Finding Home With Simon Benn and Guest Host Jude Hung

[00:00:04] Hi everyone, welcome to Thriving Adoptees. This is the voice of Jude Hung and I am honored to be interviewing Simon Benn of Thriving Adoptees. I have been co-hosting a special series called Finding Home

[00:00:24] and it is all about Adoptees stories and experiences around home, the concept of home and finding home in the south. And I'm really honored to be interviewing the interviewer. Welcome Simon, onto your own show. Welcome to my own show. You're welcome.

[00:00:48] You tried to have more fun, right? The world of trauma is just so dark and... Oh, so heavy. Yeah, and it feels good to be moving into the light. So as with everyone else, I'm going to start with just that first springboard question.

[00:01:12] What does home mean to you? Okay, so I thought I'd go ultra-literal and then we'll go ultra metaphorical. I was thinking about my mum and dad bringing me home in February 1967. And the fact that since then I've only lived in, I think, five... I've lived in five houses.

[00:01:48] Yeah, I've only lived in five homes. I've only lived in five homes since then and they're all within about 20 minutes drive. And then I was also thinking, you know, apart from college and a bit of travelling.

[00:02:02] And then I was also thinking about my birth mother collecting me on kind of... I want to say, maybe the second of February 1967. Her collecting me from a short-term foster home. So she'd handed me to somebody at some point.

[00:02:27] And then I went into the short-term foster woman in Blackpool and then she had to come and get me and take me to the adoption council in Liverpool where my mum and dad collected me from. And apparently her mum was with her.

[00:02:49] And what that must have been like having to do it twice. Yeah, wow. That must have been really, really tough for her. That's intense. That's intense. And I've interviewed a few birth mothers on the show. One of whom has the same initials.

[00:03:20] And my birth mother was Patricia Joan Flower. And I interviewed a lady called Patricia Jane Florin as a birth mother. And like the same initials, same first name. Florin is a bit like flower. And you know, how many birth mothers?

[00:03:47] You know, their trauma is so much more conscious for them. Yes, because they were adults or young adults. Yeah. And I often think about... Because I know that 80% of the listeners to the show are women. And I think that's the kind of a stunning fact. I discovered that.

[00:04:22] I think about the maternal instinct and how... Like you're a mum of four, right? Yeah. I know maternal instincts can be stronger or weaker. But what can be stronger than... Sorry, I can't think of a better word to say. What can trump the maternal instinct?

[00:04:50] We don't like the word trump but there's not... Yeah, no. I think the only thing that may prompt the maternal instinct is the infant's instinct to survive. Because you know, the infant doesn't have the consciousness or the context, awareness that the mother has.

[00:05:11] The survival at that point, you know, when we're so fragile, I think that. But really they kind of mirror each other, that instinct and biology is very strong for both.

[00:05:25] And I think the conscious part of it having the awareness of that, the pain and what it's connected to, would be really rough to go through. I really do. As a kind of an aside, it's like 90 degree point.

[00:05:47] I went to see my somatic experiencing woman on Wednesday called Blanche. And she is not adoption competent. She has no knowledge of adoption but she is the only somatic woman that I could find within reasonable drive.

[00:06:05] So it takes me an hour and a half to get there and then an hour and a half back. But I was talking to her and trying to think of a way to sum it up, the trauma.

[00:06:22] And something came to me because as adoptees we're so keen for people to understand our trauma. How can they? And are we being unfair expecting them to understand our trauma? And are we getting unnecessarily wound up about the fact that they don't understand it?

[00:06:49] So I thought, what about in the moment an idea popped into my head which was why don't I try and get her to put, instead of asking her to put her feet in my shoes, why don't I create a scenario that is relevant to her?

[00:07:14] So I said that the scenario that I came up with in the moment, I said, well imagine if, because I know that she's got a partner, imagine if your partner left at breakfast time

[00:07:28] and that night you had to sleep with a new partner that you'd never met before. And she's like, oh yeah, I can't get it. There we go.

[00:07:49] And I was, this came up, I came up with it, shared that with the, we did a panel for advocates on Wednesday as well. And a strange parallel came up in terms of, I mean you've just moved into a new household relatively new.

[00:08:09] What you call realtor's, what we call estate agents. When they're checking whether they're checking the buyer's intentions, they'll say, can you imagine yourself living in this house? That's what they do in the UK. They'll often use that line. Can you imagine yourself living in this house?

[00:08:30] They are showing, they are showing the potential buyer and they're trying to see if the buyer sees it. Right? They don't say, do you think you buy this house? Or do you think they try to get inside the buyer's head. Yeah.

