Curiosity, Glimmers & Experiments With Lilly Anspach

[00:00:00] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted

[00:00:07] to be joined by Lily, Lily Anspaugh looking forward to our conversation today Lily.

[00:00:13] Really looking forward. Yes me too. Thank you for having me. So is Lily short for Lillian or

[00:00:18] is it just Lily? It is just straight up Lily. Lily May. Lily May. Yeah. My dad's mum was a Lillian.

[00:00:30] That's why I am. I think Lillian is a bit too elegant for me. I'm just sort of Lily.

[00:00:38] Right. I don't think, she wasn't particularly elegant. No. She's old, she passed a long time ago,

[00:00:48] but she was the lady that made the outfit for the teddy bear right? Oh yeah. Yeah, Lily made

[00:00:57] the outfit for the teddy bear. So she's the one that thinks that blue and brown go together.

[00:01:03] Yeah. It's funny. Maybe it was just the last bit of the roles of the walk. So enough of this frivolity.

[00:01:18] Let's talk healing. What does healing mean to you Lily?

[00:01:22] Ah. So I love that question and I think that I've thought about it a hundred different ways.

[00:01:31] But really, I would say in this moment right now in my life, healing for me is just kind of like

[00:01:40] snapping out of the trance of trauma. Right? Oh your trauma puts you in a trance and

[00:01:46] it's kind of snapping out of it and getting your head out of the clouds of it and really taking your life back.

[00:01:55] You know, the other day I read a meme as I was scrolling through Instagram or something and it

[00:02:00] said something about being adopted as a job. Right? Your job, you know it whether it's

[00:02:08] implicitly told to you or not. You know your job is to fill the void in the family,

[00:02:12] comfort their pain, be who they need them to be, protect them from their loss, you know,

[00:02:17] keep your needs quiet, be respectful. You know, you're playing a role and I think

[00:02:23] we all know that's traumatizing and so kind of coming out of the trance of doing that and saying,

[00:02:27] well okay I don't have to be that anymore. So who am I really and how do I take my life back

[00:02:33] and how do I take my true self back? And I think that's kind of wraps up what healing is

[00:02:40] for me whether that be from adoption or other trauma or anything it's coming back home to yourself.

[00:02:46] Yeah, there's not much that to talk about I think that's wrapped up with this sort of job.

[00:02:52] And that's so simple right? Just come back home to yourself just find out who you really are.

[00:02:56] I mean what could be hard about that? Yeah indeed. Did you feel that being adopted was a job?

[00:03:05] I did. I was very well aware of that job. Yeah. And it's interesting because I think

[00:03:16] so many of our natural abilities that maybe are good and generative and useful outside of trauma

[00:03:24] get intermixed with trauma right? So I'm a I like to perform like right I'm an artist and

[00:03:32] I'm a musician and I like to perform and so that was innately in me anyways. And so there was a need for

[00:03:39] me to perform a role in the family and I was good at it and so right? And so I did that and I picked

[00:03:44] up on it and I was that and yeah and so it's interesting when and I think that's so interesting

[00:03:50] when you start to unpack all of your history is untangling it isn't so simple right? It's enmeshed

[00:04:02] the good things about you and the bad things about you or the things that don't serve you and

[00:04:06] the things that do serve you they're all kind of intertwined in a pretty for me anyways they

[00:04:10] have been in a pretty interwoven kind of tapestry and you don't throw everything out you know

[00:04:17] um you sometimes some of the traits that you had that caused you a lot of trauma when redirected

[00:04:27] and pointed in the right way can actually cause you a lot of success and happiness in your life too.

[00:04:33] So it can be confusing you know picking through that. Yeah did you feel it was a hard job?

[00:04:39] Did you feel it was a hard job? It was an onerous job did you did you kind of uh

[00:04:45] what's the word? Resent did you resent that job?

[00:04:51] I don't know if in the moment I resented it but in the moment I knew it wasn't right. Did that make

[00:04:59] sense? Like I think there was a part of me that was grateful that I could but I knew that I

[00:05:04] shouldn't have to. There was there was always a little wise part of the little me that was

[00:05:10] like this isn't right you know and I knew that I was doing things to survive and and I was I was

[00:05:18] abused in my family too so it wasn't just the adoption and the role it was like okay I've

[00:05:22] got to do these other things too to survive and I've got to get through this and and um

[00:05:27] it almost became a gosh a game well it was a game of survival right and so I would think

[00:05:36] that there was parts of me that was really grateful that I could um but I definitely knew I

[00:05:41] shouldn't have had to. I was very well aware of that. Yeah so you there's a lot of doing things here

[00:05:50] and then there's also some being things that strikes me right so the doing you're talking

[00:05:55] about the performing the performing the job filling the gap um uh keep it surviving

[00:06:02] um and then you've got the identity stuff as well kind of mixed in to that yeah into the

[00:06:12] into the way that you see it what what what do you see in in the kind of that identity

[00:06:22] did that make sense a little bit so when I was growing up and in that home

[00:06:33] the things that felt that felt me like my soul my true real identity were not well obviously

[00:06:41] they weren't mirrored right and not only were they not mirrored but they were actually deeply

[00:06:47] frowned upon right um a lot of the traits that I look at in myself now and love and admire

[00:06:54] were definitely not loved and admired in my home and was tampered down and I was always having to

[00:07:00] conform to something that didn't fit with my soul right and so then there was this this

[00:07:07] fissure in me like because when you're little and you're young and you're developing and your

[00:07:13] brain doesn't know yet you think well these people they it feels wrong but they also are

[00:07:17] adults and they're in charge and they must I must be wrong and so there's this you know there's this

[00:07:23] fissure right like well something must be wrong because my mom didn't keep me and then something

[00:07:28] must be wrong because everything that spurs out of me naturally and feels good is not welcomed

[00:07:34] in this family and then there was a religion component on top of it was like well you

