Many of us adoptees have been asking questions for as long as we can remember. Who are we? Where did we come from? Why were we adopted? What drives our questions? What drives your questions? Listen in as adoptee and therapist Kim shares the fierce curiosity that drives her, coming through the toughest of times and more. Rich and deep. Just like we love these interviews.
Find out about where Kim works here https://www.cffde.org/
Guests and the host are not (unless mentioned) licensed pscyho-therapists and speak from their own opinion only. Seek qualified advice if you need help.
[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Kim Sabanayagam.
[00:00:14] That's pretty good.
[00:00:16] Yeah, so it's Sri Lankan listeners, that's the origin of this.
[00:00:19] Yes, my husband is, his father is Sri Lankan.
[00:00:23] Yeah, but you also talked about some Filipino.
[00:00:27] Yep, his mom is Filipino.
[00:00:28] Right, okay.
[00:00:31] Yep, so our kids are a bunch of stuff.
[00:00:36] Yeah, yeah, brilliant, brilliant. How many kids you got?
[00:00:40] We have four.
[00:00:42] You have four. Wow.
[00:00:44] Yeah, your logistics must be quite...
[00:00:47] Oh yeah, it's a little nutty.
[00:00:49] It's a little nutty.
[00:00:50] And Kim was talking to me before listeners about their Christmas
[00:00:55] and 70 of their family crammed, friends and family crammed into one house.
[00:01:02] And that's nuts because for me, I was saying that we were at the other end of the spectrum.
[00:01:07] It was me, my wife and my mom.
[00:01:09] So we're at three, you're at 70.
[00:01:12] You're a pretty different experience.
[00:01:13] A pretty different experience.
[00:01:15] A steady day.
[00:01:16] Yeah.
[00:01:17] So, thriving adoptees, what comes to mind when you hear the name of the podcast, Kim?
[00:01:27] Yeah, I was thinking about that.
[00:01:30] And for me, I think thriving means that, well, one, I'm kind of doing what I want to do,
[00:01:37] which is professionally I'm in the field of adoption.
[00:01:41] And I don't think that's any mistake.
[00:01:44] And I've been in the field for a long, long time.
[00:01:47] And I really love it.
[00:01:48] I love what I do.
[00:01:49] So I feel like that's a huge part of how I would define thriving.
[00:01:54] And I think the other part of it is, for me, I needed a lot of answers in my history.
[00:02:01] And I started that journey when I was really young, like in my teens.
[00:02:07] And I have since found and have developed relationships with both sides of my biological families.
[00:02:15] And that to me is a huge part of how I define thriving, because I've really just sort of experienced all of it at this point.
[00:02:26] And sort of leaned right into the fears and the hard parts of it and the messy parts of it.
[00:02:32] And I'm really happy to say, you know, I look back and I'm like so glad I did all that.
[00:02:38] Yeah.
[00:02:40] So knowing who I am and, you know, doing the hard work to get there was, I think, huge for me in terms of how I define that.
[00:02:49] Yeah.
[00:02:51] This, this word lean in, I'm pretty sure it came.
[00:02:55] It's, it's a US word, a US phrase that it's kind of come over here as well.
[00:03:01] Yeah.
[00:03:02] I think when I first heard it, it was the, was it an autobiography by the, the, the woman from Facebook.
[00:03:14] So what's she called?
[00:03:16] Her name is just complete.
[00:03:18] Cheryl Sandberg.
[00:03:20] Oh.
[00:03:20] So Cheryl Sandberg, she was Mark Zuckerberg's right hand, right hand person.
[00:03:28] And her, I think her book was, it's called Lean In.
[00:03:32] Oh, okay.
[00:03:33] Yeah.
[00:03:34] I've, I've not, I've not read it.
[00:03:36] I haven't been tempted to read it.
[00:03:38] I, I did love, um, becoming Michelle, the Michelle Obama, um, autobiography.
[00:03:46] Oh, did you read that?
[00:03:47] Yeah.
[00:03:47] I've been wanting to read that.
[00:03:49] I, yeah, I listened, I actually listened to it and, and she, she narrates it.
[00:03:54] I don't think I would have, I don't think I would have bought it if, if she wasn't narrating
[00:03:59] that I think.
[00:04:00] Yeah.
[00:04:01] Yeah.
[00:04:01] She's.
[00:04:02] Yeah.
[00:04:04] Yeah.
[00:04:04] It's great.
[00:04:05] And she, you know, she was, uh, she was Barack Obama's boss.
[00:04:10] Yeah.
[00:04:11] Oh, I believe that.
[00:04:12] She was, she was in a law firm and he was on a, he was doing an internship.
[00:04:18] That's how they met.
[00:04:19] And she was the supervisor.
[00:04:22] I don't.
[00:04:22] Supervisor.
[00:04:23] I love it.
[00:04:23] Yeah.
[00:04:24] I, uh, supervisor.
[00:04:25] So I don't know if it's politically correct to say boss, you know, I was just a, yeah.
[00:04:29] Yeah.
[00:04:30] Supervisor of the interaction.
[00:04:31] So that was, that was great.
[00:04:33] Um, so what does, what does leaning in mean to you?
[00:04:41] Uh, I would say for me, it meant, um, not being sort of paralyzed or, or stuck in my own
[00:04:50] fears and worries, which your mind can really go down that, you know, rabbit hole pretty
[00:04:57] quickly.
[00:04:59] Um, especially with something as big as this and sort of finding your biological family
[00:05:04] and the fears of what that might lead to.
[00:05:07] Um, but I guess I've always been a person that ultimately I, I, I don't want that to stop
[00:05:14] me.
[00:05:17] Like I'm just compelled to lean right into that.
[00:05:21] And you, you said that you started, you started question questions started coming up for you
[00:05:27] from a very early age.
[00:05:29] Yeah.
[00:05:29] So yeah.
[00:05:31] And is that, is that the driver?
[00:05:33] Is that the, is that the compulsion, the, the, the compulsion behind the compelling,
[00:05:38] whatever it is.
[00:05:39] Yeah.
[00:05:39] Yeah.
[00:05:40] Because I think I w I'm just naturally driven by curiosity.
[00:05:45] It's a big driver for me and a lot of parts of my life.
[00:05:50] And so that was just, just a natural part of who I am.
[00:05:53] And so that curiosity was a huge driver.
[00:05:56] I'm like, there's no way I can't pursue this.
