Freed From Trauma With Jude Hung

[00:00:00] Hello everybody, welcome to the inaugural Facebook Live for Thriving Adoptees.

[00:00:08] Oh, oh, oh, oh, right, just move to again.

[00:00:12] A few, a few settling in issues here. So this is the first Facebook Live, the inaugural interview

[00:00:20] for Thriving Adoptees. You know normally it's just video, it's not an ordinary audio today's

[00:00:27] obviously video and this will become an audio too. So why are we here? Why are we here? Well,

[00:00:35] my good friend Jude is over from North Carolina and I've hopped over from from Leeds to

[00:00:44] to me because she's here with her husband and we thought well why don't we do a live

[00:00:50] interview, Jude hasn't been on the podcast before so we thought we'll do the

[00:00:55] interview long. Perfect. Do you remember everything? I believe so we're in Ireland.

[00:01:00] We're in Ireland, Dublin, yeah, Dublin, Ireland. Americans for some reason need to say that,

[00:01:05] you know like Paris France. Yeah, we've heard that there is a Paris, Texas,

[00:01:10] you know, there's a Paris in Texas but if you just say Paris and show me a

[00:01:15] an art to tree on for an Iful Tower, we know that it's France not Texas. Yeah, Dublin,

[00:01:21] Ireland, Dublin. So yeah, Jude and husband came over on the inaugural flight of

[00:01:28] JetBlue so you can have an inaugural flight of Dublin and then an inaugural version

[00:01:34] video interview. Right. So today we're talking as we always talk about

[00:01:41] thriving.com. We're talking about healing. So Jude, what does healing mean to you?

[00:01:51] Healing to me means having the freedom to be holy myself, to be fully

[00:02:01] myself true to my essence and to live free in that, to feel comfortable to be me

[00:02:07] and to enjoy life. Wow, freedom. So we're back. There is a French link here,

[00:02:13] you know, we talked about Paris France. What does it say? Egalité, Liberté

[00:02:19] and something, there's three things or one of them at the French is freedom, right?

[00:02:23] And I'll see in the state you've got the Statue of Liberty. So freedom. Yeah,

[00:02:29] there's quite a lot to unpack there. So what helps us get to that place?

[00:02:36] What's the what's the journey? It's been a really long journey for me, maybe like a

[00:02:42] 30, 40 year journey on 50s. I would say but there's been certain key moments

[00:02:51] and the biggest one which I've talked with you about was the the aha around

[00:02:59] separating myself from my trauma bound identity and realizing that I have a

[00:03:06] a wholeness of my true essence that is whole and free from the trauma,

[00:03:15] from the wound and that I can move and be in that free from all the the wounding

[00:03:23] and the trauma and the beliefs and the patterning that yeah,

[00:03:30] so it's entangled in that. So this isn't like a it's a bit strange ladies and gentlemen

[00:03:35] because we don't know it's I don't know what to look at the screen. We don't know where

[00:03:39] to look and pick where in their business range of hotel and people start to

[00:03:45] think we're going to be right. So this when you say yes on aha moment

[00:03:50] this is an aha moment in aha moments of extreme profundity.

[00:03:55] It's a right it's not just oh I know how to get to the airport faster

[00:04:00] it's something that's really deep in your soul yeah.

[00:04:05] Yes, it's it's like we've tied like an embodied aha and then there's an unfolding

[00:04:13] really or yeah there's an unfolding where it becomes you're unprocessing it more

[00:04:20] and more and more and more embodied and true and changes how I am interacting

[00:04:26] with the world outside of me. Yeah, and the world inside of me.

[00:04:31] So oh wow like that distinction so are you saying like rather than this being

[00:04:36] like just an idea in your head or something that you get in your heart

[00:04:41] that you're saying embodied so it is like a whole the whole of you

[00:04:47] the whole of your essence. It's not a flash in the pan or a nice idea

[00:04:55] or a bumper sticker or a theory it's something much deeper than that.

[00:05:01] It's becoming something that I own and know in myself like the cello might be.

[00:05:06] Yeah, yeah. So that kind of leads me in and the cell of your being

[00:05:13] because everybody talked yeah the cells have been not the cell of the prison

[00:05:18] right so you're talking about because you know everybody quakes this vessel

[00:05:23] van der Kolk you know the body keeps the skull right if you're talking about

[00:05:29] being at a cellular level you're talking about a departure of the trauma-based

[00:05:40] cells. A departure of the the trauma infused cells and a replacement

[00:05:47] with the whole cells is that way? New cells well yeah I would say I do believe

[00:05:53] in neuroplasticity and I know that the body regenerates itself

[00:05:58] and we can change the information within ourselves. So I do believe that

[00:06:05] that is likely part of the process I wish I like you know had a PhD in that

[00:06:10] but I don't so I don't want to be like yes but I do believe that.

[00:06:14] At least that in my felt sense, in my sensory awareness and my sensory

[00:06:19] experience is true. I am not who I once was and I'm not interacting with the world

[00:06:27] in the ways that I once did and as a result like I would say the proof is in

[00:06:35] the pudding like as a result my whole life has shifted and I'm enjoying life

[00:06:39] and I would say that my baseline of where I'm operating from has changed.

[00:06:45] I know I had shared with you that I used to think I was depressed

[00:06:50] and I lived from that place for most of my life and to shift to a much higher

[00:07:01] state of being feels still feels a little foreign like they still knew but

[00:07:10] it's been like three years now and it's very solid at the same time and

[00:07:16] I look at my life and like oh my gosh how did I get all this how did I get here

[00:07:21] you know and what I by all this I just mean feeling good I just feel good

[00:07:26] and I didn't know I was hoped it was possible I believed it was possible

[00:07:30] I didn't know that I would ever experience it in this lifetime.