[00:08:52] And I'm trying to sow a seed in Blanche's head about what it would feel like for her. So does she get this as an experience, not as a concept? Yeah. So she gets it in, she has a lived experience of it.

[00:09:15] She, oh, wow, I would not find it. You've got to sleep with somebody. Right. Yeah, she can feel it physically in her body, somatically. And she understands that because that's the pull that she swims in.

[00:09:28] You know, it's interesting. I have the same experience, but one time my mom had to hand me over to my uncle. She couldn't hand me over to my parents. They weren't supposed to see each other, but to my uncle, so a stranger at the hospital. Yeah.

[00:09:49] I imagine that was really difficult. So you said you were going to start with what home means to you, like literally. And that being brought home. Do you have any more thoughts around that that you want to share with us?

[00:10:06] Just that I haven't strayed far from home. I haven't strayed far. No, you haven't. You haven't strayed far and what did home feel like for you as a child? It felt like home. I didn't know any different.

[00:10:34] Though we were burgled. Do you say burgularized you or something? American saying? Robbed, yeah. So you were burgled? We were burgled. Our house was burgled, right? Why were we away on holiday?

[00:10:50] We were away for a weekend. I don't know what it was, but we were burgled and they took televisions and clothes and television probably. We were probably one in those days. But I remember that being a bit scary. Being a bit scared at home after that.

[00:11:10] How old were you? About? We got burgled. Seven, nine. So like do you think before that did you feel like more safe at home? Like home felt like a safe place? Yeah, yeah. I think overall home was a safe place.

[00:11:31] But that wasn't it. For a while it was a little, there was a bit of fear maybe going upstairs on my own or something.

[00:11:42] Yeah, yeah. Now what do you, what does home mean to you now? You're an adult, you have your own home, but what is the concept? We've been in it 27 years.

[00:11:57] And we had it converted so it's an old coach house. So it's the coach house to a manor house. So the manor house is next door. It's huge. It has five bedrooms on the first floor and three on the second.

[00:12:16] Three in the attic for the servants, right? That they would have when the house was built in 1890. And we live in the little coach house next to it, which was where the horses that pulled the guys coach lived and then became the garage.

[00:12:37] They had their own, it's got it had its own petrol tank. So there's a mounting block where like whether the horse guy would bring would bring the horse round for the guy that lived in the big house to get on to.

[00:12:54] But there was also back in the day, but there's also a petrol tank, you know, and a petrol pump for when they transferred.

[00:13:03] So we spent a lot of time and a lot of a lot of time and a lot of money turning it from what had been a stable block basically. So walk into into a great place. So, okay, so take that experience of reconstructing a home.

[00:13:27] And how can you or does it not connect to how you have had to reconstruct within yourself and create home within yourself for because of the adoption and relinquishment mother separation drama is really what I like to call it. I don't think I'd say it's a reconstruction.

[00:13:56] I would say it's a deconstruction. But then you have to build right? Yeah, if it was a house, but but I'm not house. So I would say it's been a deconstruction is being a removal. It's been a removal of the stuff that isn't me to reveal me.

[00:14:31] And that's what the diamond is about, but it's not just about me. It's about everybody. Everybody is dying and the thriving adoptee logo is a diamond. It wasn't a diamond. I had a different logo before, but I started doing that. They stick with the with the fest.

[00:14:59] Yeah, yeah. And and Simon and I are on the same page with that metaphor with the diamond with our I called our essence with our soul whatever that that which is a sign like say unwindable. And yeah, I do it.

[00:15:21] Shall I do it in case people because we're going to probably use this video on. Yeah, do it. Show us what it is. So let me so for those listening, I'm there's a whole of my clenched fist up to the camera.

[00:15:39] The clench fist is a nine metaphor for trauma and one of which the feelings of trauma as it manifested for me when I came out to the fog was anger.

[00:15:53] So anger, clenched fist going to do some damage right not not great on the inside not great on the outside. So, but that clenched fist it's not the natural position for the hand.

[00:16:11] So as I as I unfurl my fingers to make my flat and my house my hand flat, which is the natural way would be. It reveals a diamond and underneath that so the diamond is the metaphor for us. We are worth loads, right?

[00:16:39] Yeah, worth loads and our worth, our self esteem our self worth our essence all those things are hidden by the by the trauma that's in the fist. So is the diamond the diamond is. We are the diamond.

[00:17:03] So I would say home is the body we live in and our experience here on earth right like, and it can also be a state of being peace.

[00:17:13] Bliss, you worry up or it can be more in those lower states and so for me, connecting to the states of being of the diamond is creating home for myself. I agree with that.

