Confidence With Jennifer Jue-Steuck

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined in person, right? In person by Jennifer Jue-Steuck. Steuck we're pronouncing it? Yeah. Yeah, it's German for peace. Not as in war and peace, but as in piece of cake. And Jennifer and I have been meaning to get together for about a year or so when she's finally made it to Yorkshire.

[00:00:30] And keen listeners to the show will remember Jennifer has been on before. So welcome to the show for the second time. Welcome back. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Oh, so we're doing this on my computer looking at each other on the video screen. Double. Double, yeah. And it's a little bit of a weird situation, but we're doing, we're rolling with it, we're laughing with it.

[00:00:59] Yeah. So, last time Jen and I talked about healing. Today, and there's a link to that, link to that first episode in the show notes. And today we're going to talk about thriving because that's what Thriving Adoptees is all about. So, what does thriving mean to you, Jen? Wow. Okay. So, thriving. So, just for the record, I didn't realize we were talking about thriving today.

[00:01:27] I thought we were talking about healing, but I think the two and two go hand in hand. So, thriving to me, I think means blooming your best wherever you were planted. Taking whatever challenges, personal experiences that you might have. And whether at the time you thought it was negative or positive or however you felt about it, taking it and transforming that experience into something new, elevating and enhancing the human experience.

[00:01:56] That's what thriving means to me, today at least. Today, yeah. So, yeah, it does shift, doesn't it? The way that we see life, the way that we see words changes, changes over time. So, elevating, what did you say? What was the one? And I think I said enhancing and elevating just the human experience. The human. Our human experience. Our human experience. Our human experience.

[00:02:26] Yeah, and how we collectively, all through our collective experiences, help one another to learn how to thrive in different kinds of scenarios, situations, circumstances. And it connects to something I was going to talk to you about today. And I was curious about your thoughts about legacy confidence, because I've been thinking lately as an adopted person. Am I still allowed to talk about adoption? Of course. Of course, yeah. You can talk about whatever you like.

[00:02:53] Okay. I was thinking today about how we as adopted people enter space. When we enter a room or let's say even now it's using technology, sharing space. How I was thinking about how I've often struggled with not feeling very confident and feeling very awkward and really shy and not really understanding why that was.

[00:03:21] And then I suddenly realized like this last week that I think I struggle with what I'm calling legacy confidence. And so part of thriving for me is learning how to lean into my own legacy confidence more. And what I mean by that is, even though we might not know about our biological backgrounds, I don't at least, that we don't have that contextualization and that foundational knowledge of where we come from.

[00:03:51] I think that having legacy confidence means regardless of whether or not you know or you have missing pieces of your background, that you can come into a space feeling proud of who you are and feeling confident about who you are. And knowing that you still have a legacy, you have a family legacy, and whether it's known or not known, how to tap into that inner resilience and connection, I think. Yeah. Beautiful.

[00:04:21] Beautiful. Beautiful. And as you're talking about that, I was thinking that you used to do loads of public speaking. Yeah. Yeah. So like most people, that's apparently the second people fear death and then public speaking is second or something like that. It's a big fear thing. Oh, I didn't realize it was that high. Yeah. It's a big fear thing.

[00:04:44] But so you must have had some confidence to do that or you must have had some confidence or maybe you just ignored your nerves, right? I must have. You know, I think it was a process for me.

[00:05:00] I think thriving on stage or thriving in public speaking is, I remember being so nervous about it when I was nine and I had to give my first presentation and I was shaking. I mean, I was so nervous. I had to talk about Laura Ingalls Wilder, Little House on the Prairie. We were doing book presentations about novels we were reading at school. And then I and then I think what happened is in high school, I was part of modeling United Nations.

[00:05:30] And so I just started to have to give so many talks being part of that club and really impromptu. I think I just became really comfortable. So I think part of thriving is just practicing putting ourselves in those situations that can maybe make us or used to make us uncomfortable and and getting comfortable with falling. And that's something I think as an adopted person, I've also had to learn in terms of thriving.

[00:05:56] How do we how do we thrive if maybe, you know, maybe it's adoption related or not. But if we're not very comfortable with falling, I think it can be challenging to thrive because we have to learn. Lately, I've been thinking I can only succeed as fast as I can fall. I have to get comfortable with falling, with making mistakes, you know, and I think I wouldn't say I was a perfectionist,

[00:06:20] but I think earlier I felt like a lot of pressure to get things right and to get them right early the first time to do really well in school, to be very high achieving. And and I always felt like I didn't want to let people down by making a mistake. But now I realize, you know what? And it's OK. It's OK. It's OK. And in fact, it's great. It's like make more mistakes. I'm telling myself, make a lot of mistakes. That's part of my thriving process. And part of that is learning how to skateboard. I'm learning how to skateboard for the first time.

[00:06:48] And that's really helping me to thrive, actually, with this whole getting comfortable with making mistakes process. Sorry, I think I ran away with your question and took it somewhere else. That's OK. That's OK. For me, when we get near this, this idea of failing or falling, whatever, I remember seeing a little kid fall over.

[00:07:14] I think he was in the supermarket. Right. So I saw this little kid fall over his maybe shoelaces were and were done up or something. Anyway, he stumbled and fell over. And I looked at him and he seemed to be OK in himself. But then he looked, he looked to his mum to see her reaction. And isn't isn't that how we isn't that how we learn?