[00:07:33] Yeah.

[00:07:34] So going back to the cells thing then I've heard that from a scientist

[00:07:41] our bodies have every is seven years a seven-year cycle within within

[00:07:48] seven years every cell within our body has been replaced so that would be

[00:07:55] kind of consistent if we were flushing out the trauma out of the cells

[00:08:00] and replacing them with whole cells if we and you've got this you've got

[00:08:05] this lovely distinction between the trauma bound identity and then what's

[00:08:11] what's the other bit what's the answer.

[00:08:13] I called our birth bound identity because that is we live on earth it is our human

[00:08:18] experience and I would say the mean one of the main differentiators

[00:08:23] would be coming from a fear-based anchor you know place and a heart-based

[00:08:29] anchor you know love anchored existence away.

[00:08:33] So I I love the earth bound one because people might think that we're

[00:08:39] actually on a different planet so I'm glad that you reminded everybody

[00:08:44] that we live on earth and some people walking in here may think that we're

[00:08:49] living on a different planet every night you know enough.

[00:08:52] So if that yeah I came up with an idea last week since you know I like my

[00:09:00] metaphors I told you about this this metaphor of a sponge right.

[00:09:05] Yeah so I was thinking about the I was talking to somebody about the in-eutro

[00:09:12] stuff that we that goes on often for as adoptees because so our birth mothers

[00:09:16] are stressed and are stressed out to put it politely often they're under a

[00:09:21] lot of there may be a lot of pressure and feeling out of sorts they know that

[00:09:28] they know that they've got adoption plan like I would my my birth mother had

[00:09:35] a plan before yeah before I was born so she knows that she's gonna be

[00:09:42] losing this baby that she's been in her for nine months and so she's got

[00:09:48] high degree of cortisol right toxic stress toxic stress in cortisol and I came

[00:09:55] and I was thinking about metaphors and I was thinking for some reason I came

[00:10:02] up with this idea of you know a bucket and a sponge and I saw if we're washing our

[00:10:06] car right. So we've got some hot water that's soap in it we've got a sponge we

[00:10:10] dropped the sponge in there and the sponge sucks up all the load of water right

[00:10:16] we take the we take the sponge out and we can't see we can't see the water in

[00:10:22] in the sponge but we can obviously squeeze it out right so I came up with this

[00:10:28] idea healing basically is squeezing the cortisol imagine that that sponge is

[00:10:36] us and the the water is cortisol that we've been we've been bathing in the

[00:10:43] huge in the uterus is all right in the uterus and you know yeah right and we've

[00:10:48] been we've been taking it pickled yeah we've been pickled in cortisol which

[00:10:54] leads us to do slightly strange things later on right anyway but so if we

[00:10:59] squeeze if we're squeezing the water out of the sponge at healing is basically

[00:11:05] getting the cortisol out of the system and maybe if we look if we say that

[00:11:11] the cortisol is in the cells that's that seven-year journey to which all our

[00:11:15] cells have replaced right well and it it really takes us back to

[00:11:21] biological basics of like homeostasis our bodies are always wanting to resolve

[00:11:28] to heal to be in wholeness to be in balance and so homeostasis is our body's

[00:11:34] natural like immunity and an essence to bring things back into balance and

[00:11:40] the that it's bringing our that cortisol like bring everything back into balance

[00:11:45] and it is always working toward that and so we often as children with trauma you

[00:11:55] know infant trauma relinquishment and abandonment trauma mother separation

[00:11:59] trauma we have lived in a state of imbalance our nervous systems have been

[00:12:04] dysregulated and so it is all trying to bring us back to and use everything

[00:12:09] that's happening in our lives to bring us back into that balanced state to

[00:12:15] wholeness so this is fizzy water right so imagine I just squeezed the sponge

[00:12:21] that's the cortisol and the reason that I'm banging on about this just we're

[00:12:26] separating who we are right the sponge from the trauma yeah in the shape of

[00:12:33] the cortisol and as Jude mentioned so eloquently talked about this home

[00:12:40] estatus homeostatus it's about going home home home yeah so I can't I can't

[00:12:46] pronounce it luckily got you to know so yeah so with homeostasis that kind of

[00:12:52] links into what your organization's called yeah home home yes yeah but

[00:13:00] finding home finding home yeah so that's what we're doing we're returning or as

[00:13:06] Nancy Vario says in the second book returning to home isn't it to harm to

[00:13:13] self yeah yeah I wonder why she described the book that describes the

[00:13:20] primal winds about that pick and it's got like thousands of scores

[00:13:26] and readers and readers and really loves that book and then but the the second

[00:13:33] book is about that high and hardly anybody's reviewed it yeah so if we go back

[00:13:43] to the start then so for you healing is about profound insights it has been a

[00:13:52] journey of profound insights and it's for me it's been a little bit like Dorothy

[00:14:00] the Wizard of Oz and you know I went looking outside of myself for all the

[00:14:05] answers and for healing I grew up knowing something was wrong I just didn't

[00:14:09] know that it had to do with my my roots an adoption and you know when I had

[00:14:15] that aha in 2019 that for me that was my coming out of the fog moment although

[00:14:21] there may have been all sorts of smaller moments getting me there but that was

[00:14:27] a huge aha to recognize it what was wrong and what I kept trying to heal was

[00:14:31] at these roots this root experience and then you know another aha around the

[00:14:39] trauma-bound identity that my identity had been so entangled with the trauma

