Filling In A Hole In My Identity With Molly Mathews

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Molly. Molly Mathews, looking forward to our conversation today, Molly.

[00:00:10] Yes, me too. I'm very excited. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:14] Excited. Well, let's hope we live up to expectations. Sorry, let's hope I live up to expectations, right? Yeah.

[00:00:21] So what comes to mind when you hear the name of the podcast, Thriving Adoptees, Molly?

[00:00:27] Yeah, what really comes to mind to me is just thinking about adoptees who have been able to grow and learn and really come into their identity of being an adoptee.

[00:00:44] I think that's really what stands out to me first.

[00:00:48] Yeah. Coming into that identity of being adoptee. So what does that mean? Stepping into that identity?

[00:00:56] Yeah, I think being adopted, at least for me, has always been such a big part of my identity.

[00:01:04] It's I've always known that I was adopted. I was adopted when I was just under two years old from Thailand.

[00:01:12] And my parents are very white. And so, you know, there was no hiding the fact that I was adopted.

[00:01:18] And so I always knew that I was adopted. I have an older sister that was adopted.

[00:01:24] And so adoption has always been a big part of our life.

[00:01:28] And I think for me, it was really learning how that piece of my story really fit into my identity, because I think it really has shaped who I am today.

[00:01:39] And I think there were times where I felt like that adoption made almost a hole in my identity.

[00:01:45] And there were pieces that felt like they were missing.

[00:01:48] But I think just through my story, I've really been able to fill those gaps in and feel like I don't have those missing parts of my identity anymore.

[00:01:59] Yeah. Yeah. So it created a hole. So what was the hole? Was it?

[00:02:07] Yeah, I think the hole is just always for me, just a wondering of what could have been what you know, where I came from, who my biological parents were and really just this wondering of, you know, what if what if my birth mother had decided to keep me?

[00:02:25] What if, you know, any number of circumstances had been different? How would my life be different?

[00:02:31] And I think growing up, sometimes I felt guilty thinking those thoughts because I truly love my family.

[00:02:37] I love my parents and my sister, and I know they have completely changed my life.

[00:02:43] So I think there were in the past has been some guilt along with those questions.

[00:02:48] And I think part of that, you know, definitely shapes your identity, too, when you kind of have those questions, but almost feel guilty asking them.

[00:02:56] Yeah. So what was the questioning? Was that kind of was that a nagging doubt? Was it was it really painful? Was it long standing? What? How was it? And when did it when did it start?

[00:03:15] Yeah, I think it started pretty young. Again, like I said, I always knew I was adopted.

[00:03:21] And I'm very grateful that my parents have always been very open about my adoption and have always been really willing just to answer any questions that I had or just to talk about it as I was growing up.

[00:03:35] But granted, as I was growing up, they didn't have a lot of information for me about my birth mother.

[00:03:40] We just didn't have a lot of information about her circumstances that led her to place me for adoption.

[00:03:47] And so they would answer, you know, my questions as best they could and say, you know, we don't know when they really didn't have those answers.

[00:03:54] And so I think those questionings of, you know, I wonder who she is and where she is and what she's doing had always been running in my mind from a very young age.

[00:04:06] And I think as I started to grow up, I kind of pushed those out of my brain a little bit because, you know, those weren't the questions my friends were thinking about.

[00:04:15] It kind of made me different from everyone around me.

[00:04:19] But I think especially as I became a young adult, it was definitely something that I felt like I needed to come to terms with to feel more comfortable in who I was.

[00:04:30] Because I think having those questions definitely gave me this sense of being unsettled, you know, in my identity and who I am.

[00:04:39] Yeah. So was that like a nagging pain? Was it a deep pain? Was it a lingering pain? What was that like for you?

[00:04:58] Yeah, I think it really went in waves. I think there were times in my life where it really didn't bother me.

[00:05:04] And I would kind of just say, well, you know, it is what it is. I may never have answers to those questions, you know, and that's, you know, I just have to accept that.

[00:05:13] But I think there are often times where that wasn't enough of an answer where I would really ponder those questions.

[00:05:20] And it really would, you know, create some deep uncomfortableness or pain and just wondering, like, would I ever get the answers to those questions?

[00:05:29] Because at the time, you know, growing up, it really didn't seem like I ever would.

[00:05:33] Yeah. Was there any pattern to the waves?

[00:05:40] Yeah, I think looking back now, I definitely see some patterns.

[00:05:44] I don't think as a child or even a teenager, I would have been able to verbalize it.

[00:05:49] But I think a lot of those times would come up when I felt like I was different from everyone else.

[00:05:57] When I've noticed those differences between, you know, my friends and their families and my family.

[00:06:03] I remember distinctly growing up one time, one of my friends from school was over at our house.

[00:06:09] And my mom had told us, oh, you know, a landscaper, someone's going to stop by and drop off the bill.

[00:06:16] Can you grab it from him when they come?

[00:06:18] And we were like, yeah, sure, because we were sitting outside.

[00:06:20] And that person walked up with the bill and handed it to my friend, assuming that my friend was the child of my parents and not me.

[00:06:28] And so I think just even those little moments that, you know, seem not a big deal.

