Ending The Craving To Heal With Sara Hathaway

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. And yeah, this is the first one I've done for a couple of weeks, it's been away on holiday. So it feels kind of weird saying that, but yeah, out of my stride.

[00:00:16] Welcome to the show, Sara Hathaway, looking forward to our conversation today. Hello. And also a lovely distraction from email, computer health. So this is far more fun than juggling software programs, right? So we're going to talk healing as we do on the Thriving Adoptees podcast.

[00:00:45] So what does healing mean to you, Sara? I think healing in a sort of overall sense is a sense of peace, a sense of wellbeing, being content where you're at. I think healing is a journey in whatever aspect it takes for you and whatever needs healing.

[00:01:16] And I think it's something that we, in a sense, with our particular topic on being adopted, it's something that we often crave. And we often don't quite understand how we get there.

[00:01:30] We've all got a similarity when we come onto Simon's show, so it's like the podcasts, but from that everything else is different. So every story is different. And healing, you can't tick box it and say it's done, especially with this journey.

[00:01:51] And I think with Simon's story, similar to a lot of us where we were adopted in an arena where it was closed adoptions, things crop up later on in life. And then you feel, oh, right. Oh gosh, what do I do with this information?

[00:02:08] If you find your biological family or all sorts of things come up, which is the same thing that's happened to me. And it sort of does it open old wounds or does it give you new wounds?

[00:02:19] And then it's like, what do I do with these? How do I get my head around this? How do I process it? And ultimately how do I heal in a sense to become a whole person?

[00:02:30] I think that's probably one thing I've sort of wanted, possibly craved at times is to feel complete. Yeah. So and I don't think I don't know how many people feel like they do feel complete.

[00:02:47] Is that something we ever feel as a human being, let alone somebody who's been adopted? I don't think so. I think I'd probably take the view that we have life is a journey. This this life or previous lives, however you look at it.

[00:03:03] And I think with my own story, my own adoption, I've always seen my life as a jigsaw puzzle. And for me, the beginning was always elusive. It was great.

[00:03:15] There was bits missing. And then for events through life, you can hear this bits that haven't been completed and need filling in for different reasons. But I think fundamentally the beginning of our lives as adoptees is just it's that invisible thing, isn't it?

[00:03:33] We don't know. We just don't know. So you start your life with that and potentially that affects all sorts, can affect all sorts along the way. I do often think that if you are open minded, you have choices with everything in life.

[00:03:51] But so I see it as a jigsaw puzzle. And as you go through life, yes, you know this end of the jigsaw puzzle isn't complete yet because you're living it.

[00:03:59] But to start life with incompleteness through the trauma of adoption, not having any choices, obviously at that age, it's so invisible. And that's something I've only recently taken on board. And I think that's where my healing part is going now.

[00:04:18] I need to heal what I feel about finding about my biological mother and stuff, you know. So it's an ongoing process. Yeah. Wow, there's so much there. I'm at a loss to which bit to dive in.

[00:04:37] I think my gut feel on that would be to kind of zoom in, right? We're taking a big step out. You've given us a great kind of canvas. And so my next question to you then is to go from that macro big picture down into the micro.

[00:05:03] I think you've given us a great kind of perspective on the healing moments, the transformative moments. So do any particular healing moments come to mind? I think over the recent years, because over the last 18 months, this is when I've actually met or known more about my biological family.

[00:05:28] I don't know if I've ever met my biological family. I've never met my biological family, but I have siblings I didn't know existed. I have four siblings. So I think it was the healing bits.

[00:05:45] It again, it feels I'm quite a black and white thinker at times, and it does feel like bits, does feel like jigsaw bits. So I'm still very much, very proud of it, hopefully for it to work, for it to be positive.

[00:06:01] And I think the things that have helped me recently was that there was a process I actually went through long lost families to find my birth mother.

[00:06:14] That was the aim of the program. And it was said last year on the last series, complex story, as we all are, that point were knowing, having information, having the facts. It's having the facts but then

[00:06:31] obviously you then think what does that make me feel like? What does it make me, you know, when I found out stuff about my birth mother and it wasn't particularly positive, it's like okay that's the fact, this is what we know about her. She had five children and

[00:06:46] didn't really want any of them, you know, and our stories are very very different and very complex. So that's a fact, put that in so I know who she is. Does that help me with healing?