[00:07:39] We learn from we learn from how other people react to our to us and react to our events. So if the if the mum is concerned, right, if the mum thinks it's falling over or she's worried about a kid or she's crying or, you know, she goes into some sort of spin out about, you know, well, come on.

[00:08:04] And just goes rushing up to to little Johnny or Jasmine or Jen. Right. Then the the the child learns that falling, falling over is bad. Mm hmm. And the flip side of that. So the story goes, we're talking about failing in business here. Think about Richard Branson, you know, the Virgin Virgin Atlantic.

[00:08:32] The entrepreneur, the Virgin Atlantic owner and lots of different stuff. He his mum. So the story goes, right. His mum used to put him out of the car, like three miles away from home and the and and he had to find his own way home. Right. So we've got to. We've got to. We've got to.

[00:08:59] Two completely different attitudes to risk or danger there. Yeah. And he wasn't. He wasn't bothered. So he was. Yeah, he wasn't scared. He was finding his he was finding his own finding his own way. He was she she was teaching him how to be.

[00:09:22] Comfortable with the uncomfortable comfortable in the unknown, whereas you got some tiger mum that's that's worried to death about the fact that the kid has fallen. And help themselves. And we we learn our confidence from the people around us and what they do most of the time. Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely.

[00:09:44] And that's such a good point of, you know, and also I saw a two year old fall down in a park a few weeks ago. And, you know, some parents, they rush to to go rescue their child and they and they say like, oh, are you OK? Because her the the little kid, the two year old started to cry. But that I was really impressed that mom, she just she didn't even turn around. She just kept walking and she said, get back up. It's very quietly. Get back up. And, you know, follow me. Keep going. Yeah.

[00:10:14] And I thought that was such a great thing. Yeah. Because my mom did not do that. My mom definitely did not just say, get back up. Yeah. So it's harder, though, when you're older and then you have to learn. Well, that's it. Yeah. Yeah. But a lot of a lot of people that learn, you know, learn businesses early, they have less on the line. Right. They haven't got a mortgage. They haven't got a family to support. You know that. Yeah. The earlier they start, they've got less on the line. They haven't got anything. So there's nothing at risk. Right.

[00:10:44] Whereas, you know, I think of somebody who's maybe in a high by a high powered corporate job. Well, they can't they can't jump because the whole lifestyle is being built around the consistency of, you know, they're living within their means. But they're on a big salary and they've got their private health care in the States. And obviously that goes when they lose.

[00:11:11] The thing that's popping into my head is about my, you know, me and learning, learning stuff off my dad. Right. So I remember a conversation probably about 12 years or so ago. We we were talking about fear of failure. And I said to something, something like to, you know, what's what's the point of that? Or, you know, asking a question about that.

[00:11:38] He said, well, I was thought that fear of failure that kept me on my toes. Right. It kept me playing at the best of the best of my game, top of my game. And I said to him, well, it might have done that, but it stopped you being happy. And a tear came to his eye. Oh, wow. Because he saw the truth in that. Right. And he didn't. He hadn't seen that before.

[00:12:06] But I remember as a as a kid. We were away on holiday and my dad said something like, I wonder if we'll have a business. I wonder if I'll have a business when I get home. Oh, wow. OK, because we're going back 50 years. Right. So there's no he wasn't calling into work. There's no mobile phones. There's no Internet. There's no email.

[00:12:32] And so he I firmly believe that we kind of we learned this or I've learned this confidence. I've learned a lot from from my dad. So I tend to I tend to go from extreme naive overconfidence to big fears. Oh, interesting. OK, because that's what he was like. Oh, that's what he was like.

[00:13:00] But he he he he he didn't let us know about the fear. But that was that was going on for him. That's why he said, you know, I always had that feeling fear of fear of failing because I thought that was a good thing. It kept me on my toes. So he'd had that all the way through his maybe his business life. Oh, so. Oh, but you said it also kept you from being happy.

[00:13:30] And he did. And he my dad did. I've never seen him cry. I've never seen him shed a tear. Oh, really? No. OK, so that was very. British boys don't cry. Simon Ben does. Wow. OK, that's really interesting. So. So what does it mean? You know, I'm curious. What does thriving mean for you then?

[00:13:56] Because obviously, Simon and I were catching up just now and I didn't realize that we that, you know, lately you've really been having a lot of discussions. It sounds like I'm thriving. Yeah. Well, that's the whole focus now. So I mean, because some people didn't like the word healing. And also it allowed a more broader conversation, I think. Mm hmm.

[00:14:17] And the I heard something yesterday about healing and like, well, we only need to heal if we think we're wounded. Right. I see. OK. Right. So are we are we wounded? Nancy Varia would say that we are. What's wounded? I mean, we're into a whole different kettle of bananas on a different. I don't I personally don't think that we're wounded.

[00:14:45] However, I don't think, though, that that's the possibility that one could still heal. I don't for me personally. I don't think we have to be wounded to heal, because for me, I feel like and this is just more generally, I feel like and it's not even an adoption topic per se, but that who isn't healing from something in their life? Well, there's a loss of a parent, loss of a job, loss of, you know, community and change. Maybe you lost a baby. Maybe you had a miscarriage. I've had a miscarriage.

[00:15:15] I mean, so even if I wasn't adopted, I feel like there might be things that I might be healing from. But that doesn't mean that I'm necessarily wounded. Well, for me, at least I don't think about it that way. Well, what do you think? Well, I was in publishing, so sometimes I can take things too literally. Do you know what I mean?