[00:06:34] It was kind of those moments where I would kind of stop and think like, hey, my family is different than my friend's family.

[00:06:41] And that's when I would kind of start asking those questions again of thinking about my birth family.

[00:06:46] Yeah. And you mentioned your sister.

[00:06:49] Was she from, was she born in Thailand as well?

[00:06:53] Yeah, she was born in Thailand as well.

[00:06:55] We are not biologically related, but she, my parents adopted her a couple of years before they adopted me.

[00:07:02] And so I do think that helped a lot.

[00:07:05] I will say growing up, we didn't really talk much about our adoption to each other.

[00:07:09] Like that wasn't really something we talked about very much, but I do think just having someone else who looked more like me and who did have that adoption as part of their story in my family did help some.

[00:07:23] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:24] I have a younger sister on an older sister, but we didn't talk about it very, very often.

[00:07:30] Yeah.

[00:07:31] I guess it was there if we needed to, like a fallback.

[00:07:38] Yeah.

[00:07:40] Yeah.

[00:07:41] So you talked about feeling guilty about those, about the questions and the thoughts.

[00:07:49] And I think that's quite, I think a lot of us can relate to that, especially if we've got a good relationship with our adoptive parents, perhaps less so if the relationship isn't what one would like.

[00:08:10] Right.

[00:08:10] You talked about coming to terms with the questions that were running for you.

[00:08:21] Was that the end of the guilt or were they related, those two things, do you think?

[00:08:29] I think it was because I think when I was finally able to get some answers and get more information about my adoption story, about my birth mother and who she was and why she had placed me for adoption.

[00:08:46] I think it kind of filled in a lot of those gaps where, of course, the question of, well, what would my life have been like had she kept me?

[00:08:55] It's always going to be there.

[00:08:57] I think it's less of something that I almost feel like, you know, something that I feel like would have been realistic or I don't know if that's the right term, but it's not something that I think about as much anymore.

[00:09:12] Because I realize from my birth mother what her story was and how hard of a decision it was for her to place me for adoption.

[00:09:21] That is just not something that I really think about or ponder as much anymore.

[00:09:25] Yeah.

[00:09:26] Yeah.

[00:09:28] You mentioned that when we spoke last time about the profundity of that.

[00:09:36] So can you share a little bit more about what happened?

[00:09:40] Yeah.

[00:09:42] So growing up, again, like I said, my parents have always been very open about talking about my adoption and answering any questions that I had.

[00:09:51] And something that I feel like I told them pretty frequently was that if we ever had the opportunity, I would love to go meet my birth mother.

[00:09:59] I never actually expected that to be a real opportunity, but I'm just really grateful that my parents were always very open to that.

[00:10:07] And they said, you know, if that is ever a possibility, we'll definitely pursue that.

[00:10:12] And so when I was a teenager, they did reach out to my adoption agency just to see if they had any information about my birth mother or if it would be a possibility to meet her.

[00:10:24] And just in going back and forth with them, it turned out to be that it really would be a possibility and would be something that they would be able to help orchestrate.

[00:10:33] And so my freshman year of college, my whole family traveled back to Thailand and we got to meet my birth mother for the first time and spend several hours with her.

[00:10:44] And it really was a life changing experience for me.

[00:10:48] It definitely, again, was something I'd always said I wanted to do, but really didn't think would ever happen.

[00:10:54] But being able to, one, see her in person and see, like, I really did just look like a younger version of her and just seeing who it is that, you know, gave birth to me.

[00:11:06] But then also getting to hear her story and ask some of those questions of, you know, why did you place for me, place me for adoption?

[00:11:14] You know, what were the circumstances surrounding that?

[00:11:17] And just, you know, seeing and getting to hear her part of the story, because I knew my side of the story of the adoption, but I didn't know her side.

[00:11:26] And I think that was to hear that really kind of made everything come full circle.

[00:11:31] Yeah. And has your sister been able to connect with her birth mom, too?

[00:11:39] Yes, she has. So we actually did both meetings in the same day.

[00:11:43] So it was a very emotional day.

[00:11:46] Oh, wow.

[00:11:46] We met with my birth mother in the morning and then in the afternoon met with her birth mother as well.

[00:11:52] And so I'm really glad that we got to meet hers as well.

[00:11:56] It was never something that she had ever really expressed that she wanted to do.

[00:12:01] But I think for her, it was one of those things where it's like, well, I probably will never get this experience again.

[00:12:08] And if I don't do it, I may regret not doing it.

[00:12:11] So she agreed to do it as well.

[00:12:14] And I think having both of us get to share that experience together was really special.

[00:12:20] Yeah. And have you talked about it more since that?

[00:12:26] Because you said that you didn't talk a lot about adoption going on.

[00:12:30] Yeah, I mean, we definitely have talked about that experience and have shared with other friends and families, you know, what that experience was like.

[00:12:39] But I would say even now, adoption is not something that we talk about a lot.

[00:12:44] And I think part of it is also just our personalities.

[00:12:47] Like, I think for me, being adopted has always felt like it was at the forefront of my identity.

[00:12:54] It was at the forefront of who I am.

[00:12:56] Whereas for her, not that it wasn't a big deal, but it wasn't something that she necessarily felt like was such a big piece of her identity.

