Feeling Healing With Fred Nicora

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast today. I'm delighted to be joined by Fred Nicora, looking forward to our conversation, Fred. Really, it's been a long time since our last one, right? Yeah, I'm excited Simon. Yeah, and it has been.

[00:00:16] I think it's almost been a couple of years now, you know, and when I think of when I thought about, you know, coming onto it and I love I love the way that you continually evolve and reformat yourself, reinvent yourself even, you know,

[00:00:31] and really have taken a sharper focus on healing now. That's kind of a newer bend since I was with you last time, and I'm excited to talk about that. I think this is going to be a great discussion. Cool, me too.

[00:00:43] I think it's probably the second big change in the podcast, and podcast has been going almost two years now. The first big change was probably September 22 when I decided, OK, it's adoptees all the way.

[00:00:57] Yes, we'll have some birth mothers, but the adopted parents, I enjoy talking to them, but I don't have the same level of shared experience to them. And I don't think I learned as much from them as I'd learned from fellow adoptees.

[00:01:16] So that was the first kind of narrowing down the shift from everybody to pretty much just adoptees and the occasional birth mother. And then the second one, as you say, they were this focus on healing because it's a word that we use all the time.

[00:01:35] It's a word that we bandy around. And what I'm getting is that it means pretty much completely different thing to every person I interviewed. Yeah, and I agree with you there 100 percent.

[00:01:52] And even what I'm going to say is, as I've reemerged myself into the adoptee community over the last several years and really learned where the community has evolved to, the word healing is brought up nonstop.

[00:02:09] But at the same time, it seems like nobody quite necessarily is talking about the exact same thing, the exact same method, the exact same hopeful outcome or anything. So I think for you to dive into this is phenomenal. And I think my hands off to you.

[00:02:28] It's interesting water you're treading in, I'll say that much. Yeah, it is very interesting water and I'm working towards what I thought was a framework at one point. And now I'm seeing as maybe it's a roadmap and I've been working on it this morning.

[00:02:45] So basically, I'm trying to distill all the stuff that I get, right? Distill all the stuff that I get into a framework that kind of hopefully it shows every hopefully it shows every interaction that I've had every conversation.

[00:03:06] If I don't know, maybe I can't do it that way. But at least then we've got some clarity. So what does what does healing mean to you, Fred? I would say for me, healing has like I mentioned to you before my hats off to you for evolving

[00:03:22] has really evolved over the years for me as well. I think, you know, given my story where, you know, at the age of 41, I discovered I was adopted, which was about 23 years ago.

[00:03:34] Sometime now, you know, if you would have asked me then when I first discovered I was adopted and I started to emerge myself into the adopting community would be a very different answer than what it is today.

[00:03:45] And I would say at that time, that answer really would have been a lot more about learning and absorbing and becoming acclimated to a new world. Now, is that actually healing?

[00:03:59] I think at the time that was, you know, I had a sudden, I'll say harsh injury, you know, at the discovery, obviously there's potential to believe that that injury, there were other injuries that occurred along the way that I wasn't necessarily aware of or conscious of.

[00:04:16] And I'll say today as opposed to back then, that understanding has become much more externalized and it's become much more about giving and contributing than it has about absorbing and taking.

[00:04:36] And today as I look at it, it's healing for me is becoming aware of and being able to express terms of my contributions to the community at large. And not only that, but also I'm going to say the fuller understanding and acceptance of who I am,

[00:05:09] what I'm capable of, my total story and how I can bring that out to work with others. Wow. There's not much there really is there? There's not much. That's a fact. And I'm not there yet. I'll continue to work on it. That was British irony and understatement, right?

[00:05:31] Just like we don't, yeah. I think that the first thing is that it's a natural part of our healing that we want to give. It seems to me that we want to give back and we want to help people learn some of the stuff that we've learned.

[00:05:53] Right? So we made some progress forward. We want to give back. I think that's what's really blown me away in the adoptee world, right? And at the same time, wanting to learn from people who are ahead of us on the journey.

[00:06:22] That's what I'm looking to do. Who can I learn from? Who can I learn from? And where do I have to go perhaps outside the adoptee community to get that? I mean, we talked about identity last time we spoke.

[00:06:40] And if obviously if you haven't got this already listeners, Freddie's a late discovery adoptee, right? So if we, so identity is something that we talked about a lot last time because identity is severely challenged. So I did see is a challenging, a challenge for all adoptees.

[00:07:08] And I think it's particularly a challenge, a challenge that happens in the crisis of the moment for the late discovery adoptee because you've had the rug. I don't know whether this was your metaphor or not or something else. You've had the rug pulled from under your feet.

[00:07:27] You've lost your grounding. Everything that you thought was true about who you were is up for grabs. It's lost. Yeah, it's interesting as you were talking a bit about it. One of the things that really struck me is, and I'll first of all say yeah,

[00:07:45] for me, I've always compared it to my foundation was underpinned and completely swept away. Suddenly I'm standing there holding a house up with nothing under it to keep it in place.

[00:07:55] It was just all gone, you know, and I would say what the biggest take away from me because initially when I discovered I was adopted. I didn't necessarily believe I had a lot in common with other adoptees because of the late discovery nature of my adoption.

