Emotional Self Suffciency Amanda Timoteo

[00:00:02] Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Amanda. I didn't check how we say your surname so I'm going to go for Timoteo. It's a little different. My husband is Samoan which is like Polynesian and you're drinking tea and stay at a motel. So, Timoteo. Okay, cool. I should have asked that before we hit. It's okay. I love telling that story.

[00:00:31] Yeah. So Amanda, what does Thriving mean to you? That's a really good question. I think Thriving is being the best version of yourself. And I don't think that the best version of yourself is necessarily the best version of other people. And when I think of Thriving and what I mean by that definition is, you know, some people enjoy like a simple life, van life, right? That's thriving for them.

[00:00:59] They live in a van. They have very few possessions. They get to travel the world. They don't need much as far as material possessions or even that much income. And then for other people, Thriving is living in a big mansion on a cliff in Malibu and that's where they find their peace and happiness and their motivation. So I think all of us are striving for that best version of ourselves. And that definition isn't a one size fits all, if that makes sense.

[00:01:28] Yeah. And if I extended it on, right, a thriving adoptees, what does that mean to you? I think when I sit there and think of thriving adoptees is a healthy connection to somebody, whether that is their family of origin, whether that's an adoptive parent, whether that's down the line that they've created their own nuclear family and have a healthy attachment.

[00:01:55] But I think for me, when I think of adoptees thriving, it's a healthy connection to something or someone. Yeah. And obviously that connection's lost for some of us in some ways. Yeah. Yeah. I think what's interesting is I talk to people all day long that are looking to, that they have some type of pull towards adoption or fostering, right?

[00:02:23] I'm in both worlds, fostering and adoption. Some of times that motivation is to develop a family. Sometimes that motivation is to help a child in need. But one of the misconceptions that I often have to talk about with families is when I say, okay, what age group are you wanting to work with? A lot of them think that the younger they get a child, the less likely they are to deal with that disconnect or that trauma.

[00:02:51] And I often have to expel that, that at some point that child is going to have to address or deal or talk with the fact that there was this disruption in the attachment cycle. Attachment, we've learned from, from research and training that it happens in utero.

[00:03:12] And so when that attachment is severed, no matter what age it is, there's going to be repercussions or at least something that has to be addressed and dealt with in that child. I often talk to them about, with my foster families is people that have been adopted often, even though they have all these people that want them and their mind, there was someone that didn't. And they have to address that. Like, why, why wasn't I good enough? Why didn't that family member want me?

[00:03:41] And even it could have been a young mother that just knew she wasn't equipped and wanted to provide a better life for her child. At some point that still has to be addressed, that detachment, so to speak. Yeah. And if you kind of put, to put your personal hat on rather than your professional hat, how would you see this? Oh my gosh, it's hard to take the professional or the personal right. I've been always dealing with this.

[00:04:09] So when I look at my, my own children have been adopted. I, my youngest child that I ever had come to my home, it was 15 months. And I look at him and he actually struggles the most out of all my children with his adoption and with his birth mother, even though three of my children have the same birth mother, because he doesn't have any recollection of what life with her was life. And that is not to judge her. That's not to say that anything about her.

[00:04:38] She was given a hard hand in life and did the best that she could in those moments, right? With the hand that she was dealt. But he often has more questions than my other two that have a lot of memory of being in that space with her. So when I look at it from a personal standpoint, I feel that no matter what, at one point, they're going to have to come to terms with whatever they're struggling in life. We often, with our children and with myself, focus on that.

[00:05:09] You're the only person that can fill that void in your life that no one else is responsible for filling that void or making you a healthy person. And so from a personal standpoint, I don't look at others to fulfill who I am. And I try to teach my children the same. But I also understand that trauma is real. And we're going to have to deal with it. And we do the best that we can by getting them help to professionals.

[00:05:36] We are very faith-based in our family. So having that connection. I don't necessarily think that religion can solve all. But I do think that a deeper, some type of, some belief system has to ground us, right? Like wherever that belief system is, has to give us some type of grounding of who we are as a person. So I think I kind of went all over with that, but hopefully we get the bigger meaning that.

[00:06:05] Personally, we're all going to have to figure out what gives us purpose in life and what drives us and fill that void. But we do have to address it. We cannot bury it. And I think that's the mistake that a lot of adoptive families and adoptees make is if we just don't talk about it, it's not going to exist. And that, I think, gets us in a lot of trouble. That it's best to talk about it and bring it to it. Let's talk about it. Let's get it out in the open. Let's talk about the feelings that you're feeling.

[00:06:34] And I look at my foster and adoptive families that are coming in, and I get that it's weird to have this person that you love in your life. And we're taught to be monogamous people, right? That's kind of what society generally teaches us. I know that there's different definition of relationships out there now in the world. But generally, we pick a partner and we stay with that partner.

[00:06:57] So when you have these children in your life that you feel like they're a mom, but there's also this other mom out there, we can think that the best thing is to cut off that connection and sever it. And that's going to be the best thing for that child. And sometimes maybe there is a point that there has to be some severance. Maybe that individual is not healthy for that child, right? But it definitely has, that relationship has to definitely be discussed in a healthy manner.

[00:07:23] And that child's going to have to navigate that relationship at some point, whether it's mentally, meaning the loss of that relationship, or whether it's in the present and actually have that relationship in their life. Yeah. Can I take you back a bit? Because you were talking about, well, I would sum it up with the phrase self-sufficiency. Yeah. Self-sufficiency. So you were talking about self-sufficiency even with your kids.