[00:13:05] It was something that she was okay with, you know, not thinking about all the time or, you know, that kind of thing.

[00:13:12] And so I think that also is part of it is where for me, it's been a much bigger part of who I feel that I am than, you know, for her experience.

[00:13:20] Yeah.

[00:13:22] And when did you meet your birth?

[00:13:25] You said it was in freshman year.

[00:13:27] Yeah, of college.

[00:13:28] So it's been over 10 years.

[00:13:30] I want to say maybe, yeah, I guess 10 years, I think this year.

[00:13:34] Yeah.

[00:13:35] And how has the relationship been since then?

[00:13:41] Has there been much contact or?

[00:13:43] No, there wasn't.

[00:13:44] She did pass away a couple of years ago, but we were able before she passed away, we did connect on social media.

[00:13:51] We didn't talk a lot.

[00:13:53] I mean, there was, you know, the language barrier.

[00:13:56] And so that made it difficult.

[00:13:57] And I also think there was also just a little bit of awkwardness of having that much accessibility to each other.

[00:14:06] At least I felt that on my end of it did feel a little bit awkward.

[00:14:10] But I do think it was nice that, you know, we were able to have that connecting point where she could kind of keep up with my life and just see how I was doing.

[00:14:20] I think for her, one of the things that she shared with me is that she was just so afraid that she had made the wrong decision.

[00:14:29] Like she wanted me to have a much better life than the life that she felt like she could give me.

[00:14:34] And so her fear was that she would have done this really hard thing of giving me up for adoption and then my life would have turned out really bad and she would have felt really guilty for that.

[00:14:45] And so I think for her to be able to see that I do have a really great life and that I am thriving was really healing for her.

[00:14:55] Yeah.

[00:14:57] Yeah.

[00:14:58] I can see that.

[00:15:00] I can see that.

[00:15:04] And I'm wondering because you work in the adoption sector, right?

[00:15:10] Yes, I do.

[00:15:11] So how has that impacted your take on adoption?

[00:15:21] Yeah, I do definitely think it's a little conflicting at times.

[00:15:27] Like I have a really great experience with adoption.

[00:15:31] My parents are absolutely wonderful.

[00:15:33] I've had this opportunity to go meet my birth mother and, you know, have learned that, you know, my birth mother didn't just abandon me.

[00:15:41] She didn't just give me up because she didn't want me.

[00:15:43] And so I've been able, you know, to have these really great experiences within my adoption.

[00:15:49] And I think that has really been what inspired me to also work in adoption.

[00:15:55] But on the flip side, I know that's also not true for everyone.

[00:15:58] I know there are adoptees out there who have had really, really hard or challenging experiences who do not get along with their parents or who, you know, don't know anything about their background or do know that really their biological parents didn't want them.

[00:16:16] Whatever the circumstances are, I know that my experience is not universal.

[00:16:20] And so I think that's definitely something that can be challenging because even though I've had a good experience, I have to remind myself that that's not true for everyone.

[00:16:30] And trying to keep that in perspective of not just only championing how great adoption is and how wonderful adoption is while ignoring, you know, the challenges and hurts that other people have experienced in adoption.

[00:16:44] Yeah.

[00:16:47] What are the differences do you think?

[00:16:51] I almost said difference, right?

[00:16:53] But that would be a mass simplification.

[00:16:55] So what do you think the differences are?

[00:17:00] What are the differences that make the differences?

[00:17:07] Yeah.

[00:17:08] I mean, I think there are a lot of things.

[00:17:10] One, I do think my parents just being so open to talk about adoption was really helpful because it helped let me know that my adoption wasn't something shameful or something they wanted to hide.

[00:17:23] And realistically, it wasn't something they could hide.

[00:17:26] No, they couldn't hide that.

[00:17:27] Yeah.

[00:17:27] But it wasn't like it was something that they celebrated.

[00:17:30] And so I think that made a big difference for me was knowing, you know, always thinking of my adoption in a positive light and a celebratory light in the sense of my parents were excited to bring me into their family.

[00:17:46] And I think also just having other people in my life that were also adopted.

[00:17:52] My parents were really intentional about having family friends who adopted as well.

[00:17:57] When we were younger, we'd go to like reunions with families that had adopted through our adoption agency.

[00:18:03] And so I think, again, those things as well of just kind of painting this picture of adoption doesn't have to be the abnormal thing.

[00:18:11] Like there are other kids who have gone through this experience as well.

[00:18:14] And it's something we can celebrate while also still having questions and knowing we may not be able to answer all of them.

[00:18:22] Yeah.

[00:18:23] So the openness, the honesty and the normalization of it was big for you.

[00:18:27] Yeah.

[00:18:28] Yes, for sure.

[00:18:29] Yeah.

[00:18:30] I often wonder, you know, how these two things stack together as a, you know, I come at this from quite a left brain logic perspective in terms of the pain at relinquishment.

[00:18:49] Mm-hmm.

[00:18:50] Yeah.

[00:18:50] So relinquishment is one factor, the stuff around that, but also the stuff about how we're brought up.

[00:19:00] Mm-hmm.

[00:19:00] And that, to me, it seems to be, those two things seem to multiply rather than add to one other.

