Curiosity and Connection With David Cross

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by David Cross. Looking forward to this, our second conversation for the pod, babe. Me too. I'm looking forward to it also, Simon. So when we spoke last time you said that you were a foster kid, did you age out? Did you get adopted? How did that happen?

[00:00:26] Yeah, I was... So real briefly, my story is my parents both had a role in World War II and they both, like many people who had those experiences, they developed alcoholism after returning and they lost custody of me.

[00:00:51] And I started, I went, first went into a county home, which was not a nice place at all. And then I bounced around my family a little bit, you know, I had several family members who tried and, but we just weren't able to do it. And then my grandmother sent me to a summer camp and the man who was the camp, the director of the camp, the program director, learned my story and his family took me in.

[00:01:20] But it was an informal arrangement with my grandmother. And so I was never, there were never caseworkers involved. The state was never involved. They just took me in and raised me. And when I graduated from high school, unfortunately, that family split up about the same time. And so when I graduated from high school, I kind of was on my own for the most part.

[00:01:48] So, and I, you know, I found a way to get through college and, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Good on you. What do you think it was that helped you get through college? Because it sounded like a tricky time, right? Yeah, it was tricky. It's interesting. I did a, so this, I continued.

[00:02:12] So my, my, my, my dad, the, or I call him my foster dad, although technically it wasn't a foster arrangement. It was, you know, but he was, he continued being the director of the camp. And he was, he was, he was an extraordinary individual in a lot of ways. And he was the program director for this camp. And so I was, I grew up in this summer camp.

[00:02:40] So I was a camper, then I washed dishes in the kitchen, and then I was a counselor. And then I, I ran their counselor and training program. So I literally grew up there, met my wife there. She worked at the camp also. And, but that community of men, it was a, was, it was an extraordinarily well-run camp.

[00:03:07] And that community of men, I think had a huge role in my development. And I think the other thing is, is that one of the things I keep going back to more recently is we lived in a small town in the central valley of California, Sanger. And I look back at the, my high school experience, and it was extraordinary.

[00:03:30] And I had a, I had a counselor there, who really is, I mean, I was, I was gifted, you know, intellectually. So I, and you know, although it didn't always translate into gifted academics, but, so they were, they were some, the teachers were sometimes frustrated with me. I can still remember that.

[00:03:56] Um, but he, he's the one that really got me on the college course. And then both of my parents, my, my foster parents had gone to college. And my mother's family in particular was very college oriented. So I had a lot of, you know, influences that were pointing me in the college direction. Yeah.

[00:04:19] And fortunately then, I mean, you could go to, in California, you could go to college, uh, you know, almost for free. So, I mean, there was, there was, there was a lot of support and, you know, and, and this is one of the things I think that our country is, I'm gonna get a little political here is, is, is missing. And now is, is, is it, it's so hard for young people to get, you know, to go to college now.

[00:04:48] Um, but back then it was, it was, it was, it was, there was a lot more support. Yeah. Yeah. So the, the community of, of the camp. Yeah. And so I started to say, I did this, I did this presentation that I, I've given a number of times on authoritative communities. And it's actually a concept that I don't, I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but.

[00:05:16] Uh, around, uh, right at the beginning of the millennium. Um, there was a commission put together, uh, uh, for, uh, that focused on the wellbeing of children. And it was supported by kind of a blue ribbon group of organizations. The why was one of them.

[00:05:40] And, uh, they, um, and they got together a bunch of folks who were, you know, uh, you know, involved in, invested in children's wellbeing. And they came up with this notion of an authoritative community. What kids needed was an authoritative community.

[00:06:02] And basically from the standpoint of TBRI, it meant that there should be lots of opportunities for connection. And lots of opportunities to be involved. And lots, you know, now we've, you know, another kind of when sometimes people talk about paces, are you familiar with that? Or are you, are you folks familiar with the paces idea?

[00:06:28] Uh, so when I think about paces, I actually went to aces. Um, but no. Yeah. So there's this notion. So there's aces adverse childhood experiences. And I mean, just to kind of go back to my childhood. Um, my aces score, I think is it's, it's, it's high. It's right. It's around eight, I think.