[00:07:53] Yeah. In terms of almost like an emotional self-sufficiency. Is that kind of what you're thinking about? Yeah. Absolutely. Because even... You looked a bit shocked there, Amanda. Well, because I would say it's both.

[00:08:13] I think it's self-sufficiency in the sense of emotional, but also a self-sufficiency, obviously, even with like financially and everything. But definitely, I think emotionally. I think... I look at what I tell my kids. I love my husband. I've been with my husband for 23 years. But my husband does not... She doesn't look old enough, listeners, by the way.

[00:08:43] She does. I've been with him a long time. No, she doesn't. She doesn't. And we were not high school sweethearts. So that makes me feel really good. Good. So I've been with him... That's not very emotionally self-sufficient, right? I know, right? I haven't... He was not my high school sweetheart. We met in college. So, you know. But yeah, you're right. So... But I always tell my kids, as much as I love him, he is not the person that defines who I am.

[00:09:12] So if for some reason my husband was to lose his mind and decide, Amanda, I don't want to be with you anymore. I'm leaving. I would not miss a beat. And I mean that. Like, they kind of always look at me shot. I have... I have my own education. I have my own career. I'd be sad for them for the loss of family unit. But I know what I bring to the table. And I know my husband's really lucky to have me, as I'm lucky to have him. But he does not define who I am as a person, nor my... Like, I...

[00:09:42] My self-worth, if that makes sense. He doesn't define my self-worth. And so I don't look to him for self-worth. I love him, and I'm grateful that he's a loving and amazing husband. But I know what I bring to the table, and I know who I am in the world. And that is what I'm trying to teach my children. That no matter... Even me, I will fail my children. As much as I don't want to, I will at some point not be good enough, especially in the teenage years. You hear that a lot as a parent in the teenage years of, you know, you just don't measure up.

[00:10:12] You're never good enough. But I hope that my human frailties and my weaknesses that I bring into this relationship doesn't define who they are in the world either, and that they navigate to the places that they feel best. As a mother, I do my best to educate of what I think is best for their path. But that doesn't mean that that's what's best for them, right? And they are going to have to find that themselves.

[00:10:39] As much as I'm trying to create that independence, they are at one point going to have to do it themselves. I have a daughter right now who's out in the world. She's 19. She's navigating adulthood. And she's not doing everything the way that I would do it. She's not at all taking some paths the way that I would take it. But the one thing that I admire about her is she's doing it on her own, right? She's doing it on her own, her own terms. She's making her mistakes on her own.

[00:11:08] It's hard as a mom to sit back and watch that because I want to protect her from certain things. But she's figuring out where she stands in the world. And if you're going back to thriving, the word thriving, what makes her thrive? So I've been thinking about this. So we're watching a lot of Ray Donovan. Do you ever see that series, Ray Donovan? No, I haven't. I don't get to watch a lot of TV. No, no. Well, you've got too much time.

[00:11:38] You've got too much time on your hands. The other way around. You've got too much on your hands, right? Yeah. The agency. You've got your kids, right? Yeah. You've got your husband. Right. You see some of those people that are like, I never watch TV. I want to watch TV. I'm a TV. I would love it. It has nothing to do. I'm going to get there one day. I'm going to get back there. Okay. So Ray Donovan. I was watching Ray Donovan the other night.

[00:12:05] And it doesn't really matter what the film, the series itself is about. That's a whole rabbit hole. I first resisted Ray Donovan. And now I can't resist it. It's like we're catching up on seven seasons. You know, like we don't watch any live, pretty much any live TV.

[00:12:29] So at one point, one of Ray's brothers has had a breakup with his girlfriend. And he is going all out to try and get the girlfriend back by telling her that she completes him. You know, that he's nothing without her.

[00:12:57] And he's layering all this stuff on, right? And I'm thinking that is not an attractive way. That is not going to pull. That's not going to pull. It's very codependent behavior, right? Oh, is that what codependent means? All right. I've heard this word codependent, but I didn't know what it meant. Thank you. Right. I get it now. Yeah. I think, I mean, there's more, there's more definition to the codependency.

[00:13:25] You see a lot of people in the helping field, including social work and nursing and things like that, that are codependent. They always have to be the savior or rescuer of people. You see a lot of people who have addicts in their life that have codependent behavior because they want to save that person. So it's the same mentality of like, that someone, it's a romantic mentality. I mean, it sounds great for someone to sit there and say, you complete me. I cannot do life without you, you know.

[00:13:55] But really what happens when people, people grow apart and they move on. And if your whole definition of who you are as a person is wrapped up in another person, you're going to be disappointed. And no matter how strong and great your relationship is. Um, like I said, I, I've been with my husband 23 years. We have an incredible relationship, one that's very fulfilling, but at the end of the day, I know who I am and what I bring to the table. And that's what I strive for my children to know.

[00:14:25] Cause I think those create just incredible adults that are go-getters. And, um, and I don't mean go-getters as in like they're busy. I mean, go-getters as in the things that make them thrive and bring them happiness. Yeah. As I was watching Ray Donovan and this, um, codependent behavior from Ray's brother, uh, what, what actually tripped for me, what, what it, what it, the, the, the click that went

[00:14:53] off on, uh, with me was how I was with, uh, a, a girl that, that I really had on a pedestal. Oh yeah. Early, early twenties that I was, yeah, uh, uh, obsessed with and how, I mean, I never laid it on as thick as Ray Donovan's brother was doing, but my behavior was very needy.