[00:19:10] Yeah.

[00:19:10] So if we have, if the pain at relinquishment is low, but the challenges within the adoptive parents are high, then that leads to a certain outcome.

[00:19:27] But if both of them are high, it's not one plus eight equals nine.

[00:19:35] It's one, you know, two times nine equals 18.

[00:19:39] It seems to.

[00:19:41] Yes.

[00:19:42] I don't know.

[00:19:43] Maybe I'm spending too much time trying to rationalize it, but I look at those two different factors because I think they both play a part.

[00:19:51] How does it look to you?

[00:19:53] Yeah.

[00:19:54] Yeah.

[00:19:54] I think it's definitely when I think about adoption now and my story, I think of it as, you know, for so long, it really was just my side of the adoption story or, you know, my parents' experience of the adoption that, you know, I really had context for.

[00:20:15] But learning more about my birth mother and, you know, how she came to be in that place of needing to relinquish me.

[00:20:23] Like, I think that has given me more perspective on the story and knowing that for her, it wasn't that she didn't want me, but it was that she really didn't feel like financially she had the resources to do so.

[00:20:39] I think it's helpful in just knowing, like, all adoption starts in a hard place.

[00:20:45] Like, you know, no child is being placed for adoption, you know, in a happy-go-lucky type of scenario.

[00:20:53] Like, it's all coming out of a hard situation.

[00:20:56] And I think that can be really hard, especially in being someone that works in adoption, because sometimes I see, you know, these kids that are being adopted now who are in similar situations where it really is a poverty issue or a lack of resources issue.

[00:21:15] And I think, you know, these kids have family members who love them and care for them.

[00:21:20] And, you know, that's not, it's not the lack of family, it's the lack of resources.

[00:21:26] But at the same time, if we can't just not do the work that we're doing, because the alternative would be for these kids to just keep growing up in orphanages.

[00:21:35] And so there is definitely, I think, a complicated, you know, side to both of trying to, you know, to make it both make sense in my head.

[00:21:45] Yeah.

[00:21:47] So how does being adopted yourself inform your professional work, do you think?

[00:21:55] I think it's helpful.

[00:21:57] And, you know, a lot of what I do is just walking with families from the entire process of, you know, deciding they want to adopt internationally all the way to bringing their child home.

[00:22:08] And so I think for a lot of families that I work with, I'm able to share that I was adopted and, you know, share how adoption has really changed my life.

[00:22:19] And I think it's able to provide the families that I work with, with some hope and with some excitement and what's to come for their family.

[00:22:27] But I do also think there are times where maybe I feel more sad about things that maybe some of my coworkers don't.

[00:22:35] For example, you know, we always try and celebrate when a child comes home to their family and their family gets, you know, come back to the U.S.

[00:22:43] And of course, that is such an exciting thing.

[00:22:45] But there is always this part of me that just feels so sad for the child to be leaving everything they know and to be leaving their home country and to be leaving all of that behind.

[00:22:56] And so it's always just this bittersweet thing in me when we get to those moments that I know my coworkers probably, you know, understand from a logistical standpoint, but maybe not as much from a personal standpoint.

[00:23:11] And so I think there's definitely moments like that where I feel things a little bit more personally than I would have if I wasn't adopted.

[00:23:21] So is it, you know, how would you describe it?

[00:23:25] Is it like a trigger?

[00:23:26] Is it like an echo of the past?

[00:23:30] Presumably it's touching some point within you, right?

[00:23:35] Yeah, I think it is a little bit of an echo of the past.

[00:23:41] I mean, I was under the age of two when I was adopted.

[00:23:44] So I don't have, you know, a lot of memories of, you know, what that was like when I was at that age.

[00:23:52] But I do know growing up, like I've always felt this connection to Thailand and I've always wanted to be a part of the culture and, you know, learn more about Thai history and things like that.

[00:24:04] And so I think that piece of it of thinking about other kids out there who may also grow up feeling that same way about their birth country, I think is what makes it a little bit bittersweet.

[00:24:17] Yeah, I'm just thinking about my own experience and that echo and what it meant for me.

[00:24:28] I think I used to sometimes watch the Long Longs family program on television.

[00:24:35] So we have a UK version, like US version.

[00:24:39] And it was seeing the birth mothers and feeling that obvious love for their kid, feeling that love used to have me in tears.

[00:25:01] Because it was an echo of my birth mother's love for me.

[00:25:08] That's what that's kind of what I what I felt.

[00:25:11] And and that had me in.

[00:25:14] Yeah.

[00:25:16] I never put the word bittersweet with it, but I guess that's what it was, because these were these were tears of the tears for the loss of her.

[00:25:31] It didn't feel like that.

[00:25:32] It felt like it felt like tears of almost like tears of.

[00:25:39] Joy.

[00:25:42] And I actually feeling their love.

[00:25:45] Yeah, kids in the same way as as a substitute for feeling my birth mother's love and the the experience that I had feeling that for the first time reading a letter.

[00:26:03] From her.

[00:26:05] So.

[00:26:07] Yeah, I can't even imagine.

[00:26:10] And that was a very powerful moment.

[00:26:14] That was reading a letter.