[00:05:59] There's no way I can't know these answers.
[00:06:01] So was it like a, I mean, how you're expressing it there.
[00:06:05] It sounds like quite a fierce curiosity rather than an anxious curiosity.
[00:06:09] It was a fierce.
[00:06:10] No, it was a fierce one.
[00:06:11] Yeah.
[00:06:11] I think you say that right on the money.
[00:06:13] Yeah.
[00:06:16] It was, it was a, a need to know that not, not based in anxiety, but just like, how could
[00:06:23] I not pursue this?
[00:06:24] This is such a huge part of your history and who you are.
[00:06:29] Yeah.
[00:06:29] Yeah.
[00:06:30] That's interesting.
[00:06:31] Cause I've, I've, I think I've, I didn't have that questioning.
[00:06:38] Yeah.
[00:06:39] And a lot of people don't.
[00:06:40] A lot of people don't.
[00:06:41] Um, but I, I, I think that, that questioning must come in a myriad, the questioning must come
[00:06:48] in a myriad of flavors, right?
[00:06:50] So there's a, there's a fierceness that you're talking about here.
[00:06:56] Um, uh, but it's not, it's not like a bravado fierceness.
[00:07:01] It's not like it doesn't, it sounds, it sounds kind of fairly genuine rather than.
[00:07:07] I think so.
[00:07:08] I mean, yeah, I wasn't trying to.
[00:07:10] Not angry, not an angry curiosity.
[00:07:11] Yeah.
[00:07:12] I wasn't trying to prove anything or I didn't expect anything necessarily.
[00:07:16] I really didn't.
[00:07:16] I didn't expect like, oh, they have to respond to me in this way or if, you know, I didn't
[00:07:22] have those kinds of feelings, but I was like, there's no way you can't follow this wherever
[00:07:27] it leads you to these fundamental questions, you know, about your history, your biology or
[00:07:36] so many, you know, so many parts of that, that, um, yeah, it was like, just absolutely
[00:07:42] going to happen at one way or another.
[00:07:44] Yeah.
[00:07:44] So there was no kind of weighing up of, uh, uh, curiosity versus fear.
[00:07:52] It was just.
[00:07:54] No.
[00:07:54] I was, I had fears.
[00:07:55] I'd be silly to say I wasn't fearful.
[00:07:59] But you weren't weighing it up.
[00:08:01] I wasn't weighing up because to me, it was just not a decision.
[00:08:05] The decision was already made.
[00:08:07] Yeah.
[00:08:08] Inside is inside of me.
[00:08:12] Yeah.
[00:08:15] I'm, I was just thinking about my own experience and being in a therapist chair about sorry
[00:08:24] if you've heard this before listeners.
[00:08:26] I don't know.
[00:08:26] Have I told you about this Kim?
[00:08:27] About being in a therapist chair?
[00:08:28] I don't think so.
[00:08:29] Yeah, go ahead.
[00:08:30] Because you're a therapist, right?
[00:08:32] Uh huh.
[00:08:33] Yeah.
[00:08:34] Um, so this was eight years ago, maybe 10 years ago.
[00:08:37] I can't.
[00:08:38] Uh, the therapist was asking me about where I was on the reunion or the search.
[00:08:46] Should we say?
[00:08:48] Yeah.
[00:08:48] And, uh, and, and some, an image popped into my head of, of my birth mother being outside
[00:08:54] the door, uh, of the therapist room.
[00:08:59] And I, I don't remember what her face looked like.
[00:09:03] I don't really think I had a picture of her face at all.
[00:09:06] Or, cause I didn't know what she looked like at that point.
[00:09:09] But I, I, uh, something in her facial expression was a, a rejection or yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't
[00:09:19] a welcoming face.
[00:09:21] And I, uh, I, I flushed cold in frozen, a frozen fear.
[00:09:30] And then straight off the back of that red hot kind of, I'm not gonna let this fear get
[00:09:37] in the way.
[00:09:38] And it was like kind of pushed away.
[00:09:40] Right.
[00:09:40] I'm gonna pick, pick, pick the, pick the search back up.
[00:09:45] And, and, and lo and behold, whatever it was a year later, I find out that, that, that she, that the rejection
[00:09:53] idea was a false one.
[00:09:56] It was, it was, when I got the papers, it was clear that there was no, there was no rejection.
[00:10:01] Yeah.
[00:10:03] On her part.
[00:10:05] She was doing what she thought was the best thing for me.
[00:10:11] And, and, uh, and the, her anguish became clear from the, the stuff that I found in the adoption
[00:10:21] file.
[00:10:21] Yeah.
[00:10:23] And that's just to say that the, there was no, like you, there was no balancing of, um,
[00:10:32] curiosity and, and, and, and, and fear.
[00:10:36] It was an overriding.
[00:10:37] Yeah.
[00:10:38] It was, for me, it was an overriding thing, quite dramatic in that moment.
[00:10:46] Uh, quite a different moment for me because I hadn't had that questioning.
[00:10:50] So if you'd been with that, if you'd been having that questioning, um, but it wasn't
[00:10:54] heartache question.
[00:10:55] It was, it was fascinating how everything is different.
[00:11:00] Everybody's.
[00:11:01] Oh yeah.
[00:11:01] I hear so many different stories and experiences and they're all so true to that person.
[00:11:07] You know, there's so that that's their, that's, that's the, the beauty of this field to me
[00:11:13] is like everyone's experiences and feelings can look so differently.
[00:11:18] And yet there's some themes that run through it, you know, that are kind of baked in themes
[00:11:23] around some of these fears of rejection and abandonment.
[00:11:28] And, you know, some of those things that I hear over and over and over again are definitely
[00:11:32] part of my experience too.
[00:11:34] Yeah.
[00:11:36] Uh, as you were talking that something just popped into my head.
[00:11:39] Have you seen a few good men with Tom Cruise and yeah.
[00:11:42] Yeah.
[00:11:43] And when Jack Nicholson loses it and says, you can't handle the truth.
[00:11:49] I just got like whole body goosebumps from that.
[00:11:54] Um, because we can handle the truth.
[00:12:00] We can.
[00:12:01] Yeah, you can.
[00:12:01] The fear is that you can't, you know, and that keeps a lot of people in such a fearful
[00:12:06] state and almost like, just so stuck.
[00:12:09] But the truth is we, we generally we can, you know.
[00:12:18] And yeah, does it have to be experienced?