[00:08:13] And as I, I'll say healed as I as I move forward in covering that wound in learning to live with that wound and then learning to minimize the negative impacts of that wound.

[00:08:28] And so I came to realize that I have a lot in common with adoptees that as a whole the fundamental nature of a large part of my psyche, not the whole psyche but a large part of it.

[00:08:43] You know is is affected has been affected even from birth and for me it just did. It actually clarified a lot of things now what I would say about adoptees as a whole who aren't late discovery.

[00:08:57] It's a lifetime to be able to adjust to it to I'm going to say, develop that ego to survive in the world, wearing that coat, because that coat comes with a lot of meaning and a lot of baggage.

[00:09:13] And for me I had, you know, I discovered and suddenly all of a sudden I found this 3000 pound coat wearing me down and I wasn't sure exactly how to deal with it whereas I would say. Most adoptees, you know they there if they're familiar from early recollection.

[00:09:31] They start nibbling away at that how to accept it how to integrate their persona into what that part of our identity means to them. Yeah, and for me I just had to kind of do that overnight so yeah. Yeah, it's like crisis moment isn't it.

[00:09:50] Yeah, you mentioned it to Christ and it was it was like. It's a crisis moment. And it puts it brings it all to focus so it's a cute it's sorry it's acute rather than chronic acute.

[00:10:11] Yeah, you know it's interesting when you talk about the concept of adopt being an adoptee. I would dare say the condition is chronic. It's not anything that you're going to get over for you know me as a late discovery adoptee.

[00:10:28] I think there was an acute event that brought to the surface the chronic condition.

[00:10:35] And I hate to parallel it only to negative aspects you know we start talking acute versus chronic we are often talking about illnesses and yeah there's some damage that's done there's some scarring that occurs there's

[00:10:49] some healing that needs to take place but at the same time, and that's a you know part of what I'd like to talk about today too is as as the that that blast that initial blast cleared and I started to finally see who I was what I was capable of

[00:11:08] and what those implications of my life story have in terms of how I perceive myself where I perceive myself going and how I can express that outwardly to hopefully help others has, I'll say changed quite a bit and I think there's also.

[00:11:27] You know, and I think the best way to explain this is one of the analogies I talk about as I talked to different people is that you know for myself, I, and I'm going to be very just on, you know, very transparent here.

[00:11:43] I'm a white male in America.

[00:11:47] Guess what, I'm, I'm, I'm, I don't have that prejudicial rug thrown over my head I'm not wearing any of the, you know, race cards and getting old so now I'm doing a bit of the age card but you know those things hadn't been part of my understanding and whereas I was an educator, and I had been trained and educated to understand

[00:12:07] the prejudicial thought. I never experienced it from the same viewpoint of somebody that actually had a live in it. And to some extent I'm going to say adopt these for the most part, you take the concept of what a relinquished baby what a bastard is throughout history.

[00:12:26] It's not necessarily a pretty thing to be I can't think of anybody that would say you know I'm going to design life story for myself, and I'm going to make myself adopted.

[00:12:34] I'm going to go there. So for me, you know one of the things that it did is it opened my eyes quite a bit, you know, and I would even dare say when I look at in, you know, and I respect all disenfranchised elements of society.

[00:12:49] And the awareness gave me that respect to so much more of an acute level of awareness. So for instance, I think across my society I'm in the US you're obviously in England. You know there's many groups that are disenfranchised.

[00:13:08] And really as I think about these different groups and I think about for instance the plight of, you know, these different groups, they had laws enacted that protect them.

[00:13:19] There are actually laws that say you can't discriminate based on this you can't discriminate based on that you can't discriminate, you know, a to z what you can and can't discriminate what you can't discriminate based on any of these.

[00:13:31] So I think that there are certain birth attributes, except adoptees are the only group that at the end of the day. It's actually written into law here that you must discriminate upon. You must give them different rights than the rest of the general population.

[00:13:44] And all I'm getting to it with that is I think there's, there's certain things that I had become aware of that I look at differently now as I look through the lens of being unaware adoptee than I did before.

[00:13:57] And so that does give me a different view into society it does you know I'm going to say open my eyes and maybe there are advantages to that it's not all disadvantages.

[00:14:06] So I want to go back to a what I would see is the core issue for us adoptees in that beautiful expansive definition that you had of healing and he said acceptance of who I am. So we can look at all the external stuff.

[00:14:37] Yes, let's look at the external stuff. And I nearly said but and let's focus on the internal let's focus on the internal stuff. So, acceptance of who acceptance of who I am. So what does that, what does that mean to you.

[00:15:03] Initially, initially, when I found out I was adopted. I had to wear the coat that I had constructed of what it meant to be adopted. That was from the viewpoint of somebody that wasn't adopted.

[00:15:26] And being, I'm going to say even previ to the conversations of people who are not adopted of things that wouldn't be said to somebody that is about maybe comments about behavior maybe comments about what it must have been like for them, or

[00:15:45] or mud it you know why they act the way they do, you know, and quite honestly being somebody that was on the other side. And I guess if you run around and don't tell anybody you're adopted, you'll hear some of those same conversations, because it's not a color where painted.

[00:16:01] It's what's going on in the inside. So for me, part of it became a read.