[00:07:38] were born bad right so there was all this the whole world was telling me that I was wrong

[00:07:44] that I was bad and that I wasn't right you know and it wasn't just people verbally saying that it

[00:07:50] was all the systems around me saying that the adoption system the religion system you know

[00:07:54] there's something fundamentally wrong with you and and you can only fight that as a young

[00:07:59] person so long before you kind of agree with them and you're like yeah I must be

[00:08:03] really messed up and really broken and and then by the time I did survive I believed that

[00:08:10] so I went into my adulthood thinking my whole I really thought in adulthood my job was to fix

[00:08:17] everything wrong with me right and I spent 25 years what's wrong with me what's wrong

[00:08:24] with me what's wrong with me and and work in my butt off to systematically try to fix all the

[00:08:30] things that I had internalized were wrong with me and then there was that moment when I was like

[00:08:39] oh no it's not what's wrong with me it's what happened to me and because these things happened

[00:08:48] to me I have some stuff I gotta fix but it's not me that's broken right it's not me I was

[00:08:56] never wrong I was never sin I was never you know you know you know like the and it felt perfectly

[00:09:06] in line with the unwed mother the sin of having a child out of wedlock it right fell right in with

[00:09:12] the cultural narrative of you're born into sin and you have to you know the christian adoption

[00:09:18] narrative is really tricky right um and me just really coming out of the trance of that

[00:09:25] because I would hourly say I didn't believe it like if you would have talked to me I would have

[00:09:29] intellectually said oh no and I would have given you all the feminist or postmodern reasons that

[00:09:35] that wasn't true but in my soul I actually still believed it and I and that's why I was stuck

[00:09:40] for so many years is because there was a difference between the intellectual person of me and the

[00:09:45] actual deep feeling part of my soul that still kind of believed that they were all right

[00:09:54] that I was wrong that I was broken and and that there was something wrong with me right so the

[00:10:01] difference between how you how you thought and how you felt yeah for sure and just that disconnect

[00:10:12] and not and almost not believing that I could integrate the two right sometimes I was aware of

[00:10:17] it sometimes I wasn't sometimes it was a conscious understanding and many times it wasn't and I

[00:10:22] think that's why I spun around for so many years trying to do all the things that you were supposed

[00:10:27] to do to heal but then really understanding that I wasn't healing the way that I needed to

[00:10:32] and a bit of an overemphasis on my responsibility in it too right so um over the last couple

[00:10:42] years I've really come to the the knowledge that hey you know a lot of this trauma caused

[00:10:51] my brain to develop differently than other people's brains and I might need actual

[00:10:55] chemical help with some of that too right I and once I understood that and got that chemical

[00:11:02] help it's like oh okay now my now the wires in my brain are firing right and I can actually take

[00:11:08] advantage of all of this learning that I've accumulated over the years and make the connections

[00:11:14] and kind of you know before I before I started getting a medical help it was like my brain was a

[00:11:23] wheel stuck in mud it would just spin around and go around around and now I'm out of the mud and

[00:11:27] I can actually go somewhere my wheel is productive so it makes sense yeah yeah um I want to go back

[00:11:35] to the uh abuse because it's I think the biggest mentor I've had in my life over the last

[00:11:44] other loads of mentors and coaches come and go um but the the biggest one that's been

[00:11:51] at the start of the journey like 17 years ago and then still now every six months or so

[00:11:58] she was abused by she was abused at home by a dad and a dad also abused she's not she wanted to be

[00:12:05] adopted right she went to court to get out but the court wouldn't take her away so and a dad also

[00:12:14] abused um her mum as well uh and you know like that for me is like if you can get through that

[00:12:26] can kind of get through anything it seems it seems a completely different level of

[00:12:33] shit show compared to um compared to my life yeah but also the the the skills you learn to survive

[00:12:43] aren't the skills you learn to thrive there's a difference right there's survival

[00:12:49] and getting yourself safely out of the situation but if you don't learn new thriving skills

[00:12:57] then it's almost like you're maybe that situation isn't still happening but you're still

[00:13:03] living as if it is in some way does that make sense yeah yeah we still you're still living in

[00:13:11] in the fair on you um yeah yeah um you have to educate yourself and learn about it too right

[00:13:18] there's a whole bunch of understanding like I didn't know that oh this response was because I was

[00:13:25] triggered right and this is what a trigger is and this is why it happens and this is you know how

[00:13:32] you know again all these things I just thought were core defects in me that was just me right

[00:13:38] and I'm like oh no those are results of things that happened to you and um and they're the way

[00:13:44] your body and mind has been conditioned to to react and you can stop and make a different choice

[00:13:51] and you can educate yourself and learn why that's happening and deal with you know um the trauma

[00:13:59] that made that happen so that you can make a different choice um but I was stuck for years

[00:14:05] in intellectualizing as part of it I wasn't really truly allowing the feeling um and the

[00:14:11] grieving and letting it really really touch me I was still in this whole like it's not going to

[00:14:17] touch me thing and I think for years I thought if I actually surrender to it I will actually die

[00:14:23] I'll die or they will win because they got me but really there wasn't any winning you know the

[00:14:30] worst thing already had happened to me right and um so you know breaking past that intellect

[00:14:39] until you know what I'm trying to say I'm making it intellectual and actually really feeling it and

[00:14:45] and and coming into contact with with that grief um then was really important for me to move past it

[00:14:52] I couldn't keep avoiding it or pushing it away or saying this cannot happen I had to actually

[00:14:57] go to the bottom and let it try to consume me and realize that it couldn't yeah and it didn't

[00:15:05] then and it can't now so now I have some agency and some power to say all right I'm actually in

[00:15:11] control in a different way than I was before um and I can propel myself forward yeah but wasn't the

[00:15:20] survival method that wasn't the survival thing instinct that wasn't that the thing that was