[00:06:59] It's given me information. So I think my healing would start off with information things but the big one on the emotional side was when I met my siblings. I met two of them on the

[00:07:09] program and it was very much like it is. It's you're filmed, the reaction you see is what happens at that time. It's not fake, it's real. So I had the shock of the information initially

[00:07:23] and that's like oh god but the meeting then and you could sort of pull it apart a bit and say right, you know, okay did they want to meet? You don't, that just goes out the window.

[00:07:35] It's family and we were very fortunate I think and I could only speak for myself and hopefully them that we felt the same. We wanted to meet, no one ever knew about me.

[00:07:46] I was, you know, we were the best kept secrets ever. All three of us to a certain level but luckily so I met my elder brother and my younger sister the next one down. They'd found each

[00:07:57] other 25 years ago and then there was two younger siblings which our mother kept. So they obviously found about them as well. So I was completely out of mystery at the age

[00:08:09] of 58. I came out the woodwork, you know, but to meet them the healing point for me was that physical contact. Yeah. That physical hug, that oh my god and I think with that it just

[00:08:27] that was the emotional bit. You can do all the factual bit can't you with the facts you can sort them in and you can be quite sort of with it but the emotional bit is

[00:08:34] complete different ball game. So to meet them and just literally hug the life out of somebody I think it's something you can't put into words Simon. It's it's an experience right? It is an experience, it's emotional, it's feelings, it's

[00:08:55] you yeah. It's a whole body, it's a whole body. Yeah, yeah and I know when I was given the photographs of my siblings when it was being filmed that was when it was a jolt.

[00:09:07] It was very much and I felt something but I can't describe what that was because I'd never had it before so then you can look at you can take the negative side of it saying like the longing

[00:09:19] of not finding something I've never had all my life is like that's just shocking when I'm part of family and whatever else but because of the genetic bit I don't know what you call it

[00:09:31] but the knowing I belonged was just there again you can't describe so it's very much the emotional bit and to have a hug for my big brother to go yeah your big brother's here to give you

[00:09:44] a cutch while that I was on the floor on the floor that's to me that made everything positive, made everything oh my god this has just changed my world. Yeah so that's a pivotal moment for me. Have you given any thought to what was happening

[00:10:07] in there have you kind of tried to because you talked about being a black and white thinker and talking about the rationality and have you done any kind of unpacking of what was happening

[00:10:19] or have you just gone with the flow? I think because it's still fairly early days fairly early days I've gone more with the flow yeah and the acceptance I think because we we genuinely feel the same and want to get to know each other we completely totally accept

[00:10:48] we're siblings the three of us you know so I think that I haven't necessarily unpicked because I think the security I felt from that could be fragile if I did. Yeah okay

[00:11:05] what's coming to my mind is this you know the book that a lot of people talk about the body keeps the score right and you're talking about you know a physical thing a physical experience a hug yeah and so there's the sense to me was

[00:11:28] that score that your body has kept has been released may have I mean I'm just obviously I'm just speculating right but what we try and do on the podcast is kind of unpick the healing

[00:11:45] stuff so that other people can learn yeah right and I'm in the place that I'm in at the moment I'm doing somatic stuff ah oh that'd be interesting yes I'm interested in that

[00:11:59] I'm doing somatic stuff but I can't actually um well I'm I'm aware of two half siblings but they're on my birth father's side and he he he blew me out um last year right he so sorry

[00:12:20] if you this doesn't make any sense to American people this is British British metaphor he he we had a brief I had a brief conversation with him and he said don't call me again

[00:12:30] right so that's what mean by blowing me out he's saying I don't want any further contact so I could go after that those two half siblings I've done some research and I know how I could

[00:12:43] get into in touching if I really wanted to but I don't want to upset the cat and the apple cat I want to not say the apple cat and I don't know whether and there

[00:12:55] are quite a lot younger than me so and I don't think we'd have that much in common but I am meeting two uh two cousins next month so that that might give me the thing