[00:16:06] Well, I'll say initially part of it became coming face to face with some of the stigma and things I had to learn that I actually did believe inside and find out how I reassess those as I found out that I actually fit into those categories.

[00:16:24] Whereas before that I really didn't think that. So, I think for me that that gets a little more complicated just in that.

[00:16:34] I had to come to terms with who I am as a different type of a person or as a person that actually had many of the attributes. And I'm not going to say I thought bad things about adoptees but you know I'm going to say, I believe like, Oh, they act out.

[00:16:52] I'm going to be kind of sensitive about some things. You know, so I had all of a sudden accept those things about myself and reevaluate how I felt about wearing some of those I'm going to say preconceived notions that I would have had as somebody that didn't realize they were adopted.

[00:17:10] And that was a big part of it and for me accepting that and accepting who I am at that level. The other level is to understand that my story started three months before anybody's ever told me about it, and I didn't even think to put two and two together before that to say that you know now that I think

[00:17:30] I'm going to tell you a baby story about myself. Everybody's always talking about when I was sitting up or doing something but I never heard about like what it was what how what was it like when I was born.

[00:17:41] Did mom have a easy delivery did she have a bad delivery did she have a good delivery, you know, did I cool you know I never heard any of those and I had to kind of understand that.

[00:17:51] And so I'm a person that's been at it even came down to understanding at a different level. And so for I'm a person that's been in reunion four years, you know, started 20 years ago.

[00:18:03] My mother has died since then and but other people I've actually got some relationships that you know I've been in reunion with them, you know going on 20 years now and you know when I look at that.

[00:18:14] And so I'm part of the story and they're part of the story that actually is part of me that goes beyond what I had been consciously aware of. And as that can continue to evolve.

[00:18:26] I've also become aware of what my familial my biological history is and how it integrates into who I am what I'm part of that I'm a continuation, you know, and Simon I just was.

[00:18:39] I'm a food and free breads at farmers markets that's one of the things I do I have a number of things I do. And not this last week in the weekend before it was crazy, it was just crazy, because I ended up in this farmers market I'm part of this group is called food faith and farming.

[00:18:53] And I ended up in a place that was like 70 miles from my house, and it was in southeastern Wisconsin.

[00:19:01] It was then these plates they tend to be at churches. It was at a place called Norway Lutheran Church and Norway Lutheran Church is in Norway Wisconsin. Guess what, at that church in the old church graveyard.

[00:19:15] My grandfather, my great, great, great, great grandfather and great, great, great, great grandmother are buried. And how did you find out it's very. I had gone through prior to that and done.

[00:19:35] We there's a site I think you can find it in England too it's called find a grave and find a grave will allow you to trace back now.

[00:19:43] You know, a little bit about my own story that my mother, my biological mother would had a shameful experience back in the 50s when she had me.

[00:19:52] And so she prevented me from really kind of doing much with her family while she was live after she passed away I dug deep and I found you know where she was from where where her family was from.

[00:20:04] Actually, and it took me a while before I could even psychologically get to the place where I could do that. I think that was something I didn't want to look at I still had to heal from that.

[00:20:13] Because I'll say even that you know a lot of people will look at the wounds that we have as adoptees as being the wounds that we got from the basis of relinquishment. But I'm going to say when you go into reunion and things don't match your expectations.

[00:20:29] I just put in 100 words I just put in there expectations very loaded word.

[00:20:35] You end up with a wound, you meet your biological mother and all of a sudden she says you know what, you were the most shameful thing that ever happened to me my God you better stay in the closet, you got it. Ouch. Yeah.

[00:20:49] You know, just because you know you, you start going through you and you start healing doesn't mean you're not going to encounter some other ones that you're getting through there.

[00:20:58] And it's how do you deal with those where do they become so I'm going to say part of that healing process, even that was finally and I'm gonna say it was probably six seven years after she had passed away that I finally could look at her family that I could finally not in person but

[00:21:15] researching it find out where they're from who they are. You know they were some of the first Norwegians that came to this country and settled in Wisconsin.

[00:21:22] You know, it was crazy. It just went way back and so I did find I found actually so technically I had been to that grave site before but it just so happened this rotating farmers market plot me right there where my great great great great grandparents were buried.

[00:21:38] And I'm going to say for me. That's healing. That is healing connecting with that connecting with those people that are buried in the ground there and recognizing that I am the continuation of them, regardless of whether I was given up at birth or not. Yeah.

[00:22:00] Well again, there's so much that let me just narrow it down the focus then because this acceptance accepting who I am. Right. The was there. accepting who I am larger I think if that's kind of self esteem sort of stuff.

[00:22:31] But I've got the feeling that you mean slightly differently. I don't know. Yeah. Again, my, my situation and those who have I'm going to say late life discoveries genetic surprises. So you know as you talk about the communities in which we're involved.

[00:22:50] I'm basically at the intersection of two communities. One is the adoptee community at large and then the others the MPE and MPE communities which are the surprises later in life.

[00:23:02] I've got both of them wrapped up in one nice little package here. You know so as you get into that and I'll say maybe more unique to the, you know, MPE, MPE, you know, there is a fair amount of acceptance of a different person and what you were led to believe you

[00:23:19] were adopted earlier. You know, whereas I think most adoptees, if they're they're aware that they're adopted early on, they may have that as a, as they develop you could answer the question better than I can.

