From Insufficient To Infinite With Jeff Forney

[00:00:00] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast today. I'm

[00:00:07] delighted to be joined by Jeff Jeff, fully back on the show again. Right?

[00:00:11] Thanks for having me. It's been too long. It's been too long.

[00:00:15] So healing, everybody talks about healing. What does healing mean to you, Jeff?

[00:00:22] Well, I think I gave it some thought when you told me this is the subject and I really

[00:00:29] and we just kind of mentioned it as we were just kind of shooting the breeze here before we star

[00:00:34] this. It's the gratitude and staying in a grateful spot with life and because the more I stay in that

[00:00:45] gratefulness, the feeling of not being enough in life dissipates. The comparison to what was

[00:00:57] there life like being raised by biological parents? I didn't have that. If I stay in gratitude,

[00:01:05] all of those things that can kind of eat away dissipate and they get lessened and

[00:01:14] I, as I've said before, my adoption experience was not that there isn't trauma that come,

[00:01:22] that is there's... Not that there are some things we're not dealing with. The term trauma

[00:01:30] is also one that we can discuss what that really means but I had an upbringing that I really am.

[00:01:41] I'm grateful for what I did have and staying in that spot really, then I feel less of a need to

[00:01:51] compare and to feel less than to other people. And it's weird, you know, you and I both do a lot

[00:02:06] in the adoption community, you interviewing and myself photographing and hearing stories.

[00:02:13] And a lot of times people have a real anger towards growing up and I get it. Some people raised

[00:02:24] transracial adoptees and raised by parents are not of their race, of their ethnicity,

[00:02:30] prefer to say, but so there's no one to mirror off of. But you know what if we were all spiritual beings

[00:02:41] out there in the heavens all equal and we all... What if we were the ones that were up for the big

[00:02:48] challenge? Someone said, hey Simon, you want to come to earth? You're going to have a little bit

[00:02:52] of a challenge. You're going to be raised by parents that are not technically your blood,

[00:02:58] but we think you can handle it and I think you and I probably said, I can do it. So yes, sometimes

[00:03:04] there's challenges here and sometimes our other adoptive compatriots, you know, there are things that

[00:03:13] you know can be tough. But what if this is what we signed up for and this is what we're going to

[00:03:20] slog it out and do? And when we get back to that big campfire in the sky one day, you and I are

[00:03:26] going to have a great story to tell because we had those extra challenges that we felt we were

[00:03:32] up to doing. So I, you know, I know there was that phrase or metaphor like life, this is just a test

[00:03:39] and it's only a test. Had this been a real situation then blah, blah, blah. But in a way life

[00:03:46] is a test because we're here on this human... We're spiritual beings on this human journey

[00:03:53] and we're giving it a go and so yeah maybe it's a tough one but that's what perhaps that's what

[00:04:00] we signed up for. So I try to look at it a little bit of a spin like that and if I feel like,

[00:04:07] if I can, if I look at it that this was something that I was presented as a challenge and

[00:04:14] took the challenge up as an adoptive on earth, it I feel more like all right so yeah,

[00:04:20] I got a little bit of a tougher draw than most but let's make the best out of it. Let's you know

[00:04:27] so that was a very long-winded kind of response. There's plenty there man. There's plenty there.

[00:04:32] That's good. Like we've got a lot to get together so it's good that there's stuff to talk about.

[00:04:39] So what do you see as the kind of the difference between something that you're talking about

[00:04:51] seems to me to be like a spontaneous gratitude from within compared to this kind of force gratitude

[00:05:00] from without you know we're told that we should be grateful and that great that that great

[00:05:07] with us but what you're talking about is a gratitude from within right? Yes, yes and yes I know

[00:05:16] a lot of people you know growing up, hey I'm adoptive and they're like oh aren't you lucky

[00:05:23] you know and maybe I mentioned before last time I was here you know I had a friend whose mom passed

[00:05:28] away in third grade and everybody he got to grieve and they talked about it. Well nobody

[00:05:36] you know my mom died when I was three days old nobody I didn't get any of that you know I got

[00:05:44] hey you're a lucky guy so and yes I think coming from somebody else it's not a very helpful thing

[00:05:58] to hear it on the outside but as I you know looked at it more in the adoption and looking