[00:13:09] but but so I'm doing but I'm doing somatic stuff because we've got you know we're we're we're doing the somatic stuff I'm doing the somatic stuff because we've got it you know healing on five levels it seems to me right yeah so um psychological stuff emotional

[00:13:32] the feeling stuff body the physical stuff right that's what we're talking about here um and and then we've got the other areas they the kind of obviously they all cross refer they they'll cross relate to one another we've got the relationship side the social

[00:13:51] side and we've got that spiritual essence of who we are that essential part of us so looking at healing on across those five levels rather than just thinking it's psychological talking about or don't take and so what's coming up for me is okay this is the this

[00:14:10] is our pre-verbal trauma yeah that's stored in our genes according to Bessel van der Kolk and Gabor Marte and all these people and and that's what that's what's being healed so you're it's it's like a long game of whack-a-mole right so you've you've you've healed some

[00:14:31] stuff some psychological stuff you've healed some stuff emotional stuff then you've healed some other stuff it's the pre-verbal stuff um and and that's kind of what I would guess guesses going on yeah I think I think it's so deep but I think I've done

[00:14:52] is it a classic adoptee type thing you know I was I was fortunate I was adopted when we say that a lot don't we um by my mum and dad and and they were brilliant my mum

[00:15:02] was especially fantastic uh I was truly you know she what she was just you know if you drew your perfect mother I was fortunate that that was my mum and I had two adopted brothers we were

[00:15:13] all in the same playing field um so I never really visited what you've just described and over time when there was a bereavement or something and I had a little bit of counseling

[00:15:27] the professionals are always quite sharp that I never told them I was adopted unless it was just in conversation and I would do the classic adoptee but it's not an issue I'm okay

[00:15:36] thanks I've always known as adopted I've always been given permission to look if I wanted to but then you look then you realize as you start to unpick things it's the classic people pleasing and all this sort of stuff going on um but we've got it's pre it's

[00:15:51] pre-verbal yeah so yeah words for it it's pre-memory trauma so we haven't got any of it and and that's why it's deep and that's why it comes up in it's truly as far as I can gather right yeah my conversations with

[00:16:09] I haven't in a sense I haven't visited that but I think as a person as a whole I'm I'm quite I'm like a holistic therapist and and so I sort of I completely get what you're saying

[00:16:23] and I'm just starting to recognize the the trauma that the extent of that trauma of being just I was talking to my dad about it actually being removed from your birth mother so I said to him like it's nothing about how you brought me up it's nothing about

[00:16:42] my birth mother and what she was like it's that trauma of being removed from your birth mother the person that should be nurturing and be taken away and you know I did the very basic stuff because I'm learning lots and he just said I've never we'd never thought

[00:16:59] about it I thought no that's it it's it was more than just invisible isn't it that's the thing well the primal wound wasn't written until 1992 93 yeah you were adopted what 66 65 yeah 65 so

[00:17:15] you know you're 30 years ahead of it you know like I find myself saying this a lot right because we do so much complaining within the adoptees space not you and me I'm just in

[00:17:26] general right we yeah we do so much complaining but we're judging 1960s parenting on 2020 for knowledge trauma knowledge and it's just not fair right I'm so glad you said that because I yeah again I like you there are lots of forums and things that I sort of

[00:17:48] listen to and read posts and stuff and I already feel for adopted parents to be honest because they get such a rough deal um you know and I can only speak from my own experience I

[00:18:01] just thought hang on well my mum and dad decided to adopt for their own reasons and I could go into that but and you could say that we were sticking plastic kids in a way to a marriage that

[00:18:11] wasn't particularly happy but they were willing to take on three complete nuts strangers yeah yeah and I'm just thinking about what I said about complaining complaining doesn't make me feel better no no no right so you know like we're we're not I'm not holding anybody up as

[00:18:39] anybody up as paragons of virtue or whatever you know um it's just we we we you know you had this you had a great word you know craving healing well if we're craving healing if that's

[00:18:58] what we want to do if we want to heal then to what extent is um complaining going to help us along that journey no it doesn't it doesn't help at all um and I think that's that that's