[00:23:32] But what I would say is, you know, and maybe they go through a similar type of a metamorphosis or, you know, evolution.

[00:23:40] And they're going to be in a relationship with deciding they want to seek out their birth family and maybe go into reunion and they grapple with some of those questions, because those are going to open doors that are going to show you perhaps you're somebody

[00:23:54] you didn't know you were. You know, you're meeting people if you start finding out about those people, you're suddenly going to find you have attributes and perhaps traits that came from somewhere that up to that point you didn't necessarily see in yourself or didn't recognize in

[00:24:13] you were understand that we're part of you. So, I think that's that's a big blanket the other part, you know, I'm going to say is for myself, and I think adoptees as a whole and I can speak probably better to those that went through reunion.

[00:24:28] And then I discovered, I went into immediately went into seeking a replacement for that foundation. So I didn't have any pause of like, Oh, do I want to look or don't do I not want to look I never did a yes or no should I or shouldn't I.

[00:24:43] I dove deep right in and then just found restrictions I found I was technically barred from knowing who I was until I cleared all the hoops and played the game and you know, in a particular state and in which I'm in but

[00:24:57] many adoptees and I guess I'd answer asked the question, do you feel that was your case. You know, as you went through reunion. And have you been. Yeah, you've been through union. Well, I found out that my birth mother had died. Oh, when I, you know,

[00:25:21] for many years, it was a should I shouldn't time search. And then it became in a very emotional moment it became a no blame and no brainer. I had to search. Yeah. Then I found out that she died. And then I'm, I've never.

[00:25:46] Well, I'd never had never had any inkling or questioning over the birth father stuff, but father well never is that's that's an overstatement.

[00:26:03] And I've had a lot less consideration about searching for my birth. Yeah, a lot less consideration about searching for my birth father than I did from a birth mother. But I actually called him out of the blue last October and and got blown out by him. And

[00:26:25] what do you mean blown out by him? Well, the conversation didn't go very well and it and it ended, but it didn't end with it. It didn't end with him slamming the phone down, but it ended in with him saying don't don't call this number again. So

[00:26:46] and I was remarkably unfazed by that. You talked about the expectations thing right. I went, I made that call. Very few, very few expectations because I viewed it as an experiment.

[00:27:11] And the experiment was has he changed his mind basically, because he didn't want to know anything about it. He didn't want to be in the baby's life before the baby was born. Right. So that

[00:27:28] him, the two of them would be going out together for five months. She told him that she was pregnant. He didn't want anything to know. Right. So 57 whatever his years later, I call him completely out of the blue

[00:27:42] and don't handle the conversation particularly well. But I don't. And you know, it really doesn't matter how I would have handled the situation. I'm still I'm pretty sure that would have got to the same result. So the fact that I wasn't bothered by what he did.

[00:28:03] I saw that as a sign of my progress. So to go to the bigger points about the comparison between a late discovery adoptee like you and somebody that's always known like me. I didn't have a before. You had a before and an after. Yeah.

[00:28:36] Yeah. Before crisis after I had no before. Yeah. Only no crisis in being told. And and therefore no no after really. For me it would be the bigger points people might talk about would be the before and after

[00:29:05] would be those moments of coming out to the fork. I think for us that would be a better that would be a better comparison.

[00:29:14] Yeah, perhaps you know it's interesting because I when I do look at my before and there's there's a lot of stuff in there that I want to talk a little about healing to because it's it's fascinating and even you know our dialogue of you know what your your story is where you you were surprised by

[00:29:34] that. A little the negative conversation affected you. That's what I'm pulling out of what you're telling me and

[00:29:44] you know and I'm not by any means I'm not challenging you on this I'm I'm looking for a dialogue because again I'm trying to wrap my head around all the two is you know it's interesting because when I look at healing what is healing

[00:29:55] healing trying to make us feel less or is it trying to make us feel more is trying to make us be more affected by things or less affected by things you know we look at.

[00:30:05] You know theoretically we come out as I'm going to say a package ready to be wired you know obviously for us as adoptees who go through some very early trauma are impacted by it I believe. And we've talked about that maybe some significantly some less so.

[00:30:23] You know at the end of it what what is our goal and he is our goal to feel more is it to allow herself to feel more or is it are to have our self feel the negative less.

[00:30:38] Or is it a combination or hybrid you know as you talk about the before and after I know a lot of healing of post traumatic stress disorder is based off the concept you're trying to bring the person back to pre trauma personality.

[00:30:52] You're trying to reintroduce them to how they were before the trauma and allow them to move through life more closely aligned with who they were before that trauma than what they became after that trauma.

[00:31:06] You know that gets interesting because when I look at my point my trauma point when I discovered that was one trauma.

[00:31:12] I think there were other things so even when you look at who I was as a result of being relinquished at birth spending up to three months in you know probably an orphanage potentially a foster home situation.

[00:31:25] Probably a lot of additional trauma went on there so I don't want to go back to that person I'm glad I'm out of the closet I'm glad I know this person's a much better person and that person was struggling a bit struggling a lot.

[00:31:41] Fascinating stuff about feeling less negative feelings. Yeah that's one of the things that has come to me. I've got to a question I had a question that was kind of similar to yours.

