God Adopted Us First With Alice Murray Adoption Attorney & Writer

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Alice, Alice Murray. Looking forward to our conversation. Now we've got the technology sorted, right? Yay! Yay! I can be heard and seen. Thank you so much. You can be heard and seen. Yeah, brilliant. So frequent visitors, loyal visitors, listeners to the show would know that Alice has been on the podcast before. So if you haven't heard that her interview before, I'd urge you to check

[00:00:32] that out and there'll be a link in the show notes to that listeners. Alice is a, she's an auntie through adoption and she's also an adoption professional. She's an adoption attorney. And what we're going to dive in today is her new book, which is God Adopted Us First, right? Did I get that right? Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

[00:00:56] Okay. So, and it's a, it's a compilation of stories, right? So why did you come up with that title, Alice? What's the title about for you? For me, I'm a woman of faith and in the Bible it tells us that we're all adopted into God's family, which is a very positive thing because a lot, there's a lot of stigma about adoption. And I thought, well, this is wonderful if God's a

[00:01:26] adopting us, then we should all be proud to be adopted. And I think there are some negative and skewed views of adoption. So whether you're a person of faith or not, it's interesting to see different stories and how they play out because no two adoption stories are the same.

[00:01:46] And you might resonate with some of the things that happen in these stories. If you're touched by adoption or if you're thinking about adoption, you may say, well, that wasn't what I was thinking would happen, but maybe we should consider that. So I just wanted to open people's eyes to both the process and the positives, especially if you're a person of faith, that you can find in the adoption process.

[00:02:07] Okay. So when you say adopted into God's family and the pride in that, to me, that's about that because I was kind of raised in a Christian household. I went to a Christian school where we sung hymns every morning, where we listened to a lesson every day, but it didn't float my boat, right?

[00:02:36] I didn't, it didn't, it didn't, it didn't grab me. However, the way that you're describing it as being part of God's family, that to me, that speaks to identity, identity, our identity, and that is more fundamental than our psychology, right?

[00:02:58] So when I think of trauma, I think of our psychology rather than our identity. Does that make sense? So I'm making a clear distinction here between psychology and identity. Right.

[00:03:14] And being part of God's family talks to me a lot about the essence of who we are. And there's a certain power in that. What does that mean to you? What does being part of God's family mean to you?

[00:03:40] Well, it tells me that families are created in different ways. It may not be the way that you're initially thinking. It may not be a biological child. It may not be a newborn, but families are based on love, not necessarily biology. And it's a choice that you make to add somebody to your family. And that's a very positive choice.

[00:04:04] One of the stories in my book is about our legal secretary that worked for us for a number of years. She and her husband adopted a little boy. And they told him from the time he was, yay, hi, you know, we decided, we chose you to become a part of our family. And that was very positive for him. And I'm not glossing over any loss or grief that's on the other side. But he didn't think that was horrible. He didn't think that was a stigma.

[00:04:32] You know, he understood he was loved and wanted by his adoptive parents. So when he got to be school age, the parents got a call from the principal and the principal's like, we've got a problem with your son. And they're going, oh no, what's wrong? And he said, he's going, he thinks he's better than all of his friends. He's going around and telling them, my parents chose me, but your parents had to have you.

[00:04:59] So it's like, he sees it as a positive. I mean, there's positives to both, but there is no stigma to being adopted. It's just a different way to create a loving family. And I'm just talking about creation because there's lots of other emotions involved in the process and the book gets into that. But the identity of being an adopted person is not negative.

[00:05:24] It's positive in the sense that someone chose to have you as a part of the family. And it's created out of a place of love, not anything negative for them. For them. So there's two ideas there for me. The idea that you, the positivity idea that you're talking about is the chosen one.

[00:05:48] But the, the other, the other idea is a bigger, kind of a bigger take on family, right? Yes. God's family is bigger than Simon's family and Alice's family. Correct. So it's a bigger take on family. Yes, sir. But there's also a positivity in the identity of being part of that family.

