Authentic With Anna Jinja

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Anna, Anna Jinja. Looking forward to our conversation today, Anna.

[00:00:11] Yeah, I'm so looking forward to it. It's been a while since we last chatted, so I was like, yes, I get to talk to Simon today.

[00:00:17] Yeah, me too. I feel the same way. And, you know, it's lovely to, always lovely to speak to fellow adoptees and fellow adoptee podcast hosts.

[00:00:27] And that takes it to a different level. And thank you very much for having me on your podcast. I really enjoyed that conversation.

[00:00:38] So here on Thriving Adoptees, we'd like to ask, what does thriving mean to you?

[00:00:48] What comes to mind when you hear the name of the podcast, Thriving Adoptees?

[00:00:54] Well, what I love about it is that, and we had talked about this before, is that for most of my life, I have not wanted to talk about my adoption story.

[00:01:02] So it wasn't until I was 47 that I really embraced talking about my adoption story because of the podcast.

[00:01:08] Before, when anyone asked me about it, I would try to find all sorts of strategies and ways to not talk about being an adoptee.

[00:01:16] I wanted to, my name is Anna Ginger. Ginger is the name that the adoption agency gave me, but I would never speak it.

[00:01:23] If I could avoid it, I would not say it. And so with this podcast, which is the Anna Ginger Show, I'm forced to say my name every week.

[00:01:31] And so when I think about Thriving Adoptees, I think of all the ways that I really spread hate about myself, about being an adoptee and turning my back on what it meant to be an adoptee.

[00:01:44] And as I enter into my 50s, I don't want to tell many people that, but as I turn into the, you know, I just turned 50 a couple years ago this month, turned 52.

[00:01:55] I think this decade is a great one for me to thrive, to be thriving.

[00:01:59] And that means for me, embracing my adoption story and learning.

[00:02:04] And Simon, I've learned so much from your podcast and from our conversations where I didn't even know what questions to ask or what things and what issues are connected to being an adoptee, that adoptee trauma and about why adoptees are mobilizing to be able to advocate for our population.

[00:02:22] I didn't know that. And so the thriving piece is really the learning and accepting of my own story and not turning my back to who I am.

[00:02:32] Ronnie. Wow. So what was it? And what was it that kept you holding back?

[00:02:42] Why was it that you didn't want to talk about this stuff until you hit 47?

[00:02:47] Well, I think it's because, I mean, I grew up in Iowa. I was adopted from Korea. My adopted family are Norwegian, so there was no question that I was adopted.

[00:02:56] I'd have to be a complete moron to not know that I was adopted. You look at the family pictures and you're like, which one doesn't look like the other? It's Anna.

[00:03:04] And I think when you're a young person and you're growing up in the Midwest and you're the only person that looks like you, you try to find strategies to be able to belong.

[00:03:13] And so the way that I did that is that one of my parents would, you know, try to teach me about my Korean culture and what did it mean to be a Korean adoptee.

[00:03:23] The whole agency, the international adoption agency that was adopted, hosted these picnics and information sessions for my parents and invited me to be part of.

[00:03:32] And I would never, ever go. I just would. I want to think of all the ways that I thought meant being an American and being a normal kid.

[00:03:42] And that meant not acknowledging that I was adopted from Korea and that I was different.

[00:03:48] And, you know, I tell a story about like the summer of 13, which is a very awkward age.

[00:03:54] I wore sunglasses inside and outside because I thought it would conceal my identity.

[00:04:00] I think people would think, oh, she's not an Asian because they can't see my eyes.

[00:04:05] And when I think back about that 13 year old kid doing that to herself, how terrible, what a terrible thing to hate yourself that much that you would go that far to.

[00:04:17] Well, first of all, I look like a dork. I mean, I would be walking around thinking and my mom thought, well, she's trying to be like a movie star kind of thing.

[00:04:24] And it really wasn't from that place. It really was a place of self-hatred.

[00:04:34] Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's hard. It's so shit, isn't it?

[00:04:39] Yes. It's as you guys say, shite is utter shite.

[00:04:46] Yeah, I normally try and say SH1T to be polite, but I didn't really feel that I didn't really feel politeness was the right score when you're when you're sharing that.

[00:05:00] That story. We talk a lot about stuffing feelings on this show.

[00:05:13] That's Pamela Caranova. Have you come across Pamela Caranova?

[00:05:20] You know, she talks about, you know, like the booze as her ultimate stuffing strategy.

[00:05:29] Right. And because we feel that our emotions are so huge, they're going to overwhelm us.

[00:05:41] And therefore we stuff with booze or whatever we we we stuff with to avoid the avoid the feelings.

[00:05:52] And and it sounds like that was kind of you, but it was it was deeper than your feelings that you were stuffing.

[00:06:00] You were trying to stuff your identity.

[00:06:03] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:04] Is that what it was?

[00:06:05] Yeah, I was trying to conceal that.

[00:06:07] And then when I remember the first time that someone screamed at me that, you know, that I was they were driving in a car and screamed at me, look, you stupid chink.

[00:06:16] And I remember, like, I didn't even know what that was at that time.

[00:06:19] You know, I was think I was 10 or 11.

[00:06:22] But I knew it was something that was not nice.

[00:06:24] And then when it was explained to me what it was, it was another way of like that I have to be a cause for me to be fearful in my world.

[00:06:34] And that if someone's screaming at that at me like that from a car, they're doing it from a place of of hate and a potential way of wanting to do harm to me.

[00:06:45] And so I had all that going on, you know, growing up in Iowa, my grandparents in North Dakota.

[00:06:53] And also just trying to like what is like the ideal standard of beauty for me?

[00:06:57] It was at the time Madonna, Cyndi Lauper, all those.

[00:07:01] And I did not look like that.

[00:07:02] There wasn't anyone that looked like me that was like that I could say, oh, that's cool.

[00:07:07] And people would say, you look like you're this or that.

[00:07:10] And I'd be like, I'm not even that.

[00:07:12] So whatever.

[00:07:13] And so when I think when we say I'm not this, if someone has said to me, Anna, you look like Cyndi, you know, Cyndi Lauper.

[00:07:22] I'd be like, oh, that's great.

[00:07:23] If someone said to me, you look like Milan.

[00:07:25] I'm like, I don't even look like Milan.

[00:07:27] I'm not a cartoon character.