[00:26:16] So being in Thailand, whatever that is like 5000 miles away.

[00:26:22] How many years?

[00:26:23] How many miles?

[00:26:23] How many thousand miles is it?

[00:26:25] How far is it?

[00:26:26] I don't know.

[00:26:28] I know we were on a plane for a very long time.

[00:26:32] Yeah.

[00:26:32] You have to change planes as well, I would imagine.

[00:26:35] So the the the the power of that moment must be must have been incredible.

[00:26:45] It was and it definitely was one of those things that I really didn't know what to expect at all, because, you know, I meeting your birth mom for the first time isn't a common experience.

[00:26:59] And so I didn't have friends or things like that that I could ask them, like, hey, what was it like when you met your birth mom for the first time?

[00:27:06] And so I really didn't know what to expect.

[00:27:09] I mean, I knew at that point that she did want to meet me.

[00:27:12] I'd seen a couple of photos of her at that point.

[00:27:15] When I was younger, she did send a letter at one point just sharing that she did love me and care about me.

[00:27:21] But I really didn't know what else to expect.

[00:27:26] And even just going into it, I was kind of like, what do you talk about?

[00:27:30] Like, there's so many questions.

[00:27:32] But at the same time, you just don't know how that conversation is going to go.

[00:27:38] And I think my mom did a lot of hard work before we went and she printed out a ton of childhood photos and put them into photo albums that I could take to bring and show her.

[00:27:51] And I think that was really helpful.

[00:27:52] But just really, we showed up at the adoption agency that morning and they were like, hey, your birth mother got here really early.

[00:28:01] She's been here waiting.

[00:28:04] She's essentially been crying ever since she got here.

[00:28:07] And she's really nervous.

[00:28:09] And so I just really didn't know what to expect.

[00:28:12] And so they took us, you know, to their little reception area room and then they brought her in.

[00:28:18] And it was just, you know, I really couldn't have asked for anything more.

[00:28:21] I mean, she was absolutely sobbing when she came in.

[00:28:24] But I was immediately just astounded by how much I looked like her.

[00:28:29] Like, because, you know, I'd never seen anyone that looked so much like me.

[00:28:34] And so to see this lady who literally was just 16 years older than me, who looked exactly like me, was crazy to have that experience.

[00:28:45] And of course, she came over and immediately grabbed onto me and hugged me.

[00:28:51] And she just wouldn't look me in the eye at all, though.

[00:28:54] Like, you could just tell that she was so nervous and so scared.

[00:28:58] And I was able just to tell her right away that I wasn't angry at her and that I was just so grateful that she was willing to meet me.

[00:29:08] And I think that kind of immediately helped take away some of her nervousness because I think she was afraid that I was just going to be angry at her.

[00:29:16] And so for her to know that I wasn't angry and to kind of start the conversation off that way made it a lot easier to have, you know, to talk to her more in depth, to learn more about who she was and the story behind my adoption and just share with her about my wife.

[00:29:33] Yeah.

[00:29:35] Wow.

[00:29:38] So did you go and see her again?

[00:29:40] Or was that just was that the only time that you met her?

[00:29:43] Yeah, that was the only time that I met her.

[00:29:48] So and I'm really glad that I got that opportunity before she passed away.

[00:29:53] Definitely think had I never had that opportunity, I don't know that I would be working in adoption today.

[00:30:01] But I also think my sense of self would be very different.

[00:30:05] I don't know.

[00:30:06] I think those kind of empty spots, I would still feel very deeply in my heart.

[00:30:12] I wouldn't feel, you know, I would feel like I had a lot of unanswered questions and a lot of those what if questions still.

[00:30:20] Yeah.

[00:30:21] Was there a lot of pain with the questions?

[00:30:25] Yeah, I think so.

[00:30:27] Because, you know, she was a young mom, and I knew that much about her.

[00:30:35] And so I knew it couldn't have been an easy decision for her.

[00:30:40] But I think, again, I think with any adoption, there's going to be pain with it, you know, like even no matter how great your adoption story is, there's still going to be some hurt and some pain.

[00:30:51] Because I think, you know, at the end of the day, you know, you will think about, well, what if my birth parent situation had been different?

[00:31:00] And I did, you know, grow up with her and she didn't do this because she didn't love me because she didn't want me.

[00:31:09] And so I think there definitely just is some pain in knowing, kind of like what you were saying, there's pain in knowing her pain in what she went through for my life to get to the point that it is today.

[00:31:24] It took extreme sacrifice on her end for me to have this life.

[00:31:30] And I really wouldn't be here today without, you know, that heartache and that pain that she went through.

[00:31:37] And I think I feel a lot of compassion for her in that.

[00:31:42] Yeah.

[00:31:43] So what's eased your pain, Molly?

[00:31:47] Yeah, I think, I think obviously meeting her was a big thing and just getting to hear her say, you know, I loved you and I still love you.

[00:32:02] And I didn't place you for adoption because I didn't want you.

[00:32:05] I think that was a big thing.

[00:32:06] But I think from there, once I was able to accept that, it was also just really learning to accept or celebrate my adoption as well.

[00:32:20] Like my parents always did a wonderful job of celebrating my adoption story.