[00:06:16] So being part of God's family has a, brings, gives us a positive spin on our own identity. Because if God is good, right? And we're part of his family, then we're good too. What does, so that's kind of what comes to my mind as I think about this. Where do you see that?

[00:06:42] Where do you, where do you see the positivity as being part of God's family? Well, we're part of it, part of something larger than ourselves. We are loved. And I think every individual craves love and acceptance. So being a part of a family, regardless of who you are or what you've done or through no works of your own. I mean, if I handled newborn adoption, so newborns have no choice in where they go.

[00:07:12] So through, through nothing of your own, someone loved you enough. Now, just because you're a part of God's family doesn't mean you're necessarily good, but it should, should motivate and challenge you to be good and to help others. And that's the essence of faith. We say God is love. We want to help others. You know, if people need assistance, we help them. And if it's, you know, something that we can do, we want to do that.

[00:07:41] And helping create families or, you know, empowering adoptive families. I know my church has an adoptive foster parent support group. And it's like we want to encourage people who are helping others or children who are in a difficult place. So whether it's by coming alongside them and helping do household repairs or providing meals when a foster placement is made at the last minute.

[00:08:04] You know, we want to channel love and good and see that we're all a part of a family and we would help our brother or sister that needed something. And as God's family, we're all brothers and sisters. So we should be helping each other, not just in the adoption context, but in any context. Yeah. And I'm asking slightly naive questions here. Sure. Yeah. So it is what you mentioned love.

[00:08:29] So is this, is part of this idea of being adopted into God's family, the idea that God loves us and that, and we can, we can rely on that. We can rely on that love and that, that love is unconditional, I guess. Yes. What does it mean? The love is conditional just as a parent and whether you're adopted or biological, love can exist. And it's not because of who you are.

[00:08:58] It's your relationship. That's your child. So I had a pastor and his wife that adopted a newborn. And after a while, well, before they even received the placement, the pastor confided to me and he said, you know, I'm not sure I can love an adopted child. I'm like, I would love my own biological child. And then weeks after they received the placement, he calls me and he said, you know, Alice, I was wrong.

[00:09:24] The birth mother had smoked during the pregnancy. So the infant went through the nicotine withdrawal. So the shakes and couldn't sleep. And he would sit up at night and rock that baby. And he said, I spent hours every night comforting that baby and watching her fall asleep in my arms. And he said, you know, I couldn't love her anymore if my wife had given birth to her.

[00:09:50] So it's not about where you come from or biology. It's a feeling of love because of the relationship. That's your child. So you love that child. Doesn't matter where they came from or if they have the same blood type you do. It's the idea of love in a conscious decision. You know, we're going to add to the family. And then you love them because they are a part of her family.

[00:10:16] So it's in in one question, in a few words, it's the idea that love is bigger than biology. Yes. Yes. Love is bigger than biology. That's certainly a part in a way that you could be a family member. But it's not dependent on that. It can extend beyond that to an adopted family member.

[00:10:42] And I mean, I love my niece and nephew as much as if my sister had given birth to them. Yes. They don't. My niece is adopted from China. She doesn't look like any of us. But that doesn't mean she's not a part of our family or we don't love her. So it's about that relationship. And that's what God's family is. It's a relationship. We look at each other as family members and treat each other like family members. We would do anything to help our family members.

[00:11:11] So everybody around us is part of the family. So why not help them? Yeah. Yeah. As you were talking that I I thought about I'm talking about the the the pastor rocking his child to sleep or holding a child.

[00:11:30] You know, I thought of a letter that that when I got my adoption file, I got some I got the letters pre adoption and post adoption. And the there's a letter back from my my mum, my adopted mum, right, saying that that's about a week after after they had collected me. From the from the adoption council, the adoption agency.