[00:07:28] There's such hostility that goes to what I'm not and what I am.

[00:07:33] And that's when you talk about thriving.

[00:07:36] I really hope that as I step into this decade that I say, I am Anna.

[00:07:41] I am adopted from Seoul, Korea.

[00:07:42] I don't know the beginning of my origin story.

[00:07:45] I know what was told to me.

[00:07:46] And as I'm doing this podcast and listening to podcasts like yours and reading more and more information and books about what it means to be an adoptee, that I'm able to ask myself those questions and step into who I'm meant to be in this world and who I am.

[00:08:02] I didn't get to choose what I look like, where I was born.

[00:08:05] If I did, I look like, you know, I don't know, a supermodel or something, but I'm short and I'm Asian.

[00:08:14] Yeah.

[00:08:16] Yeah.

[00:08:18] So what changed then about, was it 47 you said?

[00:08:24] Yes.

[00:08:25] So what was it that changed?

[00:08:26] You've kind of, you've denied it.

[00:08:29] You've stuffed it.

[00:08:30] You've had all that emotional shite, right?

[00:08:34] You've had all that identity shite and then something happened for you and something changed.

[00:08:41] So what was that?

[00:08:44] Well, I was living in England with my significant other at the time.

[00:08:48] We broke up and I had to go, I had to figure out what was I going to do.

[00:08:52] So I went back to my home state to Iowa.

[00:08:54] I said I would never go back to Iowa.

[00:08:57] And I think that at some level I knew I had to go back to where I grew up to figure out why, why is it that there's these things that are happening in my life, these decisions that I've made?

[00:09:09] Why?

[00:09:09] And I knew I had to go home to figure out and answer those questions.

[00:09:13] And when I, you know, this was right before COVID.

[00:09:15] I had another opportunity to be part of a community radio station.

[00:09:20] They needed volunteers to come on because of COVID.

[00:09:24] And I must have said on air that, you know, I'm adopted.

[00:09:28] I came back to my home state from the whole agency.

[00:09:32] And from that, more and more adoptee stories started to come to me.

[00:09:36] My show was not about adoptees at that time.

[00:09:39] It was about connection through COVID.

[00:09:42] But as more and more stories came to me and people were telling me their story of like I was abandoned in a box in the path of a social worker.

[00:09:50] And that's the story that I was told.

[00:09:52] And so as you hear more of those things and the truth starts to be revealed to who you are through other people's stories, it forced me to ask those questions about myself.

[00:10:01] And because I was going through a heartbreak and trying to figure out my life, I really was forced to ask those questions.

[00:10:09] And then when I started doing more and more shows with inviting adoptees to come on and I was asking them questions, really, I was asking myself those questions.

[00:10:19] Like, so how does it feel to be different?

[00:10:21] How does it feel when someone, you know, there's a, I wrote a novel when I was in Iowa and I used, my mom says, my adoptive mom says, you used your lived experience, your lived adoption experience and fictionalized it.

[00:10:34] And that's how I processed my, you know, my trauma, my adoptive trauma and some other things through this fictionalized version of my story.

[00:10:44] And I think it's because I was afraid to ask those questions like we were talking about.

[00:10:50] And I, there's a scene in the story about a woman who has two adopted children and two biological children.

[00:10:56] And the woman says, I actually feel different towards my biological children, that mama bear protective kind of thing towards my biological children.

[00:11:07] I don't feel that way about my adopted children.

[00:11:09] And sometimes I hate them.

[00:11:11] And it was the first time that I had ever heard anyone express that.

[00:11:15] And she was in a moment of frustration, but she felt like she could comply that to me, maybe forgetting that I was an adoptee.

[00:11:21] But I'd never heard that before.

[00:11:23] And that truth, her truth, oh my gosh, it was like it hit me in the gut kind of thing.

[00:11:28] And it made me ask those questions.

[00:11:30] Am I wanted?

[00:11:31] Am I loved?

[00:11:32] Do I belong?

[00:11:33] And are these, all these people saying to me, you were loved so much that you were abandoned and that's why your birth mother gave you up.

[00:11:40] Is that the truth?

[00:11:42] You know, when my adopted parents, you know, say, I love you just as the same as I do my other biological children.

[00:11:48] Is that the truth?

[00:11:49] And when you operate where you don't know what the truth is, then there comes a time where you're going to have to ask yourself those questions and process it with either a therapist or other adoptees or groups or someplace where you can ask those questions without being afraid of people judging you or saying, of course, you should be grateful that you were like adopted by this amazing family.

[00:12:12] You could have been abandoned and ended up a hooker on the streets of Seoul, Korea.

[00:12:16] And so when people tell you those things, it makes you feel ashamed of like how you feel about yourself.

[00:12:22] And that's that thriving piece is like, I don't want that anymore.

[00:12:25] I don't want to feel ashamed anymore.

[00:12:27] I want to own my truth and I want to be able to ask those questions with courage.

[00:12:33] Yeah.

[00:12:36] So how?

[00:12:37] Yeah, how?

[00:12:38] Wow.

[00:12:39] And I think it's true, like you were saying, when you hosted that first workshop session in the summer about how adoptees can advocate for themselves.

[00:12:50] I wanted to get on that and hear.

[00:12:52] And I had never heard a group in those panelists that you had put together.

[00:12:58] That passion and those information, I was like, wow, that is a lot of information, but really good information for me to ask myself.

[00:13:06] Like, so are you being really honest when you say that doesn't hurt me?

[00:13:10] That doesn't bother me.

[00:13:11] And in fact, it does.

[00:13:13] And there are ways to be able to advocate for yourself that I didn't know.

[00:13:17] And I want to share that with others.

[00:13:18] I do it a little different than maybe some others, because as we talked about, the way that I do my show are these creative collisions where the people come on, they tell their stories, I match them to musician or poet.

[00:13:30] Because for me, I believe I want people to like take a step and listen to someone's story in a new way and say, I have nothing in common with this adoptee.

[00:13:40] I don't, I'm not connected to adoption.

[00:13:41] But the fact is, you should be, because there's always like someone that's connected in your family and your neighborhood or community and ask those questions and learn.

[00:13:52] Yeah.

[00:13:53] So what does identity mean to you then?

[00:13:57] Yeah, that's a very good question, Simon.

[00:14:00] And for me, identity is like figuring out all the pieces that who I am.