[00:12:27] Just, just that.
[00:12:29] Um, so I, I can only speak for myself.
[00:12:35] Yeah.
[00:12:35] I mean, for some people, it doesn't, you know, they, you know, for some people, it, it
[00:12:40] doesn't mean that that has to happen search and finding and developing relationships the
[00:12:45] way that I felt for me, it did, or at least I'd explore every possibility.
[00:12:52] Um, for me, it was important, but for other people that, that isn't their experience.
[00:12:57] Yeah.
[00:12:59] Um, I'm not sure whether I asked the question quite right.
[00:13:02] Um, so I, about 15 months or so ago, I, I called my biological father out of the blue
[00:13:11] and, and, you know, he had no idea that, you know, he'd signed a piece of paper in 1966
[00:13:16] and that was, for him, it was gone.
[00:13:19] But, um, he, the, the, there's, there was no, no second, uh, telephone call was, he
[00:13:29] didn't, he didn't, he didn't even want a second telephone call.
[00:13:31] Um, oh wow.
[00:13:34] Um, I'm, I'm at, off the back of that, uh, I thought, well, I was okay.
[00:13:40] Mm-hmm.
[00:13:41] So there's this idea, I think we have this, some of us have this idea, we can't handle
[00:13:49] the rejection.
[00:13:52] Yeah.
[00:13:52] And yet, when it happens, we realise that we can.
[00:13:56] Um, um, and that's kind of what I was trying to get at was, do we have to experience it?
[00:14:06] Do we have to experience our ability to bounce back?
[00:14:12] Do we have to, do we have to experience our ability to handle rejection and not end up on,
[00:14:21] on the floor in a mess?
[00:14:24] Right.
[00:14:24] Do we have to experience it?
[00:14:26] Right.
[00:14:27] Or, uh, and it's, it, it's a bit of a silly question, really.
[00:14:32] Do we have to experience it?
[00:14:33] Or, or could we say it before we experience it?
[00:14:39] Yeah, I, I don't know.
[00:14:43] For me, for me, I just felt that no matter what happened, that I can live with whatever
[00:14:55] happened, but I can't live with not trying.
[00:14:59] I couldn't live with that.
[00:15:01] I knew that.
[00:15:04] And so for me, I can't speak for everyone, but for me, it was absolutely unavoidable that
[00:15:12] I had to at least try no matter what was coming at me.
[00:15:18] And it's been messy.
[00:15:20] I mean, it's been not like this Hollywood ending, you know, it's not, it's not, um,
[00:15:25] you know, like a movie, you know, sometimes movies aggravate me that are about this subject
[00:15:31] because, you know, as they might you, um, where sometimes if they just sort of put it
[00:15:36] into these little sound bites and, you know, it's all great or whatever, or maybe it's
[00:15:41] like a talk show.
[00:15:43] Um, it aggravates me because there's so much to it.
[00:15:48] Yeah.
[00:15:50] And well, do you know, do you know why that, do you know why they stick to the formula?
[00:15:58] Oh, I'm yeah.
[00:16:00] I'm sure that it just feels, it feels way better to do that.
[00:16:03] And it's more kind of sellable in some ways.
[00:16:08] Yeah, it is actually.
[00:16:10] Um, so even like, have you seen, have you seen, I'm sure I guess you'd seen gladiator.
[00:16:19] Have you seen gladiator two?
[00:16:22] Yeah.
[00:16:23] We just saw that.
[00:16:24] Yeah.
[00:16:24] Not as good as gladiator one.
[00:16:26] No, it wasn't.
[00:16:27] But you know, like, but in, in, in gladiator, um, gladiator one, he, he dies, but he, he
[00:16:34] gets what he wants.
[00:16:35] He's reunited with his family.
[00:16:36] Right.
[00:16:37] So, um, you know, it's, is it bittersweet?
[00:16:41] Whatever.
[00:16:41] Uh, but there's, uh, Hollywood, all, all the, all that matters to movie studios is money.
[00:16:53] Yeah.
[00:16:54] And so they, they, they, they have the, the, the, the, the, what do they call it?
[00:17:00] The hero's two journeys.
[00:17:01] Right.
[00:17:02] There is a formula.
[00:17:04] Yeah.
[00:17:04] There's a formula.
[00:17:05] And people love that formula.
[00:17:06] People love that formula because they know that they know what they're going to get.
[00:17:09] Um, yeah.
[00:17:10] And, and that's why all the Hollywood execs who are being, they, they teach the screenwriters
[00:17:18] to write to the formula.
[00:17:20] Yeah.
[00:17:21] So that's why it becomes formulaic.
[00:17:22] Cause everybody's, they're looking, everybody's yeah.
[00:17:26] What they're looking to do is to, uh, minimize the chance of maximize the chance of it succeeding
[00:17:33] and minimize the chances of it failing.
[00:17:35] And then, but there's all sorts of different things that could, could, could get in the
[00:17:38] way, but they can control the story.
[00:17:40] Right.
[00:17:41] Control the story.
[00:17:42] They can red light, you know, green light.
[00:17:44] So yeah, it's, it's intentional and it's to do with, um, fear of loss.
[00:17:51] Right.
[00:17:52] Right.
[00:17:52] Of a flop.
[00:17:54] Yeah.
[00:17:55] And, and, and then they don't get, you know, the director doesn't get another job
[00:17:59] and then the movie exec doesn't get another.
[00:18:02] Uh, it's a fail of loss or, and desire to get on with.
[00:18:07] Anyway, that, but yeah, it's formulaic and, uh, structurally it's set up that, that way.
[00:18:14] Um, so this fierce curiosity, um, so does, does the, does you talk to also about doing what
[00:18:27] you want to do, like career wise?
[00:18:30] Um, yeah.
[00:18:33] Did, was the, that was the, was fierceness a driver of that as well?
[00:18:40] Or what, what was the driver of, of that?
[00:18:46] Um, some of it's happenstance, you know, where I was like, you know, when you're presented
[00:18:50] with an opportunity and you're like, Oh, that feels right.
[00:18:54] That's where I need to head.
[00:18:56] And that's what happened.
[00:18:57] Um, I, you know, I had, I had been in the peace corps in Thailand for about two and almost
[00:19:03] two and a half years or two years, three months, something like that.
[00:19:07] Did a little traveling afterward.
[00:19:09] When I came back, I knew I wanted to pursue graduate school and I did all that.
