Freedom With Fiona Wells | Thriving Adoptees

Has being adopted boxed you in? Do you want to feel free-er? Free? Listen in as Fiona shares her insights on what she's learning about freedom, seeing through imposter syndrome, shaking inadequacy off and more.

Find out more about Fiona and her advocacy at:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/fiona-wells-patch-9064071a5/?originalSubdomain=uk

https://www.ourpatch.org.uk/

https://x.com/PATCH_AdoptCris

Guests and the host are not (unless mentioned) licensed pscyho-therapists and speak from their own opinion only. Seek qualified advice if you need help.

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted

[00:00:08] to be joined by Fiona, Fiona Wells. Looking forward to our conversation today.

[00:00:13] Fiona Wells Hi everyone, nice to be here.

[00:00:16] Lovely to see you. Fiona is an adoptee, also an adoptee mum and a great advocate doing some

[00:00:24] great work. So I'd really, as always listeners, there's links in the show notes. I'd really

[00:00:31] encourage you to check out what Fiona is doing. So I reckon it must be like eight months we've been

[00:00:40] talking about healing and I finally had this realisation that we should go back to what the

[00:00:47] podcast is all about, right? About thriving. So let's make it a little bit bigger than just

[00:00:54] healing. And Fiona is going to be the first one, kind of going back to the roots of what we,

[00:01:00] the question with the questions that I was asking like three and a half years ago, right? So

[00:01:07] what, when you hear the name of the podcast, when you hear the phrase thriving adoptees,

[00:01:12] what comes to mind, Fiona? I think I'm in a good place to answer that at the moment. I think if you'd

[00:01:21] have asked me maybe five years ago, it would have been very different. I think it's take,

[00:01:26] so I'm 47, I'm going to be 48 in March and I only feel now that I'm coming to peace with some of my

[00:01:38] identity. Because I'm not getting the answers I want and I can't get the answers I want. So

[00:01:44] it's about acceptance and, and, and realising that I'm not going to have to wait for information

[00:01:53] anymore because actually I've just got to get on with it. Yeah. So what, what led you to that

[00:02:01] realisation? Therapy.

[00:02:04] Yeah.

[00:02:06] Yeah.

[00:02:06] But also, and I was very, very anti-therapy many years ago. But now I found the right therapist.

[00:02:15] And I started talking to her because of the difficulties I've had with my children. And

[00:02:22] actually it's, it's a lot about the 360 part of me that's healing, not just,

[00:02:30] you know, the adopt a bit or the adoptee bit. It's, it's all of it. And I don't think I'm 100%

[00:02:39] there yet. I think my, I think, what's the phrase survive, survival and thriving. It, it,

[00:02:50] I'm more in the combination of those two words rather than it being thriving. But I'm, I'm,

[00:02:57] you know, like if you saw it as a, as a hundred percent and survivings at one end and thrivings

[00:03:03] at the other, I'm, I'm over 50. So I'm past the 50% and, uh, probably seven, probably 60 or 70

[00:03:13] around. And, and I think, I think it's a journey that adopters, and I can only speak from what I

[00:03:20] know, but sorry, adoptees. It's a journey we go on, but there's no, no end of the string.

[00:03:28] You know, there's the, the, how long is a piece of string? It's as long as it needs to be.

[00:03:33] Yeah.

[00:03:34] And it's an interesting journey because there's a lot of imposter syndrome for me. There's a lot of

[00:03:46] things that I've been doing, um, and just recently I'm shaking a lot of that off.

[00:03:58] Um, and I'm not boxed in as much with my own self-perception of who Fiona is, who,

[00:04:08] who Fiona is, who she presents to the world. And it's quite, uh, freeing. Um, you know,

[00:04:21] even yesterday I spent the day with my family and normally I carry a certain persona around

[00:04:29] and I left bits of it on the floor as I walked by and that felt quite empowering. Um, and, and healing.

[00:04:42] So, um, it's an ongoing journey. I feel like I'm still at the beginning and the end and the middle

[00:04:47] all at the same time because different entities of you, I think as an adoptee, there's different

[00:04:55] driving forces to thrive and you get to bits of the journey before you get to other bits of the

[00:05:02] journey. But yeah, it's very complicated, isn't it? Yeah. Can I take you back a, a, a,

[00:05:11] a bit to, you said that the, the, um, the catalyst, what was the catalyst? I think what you said was

[00:05:23] the catalyst for the therapy was what was going on with your kids. Yeah. Yeah. So would you mind

[00:05:33] sharing a little bit more about that? Yeah. So I'll do this in a general way rather than talking about

[00:05:40] my children. Um, as we know, I'll talk about me first and then I'll talk about general. So I was

[00:05:48] really in Christian 1977, um, by a 22 year old who came from quite a religious family who

[00:05:58] was obviously shamed for being pregnant outside of marriage. Um, um, that broke the family apart.

[00:06:06] So she placed me for adoption with the view that she would never hear or see me ever again.

[00:06:14] And she carried on with life. Um, that's taking me 47, 40, 43 years to really understand that story

[00:06:27] or get that information for that story. So that's been a long process during that time. I've suffered

[00:06:33] infertility and ended up adopting a sibling group of three. Now, obviously people of my generation and

[00:06:44] older or even slightly younger relinquished was what happened. Whereas now children are removed

[00:06:51] because of risk, because of harm, because of abuse, because of trauma. And unfortunately the

[00:06:56] situation that we've got in the country and probably globally, um, is that children are removed after

[00:07:05] something's happened. So after an event or after a period of events or after a really, really long time

[00:07:13] of events, a child is removed. That removal doesn't stop the trauma or the adversity or the damage. And, um,

[00:07:25] children come into care, obviously, and that whether that's adoption or, or fostering or SGO or kinship care,

[00:07:33] the harm is often not really considered or discussed or, you know, we, we look at it for the court purposes.