[00:06:53] Big, but that's mainly for the first six years of my life. From the time I was six until I graduated from high school, I had, I had a number of more positive, very positive. And my paces score is 10. And it's things, you know, it's, you know, thing, a lot of it has to do with connection.

[00:07:17] Um, but this notion of an authoritative community really is this idea that the whole community has a responsibility for, you know, caring for a child. And it's a really powerful notion. And, and I'm, and I'm a little sad that it didn't get more traction. Um, I think in this country. Very, anyway, that's another story. So, yeah. Okay.

[00:07:45] So, um, just to join some dots, uh, listeners, if you haven't heard, um, if you haven't heard David's previous interview. So that was on the back of, uh, the work you did, uh, with the TBRI. So with TBRI, which is a parenting approach. Would that be a, well, it's, it's a caregiving approach.

[00:08:06] So real briefly, the history of TBRI is, is, um, one of my grad students, Karen, Karen Purvis, who became Dr. Karen Purvis, was approached by a woman to do a summer. And there was a summer camp for internationally adopted kids. And this was in 1999.

[00:08:27] And, uh, in, in the U S there were a fairly large number of families that had adopted kids internationally, you know, once, you know, from Romania and Ukraine and so on, where kids had been institutionalized. And a lot of the families were, were struggling. And so, and actually the original idea of the camp was just respite for the parents, but anyway, it turned out the campus therapeutic.

[00:08:53] And it turned out that it was one of the very few things that was therapeutic for these kids. And out of that grew an intervention called trust-based relational intervention or TBRI.

[00:09:06] And now, so we started with adoptive families, but it, we, it, it, it's, I mean, we, it's now being used with inmates in, in juvenile detention, in adult prisons. It's, and we're, and, and actually I'm involved now, and we're, we're, we're, we're using the TBRI principles to train law enforcement. Yeah, I was going to say, it's the police you mentioned last time, yeah.

[00:09:35] To, to heal themselves and, you know, and, and, and interact with citizens in a more caring way. So, yeah, yeah. So, looking back on all that, all that incredibly rich experience, what does, what does thriving mean to you now, David? Great question, Simon.

[00:10:07] I think, I think there's, I think there's, you're probably, I'm sure you're aware. Um, because thriving is your, your thing. I think there's a lot of ways to think about thriving, but I, I, the first thing that came to mind was, was, can a person experience joy? Are they experiencing some joy in their life?

[00:10:34] And, and I think, I, I, I know for me, a peak experience is when I see a child just gleeful, just joyful. That, but then the second thing that came to mind was, um, I was thinking about Richard Schwartz's, the internal family systems.

[00:11:02] And he's got, and he's got, and I think you're aware of it because we talked about, I think, is it seven C's? Seven C's, yeah. Yeah, seven C's. And, um, and, and, and I, and I was, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've really, it's really stuck with me how he says he thinks the most important of those C's is curiosity.

[00:11:27] And, and, and I think, I think a person who's, I think a curious person is going to be a thriving person. I think, I just think there's so much about curiosity that's important to the wellbeing of people. So that's, you know, that's how I answer that. As you say, so out of the seven, you think you would rate that the top one? Would you? Or yeah. And I think it's almost like a pyramid.

[00:11:56] It's almost like Maslow's pyramid when you look at the C's and, and I think curiosity is at the top. Yeah. And it, you know, it depends on the others, you know, but curiosity is yeah. Yeah. Is it's yeah. Cause. Why? Oh, that's, that's a low blow. Well, I've gone.

[00:12:24] I've got my own idea, but I, you know, sometimes I think that I should really ask the interviewee the questions, right? Uh huh. I think, um, I think, you know, it's, it's hard. Good God. Why?

[00:12:42] Um, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I have to really think about that, but here's one answer. One of the things that comes to mind, there's this quote, cause if your curiosity, if you look at, um, Ellen Langer's measure, her, she has a little questionnaire about mindfulness.

[00:13:12] And one, and we give it to the officers when we train. And the point is, is that there's so much in there that's about curiosity and creativity. And, um, and what Ellen Langer says, there's this quote of hers that I love. She says, mindfulness is all you need. It's the key to everything.

[00:13:38] And I think that, you know, I think mindfulness and curiosity go hand in hand. Good. Yeah. So, and you, how does that link in? Cause before we hit the record button, you were talking about, um, distracting yourself from politics by gardening this weekend. Um, did the two things, did all those things connect for you or, or no? I know. Yeah, that's, that's interesting.