[00:17:32] Yeah, yeah, and I feel like you are doing that work like you are creating a life that you enjoy. You know, hey, you're going to Greece next week. Yeah. So I don't think we, I don't think we create who we are we reveal who we are. Okay, agree.

[00:17:55] We are who we are right like and we reveal who we are. And we can I'm from that place where more like to create a life that is more in line with that. We know it's not Greece every it's not Greece every week.

[00:18:17] But yes, we can because I come from a place where we can enjoy every moment and there are some moments may we don't enjoy as much but I think it is about alignment and resonance with who we are and coming in coming into that and consciously building that for ourselves those connections.

[00:18:40] So you said that the word self is like knowing our self. But our self is the diamond, not as not as the ego or the separate self or the trauma or the feelings or the. Do you miss or the stories. Yeah, exactly.

[00:19:03] Yeah, when I'm saying self I'm thinking the capital. Yeah, right. Not the trauma bound narrative. So not the trial band. No. So you said that you used to have a different logo and you switch to the diamond. Can you share that story.

[00:19:24] Yeah, I was doing the diamond thing a lot and I thought this arrow that I've got doesn't doesn't say enough. It was it was like what can I do thriving adoptees okay onwards and upwards. That was the kind of the idea.

[00:19:42] And as much as that you know okay bang it out that's it done move on with the move on with the thing but then you know I was doing the diamond all the time and I thought well.

[00:19:52] What what is the what is the essential issue that we face as adoptees and it's that we don't think that we're worth enough. And what's the what's the flip of that the diamond.

[00:20:07] Okay, I don't know do that in why don't I use that as the logo because it means it's got a backstory. It's got a back yeah and it's got an entry.

[00:20:20] It's got a bit of entry to put to and if I talked about it, you know people might start to see that themselves. Right, make the connection within themselves.

[00:20:34] So you chair a moment at least you have with me, and I think others about a teddy bear and I think that that was a really significant moment of shifting for you. And I'm curious was that before can you share it again.

[00:20:52] Was that before after you're doing the podcast I'm not sure where it is in your timeline. Okay, so I'm 56. No, 67 now I'm 57. 67 is 24 and it 24 14 minus seven is seven. Okay, 67 I was one year I'm 57.

[00:21:14] Um, so when I was 40. I found out that teddy bear that had had from birth was from birth or for as long as I can remember was from my birth mother and I didn't know that it's from a birth mother.

[00:21:27] And after that came some very brief moment of anger towards her. When I saw that teddy bear was a sort of teddy bear is a consolation prize for my woman that didn't love me enough to keep me. And I never had that thought before I was 40. Never.

[00:21:51] And eight years later, I think maybe eight years later seven years later. I got my adoption file and in there was a letter from my birth mother to the social worker.

[00:22:10] And thanking her for a help on Friday so that was the Friday that had picked me up from black pool from the short term foster care woman driven me to Liverpool, my mum and dad have come across. And that's when I was placed, as they say.

[00:22:33] And so she, the she thanks the social worker for the help on the Friday. And then she says that she wanted to for to get a little thing something for David, i.e. me. That's what she called David Anthony flower.

[00:22:52] And she wanted to get something for me on the way to the adoption council agency. But she couldn't do so because the traffic was bad and would, would if would my parents accept a teddy bear for me from her. And, and as the tears round down my face.

[00:23:20] I realized that 20 seconds of anger and 40 seconds 2040 seconds of fear of her rejecting me, which had happened in another instant incident. I thought so that was all wrong. And the teddy bear was not a consolation prize or an effing consolation prize.

[00:23:45] It was a symbol of her love for me. Yeah. Okay, so I might maybe go where many wouldn't dare to go. Being able to connect with that. The bear the symbol of love for you. Did that shift any of your feelings around being abandoned.

[00:24:19] Well, I didn't feel a perception of abandonment. I felt unloved by her. And I felt unlovable in some regards I had had glimpses of the diamond on the back of work that I'd done between the ages of 40 and ages of 48 or whatever it is when I found out.

[00:24:58] I had glimpses of it, but it kind of solidified me. Solidified my self esteem made it a bit like my grounding stronger. Yeah, foundations. And it also the deeper part of what happened for me as the tears run down my face is that I felt connected to her.

[00:25:37] I felt one with her. There was no separation between me and her. The trauma had kept us apart in my head. Yeah, yeah. And I was connected with her and now I see it as me being connected with everybody.

[00:25:59] So we talk about this idea that we're not human beings having a spiritual experience. We're one one spiritual being having whatever it is. 8 billion human experience. Yeah.