[00:19:14] But after that, I didn't have a clear plan.
[00:19:16] Um, and I really didn't, I didn't say, Oh, adoption is where I'm going to head.
[00:19:20] I really didn't.
[00:19:22] Um, but this opportunity presented itself where I would be counseling.
[00:19:27] My first job in adoption was counseling biological parents or expected parents to make an adoption
[00:19:34] plan if they, if they so chose to go in that direction.
[00:19:38] And there was something about that, that completely made me so curious about what that would be like.
[00:19:46] And also, you know, understanding I had some perception, uh, perspective about that and some experience with that.
[00:19:54] You know, at that point I had found, searched and found for my biological mother and I met a lot of my family at that point.
[00:20:01] Um, and so it just felt right.
[00:20:03] And that's where I went and I never looked back.
[00:20:05] Yeah.
[00:20:07] So, so it was a gut field that drove that instinct.
[00:20:12] It was something my gut was telling me that, yep, that's, that's the right job.
[00:20:16] Uh, I got the job pretty quickly and yeah.
[00:20:20] And that's, that's the start of my whole career in adoption.
[00:20:24] Yeah.
[00:20:28] What about, what about instinct in, in other areas of your life?
[00:20:34] Yeah.
[00:20:35] Yeah.
[00:20:35] Um, I, I, I follow my gut a lot.
[00:20:38] I listened to myself a lot.
[00:20:40] Um, I'm not always right, but I feel like it's pretty wise in a lot of ways.
[00:20:47] If you know, kind of, you just quiet yourself and listen a little bit.
[00:20:51] And, um, so yeah, I think with all major decisions about having children, about marriage, about, about the big ones, the big ones that will impact you for a lifetime.
[00:21:02] Um, career choices, taking risks in my career.
[00:21:09] Um, all came from instinct, you know, all came from that gut, even my clinical work.
[00:21:14] I feel like, and my strength is, and sometimes it can be a limitation.
[00:21:19] My strength is I listen to instinct a lot in terms of what's happening in the present, like in a session or, and, um, that's guided me pretty well in a lot of respects.
[00:21:32] Not saying it's been perfect or, you know, not messy, or I've struggled at times, but it's been a really big part of, you know, how I make decisions.
[00:21:48] Including, you know, pursuing biological family, pursuing my biological father who didn't even know I existed.
[00:21:54] That was a big decision to pursue that because that could have really gone all kinds of ways.
[00:22:01] Yeah.
[00:22:02] But it led to some wonderful things and I'm really glad I pursued that.
[00:22:07] Yeah.
[00:22:09] No matter what.
[00:22:11] Yeah.
[00:22:13] I'm strong enough.
[00:22:14] I'm strong enough to handle what comes at me.
[00:22:16] I'm in charge of my reactions to that, my responses to that.
[00:22:21] And that's been a good guide for me.
[00:22:24] Yeah.
[00:22:26] I think I'm coming back around to a better way to ask one of the previous questions, right?
[00:22:30] Right.
[00:22:31] Um, so I, uh, in, in, in the world, a lot of people think that resilience is strengthened like going to a gym.
[00:22:45] Uh, so the pitch is from the, the person selling the resilience course.
[00:22:52] Yeah.
[00:22:53] I, I, uh, you know, um, I used to be like you.
[00:22:57] I used to be, I used to be afraid too.
[00:23:00] Um, uh, then I learned, I struggled with fear for years and years, and then I learned these things and these simple process.
[00:23:09] And if you spend this time and this money with me, then I will reveal, um, I will give you, uh, reveal to you the secrets to strengthening your resilience.
[00:23:19] Right.
[00:23:19] Yeah.
[00:23:20] Um, which I think is just salesmanship.
[00:23:24] Um, uh, uh, so in, in my, in my opinion, resilience is seen rather than strengthened.
[00:23:33] It's something that reveals itself.
[00:23:36] Yeah.
[00:23:36] To us.
[00:23:37] Um, I'm wondering what your take on that is.
[00:23:42] I think that's a great way to put it.
[00:23:45] It reveals, it reveals itself.
[00:23:48] And then you see it and you, you're able to respond to it.
[00:23:55] Um, knowing that ultimately you're going to be okay.
[00:23:59] That doesn't always feel okay.
[00:24:02] And when it's coming at you, there were times where I was like, what am I doing?
[00:24:05] You know, like balancing so many different people's feelings, my doctor, my parents with my body, you know, there's a lot of the, a lot of balls in the air.
[00:24:16] And there were times where I doubted some of it, but, but ultimately this feeling, this calmer feeling inside me, which I think is about resilience is like, I can tolerate the messiness.
[00:24:28] I can tolerate some of the struggle and the pain because I know ultimately I'm going to be okay.
[00:24:33] Yeah.
[00:24:35] Are there moments when, moments that you can pinpoint when that became clear to you?
[00:24:46] That I could make it through it?
[00:24:48] Yeah.
[00:24:49] Um, one instance really is clear to me.
[00:24:53] It was a huge moment for me.
[00:24:56] Um, because I think in part, I, I was avoiding some of the grief, you know, some of the grief of just all of it, you know, like of coming to terms with not being raised in a bio, my biological family, as much as I love my family to death, my family, I was raised with.
[00:25:14] And there was some loss and grief around that because as I got to know them and I went to family events, there was a very clear feeling that I will always be an outsider.
[00:25:25] I won't know these subtle jokes or these family, you know, the family history that people were raised.
[00:25:32] And I just came in late and there was a real sense of loss about that.
[00:25:37] But, but, but particularly with my mom, my biological mother, when I had my first son, Ty, um, as a new mom, um, in a hospital, you know, holding her infant.
[00:25:49] And I had in a, uh, a tsunami of emotion and grief and loss about what that must've been like for her to walk out of that hospital without me.
[00:26:02] And what that was like for me as a baby to not have my mother.
[00:26:10] And then to be like a feather in the wind, almost like, where am I going to land was an overwhelming sense of grief and loss and, and gratitude that I get to walk out of the hospital with my baby.
[00:26:23] And it hit me like a ton of bricks and it was overwhelming where I was like, I cannot deal with this.
[00:26:31] Like it was so overwhelming.
[00:26:35] And then you do, you move through it.
[00:26:40] Yeah.
[00:26:41] So the grief and gratitude were kind of bedfellows.
[00:26:44] Yeah.