[00:14:04] So like when I think about the things I don't get to choose, the way that I physically look.

[00:14:10] But there are things that I get to choose as far as like what makes who I am, those circles of like what makes Anna.

[00:14:16] I'm Asian.

[00:14:18] I grew up, I was born in Seoul, Korea, as far as I know.

[00:14:21] I was born or I mean, I was raised in the Midwest in Iowa.

[00:14:25] I like, I like carrots.

[00:14:28] I like, I do not like kimchi.

[00:14:31] I'm just, I'm just being honest.

[00:14:34] I used to think maybe I don't like kimchi because I'm just trying to reject everything that's being an adoptee in Korean.

[00:14:41] But let me tell you, I really do hate it.

[00:14:43] I'm sorry.

[00:14:43] I can't, I can't like it.

[00:14:45] But all those things about identity are like, what are the authentic things that make me, me?

[00:14:50] And owning it.

[00:14:52] And sometimes I'll change my mind.

[00:14:53] But the core piece of who I am is there.

[00:14:56] Yeah.

[00:14:59] I, I, before we hit record, I was talking about chairing a panel last week at a conference about adoption.

[00:15:10] And there was a transracial adoptee on that.

[00:15:13] And he happened to be black rather than black rather than Asian.

[00:15:19] But I have actually interviewed somebody here in the UK who is, was born in Hong Kong, but raised in the UK.

[00:15:27] And they talked about a, a flexibility and, and the fact that they got to choose what they, what they got to choose, what adoption meant to them.

[00:15:49] So the, the, the, the woman from, from Hong Kong, I'm sorry, I can't remember her name.

[00:15:56] It's a long time.

[00:15:57] It's a lot of episodes ago.

[00:16:00] She said that I, I get to pick like a, we have this thing called pick and mix in, in, in kids.

[00:16:08] Yeah.

[00:16:09] You have that?

[00:16:09] Yeah.

[00:16:10] You've got what you call candy, right?

[00:16:13] Yes.

[00:16:13] Sweets.

[00:16:14] Yeah.

[00:16:14] You know, I used to work in a sweet shop and, and you've, you know, like there's this,

[00:16:19] this table, you know, there's this, yeah, yeah.

[00:16:22] There's this compartments with, and you can pick and mix.

[00:16:25] You can pick the, pick the sweets that you want.

[00:16:28] Right.

[00:16:28] So pick and mix and decide what's important to you about, about you.

[00:16:35] And so it's a, it's a free choice.

[00:16:37] And she said that she could choose to pick the, the bits that she thought her Asian heritage helped her with.

[00:16:47] And then she could pick the bits that she felt her white surroundings had helped her with.

[00:16:56] So it was kind of down to her.

[00:16:58] And it was the ultimate in terms of an empowered view of her own identity.

[00:17:05] And I think that's true.

[00:17:07] I think that, you know, one of the books that helped me, it was a book called The Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin.

[00:17:14] And one of the sections she talked about how, what, deciding what does she really like.

[00:17:19] So I think it was opera music that she said, you know, I actually don't like opera music.

[00:17:23] I know that I feel like I should like opera music, but I don't.

[00:17:27] And I think all those questions about what I should be versus what I am and making sure that when I step into that is all as a path of the, the path to thriving is authenticity.

[00:17:38] It is like figuring out who we are meant to be in this world and who we are and embracing that and being able to say, you know, with pride, I love myself.

[00:17:49] Instead of wearing sunglasses and trying to hide who I am and hating myself, that I emphasize and figure out, well, what are the ways that I can emphasize the features that I am?

[00:18:00] And be proud of that and not ashamed or scared to be something that I'm not.

[00:18:05] Now, I think that there are some people and there's some situations where I would love to, I just saw Wicked.

[00:18:11] I would love to look like Ariana Grande.

[00:18:13] I would love to sing like her.

[00:18:14] I think she's amazing.

[00:18:16] I don't look like her.

[00:18:17] And if you listen to me sing, the dogs will be screaming and howling because I'm terrible.

[00:18:22] And so that's part of life, too, is just accepting there's just certain things that are never going to be possible for me.

[00:18:29] I am never going to get on stage and sing and have thousands of people pay to do it.

[00:18:35] Now, they'll pay me to stop.

[00:18:36] I mean, that might be the new gig.

[00:18:38] Oh, yeah.

[00:18:40] Stop singing.

[00:18:41] We'll give you 500 bucks.

[00:18:43] But it's not ever going to be to cheer me on to sing like four more songs.

[00:18:47] No, no.

[00:18:49] My wife's uncle actually did that once.

[00:18:53] I love that.

[00:18:55] He was a Scottish guy.

[00:18:58] Unfortunately, he died.

[00:19:00] Sorry.

[00:19:01] Two years ago, I think it was.

[00:19:02] Oh, sorry.

[00:19:03] I don't know.

[00:19:05] It was pretty profound because my wife had actually donated a kidney to him and he didn't last very long after that.

[00:19:15] But, yeah, so it was on the Scottish people don't call New Year's Eve New Year's.

[00:19:22] They call it Hogmanay, right?

[00:19:24] And they were at this Hogmanay bash party.

[00:19:30] And there was, you know, like a folk, I don't know, folk music-y type band something that he didn't like.

[00:19:37] So he went up to them and he gave them money and then said that it was actually to stop playing and put the disco on, right?

[00:19:46] So instead of get rid of the old-fashioned music and put the Ariana Grande on, I guess, or whatever.

[00:19:54] Yeah.

[00:19:54] And I don't know what actually happened.

[00:19:57] So maybe I should have stopped.

[00:19:59] Well, I bet he lived his bullets.

[00:20:00] I love that he had the courage to be able to do that and to sound like somebody that really, like, embraced life.

[00:20:06] Well, yeah.

[00:20:07] But can you think, but what would you have felt like if you'd been the guy that was told?

[00:20:11] Yeah, I would have felt terrible.

[00:20:12] Yeah.

[00:20:13] I don't know.

[00:20:14] Maybe you just laughed it off.

[00:20:15] Yeah.

[00:20:16] So, yeah, I like carrots as well.

[00:20:20] Carrots are my, I think carrots are much under, because they're so common, aren't they?

[00:20:26] Yes.

[00:20:27] They're underrated.