[00:19:14] why I've been attracted to your your programs and your podcasts and stuff because of the positivity of what you do but I'm not positive I'm not positive I'm not trying to put a positive

[00:19:27] spin on it I just know but I just don't think being negative has ever helped me but it's looking at the bigger picture isn't it that's what I mean you look at it the bigger picture and it's a perspective it's a perspective thing yeah and you know the

[00:19:42] I talk about insights you know lead new perspectives um taking us to a different place it's perspectives that help us heal um but what you've just said to me in terms of the healing moment of the hook from your um big brother yeah I'm thinking well Simon you've

[00:20:07] Simon you've been you've completely missed that part out you know I've been taking quite a logical take on it you know like all right well it's insights time isn't the greatest healer so

[00:20:21] what is well it's it's insights but it's that that seems um trivial in in a certain at a certain level compared to the whole experience of you up in your big brother yeah I think there's probably a little bit more history to it as well

[00:20:44] because I actually lost my big but my adopted big brother tragically when he was I was 42 and literally overnight he was gone um so and he ironic in a way was my rock he was my the male model in my life that was my rock so it was

[00:21:03] significant for other reasons as well as well but they're nothing takes it away from the fact that there was you know I was given a photograph I thought what am I feeling

[00:21:15] uh and I the other thing I think has been really important for me with the healing side is the total acceptance total acceptance that we all accept that we're brothers and sisters um we don't question it we don't fight it we've had completely different lives

[00:21:37] um and we could have all gone down the trauma route of oh my god wasn't our mother did to do to do that um and write numerous books and whatever but we've we've chosen not to

[00:21:47] so you have that's why I say about choices you have choices too yeah yeah um I think ironically because I went for the program and it went through the program what happened happened it was

[00:22:01] like you know contracted in it was going to happen I didn't know when or whatever so in some ways it was fast forwarded for me what you're saying yourself about possibly

[00:22:13] meeting cousins or whatever else in a sense it was oh right we found doing it and you filmed so when we I knew when I signed up for it I had to deal with whatever it came out with

[00:22:30] um so maybe maybe that fast forwarded it because actually that was out of my control um and if it hadn't if they hadn't got any resolution then they they want to be a story

[00:22:38] you know they want to beginning and middle and an end don't they yeah they don't get an end if they don't get an end I'm guessing they don't show the start of the story you know

[00:22:49] the middle the start so that they just go it's it's very much um they you contract in they hold the contract and they don't show the start of the story you know the middle the start

[00:23:00] right so that they just go it's it's very much um you contract in they hold it they research it and they decide what they take forward and and you I think a lot of people say to me because

[00:23:14] I had my my case for a long time had it for five years first and closed it and then I won't go into it this long story I discovered some DNA family which I think on

[00:23:24] my father's side um and they they thought who are you we know all our family we've got books and books of genealogy and stuff and we're fascinated because DNA doesn't lie and then

[00:23:35] when I met them I really physically look like them so this so they were like first cousins ish we still don't know um they researched it they found the key bit of evidence my mum's

[00:23:45] marriage certificate in South Africa and gave it to me that amazing family again I don't know I don't know whether it's part of it is I'm very upfront so I'm very open what you see is

[00:23:56] what you get so because with that family they were very accepting and open and we want to know where you fit I haven't met any negativity with it which is really helps um so that piece

[00:24:10] of evidence I just pinged back to the program and then within four weeks it was done and yeah so it was that was a journey I wouldn't say it's a holy holy journey

[00:24:21] so um what else has helped you heal what has um I think linking up now which I've never really done until the last couple of years linking up with other people that adopted I don't know

[00:24:42] about you I realized there was very few people I talked to that were adopted about being adopted it wasn't in my mind it just doesn't wasn't there we didn't talk as brothers and sisters

[00:24:55] because we were we were happy we didn't need to we were brothers and sisters so it wasn't a topic of common we used to ask my mum my adopted mum about our backgrounds she she told

[00:25:06] us what what she knew the little she knew and it was a bit of a holiday topic you know my mum tell us about what you know so we were all fairly rock solid with it all so that helped

