How clear are you on who you are? Identity can confuse the hell out of us. Listen in as Samantha dives deep into finding herself. It may help you on your journey to finding your trues self or living from authenticity.
https://www.drsamanthabrooks.com/
https://www.linkedin.com/in/samantha-b-4763a94a/
Guests and the host are not (unless mentioned) licensed pscyho-therapists and speak from their own opinion only. Seek qualified advice if you need help.
[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be on by Samantha, Samantha Jane Brooks. We're using your middle name today, Samantha. Is that significant, the middle name?
[00:00:16] Yes, it was the name that I was given at birth actually. So my adoptive parents kept it as my middle name, so that's quite nice.
[00:00:27] Yeah, it is. So, healing, does this word resonate? To what extent does this word resonate with you?
[00:00:39] Yeah, so I suppose I should quickly say, if it means anything, you know, I'm a neuroscientist and I'm quite interested in brain processes and things.
[00:00:52] And so, when you ask me about healing and what it means, I turn to the mind and I turn to identity.
[00:01:06] And obviously you're going to talk to me a little bit more about this as we go on, but I have only recently discovered all the information about my biological past.
[00:01:20] I always knew that I was adopted. And so, you know, being a neuroscientist, you have to go through the sausage factory, which is a degree, masters, PhD, postdocs.
[00:01:35] And I've had the fortunate position, privilege to do a lot of work abroad in Sweden and South Africa.
[00:01:42] So, obviously, you know, being adopted hasn't scuppered my progress really on the face of it.
[00:01:55] But I would say that throughout my whole life, even though my adoptive family gave me, you know, a good start in life and they gave me lots of support and everything I needed to thrive.
[00:02:09] And I carried with me, you could say, you know, an empty space of knowing.
[00:02:16] That's a good way of saying it. It didn't, as I say, hamper me.
[00:02:20] I was still able to love and work. Freud says that's the two most important things to be able to do, to love and to work.
[00:02:28] But it's been a burden to carry all my life, really, until, strangely, my adoptive father sadly passed away after a two and a half year battle with cancer.
[00:02:43] He passed away in February 2020. And a few months after that, it was almost as if something, it probably doesn't sound very scientific for me to say this, but something in the universe waited for that to, you know, for him to pass away.
[00:03:00] And then my biological brother, full brother, one of them, I have two, came looking for me and that started the process of me learning everything, every small little detail through new relatives and through notes about my biological past.
[00:03:21] And, you know, I'll stop in a moment because I want you to ask me more questions.
[00:03:28] But that began the process of healing to fill in that, that gap, that space that I've carried all through my life, that burden.
[00:03:37] And, you know, even though the notes were opened and I got to meet all these new biological people, I should say, call them in 2020, that's four years ago, it's only recently that the sediment has settled.
[00:03:55] And, you know, I feel much more at peace and whole. I know everything there is to know, really, pretty much about my biological past.
[00:04:08] And luckily, through all of that, I've still been able to carry on with my career and it hasn't really hampered me.
[00:04:17] So, yeah, it does resonate with me, the healing in a nutshell.
[00:04:21] Yeah. So on one side, you're talking about some gaps, gaps in knowledge, I guess, and those being filled in, those being whole.
[00:04:36] That sounds a bit mindy, it sounds a bit heavy, right?
[00:04:42] And then on the other hand, you've got a word like burden, which sounds kind of emotional.
[00:04:53] Oddly, yeah.
[00:04:55] More emotional.
[00:04:56] Yeah.
[00:04:57] And you've got peace, which sounds more emotional to me.
[00:05:07] Well, that's interesting.
[00:05:09] So funnily enough, all of my sort of neuroscience research has been about, in fact, my master's thesis was looking at cognitive emotion interaction, funnily enough.
[00:05:21] Right.
[00:05:22] So I've always been interested in how cognitions can either, you know, Jean-Paul Sartre, and I quoted this in, I think my PhD said, that emotions can be brute, disorganising and stuporous.
[00:05:35] So they can hinder and disrupt and make things very complicated.
[00:05:41] However, on the other hand, they can make you more focused and better able to navigate your world.
[00:05:49] And what's really interesting, and I've always sort of known this, but I wasn't able to put it into words really until later on throughout my career, you know, as my knowledge increased.
[00:06:04] I believe greatly that your temperament is what you're born with.
[00:06:10] And you learn sort of cognitive responses to the environment as you develop and learn.
[00:06:16] And so your emotions, you know, when I say temperament, I mean your emotional responses, your gut feelings, your natural responses to things, your tendencies, your inclinations.
[00:06:27] And I think they're set down.
[00:06:29] I think they're much more innate.
[00:06:34] You know, they're part of your character, you could say.
[00:06:36] But if you're born into a family who has the same biological basis as you, chances are the probability is that you're going to have the same affective emotional response to the environment or very similar.
[00:06:52] But if you are adopted into a family that has a very different temperament to you, the best will in the world, you're going to be at odds.
[00:07:04] You know, your temperament and the cognitions that that family has developed through generations aren't going to match your temperament.
[00:07:14] And so I have felt that.
[00:07:42] I think come together and I've found myself, you could say.
[00:07:47] So.
[00:07:47] So.
[00:07:48] So, yeah, I think.
[00:07:50] And possibly learning because I was it's a funny thing, but I always felt in some way my biological parents in me.
[00:08:02] I felt passionate, which was what a lot of people called my biological father.
[00:08:09] He wasn't a very nice man.
[00:08:10] And I and I sometimes feel a little bit meek and agreeable to agreeable sometimes.
[00:08:18] And some people might not think that.
[00:08:23] But and that was my mother, probably.
[00:08:26] So I feel both.
[00:08:27] I felt that all my life.
[00:08:29] Having learned about them through the notes and meeting biological relatives, that was confirmed that that is who they were.
[00:08:39] So it was almost like meeting myself again, you know, coming the other way.
[00:08:43] That makes sense.
[00:08:45] So that.
[00:08:47] So I sort of probably held them in mind in a very shadowy way until the outline of them was colored in by the notes and the stories from people that had known them in their lifetime.
[00:09:03] So that is mindy.
[00:09:07] And then, yeah, the emotion, as I said, is is temperamental.
[00:09:13] And, you know, I would say it was a burden not knowing whether I can trust my emotions or whether I need to.
[00:09:28] You know, restrain them because with cognitions that I've learned from my adoptive family.
[00:09:36] You know, it's very interesting, I think.
[00:09:39] Yeah.
[00:09:42] Well, what's.
[00:09:45] Clearly, I'm not a neuroscientist.
[00:09:48] I've listened to that Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey book, which is a book that's all about.
[00:09:58] All about trauma.
[00:09:59] And it basically it makes the case for it makes the case for trauma.
[00:10:04] But to convince people that trauma is really it doesn't do much else other than establish that.
[00:10:13] And it takes an awful long time to to do it, not a book.
[00:10:17] I kept on listening to the book.
[00:10:18] So I thought I was going to get to the good bit.
[00:10:22] But basically Bruce Perry and he's a bit of a guru in this area of trauma.
[00:10:31] And it basically he says, you know, it's basically trauma, trauma all the way.
[00:10:36] It's not adoptive, adoptive specific.
[00:10:38] It's just childhood trauma, I guess.
[00:10:43] And then he says, but we've got this thing called neuroplasticity.
[00:10:48] So everything's OK.
[00:10:50] Like, you know, like everything OK.
[00:10:52] But there is hope.
[00:10:53] There is hope.
[00:10:54] And then it reads almost like a brochure for him.
[00:11:01] Right.
[00:11:02] So there's this thing called neuroplasticity, which I understand is the brain's ability to change.
[00:11:16] Now, you're saying that if we're born with this, you're talking about being born with this temperament.
[00:11:23] And I'm wondering how those two things.
[00:11:27] To me, that sounds like a clash between.
[00:11:33] Yeah, that's very interesting because, I mean, in my research, I try and harness neuroplasticity to improve the neural architecture in psychiatric populations that we're focusing on.
[00:11:50] And there is a lot of evidence that, you know, that does work.
[00:11:53] You can change things to make things better.
[00:11:58] However, I think, yeah, even though it's made me feel a lot better in myself and a lot more solid to have more gravitas in me,
[00:12:14] I'm much more able to, let's say, suffer rejection or, you know, cope with failures or, you know, lots of things in life that we all have to cope with.
[00:12:29] I don't search for people's validation as much as perhaps I used to do now that I fully there's no secrets.
[00:12:40] There's no skeletons in my closet anymore. And I think it helps in a sad way that both of my biological parents have now passed away because I got to meet one of them,
[00:12:50] my biological father, which was quite interesting and quite cathartic.
[00:12:55] It released a lot of things and I was able to say things that perhaps I'd wanted to say to him all my life.
[00:13:03] But it means that there's no onus on me now to, you know, form a relationship with him.
[00:13:13] But, yeah, even though I have much more gravitas and I'm able to, excuse me, sorry,
[00:13:21] you know, even though I'm able to navigate my world with ease because I know myself better.
[00:13:31] I still think that there's something that is left in us as adoptees.
[00:13:40] And I would say this is something that I'm still working on even now to try and understand what it is,
[00:13:46] whether it be birth trauma or not.
[00:13:51] I'm not sure about that, to be honest, because, I mean, I was taken from my biological mother
[00:13:58] as soon as I, as soon as I was born and put in a hospital cot for five days and looked after by the nurses
[00:14:06] and then taken to a family who remained my family for the rest of my life.
[00:14:12] So I was actually one of the lucky ones.
[00:14:15] But I'm still trying to fathom whether any particular trauma that's residing or left in me is from that.
[00:14:27] From being separated from something that was obviously familiar to me, a person,
[00:14:33] the smells, the sounds and everything, from the womb onwards.
[00:14:38] Or whether my trauma, my anxiety, because I do have some anxiety still,
[00:14:45] which I've sort of channeled and I'm able to get rid of through exercise and things.
[00:14:50] But whether this residual trauma comes from being at odds, like the cuckoo in the nest,
[00:14:59] you know, from the family who took me on.
[00:15:01] So they did lots of things right.
[00:15:03] And, you know, they gave me a stable home.
[00:15:05] Everything was, was solid and loving, lots of fun.
[00:15:10] They weren't perfect.
[00:15:11] No family are perfect.
[00:15:13] And I think that's great as well, because the world isn't perfect, you know.
[00:15:18] But I wonder whether being at odds, and again, going back to that cognition
[00:15:26] and emotion, temperamental differences, whether on some level you feel that
[00:15:33] as an insult or an assault on your character, I would say.
[00:15:40] And isn't there an extent to which you'll never know that?
[00:15:49] Oh, well, I'm an eternal optimist.