[00:20:28] They're an underrated vegetable, but they've become so ubiquitous.

[00:20:31] They don't get the love that they need.

[00:20:35] But we do.

[00:20:36] Sorry?

[00:20:37] We love them.

[00:20:37] But we do.

[00:20:38] Yes.

[00:20:38] We love them.

[00:20:40] And, but I've never tried kimchi, so I can't go along with that.

[00:20:45] Whether I like it, I can't say whether I like it or not.

[00:20:48] It's, what is it?

[00:20:50] It's rotten cabbage, basically.

[00:20:53] Okay.

[00:20:54] Well, I've had, I'm not really a fan of non-rotten cabbage.

[00:20:59] Yeah.

[00:21:00] Do you know?

[00:21:02] So, yeah.

[00:21:04] There's probably a better description.

[00:21:06] Yeah.

[00:21:06] I've had, have, they do it in Germany?

[00:21:10] They have, they have sauerkraut.

[00:21:12] Sauerkraut.

[00:21:12] It's sauerkraut.

[00:21:13] It's a Korean version of sauerkraut.

[00:21:14] Yes.

[00:21:15] How similar are they?

[00:21:17] I think so.

[00:21:18] I think that the kimchi is definitely more spicy.

[00:21:21] So, it's a spicy version of sauerkraut, I would describe it.

[00:21:25] I have tried sauerkraut living in Germany for a while and just once, never again.

[00:21:31] Yeah.

[00:21:32] Again on that.

[00:21:36] So, was there a specific, you know, you talked about that moment when you had that racism

[00:21:47] when you were a kid.

[00:21:49] You talked about the moments on the radio show.

[00:21:52] So, was there a tipping point?

[00:21:57] Was there a particular moment when this came into focus for you?

[00:22:02] Or was it more of a general thing?

[00:22:05] A gradual thing, should we say?

[00:22:06] I think it was a gradual thing.

[00:22:08] I think that the podcast experience accelerated my thoughts about what does it mean to be an

[00:22:13] adoptee and answering those questions.

[00:22:15] And for me, when I decided to not do the podcast in Iowa anymore because I moved, I got married

[00:22:21] and moved to Athens, Ohio.

[00:22:23] You know, there was parents that called me.

[00:22:26] They had read an article about me in the Iowa magazine about the podcast.

[00:22:30] And they said to me, you know, Anna, our daughter who's 40 years old, just turned 40, adopted from the same agency as you, just disowned us.

[00:22:40] And the reason why she disowned us is because she felt that, did some research, and felt that adoption was actually a human trafficking institution.

[00:22:49] And that it had done a disservice to her to being adopted and that they shouldn't have done it.

[00:22:53] And she was 40, though, and raised as an infant as their child.

[00:22:57] And these parents said to me, you know, I, this is our daughter.

[00:23:03] We watch movies with her.

[00:23:05] We raised her.

[00:23:07] We love her.

[00:23:08] And I hope that you continue to do the show because when we listen, we feel connected to our daughter.

[00:23:13] And when she comes back to us, we'll be able to ask her the questions that she needed to be asked that we didn't even know.

[00:23:19] And so that, that for me, that made me think about my own experience, the inner rage that I had that I didn't know why I was feeling angry and frustrated and rejected.

[00:23:30] All of those things swirling in my heart and mind to be able to think, well, how do we come to a place where a mutual understanding of being able to like figure out there's an abundance of love?

[00:23:41] It's not a finite amount.

[00:23:43] And how do we, how do we expand that and be able to love each other, even when it is really hard and challenging and we don't want to.

[00:23:51] And so that's why I continue to do the podcast is because I want to be able to figure out like, how do we share the grief and the sorrow and have you understand,

[00:24:00] even if it's a little sliver of what it means to feel like you don't belong.

[00:24:06] And that as an adoptee that you, you know, from the very first act, you know, of our lives, that first chapter, we don't, for many of us,

[00:24:15] we don't know why we were abandoned and why we were rejected.

[00:24:18] And when people say that you should be grateful for having a home and food and not acknowledging that I feel abandoned and bad and rejected,

[00:24:29] then you make me feel like I can't acknowledge something that is a really important part of who I am.

[00:24:36] And that does not feel good.

[00:24:38] Yeah.

[00:24:42] Isn't it about them, them not being happy with our lack of happiness?

[00:24:49] Yeah.

[00:24:50] Sometimes it's just like, I'm, you know, I love you enough to say, I'm going to be there for you in your unhappiness.

[00:24:57] You don't have to be happy or be, you know, I had somebody on the show the other day, a young person who said,

[00:25:02] I have to earn my way into this family as an adoptee and prove that I have a place in this family and on my football team and in my school.

[00:25:12] And I said, you don't have to, you don't have to earn your way at all.

[00:25:15] You are here, you belong, you matter, you're loved.

[00:25:19] And if someone feels uncomfortable with that, that's their problem, not yours.

[00:25:24] And so I don't think he's ever heard that before.

[00:25:27] And what I want him to focus on is that you don't have to earn your way in this world.

[00:25:34] Because you're an adoptee, that's absolutely utter shite, as we started to say.

[00:25:39] And when you say something to somebody that I feel hurt, I feel mad about this or that.

[00:25:47] And if the person rejects that, you have to guide them to a place of the way that you love me is you accept all my emotions and range emotions.

[00:25:56] It's not a menu where you get to pick an appetizer and a dessert here.

[00:25:59] You either pick the whole menu or you figure out how to do that because that's, that's the deal.

[00:26:07] Yeah. And for me, the structure means there's a sense of irony that your adopted parents were doing what they thought was the thing, right?

[00:26:21] Trying to take you to culture camps or heritage camps or whatever that was, organized by Hope.

[00:26:26] And that you didn't want to do that.

[00:26:29] So they were, it was, they were trying, but it, whatever, however they positioned it to you, however they explained it to you, it didn't, you didn't want to, you didn't want to do it.

[00:26:47] Yeah, I did it to myself.

[00:26:51] Well, yeah.

[00:26:54] Yeah.

[00:26:55] Well, kind of, kind of.

[00:27:00] I kind of, I feel that I want to go into a bit of a, I don't know what to call it, a teaching moment, but a sharing moment about that.

[00:27:12] And I'm not sure whether that's appropriate or not.

[00:27:14] I'd say go for it.