[00:26:17] So it's about a felt sense of oneness and I have felt that since in rugby stadiums listening to the National Anthems in rock concerts listening to Mr Brightside by the killers in with the somatic experiencing woman talking with you talking with other fellow adoptees,

[00:26:44] especially towards the end of some conversations we kind of drop into that space of oneness. You know, you're nine inches away from your picture of me. You're sorry my the picture of you on the screen is nine, nine inches away from me and you're 3000 miles away from me.

[00:27:08] And yet we're we're one. We're in a sort of we're in the healing space of home. That's that's her and that's met that's the metaphor. That's what I think home is. It's that that place that's a space. That's a connection that's love that's energy that's vibration.

[00:27:36] That's 500 on the David Hawkins scale of human consciousness from those thousand or whatever it is, you know. Yeah. Yeah, and I agree. You know, so for me the finding home is both and it's finding home itself.

[00:27:57] I think that's the now which comes first and maybe doesn't matter which comes first for me the knowing of the oneness came first before finding home with them myself in my journey.

[00:28:13] And so in the home, the the oh, I put the own symbol to represent that state of being that oneness that we all are where we come from. Yeah, that's what you see. That's what you talked about with Evan Alexander. That's what when you interviewed interviewed him. Yeah.

[00:28:36] Yeah. So I, I, I think you and I we have found that that we have similar. We've come to similar conclusions in our journeys around the oneness that we all are and it's beautiful and we have those moments of touching it and experiencing it.

[00:29:02] What do you think stops us from and I'm at the us on meaning are adopt the community from experiencing that and it's kind of staying in that that replay of the trauma narrative. What stops us seeing home and our diamond. Mm hmm. Yes. Human condition.

[00:29:43] Human condition. Yeah, trauma. You know, you recently said that trauma is the wall. Right. That keeps us from connecting.

[00:29:57] And, you know, you just describe that in your story with your bio mode, right and that kind of crumbled away and fell away and you were able to through that and sense, since that time.

[00:30:12] And you know, you just feel the connectedness of your mom and all things right. What and I know your work my work is around supporting the doffies in seeing beyond the narrative, right and and hopefully making these connections and move toward wholeness.

[00:30:38] What do you think is stopping us from seeing right because these stories, at least for me, I came out the fog in 2019 these stories were on repeat right until I was like 50.

[00:30:56] So what stops us seeing our diamond from from yeah, yeah, from seeing our diamonds like or more from from getting beyond the narrative right like what's stopping us. What do you think you have interviewed how many adoptees. I would.

[00:31:14] Well, I've entered 470 people I think so yeah in the early days there were quite a few adoptive parents. Now it's all adoptees and I know and and I've spoken to I've done yeah. I've spoken to pretty much everybody twice right and doing.

[00:31:34] So I guess my question like yeah so in interviewing them right in interviewing us. I don't want to ask them in interviewing us and all these interviews.

[00:31:45] Has there been some common threads I know in my work I have seen some guideposts moments, some really key moments that seem to be part of the map toward wholeness how like.

[00:31:58] But if you could name something from all the research that you've done through these interviews that is hindering. Is there something that stands out I guess is what I'm asking. Yeah, we we identify with something else. We don't identify with the diamond.

[00:32:23] So we might identify with our trauma. We might identify by what happened to us. We were adopted we might identify. By. I don't know what to do other people. I would say it's the trauma bound identity to use your word the trauma about believing that we are.

[00:32:58] Yeah, we get bound up in it yeah in that identifying with our trauma. Yeah, and what so I think.

[00:33:09] What stop so the biggest thing that I saw last week, not last week, the biggest thing I saw last year I think was that we can look at healing on two levels. So first level psychology.

[00:33:28] Right so I believe that I believe that pretty much everybody that comes on the show that I ask about healing what they say healing is a process. Healing is a verb. And it will be happening forever. And I believe that psychological healing. I believe that they're correct.

[00:33:51] And I also believe that most of the time they're talking about psychological healing so they're looking at healing from a psychological perspective rather than an essential, essential perspective. So our essence, our wholeness, our spirit, our consciousness, our diamond.

[00:34:18] So I would say that, you know, Nancy said that I said this quite a lot of money and Nancy very says describes the primal wound and says it's it's psychological it's spiritual it's all these different things.

[00:34:34] And, and then she wrote a follow up book about coming home to self, which seems to be from my recollection, wholly psychological. So she's got a narrow and that's that that's what we think that's what we pick up on that that's the that that's the narrative that yeah.

[00:35:02] That trauma is a psychological thing, and it is psychological thing. And it, but we are not our psychology. So what's what's happening is that we're identifying with our psychology, we're identifying with our trauma.

[00:35:29] We're identifying with a gazillion things right and we are not identifying with our essence with the truth, with the truth, with the diamond, with the consciousness, with the awareness, with the spirit.