[00:14:44] that I didn't really know who I was and I had to slowly untangle that and

[00:14:50] differentiate what was the trauma and what is me yeah and separate that out

[00:14:54] and tease it out and that was you know for me and everyone is different it was a

[00:14:59] process of about three years until I realized oh this is who I am and then

[00:15:04] that really shifted everything from yeah yeah so it was a case of mistake

[00:15:12] an identity I think you know and I did change my name after coming out of

[00:15:18] fog and I think yeah that could be why so many we do we change our name and

[00:15:23] it I think it is taking claim and claiming who we are and you know our identity

[00:15:29] like yeah so going on coming on with the identity thing it's a case of

[00:15:37] mistake an identity and also some might say like identity

[00:15:44] what most definitely you think about it right so what's true I'm all identity yeah

[00:15:50] we've been given a false identity but on a couple of different levels right

[00:15:53] yeah so the name the name right yeah so I was David Anthony flower and now I'm

[00:16:01] Simon Jonathan I wasn't given a name I was the baby I'm afraid sorry for

[00:16:12] little Jude little Jude's parts yeah parts how do you get on with those parts

[00:16:19] you know that parts work the parts work I have heard about the parts work and

[00:16:24] I it's to me it's a little similar to shadow work or inner child right like

[00:16:30] the way we are relating to different parts of ourselves and pieces and

[00:16:34] aspects of our psyche or yeah and what is interesting because I have done shadow

[00:16:42] work a lot of that and inner child is as I became more whole that kind of

[00:16:49] connecting to pieces of me fell away and it's like I'm just whole like I just

[00:16:53] connect to me as a whole that have fragmented and so I find that interesting

[00:16:57] that those things kind of just yeah and I'm guessing that your first mother

[00:17:04] was told not to give you a name well my circumstance her circumstance which

[00:17:11] also is mine was that she was right and so and then found herself pregnant

[00:17:19] and in 1968 abortion was not legal so she found herself in a pretty difficult

[00:17:26] situation where she didn't want to connect with the baby inside of her at all

[00:17:31] right so yeah right and it's also I'm sure was encouraged isn't she

[00:17:37] brave I you know I'm sure she was encouraged also because they don't she

[00:17:46] wasn't gonna keep it to not connect and I think it just made it easier just the

[00:17:50] baby you know the baby yeah that will tear that will tear yeah well that used to

[00:17:59] bring up a ton of emotion in me and now it still can and today yeah yeah

[00:18:07] because one of my ways I kind of summed that up is you know healing is being

[00:18:16] triggered less yeah and and I guess be most specifically to tie into what

[00:18:23] you just said not being triggered by the stuff that used to trigger us yes I

[00:18:30] think when right being triggered means that our nervous systems are being

[00:18:36] activated and becoming dysregulated right so homeostasis is being

[00:18:40] balanced so when we still have emotional energy left from a trauma in our bodies

[00:18:47] and we are activated it's trying to release some of that that energy right we're

[00:18:54] releasing that energy and over time it will become less right over time if we

[00:19:00] actually process it like so we can either why does nobody else summed up so

[00:19:04] well that you did I have no idea so it can either be on a loop it can either be

[00:19:11] on a loop that we're replaying over and over or we have the aha moment that shifts

[00:19:18] it and it plays out and it releases right and then it happens less and less so

[00:19:23] how would you relate that back to my sponge and the thought of well it is it's

[00:19:29] like the body is trying to release it a little at a time and I think it's it's

[00:19:34] really the body's wisdom because I've heard this and I don't absolutely know

[00:19:39] if it's absolutely true but I have heard like if if the body were to release it

[00:19:43] all at once it would damage us like it could it would be too much for us

[00:19:47] it's so so much energy and so it's it is releasing bits at a time and

[00:19:54] sometimes big parts at a time yeah yeah what we can handle we build capacity

[00:19:58] and resilience over time and we can release it more and more so the the

[00:20:04] extension of the metaphor that's popping up into my head is it's almost as if

[00:20:08] as another part of trauma trauma puts the sponge in a plastic bag right you know

[00:20:17] when because when you buy a sponge often it's it's in it's in like

[00:20:22] shrink film shrink wrap the water and we're kind of so a part of the trauma is it

[00:20:26] kind of seals us off it seals the sponge it seals the sponge in its plastic and

[00:20:32] if it seals it's plastic then the cortisol ain't gonna come out is it no

[00:20:38] it's just gonna stay stuck well and sometimes that is part of our protective

[00:20:44] coping mechanisms right to replay the trauma we kind of get trauma lenses

[00:20:50] yeah that we see the world through like for me it was a band-a-man and I kept

[00:20:57] replaying the abandonment story that was my narrative and it is oh you know

[00:21:02] everybody abandons me the world abandons me and so I would end up seeing that

[00:21:07] everywhere I went and giving that meaning to things yeah it was a band-a-man

[00:21:12] so touched on that with Jeff I was telling you about the interview with Jeff

[00:21:17] Fawning out in LA last night and I wasn't in LA I was just in Zoom in the

[00:21:23] house in Huntsyclap but he was he was talking about the lens I think it's a really

[00:21:29] good metaphor for how we see stuff and my favorite mentor teacher guy at the

[00:21:37] moment this group of sparring guy he talks about the fact that if we've got

[00:21:44] orange glasses on glasses on then snow appears orange yeah when clearly it's

[00:21:53] white so can you I think that especially true for adoptees or anyone that has

[00:22:02] early childhood trauma because our personality was not formed prior to our