[00:15:26] keeping keeping the trauma at arms like I don't know yeah you're sure yeah and yeah and it's all

[00:15:36] the things you do right like I mean and then there's other little traumas along the way that you just

[00:15:42] have those automatic responses and then you realize that that's not helping you you know as an adult

[00:15:47] in the free world where you're not um yeah yeah so you have to learn about that and unpack it

[00:15:54] all and and reverse it and again the tenacity that was a part of me is still a part of me so I can

[00:16:02] take that natural born tenacity and um intellect and passion um but steer it in a different direction

[00:16:10] right and I don't have to survive anymore I get to choose to thrive and not only

[00:16:14] is that possible but it's actually my natural state that's where my body my heart my mind

[00:16:19] my soul my spirit that's where we're supposed to be and that's what I think healing really is is

[00:16:24] reconnecting with your core source of goodness and um yeah

[00:16:34] the tenacity I that that's a word that I think describes so many others you know we kind of

[00:16:42] um

[00:16:44] yeah um and and uh yeah I

[00:16:51] I did my second face-to-face um somatic experiencing session yesterday uh I didn't

[00:17:02] I just started crying yeah

[00:17:05] uh right and it was it was kind of connected to the tenacity thing I would say it was like the hard

[00:17:15] charging like not charging money but charging just like the relentless yeah yeah yeah right yeah I

[00:17:27] totally understand that I so identify with that um and that's the thing that I think is tricky right

[00:17:35] because that gets us success in life right and so I don't want to completely um you know dissolve

[00:17:45] that personality trait right I just want to point it in the the path of help versus

[00:17:52] you know again that thriving versus surviving so if you can point that tenacity and learn to

[00:17:57] balance it right because we don't have to be on all the time we used to right we used to um but now

[00:18:05] we don't and it's learning when to turn it on and when I used to think that if I let go for a

[00:18:13] second I would lose everything right it just felt that like I had that kind of grip like if I

[00:18:20] let go of my tenacity if I let go of my pushing if I let go of my control and if I let go of

[00:18:24] any and I always you know that it's all gonna just fall apart and if I relax a little bit

[00:18:30] I'll die and it turns out it's like that somebody told me once you can't hold water with a closed

[00:18:38] fist because it squeezes out but if you've got your hand open and it's cupped gently you can

[00:18:44] hold a lot and coming home to that balance between the two um of rest and pursuit and that

[00:18:55] there's a time in a season for both but I didn't ever have that rest because as soon as I let my

[00:19:00] guard down something bad is going to happen and it did right um but that's not the truth now

[00:19:07] 40 some years later right so it it sounds like all this stuff was revving up for it for one big moment

[00:19:18] but uh was it one big moment or was it one big moment and a series of little moments is it

[00:19:25] is it what did what does this look like does the does the the sticky before and there isn't a

[00:19:35] sticky before and a joyous happy ever after after is that I don't know what does it look like for you

[00:19:43] you know I work in the field of continuous improvement and I would always when I would go

[00:19:51] into these companies and these organizations mostly manufacturing companies I would always

[00:19:56] teach them about the principles of continuous improvement and I would say hey you know what

[00:20:01] if your performance graph goes from here to here but it's like this I don't care that it ended up

[00:20:09] here because in the end of the day you're not going to be able to sustain that right what I'd

[00:20:15] rather see is a small change and have a plateau and get steady for a while to prove that you

[00:20:21] were able to integrate and and sustain the change that we made to get you an improvement in your

[00:20:26] performance and then I want to see another little step change I'd rather see like a

[00:20:29] stair step in your performance graph rather than a even though it goes in the general upward direction

[00:20:37] and that's how I could tell the health of the business or the health of their

[00:20:41] stability of their processes and I think a little bit of that applies to our healing journey too

[00:20:48] because before I really understood all of this I was doing a whole lot of that

[00:20:52] up and down and up and down right and I would I would get what I thought was well or

[00:21:00] integrate a new strategy or learn a new thing and then it would get a high but it would

[00:21:05] inevitably it would inevitably run out and I would bottom out and then I would kind of come back

[00:21:11] and I'd go up again and then it bottom out and then and after about three or four times of that

[00:21:15] I was really personally convinced that I'm not fixable and and that was in the last year

[00:21:22] where I was just like I'm 47 years old this is I can't do it there's nothing left for me to do

[00:21:28] and I became deeply suicidal and that's when I made some of the physiological changes and

[00:21:34] and did some things and now that I'm on the other side of that I'm much more in that

[00:21:40] that improve a little bit stabilize improve a little bit stabilize and it's almost like these

[00:21:46] little baby steps on paper they don't seem like giant leaps but they're categorically much more

[00:21:53] effective and efficient and have propelled me more holistically into healing than I was before

[00:22:03] it's not it's not seeing almost fire anymore it's actually real do you know does that make sense

[00:22:10] I think so yeah um I used to think that the I used to talk about this as well um

[00:22:17] like the healing curve like the the the learning curve is like the healing curve well it's not a

[00:22:24] curve it has got those step changes in it you know but then I could get I'm just gonna I've started so

[00:22:32] I finished you get a bit geeky so it actually depends how close you're zooming in on the

[00:22:38] you know what your level of magnification is right um so what what do you think the upward

[00:22:47] um movement movements are what do you think what do you think the steps are we know it's

[00:22:56] this we know it's a step change on the graph but what does that represent in terms of

[00:23:04] something non-graphical something akin to yeah like well for me it's you know when I think about

[00:23:11] like I think about it as again I'm kind of scientific minded right so I think about it as a problem

[00:23:17] solving circle you know you plan you do you check act you experiment like you're constantly in this

[00:23:22] in the circle of experimentation does this work does somatic therapy help does talk therapy help

[00:23:28] does um a medication help does rewriting my story help what what what things work and I think

