Finding Home With Sloane Walker and Guest Co-Host Jude Hung

[00:00:01] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined once again by co-host, great co-host Jude Hunt and Sloane Walker. Welcome to the show. Looking forward to it.

[00:00:16] Thank you Simon. Welcome Sloane. So Sloane for me, and she may not even realize it is a very special person because when I first came out of fog in 2019, she's one of the first adoptees that I met.

[00:00:34] And I was just learning about the trauma aspects. So even though as a massage therapist, I had studied trauma. It's really different when you're coming face to face with your own.

[00:00:46] And there was a lot coming up, a lot of grief. And we met in a group and started talking. And I can't even remember who reached out to who, but we just connected on a lot of levels, even outside of adoption.

[00:01:01] And I've had some similar things that we did as children is finding solace in song and singing. And, you know, and even just interest in design Sloane is in spirituality. She's a high priestess.

[00:01:18] And she is a certified whole person coach. I'm sure I'm saying everything correctly. And she's an interior decorator, which is something I had studied designing in college for the couple years that I went.

[00:01:32] And so we did. We had all this stuff in common and where we were, you know, and then the adoption stuff. And, and so that's why when I thought about doing this series, she came to mind, because we've kind of been walking this path toward home and wholeness and healing together for these five years.

[00:01:56] And so my first question, welcome. Welcome. Thanks for coming on. But my first question is, what does home mean to you? That's a really good question.

[00:02:15] Home is really where we can go to kind of escape, you know, the world. You know, it's our refuge and our safe space. And it is, to me, it's sacred. It's part of, it's an extension of ourselves.

[00:02:36] And so when we're in our home, and it should reflect, you know, who we are. And it should be a place where we feel entirely ourselves. And, you know, that the outside world is not intruding.

[00:02:52] I think it's, it's a lot of it's about that body mind spirit connection, you know, it's, it's like, you know, part of our alignment.

[00:03:05] And when we're in alignment with ourselves, then, you know, our home is kind of a reflection of how we, how we move through the world. It gives us a place of refuge, a place to, to rest and to recover from, you know, that the day, you know, of exposure that we've had out in the real world.

[00:03:25] And then we get home and, you know, hopefully, you know, we live in a world in an environment where, you know, this is, this is where we go to get away.

[00:03:37] But I don't, I don't know that most people's houses reflect that but I think, you know, for me, that's the ideal that you, you know, your home is, is, is a reflection of what's important to you. So, hope I didn't ramble too much.

[00:03:57] Beautiful. Perfect. Now, how has your childhood experience of home influence these thoughts, right? Like, so for the adoptee, we have this, we grow up in a family that is not our biological family.

[00:04:15] And so that often I think influences how we feel about home and what we decide to create for ourselves as adults. I spent a lot of time outside. And if I wasn't outside, I was usually in my room because that was my space.

[00:04:35] And I could do, I had some autonomy with my room when I was young. And I've always had my own bedroom, which was nice because my girls had to share growing up but something about like my house.

[00:04:50] I had a really nice childhood home. I mean, it was a place that was very almost enchanting. We used to call it Santa's workshop. It was a red, red Cape Cod Colonial with white shutters and it was very charming and it was very quaint.

[00:05:07] And it was surrounded by nature. And so I played a lot. I was a latchkey kid. So I was home alone a lot too.

[00:05:17] So when I wasn't, you know, outside, I was kind of, you know, a feral wild child, you know, kind of just doing my own thing. I would say though that that shifted for me as I got older, my parents divorced when I was 14.

[00:05:36] And we had moved to Virginia at that point and I didn't feel very at home in that world. It just was so different to me from upstate New York.

[00:05:47] And then when I moved to Colorado, I really almost became relegated to a guest in my own home like I had a lot of time alone in that house but it was very clear that that was not my space.

[00:06:00] It was, I was visiting. And so it, I felt very uncomfortable there like I didn't feel like it belonged to me. I spent a lot of time still outside and with my friends, I spent a lot of time at my friend's house was on the weekends.

[00:06:17] And so I don't, I don't, I didn't really get to do anything to make it my own. I didn't have posters on the walls. It's very, it was a very, you know, kind of stark and austere kind of a space, you know, my room was just a place that I slept at night.

[00:06:33] And so, as I became an adult.

[00:06:38] I had to rent, because we were poor and I had, you know, small children and we just it was chaos for a long time. And just trying to keep track of, you know, their, you know, things and kids, you know, kids can be real little kind of messy kind of

[00:06:57] crazy at times. And so I didn't really feel like I had that control over that either. And so now I'm a homeowner, and my house is 100% my oasis like I have, I have spent a lot of time making it into my sacred space and the place and honestly I

[00:07:18] never want to leave. Like I don't like going out if I don't have to because it's such a wonderful place to be and when people walk in the door they just go, Oh wow, you know, they just the reaction they have is just kind of like, you know, it's unexpected because

[00:07:32] they're so used to walking into people's homes and, you know, they have white kitchens and they have beige walls and they have, you know, and they walk into mine and they see prayer flags and they see goddess statues and they see, you know, murals on the

[00:07:47] street and just like, Oh okay, you know, this is really different but it usually is very they have a very positive kind of experience of it and want to stay there like oh this is this is great I love this. So it's it's shifted a lot for me over the years and I

[00:08:05] think I'm finally able to make my space what I want it to be. You mentioned earlier that home and you know is an extension and a reflection of our insights are about our inner world right our outer world is the mirror of our inner

[00:08:27] world. And, you know, as I was listening to you and you're talking about to kind of the transition between your early childhood homes and the different experiences of even living in a home where you didn't feel it was home like you were this kind of relegated to guest.