[00:31:59] So am I pleased about this feeding less negatively impacted than I thought I was going to be. Do you know what I mean? Yes I'm right I understand. That's why to me it's a fascinating topic and discussion.

[00:32:20] So yeah I mean I look at feeling more feeling more yeah not blocking it up. Not stuffing it you know not trying to not suppressing the feeling not becoming a robot.

[00:32:51] And when I'm looking when I'm going through this this framework of road map for healing that's kind of the things one of the things I'm setting now like so is it feeling less insecure or feeling more secure or is it carrying less about our feeling less secure. Yeah.

[00:33:18] So yeah I for me it's about less judgment or grace let's call it grace right so I used to worry about being worried. I used to be and now I do that a lot less.

[00:33:41] I used to be angry about being angry whereas now I'm more grace now I don't beat myself I beat myself up less for my negative for what could be seen as negative emotions it's great so instead of trying to suppress the anger.

[00:34:03] No no I'm fine I'm fine I'm fine and inside. You know you're really but I'm really bubbling up it's more about.

[00:34:14] Grace and I never use this word but equanimity right so and I don't really know what that would mean but I give it a go it's being kind of less bothered about how I feel. Well I think you know and I'm going to say for me.

[00:34:31] You know as we talked about there's there's a lot of different interpretations of how healing looks you know within the adoptee community and I think for me my goal.

[00:34:41] I want to be able to feel that's that's the human condition I get what 70 80 years of being able to feel as a human I want to make sure I feel what I'm supposed to feel.

[00:34:51] However, at the same time I want to be in a place where those feelings the negative feelings the hard feelings the feelings that create pain and discomfort have less of a negative impact on my life.

[00:35:07] And how I feel about life and I think that's what you were talking about that. And that's how I that's how I see healing is.

[00:35:18] And that's what I want to accept them I I want to be able to feel the discomfort of losing somebody of having a loss of somebody.

[00:35:35] But at the same time I want to be able to accept that at a level where it doesn't destroy my life it doesn't dwell on me it doesn't create you know.

[00:35:49] Compulsive behavior cycles that hurt my life you know and to me that's what the healing is it's not necessarily numbing. It's more the accepting the totality of the emotions and living in a comfortable place within yourself with those emotions. Yeah.

[00:36:10] And when I was I was thinking about that you use that word whole right so it's the end you know in literal terms.

[00:36:25] It's the end of healing is feeling whole or being whole right or it's the starting point right so I the one of the most interesting things that. That came to me last year was the difference between there's a difference between feeling whole.

[00:36:49] And being whole feeling and being so healing we could look at healing on two levels here right. Healing from an emotional perspective is about our feelings and I know that at another level at a lower level than that.

[00:37:17] We're always we were always whole anyway the difference you know I know where. Oh go ahead. Yeah I'm more interested in who I am than how I feel the acceptance of the whole the acceptance of the whole of our emotions.

[00:37:52] So we've had that you and I had that discussion before you know they're the 12 steps and sobriety and all stuff like that.

[00:37:59] And some things that I spoke to something that really landed for me speaking to Pamela Karen over who talks about her 27 years relationship with booze was accepting the whole of her emotions.

[00:38:17] Rather than trying to numb through booze you know so the whole the you know like being whole and accepting the whole of our emotions and I haven't really got that.

[00:38:34] I haven't really got that the detail on that nailed down yet but there's a there seems to be a link to me for me feeling feeling whole accepting the whole of our feelings and knowing and knowing the whole of who we are and acceptance rather than

[00:38:51] the thing and deny and what they know that sorry.

[00:38:55] Yeah yeah no I you know you've got a couple of things that I wanted to touch on you know it's interesting as we talk about Pam and I'm a person that came to terms with alcoholism and drug addiction and been in sobriety for quite some time now I know Pam's in a little different place with it.

[00:39:09] You know in terms of how she views it today versus how I view it today which is fine I think both of us have found places that were comfortable with and if it if her models working for her awesome and my seems to be working for me so awesome on that one.

[00:39:24] You know I think we get into what what I would call it a very interesting area and that has to do with the numbing and the numbing because I think the numbing can come in two two ways there.

[00:39:35] There's a numbing I think if you look at scar tissue scar tissue and I mean say the first one is a very good one but I think I think I think it's a good one.

[00:39:41] Yeah yeah I think it's a very good one but I think it's a good one because the numbing can come in two ways there's a numbing I think if you look at scar tissue scar tissue that I mean say the physical scar tissue I cut myself in the leg scar forms over it and that scar that forms over it will be numb nerves don't grow back into it it doesn't.

[00:40:03] It doesn't allow for the sensation of feel scar tissue just doesn't because it can't. So that's one side of numbing the other side of numbing is experiencing the feeling but medicating that feeling away.

[00:40:18] You know and I think they're both important to look at whether you actually take action to numb something you feel or you simply can't feel and so I would say to some extent. And I wonder and it's an open ended question in my mind.

[00:40:36] Has the scar tissue the psychological scar tissue that's been inflicted that really can't feel. Is that capable of ever feel. I don't know you know but what I would say is just as I want to minimize the amount of negative impact from feeling.

[00:40:58] I also want to maximize the amount of feeling that I'm capable of and I think the acceptance is again finding a place. Where I can be comfortable even with the discomfort of some of those feelings. Yeah so it's being okay about not feeling okay.