[00:25:16] with healing um and I think the other thing for me I think I'd say acceptance acceptance of my of my situation even when it even when it changes even when it's doing the roller coaster bit you're not sure where it's going I think I think acceptance um

[00:25:39] um well this is what it is this is your life and it's and and it's been good and I think being fairly positive about life helps so I do feel acceptance of me is quite

[00:25:52] a big yeah I've accepted I was adopted um I didn't really have this massive longing to think does my mum think about me on my birthday at Christmas I never had that I think I had some innate knowing knowledge that I was not a wanted baby

[00:26:11] and and and look forward rather than back maybe so along that type of thinking as I've gone through life I think it heals you as you go along because I'm not digging great

[00:26:25] big holes looking for something to go where is me about yeah but the accepting that you're unwanted that sounds like a big thing yeah that's huge and I think I've I think what's happening now it's it's like what you shared about your story it's as an adult now

[00:26:47] it's it has opened up I wouldn't say can of worms that's too negative for me it's opened up things that I need to work on to heal me to become a whole whole person um to

[00:27:02] I think too when we started talking it's about what is healing to feel peace to I'd like to feel peace and I'd like to just go oh it's okay rather than running around like a mad thing

[00:27:17] doing far too much which is my natural nature to do and I think that's part of trauma yeah so I've got work to do basically I'm okay as a person I've got my feet firmly on

[00:27:32] the ground and that's just through you know I had good parents I had a fantastic mom I was wanted I was loved um I've had my own two children got divorced and everything but I've

[00:27:50] had and what I find again a beautiful thing which possibly is healing with my biological siblings is that we've all got children and we have not repeated what our mother did none of us

[00:28:05] so we're built with strong stuff for difficult circumstances so I think I'd take that as a very positive step forward a healing step maybe that we've not we've not done what she did so a rather simplistic question has come to mind um so it's juxtaposing

[00:28:31] unwanted by your birth mother but wanted by your mum and dad is that um yeah yeah I think I think to a certain level yes and not and my acceptance of that um and we were we were

[00:28:49] given the classic adoptee story that you know your birth mother couldn't couldn't manage to help keep you not a sob story just sort of fairly factual um but we really wanted you um and I think because I've worked in the sort of caring

[00:29:05] professions all my life and I can see how how much they had to go through to actually adopt then you know it's it's not an easy process it's not an easy process now

[00:29:18] um so that really for me on a practical way that it reinforced that they did want us yeah yeah yeah so which which bits um I mean separating out the relinquishment trauma

[00:29:36] yeah and trauma any trauma that goes on in the adoptive family I think is it's huge for all of us because it's called you know people talk about adoption trauma well it's the relinquishment which is that the first that's happened that's the thing that happens first

[00:29:53] yeah and and um I was talking to a doctor about this fellow doctor about this yesterday and I came up with this idea that you know if we if it seems to be multiplicative to me

[00:30:10] right so if if the the relinquishment trauma is a five and the trauma that goes in and the the adoptive family is a five it's not five plus five it's five times five right so it

[00:30:26] gives 25 but if so if we have like five for the relinquishment trauma but almost no trauma whatsoever in the adoptive family give that one right that's five that just gives five

[00:30:41] and and uh it I don't know I was good at maths at school somehow but you know like it it's separating it separating out the two yeah is it is is essential and we look at our some you know you talked earlier on about our experiences and uh

[00:31:05] would you know that we've had we've had it lucky in the in the adoptive families and and some people haven't some people have had it really really bad and one of the things

[00:31:18] that's popping into my head these days is about the fact that you talked about being tough for to become adoptive parents even in the 60s in the UK in the US the the adopted parents pay the adopted parents pay the agency in the UK

[00:31:40] the government pays the agency right and and what's kind of coming into my head is that you know perhaps the um our parents UK parents are judged on their ability yes it is a big broad brush stuff but anyway enough of that what does the healing bit

[00:32:11] the healing the the healing ahead of you um look like feel like um I I think the words that come straight into my head with with that is actually and it's it's quite emotional I can feel it