[00:22:08] trauma so we don't have a before to go back to and say wait I'm perceiving

[00:22:12] things differently than I used to before my trauma so so it is our normal so

[00:22:18] we think my glasses my lens is online for a fine I don't need to take these off

[00:22:24] and see differently right yeah it's a bit like the you know that old story

[00:22:30] about that if you put a frog in cold water don't do this yeah but yeah it

[00:22:39] doesn't it doesn't sense the water but if you put it in a hot put it into a

[00:22:45] hot thing it jumps right out yeah just think develop it done that somebody did

[00:22:50] it and we did it to come up with the story yeah so if healing is about these

[00:22:57] profound insights and nobody talks about that either didn't really do they say

[00:23:02] all healings about therapy or healings about and connecting with fellow

[00:23:07] adoptees and healings about reading a book or so they kind of like they're all

[00:23:13] talking about the strategies they're talking about the strategies rather than

[00:23:19] I don't know that they think they are hard moments it is because but those

[00:23:23] things that the means to the end the end is healing the end is an insight

[00:23:28] yes and and I yes it's not just once and done is that percolation isn't it yeah

[00:23:35] it is the percolation of the idea it is that spiral like a spy I call that

[00:23:41] spiral of growth but you know I think our body I like to call it a compass or my

[00:23:47] enchanted compass but it is the guidance system that we have been given in

[00:23:51] that homeostasis I believe prompts these aha moments and what those

[00:23:56] moments are is the unconscious becoming conscious it is something the body has

[00:24:03] known and operated in and it's been separated from us in our unconscious that's

[00:24:08] the young question until they oh it is calling I mean yeah I love yeah and the

[00:24:15] unconscious if you look at the iceberg picture is you know it's like 90% is

[00:24:20] under water and that's our unconscious and that is driving our everyday choices

[00:24:25] and actions and so much of our life and then the conscious part is like 5-10

[00:24:30] percent it above the water and it operates at a much slower speed I have this

[00:24:36] information somewhere I'll get it to you and the unconscious part is like tons more

[00:24:43] information at a much higher speed it's really interesting but those aha

[00:24:48] moments is it's our unconscious becoming conscious and then once it's conscious

[00:24:53] it's in our awareness and we can begin to resolve it okay but when the unconscious

[00:24:57] we don't know it's driving and we don't know so that I don't know I don't have to

[00:25:02] talk about this really here I keep it here I go I do you talk about that recently

[00:25:06] coming out of the fog is that isn't it it's one of those moments when we

[00:25:13] become conscious of something that we were unconscious of before and an idea

[00:25:19] that's coming to me a lot at the moment is the fact that the first one is the

[00:25:24] biggie on this but then for the rest of our lives we will be yes this different

[00:25:31] the different levels of trauma will be surfacing yeah we'll be coming so well

[00:25:37] that kind of fits in with your metaphor for the iceberg so the iceberg is going

[00:25:41] to be coming further more and more the iceberg if that's the that's the sea

[00:25:45] more and more of the iceberg is going to be revealed and we'll see more and

[00:25:50] more of it yeah and also I guess it will melt if it's sunny it will melt if it's

[00:25:54] sunny and really I think that's the the human journey I don't think that's

[00:26:00] only adoptees I think that's the human journey of making the unconscious

[00:26:05] conscious right and living from a more conscious place

[00:26:12] more wholeness right or yeah well it's pretty deep kind of deep that's where the

[00:26:22] good stuff is isn't it yeah that's where the good stuff is so what do you think

[00:26:29] oh no before I asked that can you take us through like the what you know just

[00:26:38] the the the granular detail of what happened on that do you remember that

[00:26:43] moment you talked about that memory three three years ago can you give us a

[00:26:47] bit of context and time slow it right down for us when I separated out from my

[00:26:55] trauma band I couldn't yeah yeah I had been working with a friend who works with

[00:27:03] trauma and energetics and we were talking about the trauma bound identity

[00:27:10] and it wasn't really named yet Michelle Frank's I'm gonna give you a shout out

[00:27:15] and thank you Michelle thank you Michelle and in the talk about the

[00:27:22] energetics of it we were talking about like fascia the in the human body and

[00:27:26] the entanglement that happens if you have a physically acute injury

[00:27:30] energetically it's much the same and she was like you know it's like your

[00:27:35] identity is trauma bound and I was like that ding ding ding ding that's that's

[00:27:40] it like that's the name and so once we named it and I could begin to

[00:27:45] understand what was happening with my trauma and how it was playing out and

[00:27:49] how entangled my identity was it was a short time after that I had like a huge

[00:27:59] a big relationship abandonment a relationship ending and it felt like this

[00:28:05] huge abandonment and it really mirrored that first wounding to me and because of

[00:28:13] that life experience I would and the understanding that my that my the role

[00:28:19] the trauma was playing as I went through it I was differentiating like I said

[00:28:25] what's my trauma what's really who I am and so as I went through this

[00:28:30] experience that felt like abandonment rejection and I was very purposefully

[00:28:37] differentiating things and journaling and and feeling one of my feeling my body

[00:28:43] I was almost like tearing apart the trauma bound identity from who I was and

[00:28:49] I could really feel it even in my body and so it was almost like through the

[00:28:59] abandonment and looking at it living through it in a different way from a

[00:29:04] different perspective I was able to really separate out from the trauma bound

[00:29:11] identity and pull away from it and begin to choose differently I'm gonna live

[00:29:17] differently I see I could see it very clearly so the first step was the

[00:29:25] insight of how a trauma bound identity and then the second step was repeat