[00:32:25] And they were always happy to share with friends and family about the fact that my sister and I were adopted.

[00:32:32] But I think there was always this part of me that kind of felt a little shy or I don't really want to say ashamed.

[00:32:40] But it was almost just this part of me that I didn't really want to share because, you know, it made me different.

[00:32:45] And, of course, when you start sharing about your adoption story, there's usually a lot of questions that people will start asking you.

[00:32:52] And so I think after meeting my birth mom, I was able to kind of start celebrating the adoption for me and for myself.

[00:33:04] I had friends at that time who were so supportive and that really, you know, helped me process through some of those feelings and emotions of meeting my birth mom.

[00:33:15] And I had friends that really celebrated Thai culture.

[00:33:18] They would ask me to make them Thai food.

[00:33:20] They would ask me to take them to the Asian market and things like that.

[00:33:24] And so suddenly being able to, like, share those things and to want to share those parts of my story and, you know, my birth culture with them versus feeling like I wanted to hide those things.

[00:33:36] I think that made all the difference.

[00:33:39] Yeah.

[00:33:39] Yeah.

[00:33:45] So had she, you talked about the fact that she died a couple of years ago.

[00:33:49] Yeah.

[00:33:50] And was it, did you know that she was ill?

[00:33:53] Did it come as a shock out of the blue or, you know, what was it?

[00:33:56] How was it?

[00:33:57] Yeah.

[00:33:58] She had reached out on Instagram and had told me that she was pretty sick and in the hospital.

[00:34:04] And it was a little bit of a weird situation because I think she genuinely did want me to know that she was really sick.

[00:34:13] She had been sick pretty significantly once before that I'd been informed of where our adoption agency had told us, hey, she's pretty sick.

[00:34:24] But she had reached out and told me that she was in the hospital, that she had cancer and she was not doing very well.

[00:34:32] And so I think she did really want me to know that.

[00:34:35] But then there's also this part of it where she was also, you know, kind of asking for financial support with some of the medical expenses.

[00:34:42] And so I think that was a really hard place to be, to kind of, you know, be in that spot of, well, she's asking me for money and she's my birth mom.

[00:34:53] But I also don't really know her that well.

[00:34:56] And so it definitely made for a very, I would say, uncomfortable situation of just trying to figure out, well, how do you navigate this?

[00:35:04] Because, you know, I was an adult at that point and we had already met in person.

[00:35:10] So it's not like there would be necessarily anything wrong with sending her financial help.

[00:35:17] But it still didn't feel right to do that either.

[00:35:20] But she was sharing, you know, I'm in the hospital and I'm really sick.

[00:35:25] And so it definitely was just a very weird spot to be in.

[00:35:30] Yeah.

[00:35:32] Though I guess when she passed, that's going to be even more weird, right?

[00:35:38] Yeah, it was very strange.

[00:35:40] Things I learned about her passing because her boyfriend had actually reached out to me on Instagram and said, hey, your birth mother passed away.

[00:35:51] And he had sent me a couple photos from her funeral.

[00:35:56] And then at that point, I reached out to my adoption agency and had asked, like, hey, can you, is there any way that you guys can just get confirmation of when she passed and like that kind of information?

[00:36:07] And so they were also able on their side to get some confirmation as well and send over some like documents or things like that.

[00:36:17] And so it definitely was weird feeling like I could have, you know, there are things that I could have done.

[00:36:26] I could have tried to help more.

[00:36:27] I could have done X, Y and Z.

[00:36:30] But also at the end of the day, I don't know that there really was anything that I could do.

[00:36:36] And I think I'm just I think back on that.

[00:36:39] And I'm just really happy that I was able to meet her before she did pass away.

[00:36:44] Yeah.

[00:36:45] Yeah.

[00:36:54] Did it hit you hard?

[00:36:56] I think it did.

[00:36:58] Because I think even before I met her, I'd always, you know, kind of had that thought in my head of, well, she's out there somewhere, you know, and to now know that she's not alive.

[00:37:10] And I think even though we didn't communicate a lot on social media after we met in person, I think there was comfort in, you know, the idea of, well, there always is the possibility to communicate more.

[00:37:25] There always is that possibility to connect more.

[00:37:28] And she had even told me when I met her in person that, like, hey, if you ever come back to Thailand, I would love to meet you again.

[00:37:36] I would love to introduce you to my mom and to your other family members and things like that.

[00:37:41] And so even though there were no real plans set in place to do those things, I think just knowing that there was the possibility of those things was exciting and hopeful.

[00:37:54] And to now know that, you know, she's passed away and I won't get to talk to her again or, you know, ask her more questions or things like that is really hard.

[00:38:04] Because even though I don't know her that well, she's such a big part of my story and who I am.

[00:38:11] Yeah.

[00:38:15] I mean, you mentioned the money thing and her asking you for money.

[00:38:24] What do you think about the whole money thing in adoption and international adoption?

[00:38:36] What's as you what do you make of all that?

[00:38:41] Yeah, I think it's really, really hard.

[00:38:45] I think like you just from, you know, the situation of a birth parent asking their child for money.

[00:38:52] I think that's just really hard.