[00:15:53] And to be able to isolate the cause.
[00:15:59] Yeah.
[00:16:01] I'm an optimist.
[00:16:03] I'm an optimist too, sometimes very naively optimistic, right?
[00:16:08] Yeah.
[00:16:11] And I'm looking back and I'm thinking, well, how am I going to know which donkey to pin?
[00:16:19] The tail end, yes.
[00:16:20] Right?
[00:16:21] And does it matter?
[00:16:23] And I sometimes, I remember speaking to a coachy type person about this a couple of years ago,
[00:16:34] and she said, you'll never know, Simon.
[00:16:39] And if we can be at peace with that, I could be at peace at that.
[00:16:49] Yeah.
[00:16:50] I mean, I'm thinking here of like, you know, it would be quite useful to try and think about
[00:16:59] what the symptoms would be of, you know, and again, it would be retrospective.
[00:17:06] You know, I can't remember what it was like to be a baby declaratively, consciously,
[00:17:13] and being separated from that familiar object.
[00:17:20] And also, my biological mother was going through a really troubling time with her husband, probably
[00:17:27] when I was in the womb.
[00:17:28] So that could also play a part.
[00:17:32] And then, so you could say, for me, there's those three things, you know, the atmosphere
[00:17:39] that the mother was in when she was pregnant with me, being separated from her at birth,
[00:17:44] and then being placed in a family who, even though they did loads, you know, loads of things right,
[00:17:51] the biology was at odds.
[00:17:53] And, you know, so what I think could help me to heal and to understand is take those three
[00:18:04] things and in a sort of Venn diagram way, I'm very sciencey and mindy, but try and imagine
[00:18:15] what those three things would be like for me and find the commonalities between those three
[00:18:21] things, you know, so that, you know, perhaps a fetus in the womb on some level would feel
[00:18:29] like, even though it's obviously not the same, would feel like a child that was upstairs in
[00:18:33] the bedroom hearing the parents shouting and screaming downstairs.
[00:18:38] How would that feel to a child?
[00:18:41] Jarring and shocking and always on alert, you know, that on a cellular level, that could be
[00:18:49] happening to the fetus, you know, when the mother is doing that.
[00:18:54] What does it feel like to be abandoned in essence, really?
[00:18:59] And placed, I mean, I worked out that, you know, five days in a hospital cot, even though
[00:19:03] the nurses were probably lovely and everything, but they're not the same.
[00:19:07] And it's still jarring for the child.
[00:19:10] But five days, if you took five days as a percentage of nine months, that's a year in my current lifespan.
[00:19:21] So I'm 48.
[00:19:23] So that's approximately a year.
[00:19:25] So to a little baby, that's, you know, time speed, you know, gets shorter as we get older,
[00:19:32] but five days to a baby must be a long time.
[00:19:34] I mean, remember when you're a little kid, the next birthday seemed eons away.
[00:19:38] Now it comes around too quickly.
[00:19:42] So five days in a baby's life must have been really out in the wilderness.
[00:19:49] So what must it feel like to be a little defenseless baby out in the wilderness with all these strangers
[00:19:57] trying to care for you?
[00:19:58] But you're going to have to then find a way quickly to survive if you've got that survival
[00:20:04] instinct, you know, for yourself.
[00:20:07] So, and that speaks to me, actually, because I cope really well moving to new countries.
[00:20:15] You know, I figure it out quickly.
[00:20:17] And I've got a sense of myself in those situations that I rely on.
[00:20:21] And perhaps too independent because, you know, part of my life story is that I haven't married.
[00:20:28] I haven't had children, you know, because I do rely on that ability to figure it out myself a bit too much, you know.
[00:20:39] And then finally, the third thing, being in a family that's almost like an us and that, like me versus them scenario, even though they're friendly, you know, they're still a majority versus a minority.
[00:20:55] So what does that feel like?
[00:21:00] You know, I mean, you think of migrants when they come into a country and they're having to assimilate.
[00:21:07] It's it feels, you know, it feels a bit like that.
[00:21:09] So for me, I'm sort of trying to unpack those three elements of trauma or traumatic events.
[00:21:19] I've looked at those similar sorts of things myself.
[00:21:28] And as I did so, I felt, well, we've got quite, I feel like I've got quite a creative brain.
[00:21:41] And I can be over optimistic, right?
[00:21:47] So under, being optimistic would be to underestimate the trauma, right?
[00:21:56] Yes.
[00:21:56] But I can also be very naive, naively.
[00:22:02] I can be very, I can catastrophize, right?
[00:22:08] So I can underestimate it.
[00:22:11] And it would seem to me to be, in my experience, is whether I underestimate the trauma or overestimate the trauma, I'll never know.
[00:22:24] And if I'm in a good mood, I'll underestimate it.
[00:22:28] And if I'm in a bad mood, I'll overestimate it, right?
[00:22:30] Yes.
[00:22:32] So my own view can shift, you know, can turn on a dime, as America would say, you know, we can flip-flop back and forth.
[00:22:42] And to what extent, you know?
[00:22:48] It's almost about catching myself in either of those extremes, right?
[00:22:58] To come back from, to some, well, to back away in, you know, to move into the background, i.e. the space in which my thoughts appear, rather than the thoughts and feelings themselves, right?
[00:23:23] So I'm backing away and giving my current sense less seriousness, gravitas to your show.
[00:23:42] Yes.
[00:23:42] Yes.
[00:23:43] And that, you know, what you've just said there about backing away really spoke to me just then because, you know, I, when you said, you know, we can be very creative, we can fight.
[00:23:53] Like I've just done in actual fact, you can find ways.
[00:23:56] And I'm a storyteller.
[00:23:57] I like, I'm a writer as well in my career.
[00:24:00] And I can easily find a narrative to describe things in a creative way that makes, you know, it's very convincing, almost like a barrister in a court, you know.
[00:24:14] And that cognitive ability, cognising, you know, relying on cognitive explanations, narrative, language to describe things that I've done, those three scenarios I've just described is a form of backing away.
[00:24:31] Yeah.
[00:24:32] And rationalising it to give, you know, to, to, to, to get far, to not be so close to it.
[00:24:39] And I definitely think I've always done that in my life, like, um, avoiding the thing, the nub, the crux of the thing, you know.
[00:24:50] I'm getting the, I'm, so I said this thing, I came up with this thing a while ago, that I'm, I'm more interested in who I am than how I feel.
[00:25:08] Right.
[00:25:09] So that could sell, that could sound like a defence mechanism.
[00:25:15] Definitely.
[00:25:16] You know, I, I, I had this therapist and she, after we'd had a few sessions and we'd, we'd come to the natural end, really.
[00:25:24] She gave me her notes and, and, uh, it said that I, you know, I, I, I, um, I backed off into, into, into cognition or whatever she said.
[00:25:40] But the, the, the, the, the feeling, our feelings are all over the place, but we're, we're not our feelings.
[00:25:56] We're, you know, we're the, if, if the, the, our feelings are the clouds that float by, we're, we're the sky that's not impacted by the clouds.
[00:26:08] You know, the cloud, the, the, the sky isn't scared of the storm cloud of trauma.
[00:26:16] Right.
[00:26:16] It's not touched in that.
[00:26:17] It's not touched by the storm cloud of trauma.
[00:26:21] It doesn't, sky doesn't get wet when it's raining.
[00:26:26] Right.
[00:26:26] The sky doesn't get, doesn't get, the sky doesn't cry with tears.
[00:26:31] You're thinking like tears and rain.
[00:26:32] Right.
[00:26:33] So there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a peace there, but rather than an avoidance.
[00:26:42] Um, and yeah, I'm, I'm also, I keep on banging on about this as people, people are doing me.
[00:26:49] But I'm doing this somatic experiencing at the moment.
[00:26:52] Like just once, once a month, I go see this, uh, somatic experiencing and I bring the emotions right in.
[00:27:00] I bring the, I bring the emotions right in.
[00:27:03] I don't, I don't push them away.
[00:27:06] I, I actually stop talking.
[00:27:09] Like I resist the temptation to talk and I just feel, feel the feelings.
[00:27:18] So, uh, so I'm not scared of the feelings anymore.
[00:27:25] Yes.
[00:27:26] And, and the, um, I was telling you last time about this guy, Rupert Spire that I listened to all the time.
[00:27:33] And he had a great, he has a great metaphor for this.
[00:27:37] I was listening to this morning.
[00:27:39] He talks about boxers, right?
[00:27:42] So boxers in the ring, um, when they're within about, uh, uh, an arm, you know, within an arm's reach of each other, it's dangerous.
[00:27:51] Right.
[00:27:52] So at the, uh, at the end of when the bell rings, they go back to the safety of their corner.
[00:28:02] And then, uh, and then as the, the, the, the, the rounds go on, they're getting tighter, right?
[00:28:09] They're getting tighter and they, in the middle of the round, they, they can't go back to the corner.
[00:28:14] So what they do instead is they clinch, right?
[00:28:20] So if you, if you're holding on, if you're holding on to your opponent, they can't get any, they can't do any pain.
[00:28:29] He can't, he or she can't, can't get any, um, any.
[00:28:38] Punches, yeah.
[00:28:39] Inches, they can't, they can't get any, they can't, they can't harm you.
[00:28:42] They might be able to kind of like jab you a little bit underneath.
[00:28:45] But if you've, if you've got hold of them and you're one with them, they can't hurt you.
[00:28:52] So both, both are ways, right?
[00:28:57] So separating from our trauma helps us.
[00:29:05] And also going right into our trauma helps us to like bring, you know, bring it on.
[00:29:13] Yes.
[00:29:13] And think about what, what people will do in terms of pushing stuff away and numbing and, you know.
[00:29:23] Yes.
[00:29:23] We've got this thing called retail therapy, haven't we?
[00:29:26] Now, somebody's came up with this idea of retail therapy, presumably a retailer, right?
[00:29:32] Yes.
[00:29:32] Don't, don't go to therapy, come and spend some money with us, right?
[00:29:36] It's a, it's a capitalist, it's a capitalist thing, you know, and it's an excuse.
[00:29:41] Comfort eating.
[00:29:42] Yeah.
[00:29:43] Comfort eating.
[00:29:44] Do you think that was come up with that?
[00:29:46] Do you think people came up with that?
[00:29:47] We're trying to sell food.
[00:29:49] You know, they're trying to legitimize what they're selling.
[00:29:53] And also, you know, McDonald's is, I'm loving it and whatever, it sounds like a wolf whistle, you know.
[00:30:02] And a happy meal, right?
[00:30:05] The kids have a happy meal with the toilet.
[00:30:08] It's all to do with selling us stuff.