[00:41:24] Okay about not feeling okay. No I want to feel okay. I guess so yeah because you're saying okay about not feeling okay.

[00:41:36] I guess so yes it's coming to a place where because at the end of the day hot is hot cold is cold and our bodies program to feel those in different ways.

[00:41:50] I can't I don't want my body to feel hot is cold or cold is hot but I want to be able to get to a place where I can feel that I'm feeling okay. I can feel that I'm in a place where when I feel hot.

[00:42:04] I'm all right with feeling hot you know and maybe sometimes for adoptees, you know not not all and not categorically throwing a blanket here but you know maybe maybe adoptees don't feel comfortable in the realm of love, you know. And it has to do with attachment.

[00:42:22] And so how do I get to a place where I do feel comfortable with some of those things that might feel uncomfortable for me, you know and and that's to me what the healing is is accepting that those feelings are real but learning how to minimize the negative impact of those feelings as you move forward in life.

[00:42:42] Yeah fascinating stuff. So what do you think help we spend and didn't was it Einstein said if somebody gives me an hour to solve a problem.

[00:42:55] I want to spend the first 55 minutes that find the problem and the last five minutes and then they you know the answer will become clear something like that, you know.

[00:43:07] So yeah, I was going to jump in here because I want to get some stuff in here I really wanted to talk about.

[00:43:11] So to me what has been fascinating okay as you know I wrote a book and I wrote a book and I'll say my journey of writing has turned out to be very interesting and enlightening as it pertains to healing because initially when I wrote the book I'm going to say I don't necessarily believe I was looking at it to make a million dollars or retire from anything from the book, but I didn't necessarily understand what my inner drives and motives were for getting me to tackle this big

[00:43:41] piece of work and put myself out there and incidentally from the time I wrote the book till the time I actually got it published was probably about 12 years, and some of that was just me sitting on it thinking like in retrospect I don't know if I'm ready to you know, open up this this part of me to the rest of the world you know.

[00:44:02] There was fear there there was humiliation there there was the lack of humiliation there there was a lot there that I had to get through and I worked through and I got to that place I'm going to say some of what got me there was the healing to get to that point for me personally some of that was putting down about I had to do that that help facilitate the healing.

[00:44:23] I later found out that actually that book then became a piece that it actually was a vehicle to allow for dialogue, and that dialogue was the engagement of an inner expression to an outer world.

[00:44:39] And in a flow back and forth of not only information but feelings as I talked to other adoptees as other birth mothers as other with other birth, you know, adoptive parents, and even the population at large.

[00:44:54] Suddenly, I'm not only finding that I've accepted these parts of me, but I'm also opening those doors and others are accepting that and that is creating validation that's going both ways and helping me to heal further.

[00:45:08] My latest venture and this is the stuff I'm just having blast with, and I'm finding it is so cathartic it's not even funny. I'd encourage anybody to try and stumble down this road and it's a hard road.

[00:45:19] I'm into screenwriting. I'm trying to take pieces and actually not only, you know, let's say I look at a memoir but how do I turn this into physical characters how do I work with these characters and you know what the, the most cathartic characters for me to date have been creating

[00:45:38] these characters that are based off my birth mother, my birth father, my adoptive mother, my adoptive father, and other people that have been involved in my journey. Not necessarily that these are factual characters that are relying on factual pieces of information, but their characters that I've created a reality

[00:45:57] for, put in a world set in motion. And that has created tremendous healing it's allowed me to accept all those parts of my life at such a greater expense and I would encourage anybody to do that, not just for the sake of selling a book selling a screenplay play but for the sake of allowing themselves to understand those facets of themselves

[00:46:21] at a much deeper level. So has creating those characters helped you heal because it's given you empathy for them? I would say that's a fair statement. I think it's, yes, it's allowed me, okay just as you said you weren't able to meet your birth mother because she had passed away, my birth father passed away prior to me even

[00:46:51] discovering I was adopted. So it's allowed me to connect the bits and pieces that I put together about who he was into a person that I can then incorporate into something that's part of me, that's part of my journey, part of my story. And now that's a person that has a totality to it.

[00:47:12] Yeah. You know, and I'm not, I shouldn't hold it only to screenwriting or writing a book writing a memoir. You know, I don't know if you're I think you know Brad you will. Yeah, I've crossed paths with them and interviewed him yet but.

[00:47:25] Okay, he's he's another late discovery adopter that's why I bring it out you know he's really into visual arts right now and I just it's so fascinating.

[00:47:33] You know, he's using it as a vehicle of expression and a vehicle I you know this is my own interpretation of it I've got a bit of a heart art history background but you know it's his expression his interpretation of that expression that he's bringing out to the world and offering for critique and inviting a dialogue around what he's doing you

[00:47:54] know, and I think that's where for me that being able to express and expose shine light into those dark corners is what really helps bring about that healing. So it's the opening up then. That's the driver. That's the. Yeah, I would say so.

[00:48:15] If if the if some of the the healing parts of this are there and if empathy for understanding others and empathy is is one, what one part of this and opening up and the vulnerability around that is another part.

[00:48:41] What are the parts does, does the what are the parts do you see of the the whole of of him of this creative endeavor.