[00:23:36] I think that's part of why it's so difficult to talk about healing universally even in a group as

[00:23:41] specific as adopt these is because it's also very unique for every individual person but I do think

[00:23:48] there's a bit of a bit of a formula to it you know like we all learn in healing that oh I'm

[00:23:56] triggered and I need to learn why I'm triggered what was the cause of it and then some strategies

[00:24:01] to make sure you know in the future if I put myself on a situation like this this is how I

[00:24:05] strategize and I can get through it but I think sometimes what we don't talk about enough is that

[00:24:12] those strategies from the triggers or the things that threaten to throw us off course

[00:24:17] really come from this other piece that we don't talk about as much as these glimmers right we

[00:24:22] talk about triggers all the time but do we talk about glimmers what are the what are the pieces

[00:24:26] of your life that um really those moments of awe those moments of joys those little things that

[00:24:33] just make you feel alive in life you know the things that say they're micro moments that cause mood

[00:24:38] shifts in you that when you recognize hey I feel like I think I want to feel right um the ease

[00:24:44] the contentment the um cues to our safety in our nervous system and so I think that for me

[00:24:52] healing is being really really focused on those glimmers and they're the key to unlocking all my

[00:25:00] strategies from our triggers right so you know I know that I have a problem with ruminating thoughts

[00:25:07] I have a problem with regulating some of that and when I get into that spiral medication helps a lot

[00:25:14] but when I still do get into it I know that I have activities that regulate me right I do

[00:25:19] pottery I do quilting I do I run I do things that kind of release some of those natural chemicals

[00:25:25] in the brain that make us at ease and contentment I love that when I sit down at a pottery wheel

[00:25:32] and I try to center some clay and make a vase or a bowl that my brain doesn't have any space to

[00:25:37] think about trauma right all it's thinking about is what I need to do to center this clay

[00:25:43] to make it into something beautiful and then the sense of satisfaction of struggling with it

[00:25:48] it leaps right so you've got to get a kind of refill your life with those things um and and

[00:25:56] those are the things that make our souls come alive and those are the keys to um sustainability

[00:26:02] and health yeah two two things on that I love the glimmers versus triggers because

[00:26:11] you know glimmers sounds like you're focusing on the growth and triggers

[00:26:16] sounds like we're focusing on the negative stuff right and and obviously as everybody says

[00:26:21] what we focus on gets bigger dadi dadi so yeah you're thinking on that um the other side

[00:26:27] the other part that you talked about and the creative stuff there is no

[00:26:34] um

[00:26:39] I did an interview with a uh neuroanatomist called Jill Balti Taylor recently right

[00:26:45] and she would say well um you said there's no room there's no room when you're

[00:26:55] making a pot right there's no room for the trauma or it's actually it's a different side of

[00:27:02] the brain right so yep left the left brain is where the uh the judge the judge is

[00:27:11] um the self-critic uh is and the traumatized in a child is basically all in the left

[00:27:20] whereas the creative the right brain that that's where the creative guy

[00:27:26] good that's that's that is the creative so so that that's

[00:27:32] uh for some reason

[00:27:38] somebody just sent me an email a guy coming on the podcast next month he sent me an email

[00:27:42] because I'd been talking to him about somatic stuff and he said um uh oh yeah uh yeah uh look

[00:27:50] at this guy look at peter levine and and I listen I try to listen to his book

[00:27:56] Peter peter levine tigers or something and it something about tigers and it doesn't it

[00:28:02] doesn't gel for me because somatic stuff is body stuff right it's not head stuff right so

[00:28:11] he's got a challenge there right how can you talk about stuff that is body stuff

[00:28:18] it's like experiencing in it right so but the the kind of the winning combination for me at

[00:28:25] the moment is the somatic stuff with the my therapist right but putting that together for um

[00:28:37] with the logic of gilbert taylor's stuff

[00:28:42] ah you know like because everybody says whether they're adopted or not I've got this voice in

[00:28:48] my head that tells me that i'm not good enough I i've spent a lot of healing with non-adopted

[00:28:55] they've all got that too but ours is ours is our belief has got steel running through the concrete

[00:29:03] right it's it's reinforced it's reinforced and and and you know we're not going to do

[00:29:12] anyway um but there is an actual part of the left brain that does that it's not just

[00:29:19] it sounds like oh it's a metaphor it's you know it's uh it's a story it's a tale but no

[00:29:27] there is a gilbert taylor who is a neuroanatomist neuroscientist she says no that there is a bit

[00:29:35] there that's that's what it does yeah so um so the combination of kind of somatic and um

[00:29:44] and and that's that's kind of what works for me and and you're so right you know you're talking about

[00:29:51] trying as you was talking about everybody's healing being different what was coming to me was I was

[00:29:56] thinking about business metaphors as well um and uh and the fact that everybody's looking for the

[00:30:03] silver bullet um and there is a silver bullet in business uh try some new stuff see if it works

[00:30:10] if it works do more of it if it doesn't don't do it anymore and that's do it act it is it's the

[00:30:19] scientific method it truly is that right I mean it is like hey I don't like the result I'm getting

[00:30:25] let's try something different based on some good theories some good ideas we have and then let's

[00:30:30] check the result readjust based on the result we got and do it again right and that's why healing

[00:30:37] people talk about healing being a spiral sometimes too right like you're right but it is truly just that

[00:30:43] that that scientific problem solving matter and the relentless pursuit of it eventually leads

[00:30:50] you to success right if you you if you believe in your soul that that I'm good and that the

[00:30:59] world is good and love is it then you got to be on the relentless pursuit of getting in connection

[00:31:07] of that and and everybody is going to find the different exact formula for themselves and there are

[00:31:12] some universal tenets that point us in this in the same direction but it is a deeply personal

[00:31:17] individual um journey and I think that it's all about being balanced too right if you want to