[00:30:10] And saying that our challenge, our challenge is emotional and that solution, that product is the solution to our emotions.
[00:30:23] It's all to do with trading and influences so we can justify it, you know.
[00:30:31] Yes.
[00:30:32] What's interesting about those sort of addictive behaviors is, you know, I was talking to somebody about this just today.
[00:30:39] In fact, we did a study in Cape Town which looked at contingency management where you ask people that have a drug use disorder to come in three times a week.
[00:30:52] If they give a clean urine sample and there's ways to make sure that they don't trick us, you know, bringing someone else's in or whatever, they get vouchers.
[00:31:02] Now, if you spend those vouchers, it's like a four-week study.
[00:31:07] And every week, three times a week, you get progressively higher number of vouchers, Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
[00:31:12] If by Friday you're still clean, you get more vouchers.
[00:31:15] And it goes up as the weeks go on.
[00:31:17] You've got a choice and you can either put all of your vouchers into a pile and spend them at the end of the four weeks, in which case you're going to get a bigger product, you know, which makes sense, doesn't it?
[00:31:29] You're going to get something that's more valuable.
[00:31:30] You can buy a washing machine or something.
[00:31:34] But they found that if people do that, they are less likely to stop being addicted.
[00:31:40] They have to spend the money week on week because it substitutes the dopaminergic addiction process that was used for the drug in favour of the retail therapy.
[00:31:56] So what you're still doing is you're stimulating that dopamine system with something more socially acceptable.
[00:32:05] And if you do that for four weeks, you wean yourself off of the original addiction.
[00:32:11] But you've just swapped it for a new addiction, really.
[00:32:15] But in both cases, when you are and of course, dopamine, the dopamine system habituates.
[00:32:22] So you need more and more of it, you know, gamblers and so on.
[00:32:27] But what that's doing is it's dampening the, you know, so you're using a reward process to flood, if you like, the trauma that's there.
[00:32:40] Because most people that are addicted are trying to get rid of trauma.
[00:32:44] And there is a lot of addiction in the adoption world.
[00:32:48] I would say my addiction is, you know, sweet foods, I would say.
[00:32:54] I'm a great comfort eater.
[00:32:57] And definitely when I feel a bit down, I will turn to food.
[00:33:02] And it doesn't help that, you know, our mother would always give us food.
[00:33:06] And that felt comforting because it was your mother giving us the food.
[00:33:11] But I like that idea about not running away from the emotion.
[00:33:16] And it's a bit of a silly example, but I think it really pushes the point as well.
[00:33:23] Have you ever, and I always love doing experiments with myself, but have you ever, you know, when you get a tickly cough and you have, like, sometimes it happens when you're in a quiet conference or, you know, and you can't cough and, you know, but you have to cough because otherwise.
[00:33:42] But have you ever let it stay?
[00:33:45] And it's not, it's not pretty.
[00:33:48] Because if you don't cough, if you resist the urge to cough, that reflex to cough, and you've got this tickle in your throat, and you just let it, and it will eventually pass.
[00:33:59] But you start crying and you start getting really red-faced because you want to cough.
[00:34:05] And eventually, the thing that has made you want to cough, that irritation in your throat, does in fact pass because your body has other ways, you know, saliva or whatever, other ways of getting rid of that irritant.
[00:34:16] But your initial response to it, you override and just let it ride out.
[00:34:24] And honestly, next time you have a cough, like a tickly cough, try it.
[00:34:28] And what happens is, I found, is that you sort of get a washout.
[00:34:34] It's a very weird feeling.
[00:34:36] You sort of, it goes through you, like you were saying about the clouds in the sky.
[00:34:40] You become this, you haven't, you haven't responded to the irritant.
[00:34:46] And you come out the other side, sort of, it's a very strange feeling.
[00:34:53] It's an interesting thing.
[00:34:55] And it just, it's reminding me of this sort of trauma and not trying to run from it to just, like that irritable cough, allow it.
[00:35:05] Don't sort of over-exaggerate it, catastrophize it.
[00:35:08] Don't do that, but also don't cough it away.
[00:35:12] You know, let it sit until it passes.
[00:35:16] And, yeah, I think that's something that's quite interesting.
[00:35:21] A similar, but completely different, take on this is, I've been noticing recently, so my office is quite warm.
[00:35:36] It's like in the summer, it's quite a warm office.
[00:35:38] So I'll open the windows and then a fly will come in, right?
[00:35:42] And some of them are really noisy.
[00:35:44] And I noticed that sometimes it's really irritating.
[00:35:49] It's quite really irritating.
[00:35:51] And sometimes it isn't.
[00:35:54] And I can almost feel myself about to get irritated about it.
[00:36:03] Yeah?
[00:36:04] And just sometimes I'm able to not go with it, not follow the train of thought.
[00:36:19] And the train of thought actually is about getting up and killing the fly.
[00:36:24] Yes.
[00:36:25] The train of thought ends with, I've got to get rid of this.
[00:36:28] Well, let it go out the window.
[00:36:29] I've got to get rid of this little irritant.
[00:36:31] I've got to get it and I've got to squash it to stop it bugging me.
[00:36:35] But sometimes it's just, I'm not saying, I'm not saying it's a conscious, a really conscious decision that I'm able to choose, right?
[00:36:51] I'm not saying that I'm able to choose.
[00:36:53] But sometimes I can just notice, it's almost like not getting on the train.
[00:37:00] Yes.
[00:37:01] Yes.
[00:37:03] You know what strikes me about being an adoptee?
[00:37:09] Because obviously all these things that we're talking about are the human condition.
[00:37:14] But there's something extra about being an adoptee, you know.
[00:37:19] So we think, right?
[00:37:21] Oh, well, yeah.
[00:37:22] So we think.
[00:37:24] Yeah.
[00:37:24] Yes.
[00:37:25] Okay.
[00:37:26] Good point.
[00:37:28] Well, we don't know for sure.
[00:37:29] No, we don't.
[00:37:30] We literally don't know for sure because we don't know what it's like in somebody else's head and in somebody else's heart, you know.
[00:37:37] Well, can you have that thought experiment where what if you were brought up with, let's say, you know, for whatever reason, you know, we don't need to go into the reasons why our parents had to give us up.
[00:37:49] But let's say they didn't have that reason.
[00:37:51] And they were functioning decent people or whatever.
[00:37:56] And we remained in that family.
[00:37:58] Absolutely.
[00:37:59] With people who looked a bit like us, who had the same temperament as us.
[00:38:06] Can we have that thought experiment and can we.
[00:38:10] we can have the experiment
[00:38:11] but I'm not sure how accurate
[00:38:13] we're going to be
[00:38:15] if you get me on a good day
[00:38:17] right, if you get me on a good day
[00:38:19] it's going to be
[00:38:24] if you get me on a good day
[00:38:26] it's going to be
[00:38:27] it was alright and if you get me on a bad day
[00:38:29] it's going to be well
[00:38:31] we should stay
[00:38:33] so how accurate are we
[00:38:35] with our thought
[00:38:37] experiments
[00:38:37] because also I think a lot
[00:38:40] about being an adoptee
[00:38:43] is
[00:38:46] society's
[00:38:46] narrative as well
[00:38:48] that we must be different
[00:38:49] and we must be helped
[00:38:53] but in nature
[00:38:56] small fledglings
[00:38:58] leave the nest
[00:38:59] and go off
[00:39:00] and maybe join another little crew
[00:39:03] of birds or pack of
[00:39:05] wolves or whatever
[00:39:06] you know
[00:39:06] it's not unheard of
[00:39:08] for
[00:39:09] offspring to
[00:39:11] go from their
[00:39:12] original
[00:39:13] parents
[00:39:14] and
[00:39:15] you know
[00:39:17] why
[00:39:17] I've got arms and legs
[00:39:19] and I think that's also why
[00:39:20] apart from the fact
[00:39:21] that it's probably
[00:39:22] genetic
[00:39:23] because my
[00:39:23] ancestors were migrants
[00:39:25] from
[00:39:26] Ukraine
[00:39:29] back in the early 1900s
[00:39:31] but
[00:39:31] so I have also got
[00:39:34] wonderlust