[00:32:30] right here okay it's it's going to be a peaceful process because I really wanted to be a peaceful process it needs to happen there's a lot that still needs to happen from through

[00:32:43] the linkage room side of things um and I it'll be very emotional I'm quite keen to look down the somatic side I've in the past um block clearance therapy I try I gave that a go

[00:33:03] in fact I had an amazing therapist with that because you're not then digging digging digging it's a very different sort of therapy where you're you're taken back to a certain point in your life that comes into your head and you work on that um and that had incredible

[00:33:19] results so part of me feels maybe I'll go back to that just because a lot of that that came up and this is pre-family stuff pre-siblings all that um a lot of it came up from my was my trauma from childhood massive recurrent nightmares um being very

[00:33:35] isolated on my own I was mute as a child um you know a lot of stuff and I know I've got to revisit that but I want it to be peaceful I want it to I want it to flow

[00:33:51] and I want to be able to deal with it yeah um and I think I don't know maybe I may be very naive about this because it is this is a newish journey for me in that sense

[00:34:01] the relinquished bit and I'm sure this would be quite a motive for a lot of people is that I feel oh gosh I think because my what I know of my birth mother and I obviously have never met

[00:34:14] her she was a very complex woman and I had three three options I thought of about her when this all this tv stuff was going on and I thought right there's three things I thought

[00:34:27] if she's dead there's nothing I can do about it be a practical person nothing to do about it if she's alive and doesn't want to see me there's not a lot I can do about that either

[00:34:38] but the one thing that would have been hardest for me was if she's alive and we meet and I don't like her or she's not very nice person and I shared these with my next sister

[00:34:52] down he's 10 years younger than me and she just said to me because she did meet her she said to me well that would be a triple whammy wouldn't it because of how she was which is

[00:35:02] quite hard isn't it so for me I know I'm quite fortunate I haven't got to deal with another human being who happens to be my birth mother and what that did through what I found through

[00:35:16] the program is it really cemented how good my adoption was really cemented and that my mom was my mom as in my adopted mom yeah so it cleared a lot up really even even though

[00:35:33] it was like there's so many questions my youngest younger sister is still in South Africa she she said on camera that mother went to her grave with all her secrets we're never going to know

[00:35:46] the answers and from that point of view I'm quite pragmatic there's no point me bashing my head against the wall once in a day why why why this this this I will never know

[00:35:59] and and I think being adopted and having that survival mechanism kick in as I recognize now from birth you got you have strength from that you have strength and you build it up you you live in survival mode right through your life whether you want to or not

[00:36:15] you can change it and have things that help you thrive and things that help you flourish but that survival bit at the beginning just shores you up I think in so many ways without

[00:36:26] you knowing about it do you know much about her early the early parts of her life um I know that she her parents were married but split when she was very young her mom remarried there was

[00:36:45] a space of a few years when they were on their own just the two of them then she remarryed and her stepdad adopted her he was actually a really it appears a really lovely man and my

[00:36:57] siblings met him so they and he was a lovely man but she was quite a troubled kid I don't know the reasons why um and that continued right right through her life and she I don't know

[00:37:14] a lot of this stuff on my adoption folder when I got that uh were fabricated um even on my birth certificate stuff was fabricated so you know and she you know she she had five children and um yeah didn't really she kept the younger two but

[00:37:38] spent quite a lot of time in prison and things like that so very complex creature whether it was from a trauma her end I will never know but it was repetitive behavior right through which I've learned bits about from her younger sister she's got half sister who's

[00:37:54] who's in this country now so we've met a few times um and I think her mum my grandma was a very strong-minded woman and they lived all over the world um because it's a military background so lots it's very complex that her life is complex just from those

[00:38:13] sides so whether she suffered a trauma when she was younger I don't know anything about her dad or her well she lost her she lost her father fairly young with through the divorce so you could say that that would score in this aces thing adverse childhood experiences

[00:38:33] there's a few different things I can't color it too much with painting her as such a it's a bad woman perhaps I don't know I can't really do that because I don't know

[00:38:48] it's not fair but the facts and the circumstances aren't good no no so I love this idea of uh I love this idea of a peaceful process to healing right and it strikes me as another kind of like