[00:12:00] And it says we love Simon very much. Right. So that's within. A week. They have. But there's been a shift. There's been a shift for. Yeah. Yeah. And the book doesn't just concentrate on adoptive parents. There's a lot of stories regarding biological parents, because I think there's a lot of negative views sometimes of birth parents.

[00:12:30] When you say, oh, how could they, you know, give up their child or abandon their child? And it's not like that for most. I'm not going to. There's never anything that you can say about anybody that's entirely true for anybody, adoptive parents, attorneys or whatever. But most of the time I saw it was a very difficult choice for the birth mother to place her own child. And she was coming from a place of love in doing that. You know, she's sad.

[00:13:00] She's recognized she may not be in a position to parent, but at least she's giving the child a good life. Or at least what she perceives is better than what she could do. And I have nothing but the utmost admiration for birth mothers who do that. There was one situation, and I remember it very clearly. The birth mother had some mental health issues, and she was taking medication to keep her on a, you know, an even plane.

[00:13:27] And the doctor indicated, she said, well, you know, those psychotic medicines are going to may harm the baby. And she made the decision to get off those medicines for a number of months to protect the child that she knew she was giving up for adoption. And she went through so much.

[00:13:46] I mean, I saw it, and I just, you know, my heart just, I had so much admiration to go through that, to put yourself, you know, behind, you know, taking care of this child. And it was just, like I said, I have the utmost admiration, you know, and I don't see, I'm not saying I've never seen it, but the vast majority of birth mothers are just trying to do the right thing. They're not abandoning their child. They're doing what mothers do.

[00:14:13] They're making a decision to do something that's what's best for the child. It may be hard. You don't want to spank your child. You know, you don't want to restrict your child when they do something wrong. But the bigger picture is you have to do what's best for the child. And what's best is different in every circumstances. It may be raising the child, but in some situations, birth mothers don't have a chance.

[00:14:34] You know, we've made placements where the birth mother said, well, if I don't make this placement, Department of Children and Families is going to come take my child and put the child in foster care. And I don't want my child in foster care. So again, you know, the choices are not always, you know, it's one or the other. And it's not always good, but I, my admiration is soaring for the birth mothers I have worked with.

[00:14:59] And then another reason that prompted me to write this book, which I have a picture of right there. We've got the attorney. I work on the coast of Florida. So we've got the short red haired attorney sitting on the beak. But I had a couple, it was a young couple in the stories in the book, but she had some mental health issues. And the birth father, they were a couple, they were addicted.

[00:15:25] He was addicted to alcohol and he'd had like three, two or three DUIs and was on house arrest. And I was like, they just knew that they, they couldn't handle, take care of their own lives, much less a baby. And they made the conscious decision. Let's find a great family to adopt our child. We'll stay in touch and, you know, exchange information and pictures. That's fine. And then his family said, how could you do that? That's unbiblical. You don't just give away a baby.

[00:15:52] If God, you know, allowed her to get pregnant, then you ought to raise it. And they were just, you know, they're wracked with guilt because they're trying, they know they can't handle it. I mean, he's confined to his apartment on house arrest and she's struggling with mental health. And they just, they know they can't do it yet. They got this resistance. And I thought, people need to understand that that's not how it is. I mean, you know, we have the verse in the Bible, God adopted us. And then there's Bible accounts of adoptions.

[00:16:21] I mean, Moses was adopted by Pharaoh's daughter, Queen Esther. She became queen, but she was raised as an orphan by her cousin, Mordecai. So there's instances in the Bible of adoption. So it's, it's not unbiblical. I mean, the thing we should do above anything else is love one another. And if you love your child, you want what's best for your child. And that's, that just broke my heart to see those parents just heaping the guilt on the birth father for that.

[00:16:51] Yeah. You know, now in some instances, it may be best for the birth mother to parent the child. And there, there were times somebody had called me and said, I've decided to parent. And I'm like, because I really thought you could do. I'm thinking to myself, I thought you could do it. And I'm glad you made this decision. So it's not for everybody. But if someone recognizes that's really the best decision, they shouldn't be guilted to say it's, it's not biblical or you're abandoning your child. That's, that's not it at all.