[00:39:35] you know
[00:39:36] unlike
[00:39:36] most of my biological
[00:39:38] most of my adoptive family
[00:39:42] and
[00:39:43] but also
[00:39:44] it makes me feel
[00:39:46] when I do
[00:39:47] when I do go abroad
[00:39:48] and when I do travel
[00:39:49] it makes me feel
[00:39:51] alive
[00:39:52] I'm sure most people
[00:39:53] feel like that
[00:39:54] but it also makes me feel
[00:39:55] like
[00:39:55] it's confirming
[00:39:56] yes I can survive
[00:40:00] you know
[00:40:01] as this
[00:40:02] independent entity
[00:40:03] out in the world
[00:40:05] you know
[00:40:06] I'm not a child
[00:40:07] I don't need
[00:40:08] any more
[00:40:09] parents
[00:40:10] you know
[00:40:10] I've internalised
[00:40:11] them I think
[00:40:12] you know
[00:40:12] I've got a good sense
[00:40:13] of
[00:40:14] what a parent
[00:40:16] is in my mind
[00:40:17] you know
[00:40:18] and I can draw on that
[00:40:19] to soothe myself
[00:40:20] I definitely
[00:40:20] think that
[00:40:21] but
[00:40:25] yeah
[00:40:25] so that's an interesting concept
[00:40:27] are we different
[00:40:28] or not
[00:40:28] I mean
[00:40:29] as adoptees
[00:40:30] I think a lot of people
[00:40:31] would say yes
[00:40:34] are we more traumatised
[00:40:36] than the next person
[00:40:38] well
[00:40:39] you see
[00:40:41] I'm
[00:40:42] less
[00:40:43] I'm more interested
[00:40:45] in healing it
[00:40:46] than
[00:40:48] I am in
[00:40:49] in
[00:40:51] identifying
[00:40:53] so
[00:40:53] when I go
[00:40:55] to the
[00:40:56] somatic
[00:40:56] experiencer
[00:40:58] woman
[00:40:59] you know
[00:41:01] I'm
[00:41:02] she
[00:41:02] I
[00:41:04] I'm
[00:41:05] sure that
[00:41:06] I'm a
[00:41:06] cocktail
[00:41:07] of all my
[00:41:08] life experiences
[00:41:09] so
[00:41:11] at
[00:41:12] the
[00:41:12] at this
[00:41:13] moment
[00:41:14] I've been
[00:41:14] for the last
[00:41:15] few weeks
[00:41:16] I've been
[00:41:17] going through
[00:41:18] a few things
[00:41:21] about the death
[00:41:22] of my
[00:41:23] best friend
[00:41:25] 24 years
[00:41:26] ago
[00:41:28] so
[00:41:32] he died
[00:41:33] when his
[00:41:34] wife was
[00:41:36] out
[00:41:38] couple of
[00:41:39] months
[00:41:39] pregnant
[00:41:42] and
[00:41:46] that was
[00:41:47] 24
[00:41:47] years
[00:41:48] ago
[00:41:49] and
[00:41:49] I was
[00:41:51] I was at
[00:41:52] a party
[00:41:53] right
[00:41:53] I was
[00:41:54] so
[00:41:55] we were
[00:41:56] invited to
[00:41:57] this party
[00:41:57] and
[00:41:59] I found
[00:41:59] out
[00:42:00] that
[00:42:02] Matthew's
[00:42:03] daughter
[00:42:03] was going
[00:42:05] to be
[00:42:05] there
[00:42:06] and it
[00:42:07] would be
[00:42:07] the first
[00:42:08] time
[00:42:08] I'd met
[00:42:09] her
[00:42:09] I'm
[00:42:09] feeling
[00:42:10] it's
[00:42:11] in my
[00:42:12] body
[00:42:12] now
[00:42:14] right
[00:42:14] I'm
[00:42:15] feeling
[00:42:15] in this
[00:42:16] body
[00:42:16] now
[00:42:18] and
[00:42:20] her
[00:42:20] mum
[00:42:21] introduced
[00:42:22] me
[00:42:22] to her
[00:42:23] I
[00:42:25] shared
[00:42:26] I had
[00:42:27] a
[00:42:28] conversation
[00:42:29] brief
[00:42:30] I don't
[00:42:31] know how
[00:42:31] long
[00:42:31] I had
[00:42:32] a conversation
[00:42:33] with her
[00:42:34] it
[00:42:35] brought
[00:42:39] tears
[00:42:39] to my
[00:42:40] eyes
[00:42:40] and
[00:42:43] it
[00:42:43] had
[00:42:44] done
[00:42:44] three
[00:42:45] weeks
[00:42:45] beforehand
[00:42:46] when I'd
[00:42:47] learnt
[00:42:48] that she
[00:42:49] was going
[00:42:49] to be
[00:42:49] there
[00:42:51] at this
[00:42:52] party
[00:42:52] right
[00:42:53] and I'm
[00:42:54] feeling it
[00:42:55] now
[00:42:57] something
[00:42:58] happened on
[00:42:58] television
[00:42:59] the programme
[00:43:00] we were
[00:43:00] watching
[00:43:00] last night
[00:43:02] it was
[00:43:05] it was
[00:43:07] it was
[00:43:08] ER
[00:43:09] the
[00:43:09] Chicago
[00:43:11] set
[00:43:11] you know
[00:43:13] we call it
[00:43:14] A&E
[00:43:14] accident
[00:43:15] and they
[00:43:16] have
[00:43:16] ER
[00:43:16] and
[00:43:17] one of
[00:43:18] the
[00:43:19] one of
[00:43:20] the
[00:43:21] this
[00:43:21] this
[00:43:24] the
[00:43:25] the
[00:43:25] sorry
[00:43:26] I'm
[00:43:26] struggling
[00:43:27] on this
[00:43:29] a group
[00:43:29] of
[00:43:30] prospective
[00:43:32] medical
[00:43:33] students
[00:43:34] were being
[00:43:34] shown
[00:43:35] around
[00:43:35] the
[00:43:36] ER
[00:43:36] okay
[00:43:37] and
[00:43:38] this
[00:43:38] girl
[00:43:38] one of
[00:43:39] these
[00:43:39] girls
[00:43:39] who was
[00:43:40] being
[00:43:40] shown
[00:43:41] one of
[00:43:43] these
[00:43:43] young
[00:43:44] young
[00:43:44] people
[00:43:44] right
[00:43:45] she
[00:43:45] was
[00:43:45] I think
[00:43:46] she
[00:43:46] was
[00:43:46] 20
[00:43:47] 22
[00:43:48] something
[00:43:48] like that
[00:43:48] she
[00:43:49] was being
[00:43:50] shown
[00:43:50] around
[00:43:50] as part
[00:43:50] of
[00:43:57] a young
[00:43:57] trainee
[00:43:58] doctor
[00:43:58] showed
[00:43:59] some
[00:43:59] prospective
[00:43:59] trainee
[00:44:00] doctors
[00:44:00] and there
[00:44:01] was this
[00:44:02] girl in
[00:44:02] the group
[00:44:03] this 20
[00:44:03] year old
[00:44:04] girl
[00:44:04] and
[00:44:05] I knew
[00:44:07] that
[00:44:07] she
[00:44:08] I recognised
[00:44:09] her face
[00:44:10] but I
[00:44:11] didn't know
[00:44:12] where I recognised
[00:44:13] the face from
[00:44:14] and that
[00:44:15] it transpired
[00:44:16] that she
[00:44:17] was actually
[00:44:18] the daughter
[00:44:18] of one of
[00:44:19] the main
[00:44:20] characters
[00:44:20] who died
[00:44:21] oh
[00:44:22] goodness
[00:44:23] so it
[00:44:24] was
[00:44:24] it
[00:44:24] reflected
[00:44:25] yes
[00:44:26] and the
[00:44:28] people were
[00:44:28] very touched
[00:44:29] by it
[00:44:30] they were
[00:44:30] very touched
[00:44:31] because
[00:44:32] her father
[00:44:33] that died
[00:44:37] worked for
[00:44:38] them
[00:44:38] and they
[00:44:39] had a lot
[00:44:40] of affection
[00:44:41] for him
[00:44:41] and they
[00:44:42] had a lot
[00:44:42] of affection
[00:44:43] for his
[00:44:43] little
[00:44:43] for his
[00:44:45] daughter
[00:44:45] right
[00:44:45] and then
[00:44:46] she came
[00:44:46] back 15
[00:44:47] years later
[00:44:48] and she's
[00:44:49] going to be
[00:44:50] stepping in
[00:44:51] his
[00:44:51] right
[00:44:52] yes
[00:44:53] so this
[00:44:53] is all
[00:44:54] very
[00:44:54] this is
[00:44:55] all very
[00:44:56] similar
[00:44:56] you know
[00:44:57] young girl
[00:44:58] same
[00:44:59] sort of
[00:45:00] age
[00:45:00] death
[00:45:01] of father
[00:45:02] and this
[00:45:03] is all
[00:45:03] impacting
[00:45:04] me
[00:45:08] so is
[00:45:10] that adoption
[00:45:10] related or is
[00:45:11] that related to
[00:45:12] the death
[00:45:12] of my
[00:45:15] friend
[00:45:16] 24 years
[00:45:17] ago
[00:45:17] and who
[00:45:18] will know
[00:45:19] but I'm
[00:45:19] one cocktail
[00:45:20] I'm one cocktail
[00:45:23] we don't know
[00:45:23] how much
[00:45:24] of it
[00:45:24] is
[00:45:25] you know
[00:45:26] to what
[00:45:26] extent
[00:45:27] it's
[00:45:27] adoption
[00:45:27] trauma
[00:45:28] to what
[00:45:29] extent
[00:45:29] it's
[00:45:30] death
[00:45:30] of my
[00:45:30] friend
[00:45:30] trauma
[00:45:31] but I
[00:45:32] don't
[00:45:33] shed many
[00:45:34] tears
[00:45:35] about my
[00:45:36] adoption
[00:45:37] stuff
[00:45:38] anymore
[00:45:38] this stuff
[00:45:39] yes
[00:45:40] that's me
[00:45:41] 24 years
[00:45:42] on
[00:45:42] so
[00:45:42] so
[00:45:43] so somebody
[00:45:43] could say
[00:45:44] well that's
[00:45:44] actually just
[00:45:45] a shadow
[00:45:45] that's an echo
[00:45:46] that's a shadow
[00:45:47] of the adoption
[00:45:48] stuff
[00:45:48] you know
[00:45:49] maybe it
[00:45:50] is
[00:45:50] maybe it
[00:45:51] isn't
[00:45:52] I will
[00:45:53] never
[00:45:53] I will
[00:45:54] never
[00:45:54] know
[00:45:54] it doesn't
[00:45:54] feel like
[00:45:55] it is
[00:45:55] to me
[00:45:56] though
[00:45:56] no
[00:45:58] I like
[00:45:59] how you
[00:46:00] call it
[00:46:01] a cocktail
[00:46:02] you know
[00:46:03] you're the
[00:46:04] cocktail
[00:46:04] and because
[00:46:06] you know
[00:46:07] cocktails can
[00:46:08] be sweet
[00:46:08] and sour
[00:46:09] you know
[00:46:09] and you'll
[00:46:11] never know
[00:46:11] what's in
[00:46:12] it
[00:46:12] it's just
[00:46:12] what comes
[00:46:13] out
[00:46:13] you know
[00:46:14] with the
[00:46:15] collection
[00:46:15] of the