[00:27:16] Let's do it.

[00:27:17] You sure?

[00:27:17] Have you heard of, we talked about this a fair bit on the show.

[00:27:24] Have you heard of parts work?

[00:27:27] No.

[00:27:28] Have you heard of something called internal family systems?

[00:27:31] Yes, that I have.

[00:27:33] Okay.

[00:27:33] So internal family systems is a type of parts work.

[00:27:38] Okay.

[00:27:39] Okay.

[00:27:41] And if you've heard me talking about something in the past, it might, when I give, when I share the metaphor, it might make sense.

[00:27:48] So have you ever played trivial pursuits?

[00:27:50] Oh, yes.

[00:27:51] Yeah.

[00:27:52] Okay.

[00:27:52] Okay.

[00:27:52] So if you think about, you know, you get that, you get a pie holder.

[00:28:00] You get a pie holder.

[00:28:03] Each person that's playing trivial pursuits gets a pie holder.

[00:28:06] That's a circular thing that takes the six pies.

[00:28:09] Yes.

[00:28:10] And I always want the blue one.

[00:28:11] Yeah.

[00:28:11] You wanted the blue one.

[00:28:12] Okay.

[00:28:13] Good for you.

[00:28:15] No, no, no, no, no gender stereotypes here.

[00:28:19] Right.

[00:28:20] No, that's right.

[00:28:21] That's great.

[00:28:21] Okay.

[00:28:22] Right.

[00:28:22] So IFS to me is, Dick Schwartz talks about the uppercase S self, right?

[00:28:31] And that's the true self.

[00:28:34] Okay.

[00:28:35] That's the pie holder.

[00:28:38] Okay.

[00:28:39] And the parts are the individual pies.

[00:28:45] So the parts are the individual pies.

[00:28:49] And what seemed to me, right?

[00:28:51] So what would seem to me is that the parts were arguing with each other.

[00:28:57] Yeah.

[00:28:58] So one pie was arguing with another pie.

[00:29:04] Yes.

[00:29:04] But that's not who you are.

[00:29:07] But that's not who you are.

[00:29:07] You are the pie holder.

[00:29:09] You are the uppercase S self.

[00:29:15] So I'll give you an example of how, from my own stuff, right?

[00:29:23] So I used to worry and then worry about worrying and tell myself that I shouldn't worry.

[00:29:34] Yeah.

[00:29:35] So that was two different parts of me fighting with each other.

[00:29:41] Neither of, and I used the word self, but none of those parts, those cheeses, the parts, the cheeses, that's not our self.

[00:29:50] Our self is the uppercase S self.

[00:29:53] And within there, all is calm, right?

[00:29:57] So Dick Schwartz talks about the eight Cs of IFS, the eight Cs of the uppercase S self.

[00:30:04] And one of them is calm.

[00:30:07] So the fight that's going on is between our parts.

[00:30:11] But the uppercase S self is always at peace.

[00:30:19] So we fight against our parts.

[00:30:24] So anger and rage, for me, is about not accepting a part of me that I don't like.

[00:30:36] A cheese of, you know, it's one cheese arguing with another cheese.

[00:30:43] Yeah.

[00:30:44] And that's not our self.

[00:30:45] Our self is the uppercase S self, right?

[00:30:48] So that's, for me, that's my focus.

[00:30:52] My focus is not on my parts.

[00:30:55] My focus is not on the cheeses.

[00:30:58] My focus is on the cheese holder because that's my uppercase S self.

[00:31:01] And that's what identity means, my uppercase S self.

[00:31:08] So the uppercase S self has no anger because the anger is in the parts.

[00:31:14] The uppercase S self has no worry because the worry is in the parts.

[00:31:18] The uppercase S self has no fear because the fear is in the parts.

[00:31:22] The uppercase S self has no trauma because the trauma is in the parts.

[00:31:25] so this is about a shift in for me a shift in my focus from my parts to my self well that makes a

[00:31:38] lot of self i it makes a lot of sense and i think that that uh my cheeses have been at war with each

[00:31:45] other for a long time yes yeah so we're gonna kind of like we're waving a white flag but yes you've

[00:31:52] already been doing that right yeah that's what you've been doing this is just a one a different

[00:31:57] way of putting it yeah so we talk about um you know that there's a civil war there's a civil war

[00:32:06] going on inside our head but it's not civil at all right yeah it's the most uncivil war going what

[00:32:15] we're doing here is we're waving the white flag of uh of peace and we're bringing calm and and you

[00:32:23] know that's why the i think what the the genius of uh the ifs stuff uh his it is is that this focus on

[00:32:34] the uppercase our self is one thing right but also the attributes or attributes i don't know how you

[00:32:41] should say of these hc so calm um calm confident uh connected is another one right connected you talked

[00:32:51] about connection i we you you and i touched a deep base of connection every time we talk you you touch

[00:33:03] a deep place of connection with the guests that you have on your podcast we we get to that place of

[00:33:11] connectedness um and we're uh we're aligning so we're aligning to our to love we're allowing to we're

[00:33:22] allowing we're aligning to a shared experience of trauma what we're not doing is we say oh well i'm in a

[00:33:30] domestic adoptee and you're a transracial adoptee and those two are different we're not we're focusing

[00:33:34] on our uh our shared humanity rather than the differences in our story yes i love that very much

[00:33:42] and what you're talking about too is uh dr martin seligman who is the founder and father of positive

[00:33:48] psychology right and looking at what are the things that lead to happiness which you know for him is the

[00:33:54] perma which is the positive emotion engagement relationships meaning and mattering and accomplishment

[00:34:01] and so when you look at those and connected to your upper self your upper ass and the cheeses is

[00:34:09] putting that together of looking at how do we connect how do we create community and how do we advocate

[00:34:15] and make meaning out of the past to a place of peace yeah did martin seligman is he the guy that did the

[00:34:26] emotional intelligence or i'm getting confused uh that's a different guy uh but uh yes uh but but dr

[00:34:34] seligman he talks about this whole thing and i think for you and when i listen to your podcast and again

[00:34:41] through the facilitated workshops and conversations that you are hosting and the work that you're doing

[00:34:47] within an adoptee community all of that is leading to a place of what is happiness and happiness isn't

[00:34:53] just like haha i'm happy giggling eating candy all the time it is finding peace and it's finding