[00:15:21] It was, it was, it was very needy and that pushed her away. And I, I was also thinking about how the girlfriend I dated for a couple of months, who was the, you know, who, yeah, who I dealt in, dated before the woman that's now my wife, um, how she

[00:15:45] had me on a pedestal and like, she had me as this superhero and I couldn't, my, my self-concept wasn't there. I didn't see myself like that and I couldn't hack it. I couldn't hack it. So I put, I picked that, um, I pushed her away. Yeah. Yeah. I think the technical word is dumped. I dumped her. Do you use that word in, in the sound? Yeah, we do.

[00:16:15] We do. Okay. Yeah. Well, you have dumpsters, don't you? You have dumpsters. Yeah. We do. We don't use that word dumpsters. This is, this is where Ray, this is where dead bodies are normally found in Ray Donovan and other cop shows. We call them skips, right? Skips. Okay. I was about to say, what do you call them? I was trying to think. Right. Okay. So if you have dumpsters, obviously you have dumps. Silly. Yes. Silly question. Right. Yeah.

[00:16:40] Um, and, and as I'm talking about all this, uh, as we're talking about emotional self, uh, self-sufficiency, um, and, you know, we're talking mainly on a, uh, on a romantic level, we've been talking about it. And I, those are the examples I've been given. I'm thinking about mums. Yeah. Oh yeah. I'm thinking about birth mums. I'm thinking about mums. I'm thinking about birth mums.

[00:17:07] And, you know, like you, you, you, you can't, you know, you couldn't have said to your son at 15 months, uh, well, actually I want you to be self-sufficient young man. Right. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah. What's the jargon? Age appropriate. Right. Age appropriate. And you're not going to use that sort of language with them anyway.

[00:17:26] But I'm seeing, uh, I'm seeing a, um, uh, I'm seeing a fundamental kind of devil's advocate for an adoptee that's listening to this. Yeah. Yeah. You know, um, and I'm thinking what? Like, I, I, I miss, I still miss my birth mom. I, I wish I hadn't been adopted.

[00:17:56] I, I, I felt I, you know, I grew up in, I was dropped off at the wrong house is something that I've heard. Um, uh, I've heard it from, uh, interviewed an adoptee earlier on today. And he said that he realized, I think he was about 20 that he realized that he was, his job was to keep his adoptive mom happy. Yeah. So, um, which is clearly not very emotionally self-sufficient.

[00:18:24] His adoptive mom wasn't like that, but I'm trying to, I'm kind of grasping around here for a, for a, for a question. Um, but how, how can we say to adoptees, you need to be emotionally self-sufficient, uh,

[00:18:47] rather than seeking validation, seeking security, seeking whatever it is, seeking from your birth mom. Yeah. Yeah. That's like, that sounds like a really hard thing. Yeah. Well, first of all, I want to address, I obviously, I do not know what it's like to be an adoptee. I know what it's like to be an adoptive mother.

[00:19:15] And I know what it's like to have an adopt adoptive agency. And I've seen a lot of adoptions, but I've never been adopted. So I don't want to, I don't want to take that away from someone that's experienced it and act like I've walked in their shoes or felt the feelings that they felt. Because I feel like when we do that, then we're just cutting the rug out from under someone that's feeling pretty deep emotions. But if we look at it from a general standpoint, relationships are relationships.

[00:19:43] When, when I do therapy, because I also have a therapy practice, sometimes we focus on the fact that it doesn't matter what the relationship is. Relationships have same patterns and same, um, kind of rhythms to them, whether it's your pattern with your mother, your pattern with your partner. That doesn't mean when I say they have certain patterns and, um, things in them, I understand that a relationship with your mother is different than a relationship with your partner. But what I mean is the elements that exist within relationship. We have to have healthy boundaries, right? We have to have healthy connections.

[00:20:12] We have to, um, have attachment. Those are elements that exist within every relationship, right? So when I say that you have to know your own self-worth outside of that, that doesn't mean that you don't bring those connections or attachments forward. That doesn't mean that you don't honor or desire that relationship. But regardless of how another person views you or treats you or has a lack of response,

[00:20:39] we have to know our self-worth that goes beyond because parents are imperfect, including birth and adoptive. And we're imperfect beings bringing our baggage and relationship, our baggage into that relationship, excuse me. So knowing that you can look at your birth family or your birth mother, your birth grandparent, and understand that they bring in perfections. And that does not define who you are as a person.

[00:21:08] And, um, unfortunately, I think I've seen, I can't know, but I've seen adoptees look for that running to your mom in a field moment and hugging and embracing and everything being explained of why they were given up for adoption and all of that making sense. And I think very few people get that. And so if very few people are going to get that moment, then how do you move forward and navigate

[00:21:37] that your worth has nothing to do with that person's choices or that person's weaknesses? I think it's a, sometimes for some people, it's a lifelong pursuit. It comes naturally to others and it doesn't. I have four children. All of them have been adopted. I have one that her worth, she just knows who she is. She was born that way. She came in the world knowing that way. She's been that way from day one.

[00:22:00] And I have another one that is lost and struggles despite my best efforts and to get her connected. And I, I don't know the answer for her. I think that she's going to have to find the answer on her own of what her self-worth comes from. Um, so I understand for me to sit there and go, you guys just get over it, have self-worth that that's easier said than done, right? That there's been a detachment there.