[00:15:37] But it's like, well, but I was listening to a podcast on the way back from the swimming pool today from the teacher of a guy that I really respect. And he was talking about this sort of, he was talking about this sort of thing, you know, how do we, how do we heal or how do we grow? How do we transform? How do we see the essence of who we are? And he was talking all about basically openness.

[00:16:07] It's our, our, our, our beliefs. I've heard this before, like our beliefs are like bouncers, right? Bouncers at a nightclub, right? So belief, beliefs, the bouncer doesn't let the kid in because he's got trainers on. Do you know what I mean? Yes. And they, and the belief acts in the same way.

[00:16:33] So that for many other, many adoptees that I've, that I've spoken with, they don't believe that they can heal. Really? Oh, wow. Okay. Now that's a big belief to have, right? That's huge, massive. But it all goes into, it goes into what we mean by healing.

[00:16:58] So you're talking about healing as after a loss, I would say, rather than a wound. You're saying don't need to be wounded to heal. Right. But what you were talking to me, you talking about, you know, miscarriage or, you know, loss of a parent and these, these things, right?

[00:17:19] So, uh, people would use, people wouldn't use wound in, uh, in respect to the loss of a parent, would they? Probably not. Or the death of a parent. Except, except maybe in the adoption world. I feel like we, we do, we do have the loss of our parents. I mean, that's why we were, of our biological parents and that's why we were adopted.

[00:17:45] And so that's why I've always personally felt like it wasn't really appropriate to call myself wounded necessarily. For me, everyone's different. Yeah, yeah. Everyone's different. Right. So, you know, I would say that, um, well, what, what, what's, what's, what's wounded? What is wounded? Yeah. What is wounded?

[00:18:09] Well, uh, I think my take on it just me is, would be, uh, our, our sense of selves, right? Or, and our feelings, our feelings are wounded, right? We have wounded feelings and our sense of self, but it is our sense of self who we are. No, that is just our, our sense of who we are.

[00:18:34] So, um, where I, with this, we, we talked about quite a lot on the podcast, this uppercase S self. So you've got the lowercase, lowercase, the, the lower, lowercase s, the little s self, right? Which could be described as the ego. Okay. Right. And that could also be described as the sense of self. Okay.

[00:18:59] And then we've got the uppercase S self, which is what some people would call consciousness or awareness or I, you know, the truth, the essence of who we are, our essence. Mm-hmm . And that one of the great gifts we've got in, uh, in today's world is we've got this guy called, um, uh, Dick Schwartz. He created this thing called, uh, internal family systems.

[00:19:29] And he talks about the uppercase S self. And that, that's the self, um, that is underneath our trauma. That is underneath our loss. That is underneath our psychology. So it's, it's, it's, it's, it's hidden. And the, my, my, my take on trauma is trauma hides us. It doesn't hurt us.

[00:19:59] It, it hides our uppercase S self. And one of the, this, this book, uh, no bad parts from, from Dick Schwartz, Richard Schwartz, uh, talks about the seven C's, the seven C's of the uppercase S self. Right.

[00:20:17] So this is, these are the characteristics, characteristics because, and this makes, it makes this, uh, it gives clarity to the sorts of things. Uh, it gives clarity to the essence of the uppercase S self to do the seven C's. And one of them, long story, right? Long way around this, but one of them is confidence. Oh, one of them. Okay. Another one of them is connectedness.

[00:20:46] And both of those things that you talked about, you, you mentioned both those words, uh, confidence and connectedness. Yes. I don't know. I can't remember all the other C's off the top of my head, but one of the other ones is calm. Right. Calm, confident. We put those words together. A lot of doing calm, confident, connected, connected.

[00:21:09] Like, so we connect you, you and me connect right here, like two foot away from each other. And we connect via zoom and we're connecting with, uh, connect to everybody else. All the other people have been on podcast. So we've, there's a sense of connection. If we go to an adoptee get together, we've got some shared, we've got some shared experience. And we feel connected. Yes.

[00:21:38] And that is big for us because many, many adoptees haven't felt connected in their own, in their adoptive family. They haven't, they haven't felt that connected. Right. They felt othered. They felt, they felt separate. They felt different. They felt odd. They felt like they didn't fit in. They felt othered. Mm hmm.

[00:22:04] So thriving for me is, is all about, is, uh, now I come to see it in, in, uh, on the back of what I just said. It's, it's all about those seven C's. It's living from our uppercase S self. It's being calm, confident, connected, and all the other C's that I can't remember. Mm hmm. Yeah. Right.

[00:22:31] Rather than calm, rather than being agitated or anxious, confident, rather being worried. Right. No connected, feeling connected, rather than disconnected or separate. Right. Right. The ego is a separate self, isn't it? Right. We feel separate. Yes. Which one could argue is, is an illusion, can be an illusion sometimes.

[00:22:58] Um, or, or, or a dimension of, it's a dimension of perspective. Right. Cause you're saying when we, when we can tap into that uppercase S, then we, we are able to maybe feel more connected. Can I understand this? Definitely. Okay. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So one of the characteristics of the uppercase S self is connected, connectedness, connection. So in that space, we are there.

[00:23:26] Um, so yeah, it is totally about perspective. It is totally about perspective. Right. And, and the, so it, it is, it's about our essence. It's about who we are. It's about the truth of who we are. And it's about how we identify.