[00:06:06] at life as an entity in itself the fact that I am here on earth I was not taking the Mexico and

[00:06:14] aborted in Tijuana because I was before Roe V Wade. I'm just grateful I've got you know a family

[00:06:25] and I got Aaron my lungs in a heartbeat in my chest so I'm trying to look at it you know yes we've

[00:06:32] we've got different set of challenges but I'm grateful for everything that's coming so

[00:06:38] and it makes for better conversation at the dinner table you know it's it throws a little dynamic

[00:06:45] that maybe when we were younger yeah we are kind of angry that people would tell us we have to be

[00:06:50] so grateful but now I am grateful that but it's coming from within and that I've got something that

[00:06:59] you know we're a little more unique than the other other people around yeah so did you remember when

[00:07:06] this sort of this spontaneous gratitude do you remember the first time you kind of felt that sort

[00:07:14] that idea popped into your head or I think I think it's been so I think it's been there but I think

[00:07:23] it's gotten bigger and the more I've understood it but I I was kind of you know even high school

[00:07:33] university I I think I even had a there's little signs of it even back then I just I am

[00:07:43] an optimist and I do see things glass half full so from there though learning more about

[00:07:57] adoption in my life and even as a parent you know I that's another thing adoptive parents parents

[00:08:07] that have children that's a whole you know I had a little learning moment with my younger daughter

[00:08:13] last week and I told her I'm like you know I'm still dealing with some adoption stuff and I behaved

[00:08:22] poorly in that situation I'm sorry I reacted it was something that was more deep seated within me

[00:08:29] and there's so there's there's things to learn in that realm too but yeah shoot I kind of lost what

[00:08:40] you were saying there but yeah I feel that it's gotten I've learned more as I've gone along and

[00:08:48] gotten stronger in my idea of the uniqueness of it all yeah yeah and it's a so maybe my missus haven't

[00:08:57] got any kids we were very close unfortunately her she was very close to her uncle that died

[00:09:05] he died like two years ago and so close that she actually gave him one of her kidneys right and

[00:09:12] the guy didn't the guy didn't last long after he got this kidney unfortunately and so this is

[00:09:19] nothing to do with adoption but this is to everything to do with parenting this this little example

[00:09:24] I'm going so he was his father was you know abused abused him physically and you know it's an

[00:09:34] alcoholic and he used to beat up beat on his wife used to beat on his kid and when that

[00:09:45] so this guy's good Brian when Brian saw his son for the first time he had this huge epiphany moment

[00:09:56] that came to him that he was not going to beat how his father was to him he was going to be a

[00:10:04] completely different doubt he didn't have a great you know the opposite of a role model in his own

[00:10:11] father and he was you know completely churned on it its head and you know they're becoming a father

[00:10:20] or a mother I'm sure is a very profound found moment yeah yeah it was when I you know yeah I would

[00:10:35] be changing diapers and you know in the middle of the night and just kind of having emotional moments

[00:10:42] for myself in that I didn't have this so to speak to have my own biological mother or father

[00:10:48] around and they'll never have to deal with that and you know I have still not ever taken a flight

[00:10:57] with my wife and I have never taken a flight by ourselves since the kids we travel as a family

[00:11:06] together sometimes my wife and I drive up to San Francisco from Los Angeles on in a car but

[00:11:14] are there something that I don't want to abandon my children I know when they turn 18 and their

[00:11:20] adults and I'm going to have a less control of it but I we've never and I realize it's something

[00:11:29] that I've kind of been I've always kind of plan I've directed it this way the last 16 and a half

[00:11:37] years well yeah I won't get on a plane with my wife and leave my two kids at home I would

[00:11:44] I would be just I would not like to leave them on their own so my wife has flown with a child

[00:11:52] or I have flown or we haven't done that so there's something still I don't want to be I don't want

[00:11:58] to abandon or have what happened to me and due to my children so there's there's still things

[00:12:03] that I'm still dealing with yeah at this age middle age you know yeah so how do you see these two

[00:12:12] things fitting together this kind of internal gratitude and and this I think you know it's a

[00:12:23] counter you're you're you're talking about the internal gratitude your gratitude being a counter