[00:08:44] I can imagine that that didn't feel very safer or welcoming. And so, you know, I feel the importance to you of your space now. And I think that that influenced you in creating your pencilful program.

[00:09:04] Right and and do we share a little bit about that like what that's about and really even Azure sharing maybe share some of your own journey with that.

[00:09:18] And I hope I'm asking it the right way because I know for me it's the same like I have this this one room and this is my kind of sacred space in this house and it is mine like and it looks like me and you can't see all my things.

[00:09:33] But it has been really important to me as well to have that kind of space so will you share about that process and and, you know, because if the work chaotic inside. It usually shows up outside. So, yeah, I'd love to hear more. Okay.

[00:09:50] Um, you know, I really I try to draw one I want to keep it simple for people, you know, because it's, it's, it's a process.

[00:10:00] And it's about kind of becoming and where you start is with self awareness, you know, where am I at in this moment, you know how am I feeling. What's going on in my life, you know, what are the factors that are that are influencing my state of mind and my state of being.

[00:10:18] And, you know, I kind of look at it is, you know, most people are kind of somewhere on a spectrum. You know, on one end of the spectrum there.

[00:10:26] There's complete chaos and they are just scattered, you know, and there's no, you know, there's no organization. There's no, you know, sense of, you know, stability or safety or really feeling like you've got mastery over your space.

[00:10:42] And the other end of the spectrum are like your Marie Kwan do kind of people who are like, you know, bare minimum, you know, it's going to be like simplistic minimalist.

[00:10:52] No, you know, no affectations, no expressions of, you know, your personal interest. It's just white walls, you know, I mean, so there's there's this kind of one extreme to the other but most people probably fall somewhere along that, you know, along that spectrum.

[00:11:09] And I grew up with a, you know, an adoptive mother who was she'd like to keep things simple and austere she wanted things very, she was drawn to like, she liked that colonial kind of a look you know the puritanical, you know, keep it simple, you know, very square shapes,

[00:11:27] you know, just to me it was very lacking in any real personal touches, you know she didn't have a lot of art on the wall she didn't have much going on in terms of, you know, it was more about the furniture and you know the pieces and the practicality of it.

[00:11:45] And I tended to be more like Victorian I wanted flourish and color and you know kind of like wild patterns and shapes and all kinds of interesting things.

[00:11:55] But I can, I can tend towards going overboard a little bit and so, you know now that I'm an adult and I've kind of figured out my style.

[00:12:06] And I tend to be more like Boho like I like, you know something that expresses me. And I see that as being part of like the knowing yourself process like that's the first stage is just to learn, you know who am I, where do I like, where, where are my values, what are the things that move me and

[00:12:26] what do I speak to me and you know kind of music do I listen to what kind of art do I like you know who am I at my core.

[00:12:34] And so we work on that and I integrate all kinds of personality indicators and, you know, I do a whole values and assessment based on you know what is this person about what makes them tick.

[00:12:49] And then, you know kind of the next thing is to kind of move to, you know that alignment phase where we're trying to bring in, you know, that body mind spirit, you know, am I in alignment with these things like what are my priorities as far as taking care of myself

[00:13:06] and why, you know, am I doing enough to nurture nourish my soul and feed my body in a way that is beneficial and is in alignment with who am I, you know, because I think that says a lot right there too, you know like if say a person is at their heart

[00:13:28] and they're not vegetarian and they're not living according to that, that's something we need to look at. Why is that not why are you not doing that for yourself if it's important to you versus you know if maybe there's something else like maybe they really like to go for walks but they haven't going for walks.

[00:13:44] Well, why not what's getting in the way of that so we kind of look at those blocks and try to figure out how we can take those out of the way and, and, you know, move you back into alignment with what is important to you.

[00:13:57] And so that kind of flows into the next stage which is to empower yourself. And I think that, you know, there's a next level of that you know when you empower yourself you're not only giving yourself permission, but you're giving yourself the motivation and the inner spark you're

[00:14:15] getting that inner flame and saying, this is what brings me joy. And it's something I'm passionate about. And it's something I really want for myself and so you know like that could have to do with like your job to I have had clients I've worked with over the years that were like,

[00:14:33] I hate my job. I mean it just like they were just sitting there one day and they're like, I hate my job and I was just like, Okay, well what are we going to do about that. And you know they would we would process together you know what is what is your dream job look like what would make you feel fulfilled.

[00:14:49] And so they take it to that next level and sure enough within a couple of months they were in a new job that they loved and they were doing you know something that really fed their, their soul and that they could come home at night and feel good about.

[00:15:03] And so you know it kind of like, it's looking at all these different aspects of our lives. The next step would be to get mobilized like and how do we mobilize well we have to take action. You know we can, you know, when we talk about doing like spell work, we're casting intention into the world we're saying this is my intention.

[00:15:24] But if we just sit there and go well I intend to do this but I'm just going to sit here and wait for it to happen. It's not really going to happen. So, you know the mobilizing is really about taking that action and taking that next step and there's some risk involved, but it's good risk because it usually reaps really good reward.

[00:15:44] And then of course you know we get to that transformation phase and that's where things fall into place. And that's also where we start to transform around us like we're, we're, you know, looking at am I wearing clothes that make me feel good in my body and my, you know, am I doing things in my home that make me feel, you know, maybe it's, you know, prioritizing, you know, cooking meals at home and creating a space in your kitchen that really, you know, honors that and gives you that.

[00:16:14] You have a chance to make these beautiful wonderful meals for your family. And it's really all about like taking, you know what you've learned about yourself from within and extending it to your outer world.

[00:16:30] And so I kind of call that I call it might let's see what was the word I came up with this in my coaching the other day we said we're creating sacred spaces from the inside out. So that's kind of how we get there.