[00:29:33] then the second event was was a repeat of the the loss the abandonment stuff

[00:29:42] yeah and you put those two things together yeah so do you remember putting those

[00:29:48] do you remember when that was the moment when you did you wake up one morning you

[00:29:53] thought I put those two things together or do you know I think you know by

[00:29:58] having the language it was in my conscious awareness okay right and so it

[00:30:03] gave me the scaffolding gave me the path like I could look at the abandonment

[00:30:09] which you know I've gone through so many bandaments in life and there you

[00:30:12] know I kind of was seeing it in a lot of things and it was that I was like oh this

[00:30:19] isn't about me this is about that person what they need and it it was no

[00:30:23] longer about me being abandoned so having that languaging enabled me to go

[00:30:28] through what I would have called abandonment in a different way and then after

[00:30:32] it was all done and I processed it I was like oh my gosh I didn't handle it from

[00:30:37] my trauma bound identity I just handled it as me as Jude you know and and I

[00:30:43] could see what was the trauma and what was me and so you know and then the more

[00:30:48] you work through life that way the less that affects you at all yeah yeah so is

[00:30:55] a big glimpse it was more than a glimpse was it yeah yes

[00:31:02] like in in three or four words it's not taking abandonment personally not

[00:31:12] taking it personally it's not about it was never about me not even the first

[00:31:18] abandonment it wasn't right my mother was right it's not about me had nothing to do

[00:31:23] with me there it was the circumstances and the times in the choices that she

[00:31:29] had to make and the people around her helped her make or told her to make

[00:31:33] rightly it was never about me ever so what do you think it wasn't personal yeah

[00:31:42] so what do you think stops us having those insights or what has stopped you

[00:31:53] I think you're insights because she's talking about three years ago yeah and you mid-50s

[00:32:03] why did it take so long um I thought I've thought about that myself I have to I have some theories

[00:32:09] but I'll share just from my personal experience I think the body will like kind of allow

[00:32:20] what you're it's about capacity building like what I was able to handle you know

[00:32:25] you're talking about an infant that went through something that was so traumatic and terrifying

[00:32:31] and had no context for that kind of trauma and so my body our bodies took in a lot of cortisol

[00:32:37] we stayed in that state for a very long time at least I did and so I had to capacity build all

[00:32:44] these years to be able to really face the the largeness of what my body had been caring and

[00:32:51] went through as an infant so it's the body's power over the intellect is it I'm seeing you know

[00:32:58] I'm saying insights I'm talking about seeing it I'm talking about seeing it you're talking

[00:33:02] about it being like embodied yeah a system flooded with cortisol rather than just a nice idea

[00:33:11] yeah the amount of grief that I was caring personally for I had to build enough capacity to release

[00:33:16] that that amount of grief was very heavy and the anger you know so I had to build capacity

[00:33:26] to release it and I think sometimes the body just lets us release little bits as you said

[00:33:30] capacity because you said if you said earlier on didn't you that if we talk if it all came out in one

[00:33:35] day it would be much better to be too much you wouldn't be able to handle it I think we'd have

[00:33:38] an until breakdown yeah yeah so I'm thinking of us a I'm thinking of a swimming metaphor

[00:33:47] okay right and so do you know how far it is from England to France across the channel

[00:33:52] I did learn that in this sport but no I don't all right well why would you be interested in

[00:33:55] I don't know why they've been interested in English geography British geography why would you

[00:34:00] be interested in yeah okay it's 22 miles approximately and that's the day of swimming yeah people do

[00:34:06] swim and they I it was one of my dreams yeah one of my goals to swim but then I found out how much

[00:34:14] poo you have to swim through and jellyfish and I just thought no that doesn't sound right fun

[00:34:31] and so it's sort of it's like so you know capacity building in this analogy you know you get

[00:34:40] you get your two length badge right so you've swung 50 yards or 50 meters and then you try

[00:34:46] and swim the channel you know you don't do that you kind of build up to it don't you yeah yeah

[00:34:52] yes and when the when the ego or psyche like identifies with the wound I think it's very hard to

[00:35:03] let that go it becomes an existential crisis right the ego identifies with the wound yeah okay I

[00:35:13] think there's something big here so can it explain that a lot more maybe

[00:35:21] so our our ego has different identities and that we you know we put on our our business identity

[00:35:28] we might put on our father like I'm a dad now and you know so we have different roles

[00:35:34] roles that we play and one of our roles as an adoptee orphaned archetype role you know is the wound

[00:35:45] so we have that that is it's part of us and to be whole we have to let that go we think that

[00:35:53] we are trauma yeah so that's the trauma found identity so to let that go it's like letting go a

[00:36:03] huge piece of us we have almost have to grieve that even or release it and you know that that's not

[00:36:11] who we are that's a big deal that's existential you know yeah so I've heard again this is Rupert Spira

[00:36:19] thank you Rupert and he's got a great metaphor for this which I think is kind of similar like so what we want

[00:36:31] um it's the mouth to the flame right so the mouth is the ego and the flame is who we really are

[00:36:41] so okay the the the the mouth wants and more than anything else to be happy peaceful that sort of stuff right

[00:36:51] and so it's drawn towards the flame okay and then it gets within about two inches of the

[00:36:56] flame and it stops because it realizes it has to die into the flame yes and that's when it it really

[00:37:06] really kicks off and you were talking that's really good you were talking about thank you it's not

[00:37:14] mind-through but it's that's it that's it that's it right okay so you were talking about it's the ego

[00:37:20] death and it can cause a dark night the soul and you know who am I so you were talking about