[00:12:30] force if you like to to this feeling of not being enough how do those two things

[00:12:35] interact relate to one another how does silly it's so how does my gratitude interact

[00:12:45] you we've all got this fear as a doctor is that we're there we're not enough right and we're

[00:12:51] not enough and we're and we're fatal off more rejection on the basis that we're not not enough

[00:13:00] and life is about seeing through that and seeing through that belief you know and that comes off

[00:13:09] the back of the trauma so how does you talked about gratitude for life and you talked about this

[00:13:18] in this gratitude counter being like a counter force to your feeling not you know not not being

[00:13:29] how do those two things relate I think when I dip into those moments of not being enough I have

[00:13:40] gotten better at being kinder to myself um I think in the past I can be pretty

[00:13:51] hard on myself but if I look at how my childhood and the relinquishment kind of affect things I

[00:14:01] I try to allow myself more leeway with stuff and I try to talk to the inner child like you know

[00:14:13] the way I would talk to a friend if a friend came to me and said hey I don't know if I'm good

[00:14:17] enough for this job what would I say to my friend like you didn't get that job because you're

[00:14:23] horrible at it you got it because you deserve it this is what you know I'm trying to talk to myself

[00:14:30] more like I would to a friend or to my family member because we can we can say pretty harsh

[00:14:36] things to ourselves and I'm I really kind of learned that saying treat myself like I would

[00:14:44] someone else that like it's Simon if you came to me and said hey I'm a little concerned about

[00:14:49] this Jeff and also and I would give you all the reasons why you are doing exactly what you should

[00:14:56] be doing why you deserve to be doing this why your podcast is doing well like I would tell you

[00:15:01] all these things and I think that helps lessen that that inadequacy and I really you know the more

[00:15:12] grateful I am they kind of one kind of takes over the other and they or they mesh together but

[00:15:20] now it's only 30% not good enough and 70% city and gratitude sometimes but I want to get to 80%

[00:15:28] 90% though always be a little something but I really I really feel like we can spin it in our

[00:15:40] head as why we're here and you know I was listening to this other uh Gabor Mate you know and he was

[00:15:48] he was saying something but it applied to being adopted someone was saying or maybe someone did

[00:15:54] ask what would you say to an adoptee who doesn't you know I don't remember the question

[00:16:01] Gabor responded and said anybody who feels that like they were unloved or that why did I get these

[00:16:08] parents or how do I end up here with this life well something more empowered more important than your

[00:16:16] your parents why'd you hear and that's called the universe and the universe is up here and parents

[00:16:21] are down here something you needed to be here for some reason the universe needed you here they needed

[00:16:27] Simon here they needed Jeff here so that we could do this and help others in our community so

[00:16:34] um it's a it's a nice way of looking at it um that there is still a purpose for us even though we've

[00:16:42] got you know we have more challenges um we're here to learn and whatever we do learn share with

[00:16:50] others that we can all help each other out yeah so this is a sense of us being big at the now

[00:16:58] least that we're not good enough yes I believe we are totally bigger than our beliefs a lot times

[00:17:06] are limiting um the things we tell ourselves and we're we're diamonds we're we are we are

[00:17:15] stardust my friend we are of the stars and we can we are all stars we can all do whatever we want

[00:17:23] really and the one thing that I got I you know some adoptees um feel like well I my

[00:17:33] I was raised by Caucasian parents and I was African-American and I didn't

[00:17:38] and I get there's challenges there but um at the same time and I was raised by Caucasian

[00:17:48] but I also didn't have uh sometimes other adoptees have the issue of

[00:17:53] assimilating with their parents or I couldn't be like them because I was not them I felt out of place

[00:18:01] in a way my being adopted was a freedom for me I didn't feel beholden to be my dad was in

[00:18:11] finance my mom's a schoolteacher I didn't feel beholden to do what my dad did

[00:18:18] I didn't feel beholden to do it my mom did because they knew and I knew I was not that

[00:18:25] and I it gave me an odd freedom that when and especially this is happening at university

[00:18:32] when I told them hey I might get into a little something else or I might not necessarily use my

[00:18:36] degree at this moment might get into photography or you know modeling and then photography

[00:18:43] it was I felt like there was not it was it felt it wasn't I wasn't so concerned for their reaction

