, uh, an old mentor of mine called Michael Neal talks about emotophobia, right?

[00:46:42] I, I, I only want, I've, I've, I've, uh, I've become phobic of bad, bad emotions and, and accepting the whole of our emotions feels like a counter narrative, counter cultural and, and really great way of looking at healing.

[00:47:10] Yeah.

[00:47:11] Because it's not, it, it fits with, um, it fits with, uh, the, the Ditchworth book title, isn't it?

[00:47:20] No, no bad parts.

[00:47:22] Mm.

[00:47:23] No bad parts.

[00:47:25] What he's really talking about is the feelings of the parts.

[00:47:30] Right.

[00:47:31] Um, I shouldn't be feeling this way.

[00:47:34] Yeah.

[00:47:35] Yeah.

[00:47:35] No, no, no bad parts.

[00:47:37] No part of me is bad.

[00:47:41] And no feeling within any part of me is bad.

[00:47:46] Mm-hmm.

[00:47:47] And another way of saying that is what you said about accepting the whole of our emotions.

[00:47:54] So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's about feeling, not feeling bad about feeling bad.

[00:48:03] That's right.

[00:48:04] Or, or, or, or not worrying about worrying.

[00:48:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:48:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:48:14] Yeah.

[00:48:15] I've run out of steam.

[00:48:17] I've run a bit of a rant there.

[00:48:19] Um, yeah.

[00:48:24] I mean, I see that as pretty counter cultural.

[00:48:28] Uh, how would, do you think I'm on, I think I'm barking up the wrong tree down?

[00:48:34] No, I think, um, I would say, I do think culturally we see this desire to protect people from negative feelings.

[00:48:51] Um, and to, to really only be searching for, um, you know, even, we'll often hear people say, parents certainly say this all the time.

[00:49:02] Um, I just want my kid to be happy.

[00:49:05] And I always think, man, that's not really what you want to want, right?

[00:49:12] Like what you want is for your kid to be able to express whatever it is they're feeling, or you want them to, um, you know, go forward and make the choices they want to make.

[00:49:25] I think that, uh, putting pressure on someone to always be happy is, is not attainable.

[00:49:32] Um, and we shouldn't want that for any of us.

[00:49:36] Uh, that is emotophobia.

[00:49:38] That is emotophobia.

[00:49:40] Yeah.

[00:49:40] Um, so I think it's in those ways that we're often sending messages, particularly to young people that, um, you know, that if you're not happy, there's something wrong with you.

[00:49:53] Yeah.

[00:49:54] What, what about, um, the confusion between I, uh, who we are and how we feel, right?

[00:50:02] So the difference between I feel sad and I am sad or I am sad.

[00:50:11] There's a, there's a word missing between the am and the sad and the word is feeling.

[00:50:15] I am feeling sad.

[00:50:16] So we get very, uh, identified with our feelings.

[00:50:21] We get very identified with our trauma.

[00:50:27] You know, we, you could say, well, trauma is, uh, what does the issues in the tissue?

[00:50:36] Is that a vessel bandicoot one?

[00:50:37] You can say, well, it's in the body.

[00:50:38] Uh, yes, clearly.

[00:50:41] Yeah.

[00:50:41] You can.

[00:50:42] And you can also say, but it, it, it's, it's in.

[00:50:47] It's a more of a, it's a, it's more of a feeling thing than a thinking thing.

[00:50:51] Is it trauma?

[00:50:51] I, I, I'm feeling scared.

[00:50:53] I'm feeling angry.

[00:50:54] Sure.

[00:50:55] It's more about, I'm feeling angry than it is.

[00:50:57] Um, I'm feeling, I'm thinking angry thoughts.

[00:51:01] It's more about emotions.

[00:51:03] Um, what, what do you make of this distinction that, uh, that I'm talking about between who

[00:51:09] we are and how we feel?

[00:51:10] Cause it seems a big deal to me, but.

[00:51:12] Yeah.

[00:51:13] Well, I think that people are capable of a whole spectrum of emotions.

[00:51:20] Um, so I think if we only allow identification of, of one small piece of that, you're really,

[00:51:28] you're missing out on, um, on everything else that's there.