[00:22:26] So, but I do think that if you want to navigate life in a healthy manner, it's when you find your self-worth and understand that no one can tell you what your worth is. Um, I did this example the other day. If I held up a hundred dollars and said, do you want this hundred dollars? Would you want it? If I said it's yours free and clear, no strings attached. You can have it. Would you want it? Right.

[00:22:53] What if I went and put that hundred dollars and I walked all over it and I stomped on it? Does it lose its worth? Is it no longer worth a hundred dollars? Yeah. I've heard this. Yeah. You want it. Yeah. Yeah. You still want it. No matter where the hundred dollars has been. I mean, heck, some people would be so desperate for a hundred dollars that I could go put it in a pile of dog poop and they'll be like, I'll just clean it off. I want the hundred dollars. It's still worth a hundred dollars.

[00:23:20] And so I think when we understand that no matter what we have done or we've been through, we are still worth something. We're, we're worth more than a hundred dollars, way more than a hundred dollars. Then when we understand no matter what we've experienced in life or done or the choices that we've made, that we are still of great worth. And that's, that's what we're trying to get people to. Right. And it's hard. Sometimes it's a lifelong pursuit.

[00:23:50] Yeah. We have to see it for ourselves. Exactly. And I think it goes back to the relationships that you talked about. We often talk about relationships. I see so many times that mothers birth adopted, lose themselves in their children in the sense of they sit there and say, you mean, you mean all of them? Yeah. Biological.

[00:24:16] Every, I see mothers that they put everything they are into parenthood, right? Everything they are into motherhood. We've somehow glorified this, that we've somehow in society of you're a good mother. If you lose yourself as a person and that you've sacrificed all. And I don't get that mentality because we raise our children to leave us. That's exactly what we raise our children to do is to eventually, just like we compare it

[00:24:44] to birds, fly the nest and go. So as much as I love my children and I think, oh, I don't want them to leave. If they're 45 still sitting in my house, I don't want that. I want them. And I mean it in the sense of not because my doors aren't open. I want them to experience life. I want them to travel. I want them to fall in love. I want them to have families of their own. So I, I see mothers do the opposite of where once their kid leaves the nest, they look around

[00:25:12] and think either if they're married, I don't know this partner anymore. I don't love this partner anymore. Are they, if they're single, they look around and go, I don't know who I am. Who am I outside of motherhood? And they just don't know how to exist. And then again, healthy boundaries do not move forward. They're in their, the lives of their, you know, kids and they can't even get married without them being involved. And again, who you are as a person has nothing to do with the outside relationships.

[00:25:42] I, um, I had a big, a big eye opener for me on that subject. So I, I spotted a mum who does define herself through motherhood. And then the next thought that came to me was, well, I decide I, this was like 20 years ago. Um, I define myself by business. Yeah.

[00:26:07] It's, it's just a different, it's still an identity, but it's just a, it's a different thing and maybe, maybe it's a gender, uh, uh, you know, like a gender thing or a gender stereotype that that's what, you know, but it's a society, maybe it's a societal cultural thing that's just picked up, um, the difference.

[00:26:30] So, um, I want to go back to what you talked about with, uh, you were kind of on the subject of reunion. Yeah. You were saying that, uh, the kind of, uh, the, the, the, the, the reunion fairy tale isn't, isn't a common occurrence. I think that's what you said. Yeah. You don't, we don't get all the answers. You don't get all the answers that you want. You don't. Right.

[00:26:58] There's, there's a, um, there may be a honeymoon period, but what have you seen around that, uh, that, that space? What have you, what have you experienced? What, how do you see that? I think, you know, in the beginning when a family, when a, a bio parent and an adoptee or, you know, their bio kid, I mean, has that reunion. I do think it's all honeymoon period, right? It's exciting. It's exciting to see where you came from. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[00:27:28] I think cultural society has especially become fascinated where we come from. That's why we have all these 23 and me and these DNA tests. We want to see our lineage and our heritage. We want to see that we're 1% Italian or, you know, whatever. And so I, I think that's a natural human curiosity is to understand where we came from. Where do I get my eyes from? Why do I have the certain personality quirks? So I think in the beginning, what I've seen is that it's exciting. It's the new.

[00:27:52] And then it either bad habits, generational trauma resurfaces, and you see it fizzle out, obviously. It depends what kind of, what, what was kind of preceded the reason for adoption. Sometimes we see a young mother that gave up her child for adoption and they have an open adoption and that relationship moves forward as kind of a second aunt, right?

[00:28:22] And those are healthy connections. I have a daughter, her high school, I mean, her college roommate got pregnant. She has given her child up for adoption. She's still very much connected to her daughter. She sees her daughter every week. She has a great relationship with the family that's adopted her. But the world that I work in is where parents have had their rights terminated and they didn't get a choice in the matter. And that can be very hard because there's a lot of dynamics to that.

[00:28:51] One, the family can feel like, we didn't want this. We wanted you. We did nothing wrong. They blame government agencies. They blame, you know, outside resources. So you have a child that's dealing with all those emotions, right? Like, why did you take me from my family? My family was innocent. You also have children that feel that they caused the separation a lot of times because either they said something that they shouldn't have at school or if they would have just, you know,

[00:29:21] not, if they would have not told the investigator the truth, they'd still be with their family. So they deal with those guilty emotions that they caused the separation. That's the world that I kind of exist in. But really at the root of it, there's been generational unhealthy boundaries, generational trauma that's all resurfacing and coming to a boil. And that's why we're stepping in, right?