[00:48:59] I mentioned before you know one of the, you know, and I'm going to say there's a couple of layers. The first layer that struck me as you were talking empathy if empathy is part of it well if you start thinking about what empathy is at you can't have empathy or anything until

[00:49:16] you let down your inner blocks from allowing yourself to feel what you're perceiving another is going through, you know, so to some extent you are, as we were talking about before, getting to a level with empathy that that you are accepting

[00:49:41] and that means surrounding a situation so as I talk about my birth mother, who maybe I had some negative interactions with, or maybe I talk about my birth father, you know who it was clear he didn't step up to the plate when I was conceived.

[00:49:55] You know, there's negative feelings for that, you know there's there's hard feelings just hurtful feelings from some of that. And so, for me to get to a place where I can have empathy means I've started to work around and accept those negative

[00:50:10] feelings, and not let those negative feelings alter my path and my ability to grow and move forward in situations surrounding them. Does that make sense to you.

[00:50:24] Because you're way brighter than me on this stuff I think I just, I think for me the key word seems to be on this seems to be perspective. Right. So if I think of the most healing of my moments of my life was

[00:50:46] breaking down to break through, as people say, being in floods of tears.

[00:50:52] As I read the letter from my birth mother to the social to the social worker, right. And when I when I realized when I when I got a glimpse of her perspective, when I saw her powerlessness, when I saw her love for me when I saw where I saw a love for

[00:51:13] me where I saw her the power imbalance, you know so the social work had all the power she had no power. Where I saw her desperation and on all that, all of that stuff happened, all that stuff was going through my head, all coming out in,

[00:51:38] you know, snotty tears. And I felt at one with her. You know, there's that saying that the we're not spiritual beings, we're not human beings have a spiritual experience where spiritual being spiritual being having

[00:52:02] a spiritual experience, right. So that was looking back on that moment. A probably it was eight maybe eight years ago, something like that. I saw the world through her eyes, because her and me were one in that moment.

[00:52:23] So that's, that that's kind of it's uber radical empathy. I think it's it's it's it's it's infinite. It's infinite empathy in in that moment. And also in that moment, it completely blew away the last vestige of this idea that she didn't love me.

[00:52:55] Well, I think, you know, and what as I'm listening to you what I'm what I'm hearing and what I am really relating to is for us. And there's too late to two components to it. One is going to be a societal dialogue that we hear and accept.

[00:53:17] Another is just our inner feelings with the lack of knowledge, and that has to do with the hurt and pain on adoptee feels about being rejected from their birth mother. The plain simple truth for all of us is for one reason or another, our birth mothers rejected us.

[00:53:41] Now, we can. We don't understand the story. And there's pain involved in that. There's there's a it's tough. And that's that to me is getting to and as you talked about yours.

[00:53:57] And I'm going to talk about mine being able to get to the place where I can feel empathy for the means I've had to overcome the pain of feeling rejected by. I have to be able to look beyond that in order to get to that place of empathy.

[00:54:17] Because quite frankly, you know, you stand somewhere there's an explosion of bright light you can't see beyond that bright light until the dust stops. You start looking beyond what's around there.

[00:54:30] You know what what was the cause what initiated it. And that helps you get a different perspective but initially you really can't look at it.

[00:54:38] And when you get to a place of empathy, whether it's for your birth mother whether it's for your father, whoever it is, you you've healed to the point where you can accept the bad feelings and are able to start to contextualize and

[00:54:56] understand at a deeper and larger level. What you're part of, and that you're not the center. And doing that I think you allow a sincere connection. And that's the empathy that you feel, that's how I see it. So what healing moments come to your mind, friend. Healing moments.

[00:55:23] I think, you know, we were talking about before when I went to this farmers market and, you know, I ended up in this place where my great great great great, you know, grandparents are my ancestors.

[00:55:38] Part of me is there. I'm actually part of what carried forward from there. You know, and for me, you know, and it's kind of crazy but standing around this place.

[00:55:50] And thinking about all of the people that were around there as somebody's being buried standing at this church recognizing that baptisms that, you know, regular Sunday served everything.

[00:56:07] So this was a community event, and I am part of these people here and feeling that connection of what I'm part of that I'm part of a greater whole brought about a lot of healing.

[00:56:22] It brought about a lot of the ability to look beyond my initial blast and and understand and have empathy for all those that had been around my line before I even got there. Yeah. So, Do you Do what similar?

[00:56:50] See for me that the similarity seems to be the connection thing. So, like if we look at the theme, looking at a theme for the last hour. It's it's it's connection. So you felt connected in that in that graveyard. I felt connected when I read that letter.

[00:57:20] The engagement in the engagement with the adoptee community is about connection so it looks like to me. It looks like a little bit of a theme. Not, it doesn't tie the whole thing together but it's one of the more dominant themes in there in the conversation.

[00:57:44] Yeah, I you know it's connection to me definitely is a big part of it. And I think for me what I can say and it goes both internally and externally said but true but we are social creatures.

[00:57:57] So there's not only that I'm gonna say validation at an external level that There's there's a level of acceptance. You know from the world around us, but also just internally that you know that connection helps me validate the totality of my story.