[00:35:48] Right. Yeah. And then to like, thankfully, in the last decade there has been much more understanding around trauma and trauma research and so there are, we are starting to see beyond just psychology right like various

[00:36:04] semantics and EMDR and EFT and I had I leaned heavily into EFT I was doing somatic system massage therapist. And so I those other modalities have been very supportive in me getting to a place where I can say I'm home.

[00:36:25] Right and and I'm moving differently in the world and in my life because of that. I'm really thankful for the gross, gross that are out there the growth in the in understanding and what is available to us as far as support in our resolving the trauma.

[00:36:49] So right like moving beyond it. So I'm speaking to a lot of people about internal family systems right at the moment so Kathy McKeknee who's been on the show she's an IFS she's an adoptee she's an IFS practitioner. I mean that Trish Deutsch interviewed her yesterday she is.

[00:37:14] She's an adoptee. She was introduced to me by a another adoptee who's an IFS therapist whose name escapes me at the moment suggested that Trish gets in touch with essentially IFS for me. It brings together the uppercase S self spirit stuff with the psychology of our parts.

[00:37:43] So that's been around for 30 years. IFS has been around for 30 years.

[00:37:49] But people don't you know it's not yeah people don't know about it is still yeah it's still it's still it's still emerging but it is a it is a methodology that brings in spirit and psychotic non religious spiritual stuff and psychology and that that's a game changer.

[00:38:18] And yeah and I found I was doing part work that work naturally without knowing what parts work was for a long time I think you were to for knowing it and I want to swing back toward something that I hear often within the community.

[00:38:37] And I think that's what I think when I'm facilitating our hosting groups is that thought that like we will never get to the other side like we're never going to heal this is an ongoing forever process and and I guess I would just like to offer that I think

[00:38:56] we're in a place where it's resolved and we are very much identifying with our capital S self and wholeness the diamond and we will continue to grow and evolve. The right that's that's the way of nature is to continue to grow and evolve expand.

[00:39:17] Right yet I think within the trauma narrative and story we can get to a place where it is resolved. And we're really identifying with our nature.

[00:39:30] Yeah, I mean we're shifting we're shifting aren't we like you and me with with where check some people don't like the healing word right yeah and especially people that have had stuff come out of religious experiences to spoke to

[00:39:51] or they've done a lot of work and it's like, you know, they don't feel like they've gotten very far or right like it's like oh this is just a forever job. Right like I think yeah, it's like because healing if it's a physical wound.

[00:40:09] It does heal you may have a scar right like you might not be fully the same as you were prior, but there's an end to the process. Physically speaking, right and so I think that's why people don't like healing in terms of this internal work.

[00:40:30] Yeah, the uppercase as south is not hurt, harmed, damaged, wounded, touched, changed. Right, nothing touches it. Nothing touches it is who we are is untouchable, not the film the untouchables right untouched.

[00:41:07] Yeah, right and just know that we're going to live a life of growth and transformation like that's that's part of the way all of nature right.

[00:41:20] All of nature is growing and transforming continuously unfolding so that's part of living and existing right like so that's going to continue but we can resolve this narrative and move beyond it. Yeah. One of the key steps for me.

[00:41:47] After coming out of the Fox 17 years ago, I'd say I said there's two big fog lift moments for me to be coming out of the fuck for me. But the first one when was the anger to a number of us mother.

[00:42:04] A while after that probably six months or a year so after that. I spent a week with eight people with you know into two facilities and six of us on the course, and we spent the week basically sharing our stories and then decide and disidentifying from our stories.

[00:42:28] Disidentifying from our internal narrative, seeing that the internal narrator the voice in our head is a liar. That sort of stuff. But I summed it up there in 10 seconds maybe we spent five days on it from nine o'clock in the morning till six o'clock at night.

[00:42:52] So we went really deep on this and there was a mass. It seems to be part of the process separating who we are from our story. That's, you know, that's huge. That's huge. Okay.

[00:43:20] Thank you for that. It's it is it's huge and I think for in my experience once that shift happened, big change has just been big and constant. Continue to change. There's there was two processes though that went on right. We shared our story.

[00:43:42] And we separated from our story. Yes. It's important to share it. If you just share your story, that's that's great because we've been locked away. We've been lonely. We go into company. We share our story right? That's brilliant.

[00:43:59] Okay. And what really worked for me and what further people is separating who we are from the story. So you got it like yeah.

[00:44:08] Yeah. Thank you for the clarity on those two parts and they're both really important because in the sharing the story, I think our infant who couldn't speak needs a voice like it that it does need to be expressed and release from within us.