[00:29:46] So I think when they go back, if they've been put in a healthy adoptive family that has helped them navigate and develop healthy boundaries, that oftentimes when adoptees go back and they see this generational trauma that's happened, two paths to me emerge. I'm not saying that this, I mean, it's hard to talk about these things because we're very much stereotyping here. This is not everybody's path, but generally two paths emerge.

[00:30:11] Either they realize that that's very unhealthy and they just can't exist in it, or two, they feel that they need to save their family and become the savior of their family. And so they go back and they're weighted down quite a bit of trying to save something that is beyond their expertise and is not really their issue to save. That doesn't mean that they can't have relationships, but they just don't know how to.

[00:30:36] That's a very complex trauma that you have to navigate through, that you're navigating through your own complex trauma. So either they cut off their relationship or they just get drowned in it and feel that in order to have a connection, they have to exist within that trauma with them, which a lot of times means drugs, right? That's the world I exist in. I don't exist in the private adoption world. Professionally speaking, where it's like a young mother that picks their kids.

[00:31:03] I'm dealing in the complexities of trauma. Yeah. That's a lot. Sorry. That's a lot. It is, yeah. You blew my mind. It's a lot to unpack, right? You blew my mind on that one, Amanda. I'm just, I'm seeing something about dependency between, you know, or definition.

[00:31:31] Like a mum defining herself by her kids. Yeah. And I'm thinking the other way around, right? An adoptee or adoptees defining themselves by their mum. Yeah. A biological mum.

[00:31:54] And I haven't got a question on that, other than that seems like an interesting thing to explore. And about, I have got an angle that's slightly safer. Yeah. That I'm slightly safer on. Yeah. Unless, can you draw anything out of that? Are you seeing any similarities, right?

[00:32:20] So, a mum defining herself by motherhood and her kids. And a kid defining him or herself by their mum. I mean, the biggest one that I've seen is, like, when a child, you know, sees that, and it depends where they are in the adoption process. How old they were when they were removed. How old they are when they reconnect.

[00:32:50] But sometimes they feel that they need to make the same mistakes as their parents in order to truly understand what they went through. So, if you had a child that was removed due to drug usage, it's almost like the child feels that well. In order to identify what my mum was experiencing, I need to go through the same choices as her. I need to make the same choices. That's going to be subconscious, though, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, definitely. Oh, yeah. It's not like a very conscious thought.

[00:33:19] It's just something that they just kind of do. Yeah. I'm thinking of myself, right? Like, so I had to... My dad ran his own business. Mum and dad ran their own business. So, I needed to do it. Yeah. That... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very subconscious thing. I don't think anybody consciously thinks, let me do drugs, you know? But it is. It's something about them that they want to understand.

[00:33:48] Well, why couldn't they just get over this? Why... You know, it's almost like... You know that... I don't know if you have this thing in the UK, but they're like, you know, if you lay with dogs, you'll get fleas. It's almost like that mentality. Like, I need to be amongst my people to really know and understand who I am as a person. And so then you have children that when they enter into that relationship again with their biofamily, feel like, in order for me to understand, like, I need to experience the same things as them.

[00:34:18] And so it's... To me, that's the vice versa, right? A mom that lives for her kids and kids that live for their mom. And you kind of hit the nail on the head a while ago when you were talking about it, that that person felt that their mom's happiness was dependent on them. And so they obviously felt the need to operate under whatever standard that their child put on them. I teach a group.

[00:34:46] And a lot of times when I do group, I talk about labels because I want to tie this into a mom living for her kids and a kid living for her mom. So I teach this thing where I play this silly little game. I'll take that, hello, my name is Tag, and I'll put it on... I usually do it with teens. I put it on the teen's forehead. And it says something silly, like, I'm the president of the United States. I'm Barbie. I invented Post-its. And we, as a group, have to go around and help everybody figure out what is labeled on their head. And it's a fun game.

[00:35:15] They think it's silly. But what I go back to in talking about is how labels can be very hard, even good labels. If you think about the definition of, well, you're a smart kid, right? And if I adapt that label, I'm a smart kid, what happens when that's challenged and I make a D on a math test? But I've been labeled as the smart kid in the room. And now that label, does that label still exist? I just made a D.

[00:35:44] And how hard that is when we allow people to label us, right? And put that standard and that label on us, and then we're not able to perform. And so it's usually, like I said, with teens who are having the world define who they are. Because for the world, we're always going to be... We're never going to measure up. We're always going to be too fat, too skinny, too tall, too short, too light, too big ears, too whatever. The world is going to tear us down. Social media is great for that.

[00:36:12] If you look at famous influencers across Instagram, TikTok, once they get too popular, it's like the world can't deal with it. And they have to find something on them, right? They have to dig up some dirt, a time that they were in high school and they said something wrong. So I feel that applies here. If your mom is making you, well, you need to be all these things for me and my self-worth and my self-esteem, then the flip side can be said.

[00:36:39] That a kid is going to look to any of their parents and be like, you need to be this for my self-esteem. And that's where the failure is going to happen. That's what I'm going back to about self-sufficiency, that our parents, people are going to fail us. My husband has failed me. We go back to my husband. He has not been... We have gone into arguments and he's not been the person that I wanted him to be in the argument. He wasn't the guy that you see on the romance movies that are just like...