[00:18:53] and I felt like they were gonna understand it more because they knew I was not of them so it kind

[00:18:59] of gave me a freedom to be who I wanted and um I know some adoptees can see it as it really

[00:19:06] limited me and I got stuck and I never got to be around my um you know my you know my biological roots

[00:19:16] but if you look at a different way it allows you to create your you have your own palette to

[00:19:23] paint on I wasn't painting with a brush that came from my mom or dad because I can't hold

[00:19:31] that brush I biologically can't hold that same brush so it kind of gave me a freedom to be

[00:19:39] unique yeah I came up with this uh I came up with this progression uh idea and sometimes

[00:19:49] sometimes last last year and it was it was the the the anguish of not the anguish of not

[00:20:02] feeling enough right and then the the relief the relief at finally feeling sufficient

[00:20:14] right yeah and then the the bliss of being infinite yeah so you're you're really I'm with you

[00:20:28] with this the stardust stuff you know this yeah this bigger thing and I think this is something to

[00:20:39] like like anything else we have to see for ourselves you know I came up with this line about three

[00:20:45] years ago now there's there's no such thing as a there's no such thing as a second hand inside

[00:20:51] we have to have them we have to add the insights for themselves other people's insights

[00:20:57] such as you are lucky don't land for us we have to we have to see it for ourselves and

[00:21:04] if that's that's a gripply that's great that's great I mean go ahead I did I'm just

[00:21:09] clocking that in my own head right now yeah it's that um and then I want to bring something back

[00:21:17] down to really back down to earth on this uh and it's a story I tell every now and again

[00:21:23] I read this read this book about a adrenaline adrenaline junkie that became a junkie junkie right

[00:21:30] yeah yeah and and he so he decided to he decided to try heroin for two weeks to see what it

[00:21:42] was like coming off it so he's a nutter right isn't it anyway five years later still five years

[00:21:51] later he came he he came off heroin and it was on the back of one thing I and he only gives one sentence

[00:22:06] on the on the explanation yeah he said I realized that I was bigger than my addiction

[00:22:15] that's it that's it that's it I was bigger than my addiction so it's an 11 hour book

[00:22:23] it's yeah it's I've known chatted before is it's by guy called Ben Timberlake I put the

[00:22:30] shit I put I can't remember the name of the book I'll put it in the show now so I put it

[00:22:34] but that thing right I am bigger than my addiction and you think how can how can this stupid you

[00:22:42] know like well he got that he got that not as a kind of like a vague idea he got that deep in his

[00:22:48] his bones and and it's very it's really pertinent to me also he's really pertinent to be given

[00:22:54] them out of adoptees who are addicts right yeah and who and how we're all addicted to stuff in

[00:23:02] in in a different way whether it's chocolate business retail therapy you know whatever exercise

[00:23:09] you know like the world is addicted to something different in a different level as well as the

[00:23:14] the booze and drugs which are so prevalent within the doctor and but it's that size of that

[00:23:20] impact and and the identity piece yeah you know like um yeah so I don't know what you make of that

[00:23:30] I think that's really it um we are bigger than our addiction or our adoption or whatever

[00:23:39] shun we want to come up with we are bigger than it but you know I think it's a rare person that

[00:23:48] comes out of the gate uh and is going through grammar school uh at the age of eight ten

[00:23:55] years old that is really tracking that idea I think it you know I think we all go through the process

[00:24:02] of oh these shoes are too tight and boy my toes are hurting well next year the shoes are still too

[00:24:11] tight and at some point as adoptees we say maybe I need a bigger shoe and we get to that bigger shoe

[00:24:20] and yes we did we go through trauma of having crunched up toes for a while yes we did

[00:24:27] did it hurt yep um but did we learn from it and did we make an adjustment yes so you know when

[00:24:34] you know better we should do better and um I think you know we everybody has that moment

[00:24:43] if really kind of figure it out when you learn to ride a bike you will stub your you know or

[00:24:49] scrape your knee and hit your head um but then we learn it and we realize we are bigger than the

[00:24:55] bike we are smarter than the bike and we will not let the bike determine you know whether we fall

[00:25:00] or not it's up to us so I think yeah and we have a few more of those challenges then say a biological