[00:46:16] things
[00:46:16] that make
[00:46:17] up us
[00:46:18] and
[00:46:20] it's
[00:46:21] interesting
[00:46:21] because
[00:46:21] when you're
[00:46:24] I notice
[00:46:26] that you know
[00:46:26] for example
[00:46:27] when I'm at
[00:46:27] work
[00:46:29] when I'm in
[00:46:29] groups of
[00:46:30] people
[00:46:33] different
[00:46:34] things affect
[00:46:35] me
[00:46:35] than most
[00:46:37] people
[00:46:37] you know
[00:46:38] and I'm
[00:46:39] quite an
[00:46:39] emotional
[00:46:40] person as
[00:46:40] well
[00:46:40] and I
[00:46:41] you know
[00:46:41] I mean
[00:46:42] I
[00:46:43] I mean
[00:46:44] I've always
[00:46:45] been like
[00:46:46] that
[00:46:46] I mean
[00:46:46] when I was
[00:46:46] younger
[00:46:47] I used
[00:46:48] to say
[00:46:48] to my
[00:46:48] dad
[00:46:49] or my
[00:46:50] parents
[00:46:50] you've
[00:46:51] upset
[00:46:51] me
[00:46:52] now
[00:46:52] you
[00:47:22] know
[00:47:47] always
[00:47:48] felt
[00:47:48] at
[00:47:48] odds
[00:47:49] you know
[00:47:49] I
[00:47:49] won't
[00:47:50] give
[00:47:50] the name
[00:47:51] because
[00:47:51] we're
[00:47:51] on a
[00:47:51] podcast
[00:47:52] but
[00:47:53] you know
[00:47:54] they only
[00:47:55] found out
[00:47:55] in their
[00:47:56] middle
[00:47:56] years
[00:47:57] but they
[00:47:58] always
[00:47:58] felt
[00:47:58] at odds
[00:47:59] with
[00:48:00] their
[00:48:00] family
[00:48:00] and
[00:48:01] so
[00:48:02] maybe
[00:48:03] there's
[00:48:03] something
[00:48:03] in that
[00:48:04] that
[00:48:04] we're
[00:48:04] more
[00:48:06] receptive
[00:48:07] to
[00:48:09] bodily
[00:48:09] sensations
[00:48:10] which are
[00:48:10] the basis
[00:48:11] of emotions
[00:48:12] emotions
[00:48:13] emotions
[00:48:14] you could
[00:48:14] say
[00:48:14] are
[00:48:15] the
[00:48:15] root
[00:48:16] emotions
[00:48:17] can in
[00:48:18] fact
[00:48:18] be
[00:48:18] unconscious
[00:48:19] well
[00:48:19] I mean
[00:48:20] it's a
[00:48:20] theory
[00:48:20] that's a
[00:48:21] model
[00:48:21] but from
[00:48:23] emotions
[00:48:24] come feelings
[00:48:25] and feelings
[00:48:25] are by
[00:48:26] you know
[00:48:27] you
[00:48:27] if
[00:48:27] you
[00:48:28] don't
[00:48:28] they're
[00:48:29] conscious
[00:48:29] because
[00:48:30] you feel
[00:48:30] them
[00:48:31] but
[00:48:31] emotions
[00:48:32] are
[00:48:33] emotive
[00:48:34] they move
[00:48:35] you
[00:48:35] and you
[00:48:36] can be
[00:48:36] moved
[00:48:37] by things
[00:48:37] that are
[00:48:38] not
[00:48:38] conscious
[00:48:38] but they
[00:48:39] become
[00:48:39] feelings
[00:48:40] and so
[00:48:42] possibly
[00:48:43] we are
[00:48:44] more
[00:48:45] receptive
[00:48:46] to those
[00:48:47] underlying
[00:48:48] emotions
[00:48:48] that become
[00:48:49] feelings
[00:48:49] as a
[00:48:50] way to
[00:48:51] navigate
[00:48:53] an
[00:48:54] environment
[00:48:54] that
[00:48:55] is at
[00:48:56] odds
[00:48:56] with our
[00:48:57] temperament
[00:48:57] I don't
[00:48:57] know
[00:49:00] I just
[00:49:01] sit
[00:49:02] with the
[00:49:03] somatic
[00:49:03] experience
[00:49:04] a woman
[00:49:05] and cry
[00:49:07] I don't
[00:49:08] mean
[00:49:08] for the
[00:49:09] whole
[00:49:09] hour
[00:49:10] but
[00:49:10] I'm
[00:49:11] not
[00:49:12] judging
[00:49:14] I'm
[00:49:14] not
[00:49:15] judging
[00:49:15] I'm
[00:49:16] not
[00:49:16] naming
[00:49:16] the
[00:49:16] feeling
[00:49:17] I'm
[00:49:18] not
[00:49:18] judging
[00:49:19] the
[00:49:19] feeling
[00:49:19] I'm
[00:49:19] just
[00:49:20] bringing
[00:49:20] it
[00:49:20] in
[00:49:20] I mean
[00:49:21] like
[00:49:21] I've
[00:49:22] noticed
[00:49:22] that
[00:49:23] you know
[00:49:24] I can
[00:49:25] get
[00:49:25] that
[00:49:26] the hairs
[00:49:27] on the
[00:49:28] back of
[00:49:28] my arm
[00:49:30] can stand
[00:49:31] up
[00:49:32] and I
[00:49:33] can call
[00:49:33] that
[00:49:33] terror
[00:49:34] and I
[00:49:35] also can
[00:49:37] call it
[00:49:38] excitement
[00:49:38] yes
[00:49:40] the same
[00:49:40] so
[00:49:41] like
[00:49:42] the
[00:49:43] it's a
[00:49:44] it's a new
[00:49:45] area that
[00:49:45] I'm looking
[00:49:46] at at the
[00:49:47] moment is
[00:49:48] the
[00:49:49] judging
[00:49:49] of our
[00:49:50] emotions
[00:49:51] and
[00:49:52] it's
[00:49:53] it's
[00:49:54] new
[00:49:54] for me
[00:49:54] to see
[00:49:55] that
[00:49:59] that
[00:50:00] it's
[00:50:01] not
[00:50:01] it's
[00:50:01] not
[00:50:02] consistent
[00:50:03] so
[00:50:03] the
[00:50:04] same
[00:50:04] physical
[00:50:05] reaction
[00:50:06] can be
[00:50:07] named
[00:50:08] one
[00:50:08] thing
[00:50:08] and named
[00:50:09] another
[00:50:09] so
[00:50:10] I
[00:50:10] often
[00:50:10] have
[00:50:11] it
[00:50:11] on
[00:50:11] I
[00:50:11] also
[00:50:12] I
[00:50:12] often
[00:50:12] get
[00:50:12] it
[00:50:13] on
[00:50:13] the
[00:50:13] podcast
[00:50:14] right
[00:50:14] so
[00:50:14] we
[00:50:21] in
[00:50:22] the
[00:50:23] conversation
[00:50:24] when
[00:50:24] we're
[00:50:25] going
[00:50:25] really
[00:50:25] when
[00:50:26] we're
[00:50:27] going
[00:50:27] really
[00:50:28] deep
[00:50:28] or
[00:50:28] there's
[00:50:28] a new
[00:50:29] idea
[00:50:29] coming
[00:50:29] in
[00:50:30] or
[00:50:30] there's
[00:50:31] a
[00:50:31] new
[00:50:31] thing
[00:50:31] that's
[00:50:32] being
[00:50:32] revealed
[00:50:32] to
[00:50:33] me
[00:50:33] and
[00:50:34] I'm
[00:50:35] really
[00:50:36] touched
[00:50:37] by
[00:50:38] something
[00:50:38] like
[00:50:39] I was
[00:50:40] last night
[00:50:41] with
[00:50:41] watching
[00:50:42] ER
[00:50:43] and
[00:50:43] this
[00:50:44] the
[00:50:45] daughter
[00:50:48] whose
[00:50:48] dad
[00:50:49] died
[00:50:50] isn't
[00:50:51] and
[00:50:51] I
[00:50:54] could
[00:50:55] call
[00:50:56] the
[00:50:57] hairs
[00:50:58] on the
[00:50:58] back
[00:50:59] of my
[00:51:02] excitement
[00:51:04] or
[00:51:05] terror
[00:51:08] or
[00:51:13] anything
[00:51:16] it's
[00:51:17] how much
[00:51:19] are we
[00:51:20] naming
[00:51:20] how much
[00:51:20] are we
[00:51:21] judging
[00:51:21] how much
[00:51:21] am I
[00:51:22] judging
[00:51:22] my
[00:51:23] emotions
[00:51:24] how much
[00:51:24] am I
[00:51:24] judging
[00:51:26] my
[00:51:28] sensations
[00:51:30] it's
[00:51:31] interesting
[00:51:31] because
[00:51:32] there's
[00:51:32] quite a
[00:51:33] fierce
[00:51:34] debate
[00:51:34] at the
[00:51:35] moment
[00:51:35] in the
[00:51:35] field
[00:51:36] of
[00:51:36] affective
[00:51:37] neuroscience
[00:51:38] there's
[00:51:39] people
[00:51:40] like
[00:51:40] Mark
[00:51:41] Soames
[00:51:42] a
[00:51:43] famous
[00:51:44] neuropsychologist
[00:51:45] and psychoanalyst
[00:51:46] from
[00:51:47] South Africa
[00:51:48] from Cape
[00:51:48] Town
[00:51:49] who
[00:51:50] is
[00:51:52] closely
[00:51:53] aligned
[00:51:53] with
[00:51:54] Jacques
[00:51:54] the late
[00:51:55] brilliant
[00:51:56] Jacques
[00:51:57] Panksepp's
[00:51:57] work
[00:51:58] primary
[00:51:59] processes
[00:52:00] in emotion
[00:52:01] and then
[00:52:02] you've got
[00:52:02] people like
[00:52:05] Lisa
[00:52:05] Feldman
[00:52:06] Barrett
[00:52:06] in the
[00:52:07] States
[00:52:07] and they
[00:52:08] differ
[00:52:09] in that
[00:52:11] some people
[00:52:12] believe that
[00:52:14] you've got
[00:52:15] a small
[00:52:16] number of
[00:52:17] primary
[00:52:17] processes
[00:52:18] in the
[00:52:19] brain
[00:52:19] so fear
[00:52:20] rage
[00:52:21] panic
[00:52:22] care
[00:52:23] play
[00:52:24] is another
[00:52:25] emotion
[00:52:26] that we
[00:52:27] need
[00:52:30] joy
[00:52:31] I think
[00:52:31] is
[00:52:31] the
[00:52:32] seven
[00:52:32] primary
[00:52:33] processes
[00:52:34] that Jacques
[00:52:34] Panksepp
[00:52:34] talks about
[00:52:35] and Mark
[00:52:37] Soames
[00:52:37] also
[00:52:38] advocates
[00:52:38] for that
[00:52:39] and they
[00:52:40] argue
[00:52:40] that these
[00:52:41] are based
[00:52:42] in the
[00:52:43] brainstem
[00:52:43] in a part
[00:52:44] of the
[00:52:44] brain
[00:52:44] called
[00:52:44] the
[00:52:44] periaqueduct
[00:52:45] or grey
[00:52:46] that you
[00:52:47] have
[00:52:47] these
[00:52:48] small
[00:52:49] number
[00:52:49] of
[00:52:49] universal
[00:52:50] primary
[00:52:51] processes
[00:52:51] they're
[00:52:52] also
[00:52:52] secondary
[00:52:53] and
[00:52:53] tertiary
[00:52:53] but
[00:52:54] they're
[00:52:55] the same
[00:52:56] throughout
[00:52:56] the animal
[00:52:58] kingdom
[00:52:58] and their
[00:52:59] sect
[00:53:00] you have
[00:53:01] again this
[00:53:04] is theoretical