[00:14:04] I, um, uh, it, it does connect because what I think one of the things, cause I mentioned to you that my wife and I were, we spent a good part of our weekend gardening or at the nursery.

[00:14:19] And, um, uh, and, and I think one of the things that happens when we're gardening, I mean, there's the whole thing about being out there and using your body and all that. But there's also this thing is you wonder, well, why did that plant not make it? You know, and, and, you know, you, you're, you start, you start inquiring about the living things in your garden.

[00:14:48] And, you know, why, you know, where is that bird going to, where are those birds going to nest? Cause we have finches and we have mockingbirds and, you know, and so on. So it, it becomes, you become inquisitive. Yeah. Did I answer your question? Yeah. Yeah. You did. Lovely in a lovely fashion. Um, and I, for me, I thought you were going to say connection.

[00:15:13] Cause that's one of Dick Schwartz is seven, seven, you know, actually, now that you say that Simon, it's almost like, you know, real connection is about curiosity. Well, I mean, connecting to new ideas, maybe. Is that kind of what you mean? Well, what I'm thinking of is if you're connected to your child in this mindful way that, you know, Richard Schwartz talks about. Then, and we talk about TBRI.

[00:15:44] You're curious about what's my child feeling right now, or why are they doing that or what's going on?

[00:15:52] Um, I remember, you know, one, you know, one of our experiences, harder experiences as a parent was our son is still is and was very, he was, um, more reserved. He was not, he was, he was, he was, I guess he, I guess he was, he's an introvert on the, more on the introverted end of the scale.

[00:16:22] And when he got into high school, it got to be really hard to talk to get him to talk to us. And so I started thinking about it and looking into, and I don't know if I actually did some research, but where I landed was, um, you know, the question was, you know, how do you, how do we, how are we going to, how are we going to get him to open up to us?

[00:16:45] And where I landed or where we landed was, I realized we were real busy and he probably was at, he was probably reaching out to us and we, there were times when we didn't respond. And so what I purposed to do was anytime he wants to talk, I'm going to put down whatever I'm doing and I'm going to listen and just listen.

[00:17:13] And what gradually happened over time, over, you know, months was he came and talked more, you know, we had more and more common conversation. Yeah. So my point is the connection was deepened, but it was deepened through a kind of curiosity about how are we going, you know, what's going on in his mind and how are we going to meet his needs in the TBRI lingo?

[00:17:41] Um, cause in TBRI, we talk about seeing the need and in, in, in meeting the need and seeing the need is about curiosity. Yeah. I can see them looping together, like the curiosity, building the connection and like a self-fulfilling loop. Um, and it, it, it, isn't it interested that, you know, when you said paces, I went to aces and, you know, adverse rather than positive.

[00:18:11] Right. But, but we often talk about, uh, vicious, vicious circles. We talk less about virtuous circles, such as this one. And we talk, um, and we talk far more about post-traumatic stress disorder than we do about post-traumatic growth.

[00:18:33] Um, the, the, the, the newspapers are, uh, basically trying to stare the bejesus out of us, um, with this focus that they have on negativity. I saw, uh, I say something about that before you go on. Yeah, sure. Yeah, of course. Your, your, your phrase, uh, virtuous cycle.

[00:18:54] Um, one of the things we talk about, cause as part of the growth, so, so, uh, Dr. Purvis, I mean, we, when we, as time went by, there was more and more interest in demand for our work. And as part of meeting that demand, we created what is now called the Karen Purvis Institute of Child Development.

[00:19:18] And, um, and as we became more sophisticated, we started not only training people in TBRI, but training in how to implement trauma-informed programs. And one of the things we talk about in that implementation training is what we call virtuous cascades. How just one thing knocks on to another, you know, if, if, and you, if you're doing.

[00:19:47] Um, things, uh, I want to say, right. I don't, I mean, right. And, uh, if you're, if you're doing, if, if you're coming up with good solutions, they're going to foster other good solutions. And, um, and sometimes those are cycles, but they're not always cycles. Sometimes they're knock-ons. I'm trying to talk like a British person. So, um, I appreciate that. I played rugby. So, you know, I know what a knock-on is.