[00:25:08] person they they still have challenges too we're not the only people that go around on this planet

[00:25:13] with challenges but I think that's it being bigger than the addiction or the adoption

[00:25:22] is really key but I think it takes time for us to get there and I think you you kind of pulled back

[00:25:29] and you looked you you know it's kind of like that that box of money or whatever it is a briefcase

[00:25:36] in pulp fiction they open the briefcase the glow of light it's like gold bar light you know

[00:25:42] something golden is coming out and Simon sounds like you saw it and you're like oh I you know

[00:25:47] you saw it the the goal is to have that briefcase open with that light on us all the time you know

[00:25:55] we can't always do it sometimes I have bad days but you got a glimpse of it you saw it and I'm

[00:26:01] I'm you know I see that you turn the page on that that's awesome brother that's awesome

[00:26:08] it's a it's a depth thing I've taught I myself talking about this a lot right so we get

[00:26:17] we get a glimpse of something yeah and you talked about the you you talked about the gratitude

[00:26:25] growing right so we don't norm we wouldn't normally associate growth with gratitude you know

[00:26:33] gratitude gratitude you're grateful or you're ungrateful right it's not normally a size thing

[00:26:39] you know it's not like it's not like the your metaphor with the shoe the shoes growing every year

[00:26:47] it gets it gets bigger gratitude isn't normally looked at something that gets bigger

[00:26:54] and I don't think that kind of insights are looked at that way either I think insides grow

[00:27:02] you know you get a glimpse of it and then you maybe get curious about you get curious about

[00:27:10] the mismatch between this new way of thinking and this old way of thinking perhaps that old belief

[00:27:19] thing yes and then it grows steadily it becomes it's it's like a

[00:27:27] a a I try to think of analogy that it transfers from something that we get in our heads to

[00:27:39] something that we get in our hearts and then we'll get it in our bones and and and that's

[00:27:45] that's the difference and that's when you've mastered you've mastered it when it gets into your

[00:27:50] bones and then you've you've got a good grip on yeah this and it becomes what you know it

[00:27:58] it becomes what people call as a people call an embodied understanding and embodied understanding

[00:28:05] right it's not just an idea in your head it's an embodied understanding you get it in your

[00:28:10] you get it in your bones and I just did another interview with a fellow doctor who's also a therapist

[00:28:17] and she said she she talked about physiological healing right so it's when something happens

[00:28:30] uh let let's say a rejection happens and we feel it we feel it in our gut we feel like we've

[00:28:40] been punched in the gut by this rejection yeah and then and then we do our work

[00:28:48] and we do a little bit more work and we do a little bit more work and as we carry on doing the

[00:28:54] work the the the the punch in the gut is less painful yes yeah absolutely and but we live in

[00:29:06] this world of ones and zeros right gratitude not not gratitude no no it's a size thing it's a

[00:29:14] size of you gratitude it's your it's the depth of is the depth of your of our understanding

[00:29:20] anniversary yeah and I think there's little things that you can do to feed the gratitude that help

[00:29:27] it grow and you know you know as you go gratitude yes can grow and it increase and then eventually

[00:29:38] we're embodying the whole uh gratitude and it makes things a lot less um I don't stumble over

[00:29:48] things things are less painful I don't know if I mentioned on the last um I don't know if this

[00:29:53] had happened but you know I don't know if I told you my birth mother has told me the same thing for

[00:30:01] 30 years of how I came to be and then a year ago she told me well you were kidnapped

[00:30:08] and I said well that's not what you you said I was I mean the papers say this baby's for adoption

[00:30:13] and you told me what you did and and at first I was really like pissed that she said that now I was

[00:30:22] like you know you can really fuck off with that I said some you know I was you know we have this

[00:30:27] we can talk like that to each other but um but then I quite quickly pivoted and realized

[00:30:36] I don't need her uh I don't need my birth mother to conspire in my healing I can do it without her

[00:30:43] and I however I got here and I don't know if I'll ever know for sure because it could be that

[00:30:51] you know I my birth mother I know is dealing with an extreme amount of guilt and shame for

[00:30:57] relinquishing I think she looks back and thinks boy I should have tried harder at doing it on my own