[00:23:48] So we can identify with our, um, lowercase S self. Or, you know, like we can, uh, done a lot of, done some poetry about this. Um, and, and some posts on Facebook. So we can look, we can think of our, we can look at the sky. And I'm looking at the sky.

[00:24:16] Now we've got some pretty heavy duty winds going on and we can look at the clouds and think that they're, they're bad moods. And we can look at what looks like to be blue, blue clouds. And we think that that's a happy mood. So we can look at sadness and happiness. But, but that little piece of blue isn't a little piece of blue. It looks like a piece of blue, but it is the sky.

[00:24:44] We are, we are the sky. We are the space in which, um, the, uh, the, the trauma storm appears. With, yeah, the uppercase S is the sky. Okay. The trauma is the storm clouds. That's a really interesting way to see it. I like that. I've never had someone say that to me. It's a, it's a Buddhist thing.

[00:25:13] I think I picked up a long way. I'm not a Buddhist, but I put it. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. But we're so, we're so, we're so, uh, we're so, uh, uh, identified with our lowercase. Yes. Self. We feel separate. Yeah. We started off life in, in utero. We came out. There was a, somebody snipped the cord.

[00:25:43] We were physically separate. Yes. And then if we're in an optee where there's a, that physical separation. Right. Is bigger. It's pronounced. It's pronounced. It's pronounced. And for you, it's thousands of miles. Mm hmm. Oh yeah. Halfway around the world. Yeah. And, and with barriers of language and culture, history. Yeah. And that, and that transracial adoption. Oh yeah.

[00:26:12] Experience adds a whole, another layer of complexity and. Oh, absolutely. To the, to the, to the, to the trauma. Yeah. Yeah. The felt. So you, we, we feel, but everybody feels separate. Every. Every. Every. Well, most people in the world identify with their lowercase sense of self.

[00:26:37] It's just that adoptees have, have that feeling a lot earlier. Yeah. And transracial adoptees. Even more pronounced. It's all about the sense of. Cause. When like genetic mirroring and all these different things, different challenges. Yeah. Right. So it all adds to the sense of separance. Right. So I guess I'm wondering, this is fascinating.

[00:27:03] And I, I guess listening to you, I'm wondering then how can we dive even deeper into what you're talking about with upper case S and lowercase S and what would you say then are, are maybe thoughts or tips or that you've been discussing that are really helpful when. So. So. So my general strategy for this is to find somebody that's further along the way and

[00:27:32] listen to them. A mentoring. Mentor. Yeah. A mentor or, you know, a one-to-one mentor or like in a group mentoring or read their books or watch their videos on YouTube or listen to their podcasts on podcast catch or whatever we've got or what else do we read? Yeah. Read the books. Go on the, go on the retreats.

[00:28:00] Find, find somebody who has, who can see the upper case as self more clearly. Oh, I like that. Yes. To help you sort of just tilt your, you know, maybe change your angle the way that you're exactly. Yeah. Things just, just a little bit. Cause if you change it just a little, it can make everything. It can make a difference. Yeah. Yeah. So find, find a teacher who resonates. Change. Wow. Okay.

[00:28:27] So I met with a friend in London yesterday and he, he was, we weren't, he's not adopted, but we were talking about just slowing down. And he was telling me about how he tries to slow down and everything that he does. And also that most people go around the world, just reacting to everything. And I, I feel like that's connecting to what you're saying about this lowercase s that if

[00:28:53] we are living and experiencing life through the lowercase s, then we would be quite reactive. Right. Um, so, but I think he was also encouraging us to sort of, maybe, maybe he was trying to say by slowing down a bit, maybe we can get more in touch with that evercase s that you're talking about. Perhaps. Totally. Totally. Yeah.

[00:29:19] We've got, so to go back to the analogy, um, you know, we talk about the bounces, the beliefs being like bounces, you know, we need to find a big door, don't we as well? Right. We need to find the space. We need to give ourselves the space for new ideas to, uh, if we slow down. Yes.

[00:29:42] We're more likely if we, if we slow down, if we slow down, we're more likely for new, to have new ideas. Right. So, um, there was this, there was this survey of where new ideas come from, new perspectives come from, and this was done in the States.

[00:30:09] And, uh, it, it, they said, uh, you know, 90% of the ideas came to their executives, not, not whilst they were brainstorming that when they're in a meeting, they came to them when they were in the shower, right? Or when they were driving to and from work. Obviously this is before COVID and all that stuff. Right. So we, we have the innovative new ideas when there is natural space. Right.

[00:30:39] So, um, apparently the, when presented with this, one of the CEOs said, so, so how many showers should my executives be having a day? Right. It's not the shower. It's not the shower that creates the idea. It it's, it's when, uh, when we're not thinking about stuff. So when, when we've put the problem on the back burner. Yeah.

[00:31:08] So you can go to that. Have you ever done this? When you go to bed, like you've, you've been thinking about a particular issue, um, in the evening, uh, you can't find an answer. Uh, you wake up in the morning and the answer hits you straight away. Has that ever happened to you? Yes. Oh, a lot. Yes. So the best. When you're relaxed. Yeah. So relaxed, open in the shower, in your bed, walking the dog, driving the car, whatever,

[00:31:36] when you're not, when we're not thinking, you know, like, yeah, I used to say I'm a recovering overthinker. If there was a, if there was a, you know, the Olympic sport, if there was an Olympic event, you know, we're thinking. You would win. I would be. I would be. I would be. Or at least podium. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. I can relate. So, but then, but we look at calm again, right? Right.