[00:07:41] And then we kind of do lots of care planning to say, okay, this child needs, you know, to have an education.

[00:07:47] This child needs its identity. This child needs, um, its health needs meeting, but we don't talk about

[00:07:53] the damage that trauma's done. So children who are placed for adoption, SGO, kinship care, fostering,

[00:07:58] often come with tricky behaviors, tricky emotions, tricky, tricky, social, emotional health needs,

[00:08:06] um, the impact on their functioning throughout life. So whether it's learning or whether it's a

[00:08:11] tantrum that's longer than it should be, or anyway, I'm not going to go into all that.

[00:08:16] So we've hit some big, big things, big holes in the road, um, since being a mom, which I can say is now

[00:08:25] 11 years. And during that time, my journey of being adopted and my journey of being an adopter,

[00:08:31] but also my journey of being a social worker who's removed children, who's placed children for adoption

[00:08:37] has become a really big learning journey about all the stages of, of our identity of trauma of, um,

[00:08:49] systems. And I'm still in a position of learning, but obviously when going through the bumps in the road

[00:08:56] with my children, I had to look at myself and I had to look at my own needs and how I was doing.

[00:09:06] And obviously that's all woven in together because my children were removed because of harm,

[00:09:12] risk and adversity. And I was relinquished. So as much as I know some of their potential feelings,

[00:09:19] as they get older, I don't know all of them and they won't know all of mine because it's very,

[00:09:24] very different. It's very, very different. Um, so having therapy was a way of me making sense of the world

[00:09:31] around me. Um, and it, and it helps.

[00:09:35] So when I, um, when I, when I think, when I'm talking to an adoptive parent and I'm listening

[00:09:47] to what they're saying and I'm listening to, for them for the, to try and isolate, you know,

[00:09:55] what, what's the difference that makes the difference when I ask them that question? Um,

[00:10:02] I hear phrases like, well, it's, it's, uh, it's my ability not to take my kids trauma, um, seriously.

[00:10:24] And I hear phrases like, it's about my ability to respond rather than react.

[00:10:35] Those are the sorts of things that I hear from, from adoptive parents. And, and I guess that would

[00:10:45] be that, that would be the same for all parents, really. It's about their,

[00:10:54] their, um, in, in, in, in, in, in a steel, in a resilience, in ability to keep, you know,

[00:11:01] keep calm and carry on and, and that sort of stuff. How do you, how do you see that? How,

[00:11:09] how do you see the difference that makes the difference in parenting?

[00:11:15] I suppose my view is possibly different from a lot of people's. Um, and that's where I'm at

[00:11:26] at the moment with, and why I'm campaigning for different situations, for things to be done

[00:11:32] differently within adoption. Change is needed and it's needed as soon as possible. So when you become a

[00:11:38] parent, you are not automatically equipped with the qualifications and the skills that you would need,

[00:11:51] um, within adoption. And when we don't, when, when children are placed for adoption and nobody

[00:11:59] considers the impact of what they've been through, there's no, there's no plan around healing that

[00:12:06] impact around treating that impact. You know, if you, you've got a broken leg, there's a treatment

[00:12:11] plan. If you've got cancer, there's a treatment plan. Well, trauma is as big a deal as a broken

[00:12:16] leg or cancer, depending on how much or how little, you know, the damage has been done.

[00:12:21] And there's no treatment plan. So as an adopted pair adopter, sorry, my dog's barking. Um,

[00:12:28] I'm not a healer. I can't heal trauma. And that's as simple as it is. I can be a mom. I can love and I

[00:12:38] can, I can give boundaries and I can give hugs and I can do all the normal parenting things. I also,

[00:12:47] because I'm adopted, I can see and promote their identity because that's massive for me.

[00:12:53] My children always know who they are as much as I know who they are, as much as the paperwork tells

[00:12:58] us. And as much as I can do, I will, they've always known they're adopted. They always know

[00:13:04] things about themselves in their timeframe, in their need and that's age appropriate.

[00:13:11] And I think it's about balancing all of those things together as a parent, as a, as an adopted

[00:13:20] parent. But also I suppose the tricky thing is, I think adopters at the moment are set up to fail

[00:13:28] because you can't heal trauma. And if nobody's acknowledging the trauma, then you're very,

[00:13:32] very stuck. So that's where my answer is different to that. You, you can't come through this

[00:13:42] completely without support of external people.

[00:13:46] Yeah. So you, you, you talked about imposter syndrome and you talked about in inadequacy.

[00:14:00] Um, what, what, what's helped you see through that imposter syndrome?

[00:14:11] I think it's more like what's helping me because I don't think I've really

[00:14:18] dealt with it before a couple of years ago.

[00:14:20] Yeah.

[00:14:22] What's helping you then? What, what, what is it that you've seen?

[00:14:25] It's, it seemed to me, it sounds like the syndrome isn't as big as it used to be.

[00:14:32] I think because I have a mission, like, you know, because I'm, I'm gonna, my children have

[00:14:38] been failed by the systems around them. Okay. But I've built a community of other adopters who

[00:14:44] have also been significantly, their children have been significantly failed.