[00:20:17] Oh yeah. Of course. Oh, that's what you mean. The knock-on. Okay, cool. Um, the, uh, the, the other thing about curiosity, going back to that is like what leapt out for me was curiosity about our own beliefs. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, like if you, you know, I, I think if you are a curious person and mindful, you know, in a curious way, yeah.

[00:20:47] You'll, you might say something or do something and then you'll step back and go, where did that come from? Yeah. And particularly those of us that have quirky histories, then, you know, that, you know, that's, yeah. Yeah. One of my fascinations, uh, oh, well, before I, before I do, do that, I just want to tell you why I said what I did, right?

[00:21:12] Because I guess I'm, I'm, I'm hoping to focus on you as an individual, um, rather than the, rather than the professional and the parenting kind of side. That, that's one of the reasons I talked about the curiosity and the beliefs. I'm trying to get a little bit under, under that, um, under your own, your own stuff.

[00:21:36] One of my absolute fascinations with Dick Schwartz and in his internal family systems is that he calls it a psycho-spiritual approach. Have you heard him say that? Yeah. And that is a really big deal for me. Um, is it, how big of a deal is it for you? It's a very big deal.

[00:22:05] Yeah, I have, yes. Yeah. I don't know where you want to go with that, but yeah, no, I agree. It's a big deal for me too. It's a big deal. And I don't see how it, in, in, in my worldview, I don't see how it could be any other way. Okay. So I'm going to ask the why question again then. So why is it a big deal? Yeah. So, um, and then, you know, in actually what gets interesting because it comes back to curiosity because,

[00:22:32] um, I'll just, so, um, uh, what I'll, what I'll do is I'll tell you a little bit about my history and then I'll tell you about two of my really good friends.

[00:22:47] Um, the, my history was, I was, you know, I went, the foster family, I, you know, I grew up in, um, attended Methodist church and, and we're pretty active. So I had a, you know, a, you know, a kind of a traditional Protestant upbringing.

[00:23:11] Um, and then I went off to college and I had this professor, Paul Wienpaugh at the university of California, Santa Barbara, who introduced me to Spinoza. That he had actually written a book about Spinoza. Spinoza. And that was, um, that was a pivot in my life. That was completely transformational. I mean, and it was, you know, I was 18.

[00:23:42] My mind was seeking that kind of thing. And it, it completely, and it's, it, you know, it, it, it was completely transformational. Um, and, um, and I, you know, and so, um, so Spinoza was huge for me. I've got a bus, I've got a little statue of Spinoza on my dresser drawers.

[00:24:12] And then. What, what was it about Spinoza? Or what, what did, what, what was the pivotal insight from Spinoza? Well, I think, uh, I mean, that goes on and I could, you know, we could talk forever about that, but I'll say two things about that. One is Paul Wienpaugh. He was the chair of the philosophy department at, uh, UC Santa Barbara.

[00:24:36] And he's a little bit of a controversial character because he was not a traditional, um, philosopher. The, you know, the traditional philosophy is I was, I was a philosophy major before I became a psych major. You know, is it the traditional philosophy in the West anyway, is, is pretty analytical.

[00:24:58] And that's not, he, Paul had actually, uh, spent time in Japan training and he was, I don't know, or dame's not the right word, but whatever the term is as a Zen Buddhist monk. So he was, he's, he's, he's wrote two books, one about Zen and one about Spinoza.

[00:25:24] And his take was, you can't understand, you can't understand Spinoza unless you understand Zen, uh, Zen. So, um, the two are fused and they're fused in my mind. Yeah. And so a lot of my spirituality comes from that or my worldview comes from that.

[00:25:49] And, um, so, and, uh, so anyway, so that's one thing. And the, um, and, and then partly I think because of that, um, I started a book. I actually, I started the book about the time we started the work with TBRI, but then the work with TBRI became so demanding.

[00:26:14] I put the book down and I haven't had a chance yet to get back to it, but it's, it's about, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, it's, uh, it, uh, I hope to, I hope to get back to it pretty quick here.

[00:26:29] Um, it's called The Strongest Rope, but it's about, it sort of blends together the complexity sciences, um, and then Eastern philosophy, Taoism, Zen, uh, the art of war. And, uh, into basically a philosophy of living, I guess you might call it. So anyway, yeah. Wow. Um, so that's, yeah.