[00:16:44] Yeah, yes. And I still agree. And because I've known you for five years, I think what is powerful is that you have walked that journey, you're walking that journey of becoming and I think for adoptees in particular, the who am I right like

[00:17:04] we often don't have a lot of our information of ancestry biological family. We have a lot that's kept from us, and we can feel a lot of loss. It can be hard to figure out who am I right we may have grown up with a family that for me like my family was not very spiritual and yet I was just this strangely

[00:17:28] spiritual does turn out that that flows pretty strong in my biological family, but they didn't get that right and so I tried to mute it a bit. Right.

[00:17:39] So, so the becoming and the who am I and there's something that you and I have in common in our becoming is that, and I think a lot of adoptees do share this is that we the name thing so I want to talk about the name right because

[00:17:57] before coming out of the fog. I was Judy and shortly after I changed my name to Jude, and Jude is totally who I am like it's, you know, I feel strong in that and, and when I met you, you were Rachel.

[00:18:15] So, would you share your journey around becoming. Sure. So, yes, my adopted name was Rachel, Rachel Marie and you know I mean it's a great name and I have no problem with it it just.

[00:18:35] I, I'm not the same person as when I entered into my reunion. And I think that to me. I have to leave that identity behind for my own, you know, integration. It's it's helped me to kind of figure out like who do I want to be.

[00:18:54] And I'm not 100% it's like I kind of feel like I'm still kind of in the middle between the two names like, like I still have Rachel as my legal name and so I'm still called that out on the public world.

[00:19:07] But Sloan was the name my biological mother gave me. And that I mean it's, it's a cool name and I really love it.

[00:19:15] But I still, I'm still trying to step into the power of that name because that name means warrior Rachel meant little lamb. And I never felt like a little way.

[00:19:26] Oh my God, I've always kind of been this kind of like rebel that's like ready to go but I had this, you know, adoptive parents were like, Nope, stop, you know, behave.

[00:19:37] And I found out, you know, that my bio mom was also a bit of a troublemaker growing up and one of the prank she pulled on her parents one day was to switch the salt and the sugar.

[00:19:49] And so her dad went to make coffee and pour salt into his coffee.

[00:19:56] And I went, Oh, that's so me I would have done that if I could have gotten away with it you know, but now you know I'd like I wouldn't dare because my adopted parents were so like, straight laced and kind of uptight and they were all you know they were very busy by the

[00:20:14] business people but they were also, they were Protestant theologians so while I did grow up in a very religious household, I would say it was not particularly spiritual.

[00:20:26] And I was this like I kind of mentioned before I was this kind of little wild child that was out communing with the fairies and the woods and you know like for me everything was a spiritual experience like I really connected with,

[00:20:43] you know, the wind and the ground and the trees on all of these natural elements just you know it would be me and my cat and we would just go on adventures every day. And so that was really who I was as a kid.

[00:21:00] I think that that child was Sloan, you know she was the one who really kind of took charge and wasn't afraid and like did things that you know she's a little Peter Pan.

[00:21:14] Um, you know, and there is I do have elements of that now I'm a little bit of a I got a little bit of a Peter Pan complex because I feel like, well, one I'm a dog on the Chinese zodiac so like we're known to age

[00:21:29] and so now I'm actually getting to be a child. You know, I was a little adult for a while there. And I realized now that I need to be, you know, I need to honor that child from within and and give them space so.

[00:21:44] But yeah, that that's kind of where I'm at with my name and I'm ready to change it legally I think and that's going to be the next step for me.

[00:21:55] I really relate to that like when you're talking about kind of the in between this and I don't think I fully because I did just change to Jude. I didn't have to do it legally because my name legally is Judith.

[00:22:09] So Judy was a nickname but called my whole life that and I just swiped it and changed it, but it wasn't until very recently so that was 2019 five years ago and

[00:22:22] I'm not sure if it's the last like within this last couple weeks do I feel that I am stepping fully into Jude and and I don't know that I'm in the power of that yet because when I first started trying that name on it felt powerful, and I had connections

[00:22:37] with Sloan as a child that I felt and it's been interesting because I have I felt really called us at vigil with Judy and and it's like now I feel whole and it's interesting and so I don't feel that I'm fully in the power but of it all and yet I know I'm on the precipice and

[00:23:02] and I see I've watched and seen you stepping more and more in this loan and it's been a it's been a really beautiful thing to witness and observe and I feel that for all adoptees like I really long for that because that is in itself a homecoming and one thing that came through after this.

[00:23:24] I'm sorry I'm getting emotional was this super strong voice within myself. That was my own voice but kind of new or just sounded stronger and it sounded unified because I think there's been these little parts and pieces of me that have been integrating and bringing home.

[00:23:44] And I saw this picture of a bio who is a musician and I sent some things out to a friend of my children. And, you know, they were like, Oh, I can see some of you and it was like that.

[00:24:01] That mirroring piece that we talk about and the voice said you always knew who you were. You didn't need it reflected back you didn't need to see it in them you didn't need to see it anywhere you always knew you were.

[00:24:14] And right and yet I was always kind of shutting it down and dimming it and, and all of this to fit in and and so it was so strong. And it was like, Oh my gosh, I have I have always known who I was.

[00:24:29] And yet I was not in a place where I could be myself and world. And so I'm excited to see what really stepping into that feels like, and I know that that's the work that you're doing through your program and I think that's exciting for for people to be able to because it does start inside like you were saying and then bring it out into our homes and things we wear how we show up for ourselves

[00:24:59] and so I want to say it like that internal transformation becomes an external one. Now, how are you, how are you helping people make that connection so that what the work that they're doing internally, how are they manifesting it like, I want to talk about the home space since this is about finding

[00:25:21] like how are you helping them with their home space and utilizing that to make that connection.