[00:31:27] if you want to over you can't you can't deny that there's trauma you can't deny that your

[00:31:32] nervous system has been wired a particular way in result of the trauma and you're going to

[00:31:37] have these triggers and these responses and these maladaptive behaviors but you can't think your

[00:31:42] way out of them you can't intellectualize your way out of them you have to come up with

[00:31:46] the strategy that is both it's yin and yang it's a it's a I learned I understand I have

[00:31:53] the cognitive um grasp of it but now I have to I have to embody it in some way shape or form

[00:31:59] and through some kind and that's why I love the trigger glimmer thing right because the the

[00:32:05] pointing to your healing is where are those tiny moments that spark your joy when was like

[00:32:11] think about me a last couple weeks what was going on when you had just this inner calm

[00:32:16] or you had this moment of awe or you felt safe you know and that's the clue to your healing do more

[00:32:23] of that right and then understand the neurobiological aspects of what's happening and

[00:32:33] you know when you're deeply involved in something that brings you joy there's no

[00:32:39] brain processing power for all the ruminating thoughts of all the things that you think ruined

[00:32:44] you because you're not ruined you're you're you've got some glitches up there you gotta work on

[00:32:51] but you're not ruined no a couple of things um what about what we say to somebody that

[00:33:08] at adoptee that says that they can't heal well I'm a change management expert right I help companies

[00:33:19] go through change management and the very first thing that we teach you is that in order to have

[00:33:26] just different results you have to have different beliefs right so if you really believe that

[00:33:33] you can't heal you won't and I'm not judging the person for believing they can't heal because

[00:33:41] likely they haven't seen examples of people who can or did or they haven't been inspired yet right

[00:33:48] and so I just think that yeah if this is what you believe then you won't have a different

[00:33:53] outcome you have to change your beliefs in order to change your actions and so I think

[00:33:59] and so I think that's why it's so important for us to tell our stories about how we have healed and

[00:34:05] what has worked for us and the hope on the other side um and that it is real and it's not a

[00:34:11] saint almost fire burst on the horizon that there is true lasting um and I've just been

[00:34:17] fortunate in my life to to see examples of that both in the adoption community and outside

[00:34:24] of it and um you just gotta you gotta love yourself and believe in yourself enough

[00:34:32] to just refuse to stop until you find the key that unlocks it but I believed it was possible

[00:34:38] but if you don't you not much you can do about it so here's another one I'm thinking

[00:34:44] about at the moment is um do do we feel you know did you used to feel traumatized all the time

[00:34:56] or were the glimmers even in the darkest moment in the in the darkest moments

[00:35:03] were definitely there even in the darkest moments now whether I recognize them or not

[00:35:07] in that moment but if I looked back I remember is it you know one of the things that heals me

[00:35:12] is nature right my adoptive parents were not nature people at all right but one year they

[00:35:21] had some friends down south and they drove us through the great um the Smoky Mountain National

[00:35:27] Park and I'll never forget as a child looking out my window and what I felt right that was

[00:35:35] a glimmer that was a point and then I found my biological family it turns out they're all

[00:35:39] mountain appellation people so that that that clue is there for me as a little as a little child

[00:35:45] and I didn't recognize it like I wasn't nine years old saying oh I'm connected to this landscape

[00:35:50] because this is in my heritage or this is a natural passion for me but I do remember that

[00:35:55] and then when I found trail running and and camping and hiking and all these kind of things

[00:36:02] and and I fell in love with the region that I'm actually from before I even knew I was from

[00:36:06] there those were there they were inside of me they were pointing me home all along

[00:36:12] so what what Jill Balty Taylor is pointing to is uh and the book is called whole brain living

[00:36:22] is them or she she she says four parts to the brain right so it's not just left and right

[00:36:29] left and left and right it's left thinking left feeling right thinking right feeling this

[00:36:35] this four parts so when we're feeling like I even in my darkest if I I'd say never feel

[00:36:42] there's always glimmers I'd be with you with you like you right always be glimmers and

[00:36:50] and that that that's when we're in a different part of our brain so it she she looks she talks

[00:36:57] about it as four characters so this we talk we talk about character you know what can you tell me

[00:37:05] something about if you you know interviewing interviewing somebody for a one of a new role

[00:37:10] within your change management like can you tell me about your character or can you tell me about

[00:37:14] personality we all assume that there's one and there isn't this there's four at play

[00:37:22] at any time at any one of four at play at any one time so we've got uh the the

[00:37:35] she she encourages us to give give our characters names right so

[00:37:40] uh the character one is there is the control freak right so I call him Robin so I met this guy

[00:37:57] once who was he looked like a tank commander right look like a tank right so I always in control

[00:38:04] like control like a type A for behavior personality right so I called him Robin number two

[00:38:11] so this is left left brain is is the um it's the is the wounded child it's that they're in your

[00:38:17] child what people call the inner child so I call him David because that was my birth name right so

[00:38:24] he's the one that doesn't know what's happened yeah yeah he's like uh number three I haven't got a

[00:38:31] name for yet but number four is uh I call Rupert because he's he's the expansive

[00:38:39] Rupert Spirey guy that I mentioned all the time who is uh who is the universe who is that expansive

[00:38:46] true that you've alluded to each time so what's actually happening is we don't we don't feel

[00:38:53] I don't think we feel trauma all the time because the trauma is in is in is in Simon

[00:38:59] sorry in in character two even uh and so there's there's a mass oversimplification that you know

[00:39:07] that well the mass oversimplification we say well we like because we're not one character all the

[00:39:12] time you know everybody um some people are more introvert than extrovert but they they'll be extra

[00:39:21] more extroverted with people that they know weren't they I mean it's you know there isn't

[00:39:26] yeah yeah it'll be different some people are different at work and at home some people are

[00:39:30] different with adopted parents than they are with by parents some people you know I it

[00:39:34] we're all playing against them um anyway that was just but how interesting I so what I think is