[00:26:59] So I, you know, that that's, but then, okay. So I think, let me switch gears and talk a little bit about two friends. So when Karen was, we lost Karen when to breast cancer, um, several years ago, but before then she was raised as a Baptist and her, her husband, who she was separated from her deck ended up was, was a minister.

[00:27:20] So she had a very traditional Baptist upbringing and, but had in, I think, in my view, had kept her roots in that, but she had kind of stepped beyond that. And so we discussed, and then she had a roommate who was Hindu.

[00:27:44] And so we had, we had some interesting conversations and then one of my best friends now he's an, he's a medical doctor and he would have had a, had a, had a staunch Baptist upbringing. And, and, but we, we've read Spinoza together and, um, and, and he has enriched, we've read and we enrich each other in, I think really important ways. So, yeah.

[00:28:14] So that's a taste of it. Yeah. Okay. So the strongest rope then the book that you've been, that's been on the back burner for the last 20, 20, 25 years. Yeah. Yeah. A long time, but you know, I went back and actually kind of read, read it again, not too long ago, and it still feels pretty fresh to me. So I, you know.

[00:28:37] So what, um, what can you share from the, from the book that still feels fresh to you that kind of relates to this thriving topic? Okay. Um, wow. Wow. Okay. Well, first of all, what the, um, there are, there are, yeah.

[00:29:05] So, um, there are three in, I think, I think it's generally accepted that there's three core Taoist texts. One's the Tao Te Ching. Yeah. Which I think most people, or many people have heard of that. Yeah. And then there's the art of war or the Bing Fa, which I think a lot of people have heard of. Uh, and then, uh, the third one, which is not quite as well known is the Wangza.

[00:29:35] The Wangza of the three is the most profound. It's, it's, um, and there's just a marvel. If, if, if, if you're interested in it, I'll send you a paper. It's a marvelous paper about, uh, that, that, that worldview.

[00:29:52] But anyway, in the, in, in, I've read multiple and studied multiple, um, you know, translations of each of those.

[00:30:08] In one of the translations of the art of war, the translator says that he, he, he, in his, you know, the little thing at the beginning of the book, he quotes from Ecclesiastes about how, um, a three, a rope with three strands is stronger.

[00:30:31] And it's a metaphor for, if we, for, if, if you have a rope with a single strand, it can break easily. Two strands is better. Three is best of all. It's really, it's a metaphor for stick, for working together to solve problems. Okay. We're stronger if we can, if we're connected and, um, and he used it.

[00:30:53] The reason he drew upon that metaphor for the, for the, the art of war was that there are so many really powerful principles that are articulated in the art of war, that the whole thing together is the strongest rope. Yeah.

[00:31:14] And one of those principles and, and, and what kind of, in a, um, in a way, what got me kind of got me going on it was, well, that's not true actually. But anyway, one of the things I saw in it was a lot of what were the reason TBRI works is, is the principles are articulated in the art of war.

[00:31:42] For example, um, it, Sunza says, he's really clear that fighting is a last resort. So arguing, coercing is, is counterproductive in the long run. And, you know, a lot of people think that the, you know, there's this movie, the art of war, which is, which just drives me crazy.

[00:32:09] Cause it's all about fighting and, you know, and it's, you know, it's, it's all, I couldn't watch it. It was horrible. That's not what Sunza was about at all. He was about winning. And, um, and winning is an, in, in Sun Tzu's point of view is, uh, mostly about preserving the whole. And so you can translate it directly to a family.

[00:32:34] How, how am I as a parent going to preserve the whole that is my family? Well, fighting is, you know, sometimes we have to be strong and we have to do things that, you know, are hard, but. Usually the best route is to try to do something indirectly.

[00:32:54] So like, and there's just so many things, like, for example, um, uh, the whole idea of prevention, you can find that principle in the art of war. And so one of the strategies we taught parents was we had kids who were, who had, your food was such an issue because they didn't always have access to food.

[00:33:19] And so one of the strategies Karen would teach adoptive parents was to let a kid take, uh, like a granola bar and hold it, put it under their pillow. So they know they had food if they needed it, you know, then, um, but that's, you know, that's not confrontational.