[00:14:49] And I think because I can see it really clearly as an adopter, as an adoptee, and as a social worker,

[00:14:59] I can speak that language. I can speak the language of harm, adversity and trauma in a child's life,

[00:15:08] left unhealed is going to amount to significant social, emotional health needs and learning needs

[00:15:15] for that child. And therefore we're doing everybody a disservice. So because I can see it and I can

[00:15:20] tangibly work it out and I can have a conversation about it, my imposter syndrome kind of goes to the back.

[00:15:30] So because, because you see it systemic, you're realizing it's not personal.

[00:15:36] Yeah. And actually, because I'm working on behalf, well, volunteering, whatever you want to call it,

[00:15:42] because I see the cause and because I can see the purpose in what I'm doing, my imposter syndrome is

[00:15:49] not important. Because actually, unless you come and tell me I'm doing something wrong, which I will

[00:15:55] reflect on if somebody does tell me I'm doing something wrong, then I have to carry on regardless.

[00:16:01] Because I am actually representing lots and lots of people who are struggling and lots and lots of

[00:16:06] children who aren't getting the support they need. So the imposter syndrome isn't, can't be a hurdle in

[00:16:13] the road. It has to be behind me.

[00:16:17] So the, the, the, the, um, you, you basically, you, you're putting that, you're putting that to one side.

[00:16:26] No, no, I'm putting it behind me. Okay.

[00:16:30] And it's not that it's going to be, cause it's not a barrier and I'm putting it to side means it'll come back.

[00:16:37] I'm leaving a little bit of it and it's shrinking behind me. So, you know, look,

[00:16:43] you look back in your wing mirror and you see what's behind you. And the more confident I grow,

[00:16:49] the smaller it gets. Yeah.

[00:16:52] But because I'll never ever do any of what I, I'm not an arrogant person. So whatever I do will never be

[00:16:59] with arrogance or ego. That imposter syndrome can't go because it's always there to remind me that

[00:17:05] actually I have to check in with myself. I have to check in. Am I right? Am I doing the right thing?

[00:17:12] Am I saying the right thing? Am I representing the children that need better from society?

[00:17:18] Yeah.

[00:17:19] So I think it's a really, I suppose that brings it back to thriving. I am thriving because

[00:17:25] I've worked out where my imposter syndrome needs to sit for me to do okay.

[00:17:33] Yeah. I was thinking of all sorts of little stories about that analogy of the, you know,

[00:17:43] where you're looking here. And I think probably the simplest one I have for it is, is something

[00:17:49] that I heard from a guy called a mentor of mine called Richard Wilkins, like 12 years ago,

[00:17:56] maybe something like that. He said, the past is a place of reference, not a place of residence.

[00:18:04] That's it. That's exactly. It is a reference. I, I bring myself back to earth because

[00:18:13] because my imposter syndrome is there. You know, I said to somebody the other day, they emailed me

[00:18:19] and I built a relationship with this person. They emailed me and said, thank you for everything you're

[00:18:23] doing. And I said, I feel like I often feel like an imposter. And she said, well, I think you need to

[00:18:30] read some of the stuff people are saying and to see the things that you are doing more clearly

[00:18:36] and tell the imposter syndrome to go away. But I don't, it's good to reflect on who we are and how

[00:18:43] important the journey that we're taking is. So I, you know, I don't want it. I don't want to lose

[00:18:49] sight of it entirely because it's my, my journey to thriving. You know, I am doing something that's

[00:19:00] amazing. And I'm, you know, I don't know. There's no, oh, amazing what you're doing. It's not,

[00:19:06] it's not about that. I've made sense of what's going wrong to my best of my abilities. And I'm sure

[00:19:13] there's higher intellectual people who could make sense of it in a completely different way.

[00:19:18] But I've made sense of what's going wrong for children who are being placed in the care system now.

[00:19:24] And I can have confidence in my journey and my message there. And therefore the imposter syndrome

[00:19:32] is smaller. Yeah. And less important. Yeah, less important. But then I look back over my childhood.

[00:19:42] So forgetting the adopted, adopting journey in me and the social work journey in me. And I think,

[00:19:49] what was the imposter syndrome? Was it there because I was adopted? Or is it there because

[00:19:56] I grew up with very, very confident parents who were very, very intelligent? And I'm dyslexic and

[00:20:04] struggled at school and therefore really had to work hard at things later on in life after I'd gone

[00:20:11] through my teenage blip. Or is it part of, you know, what, what is it? Which rucksack am I putting

[00:20:18] it? Is it, is it my adopted bit? Is it, is it because I don't know my identity? Is it because

[00:20:23] I was rejected by my birth mum as an adult? You know, she doesn't want to know who I am. She doesn't

[00:20:30] want anything to do with me. What is the imposter syndrome? And the more I challenge the systems,

[00:20:37] the more I think, do you know what? This is my energy needs to be in this and this is more

[00:20:43] important. And then in a way it's like, there's a little spell. It's kind of just disintegrating

[00:20:51] slightly.

[00:20:52] Yeah. There's so much here. The same guy Richard Wilkins talked about something, your, your,

[00:21:06] your, your message becomes bigger than you fear.

[00:21:10] Yes.

[00:21:12] And, and, and that, that's a big shift. And I think that's one of the benefits of, of advocating

[00:21:23] is we kind of like it, especially when you're in the space that you're in, where you're pushing

[00:21:32] for real change. Um, and so the, the imposter syndrome is, well, yeah, but my need for change

[00:21:48] is bigger than the fear that's holding me back. So, uh, advocacy became, becomes a way

[00:21:56] of, um, sidestepping and then pushing and then putting the sidestepping the, um, imposter syndrome

[00:22:04] and then, and there's, but as you say, keeping it at the back.

[00:22:08] Yeah.