[00:32:04] So, but we're calm and confident and connected. And isn't that the best, isn't that the best time to be for us to have shifts in our perspective? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And, and I think I like this door. I mean, I'm looking up right now because I'm just at the sky and I, I'm thinking about the door and the bouncers and then visualizing everything. And just thinking about your right, just creating that space.

[00:32:34] How do we create that space internally to create that shift to tap into that capital S so that we can thrive? We are that space. Okay. Yeah. We, okay. You're listening. Okay. We are, we are that space. Okay. So do you want to add more about your thoughts about that?

[00:33:02] Well, so we're back to the sky and the clouds, aren't we? Yes. Okay. So, um, so I'll shift slightly. Uh, so you, everybody talks about being a space. Being triggered, don't they? Yes. I got triggered. I got triggered. Okay. So, um, what, what happens when we get triggered? That there's an explosion, right? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:28] When you get triggered, it's like the, somebody pulls the trigger on the gun and there's a bang, right? Okay. So there's an explosion. So if we take that into our own, into our own, um, into our, if you link that to identity, we're, we are the space in which that explosion happens. Mm-hmm. Right. Definitely. Yeah.

[00:33:55] We're not the, so it's, um, if we're triggered, so we, it might be anger. Okay. Yeah. So we are the space in, we're, we're not the anger. We're the space in which the anger happens. Right. Definitely. Yes. Right. Or some people might say the witness and presence. Right. I'm saying the witnessing presence. I like that witnessing presence. Yeah. That's nice. That's nice. Yeah. That's the space.

[00:34:25] We, we are the space, right? It's like being, oh, I've got to be more open for change to happen. Well, no, you, we, we are open. We have to see our openness. We have to see, we have to identify, uh, well, going back to an adoption thing, right? We have to, I, we, I don't, I've done this and many of us do this. We identify with the trauma, which is the cloud. Mm hmm.

[00:34:55] We don't identify with which the sky, which is who we are. Mm hmm. I can see that. We see everybody else. Right. Obsessing about the trauma. Right. Yeah. And saying that we can't heal. Mm hmm. We start to believe that we can't heal because somebody tells us, you know, like there's a, there's, there's an author, right?

[00:35:23] An author writes a book and somebody with authority, same word, right? Right. Author, authority, right? Yeah. So we read, uh, Nancy Vareos book that tells us that we're wounded. A camel wound. Yeah. And we believe that we're wounded. Mm hmm. We have a diagnosis and now we're stuck with it. Mm hmm. Wow. Uh, yeah, I, I'm just thinking to that, you know, that's such a, okay. I'm bringing, I'm circling back to the adoption community again with thriving because

[00:35:51] I think you're so right because I didn't, I grew up relatively isolated as an adopted person. I didn't know a lot of other adopted people when I was growing up, except for my brother who's adopted from Seoul, South Korea. And, um, and so, but we didn't, you know, he's younger than I and we didn't sit around talking about our adoption. Um, and we were too busy playing, but, but I mean, I, I think I grew up very isolated, not part of any adoption group.

[00:36:19] And it wasn't until I was in university in New York city that I started to meet other adoptees. And I went to my first adoption group and I think you're right. That was, that became in a way, my first mirror. And I love how you say that we are the space because if we think about ourselves as the space, what I think about then is what is our responsibility? Um, if we are the space, what is our responsibility to community as, as adopted people, as adopted

[00:36:48] speakers, leaders? Um, because what, how we think about ourselves, if we're thinking about ourselves from the uppercase S self versus the lowercase one or not can really become a mirror for younger generations and whether we intentionally or accidentally mirror something that, you know, I don't know. It's just interesting. I'm not sure if you see what I'm saying, but I do.

[00:37:15] And I think we've got to, you know, I said about looking at what you said, how do we, how do we do this? How do we thrive with that? Yeah. And I said, well, find somebody that's ahead of us on the journey. Yeah. So that's it. Yeah. So you give, but then we give back, right? So we learn there's people ahead of us on the journey and there's people behind us on the journey and we, we give back. Right. So we keep on, we keep on moving.

[00:37:45] Um, we, we keep on moving along on our own learning journey. Yes. And then we help others and like, we, we, we learn from people, uh, above us on the community and we give back to people behind us. Exactly. And I guess what I'm, I, when I'm thinking about starving right now and so I'm not looking in the camera because I'm just trying to focus on what you're saying. So I'm thinking and I'm quite visual. So if I look at that. You are very visual.

[00:38:16] If you ever meet Jen, right? Don't wave your hands around cause she won't look at your face. She'll just look at your hands waving. I saw you doing that. So you can tell somebody, somebody's visual. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. I find it distracting actually to look at people when I'm, we're really trying to listen hard to what they're saying. Mm. So that's why, that's why I'm looking a bit more at the sky. Okay. Just so you know. Um, and, um, so, but I think that's a good question.

[00:38:45] You know, I was thinking about on the, on the thriving aspect for adoptees. I've really struggled in my life with self articulation as an adoptive person. And when you say we are the space I paused and Simon and I sort of exchanged glances here because I, I was, I was just to be honest, I was struggling with that. Simon, I was thinking, how are we the space?