[00:33:41] That's sort of what Sun Tzu would call an indirect approach that to non-confrontational approach that, um, yeah. And that's what Wendell Berry would call solving for pattern too. Yeah. Wow. So the, the strongest rope then is, is all about connection.

[00:34:05] It's, it starts with, um, it first, yeah. I mean, it's, it, it starts with the question it, it deals with, there are some, well, yes, uh, it's about more than connection.

[00:34:26] I mean, like say, for example, um, the first part of the book, and it kind of goes back to when we were talking about virtuous cycles and virtuous cascades. The first part of the book, the title, I think the, I think it's called how things work. And in Taoist philosophy, there's a, there's a concept. I'm not sure I'm going to say this correctly.

[00:34:56] Ziran. It's Z-I-R-A-N. And it's, it's an idea about how it, it, it has two aspects. One is about how, how in, in the, in the world, things are constantly flowing and the one, the, the present moment flows into the next moment, you know, and that's just going on and on and on.

[00:35:23] And there's a wonderful quote by great Gregory Bateson. And he says, we don't know enough about how the present flows into the future or something like that. And, um, but it's a very process oriented worldview.

[00:35:42] But then there's a, another version of another aspect of it, which is, which is very Zen-like, which is how can I be in the moment? And I think that I tell you, there's a story I share. Cause then, then that's really about presence being present, being fully there in the present moment.

[00:36:09] And there's a, there's a story that I love to share about a father who, I mean, I thought, I mean, this, the man, the person who told me the story was the father. He, he, he, he was, it was a couple had adopted, I think about a four-year-old boy and they were having a lot, there were a lot of struggles with him. He, the boy was melting down and they really didn't know how to, everything they were doing was seem to be making it worse.

[00:36:38] And he heard, this father told me, he heard Karen speak in Oklahoma. She just, I think she spoke at a church and then he came to a training in Fort Worth and I had a chance to talk to him. So often, much of what I learned was talking to people who had heard Karen and then told me how she changed their life and what she taught them, how that had changed their lives.

[00:37:03] And he, and he, he told me that what he used to do when this little guy was melting down was he would get in front of him and, and, and, and try to find out what was going on, asking him questions. And it just, it just made it worse.

[00:37:21] And after listening to Karen and I don't know what it was she said, but he, what he started doing was when this little guy would melt down, usually when he got melted down, the dad said he got on the floor and was either sitting and, you know, anyway. And so the father would sit down next to him, not look at him, but focus on his own breathing. He focused on himself and calming himself.

[00:37:50] And so he just sat quietly nearby, didn't look good at his son, didn't say anything to his son and just did deep breathing. And then what would happen was his son would begin to calm down. And when his son was ready, he would come over and get in his dad's lap. And then they, after a while longer of being just being together, connected, they could talk about it.

[00:38:20] But that's a great example of what the Taoists talk about when they talk about Zeran. And he says, I understand it. Now there's always this issue. You're talking about people who wrote 2000 years ago in a country on the other side of the world with a completely different culture than we have. So I always, I always feel like you have to take it with a grain of salt, whatever it is you think you understand.

[00:38:45] But yeah, today, I think today we talk about presence. Daniel Stern talks about presence. And I think it's, if you're present, you're in the flow with something Suzanne Mahaly also talks about too. Yeah.

[00:39:07] So what's coming up for me on that is that it was like a tuning fork, two tuning forks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good. I like that. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:19] So if the parent takes the breaths or the other person takes the breaths, slows it down, a deeper resonance and stays in that space,

[00:39:38] then eventually something calms within the kid because they go to our level, our energy level. And then you're into peace, you know, rather than trying to fight anger, fight feelings with logic.

[00:40:08] You know, why are you doing that? I don't know why you're doing that. You know, it just, it's just, I, I, I've seen it in the, no, I've heard it. I've heard it in the swimming pool when they, in the changing rooms and the kids having a meltdown in the cubicle with the parents. And I'm hearing it from, with the dad from the other side and the kids having a meltdown. And, and the, and the dad says, why are you having a meltdown?

[00:40:36] You know, and I'm, and I'm laughing to, to, to myself, you know, because it's about that, that tuning. And from that, I get to, I get to a bigger question about what, how can we, how come that works? Right.