[00:22:08] Because I don't want to lose it.

[00:22:10] It does keep me grounded, but I also don't want to trick myself into thinking that it,

[00:22:13] it's not an issue because it is an issue.

[00:22:16] Yeah.

[00:22:17] I would like somebody to tell me whether, where it comes from, because that's always

[00:22:21] peed me off. You know, what part of my core, my history, my identity, what is it? Where

[00:22:30] did it come from? Cause it's always been there.

[00:22:34] Well, I, I, I don't think, um, I'm not asking.

[00:22:40] I think you need to see, I think you need to see it. I think you need to see it for yourself.

[00:22:44] So, um, you know, you're talking about the email that you got from somebody, um, uh, and,

[00:22:49] uh, the thing that was coming into my head, cause I had a nice email today as well. Right.

[00:22:53] Um, uh, and, uh, I asked somebody to come on the podcast and they said, Oh, I've listened

[00:22:58] to your podcast loads of times. I'd be really honored to come on your show.

[00:23:01] Um, uh, brilliant, you know, um, and I, I thought, cause I don't get many of them.

[00:23:06] Right. Um, uh, but what it's not about what other people say.

[00:23:14] It's about what we hear. Yeah.

[00:23:18] It's, it's not about what they point at. It's what we see. We have to see this stuff for our,

[00:23:26] for ourselves. Um, uh, and that, that, that, you know, that's when it becomes, that's when

[00:23:34] it becomes our new reality rather than somebody else's theory.

[00:23:40] Yeah, exactly. So, so I can yesterday. So this is where, like, I'm still on my journey

[00:23:46] of discovery as you know, and yesterday I went and had a, I went to a family event kind of.

[00:23:52] Um, and it was, it was for my dad and he has his own campaign, should we say.

[00:24:04] Um, I volunteered for something that was a bit like out there confidently, publicly, um,

[00:24:12] which wasn't like me. I am very confident. I am very outgoing, but I, but I often are,

[00:24:19] I'm not always going to volunteer for the tricky job around my parents because,

[00:24:26] I don't know, the imposter syndrome. And I just went for it. Um, it felt good. And I,

[00:24:31] you know, I could see that I, by doing what I'd done, I'd made a difference to my dad and it,

[00:24:36] and it felt nice. Um, but I also didn't get bothered by things that I would normally get

[00:24:45] bothered by spending the day with my brother and my mom and my dad and their normal, normal

[00:24:50] family routines of, oh my God, we're going to be late. And oh my God, you've forgotten this.

[00:24:55] And oh my God, that's happened. I didn't get bothered because actually I don't need to.

[00:25:03] And I don't know what that bit's about, but, but I also think that's part, maybe it's not

[00:25:08] imposter syndrome, but it's, that's a, it's a part of me accepting me that I don't have to go along

[00:25:15] with the identity of. And I don't mean this is an anti-adoption thing, the identity of my family.

[00:25:22] I can go with my identity. Now I love my mom and dad and they're my real parents and they brought me

[00:25:28] up and they love me unconditionally a hundred percent. And I love them unconditionally. It

[00:25:32] doesn't mean to say we've got everything right, but we all, we've all tried, but I think part of this

[00:25:40] thriving is me being me learning to be me in whatever shape that comes in, not having to

[00:25:54] be, you know, my mom and dad's daughter or not having to be my brother's sister. We're not

[00:25:59] biologically related, not having to be whatever the typecast has told me I have to be. I feel like

[00:26:09] I'm accepting myself a little bit more. And by accepting myself a little bit more, I can say,

[00:26:16] well, take it or leave it. So thriving is more about being than feeling.

[00:26:24] Yeah. So, so I was, I'm always been somebody who wants to please my parents.

[00:26:31] I sound awful, don't I say that? And I've always struggled to say no, because this inferiority,

[00:26:39] this imposter syndrome, whatever you call it, if it's, you know, an impact of being adopted,

[00:26:47] I don't know what it is, but I've always felt like I'm a lesser person. So when my mom and dad ask me

[00:26:55] for something or when, when they say, oh, we need this from you, or I've always said yes. And if I've

[00:27:01] said, if I haven't, I've always felt very, oh, you know, really tense and like giving myself a hard

[00:27:08] time. And recently I've just gone, no. And it feels so good because I'm just me.

[00:27:19] See, I think thriving, one sort of symptom of thriving, shall we say, is being bothered less.

[00:27:27] Yes. And that's, that's it. And it's taken a long time. And there's the, you know, there's loads

[00:27:31] of me to, to do that in the future, but like, I don't know, something like they wanted to take my son

[00:27:37] to a football match and, and it's just not convenient. And normally I would make an effort to,

[00:27:42] to change everything. And, and, you know, cause they love my children and they, my children love them.

[00:27:49] And I would usually bend over backwards to make sure that everything was done. And I just said, no.

[00:27:56] And it seems minutiae, but to me, it was massive. I felt so proud of myself.

[00:28:02] I don't have to please people all the time. I don't have to say yes all the time.