[00:39:08] And I think for me personally, I, I feel sometimes a cloud of confusion, um, about what kind of is, if, if we're the space, if I'm the space, if you're the space, what kind of a space are we, because I think for me, that legacy confidence that I was talking about earlier, it's, um, it's not understanding how, how do I occupy space when so much of the world around us in

[00:39:36] England, for example, so many of the legacies of, um, the Royal family or how we inherit things, how we inherit lands, um, names, the, the, the biological lineage is so highly valued. And so when you don't have access, uh, I mean, I think you've been, you've reconnected. Yes. Um, some of your family or no. Oh, no. Okay. To an extent, um, I've spoken to a cousin a couple of times. Okay.

[00:40:06] I've spoken to one cousin once, twice, another cousin once. I got blown out. Um, I, to, to go away by my biological father. Okay. I've had a letter from, I've had a couple of letters in Christmas cards from my biological uncle. Oh, wow. Okay. And that's the extent of it. Okay. Well, for me, that's enormous because I haven't had anything. You haven't had anything done. I know.

[00:40:32] So to me, that's just like, wow, that's a wealth of, from my perspective, that's a wealth of experience. It's all relative. Yeah. Yeah. It's all relative. Exactly. Exactly. So, um, but I was just thinking, you know, wow. If, if I, if I knew, okay, this is where I came from and I had, um, this is my sort of, um, legacy. If the legacy of the space in which my, my biological family occupied the world, then

[00:41:00] I felt like I might understand how to feel more confident because everything about relationships is, um, you know, it's so contextual. Um, if I know, um, if I know, for example, that I'm meeting the queen or king of England and I understand their legacy and their, where they come from and that long, long history, um, of how far back they can trace their family.

[00:41:26] I mean, that I feel like I would be so incredibly, um, legacy confident and legacy rich in my knowledge. Um, versus if, if you don't know anything, how do you position yourself? And if you don't know how to position yourself, then how do, how do you articulate or, or take space or where, where is my space? And, um, I, I'm just brainstorming out loud right now about it. And I think it creates a brainstorm and it isn't, it's the opposite.

[00:41:55] It's the opposite of that calm, confident space, isn't it? You know, I was talking about, um, overthinking, right? So I've got my own sorts of overthinking and my overthinking is different to your overthinking. What kind of overthinking do you have? Uh, how can I get more people to listen to the podcast? How can I get more people to, how can I get more people to come on the podcast?

[00:42:23] How can I get more people to buy into the Thrive course for adoption agencies? Um, have I spoken to that person? Okay. What, why didn't that person email me back? Um, when am I going to the pub tonight? When's my wife going to come back? You know, all these things. Oh, okay. Okay. I understand what you're saying. Well, okay. So back, back onto the, the Thriveean topic then. So if we bring it back in, do you want to ask me anything else about Thriveean or talk

[00:42:53] about anything else? I would say that, I would say that when I'm overthinking, um, there's overthinking and then there's being cheesed off with overthinking. Right? So you've got thinking. Uh, I've said this a couple of times. I got it from a guy called Michael Neal over in the States. Um, it, you know, we've got thinking and then we've got thinking about thinking. Okay. And it just lays on top of it.

[00:43:18] It lays on, for me, it lays on top of itself and I become a more on, a moron. I have more on my mind. Okay. Right? And then I try and think my way out of that. Right. Which only adds more thinking. Yes. Yes. Okay. I understand. Uh, and then I think, well, maybe I'd better, um, put some music on or, um, fiddle with Facebook

[00:43:47] or go for a swim or walk the dog or, I don't know. Mm-hmm. Or, um, step back from it. Step, step back. Right. Um. And slow down again. Step back. Yeah. So step back from the, the, the weather guy that's obsessed with the clouds of thoughts and to, to the sky guy who is not bothered by the thoughts.

[00:44:17] Right. That go in and out. Right. Okay. I see what you mean. Yes. You're in a different, very different space than the last chat that we had about a year ago. I think, I feel like, because what, well, what do you think? Or. I don't know. I will. I just, cause I haven't spoken with you for a while. So I, I feel like you're just energetically quite different, um, in this space that you're where you are and on your journey. So this is really fascinating.

[00:44:45] And you know, sometimes when you don't see someone regularly, you can, it really jumps out at you more quickly when you feel a shift in them versus if you're with them every single day, you might not notice as easily. Right. So, uh, a mentor of mine back in the day used to say, it's hard to see the picture when we're in the frame. It's hard to see the picture when we're in the frame. I love that.

[00:45:10] So, yeah, we don't, we don't see our, we don't see change. Our own change that it becomes, it becomes clear to us on a, in, in, in little moments. Yeah. Right. So I had one this week in the, in the swimming pool. I just, I just felt stronger.

[00:45:38] So I felt less bothered about being, um, the pool was quite busy. So the water's quite choppy and which means you can't get a smooth line through the water. You know, your head, your body's bobbling up and down. Yeah. Uh, I was talking to, I've been, I haven't told you about this.

[00:46:02] Um, I've been seeing a somatic experience, a woman, um, therapist kind of, for almost a year now, every month or so. And I was talking to her this about, I was talking to her about this sort of stuff on Monday and then on Wednesday when I was in the swimming pool, I just felt, I felt stronger somehow. Yeah. I felt stronger. Okay.