[00:53:04] right
[00:53:05] because I'll
[00:53:05] say in a
[00:53:06] moment the
[00:53:06] opposite
[00:53:06] that you
[00:53:07] have these
[00:53:08] basic
[00:53:09] primary
[00:53:09] emotions
[00:53:10] that every
[00:53:11] animal
[00:53:12] organism
[00:53:14] has
[00:53:15] and then
[00:53:16] you can
[00:53:17] elaborate
[00:53:17] on them
[00:53:18] with
[00:53:18] subsequent
[00:53:19] labelling
[00:53:20] but then
[00:53:21] people like
[00:53:21] Lisa
[00:53:22] Feldman
[00:53:22] Barrett
[00:53:22] and the
[00:53:22] cognitive
[00:53:23] labelling
[00:53:23] theorists
[00:53:24] believe
[00:53:24] that
[00:53:26] you've
[00:53:27] just
[00:53:27] got
[00:53:27] arousal
[00:53:28] pleasure
[00:53:29] and
[00:53:29] unpleasure
[00:53:30] that's
[00:53:31] it
[00:53:31] at the
[00:53:32] brainstem
[00:53:32] level
[00:53:33] you've
[00:53:33] got
[00:53:33] heightened
[00:53:35] stimulation
[00:53:36] that can
[00:53:38] be high
[00:53:39] and it
[00:53:39] can be
[00:53:39] high
[00:53:40] pleasant
[00:53:40] or high
[00:53:41] unpleasant
[00:53:41] but then
[00:53:42] depending on
[00:53:43] what's
[00:53:43] going on
[00:53:43] in your
[00:53:44] environment
[00:53:44] in the
[00:53:45] context
[00:53:45] you will
[00:53:46] then label
[00:53:47] it
[00:53:47] subsequently
[00:53:48] like you
[00:53:49] said
[00:53:50] excitement
[00:53:51] or
[00:53:52] fear
[00:53:55] and
[00:53:55] it's
[00:53:56] difficult
[00:53:56] because both
[00:53:57] in my
[00:53:58] mind
[00:53:58] are quite
[00:53:59] convincing
[00:54:01] you
[00:54:03] you know
[00:54:04] you always
[00:54:05] you will
[00:54:05] always feel
[00:54:06] joy
[00:54:08] you will
[00:54:08] always be
[00:54:09] I mean
[00:54:09] these like
[00:54:09] drives
[00:54:10] these primary
[00:54:11] processes
[00:54:11] actually
[00:54:12] you will
[00:54:12] always be
[00:54:13] driven
[00:54:14] to
[00:54:14] play
[00:54:15] animals
[00:54:16] play
[00:54:17] to get
[00:54:17] hierarchy
[00:54:18] you know
[00:54:19] to learn
[00:54:20] hierarchy
[00:54:20] and there's
[00:54:21] this idea
[00:54:22] that
[00:54:22] there's
[00:54:23] I can't
[00:54:23] remember
[00:54:23] what the
[00:54:24] ratio is
[00:54:24] but something
[00:54:25] like
[00:54:25] 80-20
[00:54:26] or 60-40
[00:54:27] that
[00:54:28] when you're
[00:54:29] playing
[00:54:29] as long
[00:54:30] as you
[00:54:30] keep that
[00:54:31] ratio
[00:54:31] that
[00:54:32] you play
[00:54:33] first
[00:54:33] and then
[00:54:34] somebody
[00:54:34] wins
[00:54:34] 60%
[00:54:35] of the
[00:54:35] time
[00:54:35] and you've
[00:54:35] got
[00:54:36] the
[00:54:36] it's
[00:54:36] like
[00:54:36] master
[00:54:37] and slave
[00:54:37] but then
[00:54:38] you have
[00:54:38] to switch
[00:54:38] it
[00:54:39] and if
[00:54:40] you never
[00:54:40] let the
[00:54:41] other person
[00:54:41] win
[00:54:42] sometimes
[00:54:42] that
[00:54:43] then
[00:54:43] it
[00:54:43] ends
[00:54:43] in tears
[00:54:44] so there's
[00:54:45] this
[00:54:45] biological
[00:54:46] basis
[00:54:47] of play
[00:54:47] that every
[00:54:48] animal
[00:54:48] needs
[00:54:49] to
[00:54:49] understand
[00:54:50] socialising
[00:54:51] stuff
[00:54:51] but then
[00:54:53] my
[00:54:53] counter
[00:54:54] argument
[00:54:54] is that
[00:54:55] you've
[00:54:55] only
[00:54:55] got
[00:54:55] a
[00:54:55] small
[00:54:56] number
[00:54:56] of
[00:54:56] bodily
[00:54:57] responses
[00:54:59] heart rate
[00:55:00] like you
[00:55:00] said
[00:55:00] hair
[00:55:01] raising
[00:55:03] I can't
[00:55:04] remember
[00:55:04] what the
[00:55:04] actual
[00:55:05] biological
[00:55:05] name
[00:55:06] for that
[00:55:06] is
[00:55:06] a more
[00:55:09] medical
[00:55:09] term
[00:55:10] for it
[00:55:12] you know
[00:55:13] pupil
[00:55:14] dilation
[00:55:14] sweating
[00:55:15] all that
[00:55:15] you know
[00:55:16] there's
[00:55:16] only about
[00:55:16] there's a
[00:55:17] very few
[00:55:17] things that
[00:55:18] your body
[00:55:18] will actually
[00:55:18] do
[00:55:19] but we've
[00:55:20] got
[00:55:21] loads
[00:55:24] of emotions
[00:55:26] definitely
[00:55:26] more than
[00:55:27] seven
[00:55:27] you know
[00:55:29] so
[00:55:31] referring
[00:55:32] back to
[00:55:34] could it
[00:55:35] be
[00:55:35] and again
[00:55:36] whether it's
[00:55:37] worthwhile
[00:55:38] describing this
[00:55:39] or not
[00:55:39] could it
[00:55:39] be
[00:55:39] that
[00:55:40] as an
[00:55:41] adoptee
[00:55:41] that's
[00:55:42] at odds
[00:55:43] with the
[00:55:43] environment
[00:55:44] you are
[00:55:46] we are
[00:55:47] good at
[00:55:48] creating
[00:55:48] narratives
[00:55:49] and
[00:55:50] labelling
[00:55:50] things
[00:55:51] more than
[00:55:52] the average
[00:55:53] person
[00:55:53] because
[00:55:55] we're at
[00:55:56] odds
[00:55:56] with that
[00:55:57] emotional
[00:55:58] context
[00:55:58] that temperamental
[00:55:59] context
[00:56:00] so
[00:56:01] maybe that's
[00:56:02] why we are
[00:56:02] good
[00:56:03] you know
[00:56:03] good at
[00:56:06] you know
[00:56:07] making these
[00:56:08] narrative stories
[00:56:09] I know
[00:56:10] a few
[00:56:11] adoptees
[00:56:14] you know
[00:56:15] from my
[00:56:16] background
[00:56:18] and
[00:56:20] yeah
[00:56:22] we are
[00:56:23] it's true
[00:56:24] that we are
[00:56:24] different
[00:56:25] I mean
[00:56:25] I'm a bit
[00:56:26] more
[00:56:27] cerebral
[00:56:27] than
[00:56:28] the few
[00:56:29] people
[00:56:29] that I
[00:56:29] know
[00:56:30] from my
[00:56:30] home
[00:56:30] that are
[00:56:32] also
[00:56:32] adopted
[00:56:33] but they
[00:56:34] do also
[00:56:35] they have
[00:56:35] also
[00:56:36] those people
[00:56:36] that I
[00:56:36] know
[00:56:37] from my
[00:56:37] hometown
[00:56:38] have
[00:56:39] struggled
[00:56:41] to fit
[00:56:42] in
[00:56:42] and
[00:56:43] they're
[00:56:43] not
[00:56:43] very
[00:56:43] conformist
[00:56:44] either
[00:56:47] so
[00:56:48] yeah
[00:56:49] it's
[00:56:49] an
[00:56:49] interesting
[00:56:50] thing
[00:56:51] who wants
[00:56:52] to be
[00:56:53] a she
[00:56:53] you know
[00:56:54] who wants
[00:56:56] to be
[00:56:56] a she
[00:56:56] some
[00:56:58] people do
[00:56:59] I don't
[00:57:00] neither
[00:57:01] do I
[00:57:03] the other
[00:57:04] thing I was
[00:57:05] thinking
[00:57:05] is like
[00:57:05] we
[00:57:06] I think
[00:57:07] it's
[00:57:08] for me
[00:57:08] it's
[00:57:09] fighting
[00:57:09] the
[00:57:11] sensations
[00:57:11] or fighting
[00:57:12] the feelings
[00:57:13] that's the
[00:57:14] challenge
[00:57:15] or judging
[00:57:15] them
[00:57:15] fighting
[00:57:16] them
[00:57:16] judging
[00:57:17] them
[00:57:17] you know
[00:57:17] so
[00:57:17] I used
[00:57:18] to worry
[00:57:19] about
[00:57:19] worrying
[00:57:19] right
[00:57:20] and then
[00:57:20] worry
[00:57:21] about
[00:57:21] worrying
[00:57:21] about
[00:57:21] worrying
[00:57:22] and then
[00:57:23] if we go
[00:57:25] to that
[00:57:25] extreme
[00:57:25] and look
[00:57:26] at fear
[00:57:26] we can
[00:57:28] look at
[00:57:28] fear
[00:57:28] like
[00:57:28] people
[00:57:29] say
[00:57:29] well I
[00:57:29] don't
[00:57:29] like
[00:57:30] I don't
[00:57:31] like
[00:57:32] being
[00:57:32] afraid
[00:57:32] well
[00:57:33] why
[00:57:33] do you
[00:57:33] go on
[00:57:34] roller
[00:57:34] coasters
[00:57:34] then
[00:57:35] you know
[00:57:35] like
[00:57:37] yeah because
[00:57:38] they're actually
[00:57:39] dangerous
[00:57:39] I used to
[00:57:40] love
[00:57:40] roller
[00:57:40] coasters
[00:57:41] until
[00:57:41] all these
[00:57:42] accidents
[00:57:44] that you
[00:57:44] know
[00:57:44] happened
[00:57:45] quite
[00:57:46] scary
[00:57:46] yeah
[00:57:47] I don't
[00:57:48] watch
[00:57:48] much
[00:57:49] news
[00:57:49] so
[00:57:49] it's
[00:57:50] gone
[00:57:50] past
[00:57:50] me
[00:57:51] by
[00:57:52] yeah
[00:57:55] and
[00:57:58] yeah
[00:57:59] I just
[00:58:01] yeah
[00:58:01] you've
[00:58:02] sort of
[00:58:03] fed me
[00:58:04] a curveball
[00:58:04] there
[00:58:05] because
[00:58:05] about
[00:58:06] whether
[00:58:06] or not
[00:58:07] we are
[00:58:07] actually
[00:58:08] any
[00:58:08] different
[00:58:08] to
[00:58:09] the
[00:58:10] next
[00:58:10] person
[00:58:10] and
[00:58:11] I
[00:58:11] mean
[00:58:12] does
[00:58:13] it
[00:58:13] matter
[00:58:13] I
[00:58:13] mean
[00:58:14] like
[00:58:15] are
[00:58:15] we
[00:58:16] traumatised
[00:58:16] and are
[00:58:17] we
[00:58:17] are
[00:58:18] we
[00:58:18] actually
[00:58:18] traumatised
[00:58:19] I mean
[00:58:19] do you
[00:58:20] feel
[00:58:20] do you