[00:51:31] Um, so, uh, you know, again, I just, uh, often I'm in sessions talking to people about,

[00:51:40] uh, you know, when, uh, when we're talking about cognitions that they come in with, right.

[00:51:44] This, you know, what ideas like, and it, uh, is it true?

[00:51:48] And is it helpful are often things that we'll, we'll sort of look at, right.

[00:51:52] It's so if you have this belief that you are a sad person, um, is it true, right?

[00:51:58] Is there evidence that that is the only emotion you've ever experienced in your whole life?

[00:52:03] Uh, and is it helpful to identify that way?

[00:52:07] And, and often the answer is no, no, it's not.

[00:52:17] Do you go near that, um, I, I don't, yeah.

[00:52:22] Do you go near that identity piece?

[00:52:24] The, you know, what's aware of the, do you get, you know, what's aware of the feeling?

[00:52:30] Do you?

[00:52:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:52:33] Sure.

[00:52:34] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:52:35] Right.

[00:52:36] Why, um, what is it about that person's experience that they may identify that way?

[00:52:43] Right.

[00:52:44] What is, what's the, uh, story they tell themselves about who they are that makes that so?

[00:52:49] Um, uh, and I think hopefully, right.

[00:52:55] People can get to the place where, um, where it's not all or nothing, right?

[00:53:02] You can't be one emotion all the time.

[00:53:08] You can't be one, uh, presented one way all the time, right?

[00:53:13] We, we, there is diversity there.

[00:53:15] We have, uh, for better or worse, right?

[00:53:19] We, we, we, uh, we show up in different ways.

[00:53:21] Yeah.

[00:53:24] I came up with something yesterday that I'd forgotten, but that I came up with like years

[00:53:29] ago.

[00:53:30] Um, and the person that I was talking to didn't take the bait now, you know, didn't, didn't

[00:53:39] go with it.

[00:53:40] Uh, I've got a feeling that you, you, you might, or you'll just tell it like you're off your

[00:53:48] rocker song.

[00:53:49] Um, so the, the idea is that a fixed event cannot be the cause of a variable experience.

[00:54:05] Say more about that.

[00:54:07] Okay.

[00:54:08] I can see you ask questions for a living, but don't people, don't many people come to therapy

[00:54:14] thinking that you're going to give them the answers?

[00:54:16] Yes.

[00:54:17] Yes.

[00:54:17] That's, I think one of the, the disappointments most all people have is that you don't get

[00:54:23] advice.

[00:54:24] Okay.

[00:54:25] Um, so, uh, so the, you talked about, uh, somebody says that they're a sad person, um, and your

[00:54:34] question was something like, uh, have you experienced other emotions?

[00:54:40] I think it was kind of the question, right?

[00:54:43] Yeah.

[00:54:43] So, um, what I'm talking about here, well, back to the, it's back to the rollercoaster.

[00:54:50] Okay.

[00:54:51] So back to the rollercoaster.

[00:54:52] Um, my feelings have been up and down.

[00:54:59] I'm going to summarize that in one adjective and the adjective is variable.

[00:55:07] Mm-hmm .

[00:55:08] Mm-hmm .

[00:55:09] So my feelings have been up and down.

[00:55:12] My feelings have varied.

[00:55:14] My experience of life has been variable, but there's a fixed event that happened.

[00:55:27] So coming up 58 years ago, I was adopted fixed event, variable experience.

[00:55:36] Mm-hmm .

[00:55:37] Mm-hmm .

[00:55:38] A fixed event.

[00:55:39] How can a fixed event, a fixed event cause a variable experience?

[00:55:50] Well, I guess I could answer that a million ways.

[00:55:53] I see what you're saying, right?

[00:55:55] That, um, that there, there's more, right?

[00:55:59] We are, we are more complex creatures than, uh, than to be defined by just one thing that

[00:56:07] happened in a whole, uh, we don't live in a vacuum, right?

[00:56:11] We don't just have one experience and never have another experience ever again in our lives.

[00:56:17] Um, yeah.

[00:56:18] Yeah.

[00:56:19] Yeah.