[00:37:29] conversation I had with Heidi Heidi Marvel's from Paul By The Root yeah and you said that this might

[00:37:40] yeah you might have yeah that could be so I was explaining some of my metaphors to her and she's

[00:37:46] thinking this is gray yeah and and quite often after we have these are our moments then the ego comes

[00:37:55] back with the vengeance again because it's it's been thinking this stuff suffering this suffering for

[00:38:02] ages yeah and and and it says well I've got to 52 or I've got to 48 I've got to 48 and I've been

[00:38:12] thinking this stuff for the last 47 years 44 years whatever it is and and now you're showing me a

[00:38:21] whole new world you're allying and that's it so that night of the soft it's the fight it's the fight

[00:38:33] back yeah they call it ego's got back lash yeah ego back lash well yeah and honestly the ego sounds

[00:38:43] like a rocky movie you know ego is our like filter between our inner world and out of world and I think

[00:38:51] we we end up putting too much especially Western we put so much emphasis on the mind you know so it's

[00:38:58] taken on more of a role than it was meant to have and its role was to keep us safe it's role to keep us safe

[00:39:09] yeah and and does that is that the but we gave it all sorts of like deciding like decision

[00:39:17] is that that's the stuff that keeps us stuck in so that's the clean film on there is that the

[00:39:22] clean film on the sponge maybe and in that it does it keeps us stuck because it keeps it in our

[00:39:29] subconscious our unconscious right instead of letting it out into our awareness right why would

[00:39:37] it do that because it wants to keep the role once you play in the role the same role if I play the

[00:39:42] role I'm safe yeah and we see be out if we see the man behind the curtain right so I'm feeling

[00:39:51] the need to go back to your wizard of odds metaphor yeah so what happens I think there's something

[00:39:59] there is if you after you see the so you know you have the great powerful wizard of Oz and he's all

[00:40:06] scary and then you just see it's a little man behind the curtain and he's not so magical

[00:40:12] and then he still promises to help her get home but he doesn't get her home you know who

[00:40:17] get their home she does she's like she's got the shoes with her and Glenda the Good Witch says

[00:40:23] you have the power within you all along it's inside of us it's inside of us so I'm thinking about

[00:40:30] the so the wizard of ours right so I'm thinking about the adoptees an adoptee equivalent

[00:40:38] she wasn't an adopte what do I think you have I seen that film all the way through

[00:40:50] because there's a lot of films I haven't seen all the way through and sound of music for one of

[00:40:55] I'm just thinking about what if we were to kind of we could what if we were to make it rather than

[00:41:01] the wizard of Oz yeah yeah and the big and he's a scary wizard isn't he as well okay yeah so

[00:41:10] the I'm trying to think of like an adoptee specific equivalent for the wizard of Oz more for that

[00:41:19] three I don't know I like I like to order the analysis or my they're my go-to people but um

[00:41:26] I don't know and what Alice's mother you're with Allison I'm I'm thinking like

[00:41:38] Harry Potter well no I'm thinking I'm yeah the grim reaper

[00:41:44] well because he's got that um sickle and what do you do with the sickle cut this cut big cut things

[00:41:55] right and what happens what what does a cut what's another word for a cut I don't know what's

[00:42:00] another word for the cut that's you that's you very wound primal wound so what we're saying really

[00:42:09] what the grim reaper the grim reaper yeah well he's killing it's killing our identity

[00:42:17] he's killing our it's putting it's putting it's using his sickle so put a um and

[00:42:30] and and this is we're lucky we're joking about it yeah but the adoptee suicide right oh yeah

[00:42:44] that's true that's how you know that's a down that's really because it's that's very um

[00:42:50] it's very real and I don't know if you ever had suicidal ideation but I did it's very real

[00:42:56] and and I do think it goes back to those initial moments of terror and feeling like we're going to die

[00:43:07] um I know through through different like I did EFT and that came up and I re-experienced some

[00:43:13] of those infant feelings yeah too much emotional freedom technique it's happening

[00:43:21] and I have a practitioner who specialises in in her child and so she was able to work with me there

[00:43:27] it was good yeah yeah yeah that's very real um I'm thinking of an adoptee a Brit adoptee called

[00:43:38] Joy that um I interviewed ages and ages ago yeah and she was found she was a twin and she was found

[00:43:47] in the bush in somewhere in Africa sorry I'm always and by her maybe by a mum and dad who were

[00:43:56] missionaries or something and then adopted into the UK you know Trans-Rational Adoption

[00:44:02] all that goes with that identity confusion but yeah she was found next to her dead twin sister

[00:44:10] that's heartbreaking well and I think they're you know why did I survive there a lot there that's

[00:44:18] that would be very hard that would be very challenging to carry that's challenging yeah yeah what do

[00:44:26] they call it survivor skill survivor skill I think there can be healer's guilt as well hate

[00:44:32] and skill well at least sometimes I experience it like like um be like I said in the beginning I didn't

[00:44:44] I was hoped and believed that it's not like you just get to the other side it there's always more but

[00:44:51] that I would be able to feel the way I do now about life and myself

[00:44:57] but even when I was hoping and believing there was a piece of me that didn't think it was possible

[00:45:01] and so then I get there and I then sustain it for a few years so I know I'm like sustaining it

[00:45:10] and holding it and um so it's not just gonna go pff and then I see you know I work in our community

[00:45:18] and I see where people are yeah and and I can have I feel like I want to keep my story in or I

[00:45:26] don't want to share it or I don't want to seem too happy because I know the reality of what they

[00:45:31] carry and what they live with and have lived it I've been there done that and so I kind of sometimes