[00:40:58] How come that works to, to physical entities that aren't touching each other, get, get to some point of, get to some point of peace. That's a great question. Which would be, you know, we're, we're one whole, you know, connection is at a physical level.

[00:41:24] Spiritual isn't, you're, you're talking about transformational. So transformational, one heard, one definition I've heard of transformation is, is beyond form, right? Beyond form, i.e. Like transport is beyond the port. Transform, transformation is beyond form. Right, right.

[00:41:46] So we've, on one level, dad and, dad and son are two different beings, two different human beings. On another level, they are connected and they are, they are, they are, they are one because as the French Jesuit guy said, we're not seven billion human experience having one human. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.

[00:42:15] We're not human beings having a spiritual experience with spiritual being or spirit, a spiritual being, one spiritual being, one whole spiritual being having seven billion different human experiences. So on, on the oneness, it is just whole.

[00:42:32] We, we are whole and that, that wholeness allows us to synchronize energy levels, anger levels, peace levels across.

[00:42:50] Yeah, one of the, for me, one of the, I guess, touchstones about this is a gal named Ruth Feldman. I think, I think she's in Israel. She's an ill, in academic and she's done a lot of the really good, more recent good work on attunement between young children and parents.

[00:43:20] And it's, it's pretty remarkable stuff. It's, you know, it's, it's clear. Yeah. That, you know, it, and I like your tuning for it met, you know, metaphor. It's, you know, it, there's, there's, yeah. Yeah. That, that coming into our, that coming to our level, we're leading.

[00:43:50] Yeah. We're leading. And, you know, I, I also, if you want to think about connection, I always think about, I think about disconnection and, and, and, and separate self and the, you know, the essence of. Yeah. The essence of, who was this? Who, who wrote 1984? Orwell. Orwell. Orwell. Orwell. Orwell talking about the. Oh, no, he won't be. Yeah. No, it wasn't Orwell.

[00:44:19] He did Brave New World. I probably, I always get them mixed up, so I'm not a reliable source. Yeah. Yeah. The essential, the essence of all these different religious traditions is the, what some people call the perennial philosophy. Which is based on oneness. And wholeness.

[00:44:46] And the, the apparent illusion of the separate self. And for me, this is goes, you know, we go back to curiosity about beliefs. Is our curiosity about the belief of who we are. Who we are, right? So are we, are we one spiritual being? Or are we, you know, you know, one spiritual being?

[00:45:15] Or, or, or part, or one, one thread of the three strongest ropes? Or are we a separate self? And feeling separate and alone and isolated and different and spare and, and scared and vulnerable and weak. And angry about all that. Right. Yeah. And it's, yeah.

[00:45:49] Let me, let me go back. I think that's really interesting. There's a thought I had. I'm going to rewind a little bit. So when I told you the story. About the father and the son. And you said there was one of the things you said. How was it? You posed a question. Was why did that work? Why were they able to connect?

[00:46:15] Why were they able to rediscover their oneness, if you will? And, and I think there's two ways to look at that. One is through in, in the training. And we talk in this, we get this idea from Dan Siegel. Which is the, you know, the difference. We talk about the upstairs brain, which is the cortical, the cortex, which is our rational thinking brain.

[00:46:42] And then the downstairs brain, which is our emotional brain. And when that little guy, one way to, when he's melting down, he's in the downstairs brain. He's flipped his lid in Dan Siegel's terms. And, but the dad's trying to talk to his upstairs brain, which isn't functional. So it's not going anywhere. When the dad focuses on his downstairs brain.

[00:47:12] And, and in calming his lid down. That can make the, that can allow for the connection to occur. So I think we, we have to calm. So one. It's feeling to feeling rather than feeling to logic. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, we, one time, one thing we talk about our training is, is when you have people, two people upset, you have amygdalas talking to amygdalas.

[00:47:39] And, and that requires a different kind of language than, and certainly not a verbal language for the most part. So that's sort of one way to think about that. And another way to think about it is we, we have what we call the TBRI mantra and it goes, stay calm no matter what. That's the first line. And, and that's basically what the father did.

[00:48:04] And so the second line is see the need behind the behavior, but you can't do that until you get connected until you both are calmed down or at least until you are, and then meet the need, find a way. So, but it starts with getting to calm or staying calm.