[00:26:45] They were all mixed up together.
[00:26:46] I didn't know how to untangle it.
[00:26:48] I was overwhelmed as a new mom.
[00:26:50] In addition, you know, to lots of life events that were hard, right.
[00:26:54] Preceding the birth of my son.
[00:26:56] And it, my, my father died about two months before I delivered my baby.
[00:27:02] You know, my, my dad from who raised me, who I adored.
[00:27:05] And that it was all converging into this enormous, overwhelming sense of grief and loss.
[00:27:15] And gratitude and like almost survivor guilt in some ways of walking out of this hospital with my baby.
[00:27:23] Yeah.
[00:27:24] It was a lot.
[00:27:25] Keeper guilt.
[00:27:26] Like keeper guilt.
[00:27:27] Keeper guilt.
[00:27:28] I get to do this.
[00:27:33] And I didn't know how I was going to make it through that.
[00:27:35] It was a dark, dark few months.
[00:27:42] So I have a guilt of not being, you know, walking around in my flower dress, you know, holding my baby and being so joyful.
[00:27:51] So although the gratitude and grief were happening at the same time, it was the grief that had the upper hand in there.
[00:28:03] I think so.
[00:28:03] Cause I hadn't felt it to that degree until that moment.
[00:28:09] I hadn't, I had avoided it to some degree.
[00:28:12] It was all a great adventure to me, you know, like the, the great adventure of, of searching and finding my biological parents and develop, you know, it was an adventure.
[00:28:21] But I hadn't really felt, a felt experience of that from her perspective, from my perspective as even a baby, like what that might've been like.
[00:28:34] And then my, who I am now, you know, as a new mom, it just converged.
[00:28:39] And boy, was it hit me like a ton of bricks.
[00:28:47] But with the painful questions that went with the grief or was it, was it just.
[00:28:53] Yeah.
[00:28:54] Back pit.
[00:28:55] Yeah.
[00:28:56] There was a lot of questions and painful realizations because I knew now what it meant to be a mom, you know, like I knew what that experience was to some degree.
[00:29:10] It wasn't just in my, you know, it wasn't just ideas or thoughts.
[00:29:14] It was like, I felt what that felt like.
[00:29:16] And I could imagine what that felt like.
[00:29:18] The horrific, it's, it's beyond my comprehension, what that might've been like to walk out of a hospital without your baby.
[00:29:35] It was horrifying.
[00:29:36] It was horrifying and incredibly sad.
[00:29:45] I just want to ask you a broad question off, off the back of that.
[00:29:50] Rather than a, rather than a trite question.
[00:29:59] And I'm not even sure what the word trite means, but rather than a trite question.
[00:30:03] So, so what, what happened next?
[00:30:05] A trite question would be, so how did you get through that?
[00:30:08] You know, do you know what I mean?
[00:30:09] That'd be a trite question.
[00:30:10] Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:10] I don't want to ask that question.
[00:30:11] So I just ask you an open question.
[00:30:13] So, so what happened next?
[00:30:17] Um, I went through a pretty dark few months of, I would call it depression.
[00:30:26] Yeah.
[00:30:27] Um, I thought it was postpartum depression, but it was so bigger, much bigger than that for me, you know?
[00:30:35] Um, and I, you know, really needed help.
[00:30:38] I needed some help.
[00:30:39] So I, I sought therapy, which was enormously helpful.
[00:30:44] Um, and I just started working through those feelings and it took a long time and it continued, you know, continues to unfold in other ways.
[00:30:54] Like you said, there's different flavors at different parts of your life.
[00:30:58] Um, but that flavor was dark and messy and really hard.
[00:31:05] Um, but I, I went through it, I came through it.
[00:31:10] And it, again, it sort of brought me back to myself again, you know, like you're okay.
[00:31:18] You can feel, you can, you can deal with that.
[00:31:21] You can actually feel those things and you're going to still be okay.
[00:31:26] You can feel those things and you're still going to be okay.
[00:31:31] You have to be afraid of those things.
[00:31:34] They're just, it's part of it.
[00:31:39] Because that's the genius right there.
[00:31:48] That's the genius right there.
[00:31:50] Like we feel that we feel our feelings are going to overwhelm us.
[00:32:01] I don't know why I came up with this or heard it from somebody else.
[00:32:05] We think we're going to drown in our tears.
[00:32:08] Yes.
[00:32:09] It feels that way too, but you don't.
[00:32:19] You don't because you have, you have power.
[00:32:21] You have, you have a lot of say over how that plays out.
[00:32:26] You have, we have a lot of say about it, how it plays out and the, the resilience to, to, to do it.
[00:32:37] So it's the, so we're looking at our essence here.
[00:32:48] Yeah.
[00:32:49] We're looking at our essence.
[00:32:50] And I would describe that as kind of underneath our psychology, beneath our psychology, the background to our psychology.
[00:33:02] It's not, it's not how we think or how we feel.
[00:33:06] It's who we are.
[00:33:07] It's our essence.
[00:33:14] Yeah.
[00:33:15] That, that felt like I was going down to the, the bare bones of it, you know, like the bare bones of who I, who I was in what, how I wanted that to look ultimately.
[00:33:31] And I didn't want it to overwhelm me, overtake me, drown me.
[00:33:36] Like that was part of who I was.
[00:33:40] And I had to move through it.
[00:33:43] There's no shortcuts to that one, you know?
[00:33:49] Or about to lean in, right?
[00:33:52] You're leaning in.
[00:33:53] Yeah.
[00:33:53] Yeah.
[00:33:53] But it's not, it's not leaning as a strategy.
[00:33:58] It's leaning on, it's leaning as an instinct.
[00:34:02] It's not, it's not premeditated leaning in.
[00:34:05] No, no.
[00:34:06] But in hindsight, yeah, I didn't, I didn't like, I think a lot of people that are really afraid of pain are really afraid of that.
[00:34:15] You know, the anxiety of like being eaten alive.
[00:34:19] Turned to a lot of different things, you know, like distractions or drugs and alcohol, you know, like all kinds of ways to just keep that at bay.
[00:34:29] And my instinct was like, no.
[00:34:34] You just have to tolerate how this feels.
[00:34:37] You have to find ways to get support around it.
[00:34:39] And you just have to go through it.
[00:34:40] There's no around this, you know?
[00:34:48] I don't know.
[00:34:50] A few things going through my head.