[00:28:06] Don't have to feel, I always feel guilty for having opinions, but, but actually you, you don't,

[00:28:12] if people don't like your opinions, they don't need to listen, you know? And I think, you know,

[00:28:20] I've still got a long way to go. And I think, I think we need more conversations about what it is

[00:28:25] to be adopted because I think we are different. It doesn't matter which side of the coin, you know,

[00:28:31] I work with people who are adopted. I work with people who, who are adopters, you know, it's,

[00:28:39] it's, it's, it's, you know, my, my mum wasn't able to have biological children. I wasn't able to have

[00:28:44] biological children, but me and my mum and my daughter, we look like each other, you know,

[00:28:50] there's, there's many things I'm grateful in the world for. And I, and part of my thriving

[00:28:59] is coming to terms or not coming to terms, is celebrating the fact I didn't get raised by a

[00:29:07] woman I cannot relate to, who, when I see a picture somewhat horrifies me. And I'm grateful for that

[00:29:18] because I can tell by her face, I would not have liked her. And that is part of this thriving journey

[00:29:26] is coming to terms with, actually, I'm okay to say that and I'm okay to feel it. And,

[00:29:32] and, you know, I've, I've spent a long time feeling guilty for that thing that blew up in a world.

[00:29:37] And, you know, I wanted to make my journey of identifying who I was was about me saying to

[00:29:44] her, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that I came and blew up your world and made such a mess of your life.

[00:29:51] Whereas now I'm like, well, do you know what, it's yours, because I'm okay. My mum and dad

[00:29:59] aren't perfect. And they've done some amazing mistakes that every parent pulls. But I am so glad

[00:30:07] that I was theirs and not hers.

[00:30:12] What does your therapist say about you blowing up your birth mother's world?

[00:30:25] She, she's, she checks why I think that. And we talk a lot about perception. And fact,

[00:30:36] do you know that that's what, no, I, well, yeah, I do. But, and, and it comes down to that.

[00:30:43] But it also comes down to me knowing me and knowing that I would give, I'm not saying I'm a

[00:30:51] generous person, but I would give people answers and time. And, you know, with my own children who

[00:30:59] ask questions about their identity, I sit with them and I let them feel what they feel. I don't

[00:31:06] tell them what to feel. I don't tell them how to feel. I don't put parameters on it or gates on it

[00:31:10] or boundaries on it. They're allowed to feel what they want to feel. Whereas the letter I got off my

[00:31:17] birth mum in whatever year it was saying, I didn't think I'd ever have to have this conversation with

[00:31:24] you. I don't, I don't know what that did to me at the time, but I was horrified that somebody could,

[00:31:35] I mean, she said more than that, but I can't remember. It was, it was, it was very much,

[00:31:39] I didn't want to have this conversation. I didn't think you'd ever be able to find me.

[00:31:44] She never met me, so she doesn't know how savvy I am. But I, I would never have said that to

[00:31:51] somebody. No. No, yeah. Well, that, that letter may have blown up her world, but your arrival on

[00:32:06] the planet, you, you, you sent the letter, right? But you didn't cause your own birth.

[00:32:14] No. And, and it took me a long time to shift from feeling guilty to thinking you're a dick. Pardon my

[00:32:27] French. You, you're an arse for spending your whole life not confronting this. And I suppose that's,

[00:32:37] you know, that we go back to thriving with, again, I think the facts remain. I, I absolutely adore and

[00:32:45] love my parents, right? And there's so much in my mum and dad that I am. My dad's a gobshy. I'm a

[00:32:52] gobshy. He's mischievous at 84. I'm always going to be mischievous. You know, my mum's a very caring

[00:32:59] person. I'm not quite as caring as she is, but I'm caring. You know, she's a bit ditzy. I'm a bit

[00:33:05] ditzy. There's lots and lots of things I can identify with my parents. Um, and I, and I suppose the,

[00:33:14] the journey of self-discovery is seeking to identify the parts of you that you don't know.

[00:33:21] And, and part of my thriving is realizing that I don't want or need to identify with her because

[00:33:28] she doesn't represent me in the slightest. I don't look like her. I don't act like her.

[00:33:33] And she's been hiding away from this dirty secret that I am, you know, but, but that's her bag.

[00:33:43] That's not mine. I am nothing to be ashamed of. And if she can't confront that, that's her issue.

[00:33:52] But I also went through a journey of respect for her in the sense of, oh, well, I've emailed her once,

[00:33:59] so I won't do it again. And I'll sit in my little corner where she wanted me to be and, and all the rest.

[00:34:04] No, I have a right to the information. If it means I have to ask 20 times and I still don't get an answer,

[00:34:10] I'm not going to feel bad about it. And that's part of thriving, thriving, because again, it's acceptance.

[00:34:19] I don't have to feel things that I've told myself I have to feel because I have, and I, you know, I'm, I'm,

[00:34:28] I'm in therapy, you know, the phrase I'm in therapy. I don't see it as therapy. It's making sense of my world.

[00:34:36] And I wish we could rename it because it would take the stereotype away of therapy.

[00:34:42] It's making sense of your world, of your feelings, of your identity, of how you function or how you're not functioning or,

[00:34:50] you know, and I'm not, I have not like lots of different people have lots of different types of needs around therapy.

[00:34:58] Mine is a choice. I want to make sense of the world around me because it makes me lose a bit of that imposter syndrome,

[00:35:08] makes me thrive. And it helps my children thrive, which we've not had an easy journey and we're never going to have an easy journey.

[00:35:17] And it's always going to have really big bumps in the road. But you know what?

[00:35:21] I was a bump in the road too. So as long as we try and do it together and we don't try and hide from things and we confront things and we have open conversations,

[00:35:33] like, yeah, I don't know, you know, like, you know, I'm very blunt.

[00:35:38] So when my daughter says, Oh my God, why have I got freckles on my left arm?

[00:35:43] And I'm like, well, you didn't come out of my vagina, love. So I have no idea.

[00:35:47] You know, you've got to be honest and you've got to be transparent and you've got to not make light of things,

[00:35:54] but you've got to be open.

[00:35:56] And without that, I don't think you can thrive. And I've met lots of adopters who won't talk about being adopted.