[00:35:01] acceptance it's finding ways to be able to like navigate through this world together yeah and isn't

[00:35:08] it about isn't that all built into the uppercase ourself yeah 100 yes yeah i had never heard of

[00:35:16] that before but i love that very much um and those and these teachable moments that you're sharing

[00:35:21] when we listen to that as an adoptee as a as a listener then you know we're going along our merry

[00:35:28] lives but at the same time we're going through this transformation of being able to be introduced to

[00:35:34] these teachable moments and comments concepts to be able to like figure this out together so i'm not

[00:35:40] so i don't want 13 year old adoptees out there wearing sunglasses and hating themselves i don't want

[00:35:47] that for that guest who said i have to earn my place in this world to feel that everything he does is if if i

[00:35:53] do this i'm good enough screw that no and so i think all this is saying f this we are going to do this in a

[00:36:01] new way but it has to be through conversation connection and community it really does it does

[00:36:08] and i think you know like the one of the one of the differences is um and you know something that

[00:36:15] perhaps occurred for that 40 year old uh transracial adoptee uh when she talked about the child

[00:36:21] trafficking and stuff like that is i think that that that's a that that um the difference between

[00:36:28] domestic well let's put it this way the the difference between adoption in the uk and adoption

[00:36:36] in the us adds more adds more layers of trauma adds more layers of difficulty adds more layer layers of

[00:36:46] challenges because you know simply you know simply put there's far more international adoption in the

[00:36:54] us than there is in the uk and also in the uk the um the the government so on one hand this sounds

[00:37:03] really terrible because the government are actually funding adoption the adopted parents don't fund it

[00:37:11] right um so on one hand you could say well this is states this is state sponsored child trafficking

[00:37:19] i guess that's one way you could could could look at it um and yet the different way the other

[00:37:25] different way of looking at it is you know when i saw a a menu a price list for adoptees and it's

[00:37:33] different prices for different types of adoptee different color different you know physical stuff

[00:37:41] um you know i was almost sick and and and that that that that that uh transparency that transparency on

[00:37:50] and that market the market me the market me what's the word mechanism the market mechanism the fact

[00:37:58] that it's a market that makes it like you know that's another thing for us to be um yeah fight against

[00:38:08] to be really angry to be really angry about and and that it just adds to the shite yes and and certainly

[00:38:20] the complexity and i think that that's a nice black way of putting it yeah yeah well and i think that

[00:38:26] as i learn more even about adoptions in um central and south america and the stories are coming to me

[00:38:33] about how um mothers are basically forced to give up their children because of financial reasons because

[00:38:41] they can't afford to feed the child that they just gave birth to and the siblings that are behind um i

[00:38:47] think that is unacceptable i think i just think that now i also think adoption there is a need there

[00:38:55] are children that actually need homes and so we're fulfilling a need here you need a home you we have a

[00:39:02] home there's a connection um and so i i think it is acknowledging the darkness that comes with some

[00:39:09] of the adoption stories and how we are adopted but also acknowledging that for example the whole family

[00:39:16] i'm learning more and more about the whole family i've just received three books about the whole

[00:39:21] international adoption agency and they are not all bad the reasons why they did what they did is

[00:39:27] because they were motivated by wanting to help children in korea now are there some complexities

[00:39:33] or shite that's that's interwoven into that adoption agency absolutely and so we have to talk

[00:39:41] about that and figure that out because when we don't talk the truth that is when those darkness just

[00:39:46] cracks through and does so much damage and what you're saying it puts us at war with ourselves

[00:39:52] and that that is like it stops us it prevents us from what you're trying to do is have the thriving

[00:39:59] component of what can be if we shine the light on the truth and you do that well i that's what i'm trying

[00:40:08] to do so it's i'm always delighted to hear that um i'm achieving what i'm trying to achieve right um

[00:40:15] um so it picking up and trying trying to step back for a minute and and kind of ask you a question

[00:40:26] about what you're saying so you talk about truth you talk about asking questions you talk about

[00:40:32] exploration what what else is it i mean you know like so i've come up with three things there that are

[00:40:40] um drivers thrive oh there's something there isn't that thriving drivers yeah drivers of thriving

[00:40:48] what would it be i don't know anyway there's three of them there so what did we say we said the truth

[00:40:54] we said uh asking um questions and we said exploring exploration so exploration

[00:41:04] questioning and the truth what other drivers do you see of thriving well first off do you think

[00:41:14] first off do you do you agree with that kind of summation yeah i think that those asking questions

[00:41:20] about being curious if you're not curious then you're not going to ask good questions i think that also

[00:41:26] the part about um uh community of like building community of that builds strength and so that you

[00:41:34] know that you're not alone and part of the power for me of learning about doing this podcast project is

[00:41:39] that i don't know who listens to my show i'm not like you i i don't have i know that i don't have a

[00:41:43] hundred thousand downloads maybe it's five or six but i have to believe that in creating community no

[00:41:49] matter how we do it is so that those that listen or are part of the show feel that they are not alone

[00:41:54] that you've got somebody who can like you can ask those questions to be curious and to ask those

[00:42:00] questions another part i think that's important that we don't talk a lot about is creativity of having

[00:42:06] that growth mindset to be able to like figure out like what are the ways that we can that you just

[00:42:10] said thriving drivers or driving driver thrivers you know let's explore a little bit and figuring out

[00:42:17] what are the ways that we can use our creative ways whether that's through poetry or music or

[00:42:23] or hosting you just said you just did a facilitated a conference with i don't know let's say 100 200

[00:42:32] 3 000 people there well that gives you the opportunity to be creative to ask those questions while you've

[00:42:38] got a captive audience to say how do we move forward this is what i know from like having 100 000

[00:42:45] listeners download my episodes because they're curious and they're craving connection and community and

[00:42:51] questions um and you do that where you you know you ask how can i do this better what can i do how can i do

[00:42:58] this um i learned maybe this doesn't work but this does work and the more creative that we can be in these

[00:43:05] connections like you're in the uk right now i'm in the us and and we're still making this conversation

[00:43:11] happen that's that's absolutely amazing i love that so much in the world that we live in today

[00:43:17] yeah i love it too uh and uh so it's coming up two years ago now i was talking about um metrics with uh

[00:43:29] a transracial adoptee called uh called vin who's been on the show a couple of times i've spoken to him