[00:25:27] Sure. Well, so something that I spend a fair amount of time doing it in the early stages is really focusing on those assessments. And we do a lot of kind of archetypal work where we look at you know what are the active archetypes that are kind of driving the bus in your world right now.

[00:25:48] And so that's a big factor, because it really influences, you know, kind of where your priorities are.

[00:25:56] You know, and if you're still working on like the inner child work then the priority is really to get deep into those traumas and, you know, at that point like if that's, you know, kind of what's activated, you know, I always suggest that they do like therapy and tandem, because,

[00:26:15] you know, therapy focuses on that inner healing that child, you know, healing work that that you do and then of course coaching is more about like, how do we take what, you know, our inner strengths and what makes us whole and what makes us powerful and translate it into manifesting,

[00:26:33] you know, things in our world. And so, you know, I want to make sure that that person has really, you know, kind of they're on the right path that they're in a good space, emotionally, mentally, physically.

[00:26:45] You know, and I've had people that I have had to say, you know what, you're not ready yet. And then, you know, let them go and work on their therapy and then they come back to me and say, okay, I'm ready now.

[00:26:56] But I think, you know, we focus first on self like that really is the priority and, you know, where they need to be in their in their head and in their heart.

[00:27:09] And then we take that and say, well, what is going to also fill our spirit and give us, you know, that kind of extra something.

[00:27:19] And I think, you know, when, when we get that alignment, it all starts to fall in place, you know, like it will come together and I find, you know, like for me, as I was going through this process, I was finding objects finding items, and I would bring them into my home

[00:27:38] and be like, oh, this is so cool. And then I would set it somewhere and I would not really think about it until later. And then, you know, after I started doing this work on myself and kind of pulling it all together.

[00:27:52] These objects would come back out again and I go, you know what this might look really, really good on my window or this might look really good hanging from, you know, from the ceiling or you know what not and, and it was amazing to me how quickly I was able to kind of take these found

[00:28:07] objects and find a home for them versus just keeping them in a pile. Because you know, I don't know about you but with ADHD I have doom piles for eternity. But and I don't know that that's ever going to go away I still have paperwork doom piles that I have to tackle

[00:28:22] You know, one problem at a time I suppose. But it does it comes together so like fluidly once you start feeling that sense of So what I'm looking for confidence isn't quite where I'm at it's like, it's almost like the courage to live out loud.

[00:28:48] You know to really find your voice and to you know, because your voice isn't just your speaking voice but the voice that like commands your world, you know and creates your

[00:29:01] Right, it's expression right like in and so our home is an expression of ourselves I really, really love that. And, and I love the pieces you know that we pick and and put because as you're talking about it was just bring me to how I'll do that for myself and

[00:29:31] You know, I actually, that's how I discovered I was magical. I was in Korea, and my life is falling apart and I had this little apartment friend. I was making it beautiful I had a candle and a little plant to nurture every day.

[00:29:46] And I realized that I had all this power within me to create comfort, peace, a space that I felt safe in. Right and, and I think for adoptees or anyone with early childhood trauma, creating a felt sense of safety, you know, is huge because we won't express ourselves

[00:30:14] or be our full selves. Right, unless we feel safe. It really starts with that. And so I really appreciate you know what you're sharing and then I want to ask about something another thing that we have in common and for me this did

[00:30:36] it came on the heels of coming out of the fall, about six nine months later. And for you I think it was much before but it also I think drove me toward finding and establishing home and myself and that is the loss of my adopted mom.

[00:30:56] Right, because I will say after she passed it was like all of a sudden I felt like an orphan in the world. I felt very like you know kind of floating out at sea. Do you mind sharing your story with that and did that kind of also lead you toward home within yourself can you share that with us.

[00:31:16] Sure. Yeah, so my adoptive mom died a really a long time ago. She died in 2003 from ovarian cancer. And she was a really interesting person. You know I mentioned she was she kind of like to keep it simple and you know was more austere in her lifestyle but she was very driven in her profession.

[00:31:42] She was a feminist and a pioneer in this powerhouse in, you know she was a dragon on the Chinese odiac that tells you anything she she she wasn't afraid to play with the big boys I will put it that way.

[00:31:56] And her career was really demanding she worked 6070 hours a week and I just I can't even imagine that kind of life but she was very successful.

[00:32:07] And I think she just burned out really young, and I watched her deteriorate really you know kind of over those three years ovarian cancer is just it's a beast and I think, you know she was a she was a licensed psychologist and a pastoral counselor and so she was also ordained with the United Church of Christ so she had kind of this, you know trifecta of, you know just power and influence

[00:32:35] and power to her. And so a writer published author, and she traveled she did public speaking she traveled around the world in her last few years, you know giving talks about her work that she had done to she was very successful in her reality and I'm not very much looked up to her and

[00:32:56] I felt very inadequate by comparison. I just felt like I never could aspire to that level of ambition or achievement. And so when she died.

[00:33:13] I really felt like I lost who I was, because I didn't have a strong sense of myself I felt very enmeshed with her. And it, it shattered me like I just, I just fell apart.

[00:33:31] The first year after she passed I barely remember, but I left my teaching career very quickly after that because she was the one who wanted me to be a teacher.

[00:33:42] And I think I was just kind of putting on a show for her while she was alive. And I realized very quickly after she passed that this was not where I wanted to be.

[00:33:52] I started out as an interior designer in a, in the commercial industry and I did not like doing commercial design but I loved interior design.

[00:34:01] And so I found my way back to kitchen and bath design and I really, I really loved it that that part it kept me afloat.

[00:34:10] It kept me going and, but I would say it was a very dark time, even though I was doing what I loved I was in a really dark place and doing a lot of shadow work, just trying to, to heal and to feel full again.