[00:44:24] And I think that's why support groups within our community are an important step for a season because there's validation and affirmation of the experience which I think we really needed. And for me, that's part of the healing.

[00:44:47] And yet you also need somebody that's able to hold you in your wholeness and and see you there and affirm that and validate that as well to kind of help you transition like that's it's really important to be seen in your wholeness.

[00:45:05] You need somebody to listen to your story and then point out in a way that you see that you are not your story. Exactly.

[00:45:21] So it's not what they say to us. It's what we hear. It's not what they point out is what we see. It's insights are an inside job. Yeah. Yeah. What I guess what caused you or what drove you to begin doing the podcast writing adoptees.

[00:45:51] I enjoyed guessing on it and a mentor told me it was time to start my own. Okay. And I said no. Yes. And I said no. And she did. And she had recommended a podcast trainer.

[00:46:13] I'd spent, you know, like a couple of hundred pounds with him and gone on his podcast course and he made podcasting sound like it was too much thratch and too much effort.

[00:46:25] So when she said to me and she'd introduced me this mentor had introduced me to the podcast trainer. And I said, well, you told me that you recommended the guy the podcast trainer. He made sound really, he made it sound really difficult. And so I can't do it.

[00:46:42] She says no, it's really simple. It's really simple. Simple sign. Right. You need simple cast in terms of technology you need simple cast, which is what we're using 1618 dollars a month or something like that. And you need Canva. Like to create your little graphics.

[00:47:05] She probably got a Facebook account already. And obviously you need guests. Right. So yeah. Those three things on zoom. Sorry. Yeah. And here you are. And here we are.

[00:47:24] What, you know, in all of these interviews, like if there was one wisdom jam that you like, or maybe a really powerful moment that you would want to share and say this, this, you know, the voice in your head that says that you can't heal is a liar.

[00:47:52] There you go. That's a truth bomb right there. I like it. Okay, so where are you at now with because now you're starting to branch into other things. Where are you at now? With that drive. You know, to help you. I think that's a good thing.

[00:48:14] Because now you're starting to branch into other things. Where are you at now? With that drive, you know, to help adoptees like what are you wanting to see in the community? What are you hoping to see in the community? No leaders. More leaders. More healing. Healing or advocacy.

[00:48:47] More. Oh, somebody. That's Cyrus, who came on. I know it wasn't. Yeah, she came on the panel. She said that I was a cohesive force in adoptee space or something like that. I thought I'd see more cohesion because I'd like to see more cohesion.

[00:49:18] Most definitely you are a cohesive force and I would love to see more of that as well.

[00:49:27] You know, we've had enough of, I think, being separate in life and define that and to be able to offer that to our community like really if we want to advance any change in advocacy, in loss and in our own personal healing, it's going to take that.

[00:49:56] So a fellow podcast host, Damon Davis, who also came on the panel with Beth on Wednesday, he called me out on this advocacy stuff. And so I was saying, what's the point of trying to talk to people outside of the adoption community?

[00:50:20] And he had a, I can't remember exactly what you said but I realised that my belief was off on this. My perspective was off. I'm quite chuffed to be able to say that now because I was just thinking the last 10 minutes was a bit self-indulging.

[00:50:38] So I'm putting my hand up for making a mistake. So that's why I started doing the advocacy panels, like bringing together. So what can I do? Right? What can I do? I've got some reach more than some, less than others. I've got, so what can I do?

[00:51:00] I thought, well, I'll do the advocacy panels and I'll bring in people and I'll interview them. Well, I won't interview them. I'll ask the people coming to the advocacy events and the questions that they would like to ask the panel.

[00:51:17] And I thought, well, that's, that was the idea that came off the back of me saying that not doing the advocacy stuff was an error on my part. Would you say that this is a labor of love for you? Like this is a passion project? Yes.

[00:51:47] I know that it is, but just the fact like, and I get emotional so I'm going to go with it, but just the fact that you would publicly admit you were wrong.

[00:52:02] And I know you behind the scenes a bit and I know that you are so willing to pivot and to hear other people's ideas because there's something very genuine driving you to do what you're doing right now. So thank you. I'm saying thank you for all that.

[00:52:23] Thank you. Okay, I have to pause the second one. So yeah, I talked about the, you know, the two levels. And I want to credit, I can't remember a surname.

[00:52:40] Teresa came on the show. So I was thinking last year I was talking about psychology and psychology and that's right, two levels of healing. Talking to Teresa.

[00:52:53] She just said, we were talking about healing and stuff. She said no there's five right so there's psychology, emotions, biology, relational, relational and spiritual. So, yeah. So this we're looking at five, five areas of healing or five areas of growth.