[00:31:04] but at the time I don't blame her uh but I know she's going through it internally um so this new idea

[00:31:12] that you know because if I'm kidnapped it takes it off of her well you are kidnapped so I didn't

[00:31:19] you know there's just less less guilt that she needs to carry and I realized I don't need

[00:31:27] even a clear answer as to how I got here um I just know that I am here and I'm working on

[00:31:36] being better uh as this uh spirit on this human journey that got adopted

[00:31:44] and working on being the best I can be uh where I'm at and how did I get here it could be a changing

[00:31:52] thing but I'm realizing it doesn't hinge on that so there are still things that can come up

[00:31:58] and it did hurt me when she said that but I'm I handled it way better than I would have in my

[00:32:07] 20s if I had heard that I would have been like Jesus Christ at the you know at the market dumping

[00:32:14] tables over out of I would have thrown glass against the wall like I heard that but now it's like

[00:32:21] okay I'm seeing it for what it is I realize there's a lot of people that got into this uh adoption

[00:32:30] mosaic quite innocently I think my birth mother didn't really you know she didn't have any other

[00:32:37] option being Catholic she was not gonna keep me uh her parents were not gonna allow that they weren't

[00:32:43] gonna pay for the last years of university so I don't think that she had any mal uh you know

[00:32:51] any any bad intent um uh and I think my parents who adopted me they came at it innocently looking for

[00:33:02] just a child that needed a home and you and I definitely came into this situation uh innocently

[00:33:10] we were the product of you know you know what we were the product of like we we came in innocent so

[00:33:18] um I think you know I know there are some bad behaviors within the adoption world but I try to give

[00:33:25] I'm giving my birth mother a little more lenience and my birth father who's a little bit of a nut himself

[00:33:34] and I'm not worrying about it I'm gonna let things unfold as they do so and I it's come with

[00:33:42] age and look at it you know and I think you and I have been kind of digging deep and it's showing

[00:33:50] yeah yeah oh I forgot to say you mentioned diamond earlier on so diamonds yeah since last time

[00:33:56] I we spoke I think I changed the thriving doctorate logo to a diamond right so there's a reason for that

[00:34:02] ladies of gentlemen yeah there's a reason for that yeah no we we are we are we're one of the most

[00:34:09] unique people uh in existence on this planet we're a minority hidden in plain sight we don't have

[00:34:16] any specific look to our minority we are of all uh ethnicities and religions and whatever all

[00:34:25] in this and nobody would know who we are unless we raise our hands say we are um and I think we're

[00:34:31] giving some we're getting some voice out there and I think you're giving voice to a lot of

[00:34:36] these people I think what I'm doing as well coming from a different angle and I think people are

[00:34:42] starting to understand that maybe it's not all um you know crumpets and crumpets and coffee you know

[00:34:50] being adopted there's a few things in there but we are bigger than our adoptions so

[00:34:55] yeah things we can do things we can do so um metaphors kind of sometimes run out of steam but

[00:35:03] that you know like the the diamonds value is set by and by the market right yeah our our value

[00:35:12] is infinite right that's yeah that's kind of how I see it and that's the reason for the the diamond

[00:35:21] on the loan and that fell and bodied understanding of you know us

[00:35:29] so you talked about spiritual beings yeah yeah and I love that quote I'm used to it for a bit

[00:35:38] a while you know that the quote is that we're not human beings having a spiritual experience with

[00:35:46] spiritual beings having a human experience yeah and and some big go go further than that and

[00:35:56] say well we're one spiritual being and in that sense we are the universe christisarius one

[00:36:07] others or we are consciousness yeah that's consciousness we are the whole shibain

[00:36:15] we're pun and for me the the spiritual being is that part of ourselves that is

[00:36:25] unwounded the trauma is in the human experience not in the essence of who we

[00:36:34] yes and I think if you can look at it that way and I find it helps me and not everybody will

[00:36:43] look at that way they have maybe other ways of you know dissecting it but if for me if I see it as

[00:36:51] a spiritual being you know on this journey that quite possibly I signed up for so they said who

[00:36:59] wants to be Jeff forney down there who wants to be Simon Ben and we said well I'll give that a shot