[00:37:08] I don't believe that any mom is ever wrong. Maybe that's a different podcast. Maybe we can discuss that. Yeah. People fail us. Yeah. So this is where I want to go. I want to... Something happened yesterday that I'm going to kind of play with a little bit here about self-sufficiency. And I'm on firmer ground here, right?

[00:37:31] But I'm looking for you to maybe create a bit of an earthquake underneath me, right? That's why we'll learn more, right? We'll learn more. So emotional self-sufficiency could be summed up in the idea or the truth that feelings are an inside job. Yeah. Yeah. To this point, yeah. I think so.

[00:38:01] Yeah. It could be, right? So when I get into this area, because it's an area that I used to, before I got in the adoption space, I spent a lot of time suggesting that to kids in schools, in fun workshops about happiness and about thoughts and feelings. And they all got it, right? Right. They all got the truth.

[00:38:31] Because they hadn't yet bought into a societal rule, a culture, right? So there's a, there's a, I've been swimming at the same swimming pool for like 20 years, 23, 24 years now, right? And for as long as I can remember, there's been one particular volunteer lady on reception on a Monday.

[00:39:00] And so she was there the other day. It's when, we're doing this on a Thursday, right? I saw her on a Monday. And I, I asked her how she was, right? And she, she, she, her head, literally, I'm facing straight onto her like we're looking at each other on the Zoom camera. Her, her, her head turned 90 degrees to the left to look out of the window.

[00:39:31] And she came back saying, yeah, yeah, the sun's shining. I'm having a great day. So she had to check. She didn't know her emotion. Yeah. Until she checked the weather. Yeah.

[00:39:50] Now, this is the example that I use when, when we go anywhere near this kind of inside out feelings or an inside out, out job, because it's a lot easier to play with a stupid example like that than it is to do with a kind of a one saying, oh, you know, like, so here's an idea. Finding my birth mother won't make me happy. Right. Finding, finding my birth mother.

[00:40:20] I can't be happy until I find my birth mother. And, and that's not going to be a conscious choice either, is it? That's not going to be a conscious decision either. Such as I need to, so we talked about kids having to repeat their parents' mistakes. Yeah. Feeling, subconsciously doing that stuff. So what do you make of all that lot?

[00:40:47] One of my favorite quotes that I strive to live by, remember, we're all working on bettering ourselves and getting to there, is happiness has rarely to do with the circumstances of our life and everything to do with the focus of our life. So her sitting there looking out the window, she's circumstance focused. That's what I would have told her. Like, we're going to have rainy days. We're going to have cloudy days. We're going to have stormy days.

[00:41:12] And that really has to do with, if you take that quote and apply it to your life, that should not affect how we're doing. We shouldn't have to look at the weather and go, oh, I'm having a good day. Right? Our focus should be what, so when I think about focus, I think about no matter what's going on in my world, my focus is who am I? What am I developing? My focus on my relationship with my husband.

[00:41:40] My focus is on my relationship with my kids. My focus is on my faith. I don't want to necessarily always bring that in. People have different definitions of that. My focus is on growing myself and stretching myself. So that shouldn't change because that's where my focus is, despite all these circumstances that are happening around me. Now, have I perfected that yet? Absolutely not. I have not perfected that. That's a work in progress. I let circumstances affect me.

[00:42:09] But that's why I love that quote so much, is that happiness rarely has to do with the circumstances of our life and everything to do on the focus. So if we apply that to children that are adoptees, people that have been adopted, you cannot change your circumstance, no matter how much we want to. You can't change what's happened to you, but what you can change is the focus of your life. And so I can't define that for you. Some people's focus is helping kids.

[00:42:39] It's coming back and being a foster parent and helping kids. Some people's focus is to help animals. Some people's focus is to help the environment. And those are all great and incredible and worthy causes. And so I think like going back to that, bringing the adoptees from it, you can't help why your mom gave you up, right? We don't know that. We haven't walked her shoes or her path or what your dad, I think we focus on moms a lot, but why dad wasn't able to be present.

[00:43:08] All we know that in that moment, they were doing the best with what they were given in life. If you, I have that belief system that in any moment, people are doing the best with what they can, given what they've been given, right? And I think if we have that assumption, we're able to move smoother through life. But like I said, I think that's a quote to live by. I think we all have quotes that we live by. I have a couple that keep me going. Yeah, you're on that. My other favorite is comfort is the enemy of progress.

[00:43:38] If you're comfortable, you're not progressing. And that helps me get out of my comfort zone quite a bit. My last favorite quote is the grass is greener where you water it. That is my ultimate quote is like I want to get it like on this big billboard in my house is the grass is greener where you water it. So where are you watering? Where are you putting your time and your effort and your focus? Because we often think the grass is greener on the other side.

[00:44:07] And maybe I don't, like I said, I don't ever want to speak for an adoptee because I've not been there. But maybe we think life would have just been better if I stayed with my birth family. I don't know, you know, but I can tell you wherever we're putting our time, effort, our water, so as to speak, is where we're going to see things produce and things come of it. So if we're always focused on this relationship that for whatever reason had a disconnect, that's where we're putting our sole focus. How are we progressing?

[00:44:37] How are we moving forward? And that doesn't mean that we don't put weight there. We don't visit it. That's definitely a connection that was disconnected. That's hard. But yeah. Here's one for you. You've just mentioned you've just catalyzed one of my favorite sayings with what you just said down there. So here's one. I think you'll like this. Okay. The past is a place of reference, not a place of residence.