[00:36:08] And I think that's, that's a travesty for me because we have to make sense of where we came from.

[00:36:14] We have to make sense of who we are and you can do that privately.

[00:36:18] Absolutely. But you've still got to do it because you can't make the best of yourself unless, you know,

[00:36:26] a lot of yourself. I'm never, I don't think anybody ever knows themselves a hundred percent,

[00:36:30] but you've got to make a lot of yourself. You've got to know a lot of yourself. Sorry.

[00:36:34] Yeah. But self is a word that's kind of banded around a lot.

[00:36:41] What do you mean by self?

[00:36:45] That's what I'm making sense of.

[00:36:47] So, so I suppose there's,

[00:36:51] there's been hurdles in my life that I haven't probably made the right decisions.

[00:36:57] Um, about many of them.

[00:37:00] And because I've been on those journeys, um, you know,

[00:37:05] toxic relationships and kind of running away from my lack of capacity to sit in school and learn.

[00:37:14] And I tried to run to things that weren't me because I felt that's what I had to do.

[00:37:23] So self is, is my,

[00:37:28] I am trying to make sense of myself now.

[00:37:37] So, so the, the, the, we use it in different contexts, right?

[00:37:41] So one of the things that I was thinking about earlier on,

[00:37:45] you know, you're talking about intelligence and, um, for me,

[00:37:51] I saw some amazing, uh,

[00:37:56] amazing stats on how much more important emotional is emotional intelligence is.

[00:38:08] Yeah.

[00:38:09] You know, what people call EQ, EQ, sorry,

[00:38:13] I hate to use this word Trump's IQ,

[00:38:16] but it, it, it knocks it completely out of the ballpark.

[00:38:20] Right.

[00:38:20] So I'm doing an American,

[00:38:21] I mean,

[00:38:21] I'm doing an American,

[00:38:22] an American, uh,

[00:38:23] that's right there.

[00:38:24] Uh, and I,

[00:38:25] I wanted to say that,

[00:38:26] uh, um,

[00:38:28] Fiona said gobshite,

[00:38:29] um,

[00:38:31] which I was going to translate for,

[00:38:33] for, uh,

[00:38:34] our visitors from across the pond,

[00:38:36] but I couldn't come up with a word.

[00:38:37] It basically,

[00:38:38] she said opinionated.

[00:38:39] And I think,

[00:38:40] you know,

[00:38:41] in,

[00:38:41] in some of the things that you just said in the last couple of minutes ago,

[00:38:44] you've described what being a gobshite is,

[00:38:47] is,

[00:38:47] is like,

[00:38:48] and I can relate,

[00:38:49] right?

[00:38:49] Cause I'm a,

[00:38:50] I'm a gobshite too.

[00:38:51] So we,

[00:38:52] as gobshites,

[00:38:53] we,

[00:38:53] uh,

[00:38:53] we,

[00:38:54] we,

[00:38:54] we say what we think we can be a bit blunt.

[00:38:56] We can be a bit opinionated.

[00:38:58] We can sometimes cheese people off.

[00:39:00] I think those are kind of essential.

[00:39:01] I think that's a really good.

[00:39:03] Of gobshite.

[00:39:05] Absolutely.

[00:39:06] So,

[00:39:09] EQ,

[00:39:10] emotional intelligence is way,

[00:39:11] way,

[00:39:12] way more important than,

[00:39:15] um,

[00:39:17] than IQ,

[00:39:18] than intelligence quotient,

[00:39:20] which is more like intellect.

[00:39:22] And one of the things of one of the,

[00:39:26] the first kind of pillar,

[00:39:28] I think it's four pillars of emotional intelligence for running is,

[00:39:31] is,

[00:39:32] self-awareness,

[00:39:33] right?

[00:39:34] But what's,

[00:39:35] but what self-awareness means is being aware of your behavior.

[00:39:42] Okay.

[00:39:42] So that,

[00:39:43] that,

[00:39:44] that self-awareness is,

[00:39:45] is usually referred to in,

[00:39:47] in that sense,

[00:39:48] you know,

[00:39:48] like,

[00:39:48] um,

[00:39:49] well,

[00:39:49] he's not very,

[00:39:50] Simon isn't very self-aware because he says stuff because he's a gobshite and he

[00:39:55] upsets people and he doesn't realize that he's done it.

[00:39:58] Right.

[00:39:58] So,

[00:39:58] so that's self-awareness,

[00:40:00] right?

[00:40:00] But then you've got the kind of the self of self-esteem,

[00:40:03] which is related to,

[00:40:05] um,

[00:40:06] you know,

[00:40:06] like the,

[00:40:07] the,

[00:40:08] you know,

[00:40:08] what the imposter syndrome,

[00:40:10] inadequacy,

[00:40:11] um,

[00:40:13] uh,

[00:40:13] insufficiency feeling that we're less than,

[00:40:15] uh,

[00:40:16] and I came up with something on this.

[00:40:18] I love,

[00:40:19] uh,

[00:40:20] a,

[00:40:20] um,

[00:40:21] and somebody reminded me of this yesterday.

[00:40:25] Actually,

[00:40:25] I got,

[00:40:25] yeah,

[00:40:25] a nice message yesterday and a nice message today.

[00:40:28] So good days.

[00:40:29] Um,

[00:40:30] something,

[00:40:31] uh,

[00:40:31] so insufficiency,

[00:40:35] right?

[00:40:36] It's so beyond the ache of insufficiency is the relief of sufficiency,

[00:40:45] right?

[00:40:45] The relief of adequacy,

[00:40:47] the relief of realizing that we are enough.