[00:37:05] but it hasn't affected our spiritual being yes in the human world it was a little

[00:37:15] weird and you know we weren't raised by our biological roots so that brought certain things to

[00:37:21] our life but we are still intact spiritually we are still ourselves I'm with you on that man

[00:37:31] yeah so have you seen this video the rock paper scissors thing I saw you talking about it yeah no

[00:37:43] yeah I think it's got my body sky really I am I'm just so shocked with myself for this matter

[00:37:52] for you know I've been looking for and it's funny because like I'm going to be really in a course

[00:37:56] with really know what some webinars I was telling about doing some you know metaphors metaphors

[00:38:03] for healing yeah do you do you chunk who are meeting in Dublin tomorrow so will you play rock paper

[00:38:11] scissors form with me will you do that yeah yeah okay so we're going to go one two three and then

[00:38:18] hold up the okay I'll hold up the hand right yeah one one two three okay so listeners I and

[00:38:32] I and the rock I've got my my my my first right it's a rock and Jeff has got a pair of really well

[00:38:41] matured and he is trying he's trying to cut into the rock with his right with with with

[00:38:53] three thousand six thousand miles away because he's west coast and I'm in in New Yorkshire but we're

[00:39:00] only obviously 12 inches away by by by zoom and we can play rock paper scissors so right the the scissors

[00:39:09] in rock paper scissors rock beats scissors because rock can break scissors rock can break scissors okay

[00:39:20] scissors cannot cut rock yeah so the rock is who we are and the scissors are the metaphor for

[00:39:30] the trauma the scissors are the trauma the rock is our essence yeah yeah yeah so but nobody's denying

[00:39:40] the the trauma that's happening nobody's denying that right so do you want to do you want to play

[00:39:45] rock rock paper scissors again yes one one two three okay so Jeff is now holding of his hand flat

[00:39:59] he is paper right your paper yeah and your paper your hand can hide my rock yeah paper beats rock

[00:40:15] so the paper is the trauma and the rock is us so using this metaphor trauma hides us it doesn't

[00:40:28] that's it that's yeah I love that I love that I love it what happened if I had done rock and you

[00:40:36] done rock well I would have just made you do it again I'm not gonna I'm gonna I'm sticking with the

[00:40:46] rock yeah the rock with this thing and this is it works very well on video if you want to check

[00:40:53] it out listen to go to my baseball feed I've got a link in I tell you what I'll put a link to the video

[00:41:01] that I and the thing so people can get that hopefully it'll um it might get them thinking

[00:41:09] in a slightly different way about the trauma because trauma does like I'm just thinking about

[00:41:16] what does trauma do to the universe do you know does it does it hate it trauma kind of it hides

[00:41:23] our world does that it's is it like the fall kind of yeah it's kind of like yeah the trauma is

[00:41:31] the thing that we're seeing things through a lens that's not exactly true we're seeing

[00:41:39] the trauma makes it so that we see things skewed in a way you know last week my daughter uh did

[00:41:48] something she I was I was asking her what she was up to and she kind of blew me off and was into

[00:41:55] her homework and and she kept looking at her phone or she and I was like she's looking at her

[00:42:00] phone didn't want pay attention to me but then when I was speaking to my wife about something and it

[00:42:07] I don't know maybe my wife was saying something about another teenage girl that my girls know

[00:42:12] maybe there was a little gossip or something my daughter came running out of the room and this is

[00:42:17] the one that gave me no time of day when I asked her how her day was but she was really interested in

[00:42:23] hearing about what happened on this date with this girl and this boy whatever something happened

[00:42:28] and I took it personally that she wasn't interested in what her dad had to say or asked her questions

[00:42:37] she was only interested in what the date that happened with the girl and the guy and because of my

[00:42:46] trauma or my you know something in my adoption you know fired off that she wasn't interested in me

[00:42:56] she was only interested in that and it affected me and because of my trauma would be

[00:43:02] that I'm wearing these glasses and I'm seeing I took it to heart it was weird I really took

[00:43:08] it to heart I'm like you know I'm not going to be seeing you much longer you're going to graduate

[00:43:11] high school and you know I wanted to talk to you and you didn't want to talk to me

[00:43:18] and that was all coming from an adopted father and if I had seen it for really what my wife later