[00:39:39] interesting to me when I think about my one and two on my left brain I think about the worst of

[00:39:49] me has always been remember I told you that tight holding on super controlling because

[00:39:54] the the wounded one and the control freak are trying to run the show yeah and the mystery person

[00:40:01] right though I that's what I think you know there's so many parallels to to healing um

[00:40:11] as there are to just basic change management in business right the people who the the leaders

[00:40:18] who I find to be the most influential and successful are the ones that have the most amounts of curiosity

[00:40:27] and who are not attached to having the answer that they know that their actual job is to ignite

[00:40:34] the best in the people around them to facilitate really great discussions and then help every

[00:40:38] like thread through the best choice and so if we're not doing things that activate inside of us

[00:40:46] that part of us then these guys get to run the show and when these guys are in the show we end up

[00:40:51] in really bad places like I have and really bad places right and I do I do want to

[00:40:58] really acknowledge and give grace to the fact that when you have really developed this side

[00:41:06] it's deeply terrifying to allow that other side because you know to be honest with you like

[00:41:13] my life may not have been perfect but I was alive and I was making money and I had a general

[00:41:18] resemblance of a healthy life even though inside I was tormented right and so if I was going to let

[00:41:24] this side in on the game was I going to lose all that it's scary and it's the same you know

[00:41:31] in non trauma situations like if you want to make a step change in business you got to do

[00:41:35] something you've never done before if you really want to have some kind of a breakthrough

[00:41:39] in your healing you've got to be curious you got to be out there listening learning

[00:41:44] following your glimmers being willing to try something that you've never tried before

[00:41:48] be willing to do something that you think is going to kill you because that's probably the

[00:41:52] thing that's going to heal you yeah you know yeah and yet we have something struck me on

[00:42:01] Monday after so I would do this on a Wednesday listening right um something that hit me on on

[00:42:06] Monday is like all this stuff that we're given right it's trauma education it's not healing

[00:42:14] education is it right yeah and and you know trauma education is a important piece but yeah

[00:42:22] up here yeah right and it's that's what I was saying before when I went from what's wrong with me

[00:42:28] to what happened to me all of that was the intellectualizing side of it that left brain

[00:42:33] side of it that one in two personality when you start to actually feel and grieve and experience

[00:42:39] and practice and experiment and live and be get honest with all of it then you have an opportunity

[00:42:46] but if you're over here just dissecting ruminating on and finding 15 million ways to

[00:42:54] describe the trauma then you don't open the opportunity for this other side or if you

[00:42:59] don't believe you're healable if you feel your wound is primarily fatal then you don't have this on the

[00:43:06] other side um so it's it's a necessary first step but we've got to evolve past that and move into

[00:43:17] okay now that I understand what am I going to do about it yeah

[00:43:21] yeah

[00:43:24] so why is it more healing education why are we stuck in this trauma education

[00:43:30] well I think for adoptees I've because I've been thinking about this a lot too I think for adoptees

[00:43:37] some so much of it is our need to be seen wound is so deep right and I think we're

[00:43:48] ruminating on the trauma and re-describing the trauma and telling the stories of our trauma over

[00:43:52] and over because we just really want somebody to fucking see it right well it's because it is so

[00:43:58] disenfranchised and it's not just disenfranchised in one system it's disenfranchised across

[00:44:06] multiple systems that we we live and work in and so I think so many of us are still trying to

[00:44:10] say don't you see me don't you see me but here's what happened to me I realized that

[00:44:16] the only person that needed to fucking see me was me it didn't matter how much anybody understood my

[00:44:22] trauma it didn't matter how many times I told my story because the truth of it is even my husband

[00:44:29] who I've been married to for 26 years he's the most intimate person in my life even he can't really

[00:44:34] understand it and you know how freaking lonely that is it's but you gotta feel that loneliness

[00:44:40] right you gotta understand you know what there's nobody in the world that's ever gonna know

[00:44:46] but me and I'm gonna have to just be okay with that and feel that loneliness feel that desperation

[00:44:53] and then move on because if you're trying to get somebody to see it or feel it or empathize with

[00:44:59] you you know in community we can get you know 75 percent of the way there but even all of us

[00:45:09] in all of our stories of adoption and various different traumas there's always different

[00:45:13] subtleties that and and everybody's personal experience is just so like their own fingerprint

[00:45:19] right and it's yours you own it you gotta come to terms with it and be your own best friend be

[00:45:25] your own seer see yourself and then once you do see yourself and acknowledge it then you probably

[00:45:31] have space to move on yeah so what do you think stops us healing fear fear of letting go of the

[00:45:44] coping mechanisms and the way we've learned to survive all these years I think fear I think

[00:45:50] I think disbelief that we really do deserve and are worthy and capable of the thriving piece

[00:45:59] right and I think not enough examples of the thriving right I think we need to celebrate and show

[00:46:06] more of our successes of our joys of our of our glimmers of all the ways that we've

[00:46:11] taking back our lives and we've become our own people and we've used agency and I think

[00:46:17] there's more and more of that happening you know I see a lot you know the the folks that I'm

[00:46:22] connected with or drawn to or doing that and I just think we need a lot more of it to give

[00:46:26] folks a picture and a model of what's after what's next yeah

[00:46:36] so do any particular healing moments come to mind for you Lily

[00:46:45] many many many I know the birth of my yeah I know the birth the birth of my daughter

[00:46:52] and the process of watching her grow parenting and and and witnessing her life has been

[00:47:00] profoundly healing for me because I have in front of me something that I made

[00:47:10] an example of how easy and natural it is to parent right

[00:47:16] right do you know and how exactly none of that was my fault right I did not at age three five seven do

[00:47:24] anything to deserve any of the stuff that happened to me and to see that in her to to look

[00:47:31] at her and wonder what kind of monster would you have to be to do the kind of things and say