[00:45:37] will temper it down so that's another and so it's another kind of ego thing is it it's like

[00:45:44] it's like yeah yeah um like we feel uh it could be an extension of the wound wanting to fit in

[00:45:53] wanting to belong yeah right because there would be nothing worse and I have come up against this

[00:45:58] and it's been made very clear to me through my own inner understanding that there would be nothing

[00:46:02] worse uh I think for an adoptee than um to be abandoned by their own tribe which is adoptees

[00:46:11] right like oh well you can't be that well bye bye bye yeah who's she is bye bye yeah uh oh yes

[00:46:21] toxic toxic positivity yeah that could be said for sure that could be said and so but that's not real

[00:46:29] that's yeah but that's gonna yeah yeah I had this strange moment about I think it was about six weeks

[00:46:40] ago two months yes I go when I felt I just spent time looking at stuff at the social media and

[00:46:50] and there's so many advocates out there trying to get the message across to change to change these

[00:46:56] this uh to change the narrative so right you know yeah you're you're under the

[00:47:02] comment rainbows and unicorns is wrong you know that but and so we've kind of and I was thinking

[00:47:11] this doesn't I think you know a one level subgroup this doesn't affect me by ego science it's not

[00:47:18] done affect me and then it all landed on me um one um it was a Monday afternoon I've done a

[00:47:26] couple of calls and it just I just felt the world I felt all the I felt all the stuff on my shoulders

[00:47:36] and I and it was I guess it was me coming out of the fog about how I feel that no that basically

[00:47:46] I've been I've seen this advocacy stuff and it's been triggering me and I've been thinking that was

[00:47:51] above that I'm not gonna activate me yeah not that's not gonna yeah yeah yeah of course of course

[00:48:03] you know we think we're beyond something and then it will hit some other little area

[00:48:10] and so the beauty of that is what's happening as it's coming into your awareness to be seen to be

[00:48:16] resolved to be yeah that with yeah and it's almost as if that that resolved itself pretty quickly

[00:48:29] so you know when you talk you talked about the um the trauma bound identity and then this

[00:48:37] there's that yeah no sorry the you talked about spotting the truth hearing the key the key

[00:48:42] the three key words trauma bound identity yes yeah um and then the then the abandonment

[00:48:51] of this the end of this relationship and you put those two things together yeah

[00:48:57] um it it's almost as if as I look back on that that that moment of a feeling the world on my

[00:49:09] shoulders and really recognizing it it it came that came to the surface really quickly

[00:49:17] and then it didn't take a long time to heal you know it came up it came out into the light I think

[00:49:24] oh I've done that whereas years you know maybe a couple of years ago I would have sat

[00:49:30] that I would have sat with the world on my shoulders for maybe two days maybe two weeks

[00:49:37] yeah not not like two minutes like it did then so it's it's it's almost like healing

[00:49:45] um it gets faster what's healing get faster yeah I think that's the capacity building you've built

[00:49:50] capacity right you've built resilience so you respond you are resilient right there's a difference

[00:49:56] between being reactionary and resiliency right or being in survival and getting through

[00:50:02] and resiliency resiliency feels completely different right then just getting through I've been

[00:50:07] I'm strong arming through um so you've built capacity you've built resilience you're differentiating

[00:50:14] I thought the languaging around all of this really helps us and we're skill building

[00:50:20] uh with okay well I know how to manage this I know I know what this is I've seen it before

[00:50:27] and it passed its right so so yeah you're you're resolving it much quicker

[00:50:34] I know I get it full of yeah I'm still oh so since we awareness we are entering into an age

[00:50:42] of greater sensory awareness making these connections isn't there isn't there something here about

[00:50:48] being becoming consciously unconscious what do people say about that consciously unconsciously unconscious

[00:50:58] then with consciously unconscious yeah we're shifting right that what's unconscious to

[00:51:04] greater consciousness but you're breaking it I'm just thinking about that's back quicker

[00:51:09] but then you're breaking it down into the different things the resiliency and the

[00:51:12] capacity building and etc and I was thinking like surviving to thriving the shifting

[00:51:19] you know getting back getting through to yes right we want to get to that where we feel like we're

[00:51:24] thriving so yeah so why is nobody else talking about this stuff I think some people are but not

[00:51:34] no but I mean it's mainly happening in therapy groups I guess I don't know about I think therapy

[00:51:39] they like it to just keep going I'm not so sure I don't know like when I've had just talk there be

[00:51:46] it just for me it's been it's been the therapies that um you know that are somatic in nature or energetic

[00:51:55] that have really created the biggest shifts for me personally I wish I had a quit that's a pound

[00:52:04] I wish I had a quit I wish I had a pound for every time I'd said something like talk therapy doesn't

[00:52:12] work if we don't have words or talk therapy doesn't work on pre-verbal trauma over the last kind of

[00:52:20] three or four months because I've been getting that message drip that drip that every pretty much

[00:52:26] every therapist I spoken to is there's no it's said that said that to me talk therapy doesn't

[00:52:32] work so you need to do the somatic stuff so that's one thing okay yeah I think therapy is supportive

[00:52:38] it helps especially if you're going through a healing process it helps to talk it out loud there's

[00:52:43] something not saying things out loud as well that makes them more solidified so you know I think

[00:52:49] that's why support groups for adoptees and I'll give shout out the fireside is really good

[00:52:54] about fireside um things like that are really great hello Amanda because obviously Amanda look at the others

[00:52:59] yeah Amanda introduced us you know so um you know there's so many components

[00:53:07] so people don't they might they may not they don't feel alone anymore they feel