[00:58:21] Even that empathy that you know you were talking about and what I'm going to say is, you know, I, you know, we all in most adoptees have a very similar story. Not at all but you know, whoever our birth fathers were didn't step up to the plate at some point, you know, I mean,

[00:58:39] I think in the case that there can be other twists and turns and maybe there was valid reasons for that but we don't know that. But again, you know, we have to get to a place and I think that's where the healing is when you can get around the negative emotions, you know, and I'm going to use a strong

[00:58:55] word here forgiveness. Relinquishment, you know, the view of me, all adoptees and then being able to work beyond that and actually find empathy for the people and the decisions they made.

[00:59:22] I think that to me is a definitive marker of healing, that it shows that we moved beyond that initial painful state of the scar and have moved into later development of what turns that scar into healthy tissue healthy experiences, a healthy whole life.

[00:59:48] And didn't connection find you though. Didn't connection explain that I don't know what you mean by that. You were in that graveyard and connection found you. Yeah, and I connected. It was a spontaneous it was a spontaneous moment of connection.

[01:00:12] I hadn't thought of it that way I, you know, because I went to the graveyard the graveyard didn't come to me. You know, that could be the whole segue into a horror movie script and I don't want to go there. Me neither.

[01:00:28] But yes, you could say the connection found me, you know, that does give it an added level of dimension to. And I think that ties back into your were actually physical manifestations of a spiritual, you know, and are those spirits still part of what is there.

[01:00:44] That's a complex one and above my pay grade here so. But you put yourself. You took yourself to the to that graveyard. And this, yeah, you know, the invitation came.

[01:01:03] You know, and you could have said to I'm not going to that farmers market so I'm not going to go to that great. So you went there.

[01:01:12] But when you were there connection found you, you know, I didn't. And the reason I could see it or the reason I'm postulating like that is I didn't. I didn't go and get that file with that. I didn't know that was in it.

[01:01:32] You know, I but I didn't go for that to get that file looking for empathy. You know, I didn't think all I didn't think well now all I need to do then.

[01:01:47] Okay, to heal. I need to empathize with my birth mother. How am I going to do that? Well, I can do this. This is it's not it wasn't a you know, it wasn't a it was a spontaneous empathy moment, not premeditated. Okay, kind of replant.

[01:02:11] Well, yeah, and now now if you want to go down a deep rabbit hole here now. Now we'll talk about the subtext of the dialogue, you know, and that has to do with the conscious versus unconscious.

[01:02:23] And what are we really trying to why does any adoptee want to start to pursue finding their, their factual pets. I mean, I think from that standpoint when we're all standing at that crossroad. It would be much easier to not look.

[01:02:43] It would be much easier to not look something makes us look at that flame and something draws us closer to it. And so is that at a subconscious level, a drive we have is that part of our natural spiritual cell seeking to heal to become whole.

[01:03:07] Well, funny should say that I love the flame thing. I love the flame thing. And yeah. So the flame if if if this you're playing that metaphor forward right. Yes, it the how do I put this.

[01:03:36] I name check quite a lot the guy that I quote a lot on the podcast, the guy called Rupert Spira. He he he explains this month to the flame. So in his analogy, the flame is who we truly are. And the moth is the ego.

[01:04:04] And that ego is drawn to the flame, but then it backs off because it knows it has to die to you know, for two to become what for for two. To become one, it's it's the it's the death of the ego and we are we are reunited.

[01:04:33] Yeah, we are one. Yeah, yeah. And I'll even say you know as you were talking before about, you know, suddenly out of nowhere, what a few years ago you decided you were going to go knock on your biological father's door.

[01:04:53] You know, what was that about. I mean, think about it, it would have been far easier to just not do it, but something compelled you some something inside said,

[01:05:07] I mean, I need to fly closer to the plane. I need, I need to take a look in there. You know, now is, you know, and then I don't want to go to is did it do what it was supposed to do have have you, you know, is that thirst quenched where it's at, or, or are

[01:05:29] there additional flights that will occur that'll get you closer. I mean, I don't know the answer I don't know if you know the answer. But, you know, I think that's especially for us as adoptees I think, I believe, and I think I'm,

[01:05:45] I'm not going to go into the next over here. Simon, I'm, I'm talking before I think so as as I do that, you know if I stumble somewhere, please forgive me but, you know, I think many adoptees that that is the coming out of the fog that suddenly

[01:06:05] they're at a point because I didn't experience that the day I found out I was adopted is the day I started to see. But as I talked to more and see more and look at their stories and understand their paths, you know that at a point.

[01:06:23] They decide they have to get closer to that plane. They have to get in there and look at it they no longer can exist in the comfort of the orbit level they're at.

[01:06:36] And something drives them to dive deeper and is that you know, is that part of our inner nature that it's actually a healing that needs that we're, we finally are able to embark on that journey. I don't know. I think there are plenty more flights ahead of us.

[01:06:57] I think so too. Yeah, feels like a good place to bring it into landing. Yes. Fantastic. Brilliant. Thanks listeners. I hope you've enjoyed. Did you notice what happened at the end? Yeah, fantastic. Fred looked it. I hope you love it too listeners. Cheers. Bye bye.

[01:07:25] Yeah, thank you Simon. I appreciate it. And as always, like check out the show notes and get friends for fine. Okay. See you soon. Bye.