[00:43:25] was like she just wanted to hear well she was just into her phone for a moment and then she

[00:43:30] wanted to hear how the date went like you know but you made it a whole thing that she doesn't

[00:43:35] care about you so that's what trauma is for me it's not something that I can't recognize you know

[00:43:42] and I kind of quickly I talked to my wife and then I recognized and I realized yeah that's

[00:43:48] a that's an adopt that's something that I wasn't good enough whatever that came up in that way

[00:43:53] and I felt that my daughter was blowing me off in a way or something so that's where it'll do

[00:44:00] because the reality was if I take my glasses off that's really not what happened but

[00:44:05] I sought that way because I remember the last time I touched the hot the hot plate I got burned

[00:44:12] so I'm going to start reacting that same way um so the more we can learn about ourselves and realize

[00:44:20] that things that happen to us younger are merely you know it doesn't mean it's going to happen again

[00:44:27] and we can learn from these things and how to navigate them with understanding and more patience

[00:44:35] and you know again gratitude can be thrown in there but that's how I reacted last week with my with

[00:44:44] my daughter so that's that's a perfect example and I told I said look

[00:44:48] you know dad has an adoptee sometimes things hit me a little harder and I'm sorry

[00:44:54] I'm working through them um I'm not perfect I'm learning a lot from you as much as you know

[00:45:01] I'm probably learning more from you than you are from me and I apologize and I'm I'm working on it

[00:45:09] dad's working on it right now and that's that was it but that's where that's where

[00:45:15] the adoption showed up and here I am you know I'm middle aged and you know

[00:45:21] it really affected me and so then I got emotional talking to my daughter about it because

[00:45:26] I just felt bad that I got pretty angry with her so that's that's it yeah wow

[00:45:34] now the um the metaphor of the lens I think is really great on that and um

[00:45:44] summing it up and I heard something on this

[00:45:49] landing metaphor I'm not sure how to open them and

[00:46:01] if we've got orange glasses on then snow looks on it yeah absolutely

[00:46:12] so trauma as the trauma as the lambs yes makes the world look different until we see

[00:46:27] the other ones it's getting those glasses off you know I know that the adoption coming out of the

[00:46:34] fog you can use that term but it's getting these rose colored or orange tinted glasses off

[00:46:41] and seeing it without any memory of the past without any uh remembering a biological separation

[00:46:50] of the past without you know but it takes time you know and we're we're all working on it but yes

[00:46:57] it's understanding that we are not our trauma we are not our addiction we are not our adoption

[00:47:03] we are larger than that you know I wish I knew this at 22 um but I didn't

[00:47:11] but maybe people will be learning from you and I and we can help those that are hoping or have

[00:47:19] these thoughts and don't feel feel guilty for having these thoughts feel guilty about sharing

[00:47:24] these thoughts with their adoptive parents they don't know where to turn and they're not alone

[00:47:34] brilliant so is there anything else you'd like to share Jeff yeah I could I could you know

[00:47:41] go get a coffee and we can sit for another couple hours here Simon I mean we can just keep talking

[00:47:45] and talking let's do it again later in the year yeah no I love checking it with you brother

[00:47:51] it's great you're like this is it's like being home we just need a little we need to sit

[00:47:57] fireside and just kind of you know little teens cookies now let's hang out all afternoon I'm hoping to

[00:48:06] get to I'm hoping to get to your close right because I've been I've been to East Coast loads of time

[00:48:12] I haven't been to I've been to West Coast since when I was 13 and I went to Disneyland so you know

[00:48:22] and I'm not 57 so it's 44 44 years my math is correct it's a long time since I've been to West Coast

[00:48:29] well you're welcome for a wonderful dinner here my wife cooks up in incredible Mediterranean food

[00:48:35] and she actually lived in London from six till 12 wow yeah if Israeli moved it was in London

[00:48:44] lived in Finchley and Golders Green or some and then she then they moved back but anyway

[00:48:55] there's a big there's a big Jewish community yes a gold screen yeah yeah so

[00:49:02] yeah yeah I'm finishing for that matter yeah cool yeah thank you listeners and we'll speak to you

[00:49:07] again very soon cheers Jack thanks for yeah