[00:40:52] Uh,

[00:40:54] and beyond that is the,

[00:40:58] uh,

[00:40:59] the ecstasy of infinity,

[00:41:02] right?

[00:41:02] So it's realizing,

[00:41:04] uh,

[00:41:05] uh,

[00:41:06] our infinite,

[00:41:07] our infinite value,

[00:41:09] right?

[00:41:09] So that the,

[00:41:10] the diamond of thriving adoptees,

[00:41:12] that's got a market,

[00:41:13] a diamond has a market value.

[00:41:15] It is fixed by the market.

[00:41:17] It goes up and down.

[00:41:18] Whereas our value as adoptees is,

[00:41:21] is,

[00:41:22] is infinite,

[00:41:24] right?

[00:41:24] Your kid's value,

[00:41:26] your kid's value is infinite,

[00:41:29] right?

[00:41:30] You,

[00:41:30] you,

[00:41:31] you,

[00:41:31] you give the world for your kid.

[00:41:33] So,

[00:41:34] so self,

[00:41:36] self awareness is,

[00:41:38] is kind of,

[00:41:39] um,

[00:41:41] awareness of our behavior.

[00:41:42] Self-esteem is about our value.

[00:41:44] And then,

[00:41:45] um,

[00:41:46] self-critical is kind of criticizing,

[00:41:49] uh,

[00:41:49] you know,

[00:41:50] one part of ourselves,

[00:41:51] criticizing the other part of ourselves.

[00:41:53] So this word self is used in so many different,

[00:42:00] in so many different ways.

[00:42:02] No wonder we're confused because it's used in different ways.

[00:42:07] It's using,

[00:42:07] so we have to kind of come to our own,

[00:42:14] our own definition.

[00:42:18] Of self.

[00:42:18] And the closest thing that I've got to is this diamond as a metaphor.

[00:42:26] So the diamond doesn't,

[00:42:29] um,

[00:42:30] the diamond doesn't need to go on a self-esteem course.

[00:42:34] No.

[00:42:35] Um,

[00:42:36] the diamond's value is inherent.

[00:42:39] I've already said that there's a limitation to the metaphor because we're

[00:42:44] talking about our infinite value rather than,

[00:42:49] uh,

[00:42:49] than a gemstone's finite value.

[00:42:51] But we've really got to play around.

[00:42:55] We've really got to explore what that,

[00:42:58] uh,

[00:42:59] that,

[00:43:00] that,

[00:43:01] that self is.

[00:43:02] And,

[00:43:03] and,

[00:43:03] and that,

[00:43:04] and,

[00:43:05] and yet that diamond is,

[00:43:07] it is hidden in the trauma.

[00:43:12] It's hidden in the feelings.

[00:43:16] uh,

[00:43:16] it's hidden in the,

[00:43:18] uh,

[00:43:18] imposter syndrome.

[00:43:19] So this is an excavation job.

[00:43:23] This is.

[00:43:24] It really is.

[00:43:25] And if you don't have somebody to make sense of it.

[00:43:31] So for instance,

[00:43:32] if I didn't talk to my children about their adoptee journey,

[00:43:37] and I might not have always the right answers or the right responses,

[00:43:40] but at least I'm helping them think.

[00:43:43] I'm not putting my opinions on them.

[00:43:45] I can tell them about me and I can tell them what I know about them.

[00:43:50] And then there's this massive space for them to work outside their self,

[00:43:55] for them to excavate themselves.

[00:43:58] So my daughter now is teenage.

[00:44:00] She's got questions.

[00:44:01] I need to help her and get those answers in a safe way.

[00:44:06] But she has a right to those answers.

[00:44:09] And I was thinking about it when you were saying earlier,

[00:44:12] you know,

[00:44:13] uh,

[00:44:14] I suppose being adopted,

[00:44:19] I'm looking at a diagram.

[00:44:20] Cause I drew it being adopted was a weight on my life.

[00:44:25] And it held me back in many ways,

[00:44:28] but now it's a balloon and it's lifting me because I'm helping other people.

[00:44:34] And I'm making sense of myself.

[00:44:36] So that balloon is lift.

[00:44:37] It's like,

[00:44:38] so if you see it as like,

[00:44:40] you know,

[00:44:41] this is the C,

[00:44:42] this is the up,

[00:44:43] this is the down.

[00:44:44] The anchor is,

[00:44:46] is going up.

[00:44:48] You know,

[00:44:49] that,

[00:44:49] that I don't know myself.

[00:44:52] I don't know who I am was always a massive anchor,

[00:44:57] not in a,

[00:44:58] not in an anchor as in a good thing,

[00:45:00] but holding me back,

[00:45:01] not,

[00:45:02] not letting me see myself.

[00:45:05] Yeah.

[00:45:06] Whereas now,

[00:45:07] because I'm using it for something different,

[00:45:12] it's lifting my sense of self.

[00:45:14] And it's helping me develop me.

[00:45:19] So,

[00:45:19] um,

[00:45:20] uh,

[00:45:20] another,

[00:45:22] this is a,

[00:45:23] another mentor of mine.

[00:45:26] And she is an adoptee in the sense that her stepdad in,

[00:45:31] um,

[00:45:31] adopted her at two great lady called Sammy Blindell.

[00:45:36] And she's the reason I'm doing the podcast,

[00:45:39] right?

[00:45:40] Cause I was,

[00:45:41] I spoke to her like three and a half years ago and she said,

[00:45:44] Oh,

[00:45:44] so you're enjoying being a guest on the podcast.