[00:46:29] Um, but going back to, because of the thriving topic again, I'm trying to stand your thriving topic. Can I just hold up, just hold a minute. Just, I'm just going to pause ladies and gentlemen. Just hold. Sorry about that ladies and gentlemen. Um, yeah. Where were we? Uh, so you were, you were talking about your mentor. Oh yeah. The somatic experience. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to see the picture one in the frame. Yeah. So, uh, I just noticed it. Um, I noticed on Wednesday, I just felt stronger.

[00:46:58] I felt, I felt less flustered in the water. I felt stronger. Um, and I think it's down to some of the stuff that I, that I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I explored that with Blanche, the somatic experience earlier Monday, and then I saw it for myself. Right. So I think our, our change, it's hard to see the picture when we're in the frame, but every now and again, we get a glimpse of our change.

[00:47:29] I love that. I'm really going to remember that and think about that. And he's, that guy's the reason that. Um, uh, I'm doing the podcast actually. It's a, his something, some things that he said to me years ago, led, led me to where we are today. Really? Wow. Okay. Yeah. Hmm. I'm supposed to be interviewing you. I'm helping too. No, no, no.

[00:47:55] And actually in the middle of you talking, I just had to say, I noticed your teddy. Oh yeah. Yeah. That's a special story. Right. Being on the teddy. Yeah. Yeah. So I, and suddenly I just felt so moved and thinking about thriving and resiliency and thinking about having that foundation of those connection, calm. And what was your other seed? Confidence. Yeah.

[00:48:25] And there's four of us. Oh, four others. Right. The seven C's. Yeah. Not the seven C's I say, the seven C's of the world. No, the seven reticies. Right. So, um, yeah, just, and I think for, for thriving, tapping into our sense of roots, wherever they are. And, um, I feel like the teddy is so symbolic. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Yeah.

[00:48:55] And so I, I just felt so moved seeing your teddy. You talked about blooming. Blooming your best. Blooming your best. You were planted. Yes. I used to always say that when I gave talks, adoption talks about how do we bloom our best in, in a different part of the world or a different context.

[00:49:23] So what, one of the things that we're doing some webinars coming up and, uh, we, we, uh, a flower was a potential graphic. I was doing some graphics, uh, and when you say blooming, right. So I think about flowers. Yes. Um, I remember as a kid, you guys call it blacktop. We call it tarmac, right? So it's the stuff on roads. Okay. Yeah.

[00:49:54] Um, I remember. Or concrete. Or concrete. Well, yeah. Asphalt. Asphalt is the black stuff. Yeah. Concrete's the white stuff. Oh, I guess you're right. Yeah. So, um, the black stuff anyway. Okay. Uh, I remember we had some black stuff out in front of our house and when my mom and my dad part of their cars. And I remember seeing a flower had broken through the asphalt.

[00:50:21] So you've got this really big, heavy, smelly building material that weighs tons and tons. Right. And then you've got this tiny little dainty flower and the flower has somehow got through. Right. Like a thought of this. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible. Yeah.

[00:50:50] And that's, that flower didn't go on a resilience course, did it? Right. It just, its resilience was innate. Mm-hmm. And it couldn't see its own resilience because it's, it's a flower. It's not a person. And didn't have a mirror either, did it? Right. Didn't have a mirror to hold up and say, look, how haven't I grown? Right. I mean, am I riffing on this? Right.

[00:51:20] So yeah, it's hard to see the, it's hard to see the picture when we're in the frame. Right. And it's very hard for a, for a, um, a flower to see its own beauty because it hasn't got a mirror. It doesn't have any eyes. It just is. It just is. But it just is resilient. Mm-hmm. It's determined. It's determined. It's determined. It's determined. It's strong. And, but it's just doing its thing. Right.

[00:51:49] It's in its nature to grow. I love that image. Yeah. So we should all be like that flower. We should. Or we could be. We could all be like that. Well, uh, yeah, it would be about, it's a seeing thing rather than a strengthening thing. Do you know what I mean? It's a seeing thing, not a strengthening thing. In terms of perspective? Like, yes. Seeing as in perspective. Yeah. Seeing and perspective.

[00:52:19] It's about, it's about the flowers perspective in it. Or it's about the flowers nature. Right. Yeah. So where, okay. So where are you going with all this thriving? This is fascinating. Where, where are we going? Well, just, I mean. It's on a thriving journey. It's our, it's our, it's our, it's our process. It's our, it's our, uh, it's our process. It's our destination.

[00:52:47] It's our, it's our essence. Isn't it? It's our. Yeah. It's built in. Right. It's built in, but we don't see it. Right. So we're exploring what thriving means. Mm hmm. We're, we're, so when I talk to people about coming on the podcast before they come on

[00:53:10] the podcast, I say it, this is about our learnings, your learnings, catalyzing learnings in the listeners. Okay. So we're, we're, we're passing stuff out. We're passing stuff down. Sometimes I'm learning from you. Sometimes you're learning from me. Sometimes I'm learning from the listeners.

[00:53:37] I'm sometimes learning from, you know, when they give me feedback, um, when I get feedback on my Facebook or ever, or get an email. Sometimes I'm learning, I'm learning from them. I'm learning from mentors that I have authors that I listened to educators that I listened to. And sometimes I, sometimes I'm the one doing the sharing, but I'm sharing. I'm sharing what we have learned. Yeah. I love it.