[00:34:26] And it took a long time I'd say, you know, I'd say that it was one of those things where if I had been more attuned with my needs I probably would have done some soul retrieval with a shaman, just because I really lost myself very

[00:34:47] I don't even, it's completely, I just, I don't know what else to describe it and it took me a good five years to really kind of come back from that. And I think it's taken me, you know, two decades to really like kind of hone in I've been in reunion now since

[00:35:05] as well. And this last five years has been really life changing, like I've, I've really not only become a very different person, but I've done a lot of reflecting on my past and on my relationship with my adoptive family.

[00:35:23] And some of it's been pretty painful. And some of it's been very, you know, it's like, okay, well I, it made me who I am too so there's some acceptance that goes into that and, and I think now I'm just trying to figure out you know where do I fit with my, my family of origin.

[00:35:44] And now that we've found each other so we're doing a lot of that kind of healing work and, and just spending time together and whatnot. Did I answer your question?

[00:35:58] I believe so I believe that it did kind of point you on a journey, right, like toward because you left teaching. Like something you didn't want to do, but you began making choices for yourself and right and for your wholeness.

[00:36:16] And, you know, I'll ask about your, your family of origin. I like that family of origin.

[00:36:26] And building a sense of home there. Do you mind sharing a little bit about that because I think they are our family of origin and yet we have this big chunk of history, kind of missing and so sometimes that can be

[00:36:43] a lot of a down back and forth journey and, and yeah so do you mind sharing some of that your journey of that with us. Sure. Well, I, there's, there's just a huge amount of time that was lost and so there's not something you can get back.

[00:37:04] I mean there are times where they'll, they'll talk about their, you know, stories from their youth my two sisters to have sisters and, and they'll exchange a look or they'll have like some inside, you know, kind of like, oh yeah, and I'll just kind of be sitting there going,

[00:37:19] I missed that, you know, like I didn't get to be part of that and, and I know.

[00:37:25] I mean that part hurts because it's like, I just want that connection so much with them but we've also done a really amazing job of creating new memories together and spending time together like last summer we went to Oak Creek

[00:37:39] and I was in Oak Island as a family and I got to spend a whole like 10 days with them on the coast and really enjoying, you know, just being a family like just being together and doing stuff and learning about how they operate and, you know, it's kind of funny because you get to know

[00:37:57] how it works, you know, when you spend that kind of time together and it is something I mean I've debated even moving back to North Carolina my biggest obstacle right now is just you know trying to figure out logistically how that would work, you know, but if I were going to do that like that is, I mean it is a possibility

[00:38:14] to be kind of bouncing it around and haven't gotten there yet, you know, and I have my two daughters here so there's that.

[00:38:22] And I'd say I'm a lot closer to my, my bio dad and his family like I've really they've, they've welcomed me in and really, you know, allow them they allow me to just be who I am which is amazing because I don't think I've ever had that from anyone, but my dad is definitely different

[00:38:41] and he's a medical analyst. He's high, which is you know an alternative religion as well. So, you know, we have kind of this, this threat of rebellion in our family like we're all really kind of offbeat quirky characters, you know, we're not.

[00:38:57] And I love that, you know, as soon as I met them I was like, Oh, these are my people, you know, like, there was this in, you know, kind of, and every once in a while something will happen I'll get like, Oh no, did that just happen and they'll just like, Don't worry about it.

[00:39:11] You know, and to me, it's, I'm just like really, really seriously like you're not going to get mad at me. So it's, it's been really healing for me to have a relationship with somebody who doesn't like condemn me or judge me or like catastrophize like things that I like mistakes that I've made or things that I've done so I feel like there's

[00:39:34] a, there's a, just a deep acceptance there. And I don't, I don't know I haven't been talking about my, my bio mom much. She is in my life, but we're just not connecting right now and I'm not sure what to do about it.

[00:39:48] She's a lovely woman. And I really, I miss her all the time I miss her. But I feel like she keeps me at arms length and I don't know how to, I don't know how to get her defenses down and so I've just been kind of giving her space but I don't know that that's what she wants I just

[00:40:07] don't, I don't know what to do so I'm kind of like, um, yeah. And I need to work on that and I'm still trying to figure it out. But we'll see. She has her moments where she can be really fun but then she kind of shuts down and hard to get through.

[00:40:30] And I think there's a, there's always an element of just like trusting the unfolding of things. And I think that as you continue resolving different pieces and finding those fragments and bring them home, that that might fall into place, you know, would be my hope.

[00:40:50] And then I want to ask, because she went to untangling our roots and I think it was your first time really connecting with a larger group of adoptees and I hear this. I haven't experienced that yet. I mean, I met Simon in Ireland, but I hear and even when I'm on a zoom call like with with a group you feel the connection, the shared experience connection and did being in a group of

[00:41:20] a collective group of adoptees to that sort of feel like home. What was that like for you? I'm not, I think maybe because it was my first time there and I was very overwhelmed by it and I'm very introverted. I feel like it was.

[00:41:45] Yeah, and it was in Denver, which is where I lived for a long time. So I have a lot of memories there. I felt like a fish out of water a little bit, if I'm honest. I mean, I didn't feel, I did, there were some people I really felt connected with but then there was also just this kind of like

[00:42:04] anxiety, I guess or fear of not fitting in no matter what like it just it's always there and I'm sure it's there for other people too. So they probably felt it the way I did it was like I want I wanted to like

[00:42:20] I don't know there's something about like when you're on Facebook and you're connecting with people on Facebook like you know or even anywhere on social media and you feel like that connection it's safer when you're in person risk that's involved that you don't necessarily have on social media.