[00:45:46] But yes,

[00:45:47] well,

[00:45:47] it's time for you to do your own one side.

[00:45:50] Um,

[00:45:51] uh,

[00:45:53] Sammy says,

[00:45:54] um,

[00:45:56] uh,

[00:45:56] our mess becomes our message.

[00:46:00] Yeah.

[00:46:02] And I was thinking about,

[00:46:04] I was thinking about metaphors,

[00:46:08] water metaphors,

[00:46:09] like you talked about the anchor and stuff.

[00:46:11] Like I was thinking about that,

[00:46:12] um,

[00:46:15] this lunchtime as I was swimming.

[00:46:17] Right.

[00:46:17] So,

[00:46:17] you know,

[00:46:18] when,

[00:46:18] if you've got,

[00:46:19] um,

[00:46:21] you've got a cargo ship or a container ship,

[00:46:25] right?

[00:46:25] It sits very low in the water.

[00:46:27] Yeah.

[00:46:28] When it's heavily loaded.

[00:46:30] Right.

[00:46:31] And then they,

[00:46:31] they take the cargo off with the cranes and the containers.

[00:46:35] And as they do that,

[00:46:37] the,

[00:46:37] um,

[00:46:39] the,

[00:46:39] the boat rises.

[00:46:41] And you can see more of the boat.

[00:46:45] Mm hmm.

[00:46:46] And,

[00:46:47] and,

[00:46:47] and that's what I think.

[00:46:50] I think that's a great metaphor for the thriving journey because we're revealing more and more of ourselves as,

[00:47:00] as the load gets lighter.

[00:47:02] So Holly Ann Petrie,

[00:47:03] um,

[00:47:04] runs a,

[00:47:05] uh,

[00:47:07] she's an adopted mom.

[00:47:08] Uh,

[00:47:08] she's in Texas.

[00:47:09] She runs an adoption agency in Texas,

[00:47:12] uh,

[00:47:13] called,

[00:47:13] ah,

[00:47:15] Addis Hope.

[00:47:16] And she talks,

[00:47:18] she was the one that gave me the,

[00:47:20] uh,

[00:47:20] the metaphor of unpacking our own emotion,

[00:47:23] our own emotional baggage as adopted parents,

[00:47:26] but unpacking our own emotional baggage as human beings.

[00:47:29] Right.

[00:47:29] You know,

[00:47:30] like,

[00:47:30] so as we unpack the baggage,

[00:47:33] as we unload the baggage,

[00:47:36] the boat,

[00:47:38] the,

[00:47:38] the boat,

[00:47:39] um,

[00:47:42] uh,

[00:47:42] yeah,

[00:47:43] right.

[00:47:44] The boat rises.

[00:47:45] And I'm guessing boats that are rising are going to go,

[00:47:50] they're going to go faster.

[00:47:51] They're going to be a bit more nimble.

[00:47:53] You know,

[00:47:55] I'm thinking,

[00:47:56] I'm mixing my metaphors here,

[00:47:57] but I learned to water ski when I was about 10.

[00:48:01] And about 10 years on,

[00:48:03] I learned to water ski on one and you're way more nimble.

[00:48:08] Like on,

[00:48:09] on,

[00:48:09] on two,

[00:48:09] on,

[00:48:09] on two water skis,

[00:48:11] you know,

[00:48:12] like you,

[00:48:13] you,

[00:48:14] it takes you.

[00:48:16] You know,

[00:48:17] but you know,

[00:48:18] you're more agile.

[00:48:20] So when they're doing the slalom,

[00:48:21] I mean,

[00:48:21] I never did,

[00:48:22] I never got that good,

[00:48:23] but when they're doing the slalom,

[00:48:24] they do the slalom on one ski.

[00:48:27] There is no,

[00:48:28] no way on earth or worth on water that they would be able to do the slalom on two skis at,

[00:48:36] the same speed.

[00:48:37] It just,

[00:48:37] it just,

[00:48:38] it just wouldn't happen.

[00:48:39] So we're revealing,

[00:48:42] thriving is revealing more and more of,

[00:48:44] of the boat.

[00:48:45] If,

[00:48:45] if that's us,

[00:48:46] if that's our metaphor for us and,

[00:48:49] and we're moving,

[00:48:51] we're moving more nimbly.

[00:48:53] We are navigating life more easily.

[00:48:57] We are learning from our mistakes quicker.

[00:49:01] We're bouncing back quicker from the moments,

[00:49:06] when,

[00:49:06] uh,

[00:49:07] we realize that we put a foot,

[00:49:08] a foot,

[00:49:09] a foot wrong or two feet wrong,

[00:49:12] you know,

[00:49:13] that.

[00:49:14] Yeah.

[00:49:15] And I think it's also about self forgiveness,

[00:49:18] you know,

[00:49:20] as so many things I've got wrong,

[00:49:23] but actually that's humanity.

[00:49:27] We do things wrong.

[00:49:29] Um,

[00:49:30] and I'm,

[00:49:31] and I think thriving is,

[00:49:33] is about all of that.

[00:49:34] I suppose my wish for,

[00:49:36] for the future Fiona's and the future Simon's and the future everybody's is that people get to make sense of it quicker so that it doesn't hold you down as that anchor.

[00:49:45] You know,

[00:49:46] if I'd have known these things at 27,

[00:49:49] where would I be now?

[00:49:50] And I don't mean financially or,

[00:49:52] you know,

[00:49:52] career wise,

[00:49:53] but just within me,

[00:49:55] within me,

[00:49:56] where would I be?

[00:49:57] I would have been in a different,

[00:49:59] a better place.

[00:50:01] Um,