[00:34:52] The strange, a strange one is, have you heard of a Christmas, an 80s band called Frankie Goes to Hollywood?
[00:35:01] Do you remember?
[00:35:02] Oh, yeah.
[00:35:02] Oh, yeah.
[00:35:04] That's during my time as a teenager.
[00:35:06] Yeah.
[00:35:08] But they did this, they did this amazing Christmas song called The Power of Love.
[00:35:17] So relax is the one that the famous.
[00:35:19] Yeah, relax, don't do it.
[00:35:20] Yeah.
[00:35:21] But I don't remember the Christmas one.
[00:35:23] The Christmas one.
[00:35:25] You want to sing it for me?
[00:35:32] Well, sing it for you.
[00:35:35] I could say it for you.
[00:35:37] Okay.
[00:35:40] I'll protect you.
[00:35:42] Okay, I'll go for the singing.
[00:35:44] I'll protect you from the hooded claw.
[00:35:47] Keep the vampire from your door.
[00:35:49] When your love is round, I'll be around with my undying death, defying love for you.
[00:35:57] Boy, I just don't remember that one.
[00:36:00] Now you have to listen to it.
[00:36:02] It's about strength.
[00:36:06] I don't know whether it's an internal conversation going on.
[00:36:09] I'll protect you.
[00:36:13] I, when I mean I, I mean uppercase S, self.
[00:36:20] Yeah, yourself.
[00:36:21] What dish, our true self, our essence, our spirit, our love.
[00:36:25] Yeah, exactly.
[00:36:27] You've got this.
[00:36:28] Yeah.
[00:36:29] You've got this, yeah.
[00:36:32] And that's the, that's the kind of the quiet voice of wisdom.
[00:36:38] Yeah.
[00:36:39] Rather than the loud voice of you can't.
[00:36:41] Yeah.
[00:36:42] Yeah.
[00:36:42] You can't do this.
[00:36:43] That's crazy.
[00:36:44] Yeah.
[00:36:45] Yeah.
[00:36:48] I had one.
[00:36:50] You talked about your dad dying two months before you first count.
[00:36:56] Uh, I had one coming back from, my dad got a very late diagnosis and a terminal diagnosis
[00:37:04] with cancer.
[00:37:06] And I remember driving back from the hospital with my mom and dad, not with my dad, with
[00:37:12] my mom and my sister.
[00:37:13] My dad was still in the hospital.
[00:37:14] Um, uh, and we, we got to a traffic light, which you would call stop light.
[00:37:21] I don't know why you can't call them traffic lights.
[00:37:24] Because, uh, anyway, um, and this little voice in my head said, um, you can get through this.
[00:37:31] So now that's pretty rare.
[00:37:34] Yeah.
[00:37:37] It's pretty rare for me to have that little, that little voice of wisdom inside.
[00:37:43] Yeah.
[00:37:45] Is the same little, I guess the little voice that Frankie goes to Hollywood with.
[00:37:54] Right.
[00:37:55] Um, a force from above.
[00:37:57] Uh, it's a, it's a great.
[00:37:59] Dick.
[00:38:00] You.
[00:38:01] It's on one of my playlists on.
[00:38:04] Playlists.
[00:38:05] Yeah.
[00:38:05] I'll have to look it up.
[00:38:07] Um, it's a very sad and very empowering song at the same time.
[00:38:15] But yeah, so that sticks in, you know, the, the little voice because the little voice is
[00:38:19] fairly rare.
[00:38:20] The little voice of wisdom.
[00:38:22] It, it, it, yeah, it's, uh, it's normally drowned out.
[00:38:30] Like I heard a lot of noise.
[00:38:32] A lot of noise.
[00:38:33] Yeah.
[00:38:34] Yeah.
[00:38:35] I heard, I heard, I heard another musical metaphor for this to do with a, you know, like
[00:38:41] in a, in an orchestra, you've got the big drum and the little guy with the triangle and,
[00:38:49] you know, the triangle is blown out by the big bass drums.
[00:38:55] Right.
[00:38:59] Um, so the, the, the, the, the uppercase ourself and the, and the therapy was what?
[00:39:20] Yeah.
[00:39:21] Turned the corner.
[00:39:22] I mean, what, what would, what's the best of all in terms of your mind?
[00:39:25] Yeah.
[00:39:26] I want to add one other thing therapy, you know, listening to yourself, but my, another
[00:39:32] huge part of me making it, you know, going through this journey with some resilience was
[00:39:39] also my biological cousin, Katie, that she has been a huge part of this whole experience
[00:39:47] for me.
[00:39:48] I got such a bonus relationship out of this whole leaning into fears and sort of listening
[00:39:56] to yourself because I did not expect that to happen.
[00:40:00] That I would get literally the most amazing person.
[00:40:04] One of my truly best friends that I've now known most of my life.
[00:40:09] Cause I met her soon after I met my biological mother.
[00:40:11] Um, and we became the closest of friends pretty quickly lived together at one point.
[00:40:18] And she still continues to be my absolute best friend in the world.
[00:40:23] And she was kind of like the ambassador for me to this, this family that I often didn't know
[00:40:29] what was happening.
[00:40:30] You know, I didn't know what that meant or what, you know, a decoding somebody's, you
[00:40:36] know, there's a big complicated family, um, that I came in late in the game and she was
[00:40:42] like my ambassador.
[00:40:43] Like she was, she was a person to help me walk through a lot of things that I had no idea
[00:40:49] and made assumptions about, um, based on my own experience.
[00:40:54] And, and she was huge, hugely important.
[00:40:59] Ambassador, mentor, translator.
[00:41:03] Translator.
[00:41:04] Yep.
[00:41:05] Yep.
[00:41:06] Oh, for sure.
[00:41:09] Yep.
[00:41:10] Um, not knowing a lot of the history that she knows and even the biological genetic history
[00:41:17] and, you know, she's, she also is a clinical psychologist.
[00:41:20] So that helps, you know, there's that too.
[00:41:23] Um, but she, but it was more than that.
[00:41:25] She was, it was, she was so genuine and so real and love has loved me since the moment
[00:41:31] I came into this.
[00:41:34] Um, I'm so thankful for her, you know, that was an enormous part of this for me about coming
[00:41:41] out the other end.
[00:41:42] So in a way that I feel was authentic and genuine to me.
[00:41:50] Yeah.
[00:41:51] So people help you along the way for, for me, it was her for sure.