[00:38:54] And I don't think I've really even fully wrapped my head around head around that situation.

[00:39:00] And if another adoptee came to me and said, hey, my birth parent is asking for money, I don't know that I would really have an answer to give them.

[00:39:10] And with, you know, international adoption as a whole, I think it's just really, really hard because I work at an agency where we try our very hardest to do everything very ethically and to make sure that, you know, there is full transparency.

[00:39:28] And there's nothing that could ever, you know, be misconstrued or done wrongly in international adoption.

[00:39:37] But at the same time, international adoption is so expensive.

[00:39:40] And there's so many kids out there still that are growing up in orphanages because they don't have families or their biological families don't have the resources to care for them.

[00:39:53] And so, yeah, it's one of those things that I feel like I wrestle with a lot of between wanting to advocate for more adoptions, but also feeling like I should also be advocating for those kids to be able to stay in their biological families.

[00:40:10] So did you stay with your mom until the adoption or were you in an orphanage at some point?

[00:40:18] Do you know?

[00:40:19] I was in a foster home for, yeah, when I don't know.

[00:40:24] I know she did try and keep me for, there was a couple of months where she did try and keep me and she was just felt like she really wasn't able to.

[00:40:33] So then the adoption agency placed me in a foster family.

[00:40:38] And I was actually able to meet my foster family or visit with them again once when I was in middle school.

[00:40:48] And then also when we went to go meet my birth mother, we went back and visited with them as well.

[00:40:54] And so that was a really great experience too.

[00:40:58] Yeah.

[00:40:59] Yeah.

[00:41:00] Wow.

[00:41:03] It's incredible.

[00:41:04] I know I interviewed another transracial adoptee yesterday and the variety of the stories and the experiences never ceases to amaze me.

[00:41:19] Is there anything that I've not asked you about, Molly, that you'd like to share?

[00:41:27] No, I don't think so.

[00:41:30] You asked really great questions.

[00:41:32] And I, you know, back to your first question of, you know, what do you think of when you think of a thriving adoptee?

[00:41:38] I think it's going to look different for everyone because, like you said, especially in international adoption, each adoption is so different.

[00:41:47] And there are some people that have had really good experiences in adoption and some people that have had really, really hard experiences.

[00:41:55] And so I think it's going to look different for everyone.

[00:41:59] But for me, at least, a huge part of it was just coming to terms with how adoption fit into my identity.

[00:42:06] Yeah.

[00:42:08] Yeah.

[00:42:12] Do you feel, because you talked about being guilty earlier on, you know, I sometimes feel that I got lucky.

[00:42:22] Do you know what I mean?

[00:42:24] Like, obviously, you'd have no, I had no comparison as a kid.

[00:42:29] I didn't have a comparison of any other, because I didn't know any of the adopted kids, right?

[00:42:33] I didn't have any comparison.

[00:42:35] But these days, when I talk to people, I think, well, I got lucky, you know?

[00:42:43] Yeah.

[00:42:44] And I guess there's a huge difference.

[00:42:50] We've talked about this a couple of times on the show recently.

[00:42:53] Not so recently, but maybe earlier in the year about this kind of spontaneous internal gratitude versus the forced gratitude.

[00:43:05] And how if I came up with this idea, I don't know how big it is.

[00:43:12] And I'd welcome your view on this, that if we've been told to be grateful and we don't feel grateful, then does that actually stop us feeling grateful in the future?

[00:43:28] Does that get in the way of our own gratitude?

[00:43:33] Does that make any sense?

[00:43:34] Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:43:36] And I feel like it definitely can, or I feel like it can make you feel guilty if you don't feel grateful.

[00:43:44] You know, you have that sense of guilt.

[00:43:46] And I definitely think, especially when I was going off to college and like a fresh new young adult starting to make some of my own independent decisions,

[00:43:56] I definitely wrestled with that of feeling like I almost owed my parents to do the things that they wanted me to do and to try and do things to make them happy because they have given me so much.

[00:44:10] But also kind of sitting there and thinking like, well, like they didn't adopt me so that I would owe them, you know, in any way.

[00:44:17] Like that wasn't the intent.

[00:44:19] And they've never done or said anything that, you know, would make me think like, oh, they are expecting me to give them something out of this.

[00:44:27] Yeah.

[00:44:29] But yeah, it definitely, I think that is definitely a thing to struggle with.

[00:44:34] And I've been trying very hard with the families that I work with now to kind of pose it more as like this child is going to bring so much to your family versus your family is going to give so much to this child.

[00:44:48] Yeah.

[00:44:49] Interesting.

[00:44:50] Interesting.

[00:44:52] People, you talk about going to college.

[00:44:55] I've spoken to a few other transracial adoptees and said that's been quite significant for them because they've been in very white areas and then they go to college and it's not, it's a more diverse mix.

[00:45:12] Was that your experience?

[00:45:14] Was that big for you?

[00:45:15] Yeah, that was definitely my experience.

[00:45:17] I went to the same school all the way from preschool until when I graduated high school.

[00:45:24] My graduating class had maybe 35 of us and five of us had been in preschool together.

[00:45:31] So it was a very small group, very primarily white.

[00:45:35] I think I had maybe one or two classmates that weren't white.