[00:58:21] personally
[00:58:21] feel
[00:58:21] I mean
[00:58:23] do you
[00:58:23] well two
[00:58:24] questions
[00:58:24] do you
[00:58:25] feel
[00:58:25] traumatised
[00:58:26] firstly
[00:58:27] and secondly
[00:58:28] are you
[00:58:28] traumatised
[00:58:29] by your
[00:58:30] adoption
[00:58:30] or just
[00:58:30] by life
[00:58:31] in general
[00:58:34] well
[00:58:35] I
[00:58:35] would say
[00:58:36] that
[00:58:37] I
[00:58:38] feel
[00:58:39] so
[00:58:41] something
[00:58:42] happened
[00:58:43] today
[00:58:44] like
[00:58:44] walking
[00:58:45] the girls
[00:58:46] the dogs
[00:58:46] this morning
[00:58:48] I
[00:58:49] had
[00:58:49] a
[00:58:50] shock
[00:58:51] reaction
[00:58:52] with
[00:58:53] when
[00:58:55] Rosie
[00:58:56] suddenly
[00:58:56] appeared
[00:58:57] out of
[00:58:57] this
[00:58:57] suddenly
[00:58:58] appeared
[00:58:58] to me
[00:58:59] I
[00:58:59] didn't
[00:58:59] think
[00:58:59] she
[00:58:59] was
[00:58:59] there
[00:59:00] I
[00:59:00] jumped
[00:59:00] right
[00:59:01] so
[00:59:02] you
[00:59:02] could
[00:59:02] say
[00:59:02] that's
[00:59:02] a
[00:59:03] trauma
[00:59:03] response
[00:59:04] well
[00:59:04] Simon
[00:59:04] you
[00:59:05] are
[00:59:06] you
[00:59:06] know
[00:59:06] you
[00:59:07] you're
[00:59:07] easily
[00:59:08] triggered
[00:59:08] da da da da
[00:59:10] da da da
[00:59:10] who knows
[00:59:11] right
[00:59:12] have I
[00:59:13] have I
[00:59:15] felt
[00:59:15] I
[00:59:17] would say
[00:59:17] I
[00:59:18] definitely
[00:59:18] felt
[00:59:20] traumatised
[00:59:23] yeah
[00:59:24] but
[00:59:25] it's
[00:59:25] the
[00:59:26] well
[00:59:27] I've
[00:59:27] felt
[00:59:28] but
[00:59:28] am I
[00:59:29] my
[00:59:29] feelings
[00:59:31] right
[00:59:32] so the
[00:59:32] cocktail
[00:59:32] the
[00:59:34] usual
[00:59:35] place
[00:59:35] that I
[00:59:36] go
[00:59:36] with the
[00:59:38] cocktail
[00:59:38] metaphor
[00:59:40] is
[00:59:41] that
[00:59:41] trauma
[00:59:43] is a
[00:59:43] toxic
[00:59:44] cocktail
[00:59:44] of
[00:59:45] fear
[00:59:45] shame
[00:59:46] anger
[00:59:48] anger
[00:59:51] and
[00:59:54] we're
[00:59:55] the
[00:59:55] cocktail
[00:59:56] glass
[00:59:57] not
[00:59:58] the
[00:59:58] contents
[00:59:59] yes
[01:00:00] and
[01:00:01] we
[01:00:02] we
[01:00:04] mix
[01:00:05] our
[01:00:06] we
[01:00:06] mix
[01:00:08] ourselves
[01:00:10] we
[01:00:11] mix
[01:00:12] feelings
[01:00:12] with
[01:00:13] identity
[01:00:13] we
[01:00:14] say
[01:00:15] I
[01:00:15] am
[01:00:16] traumatised
[01:00:20] you know
[01:00:22] I'm
[01:00:22] traumatised
[01:00:22] there's a
[01:00:24] word
[01:00:24] missing
[01:00:24] there
[01:00:25] for me
[01:00:25] I am
[01:00:26] feeling
[01:00:26] traumatised
[01:00:27] right
[01:00:28] so
[01:00:28] I'm
[01:00:29] very
[01:00:30] interested
[01:00:31] in
[01:00:31] separating
[01:00:32] the
[01:00:34] screen
[01:00:36] from
[01:00:36] the
[01:00:36] film
[01:00:37] the
[01:00:38] sky
[01:00:38] from
[01:00:39] the
[01:00:39] cloud
[01:00:40] because
[01:00:41] disidentifying
[01:00:42] from
[01:00:43] the
[01:00:43] trauma
[01:00:43] is
[01:00:46] going
[01:00:47] back
[01:00:47] you know
[01:00:47] using
[01:00:48] the
[01:00:48] boxer
[01:00:48] metaphor
[01:00:49] moving
[01:00:51] your
[01:00:51] back
[01:00:51] from
[01:00:52] the
[01:00:52] trauma
[01:00:52] having
[01:00:53] more
[01:00:54] space
[01:00:54] between
[01:00:55] me
[01:00:55] and
[01:00:56] my
[01:00:57] feelings
[01:00:57] is
[01:00:59] to
[01:00:59] me
[01:01:00] what
[01:01:00] that
[01:01:01] that
[01:01:01] that's
[01:01:02] a
[01:01:03] crucial
[01:01:04] part
[01:01:04] of
[01:01:05] the
[01:01:05] healing
[01:01:05] you know
[01:01:06] yes
[01:01:06] I have
[01:01:07] felt
[01:01:08] that
[01:01:10] I
[01:01:11] felt
[01:01:11] that
[01:01:13] my
[01:01:14] feelings
[01:01:15] can
[01:01:15] are
[01:01:15] going
[01:01:15] to
[01:01:16] engulf
[01:01:16] me
[01:01:19] you know
[01:01:20] it's
[01:01:20] like
[01:01:20] like
[01:01:20] like
[01:01:21] I
[01:01:21] absolutely
[01:01:22] love
[01:01:22] this
[01:01:23] analogy
[01:01:24] of the
[01:01:25] cocktail
[01:01:25] glass
[01:01:25] because
[01:01:26] when
[01:01:26] you're
[01:01:26] talking
[01:01:26] now I
[01:01:27] can
[01:01:27] imagine
[01:01:28] this
[01:01:28] very
[01:01:30] it's
[01:01:31] dynamic
[01:01:31] the
[01:01:32] liquid
[01:01:32] in
[01:01:32] this
[01:01:32] glass
[01:01:33] and
[01:01:33] it's
[01:01:33] going
[01:01:33] to
[01:01:34] not
[01:01:34] only
[01:01:35] foam
[01:01:36] over
[01:01:36] the
[01:01:36] top
[01:01:37] but
[01:01:38] also
[01:01:38] crack
[01:01:39] the
[01:01:39] glass
[01:01:40] and
[01:01:40] it's
[01:01:40] our
[01:01:41] we
[01:01:41] have
[01:01:42] to
[01:01:42] find
[01:01:43] a
[01:01:43] way
[01:01:44] or
[01:01:45] maybe
[01:01:45] the
[01:01:45] glass
[01:01:46] can't
[01:01:46] crack
[01:01:46] if
[01:01:46] it's
[01:01:47] like
[01:01:47] the
[01:01:47] sky
[01:01:47] but
[01:01:49] it's
[01:01:49] getting
[01:01:50] that
[01:01:56] inside
[01:01:57] the
[01:01:57] glass
[01:01:57] there's
[01:01:58] the
[01:01:58] glass
[01:01:58] and
[01:01:59] there's
[01:01:59] the
[01:01:59] thing
[01:02:00] looking
[01:02:01] at
[01:02:01] the
[01:02:01] glass
[01:02:01] so
[01:02:02] it's
[01:02:03] yeah
[01:02:04] so
[01:02:04] we're
[01:02:05] the
[01:02:05] king
[01:02:05] and
[01:02:05] queen
[01:02:06] of
[01:02:06] over
[01:02:06] thinkers
[01:02:06] right
[01:02:07] you
[01:02:07] can
[01:02:07] take
[01:02:08] these
[01:02:08] metaphors
[01:02:09] and
[01:02:09] they go
[01:02:09] what
[01:02:10] I'm
[01:02:11] talking
[01:02:11] about
[01:02:12] here
[01:02:12] is
[01:02:13] you
[01:02:13] talked
[01:02:13] about
[01:02:16] peace
[01:02:18] yes
[01:02:18] talked
[01:02:19] about
[01:02:19] peace
[01:02:20] so
[01:02:21] for
[01:02:21] me
[01:02:22] the
[01:02:23] peace
[01:02:23] is
[01:02:24] in
[01:02:25] the
[01:02:25] sky
[01:02:26] metaphor
[01:02:27] right
[01:02:28] the
[01:02:29] burdens
[01:02:30] are
[01:02:31] the
[01:02:32] storm
[01:02:32] clouds
[01:02:33] we
[01:02:35] are
[01:02:36] the
[01:02:36] space
[01:02:36] in
[01:02:37] which
[01:02:37] our
[01:02:39] feelings
[01:02:41] arise
[01:02:43] not
[01:02:44] the
[01:02:45] feelings
[01:02:45] themselves
[01:02:47] and
[01:02:48] opening
[01:02:49] up
[01:02:49] that
[01:02:50] gap
[01:02:50] between
[01:02:51] who
[01:02:51] we
[01:02:52] are
[01:02:52] and
[01:02:53] how
[01:02:53] we
[01:02:53] feel
[01:02:54] is
[01:02:57] not
[01:02:57] as
[01:02:57] nitpicky
[01:02:58] to
[01:02:58] me
[01:02:59] it
[01:02:59] isn't
[01:03:00] it
[01:03:00] is
[01:03:00] not
[01:03:01] as
[01:03:01] nitpicky
[01:03:02] to
[01:03:02] me
[01:03:02] because
[01:03:03] that's
[01:03:03] the
[01:03:03] breathing
[01:03:04] space
[01:03:04] we're
[01:03:05] breathing
[01:03:05] space
[01:03:06] like
[01:03:06] we're
[01:03:07] you know
[01:03:08] we can
[01:03:09] talk
[01:03:09] about
[01:03:10] our
[01:03:11] fight
[01:03:12] and
[01:03:12] flight
[01:03:12] and
[01:03:12] our
[01:03:13] amygdala
[01:03:14] being
[01:03:14] flooded
[01:03:15] and
[01:03:15] all
[01:03:15] that
[01:03:16] sort
[01:03:16] of
[01:03:16] stuff
[01:03:16] right
[01:03:17] you know
[01:03:17] cortisol
[01:03:18] and
[01:03:19] all
[01:03:19] this
[01:03:19] sort
[01:03:19] of
[01:03:19] stuff
[01:03:19] well
[01:03:20] I'm
[01:03:21] opening
[01:03:22] a bit
[01:03:22] of
[01:03:22] space
[01:03:23] between
[01:03:23] that
[01:03:24] and
[01:03:24] I'm
[01:03:24] opening
[01:03:24] a little
[01:03:25] bit
[01:03:25] more
[01:03:25] space
[01:03:26] from
[01:03:26] that
[01:03:27] and
[01:03:28] identifying
[01:03:29] with
[01:03:30] the
[01:03:30] clouds
[01:03:30] and
[01:03:31] the
[01:03:32] clouds
[01:03:32] aren't
[01:03:32] bothered
[01:03:33] by
[01:03:33] the
[01:03:33] rain
[01:03:34] yes
[01:03:35] yes
[01:03:36] and
[01:03:39] it is
[01:03:40] about
[01:03:40] finding
[01:03:40] peace
[01:03:41] and
[01:03:41] it's
[01:03:41] interesting
[01:03:42] isn't
[01:03:42] it
[01:03:42] because
[01:03:43] peace
[01:03:44] will
[01:03:44] come
[01:03:45] we
[01:03:45] are
[01:03:45] the
[01:03:45] peace
[01:03:46] yeah
[01:03:47] it's
[01:03:47] already
[01:03:48] there
[01:03:48] I mean
[01:03:49] I remember
[01:03:49] I love
[01:03:51] Buddhist
[01:03:53] philosophy
[01:03:54] and
[01:03:54] Buddhist
[01:03:55] meditation
[01:03:55] I don't
[01:03:56] do as
[01:03:56] much
[01:04:04] place
[01:04:04] near
[01:04:05] Finsbury
[01:04:05] Park
[01:04:06] or
[01:04:07] Islington
[01:04:07] actually
[01:04:08] and
[01:04:10] they