[00:43:35] recently um i did email him and i heard back anyway um but he he he said uh simon you're getting uh

[00:43:46] because i was comparing myself to somebody else right and he said you're getting um quality confused with

[00:43:54] quantity so there's always going to be somebody ahead of us there's always going to be somebody behind us

[00:44:01] right we do it it's really important for me like i do the podcast in the way that um uh that i feel

[00:44:09] best and you do that you do your podcast in the way that you do it but you've got us you know like

[00:44:13] what one of the reasons i've got these numbers of downloads is because of the number of episodes

[00:44:18] i've got and because i haven't got a day job right so give yourself a break on that right you know on the

[00:44:24] day job because like you've this is this is a sidekick and i want to uh i want to pick up on the

[00:44:31] curiosity thing because funnily enough right that's another one of richard schwartz's eight c's

[00:44:42] so curiosity so um what what if we've we've looking at uh connection curiosity

[00:44:56] curiosity quest curiosity and questions truth um creativity yeah i think that's also one of his eight c's

[00:45:06] right so that'd be interesting um if those are some of the things that help us the drive that drive

[00:45:15] our thriving or thriving drivers driving thrivers whatever um what what do you think gets in our way

[00:45:25] thriving i think that those insecurities of feeling that we're going to be rejected the the core of it

[00:45:31] always for me is that i felt like i was going to be rejected if people saw the shape of my eyes they

[00:45:37] would reject me if they knew that my middle name was jinja they're going to reject me if i do a podcast

[00:45:43] and nobody listens that i'm that i'm not good enough and that i don't belong here and so that fear of

[00:45:49] rejection gets us it gets in the way of us thriving because then we're afraid to be able to try new

[00:45:55] things to be curious to ask questions to to connect to a community like you were saying my parents did

[00:46:02] it they said let's go to the whole picnic i said no um i remember my mom saying i want you to meet katie

[00:46:08] who's an adoptee who lives down the street you could be her friend she's her same age she's adopted

[00:46:12] and i was like i'm not meeting katie i mean and again poor katie i'm sorry i'm sure you're a very nice

[00:46:18] person i wish i had become your friend but all those things like you're saying where we become at war

[00:46:23] with ourselves a civil war within ourselves that prevents us from being our best selves and i would

[00:46:30] say the other thing for me is that i have struggled with all my life is jealousy that i have been jealous

[00:46:36] of that person with the blonde hair and blue eyes i've been jealous of the person that is not an

[00:46:41] adoptee and it feels like they're part of the perfect family that part of the sweet bailey high

[00:46:46] books which i'm not sure if you have those at the uk but they're these these uh books for preteens

[00:46:52] that are about these perfect twins who have the perfect family and these problems of whether or

[00:46:56] not they get a boyfriend or not and you know those weren't my problems and i was jealous i was jealous

[00:47:01] of um you know if i just acknowledge my shadowy side like look at simon fed thriving adoptees he's

[00:47:07] amazing i suck he's great he's doing all this i can't do it and so i shouldn't even do my podcast

[00:47:13] i don't know why i just got a southern accent hold on a minute how many have you done oh i can't i think

[00:47:18] 60 oh well okay yeah see see yeah and so you do you've done 60 despite that shite that's right and

[00:47:29] so you you despite yourself despite the shite despite the shite oh my gosh look at us we're coming

[00:47:35] with all sorts of good stuff despite the shite you've done you've done 60 and you've got a day

[00:47:40] job and you've done 60 and you've what have you done you've you've ignored that negative voice in

[00:47:46] your head and you've just got on and done it yeah but again it's because of like listening to episodes

[00:47:52] like you of going to that workshop and that build strength and the more that you can be brave and

[00:47:58] courageous maybe that's the other c is being courageous enough to be able to like listen to

[00:48:03] simon and listen to those episodes listen to his guests come to those workshops i mean it was great

[00:48:09] i think there were like 80 people on there maybe more and i just sat and listened i mean i didn't

[00:48:14] have to show myself i didn't have to prove myself i just had to show up and that's what i say to

[00:48:20] everybody just show up yeah you know that book that i wrote that novel i wrote i had so many people

[00:48:28] tell me that you know it's just who do you think you are that you could write a novel and it's 232 pages

[00:48:35] of crap and i again i was like the shite i moved forward with that book because it's my fictionalized

[00:48:43] version of my lived experience as an adoptee well why have they got to say that to you

[00:48:47] yeah it wasn't very nice to put it bluntly yeah it was not very nice so like we've got this we have

[00:48:59] this thing like bad bad managers say this to people you know when i want your opinion i'll give it to you

[00:49:09] yeah that's like i don't know whether

[00:49:17] everybody's trying to give us their opinion like why does it like why do they need to why do they feel

[00:49:26] they need to give us that why do they why do they need to give us their shite um because they're

[00:49:31] you know hurt people hurt people um and i will say give i want to give a shout out to um claire

[00:49:39] steel who lives in england and kate walton because those two women when i said oh my gosh i can't do

[00:49:46] this because i'm not good enough they said that is utter and they did say that's utter shite anna

[00:49:52] that you do this even if one person listens even if one person reads it because it's yours

[00:49:57] yeah and you put it out into the world and you don't you are not do not be afraid of doing this

[00:50:03] and there's to this day i had a conversation with claire a week ago where she's like i said again

[00:50:08] claire what if only five people buy this book and she's like who cares anna she's like just you do

[00:50:15] it because you love it and because you're meant to do it i'm with that i'm with you on that and my

[00:50:24] um shite is a word that's probably more used in scotland than england i would say right anyway but

[00:50:31] one of my mentors uh liz uh she has been trying to say that if it if one person listens or one person

[00:50:40] gets it that's enough right she'd been trying to say me that for about 12 years but there was

[00:50:47] something the way that vin said it to me um that that landed for me so i would encourage people that

[00:50:58] are listening and to keep keep exploring because you might hear the same thing said like it took me 15

[00:51:12] years of liz saying it to me and she tried it in her ways but the way that vin said it to me it landed

[00:51:19] so it was almost as if um liz's work was the um was the foundation and then um i talk about this like uh

[00:51:32] it's like um insights it's like your baby teeth you know so they wobble a bit right so they wobble a bit

[00:51:40] and and then they fall out right so liz spent 15 years wobbling the tooth the belief right and then