[00:54:06] And I, I have to say too, I think about since I'm, since I'm from California, I'm, when you talk about thriving, I'm thinking about the fires in LA, um, and, uh, and recently, and just thinking about how for me, thriving goes hand in hand with how we respond to adversity a lot of time. And just thinking about, um, for example, my brother had to evacuate, um, all the people who lost their homes.

[00:54:35] And when I was in high school, we had to evacuate, uh, our house. And I just remember that terrible feeling of driving back into Laguna beach in California and not knowing if we had a house that was still standing when we, um, got back in. And, and, and how, yeah, how does the community thrive when, when it's lost so much of, uh, you know, so many of my neighbors lost their homes, my friends.

[00:55:04] And that I just remember, um, in the local Laguna beach newspaper, it listed every single family in Laguna beach who lost their homes during the fires. And I was in high school at the time. And I saw that list of names and I just remember bursting into tears. And I could recognize so many people on the list and some of them I knew had lost their homes and others I hadn't spoken with yet. And I didn't realize, you know, my teacher lost her home.

[00:55:32] Um, uh, this might, one of my coaches, um, some of my piano, um, friends. And, and, um, and it was just, yeah, I just remember tears coming down my face and thinking how, what are we going to do now? Um, what, what do we do now? And of course, what do you do now? It's like the flower. Well, you rebuild and you get back up and, um, and you become stronger than ever. And for me, thriving is about, that's why I was talking about transformation.

[00:56:01] How does, how did that fire or the fires in California right now? Um, the, the fire and instant, you can lose everything. I mean, literally everything, your house, everything, all the memories in there. And now, thankfully my younger friends said to me, well, I wouldn't lose everything now because all of the photos of me are on, um, are on my iPhone are on the cloud. So they said that we wouldn't lose the photos and I was like, well, thank you, except for my baby photos. And I was like, okay, thank you for the reminder.

[00:56:30] So yeah. Yeah. Well, we do, we just, how do we do it? We just take the next step. Yeah, exactly. And, and to have, but sometimes I can take a lot of courage. So, you know, it can, you've got no choice, have you? I guess so. Yeah. Well, you're going to put, you've got, well, in the short term, I guess you, you go and stay with some people. And friends. Yes. I mean, we're, we're assuming that we've made it through the fire. Right. We, we're assuming that we haven't died in the fire. Right.

[00:56:59] That would be the scary bit to me. Like, am I going to get, am I going to get out of this place? Mm-hmm. Am I going to get out of there alive? Right. So you've got like, so if you get out of there alive, you know, like, it's like when you have a, uh, car crash. Mm-hmm. You know, I, I'm not a very good driver. I've written off. Do you call that, do you use that word in, in, in, in the States? Written off? Um, maybe not. Okay.

[00:57:28] So, um, the, if, if I have a 5,000 pound car and I have an accident and the, and I had, the car is insured. Right. And it's 10,000 pounds to repair the car. Mm-hmm. The insurance company will write the car off. Oh, oh, I see. Because the damage is worth more than the, the, the, the, the repairs are more expensive than the worth of the car. Oh, right. Okay.

[00:57:57] So I've, I've written off, uh, three. How many cars are you? Yeah. Three. So I'm not, I'm not a very good driver. Okay. Or I drive too fast or whatever it is. Oh, okay. Um, and, uh, so, you know, like when I crashed the car, um, I rang my dad or whatever. And she, he said, I crashed the car and she, he said, well, are you okay? Right. That, uh, you know, you, you can, you can replace metal.

[00:58:27] You can't replace that. Right. That sort of thing. So, you know, if you've, if in the fires, I'd be thinking, well, I got out there alive. It's more important. My life is more important than my house. Right. I've got all my phone, all my, uh, images, uh, uploaded to the iCloud, whatever. I mean, that's, it's, it's, yeah, it's a different thing. Yeah. I guess, I guess in a way I, I, what I was thinking about when you said, well, you have no choice.

[00:58:53] I just remember some of my neighbors, um, and going, doing tours of the remainders of their home. And it would be sort of just the concrete slab of foundation and maybe a chimney and you know, some rubble. And I went on so many tours of these homes and they would show us what they lost. And, and, um, and then I remember their various responses. I mean, they all lost their homes in the same town to the same fires and, and some of them, they, they just couldn't deal with it.

[00:59:23] Actually, they packed it in. They, they left Laguna beach. They, they maybe started to try to rebuild their house. And then some of them were very upset because they're maybe their neighbors weren't super supportive about all the noise that comes with a new house build and other ones. They were just really, they were really thriving. They were really taking it. So it was interesting to see how they all responded differently. Yeah. We all respond differently. Yeah. So yeah. And we all, I guess we all thrive differently in a different way. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:59:53] We have to find our own, what thriving means to us. Yeah, exactly. So. And when Simon is talking wisdom and when he's talking stuff that we don't believe to be wisdom. Right. That's, I think that's a good point. Point to a good place to bring it in. Okay. Thanks. Thanks Jen. Have you got anything else to share that you want? That I'm not assuming. Um, I'm thriving.

[01:00:20] Well, I guess I would just say that for each and every one of your listeners around the world, I would say that I'm, I'm sending you positive energy and know that if anyone's feeling alone on their thriving journey, that you're not alone, that we're all with you. And we're all hoping and wishing for the best for you.

[01:00:47] And, and, um, yeah, we're all with you in spirit on this journey. That's lovely. Thanks Jen. Thanks listeners. Thank you, Simon. And we'll speak to you again very soon. Take care. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you.