[00:53:23] Yes, I thought spiritual energetic. I'm just going to enter. Okay, yeah, so spiritual and energetic kind of you can do biological in terms of biology, biology, somatics. Yes. I guess you could probably do physiology, could you that maybe? Yeah.

[00:53:40] Physical. So what I think has happened is that we've got kind of, we've taken this view that growth or healing, whichever you prefer, is about psychology and we've not integrated all five areas. And that, yeah, that's the thing. So that's why I'm doing the somatic work, right? Yeah.

[00:54:09] And that's why I'm doing it on their more likely emotional side. I'm doing some work with Pam Karenova. She's creating a grief recovery method. So I'm exploring that myself. And yeah, the wrongness thing that you just said about being willing to be wrong.

[00:54:34] That is, that's an even better one liner I think about what would I, right? So when I read that, when I read the letter from my birth mother, I realized that I was wrong. My view was incorrect.

[00:54:54] My belief wasn't true. And that I think has probably kind of turned up my humility and openness. So the podcast that released today with the interview with their Trish Deutsch, it's called Curious and Willing. Right? So we should obviously kind of sit with open. I saw that.

[00:55:30] Yeah. Yeah. Curious and willing, right? Rather than setting our ways. So what do we see? What do we see? We see what stops us healing? Like being entrenched in our beliefs. Yeah, fighting for our story. Fighting for our story. Yeah.

[00:55:48] I had a big moment couple of months ago when I realized how much reading all this, all these posts fighting how they landed on me in a moment. And it felt really heavy on my shoulders. And we are unwittingly, unintentionally, unknowingly retraumatizing ourselves.

[00:56:24] Yes. Yes, we are. And we're living in the past. Right. That moment happened for me in 1968 for you in 1967. And we have that, but it's wired in our body, right? And it's on replay. And so every time I allow that to replay, I'm actually living in the past.

[00:56:51] I'm not in the moment and my perceptions are not going to be clear. I have trauma glasses on. I'm seeing through the lens of this very old event. You know, yeah. And so I think the willingness to be wrong.

[00:57:08] What was that thing that you saw that thing I put yesterday about empowerment? And yeah, like empowerment is time to change our view of past events. Yeah. Choose a different, we can choose a different way of looking at past events. Right. Yeah. And we'll stay still.

[00:57:36] Or degrees off. Yeah, degrees off. I wanted to, that's interesting. I was listening to a podcast this morning and it was a shrinky positive psychology sports kind of psychology. And it struck me. Yeah, it struck me how much black and white there was.

[00:58:08] This is the right way. That is the wrong one. And I just fell into it. I did the same thing myself then, right? So it's degrees off. Yeah. It's not saying, well, am I open or am I close? No, it's degrees of openness.

[00:58:27] It's not. No, I'm closed. Oh yeah. Yeah. No, I'm open. I'm definitely. It's not a yes or a no. It's not a black or a white. It's not a zero or a one. And it's degrees off and to make it.

[00:58:45] Well, in the sometimes. Yes or no is fatuous. I think sometimes it's both and and I'll share what I mean by that. So I've come to a place where I am really identified with my home is and and I like to say that.

[00:59:09] I also grew up believing and living in this other narrative. Right. That was my reality. That is what I experienced so I can come to my wholeness. I can now say that my mother's intention was not to abandon me. The meaning I gave it was abandonment rejection.

[00:59:36] I was unlovely all these things because we're the meaning makers and the writers of our story. And our stories are based on this influence experience. It had no context like we couldn't put that into context.

[00:59:53] The things that happened to me in my home as a child or from a child's narrow perspective, right? And then you become an adult and a parent and you begin to see it different. Right. So it just it's both I carry both of these within me.

[01:00:13] Both of these stories. Right. But once resolved now and I'm at peace in my infants of peace, it doesn't change that that was the truth that I grew up with. And it was really painful. It was.

[01:00:28] Yeah. And now I'm here and we can be whole and still have bad days. Yes, we can. We can be whole and still be treated. Yes, we can. And we are.

[01:00:43] The difference will be is that you will begin to change how you respond when your nervous system is activated. You'll begin to have better self care in place for when you're dysregulated and it will become more and more diminished over time. And it has. And it has.

[01:01:09] And it has and I'm amazed at what's shifting like within my relationships or my relationship, mainly with myself. Right. Because now doing this inner journey and connecting to myself. Right. With my diamond.

[01:01:28] It's changed my relationship with myself and I built a rapport trust with myself that's caused me to have more confidence that I've got my own back. Right. I'm not banning myself anymore. So yeah, it's been a long journey home. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:01:53] But you just need to click your heels. I know the power was with me all along. So and it's within you and you all people listening. It's there. We're talking about the wizard of us listeners. So was there a buzz reference. And this is Jude, right?