[00:42:37] So I'm not going to say that I felt like I just fit right in and it felt really comfortable because I felt like I want it. I was curious to see if people would recognize me because I do have a picture on my and I was surprised at how few people did.

[00:42:56] I was surprised by that I had a few people that I connect with and I interact with regularly on Facebook did not recognize me in person.

[00:43:05] So I was surprised by that, but it was it was exciting it was almost have to admit I had a little hero worship going on to because it was like there are influencers that I follow that I'm I respect so deeply and admire so much that I was just like

[00:43:22] I was like, I'm like, you're here you're real you're you know like and so there was a little bit of that, you know, kind of star struck kind of phenomenon like where I was like almost too shy to say hello because

[00:43:35] it's like, yeah, I hear a worship of this person and you know they say you should never meet your heroes.

[00:43:41] Right. Yeah, so yeah, and I did talk to a few people about like how I was feeling they're like you know what that's actually normal because you know your first time you're just getting your feet wet you know it's just like you're stepping into like the kiddie pool at this point you know and when you're ready you'll

[00:43:59] you'll dump into the you'll dive into the deep end and it won't even feel like anything but you know it's I think it was for me just getting acclimated to the idea of being part of this much bigger like phenomenon than I was really I mean there was almost 300 people there.

[00:44:18] And I just wow, like these people all came together to for the same reason that I you know am here and I did have to kind of get used to the idea though of like the because it wasn't just adoptees you know there's none.

[00:44:35] None of paternal folk and then there's also the donor conceived and, and they have a very different experience than what we have gone through and so I had to really sit with that and listen to that, and to understand it because you know our world is defined by our adoption, whereas theirs was completely

[00:44:56] appended by their revelations like they grew up thinking one thing and then being told something totally different so it's a very different, you know kind of reality because most of us grew up knowing what we were and what what it meant. Yeah, yeah.

[00:45:15] Thank you for your vulnerability and I'm going whoever's listening to us because there's so many adoptees I think that would possibly feel that way feel it right because we do struggle with fitting in.

[00:45:31] I know that there have been moments in the community where I've realized that it almost feels more important to me here in this community to fit in because I'm like these are my people right like and so if I don't fit in here well then what the.

[00:45:48] Yes, right like it would be like those. Yeah, you know that's very real. Yeah, there's no hope for me. There was a little bit of that I was like, oh what if they don't like me.

[00:46:07] I want to get back to the feeling of home that you have experienced so beautifully with your family of origin that you talked about being able to be there and just experienced this this full acceptance.

[00:46:28] And you know, you're like I make a mistake and it's okay like just full unconditional love and acceptance and is it has it provided to you about sense of safety because I think you even said that's been healing.

[00:46:43] That I think you know your inner child are long for and needed. And has that helped to repair your sense of home with it. So, can I tell a funny story.

[00:47:03] It's a little I mean, but so I went home for Thanksgiving in 2022 to visit and we were at my aunt's house for that day and so all my cousins are there and my, you know, aunt and uncle and my other uncle and and like it was just it was a full house my sisters were there.

[00:47:27] And all their partners and everything so we're, we're in the house and my sister area she's my youngest sister. She, she, she pulled out some edibles.

[00:47:40] So I was like, okay, I'll take one of those. And so she hands it to me and I like, I was like well how strong is this she's like, it's you know we had this kind of back and forth exchange is like well it was pretty strong and I was like, Oh, well how you know like, you know we I didn't really think

[00:47:59] much so I just popped the whole thing in my mouth and I ate it and she goes.

[00:48:03] Oh, that's okay. You know like she kind of like it pause for a moment I was like, oh, and so I go and I sit down and I'm talking to my dad and we're just chilling and about 15 minutes in it hits, it hits like a tidal wave.

[00:48:19] And I go. Oh, this is strong, you know, and so I, and I'm. So I run to the bathroom of course and I'm getting sick in the bathroom, and everybody starts coming to visit me to check on me to make sure I'm okay.

[00:48:35] And I'm thinking and I'm thinking to myself like as much as I'm like getting sick and stuff I'm thinking to myself, oh God they're going to they're going to hate me now they're never going to forgive me they're going to be like, I can't believe she did this she came into the house and totally like

[00:48:49] just ruin Thanksgiving and blah, blah, blah because that's how it would have been handled when we have my adoptive family I would have been like ostracized for that it would have been just a disaster.

[00:49:01] And so I'm like, kind of like getting upset and getting my anxiety is going up and I'm like, and I'm like, are you mad at me, you know, because my dad's at the door I'm like, are you mad at me because are you kidding me

[00:49:16] I'm telling you about the time I dropped it into the story about how he got so sick and I just didn't stay there going. Oh, thank you, thank you. Thank you for this, you know, I mean like here I'm in this horrible moment of just humiliating

[00:49:33] he's telling me about like his moments of, you know, indiscretion where he's done similar embarrassing and humiliating things and I just thought to myself, what a change from the world I grew up in this you know that that, you know, kind of puritanical kind of like repressed,

[00:49:55] you know, like never step out of line don't never do anything bad never you know you've got to be perfectly well behaved all the time and, and here's this man who's just like yeah I was a hippie.

[00:50:07] Don't worry about it. And I just I love that that I can like and my whole family was like, Oh, oh guess you did this last year, you know, like it's so like, it took all the pressure and all of the shame out of out of it for me because

[00:50:24] that's where my head instantly went was straight to shame straight to shame and I felt so embarrassed. And yet, like they were just, I mean, and on the way out the door I managed to throw up and my uncle's just like, What?

[00:50:40] You missed. You missed a toilet on that one. Like, yeah, you're not kidding. You know, it was kind of like just the joking, you know, they were just like laughing it off. You have to clean my vomit up now like you know how embarrassing.