[00:41:58] You talked about unfolding as well.
[00:42:03] And what is this the self-discovery journey we're talking about or what's unfolding for
[00:42:11] you?
[00:42:11] What was it that, that is unfolding or has unfolded?
[00:42:16] I guess there's the clarity and understanding.
[00:42:21] Yeah.
[00:42:22] Helped by Katie to find your feet within that bio family.
[00:42:28] Yeah.
[00:42:29] Yeah.
[00:42:29] But what, what did you mean when you use the word unfolding?
[00:42:33] What, what were you talking about?
[00:42:36] Um, yeah, I mean like relationships for me are really important.
[00:42:42] And I, when I go deep, I go deep usually, you know, that's just how I, who I am too.
[00:42:49] Um, and going deep means that sometimes it's not all wrapped up nicely with a bow.
[00:42:56] You know, it's messy.
[00:42:59] Your feelings are messy.
[00:43:00] Things exist at the same time, you know, like feeling angry and feeling sad and feeling,
[00:43:08] you know, hopeful.
[00:43:09] Like all those things are true some, you know, sometimes, and it's not black or white.
[00:43:15] And so all of these relationships with my biological family, especially my, my biological mother's
[00:43:21] family, uh, because I have two siblings on that side of it too.
[00:43:25] It's always unfolding and evolving.
[00:43:28] And it is reflective of myself, you know, how I figure that out and how I show up for
[00:43:35] that.
[00:43:37] So it's always unfolding.
[00:43:43] So you're talking about the relationships unfolding and life.
[00:43:47] Yeah.
[00:43:47] And relationship with myself.
[00:43:50] Yeah.
[00:43:51] Relationships in general.
[00:43:53] Um, but you know, I, I always wanted to go, I, I guess I, it is for me an adventure
[00:44:00] is like you, you explore every crevice, every cavity, every cave.
[00:44:05] You just explore if it's in front of you, how could you not peek in, you know?
[00:44:10] And so I've done that.
[00:44:12] I think in a lot of ways, but, you know, still unfolding, um, with my relationships and my
[00:44:19] biological family, um, and with myself, you know, through that.
[00:44:26] Yeah.
[00:44:28] Yeah.
[00:44:28] Do you mean uppercase to myself?
[00:44:30] Yeah.
[00:44:31] Yeah.
[00:44:31] My, me, yeah.
[00:44:33] My, my relationship with me as I go through that stuff, you know, because I'm not, I don't
[00:44:41] always show up all so nice, you know, like sometimes I'm like, you know, well, that just sucked
[00:44:46] what you just said.
[00:44:47] You know, if my biological mom said something and, um, I, I have these welled up feelings
[00:44:53] of anger or rage or, you know, uh, why me?
[00:44:58] And, you know, and you parented my siblings and, you know, all these things that unfold
[00:45:05] and evolve and pop up at, at unexpected times that you have to figure out, you have to work
[00:45:12] through it.
[00:45:12] Yeah.
[00:45:16] So what's, you talked about curiosity.
[00:45:22] You've been talking about curiosity all the way through.
[00:45:23] What are you curious about?
[00:45:27] Are you, um, like, I presume as a practicing, a counselor, a therapist, what word do you prefer?
[00:45:38] You were a therapist, yeah?
[00:45:40] Is that the word?
[00:45:40] Yeah.
[00:45:41] I mean, yeah.
[00:45:41] Yep.
[00:45:42] I work with adoptive families.
[00:45:43] Yep.
[00:45:44] That of, you know, having some challenges.
[00:45:47] Having some challenges.
[00:45:48] Um, uh, do you have to do, presumably have to do sort of like a continuing professional
[00:45:53] development in, in, in that space?
[00:45:55] And do you have some, some people say in some, does some therapist have to have a supervisor
[00:46:01] as well?
[00:46:02] Is that right?
[00:46:03] Do you have to?
[00:46:04] Yeah.
[00:46:05] Yep.
[00:46:06] Um, oh yeah, no, I think it's always great to have somebody to talk through things
[00:46:10] with and challenges you're experiencing.
[00:46:13] Yep.
[00:46:14] And I also, um, pursued a certification in what's called DDP, dyadic developmental psychotherapy,
[00:46:21] which I think we talked about a little bit.
[00:46:24] Yeah.
[00:46:24] Yeah.
[00:46:25] Which is actually a big deal over in England and Scotland and not as prevalent in the United
[00:46:31] States.
[00:46:32] But I, I loved all of the framework of that model because it was so specific to some of
[00:46:39] the vulnerabilities experienced by foster and adoptive kids and families.
[00:46:44] Yeah.
[00:46:44] And so I got, you know, so I'm growing, I'm always growing and learning.
[00:46:48] And that was a recent certification I got.
[00:46:51] Yeah.
[00:46:52] Um, so, you know, now I'm practicing DDP in Delaware.
[00:46:57] Is there a, is there a book that can give us a flavor of DDP?
[00:47:02] Like, like a layman's guide?
[00:47:06] Like personally?
[00:47:07] Yeah.
[00:47:07] I mean, you can look up online anything under Dr. Daniel Hughes.
[00:47:12] Okay.
[00:47:13] Yeah.
[00:47:13] And he is the founder, creator of this model.
[00:47:16] And he was actually my mentor through, through being certified at DDP.
[00:47:22] Um, I've, I've heard of, I've heard of Dan Hughes.
[00:47:25] I probably heard it in relation to, to, to DDP.
[00:47:29] Yeah.
[00:47:29] Yeah.
[00:47:30] I'm sure.
[00:47:30] But forgotten.
[00:47:31] Yeah.
[00:47:32] Yep.
[00:47:33] He's, he's wonderful.
[00:47:34] And I learned a lot.
[00:47:36] Um, I learned a lot about myself.
[00:47:39] So I'm, I'm always growing and changing and evolving too.
[00:47:43] Like, you know.
[00:47:45] Is the one book, is there a certain book of Dan Hughes?
[00:47:50] Oh yeah.
[00:47:51] So many, um, attachment focus, family therapy.
[00:47:55] Uh, that's a one.
[00:47:58] Um, I'm thinking of for, for, for lay people like me.
[00:48:03] Cause I like, like, I like the Dick Schwartz, uh, no bad parts.
[00:48:08] Yeah.
[00:48:09] And, um, uh, what's Peter Levine and the trauma, um, you know, waking the tide.