[00:51:48] the way that vin said it it just it was it just fell out at that time and the other thing is that

[00:51:55] that doesn't mean it doesn't come back yeah but when it comes back it's less scary than it was

[00:52:05] before yeah and for those listeners out there i just like the other thing is that when you do this

[00:52:11] you heal yourself and through this process and for me um doing the podcast and writing the book it was

[00:52:17] a healing process for me to be able to come to that place of thriving i would not be able i wouldn't

[00:52:23] be in the place that i am if i hadn't done it and so if even if it just benefits i shouldn't say

[00:52:29] even when it benefits you and you step into what simon's hoping for adoptees that thriving piece

[00:52:37] you can do it and that's why you should do it i'm gonna share something now right that it might be a

[00:52:45] bit of a surprise i'm getting a bit embarrassed by how many nice things you're saying to me

[00:52:53] i want to because i think i'm pretty good at that stuff right i think i'm okay at accepting

[00:52:58] compliments um we met this woman on holiday a couple of years ago me and my wife and we know

[00:53:06] we're chatting to her and her and her son and her and her daughter i don't can't remember and

[00:53:12] their parents and stuff like that and we saw them at the saw them by the pool and um she

[00:53:20] then we saw them in again in the evening and i was saying i said to all this is like i don't know 10

[00:53:26] years ago i said what i said to this woman what a fantastic top i really love the color of that top

[00:53:32] and she looked at me like saying that i was taking the mickey right that i was taking the piss you know

[00:53:39] and she looked at me like i said no really really i i used to have a i used to have a shirt that color

[00:53:49] years ago i don't know what happened to it but i really love the color and you've reminded me of

[00:53:54] that color and so i'm not i'm not taking the mickey i really do love it and she couldn't she just

[00:54:00] couldn't take the um she couldn't take the compliments but so i think that i'm okay at taking

[00:54:07] compliments and yet i'm feeling just a little bit tricky you know so it's really weird isn't it

[00:54:15] well and i think it's it's the same thing like with claire and kate who gave me support

[00:54:21] encouragement and so when it sometimes it feels like you're just saying that because you want to

[00:54:25] be nice and it goes back to the truth the truth is that simon if we didn't have podcasts like yours

[00:54:32] and for me to listen to it and to be able to ask those questions then i i would be lost and i would

[00:54:39] be like in a place where i'm hating myself and so i think it's so important when we when we talked

[00:54:45] about community and be able to lift each other up in a way that helps us to give us support

[00:54:50] encouragement to say keep doing it keep doing what you're doing because it means something to somebody

[00:54:55] and for those who are listening right now who may have been like i wore sunglasses to hide who i am

[00:55:02] or i hated myself that they can say i'm going to take a first step and just like join

[00:55:09] um a workshop that simon presents so i can just listen i think that's so important and i think

[00:55:16] it's just like saying now i'm sure there are many things that are wrong with me i'm a procrastinator

[00:55:22] i sometimes chew with my mouth open which is terrible um but i also don't even know why i'm talking to you

[00:55:30] that's a joke right

[00:55:33] but i do know i i genuinely care about people i care about their stories i will honor them in

[00:55:39] love them and i will like say when is the truth some of my my sisters say oh my gosh you always

[00:55:45] have something to say to somebody and it's usually positive and i say but it's never a lie i will

[00:55:51] never say oh i love that dress when i don't it'll be i can find something to compliment and say i love

[00:55:58] that about you and what i love about you simon is that you do you connect you create community and you

[00:56:04] like um foster curiosity in the best ways and so you just take that simon there you go there's your

[00:56:11] compliments thank you i've taken it i'm glad yeah and thank you for all the work that you do so in

[00:56:19] the show notes right you're going to check out the listeners you're going to check out anna's

[00:56:24] podcast and you're also going to check out her book so um yeah uh what what else would you like

[00:56:32] to share is there anything else you'd like to share that i've not asked you about yeah i just think about

[00:56:36] the book uh adopting grace the last thing i want to be able to say about that book is that writing a

[00:56:42] piece of fiction based on your lived experiences is probably one of the best things i ever did and if

[00:56:48] you do that and you just burn it someday or just do whatever for me it helped me process in a meaningful

[00:56:54] way of those things that had happened to me that i didn't want to say to the person or put it out

[00:57:00] there in a non-fiction or in a blog or anything like that i wanted to be able to process it in the

[00:57:05] way that i needed to and so for those that are looking to write their books um there are people like

[00:57:11] claire that can help you okay so uh claire is like a writing coach she is right here in england

[00:57:19] um and then she just started her own publishing business as well unfortunately it was after my book

[00:57:24] was um picked by a publisher here in the midwest but um she i think finding someone like claire steel

[00:57:31] it's so incredible because she um she just helps you figure it out and and i would say you know get uh

[00:57:41] talk talk to claire find out what claire's doing and have a look around because is claire an adoptee

[00:57:48] she's not she's not okay so there are there are adoptee specialists right so you've got to find

[00:57:54] it's a bit like finding a therapist you've got to find yes you've got to find the right um support

[00:57:59] coach the support uh community coach whatever um to to help you do that uh and while i'm on that

[00:58:08] sort of subject if um an idea just pops into mind so if anybody wants to start a podcast

[00:58:18] um then uh you know i'd be happy to get on a zoom call for an hour and share what i've learned about

[00:58:27] podcasts with people and i'm pretty sure you would be up for that as well if you could yes what you

[00:58:33] yeah um hey we could do that couldn't we why don't we do that why don't we do a panel um uh but i

[00:58:42] wonder how many people would there yeah no wonder how many people would want to do that um there you

[00:58:47] are you see it's it helps one person uh i need to figure that out how do you think there's many

[00:58:54] latent pod dot two podcasters out there that would want to do about learn about doing a podcast

[00:58:59] i think there are i think that um people say to me all the time i actually do a podcast but they

[00:59:04] just don't know where to get started and it seems so overwhelming um but there there are lots of ways

[00:59:10] to and resources out there like the two of us who are willing to help well maybe we'll have a

[00:59:14] think about that and do we'll do an event uh on on on that we'll call it despite the shite

[00:59:20] despite the shite yeah workshop yeah thanks anna thank you uh listeners and we'll speak to you again

[00:59:28] very soon okay bye thank you

[00:59:29] you