[00:47:35] the kind of things that I needed that I needed well I didn't know I needed it but it's been

[00:47:43] but it's been brilliantly beautiful to reflect and watch and see her innate goodness and how you

[00:47:54] have to work really hard to break that down and that helped me a lot to understand yeah it wasn't me

[00:48:01] you know I think that's been a not just one moment but a series of multiple moments that

[00:48:07] that have helped deepen my understanding and integrate some of the intellectual lessons into

[00:48:14] heart moments you know yeah and and honestly some other have been my you know the darkest

[00:48:25] darkest darkest places that you know the the places where I was like really believed that

[00:48:32] my family my daughter the world would be better without me that you know and being rock rock rock

[00:48:40] bottom and admitting I was there and surrendering and getting help and saying I can't do it I need

[00:48:51] I need help I need somebody to help me and then listen to them so seeing your daughter's goodness

[00:48:58] help you see your goodness yep

[00:49:09] and not just her goodness but just

[00:49:15] like

[00:49:15] like

[00:49:20] also how

[00:49:25] simple and easy parenting really could have and should have been you know and maybe that's because I'm

[00:49:32] biologically hers and I don't have any idea what it's like to be an adoptive parent and I know

[00:49:36] that it's hard for them too I know they have a lot of problems and difficulties and

[00:49:41] they've been robbed of a child of their own and I get it right and I'm not so I understand they have

[00:49:46] their own journey and process that I don't fully understand but when I look at some of her behaviors

[00:49:54] that I remember behaving is doing a certain thing and the response that just naturally

[00:49:59] welled up in me versus the response that I got it was like oh you know not just her goodness

[00:50:06] because even in her in her ornery-ness or her or her badness or her low moments how easy it is to

[00:50:16] see her as a person to choose to give her compassion and respect and extend agency to her so that she

[00:50:27] can learn and grow in a safe healthy environment right like there's rules we have rules but

[00:50:35] you're always emotionally psychologically spiritually and physically safe here period

[00:50:41] and many of us as adoptees whether we were abused or not didn't have that and

[00:50:49] and I didn't have to read a book to learn how to do that I didn't have to go to a

[00:50:53] fucking class I didn't nobody had to teach me I didn't have to learn right it's it's natural

[00:50:59] and so again for me it's not about blaming but it's about understanding that something was really

[00:51:07] really wrong with these people that made them not behave in what's a very natural way even for

[00:51:12] somebody who was right like you know people always talk about how abuse is generational

[00:51:20] and I've always read these things about how difficult it is to be the person to stop it

[00:51:25] I don't think it's hard at all I think it's like really really really easy right like

[00:51:30] don't do horrible things to people it's I think that's pretty fundamentally easy

[00:51:36] so I think what it did was again it again it kind of helped me understand it wasn't you

[00:51:43] it wasn't you there was something really really wrong there that caused them to behave in the

[00:51:49] way that they did and it's not your job to fix them to understand them it's your job to

[00:51:55] to see in your daughter the innate wholeness and goodness and recognize that you were that too

[00:52:00] and you still are and that guides a completely different path forward yeah so let's talk about

[00:52:09] the identity piece then what does that mean to you?

[00:52:16] its identity is

[00:52:24] is the expression of my glimmers right the things I'm naturally drawn to filled with all

[00:52:32] filled with joy the things that make me excited the things that make me me

[00:52:41] and the elimination of shame around any of those right so I'm a talkative,

[00:52:48] gracious, excitable girl right I have a lot of passion and I shouldn't be ashamed of that

[00:52:54] that's actually one of my gifts and it's nothing wrong with it

[00:53:02] and I don't have to be anything for anybody but for myself

[00:53:10] and so if I'm putting a mask on or playing a role

[00:53:16] it better be serving me and not serving somebody else right so it's just it's falling in love

[00:53:23] with yourself and realizing that you know there's no such thing as the perfect person there's just

[00:53:31] who you are and uh that's kind of what it is to me it's not a role it's not a title it's not a

[00:53:40] position it's not a place in the family it's not a adjective it's just your your essence

[00:53:49] what your soul and heart and mind is drawn to and what makes you happy and what makes flow and ease

[00:53:56] surround you

[00:54:04] so is it cutting as you were talking about um half an hour so you're talking about

[00:54:12] um religious stuff the system stuff the abuse stuff and I wrote down I wrote down bad bad bad

[00:54:21] bad all right so it seems to me like the elimination of shame is is

[00:54:29] uh penetrating those four

[00:54:37] four five layers of badness that was that was in the way is it me what is it what does it feel

[00:54:44] like is it is it unpeeling there those layers is it seeing through is it seeing through the

[00:54:50] false belief that of the badness what what does it look like give me a uh metaphor that or uh

[00:54:57] any sort of explanation that it's not me trying to put my stuff on your stuff

[00:55:07] I guess what initially came to my mind as you were talking is

[00:55:11] that I don't need to punish myself or reign myself in or hyperanalyze and correct that like

[00:55:23] what comes from and through me is

[00:55:29] on purpose and right instead of something that I have to filter fix adjust mend twist

[00:55:37] for for a consumer out there right there's no consumer out there this life is just mine

[00:55:44] you know I came into the world by myself I'm gonna leave by myself and

[00:55:48] granted I have family and friends and community around me that I get to share moments of it but

[00:55:52] truly it's it's me and and there's nothing

[00:56:00] that that piece of of letting go of shame even right now I'm trying to figure out what was I

[00:56:10] ashamed of again right like existing I truly it was so

[00:56:18] core cellular that just living felt like it was something that should be

[00:56:26] fixed I don't know how to I don't know how to describe it but it was really really deeply

[00:56:30] cellular for me for so many years and even I disguised so much of my healing

[00:56:36] I mean like that's why so much of my healing didn't work because it was still through that filter lens