[00:56:20] Yeah.

[00:56:20] So I, I would say I'm, I'm, I'm feeling my thinking, not my adoption.

[00:56:28] Mm-hmm .

[00:56:29] Mm-hmm .

[00:56:33] Yeah.

[00:56:33] I, I guess I would add the layer to that, that we don't, you know, there's no human that

[00:56:41] lives, um, outside of being a social creature and relationships, right?

[00:56:51] And so, um, there is one piece that yes, the, there were fixed events.

[00:56:58] There was relinquishment, there was legal adoption.

[00:57:01] And then there was the life, the relationships that happened, uh, in response to those things,

[00:57:11] uh, because of those things.

[00:57:14] And, and that continued to inform your rollercoaster to present day.

[00:57:25] I, I, I, I'm going to, it's popped into my head.

[00:57:27] So I've got to share it now after, um, dissing my, uh, English skills.

[00:57:34] Uh, as you were saying that last, um, that last piece, I, I was thinking of a saying from

[00:57:42] a poet called John Dunn, no man is an island.

[00:57:46] Mm-hmm .

[00:57:46] Mm-hmm .

[00:57:47] But obviously I'd be no person is an island in today's field.

[00:57:51] Yes.

[00:57:51] Um, here's one last question, one last question for you, because I'm conscious I'm taking

[00:58:02] a lot of your time up here.

[00:58:03] Yeah.

[00:58:04] Um, to, to what extent do you think that the, the way we are raised as adoptees in, in forms

[00:58:27] it, there's, there's two things, right?

[00:58:29] There's the, there's the relinquishment trauma and then there's the, the, then there's the

[00:58:34] felt, felt sense of belonging in the, in the, in the, um, in the, in the, in the family

[00:58:40] home and, uh, and how attuned our parents are to that stuff.

[00:58:49] My theory is that that is actually the bigger part of the thing.

[00:58:57] The, the, the, the raising is a bigger deal than the relinquishment.

[00:59:04] It's a bigger factor in, in, in the whole.

[00:59:08] Well, I am going to sidestep that and let people have their own opinions about that.

[00:59:13] Ah, but, but.

[00:59:14] I like the way you did that.

[00:59:16] Yeah.

[00:59:16] Anytime.

[00:59:18] Um, but do I think, again, when we talk about the relationships of the people closest to

[00:59:25] us that, that form, you know, a lot of our early, early experiences, it's, uh, it's of

[00:59:34] the most importance about what, what is going on there, what was going on for those people,

[00:59:41] how they understood themselves, um, and how they understood being parents to a child who

[00:59:48] had a very unique start to life.

[00:59:51] Um, and I think hopefully, right.

[00:59:54] They took, uh, they took that very seriously and attunement, which you mentioned, um, is just

[01:00:03] essential, right?

[01:00:04] The idea that they're really looking at you, the child and, and, um, and being curious about

[01:00:11] what you need and what's going on for you and responding not about their own experience,

[01:00:17] but, um, but really in the experience they want to foster in the child is essential.

[01:00:26] I like the way you did that.

[01:00:27] Yeah.

[01:00:28] Yeah.

[01:00:28] Is there anything that you'd like to share that I've not asked you about?

[01:00:33] No, this has been a lovely conversation.

[01:00:36] Thank you so much for having me.

[01:00:38] Yeah.

[01:00:38] I've, I've loved it too.

[01:00:40] Yeah.

[01:00:41] I hope you've loved listening to it listeners.

[01:00:43] Well, you have, cause you've got this far, right?

[01:00:45] So if it, you would have, you, if you thought it was rubbish, you would have switched off

[01:00:51] and listen to something else by now.

[01:00:52] That's right.

[01:00:53] Um, uh, thank you.

[01:00:55] Thank you listeners.

[01:00:56] And, um, if you're listening kind of round this time, uh, we're doing this on the twelfth

[01:01:03] of December, um, happy, happy holidays as they say, uh, in the States.

[01:01:07] So happy, Merry Christmas as we say.

[01:01:10] Thanks listeners.

[01:01:11] And thank you, Christine.

[01:01:12] Thank you so much.