[01:04:10] described
[01:04:11] and it
[01:04:11] stuck
[01:04:11] with me
[01:04:12] ever
[01:04:12] since
[01:04:13] this
[01:04:14] sense
[01:04:14] of
[01:04:15] having
[01:04:15] a
[01:04:15] very
[01:04:17] pure
[01:04:18] pole
[01:04:20] if you
[01:04:20] like
[01:04:21] of
[01:04:21] metal
[01:04:22] of pure
[01:04:22] smooth
[01:04:23] solid
[01:04:25] metal
[01:04:28] titanium
[01:04:29] right in
[01:04:31] the core
[01:04:31] of you
[01:04:32] that
[01:04:34] it will
[01:04:34] never
[01:04:35] bend
[01:04:35] it will
[01:04:35] never
[01:04:36] change
[01:04:36] it's
[01:04:37] your
[01:04:37] core
[01:04:37] and
[01:04:38] it's
[01:04:38] brilliantly
[01:04:39] clean
[01:04:40] and clear
[01:04:40] and
[01:04:41] always
[01:04:42] will
[01:04:42] be
[01:04:42] all
[01:04:42] throughout
[01:04:42] your
[01:04:42] life
[01:04:43] and
[01:04:44] I
[01:04:44] like
[01:04:44] that
[01:04:44] and
[01:04:45] it is
[01:04:45] peace
[01:04:46] and it
[01:04:46] is
[01:04:46] purity
[01:04:47] and all
[01:04:47] these
[01:04:48] lovely
[01:04:48] words
[01:04:50] and
[01:04:51] you can
[01:04:52] always
[01:04:52] tap
[01:04:53] into
[01:04:53] that
[01:04:53] because
[01:04:54] that
[01:04:54] is
[01:04:54] always
[01:04:55] you
[01:04:55] that
[01:04:55] will
[01:04:55] never
[01:04:56] change
[01:04:56] no
[01:04:56] matter
[01:04:56] whether
[01:04:57] you
[01:04:58] were
[01:04:58] removed
[01:04:58] or
[01:04:59] placed
[01:04:59] in
[01:05:00] a
[01:05:00] different
[01:05:00] the
[01:05:02] core
[01:05:03] of
[01:05:03] you
[01:05:03] will
[01:05:03] always
[01:05:03] be
[01:05:04] the
[01:05:04] same
[01:05:04] and
[01:05:05] when
[01:05:06] you
[01:05:06] stop
[01:05:07] and
[01:05:07] you
[01:05:09] allow
[01:05:09] yourself
[01:05:10] to
[01:05:10] think
[01:05:10] about
[01:05:11] that
[01:05:11] and
[01:05:11] feel
[01:05:12] it
[01:05:12] actually
[01:05:13] feel
[01:05:13] that
[01:05:13] because
[01:05:14] no
[01:05:14] matter
[01:05:15] and it
[01:05:15] does
[01:05:15] go back
[01:05:16] to what
[01:05:16] you
[01:05:16] said
[01:05:17] about
[01:05:17] the
[01:06:02] change
[01:06:34] me the gravitas to um to do these thought experiments to observe them from afar to look
[01:06:41] at those three concepts that I am grappling with myself and uh and that is peaceful actually
[01:06:51] that's really nice for me at least that core of me that is always there um that can hold these
[01:06:59] conversations and that can uh yeah it's it's it's quite quite fascinating and and you know the the
[01:07:07] boxing ring the pole is the boxing ring you know the thing that's the boxes are always that and and
[01:07:14] what's also interesting and and this you know uh I'm thinking about sense of self the sense of
[01:07:22] self or our sense of self or the concept of self this is myself that you are yourself
[01:07:28] but there's a boundary and people that can't and just you know people that get enmeshed that becomes
[01:07:36] difficult psychiatrically when you can't determine me not me and the boundary of the self is a vector
[01:07:44] in other words it it ends at a certain point so the glass ends I mean the sky you could you know a
[01:07:53] little bit more complicated but um the the boxing ring ends there's only so far that the boxes can
[01:07:59] retreat to until they have to stop you know because there's a boundary so that there's a boundary of that
[01:08:06] of that sense of self which I think is also important for healing I think the piece is more
[01:08:16] the the the pieces is more important than the metaphor we're using lots of different we are and
[01:08:29] it and when metaphors you can spin a metaphor a million different ways
[01:08:33] mm-hmm I think what you're alluding to for me is the on your steel core it is this is the same as mine
[01:08:49] mm-hmm it's it's the bit that is undamaged untainted mm-hmm unwoundable and forever will be
[01:09:03] mm-hmm so the the best one I've come up with so far on this is the rock paper scissors game
[01:09:13] mm right so go on can we quickly go on ready work no can we do it one we do yeah one two three
[01:09:25] three okay right so um what have you got I can't say I've got I've got I've got I've got stone
[01:09:34] you've got scissors right so I win yes you crush my scissors right uh well yeah your your scissors
[01:09:44] can't I'm glad you did it this way around okay your scissors cannot
[01:09:50] cut cut cut my stone no okay so the scissors
[01:09:57] are the are Nancy Berrier's wound allegedly wound making device right but they can't they can hurt our
[01:10:09] psychology but they can't hurt our essence mm-hmm okay but nobody's denying that trauma exists
[01:10:19] but trauma isn't the scissors it's the paper the paper conceals our essence
[01:10:30] mm-hmm until and it hides our essence it doesn't hurt our essence and and we will think
[01:10:43] that it has won in the game of rock paper scissors paper beats rock because it wraps the paper mm-hmm until
[01:10:54] we open up the paper yes and we separate who we truly are which is the rock yes trauma which is the paper so
[01:11:11] trauma conceals us it doesn't hurt us hmm hmm that's quite powerful isn't it really
[01:11:22] hmm yeah yes
[01:11:30] uh it's this is quite nice therapy actually Simon
[01:11:36] yeah I'm not a therapist ladies and gentlemen but you've heard
[01:11:40] I I'm I was really really really really chuffed when I came up with that rock paper scissors
[01:11:47] analogy I don't know six months or so ago because for me it is it is the definitive metaphor
[01:11:56] in my opinion for trauma yes concealing and a bit but the thing that you know what's great about that metaphor is that
[01:12:08] uh paper is flimsy rock is hard and even though the paper looks like it's powerful and conceals the rock
[01:12:18] it is flimsy and it can be removed and you know what I mean you're left with
[01:12:24] it's a seeing job not a doing job that's right yes it's perception it's yes yeah
[01:12:35] so so what's the answer
[01:12:39] seeing more seeing more seeing more seeing more of our emotions or seeing more
[01:12:45] of of of you talked about uh about identifying so
[01:12:56] for me it it's it's seeing is identifying with the rock not well so my response to that then is
[01:13:09] because because this is one thing that I've struggled with I think um identity and you know
[01:13:16] right at the very beginning you asked me you know what the significance was of Jane
[01:13:21] and it's interesting because it's nestled in the core of me right I was given the name
[01:13:28] Samantha Brooks but I was born uh with Jane with a different surname
[01:13:34] and uh you know my my parents kindly kept that uh and I knew and I knew that my name was Jane when I
[01:13:43] was born so again I've always had that narrative throughout life uh and one day I might write a
[01:13:49] story I have actually written a story about my biological parents but um it might be interesting
[01:13:55] to write a story about these two different identities Samantha Brooks and Jane you know
[01:14:00] yeah they could be two different they're both labels well they're both labels exactly
[01:14:09] but would would would Jane have been as I mean in inverted commas as successful as Samantha I mean
[01:14:16] you know I am successful in some ways and less so in others would I have got married and had
[01:14:22] children as Jane would you know uh it's parallel universes really so this this way madness lies
[01:14:31] therefore I shouldn't I shouldn't explore it well it hasn't been uh I'm you you you're your own person
[01:14:39] um yes I have the I don't have the uh I don't have the right to say either one way I'm just
[01:14:50] saying uh how overthinking I don't I don't feel it benefits me no I agree uh with me uh yeah
[01:15:01] it has its place so it has it it has its place yeah um it does and we've probably come to a good
[01:15:13] place to bring it in actually unless you want to if there's is there anything that you'd like to
[01:15:20] share before we I found that extremely I mean I don't feel like we've talked for an hour but we have
[01:15:27] so um we've we've explored and it's you know these sorts of conversations always shift things and and
[01:15:34] I like that you are very patient in your thinking and you're exploring of this and kind and I think him
[01:15:45] healing is a really worthwhile journey to go on obviously you know so so thank you for um
[01:15:54] letting me discuss some ideas with you loved it too thanks listeners we'll speak to you very soon
[01:16:00] take care bye bye