[00:39:09] a juxtaposition or a parallel um what's the word contrast right because you talked earlier on about craving and now you're talking about in the past right I guess and now you're talking about peaceful so there's something yeah something shifted something big has shifted

[00:39:34] there so there's a patience and a and a and a quiet a quietness a steadiness about it and but there's also there's a kind of like a steely a steely part to that it's not fluffy

[00:40:01] you there's a determination to for it to be peaceful yes there is actually I think um I think when my friends I think you know what it's like sometimes it's people that reflect back you about the changes that you won't don't necessarily feel or see you about yourself

[00:40:19] and um I met someone recently we went out for a meal and she said when I first met you I just thought my god who is this this woman that's bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing and

[00:40:28] I didn't realize how ping-ping-pingy I was but now she says now you know where you come from and I don't know much about where I come from but I think it's that sibling contact

[00:40:41] I have people that got my back and it's it's I don't I think the the the lovely bit for me and I think for my siblings is we don't question it so I mean we don't question

[00:40:57] that we there's total when I said about acceptance before there's total acceptance there you know it could turn around and kick you in the face couldn't it when you accept something completely and utterly who knows but we don't fight it none of us fight it

[00:41:15] we're not or we all appreciate that we want to get to know each other and and it's not like oh this massive great big thing we we catch up with phone calls we we meet when we can

[00:41:26] we all went on holiday last year it's not being forced none of it has been forced so I feel I feel very lucky that's the case I feel gentle unfolding yeah yeah whereas we could have you know all of us could have just

[00:41:45] got a little bit bonkers though oh my god oh my god we want to do this I'm going to come and move and live next door to you did it didn't we haven't because I think we have

[00:41:51] the security knowing that we're in each other's lives well it's the flip of that craving thing yeah yeah so I think that's you know it's so it's so difficult isn't it when it's

[00:42:06] when it starts with invisible traumas you talked about because when you've lived as long as this I would say I've had a very eventful life more so than lots of people and you do wonder

[00:42:17] sometimes why is that which has left me I mean the reason I searched them well the reason that pushed me forward was searching was that I lost my my mom and my brother in the same year and I lost half my family I felt so ruthless

[00:42:36] um so that sort of pushed me forward to accelerate it really to do what I could do um so it's it's that combination isn't it um and when you said earlier on about um people moaning or being angry or whatever else about it

[00:42:55] we could all do that I've definitely done it yeah you know and we have our you know moments but I think because I've worked with people all my life as an occupational therapist and it's to promote wellness and independence and stuff I've always had that slant of things

[00:43:12] um and I just think I don't don't get me wrong I have periods of depression periods of depression but generally I don't want circumstances to control me I want to be able to make the decisions and that's why I keep that's why I've said a few

[00:43:30] times we do have choices yeah and a lot of the time we're not choosing you yeah and sometimes a lot of times because we don't know we don't know what to do when I

[00:43:43] in a sense like I say I don't really know what my next healing bit will path will be I don't know whether I'll like I'm interested in some semantics I'm a bit of a flippity

[00:43:53] gibbet it's it's sometimes difficult to pin me down I recognize I want this peaceful journey um and I don't question it not happening but I'm not quite sure how you know yeah so it's we're just complex creatures but with the added trauma we're even more complex creatures

[00:44:16] of none of our doing that's what I do realize now it's just so I was I was absolutely gobsmacked about the relinquishment side because I really had not taken that on board till recently and whether that's a protective thing I don't know but you'd felt it

[00:44:37] you felt it yeah yeah absolutely I would you know I've I've always joked for years that I was I came out the womb with independent tattooed on my backside um my whole life as all the circumstances have made me

[00:44:54] either independent to the extreme I don't really necessarily like that I find it very hard to rely on people and trust people to the deep side I've got a massive network of friends

[00:45:07] where I've got a very good network but the real core I know this person's got my back there's very few people in my life that I could say do that and then so meeting my brother

[00:45:20] and thinking yeah this guy's got my back my sister's got my back I know I could ring them down and say ah I need help because I haven't had that for a long time so it's a very