[00:50:55] And he was just like, Naps happens all the time.

[00:51:00] Yeah, well, what I love about it is just real like this is life. And it's just real and it's just acceptance of what is and I think that's a really powerful place to be like if we can live like that.

[00:51:13] And what I what I am reminded of through listening to you and again thanks for your vulnerability because a lot of people like to bring a college story. And but it's, it's the journey is real and often healing can be found in these wacky unexpected moments.

[00:51:32] And I like to call the adoptee journey like the long and winding road home. And you know, it's, it is a spiral growth, right? Like we it's not this straight line.

[00:51:45] And so, you know, we come to these moments where we heal and then we come around and we learn a lesson again. We talked about Shane.

[00:51:52] And you I because I know you I know you've gone around the spiral many times and it wasn't your first moment with Shane. And but each time we get a different perspective, we feel a little bit more.

[00:52:04] And, you know, and we are learning to release these really low frequency, not fun feeling feelings like Shane and begin to build capacity for higher frequency feelings and feeling better and better.

[00:52:21] And, you know, where you're at in your journey now on becoming Sloan that's what I'm becoming Sloan.

[00:52:31] You know, can you share a little bit of just that because I know that you're in like a higher frequency better feeling state than you were when we met same as me and, you know, not.

[00:52:49] Can you share any insight just from your personal experience with building that capacity or just giving hope that, you know, if you're in that beginning stage or still in shame that that's not a license. You know what would you share about that.

[00:53:07] I mean, I really like what Brené Brown says about shame and that is that the only way to really like release it and let it go is by talking it out like and by sharing it with someone that you trust and can confide in who will understand.

[00:53:24] And I think that talks about the importance of how it is, you know, you need to find that trusted confinon. You know, you can't just tell it to anybody you need somebody who's going to support and encourage you there and I think that's what our community does.

[00:53:38] And that's our superpower. Like when we come to each other and say, Oh my gosh, I'm just, I feel like I'm just in the muck and I don't know how to handle it anymore. People, you know, rise the occasion and they're just like, you know, just put it out there.

[00:53:54] And then we'll just hear the whole thing what's going on, you know, and then we'll come to each other's, you know, kind of aid, you know, and just offer words of encouragement and support. You can do it, you know, hang in there.

[00:54:07] You've got this, you know, we really cheer each other on. And I love that about our community just because it's being adopted is such a unique experience.

[00:54:19] And if you are adopted, you cannot possibly know what it's like. I mean, it just and it's frustrating when you try to talk to somebody who isn't adopted because they'll ask a lot of questions that, you know, for us, like seem obvious.

[00:54:37] You know, we have to spend time educating them and trying to explain things to them. Whereas another adoptee is going to come along and go, girl, let me tell you, you know, been there done that, you know, and here's my story to boot.

[00:54:52] You know, and so we can, we can have this kind of cathartic, you know, kind of sharing of our experiences and not feel so alone and not feel like, you know, we're the only ones in the world who've been that been there and done that because growing up we were isolated in a lot of ways like,

[00:55:10] you know, because we don't have a sign on our head that says I was adopted, although I swear to God, people like can tell like I don't know how but like it especially like the bullies in the schoolyard like they could tell.

[00:55:23] They would see us out and find ways to make us feel even more different. And I never understood it. I think it was because we were so sense. I was so sensitive. I was a sensitive child and I had a lot of anxiety and so they picked up on that energy and I feel like now I have, you know, like when somebody comes for me

[00:55:43] and go, Oh, okay, well you know what there's power in numbers. So I'm going to call my friend Megan over here to come and help me out or I'm gonna call June have her come help me out and explain to these people, you know, why this is important to us and what it means and and so, you know, you have

[00:56:01] to be like suddenly a camaraderie and a cohort and a sense of belonging and community and like we need that. I think we desperately need that because for us, you know, being displaced was the definition of our world like we were displaced as children, and whether or not

[00:56:24] we fit in with our family that we were placed with, you know, that there are varying degrees of that like I did not feel like I felt like completely fit like I felt fit with them.

[00:56:36] The way I would should have I mean, it wasn't a total match. But there were things about them that I that really bothered me like I felt like

[00:56:49] there were things like my creativity and my need to express myself was very heavily suppressed. You know, they were very conventional and mainstream. If for what, even though they had unconventional careers, they were very much mainstream

[00:57:05] thinkers like they really were all about like, you know, to be a good citizen, you have to be lobbying and all this stuff and I'm all about like, if the law is unjust, I am not going to follow it because like this, this country is gone crazy with making laws over

[00:57:22] everything, including my body. And I'm not having that, you know, so I think, you know, they on the one hand they taught me critical thinking and to question and the problem solve. But on the other hand, there was this kind of but you always have to behave yourself in a certain

[00:57:40] way. And I didn't agree with that from the get go. And I also was very much drawn to, you know, goddess energy versus God energy and they're they were all about God, and I was all about the goddess. And so, as long as they could accept

[00:58:02] that about me, we did okay. But I think it's a certain point they stopped accepting that about me and I, I went through a period of really questioning whether or not I could live with that. And I came to the conclusion that not only can I live with that, but it's what gives me power it's where I draw my strength

[00:58:26] and can't ever let anybody take that away from me again. Like I can't, I will never question my allegiances or my loyalty to my own faith and my own belief system. And so, you know, it took a long time for me to get there to feel good about that.

[00:58:48] Yeah, yeah. I you hit on two things that I think are super duper important and one, and I hear this a lot in the community. It seems that we tend to have some moment of abandoning ourselves or not being true to ourselves.

[00:59:09] And we do, we make an allegiance. I like that word that you used to ourselves to be true and to never do that again. And I think that that is a real turning point in the adoptee's journey toward home and finding self.