[00:45:38] And so it was a very white community that I grew up in.

[00:45:44] And then I went to an extremely large university that was very, very diverse and had a lot of, you know, different blending of cultures and a lot of international students.

[00:45:55] And so it really was a very different experience.

[00:46:01] But I think it was such a good experience because, like you said, getting to be around people of different cultures and also just having friends that were genuinely interested in different cultures and different holidays that people celebrate and things like that made me feel more comfortable to share about being adopted from Thailand than I necessarily felt like growing up.

[00:46:24] Not that, like, you know, growing up, anyone really said or did anything that was blatantly like, we don't care about your adoption story or learning about Thailand.

[00:46:34] But it just wasn't something that I felt like I really wanted to share.

[00:46:40] Yeah.

[00:46:42] That school, that one school all the way through, that continuity, that must have been, well, I mean, I don't know, because you wouldn't know any difference.

[00:46:56] I can just, from my own experience, I can just think of a lack of continuity in another area of my life.

[00:47:06] So I was in the Scouts, right?

[00:47:11] So we go from, we call it Cubs and then Scouts.

[00:47:14] So you do Cubs from, I don't know, 6 to 11 and then Scouts from 11 to 16, something like that.

[00:47:22] I'm sure it's slightly different in this.

[00:47:24] But we, in our town, there were two different streams, right?

[00:47:32] So you, one was called Templars and one was called Lions.

[00:47:39] So you went from, you know, usually you would go from Lions Cubs to Lions Scouts, right?

[00:47:47] You would have that sense of continuity.

[00:47:50] And I didn't.

[00:47:51] I went from Templars to Lions and I don't think I had any time with those other kids.

[00:48:01] I didn't know anybody else there.

[00:48:02] And then when I went on camp with them, I think that was the first thing that I ever had to do.

[00:48:08] And I got treated really badly.

[00:48:13] Now, I'm sure that, well, I'm not sure.

[00:48:17] I would imagine part of the, if I'd known them from previously, I don't think they would have treated me as badly.

[00:48:26] Yeah.

[00:48:27] So when you talked about the continuity all the way through, that was the thing that flipped for me.

[00:48:32] That must, that must have been great because in just in this little piece of my life, that, that, that wasn't great.

[00:48:39] That, that change, change of time.

[00:48:43] Yeah, definitely.

[00:48:44] I think I definitely am really grateful that I was able, you know, grow.

[00:48:49] A lot of people ask me when they find out I went to such a small school, like, well, did it, did you hate it?

[00:48:54] And I'm like, no, I didn't hate it.

[00:48:56] Like, I had really good friends because we knew each other since we were in preschool.

[00:49:02] Like, I had really good friendships.

[00:49:05] And it was, but it was definitely made it, I think it made the experience of going to college when you have so much change and so many other people.

[00:49:15] It made that, made that change even feel so much greater because it was just so different than anything.

[00:49:23] And again, like you said, there was so much continuity and so much routine in my life up until that point to then be thrown onto a college campus career.

[00:49:32] Yeah, there's nothing that's remotely the same.

[00:49:35] It was very, it was, it took definitely an adjustment period.

[00:49:40] And with the friend, you talked about the friends celebrating the Thai part of your life and the food.

[00:49:46] And that's, were they the, were they the friends that you had from, from high school or were they?

[00:49:52] No, they were the friends in college.

[00:49:54] In college, yeah, right.

[00:49:55] Yeah, I think when I, you know, I was in like high school, middle school, like my friends knew that I was adopted and it was just kind of like a normal thing almost.

[00:50:05] Like you just knew because they'd known me for so long, they just knew it was part of my story.

[00:50:10] It wasn't really something we ever talked about.

[00:50:12] I do know, you know, growing up in elementary school, my parents every year, we celebrate what we call our America Day, but essentially your gotcha day.

[00:50:21] And so we celebrate that and they would come bring in, you know, treats to school like it was a birthday celebration.

[00:50:28] And so my friends all knew I was adopted, but it really just wasn't something that my friends really ever asked me about or talked about.

[00:50:36] And then to go to college and have friends that did ask me questions and that did want to learn more, I think was a really cool new experience.

[00:50:47] Yeah.

[00:50:48] Cool.

[00:50:49] Brilliant.

[00:50:51] So I just ask again, if there's anything else you want to share?

[00:50:56] We'll wrap up.

[00:50:58] No, but thank you so much for having me on and thank you so much for the work that you are doing.

[00:51:04] I just think it's so, so important, you know, to talk to different people and hear different people's stories.

[00:51:11] I definitely wish, you know, especially in the later part of high school going into a young adult that I would have been listening to a podcast like yours because I think it would have been so helpful.

[00:51:23] Yeah.

[00:51:24] Thank you, Molly.

[00:51:25] Thank you.

[00:51:26] That lands.

[00:51:27] Thank you.

[00:51:29] Thank you listeners too.

[00:51:30] And we'll speak to you again very soon.

[00:51:32] Take care.

[00:51:33] Bye-bye.

[00:51:34] Bye-bye.

[00:51:34] Bye.

[00:51:34] Bye-bye.

[00:51:34] Bye-bye.

[00:51:34] Thank you.