[00:45:40] healing bit for me it's a massive journey one that you can get off you can get off the train when you want to and leave it park it for a bit and then get back on consciously you can do that but subconsciously there's stuff going on full stop

[00:45:56] and it affects your life all the way through yeah I think that's what I was alluding to with their choices subconscious choices yeah it's a different level isn't it yeah so what

[00:46:13] does the process look like to you going forward but I think generally it sort of embraces what I want to do in my life now I have a craving for freedom I don't like to conform and ironically

[00:46:39] the freedom a lot of it is actually being on my own going out there climbing mountains going to the sea just spending time and that's the peace bit I think I'm a coach as well now I've

[00:46:56] sort of trying to find a lifestyle where I can travel and work with regards to my personal healing with the adoption I go with the flow I know things need to happen but I'm not in

[00:47:17] a bad place and things will I'm a great I do lots of different stuff I'm a bit of a busy bee and I'll take opportunities when they arise so in a sense part of me is sort of thinking

[00:47:32] oh when that when that opportunity arises oh yeah I'll do that and I'll give the somatics a go I'll go and give that a block clearance to go I will do something about it but I'm not

[00:47:41] driven to think I've got to do this now I don't feel that that need it's not yeah yeah what if anything do you think has got in the way of your healing in the past

[00:48:00] oh right I think really um and I think probably a lot of us feel this is we often become the go-to person we often become the person that friends talk to and they've got problems because we're with the people pleasers and all that stuff so I think

[00:48:18] really that free life has made it difficult for me to ask for help so you've been stuck in give mode rather than the receive absolutely or ask for yeah I'd say that was all through my life so that's I think that's the one thing I would say has

[00:48:41] prevented things. Has their burdens brought you down as well or have you been at a distance down as well or have you been at a distance from there? I think I'm quite an empathic yeah I'm yeah naturally that so I naturally gravitate

[00:49:15] you know I can stand in the Morrison supermarket and I'll know the guy behind me I'll know the whole story by the time I got to check out um I at times that sucks the energy out of you

[00:49:26] and it just it's very individual depends on the person um but I and I have had very bad burnout over the years because of the work I do because it give give give give give and I'm single person so I haven't had that person you know of marriage

[00:49:43] 15 years ago I haven't had that go home and talk to somebody and you offload that day so I think over time it's built up um so yes it has it's had a detrimental effect on that

[00:49:55] sense but I also have an acceptance or a pride actually a pride of the skills I have to communicate with people and make them feel comfortable enough to talk um and I think there

[00:50:10] is always been that survival mode and level of resilience to manage whatever's thrown at you so but it doesn't make asking for help any easier I'm proud of my ability to to be a therapist

[00:50:26] and talk to people and help them but that's one side of the coin isn't it it hasn't helped me go actually I need some help here is there anything that pops into your

[00:50:44] head that I've not asked you about I think it's just um I think the thing is we could talk for hours on all this sort of stuff couldn't we I think what I find interesting talking to you is

[00:51:02] knowing more about the theories behind the traumas and stuff like that it makes me want to go away and know learn more which is good um asking me anything I know I think we're coming

[00:51:24] on I and thank you very much for inviting me on I think it was just to share a bit of my story and and take it hopefully on a positive slant that sometimes we don't know how strong we

[00:51:35] are we've had to be strong we're thrown in it straight away um but it yeah so now I'd like to take a I've had a good life there are traumas all sorts and I'm recognizing the

[00:51:54] birth trauma now so I thank you for in that sense you've been part of that journey for me um and I'll be listening more to your podcast to get advice and ideas of where to look

[00:52:09] and to look at resources and like the somatics you mentioned I'm quite keen on that side of things to help with that peaceful process I'm having we tend to have so now I'd just like to say

[00:52:22] thank you for inviting me on. You're welcome it's been a pleasure and we'll link to you socials and that sort of stuff in there sharing helps as usual right yeah yeah no great

[00:52:36] is there anything else you want to ask me? No I think we're I think we're kind of there yeah yeah yeah it's good to it's good to focus on the healing side I think it's really good what you do yeah yeah thanks Aaron thanks listeners