[01:02:15] And she had a different name. Right. Similar name to the same name as the star. Yeah, Judy Garland. Judy. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, you know, part of me finding home too. That was one of the weird little moments for me, the name thing. Right.

[01:02:37] So we talked about identity and. Yeah. Identity diamond. Identity spirit. That's it. Yeah. That is that. That's the identity problem. Solved. So, yeah, I think people have to have an experiential moment. Yes, they do. Yeah.

[01:03:02] You know, but I was going to tell you earlier and I held back because I didn't want to seem like callous. But I was going to say that you're, you lucked out with the name because David Anthony Flowers would make you daft. Yeah.

[01:03:24] Which would only be funny to a bright, right? Daft. Yeah. Daft. Right. So, yeah, there's the identity thing when I got their piece of paper. So I was expecting to get a piece of paper with my birth mother's name on it.

[01:03:40] And it also had my first name on it, David Anthony Flower. And I thought, hmm, that's weird. I've had two names. Yeah. And then somebody, I heard something later that year or when it later that month, whatever it was who we are never changes. Right?

[01:04:01] Who we are is the truth is always the truth. Right. So anything that changes like our mood. Right. And it's like, like our names. Am I? Yeah. Well, I was David Anthony Flower. When did I become Simon John? Like, you know, well, which one's right?

[01:04:21] And then we disappear down the trauma and perturbation. Is it? We travel down the question, which we go down the slippery slope where we're questioning more and we want answers and then we get frustrated because we haven't got answers. Yeah. And the identity problems is clear as well.

[01:04:49] Okay. We're with the diamond, with the consciousness, with the spirit, with the wholeness, with that's what's good about uppercase itself actually. The uppercase itself, the VFS makes it not woo-woo nothing to do with Simon and his silly metaphors or, you know, like that's it. Uppercase itself.

[01:05:09] That's who we are. Not our ego, not our trauma, our uppercase S self. Who we truly are. Yeah. Most definitely. Most definitely. And I think. And all those people getting confused about identity, like, and all that time we spent getting accused about identity. And it was so simple.

[01:05:34] And I think that's why the power is with you all along, my dear. The something that you hit on just now. And I think sometimes people stumble around is we're not our thoughts. We're not our feelings. You know, we're not even these physical bodies.

[01:05:57] These are the, our homes while we are here on this planet living this experience right now. And, you know, that self, that diamond piece is our true identity. And, you know, we are sensory beings. So we are discerning this reality through our body through our emotions.

[01:06:25] And so having that understanding of separation that they're not actually who we are. It's that's our kind of messaging system. And we're not just, you know, that's, that's information that's coming through for us to filter and discern. And we filter it based on as Dr. Paul Sunderland says,

[01:06:44] experience is the architect of the brain. And so our first experience is what we're filtering all of life through. And, and yet that's a faulty experience to build like a mom. Yes. And that's trauma education. What we do in his growth education and healing education.

[01:07:05] And so he loves that Paul Sunderland video. I like, well, where's no, I don't get it. If you want to, if, if listeners, if we're, if Jude and I are making this clear, do, do just do one thing by no bad parts

[01:07:25] by Dick Schwartz and, and that book will make it clear or, or Google him on, or search for me on a podcast and listen to him. If you don't want to invest in the $10, whatever it is before you, before you, before you, that guy can point very accurately.

[01:07:52] I think. I don't know when we started. So I think we're about there. All right. So I'm going to sum up your takeaway messages and it would be, be willing to be wrong. And know that you are a diamond and not the trauma bound narrative. Indeed.

[01:08:33] Do you want to select the listeners? Do you want me to do that? I guess I should do it. Yeah. Through the interviewee. Thank you, Simon first, you know, for just availing yourself to let me the novice interview you.

[01:08:54] Trust me, I have felt quite the novice doing these, but it's been, it's been a real honor and a joy. And thank you listeners for tuning in and hearing this interview with Simon and myself. Thank you very much. Thank you, Jude.

[01:09:11] And your novice is not shown at all. And remember your diamond. Yeah. Remember your diamond? Did you have wumbles in the U. U. S. We have what it was. There was a kids program in this in the UK and that they were called the wumbles.

[01:09:31] The wumbles of Wimbledon common. And that one of their big hits was remember you're a wumble. So if you're feeling in a 70s mood, then put that into YouTube. Remember you're a wumble, but instead of the word wumble, insert the word diamond. Okay. Speak to you.

[01:09:57] Thank you everybody. Yeah.