[00:48:30] And, and, and it's in those calm states or, or even joyous states. This is one of your, one of your colleagues. Well, you, one of the, the academics at the university of Edinburgh, I think he's retired now, Colin Trevartan.

[00:48:48] And one of the things he taught that one of the things I love about his work is he, he talks about the joy, the shared joy with a parent and a child. And, and that's a bridging experience, a connecting, you know, a very rich, a connecting experience. Yeah. Joy and connect the joy and connection.

[00:49:19] Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, yeah. And I, and I think that, you know. And wholeness and oneness rather than. Yeah. And, and, and, and it's always in the, in the context of experience. Yeah. It's, it's, it is an experience. It's not, it's not. It's a shared experience. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I, when I think about this, I think of it as.

[00:49:46] I can experience is like a bath rather than a handshake. Oh yeah. Oh, that's kind of, that's cool. It's emerging. It's, it's emerging. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:02] Like my, my most healing moment was a feeling of absolute oneness, wholeness, merging of selves into oneness with, with my birth mother. Reading, reading a letter that she'd written 40 years before, well, 50 years before I wrote it.

[00:50:31] And, um, 10 years, 10 years before, uh, sorry. Yeah. 10 years after she died. So it was oneness. It was, we were beyond four. She dead. She was dead. Yeah. Yeah. She was dead. Physically.

[00:51:01] She was, she, her human. How did you, how did you find the letter or how did you come up? How did you come? It was, it was through the inner stuff. No, it was in, in my adoption file. Oh, I didn't realize you were adopted. Yeah. Oh, wow. Simon. Holy smokes. Whoa. Wow. What a powerful experience.

[00:51:31] Yeah. Yeah. Oneness. Yeah. That's why the, this perennial, perennial philosophy of oneness is, is the big deal. Right. You know, like, um, so when I, when I think about psycho spiritual, okay. Uh, our psychology is a separate, but we are one. Right.

[00:52:00] Well, you know, um, go back to Paul Wienpaul, my philosophy professor in his, in his, um, Spinoza class. He tried to get, cause the, you know, Spinoza was called, had been, has been called the God intoxicated philosopher.

[00:52:26] Um, but what, uh, Wienpaul taught us or what he said, the metaphor he used was that for Spinoza being, or God was being. And, um, and, and, and, and which goes back to Juran because being is always, it's in process. It's, it's always, you know, spontaneously moving forward or moving.

[00:52:55] But he said the metaphor, he said that being is like an ocean and each of us is like a wave. And so for our lifetime, there's this wave, which has some identity, but it's still part of the ocean. And then when we pass the wave goes back, you know, I mean, it basically goes flat. So, but we're still part of the ocean.

[00:53:24] I heard that metaphor about eight hours ago from my favorite teacher. Did you really? I've never heard it. You know, I've used my, who is it? Who is this? So this is a guy called Rupert Spira, who is a non-dual teacher.

[00:53:47] So, so the word perennial philosophy comes from him quoting somebody else. When you, when you, when you, when, when, when we're done here, would you send me a, like a link or something or? Sure. Yeah. It sounds like a guy I'd be interested in. Yeah. I already figured that that might be the case.

[00:54:15] So, we're coming close on time here, David. Is there anything else you'd like to share before we wrap up? Well, I mean, it's a lot of fun. I really enjoyed this. I hope that others enjoy it also. Me too? I think, yeah.

[00:54:41] You know, I guess the only, the only other thing I'd say is that there's no end to the curiosity. The answers, you know, I mean, it's, it's like one of my heroes, God, I'm blanking on

[00:55:08] his name now, Mayor. He's a biologist. He, he, he passed when he was a hundred and he was, he was working on his 50th book. Wow. Wow. And, um, yeah, I, I'm not, I, you know, I, you know, what impress. You better get moving. You better get moving. Yeah.

[00:55:32] It's not the number of books, but just the, the curiosity to be, you know, to be, cause he, he, he, his curiosity was, it was the word I want. It was, it was in the writing of the books, you know, and, um, the, uh, anyway. It was his outlet. Yeah.

[00:55:59] It was, uh, I, I just hope that I am curious like that until the very end. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. Thanks, David. Thanks, listeners. Well, thank you. Take care. Take care. Thank you.