[00:59:25] And then I really love what you have picked up on in our community around the support right and especially in the moments of shame because Shane does like the to hide.

[00:59:36] Shane likes to stay in the secret and not be told. So I think that Renee Brown, I totally agree like that is right like when we share the things that were changed about it loses its power over us. And you're right, like in our community, maybe because we have been friends with Shane, there is such acceptance and unconditional love and I was just as I was listening to you I was thinking about because that is what I was always looking for.

[01:00:06] Was was love like that. That was my addiction. That was what I was looking for and coming home meant that I had to be the one to love myself and really turn what I instead of looking for out here, but there is we are very often that unconditional love for each other in this community and it's just really powerful to have that and to have that

[01:00:36] acceptance. And I think it's interesting because I think that is something that we in general tend to be looking for to receive.

[01:00:49] I think it's part of the mother was looking for that unconditional. And, and yet, I'm not sure that we see clearly how much we embody it and how powerful that is our superpower in the world, not just within our community but as we go out in the world that we embody this divine unconditional love.

[01:01:09] So, thank you for hitting on that. And I'm going to ask Simon if he has any questions or anything that he wants to hit on while we wrap it up. Again, you've done a beautiful job and I just wanted to leave you in the flow. Thank you.

[01:01:34] Thank you. The vulnerability. You know, like the, the, the, the, the bombshell truth isn't it? Like, aha, you know, shame, shame likes to hide. You know, like, there's not the truth. Yeah. So, thank you both of you. Brilliant.

[01:01:58] So, yeah, I was going to say, so on if, like, if you had, you know, just because I think our journeys can be arduous and we do get wisdom along the way, if you would like one bit of wisdom that you would like to share with adoptees, what would that be?

[01:02:29] I, one of the things that I've seen a lot of people saying is that you need to really prepare yourself for reunion like get, get, you know, do all this work, get prepared. Don't go into it until you have a plan and, and whatnot.

[01:02:44] And I think what I have to say is good luck because I don't think there's any amount of planning that can prepare you for what lies ahead.

[01:02:57] I, I didn't have a plan. I didn't really even expect it to happen the way it did. Like when I went looking, I did my DNA test, got my results, didn't have any rule, like, didn't have a lot of connections. I mean, I didn't think I did.

[01:03:14] I had a lot of distant cousins apparently. And so, you know, when my search angel started putting together my family tree and was able to piece that together literally in a week.

[01:03:23] I was like, Oh my gosh. So from, you know, I went from kind of going, you know, literally having this giant question mark hanging on my head my whole life to having that mystery solved in a week and then going into reunion and meeting these people.

[01:03:38] I'm no way of knowing what could have transpired like they could have been anything they could have been anyone.

[01:03:45] Like we don't know. And I mean, the surprises that come from it. You know, I just, I went in with basically an attitude of curiosity because curiosity is kind of the driving force in my life and it's, it has served me well.

[01:04:02] And so I didn't, I went in just keeping my heart open and saying whatever happens happens. But I, I hear a lot of people are like you really have to do all this work to prepare and blah blah blah and I'm just like, I just don't see how that's possible.

[01:04:18] How do you prepare yourself to solve the large like the biggest mystery of your life. And then, you know, come out of it like with all these new relationships and all of these new, you know, revelations all these discoveries.

[01:04:33] And I mean, I guess, you know, if you're preparing yourself for, you know, that that is not going to work out. I guess there's some, maybe you can do some amount of, you know, like, not like letting yourself get heartbroken by it, you know, but I mean, can you really I mean, it's going to hurt.

[01:04:50] And it's going to hurt even if it's good. You know, I can't tell you how much grieving I've done, even though it's been a really beautiful experience for me. Like, I think about like the fact that my daughters grew up without grandparents and how much that has just affected every aspect of their lives.

[01:05:10] And, you know, I mean my adoptive dad was not very involved with my kids they saw him infrequently and he pretty much would come drop a bunch of money and leave you know that was his idea of a visit.

[01:05:23] My, my biological dad would have actually been very involved and very you know he wants to have a relationship with me and with them and.

[01:05:32] And, you know, they're almost the same age as my as my half siblings so like they're just a little bit younger than my half sibling so it's a very different, you know, kind of relationship for them because even though they're the grandkids they didn't get to grow up with grandpa and, you know, and knowing and grandma

[01:05:52] knowing all of these people and so they're now trying to integrate you know and so that's the other aspects is that it doesn't just affect you it affects your whole like family, you know, and my in my case I was a fairly small unit because it was me my daughters.

[01:06:07] But, you know, as far as like if you've got extended family or adoptive family everyone's going to be impacted by it. Yeah, that's good advice and end insight. And I think what comes to mind is in our journeys toward finding self and stepping into our sovereignty and agency.

[01:06:32] There is we have the power of these choices. Right. And building trust within ourselves that whatever does happen.

[01:06:42] We got our own back. I think that right that's the empowerment piece because we can't control what people's responses are going to be what our biological parents whether they want to see us or not or how much or we can't control any of that.

[01:06:56] But I think going forward, there's not much we can prepare for but we do need to know that we have our own back that this is home and this is our safe place right here in our own skin.

[01:07:06] And then we got ourselves and that's kind of what I hear through your journey and so thank you just for sharing it for coming here and being with us.

[01:07:15] And we will put in the notes information for how people can get in touch with you and the name of your program and the work that you do. So thank you so much.

[01:07:25] Thanks, I'm in the process of revamping my website and and do it making some weeks and some changes in my program offerings but yet you can find me at my website that adopted which calm. Awesome. Thank you. Fantastic. Thanks Sloan. Thanks Jude. Thanks for listening.

[01:07:45] We'll speak to you again very soon. Bye bye.