[00:56:42] of gotta fix what's wrong with me there's something something wrong with me no no no no

[00:56:48] things happened to you that have caused certain

[00:56:56] traits or activities or responses or things and you need to understand that and you can

[00:57:03] you can make a different choice if you want to feel better and but if you don't want to feel better

[00:57:10] you don't have to right like I don't know so if I sum it up in in a sentence

[00:57:21] and I wish you would because I can't well yeah yeah you can take a pot shot take a pot shot at

[00:57:25] my sentence right um so it's moving from self-improvement to self-recognition

[00:57:31] yeah and uh yeah for sure yeah so we look at it like project work you know self-development right

[00:57:41] there's something wrong with me I've got to I've got to do it you know so you may be thinking this

[00:57:46] but yeah I'm just going into a sales pitch for a self-development program you know that

[00:57:53] how they you know I used to feel like you I used to feel like you this but you know until

[00:57:58] I discovered x y and z and if you spent this much money we're in this much time with me

[00:58:03] then I'll help you uh you know right that's version of yourselves right of yourself and it's only

[00:58:10] it's only a thousand dollars some guy so some guy said this to me he did this to me like 12 years ago

[00:58:18] right uh I went outside the idea I was going to do some coaching right so I I went to see this guy

[00:58:28] and I told him about my idea and um I'd seen this guy before and he'd he charged me

[00:58:35] um 50 quid and so 50 pounds and and he'd given me some really insightful moments

[00:58:43] and I was and I bumped into him and I went back to him anyway he went to I went to see him in his

[00:58:50] little office and I told him about my plan and and he said well no no no you can't you're not you're

[00:59:00] not ready for this Simon and I uh I can I can sort you know we can sort this out I can I can do

[00:59:07] this but you know you you need to have skin in the game Simon to do this

[00:59:13] and you need to take so you know I will work for as long as it takes

[00:59:17] and it's going to be 12 000 pounds and I just thought right I'd seen the guy eight years before

[00:59:26] so suddenly he's gone from 60 pounds an hour to 12 000 pounds this doesn't this doesn't

[00:59:34] sound right and and he was he was gaslighting me into a sale

[00:59:43] I and I'm I can be I can be a little bit I'm easily influenced you know um but

[00:59:54] I and I went home thinking about this and I no no no no no no no and and then I got to that

[01:00:02] realization that no he was just playing a he was playing a I can't he was playing a con on me

[01:00:10] yeah and and uh and and yeah so that's the story behind I mean just just think about how many

[01:00:20] I mean forget adoption but just think about how many industries are completely sustained on the

[01:00:26] idea that something's missing something's wrong you know they're need you need to be better

[01:00:31] yeah yeah yeah a lot of money in it there's a lot of money so I was thinking about that

[01:00:36] when we're talking about the silver bullet for business and you talked about your um

[01:00:40] process the the odd team improvement or whatever the outcomes of the process um

[01:00:48] TQM total quality management whatever it is and like so if you're McKinsey you can't really charge

[01:00:56] 50 million quid 50 million dollars 60 million dollars for a change management project

[01:01:02] and just show one slide right we're going to do some things we're gonna see what works we do

[01:01:09] more of that we're gonna see what doesn't work and we're gonna do less than that

[01:01:13] that um yeah please pay us 50 million to do this

[01:01:19] lots of lots of lots of businesses do

[01:01:22] so they over when okay so this is the off topic but when the answer is already in the business

[01:01:29] the people there already know right they just need help getting their voices heard and need systems

[01:01:37] in their own business so their voices can be heard because there's no expert outside of your

[01:01:41] business there's no expert outside of yourself that has the key right you have to filter all the

[01:01:51] information and take bits and pieces of it and use your own discernment and follow your glimmers

[01:01:57] towards hey this works for me you know I I don't think every adoptee is going to end up being a

[01:02:03] ultra trail runner right but that's a really significant piece of me staying healthy and

[01:02:10] staying happy and a part of my identity and a part of my regulation so again there's happy healthy

[01:02:19] regulated moments of all but it's going to be completely different for Simon than it is for Lily

[01:02:24] right um yeah I I'm a runner I'm a swimmer not a runner so I wouldn't do the running thing

[01:02:34] but I as a kid I wanted to do the English channel but apparently it's full of it's it's

[01:02:39] full of jellyfish and poop so you don't want to I'm not yummy gross not not so nice I'll skip that

[01:02:46] I'll skip that um so what do you mean by self we talked about um self recognition

[01:02:52] rather than self improvement uh what do you what do you mean by self

[01:02:57] that's a really hard question

[01:03:03] uh you can use a match of four if you want well like um

[01:03:12] um just when I think of self I think of

[01:03:22] uh a speck of pebble on a beach right so humanity is the beach and myself I'm one piece of it

[01:03:32] right um and I mean or snowflake right people use the snowflake thing we're all like everyone's

[01:03:38] unique or whatever but um I think about like that I think that I am for whatever reason on the planet

[01:03:47] at this time doing this experiment we call humanity um and uh I'm a part of something bigger I don't

[01:03:56] know how to name it or call it I don't pretend to know and I think anybody who does you should

[01:04:01] question uh and um I I'm awareness I guess I think that's a deeply deeply intense question

[01:04:13] but that's what I think I think that I am a physical expression of

[01:04:20] awareness consciousness that's what I am I'm here on a unique experiment doing whatever it is I'm

[01:04:27] doing so yeah and I'm not overly attached to purpose either I am not uh you know a lot of people

[01:04:35] say oh you gotta find who you are so you can find your purpose and and give a contribution to the

[01:04:40] world and and I think me being in love with the experience of being alive is the best contribution

[01:04:48] I can give to the world brilliant brilliant that feels like a good place to bring it in

[01:04:55] yeah I think so thanks Lily thanks lessons we'll speak to you soon you're so welcome Simon bye