[00:53:14] valid agent but well that thing thing thing validation the thing we have to be acknowledged yes

[00:53:20] that's right that's true so the acknowledgement the validation that somehow helps the growth

[00:53:27] the expansion the healing the resolving um kind of almost exponentially when I have seen that in

[00:53:34] and like facilitate a small group when I see that happening I that process of validation seems to

[00:53:42] speak things along and yet and yet they can keep a stock on it it can not the validation more but yes

[00:53:52] sometimes yeah okay so I don't like that whole other thing but yes that's all I think so

[00:54:00] the only bit that I can see for this I can always speak for for myself I've had a lot of coaching

[00:54:08] over the years and I was very resistant I think to change early in being coached or bring

[00:54:16] coach for probably 20 years like business coaching stuff yeah and and

[00:54:23] um what I coach what a great coach does what a great coach has done to me for me is they

[00:54:35] um they they find out where I am and and at some point they invalidate my beliefs or they get

[00:54:47] lead to no they get me they ask me a question that gets me to invalidate my beliefs gets me to change

[00:54:54] my beliefs gets me to see something yes yeah and so and and that's the bit if I put that bit

[00:55:04] with the validation of it so I'm putting the validate I'm talking about validation within

[00:55:09] business coaching and I put that alongside the validation of the traumas I just think

[00:55:16] like isn't validating the experience not the trauma what's the difference what's the difference

[00:55:22] the difference would be because I think at least in my experience within the adoptive realm

[00:55:30] the and in my own life I'll stick with that even the I was living an outer experience and an inner

[00:55:37] experience of like within my family growing up you know so what I was experiencing in my inner

[00:55:48] world had never really been validated until I was in adoptive support circles and groups and so

[00:55:56] having that um validated that experience that something was a miss that something was actually going on

[00:56:04] it's the I'm really important I'm not going mad I'm not yeah like this is real this is a normal

[00:56:11] response to an abnormal yeah and so then I can begin to process release and move on

[00:56:20] right and I think what you're trying to hit at is sometimes we're in those circles and we stay

[00:56:25] at that space of just talking about it and not really processing integrating building capacity

[00:56:30] and moving on why we stay stuck in the room no nobody tells us that we're not at home or yeah

[00:56:37] we're not our trauma right nobody makes that until until they do

[00:56:45] no different shapes between the trauma-bound identity and the

[00:56:49] best standards well no one says there's a whole skill set that you need to move on or to

[00:56:55] or to operate differently in the world because you've been operating one way so now there's a

[00:57:00] other way to be all they write if you're the non-subariate book should write that book about that

[00:57:06] thick on that and it's all it's all about how we feel not who we are

[00:57:15] okay how we feel not who we are yeah it's all about it's it's totally

[00:57:22] psychological rather than essential well in Jesus psychologist right we are not our thoughts

[00:57:27] we are not our feelings we're not even this body right we have a core essence maybe some people

[00:57:33] caught spirit or soul or you're higher self whatever right if you think that's too we're

[00:57:38] consciousness or consciousness awareness I like that even more actually but that essence is

[00:57:47] really who we are and it is and we have an intrinsic worth and value right that yeah so it's

[00:57:56] I'm trying to get it's unwinnable it's unwinnable yeah it's that bit where

[00:58:04] is the difference between I think you might like this the the the content

[00:58:15] thoughts feelings so second and the context

[00:58:19] yeah so it's the it's the screen the screen is the context for the movie which is the content

[00:58:34] thank you Heather good to see you too hi from Ireland Heather

[00:58:42] so yeah content versus context so it's yeah it's a well context was in the work for awareness

[00:58:54] context is awareness and context is awareness and then content is what is that what's on it yeah um okay

[00:59:00] so here's one here's one for you right I'm going to ask you question matters like people say

[00:59:06] adoptive say um we're we don't come as a blank slate we don't come as a blank slate meaning to the

[00:59:15] adopted parents in household yes we arrive and we're not a blank slate okay yeah so what's on the

[00:59:24] what's on the slate well and he when they're saying that there's there's writing yeah writing yeah

[00:59:31] there's writing on the slate yeah there's writing on the slate and the writing is trauma it's

[00:59:37] trauma but the the writing they're writing that's the writing and that's the difference in the writing

[00:59:42] and the slate yeah I love that and I think they're also saying no their biology is on that slate

[00:59:49] that they know like biologically in the body yeah that's the pre-verbal trauma so the pre-before

[00:59:55] they know like the pre-verbal trauma yeah is the writing on the slate so what we're talking about here

[01:00:05] is um well I'm back to my sponge and you're back to the slate but where the slate

[01:00:13] okay well yeah yeah I'm separating I'm separating what's on the slate to the slate itself

[01:00:21] we're not a blank slate because we're loaded we come to be loaded with the trauma so the sponge

[01:00:29] is soaked in cortisol yes and nobody knew and nobody knew within no in 1960s seven when I was

[01:00:36] up to 1968 that you were told nobody knew that nobody knew yeah yeah that's another one right

[01:00:43] because had our parents known there it would be different it would have been different they would

[01:00:47] we keep on saying this and you know the people are apparently doing the best that they can

[01:00:51] we're judging 20th century parenting with 21st century trauma

[01:00:59] that's time to bring it in I think unless you've got no that's the final thing to say

[01:01:06] and links in the show notes when this is an audio right to to Jude's socials and stuff

[01:01:13] and thanks a lot and thanks to the film I guessed on the ignore a inaugural in overall Facebook

[01:01:19] live thank you bye bye bye bye listeners for people listening to the audio cheers bye