[00:45:07] I love that. See, I love that kind of stuff. I think quotes like that are in my hard moments. Those are my three quotes that I go to. So maybe I'll add that one because we all have hard moments where we question. And even me talking about my self-worth that we are, it's shaken, right? Our self, something does something to shake it, but it's our job to fortify it and strengthen it and protect it. Yeah. Our self-worth that is.

[00:45:37] So here's one for you. This is an idea I've heard from one of my mentors and I'm just going to play with it a little bit with you to see what you think. So we're talking about feelings being an inside job. Yeah. Yeah. And yet there is a honeymoon, often a honeymoon period in reunion. Often. Yeah. Often. Sometimes. I don't know what the percentage is.

[00:46:06] Let's say sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah. And so the adoptee and the birth parent feels good. Yeah. Feels good. Okay. So we look at that and we think, well, that person completed me, made me happy.

[00:46:36] Yeah. Okay. Well, if that's the case, then that would last. What was actually happening is all the focus has been on making this reunion happen. Yeah.

[00:47:00] And then that the weight is lifted. Right. Off our shoulders. And we have our answers. We have our reunion. We have our answers. And therefore, it's our happiness is revealed by the event. So it's not caused. It's not caused by the event.

[00:47:29] It's revealed by the event. Does that make any sense? As I say, I'm playing. I'm playing with this. Yeah. I mean, I think you're definitely hitting some of the feelings surrounding reunions. Right. Of why they feel good.

[00:47:50] And I think when the thing that can get mixed up is when I say that feelings are an inside job, that I'm not saying connections aren't important. Right. They are. Connections are what gives us some of our self-worth in the sense of as we grow and progress throughout life, if we've had healthy relationships, it helps us form healthy self-worth. Right. And no one should be an island. We learn that. No one's an island.

[00:48:19] No one exists as an island. Connections are important. They're important for ourselves. They're important for other people. So I don't look at when we feel those emotions of like, when I see my mom, right? I'm happy. I'm happy to see my mom. My mom lives 10 hours away from me right now. Me and you talked about previously how big Texas is. She still lives in the state of Texas and she's 10, 11 hours away from me. I'm happy to see my mom. I mean, I get excited. If I was to find out today that I'm going to drive to my mom, I would be elated.

[00:48:49] But I would still be happy and elated if I still couldn't go see my mom today, right? Like I live far away. I have to function throughout life. So I think it's the same thing with reunions is if we build up in our mind that this single person that's been missing from our lives is the sole connection to happiness, we are setting ourselves up for failure. Does that mean that we can't be excited about that reunion? No, absolutely. We can be excited.

[00:49:15] Does that mean that we can't have happy feelings surrounding that reunion or even that opportunity to connect and hopefully have a connection going forward? I think we can have all that. But I think if we look at this one person, that's going to be the ultimate key to our success and happiness. Like you kind of talked about that girlfriend you dated. She just put you on this pedestal.

[00:49:41] One, we're setting up there for failure because they're going to fail us and we're setting up ourselves for failure. Yeah, it didn't work either way. Thank you for helping me see my bit of simplicity and black and whitedness around this. I think sometimes maybe I push this stuff too far. I push a single line a little bit too far. Did I tell you I'm seeing a somatic experiencer lady? Did I tell you about that?

[00:50:11] No. Yeah. We were talking. I saw her last week and we had some big shifts. I had some big shifts of stuff, some pre-verbal stuff because that's why I go to see a somatic experiencer. So I'm looking for, right, is there some pre-verbal stuff that I'm not conscious of? Like, let's let that go to use a catchphrase.

[00:50:38] And she made a distinction, like a really simple distinction that I hadn't seen before about humanity. Right. Humanity versus wholeness. Yeah. You know, like it was, it obviously didn't, I haven't got into words yet. Yeah.

[00:51:07] Still percolating. But I think it was, sometimes I can go a little bit too far with logic. Yeah. And I can forget, I can get, I can forget the humanity in there. I know exactly what you mean by going too far with logic.

[00:51:29] I, I think I've struggled with that myself that I like, I go, I make it too deep, if that makes sense. Like I'm overthinking it. And to kind of give credit to my husband, he's incredible about just kind of simplifying what I'm over there, just sometimes letting spiral out of control in my head. Because I'm a very naturally anxious person. It makes me really good at my job.

[00:51:57] I'm very good at my job because I naturally think of all these scenarios that could happen. And I'm really good about setting up, making it more safe or not as liable. Because that's kind of what I do within my actual professional job is I keep foster and adoptive homes in compliance. So because I'm an naturally anxious person, when an incident arises, I can figure out how to combat it 5 million different ways and make it to where there's not as much liability.

[00:52:25] But because I'm naturally that person, I can overthink things quite a bit. And I know what you mean by, I love that you said that you haven't been able to put to words that experience. Because sometimes I think there's experiences in our lives that we do have to think deeper on and connect and really let it permeate in our life. But then I think there's times that we think too deep. So I love that you said that, that you're like, I kind of go too deep into logic.

[00:52:53] Because I think I have a tendency to do that sometimes as myself. And sometimes the answer is simple. Can I share a little story about my dad on the subject of what you just said? Not just the last bit you said, but the bit before. It's probably the only time I've seen tears in his eyes, right?

[00:53:24] Well, I saw it. Unfortunately, my dad died eight years ago. So this was about 12 years ago, maybe something like that. Yeah, yeah. And he was saying that he was always on guard, like you were saying, right?