[00:48:14] Yeah.
[00:48:14] I don't want to misspeak cause yeah.
[00:48:17] I, I, I'll do some digging.
[00:48:19] Yeah.
[00:48:19] Yeah.
[00:48:19] I can always, yeah.
[00:48:20] I can always let you know if I.
[00:48:22] Okay.
[00:48:23] Cool.
[00:48:24] Um, cause when the, when, when we talk about relationship with ourselves, I find that maybe
[00:48:37] it's cause I used to be in publishing and I can be a bit pedantic, you know, I think,
[00:48:43] well, what does that relationship with ourselves?
[00:48:46] Um, and, and for me, it, what it, what parts work does is okay.
[00:48:53] Well, so we're talking about the relationship between different parts of us.
[00:49:00] That's when we're saying a relationship with ourself, that, that, um, I don't know if I
[00:49:07] ever come to that or I just came to that realization that moment, but that's what it, that, that's
[00:49:14] what it seems to me to be, you know, relationship with us, relationship with ourselves.
[00:49:20] And, and, and though I, I, I love the best bit I got from that, um, from that Dick Schwartz
[00:49:28] thing was the, the, the title, no bad parts.
[00:49:33] Yeah, exactly.
[00:49:34] You know, whereas I've, whereas, whereas I have, um, been upset about my worrier.
[00:49:43] Yeah.
[00:49:44] Yeah.
[00:49:45] Yeah.
[00:49:45] I've worried about.
[00:49:46] It's an acceptance.
[00:49:47] Yeah.
[00:49:47] You're accepting all of it.
[00:49:49] No bad parts.
[00:49:50] Like, no, no, no, that doesn't mean to say that I do accept all bad parts until the time,
[00:49:55] you know?
[00:49:56] Um, but.
[00:49:59] So, but when one of, so I like, I like, I like the book.
[00:50:04] Um, and I like the approach.
[00:50:08] However, I feel that for, for me, what's more important than talking about the parts is
[00:50:19] because the, he's got the parts on the uppercase S self.
[00:50:24] And he talks about the uppercase S self briefly.
[00:50:28] And then it gets very complicated very quickly about these different parts.
[00:50:34] And I'm like, I can't, I, I, I, it's too complex, Dick.
[00:50:40] You know, it's too complex.
[00:50:41] If you just say, right.
[00:50:42] Well, make, do a book that's just about the seven C's.
[00:50:46] I think the seven C's are genius.
[00:50:48] You've heard.
[00:50:49] Oh, I haven't heard of that one.
[00:50:51] The seven C's.
[00:50:52] So seven C's.
[00:50:54] I was in not the seven C's.
[00:50:56] C's.
[00:50:57] S E A S.
[00:50:58] The seven C's.
[00:50:59] Letter C's.
[00:51:00] Letter C's.
[00:51:01] Right.
[00:51:01] The letter C's.
[00:51:02] And it makes the uppercase S self understandable.
[00:51:13] So I can't remember all the C's.
[00:51:17] All the C's.
[00:51:17] Yeah.
[00:51:18] But they are calm is one of them.
[00:51:24] Confident is another one.
[00:51:27] And the biggest, and the, but the biggest one I remember is, is connectedness.
[00:51:35] Because we're at that.
[00:51:36] And when I get to connectedness, I'm into that, that quote, we're not, we're not human beings having a spiritual experience.
[00:51:52] We're spiritual beings having a human experience.
[00:51:54] And then if you develop that on a little bit further, we're one spiritual being having seven billion human experiences.
[00:52:03] And then, and then we're, then we're all one.
[00:52:07] Right.
[00:52:07] And we're all one.
[00:52:09] And, and, and that feels to me a little bit like connectedness.
[00:52:17] And then we're into what, the stuff that I love.
[00:52:25] The non-duality.
[00:52:29] Oneness.
[00:52:30] Yeah.
[00:52:31] The oneness of it.
[00:52:32] The oneness of it all.
[00:52:34] You know, the uppercase S self, which is all about peace and harmony.
[00:52:41] And I'm thinking about you and the, and your, and your, and your, your peace call.
[00:52:46] Yeah.
[00:52:47] So he, he taught, Dick Schwartz talks about that being, I think he coined this phrase, maybe something else.
[00:52:53] Psycho-spiritual.
[00:52:55] Yeah.
[00:52:59] Yeah.
[00:53:01] It's a grand journey.
[00:53:05] That unfolds.
[00:53:06] Yeah.
[00:53:07] Yeah.
[00:53:07] That keeps unfolding.
[00:53:09] Yeah.
[00:53:09] You just have to choose to show up for it.
[00:53:14] You have to choose to show up for it.
[00:53:16] And sometimes there's no choice.
[00:53:18] Sometimes like a lot, a lot of the first part of the interview, you were, to me, you were saying no choice.
[00:53:31] There was no choice.
[00:53:31] I had to do this.
[00:53:32] There was no choice.
[00:53:34] Yeah.
[00:53:34] It's.
[00:53:35] Yeah.
[00:53:36] Yeah.
[00:53:37] In the beginning, it definitely was a huge driver.
[00:53:42] And it's unfolding.
[00:53:44] And I don't know, maybe, you know, I do have choices around a lot of different things about how I show up.
[00:53:51] You know?
[00:53:53] Yeah.
[00:53:57] That feels a great place to bring it in, Kim.
[00:54:01] Yeah, it does.
[00:54:03] Thank you.
[00:54:04] Yeah, of course.
[00:54:05] Thank you for having me.
[00:54:08] I'd love to know we can have another one for later in the year.
[00:54:11] So this identity stuff, I'd be very interested to hear your take on identity, to swap notes on.
[00:54:20] Yeah.
[00:54:21] Be happy to do that.
[00:54:24] Because when I think about the cure, when I think about curiosity and questioning, I think of an anxious questioning rather than questioning.
[00:54:38] So you've showed me a new side to that.
[00:54:45] Thank you.
[00:54:46] That's the beauty of sharing, you know, sharing together, you know?
[00:54:51] That's great.
[00:54:53] Thanks, listeners.
[00:54:54] Thanks, Kim.
[00:54:54] Thanks, listeners.
[00:54:55] We'll speak to you.
[00:54:56] Thank you, everyone.
[00:54:57] Thanks for having me again.
[00:54:59] Cheers.
[00:54:59] Bye-bye.