[00:53:46] So he said, you know, I was always on my toes, I think was the words that he used. I was always on my toes against potential things going on. And he said, and that was good for me. I saw that as a good thing. Yeah.

[00:54:14] That stopped bad things happening. And I said to him, because I'm the same, right? Yeah. This is my dad. This is my adopted dad. Yeah. So there must be some, you know, is it a coincidence? Is it nurture? You know, who knows? And I said, yeah, that's me too, dad.

[00:54:42] And that was probably the case. But didn't it get in the way of you being happy? And I swear tears came to his eyes. And that's the only time I've ever seen it. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. Yeah. I, I understand what I think it can.

[00:55:08] I think it can get in the way of happiness because you're always like how he talks about on his toes, on guard. So you're kind of. Hypervigilance is the word. Yeah. Yeah. Hypervigilance. Yeah. Because how can you enjoy something when you're hypervigilant? I'm working. I feel like in my, I'm, I'm quite a, I'm in my 40s now. Right. And I feel like I've kind of started working on compartmentalizing it to where I'm not always bringing that hypervigilance forward.

[00:55:34] But it's something that I've definitely had to consciously work on because if I'm on vacation with you for it, so to speak, like let's say me and you went on holiday. I like how you guys say that. So I want to use that phrase holiday. I'm not a hypervigilant person. I'm like, whatever. I'm like a go with the flow. I don't care. You know, but when it comes to like my professional or even when I was in college, my academic life, very hypervigilant, very perfectionist, very.

[00:56:02] We, um, if my kids, like with my kids, I feel like I'm a, I'm not a gentle parent. I'm not going to lie. I'm not a gentle parent. I'm a pretty strict parent, but at the same time, I'm a fun parent. I'm the type of parent. I'll go toilet paper house with you. Like let's pick one of your friends and go toilet paper for their house. It's going to be fun. Right. Um, I'm the type of parent that is my, I want to hear about my girl's first kiss. Like at 15, when my daughter had the first kiss, I was like, how was it? You know, is it everything you thought?

[00:56:32] So again, I'm not like that every aspect of my life. So I think you have to be part of it. And my dad would go from hypervigilance, uh, to extreme, extreme careless, carelessness. Do you know what I mean? Maybe it's just a quality we, people like us know. Well, you know, so yeah, he would, he would go, he would go, he would go from penny pinching

[00:57:02] to splurging. Right. So we, he sold a business. Oh yeah. He sold a business and, um, the, uh, the lawyer told him to spend a little bit of the money, get it out of his system. Right. Yeah. So he, he, he went and, uh, he went to a car showroom and the guy said he couldn't have the car basically. Um, and so my dad had to hide it and he just, you know, it's burnt it.

[00:57:29] Um, yeah, you have, so some, some sales, my dad was basically a creative salesperson. Some, some salespeople, um, are great buyers and some people, some salespeople are really crap buyers, you know? So it's an interesting, so this guy said to him, uh, yeah, so you're looking at the car, um, can I help you? And the guy said, yeah, yeah. And, um, so my dad's, I'm interested in, I like, really like the wheels. Uh, and, um, this guy said, do you, do you work? This was in London, right?

[00:58:00] Uh, so with a hoity-toity accent, the guy said, do you, do you work for one of the embassies, sir? And my dad goes, no, I've got a small business up in London. And the guy said, uh, so well, actually we've got this car in, you know, to, to, there's a few embassies around here in, um, in, um, uh, Mayfair, wherever, part of it. Uh, and, uh, we got it in for, for those. So it was almost like he had to tell the guy that, tell my dad that he couldn't have the

[00:58:29] car, which meant him, you know, and we're back, and we're back to the, we're back to this girl. See, this girl used to keep me keen, you know, keep, what did they say? Uh, keep them, keep them, make, keep them keen, make them mean, treat them mean, keep them, what was it? Treat them mean, keep them keen. Oh, I've never heard of that. I love that. That's hilarious. That's, that's a suggestion to, to, to women. Okay. And men, but I think it's largely more about, um.

[00:58:59] Keep them on their toes a little bit, right? Keep them guessing. Keep them on their toes, yeah. So, um, is there anything else that you've want to, uh, you want to share? No, I, I mean, there's so much to talk about in the adoption world. I have been in the adoption world since 2009, and I still feel like I learned something new every time I train, every time I interact with any of our families. I think there's a lifelong learning in this field and category.

[00:59:29] And like I said, I, my goal is never to invalidate what has been the experience of, of an adoptee. So I hope me talking about being self-sufficient and emotions are those connections or things like that. I hope I have not taken away from anybody what they're feeling or what they've been through. Um, I've not walked your path and journey on your side.

[00:59:53] And so I never want to feel like someone's experience isn't valid or what they bring to the table. I think when we stop looking at other people's perspectives and we only look at our own is when we're really doing a disservice to ourselves. So I loved our conversation. I think that there should be always more conversations around this. Um, I enjoy talking with you. I'm sad that our time is coming to an end, but I know we got other things to do and hopefully we can talk in the future more. Yeah.

[01:00:22] I'm about half an hour late reading my mom. So, you know. Oh, you gotta go. You gotta go. Moms are important. You're going to get me in trouble with your mom. I'm going to blame you. Yes. Blame me. Give it up. Thanks. Thanks, Amanda. Um, I'm not, I'm not going to, I wouldn't even attempt the surname again. You know. No worries. Thanks listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care. Bye. Thanks.