[00:17:21] So the, the adopted into God's family is for all of us, right? For a woman of faith. Now, I have, I obviously it's got a faith-based title and there's some faith lessons that follow each story. But even if you're not a person of faith, you may say, well, I'm going to hear about some of these stories. And if, if I had an adoptive family member or I placed a child or I'm an adoptee, I want to see what happened to other people.

[00:17:46] So there's 40 different stories and it involves different people in the adoption process. There's some about me as the adoption attorney. There's some about the biological parents. There's some about prospective adoptive parents. There's one about the couple about the judge. There's a lot of people that are touched by adoption. So the stories are really cool and you get an inside view. I mean, a lot of people are skewed. They either think it's really negative or really positive all the time.

[00:18:15] And the truth is there's Henry Wadsworth Longfellow wrote a poem about the girl with a curl in the middle of her forehead. And it's like, when it's good, it's really good. And when it's bad, it's horrid. And most of the time things work out really well, but sometimes they don't. And people need to understand, you know, it's an emotional roller coaster. And different emotions are felt by different people. Lots of different emotions. And I think people can see lots of things happen.

[00:18:44] And it's not just, oh my gosh, our adoption was so difficult. And I thought it was just, you know, it's all sweetness and light. And you bring the baby home from the hospital and everything's wonderful. But birth parents have difficulties. Adoptive parents have difficulties. There's different difficulties in the court system. So there's no cookie cutter adoption. There's nothing that's the same. And people need to get a good idea or can say, hey, I felt that way too. I'm not, you know, it's not just me.

[00:19:14] Other people feel the same way going through the process. So it's just helping people to get a better view of what goes on. So after 35 years, I won't say I've seen everything, but I've seen a lot of things and a lot of common things that happen. So you referred that to as the emotional roller coaster.

[00:19:35] So what have you learned over those 35 years about riding that roller, riding that emotional roller coaster with perhaps more ease than some of us have? What are the learnings that you've got in terms of navigating adoption's ups and downs? Well, I think being prepared and have realistic expectations is one thing.

[00:20:04] Because there's what you think is going to happen and then there's what happens. So you need to be realistic that, yes, it's a legal process, but it's also a very emotional process. This isn't like you're buying a piece of land and you just go to court, you know, you sign a document and, you know, it's approved or whatever. This is people's lives. So there's lots of emotions that are involved. It's not just a legal process. There are emotions. You're going to experience them.

[00:20:34] There may be all different kinds of emotions. There may be fear. There may be anger. There may be grief. You're scared. And just because the adoption is finalized doesn't mean an adoption is over. It's a lifelong thing. A family continues on. So just because a placement is made, then you still have to navigate things.

[00:20:58] I mean, from my perspective, the child needs to know that they were adopted, chosen, very positive. Your mom loved you. This is why she did this. You know, so it's not a shock later on. You know, you need to know these things and prepare the child. But, you know, kids can be cruel. And if people have a negative view of adoption, you know, you're adopted, you know. And kids are cruel.

[00:21:25] Well, I know my grandson's been bullied because on his dad's side of the family, there are some Hispanic family members. And they were very ugly. So, but it's not. They have to have a good perception of themselves. It's not a stigma. And the parents need to be prepared that some people out there are going to see that negatively and prepare the child. But, no, this is a positive. You know, you're loved. You were chosen. It's not a stigma. Your mom loved you.

[00:21:53] She made a choice out of love. And if you prepare the child, I'm not saying it's not going to be hard if somebody says something negative. But at least you're better prepared for it. And if you're not prepared that it's going to be an emotional roller coaster and you think, you know, the judge signs the final adoption and that's it. You don't have to worry about it anymore. Everything's sweetness and light. That's not it. There's going to be feelings of grief and loss. The child will grow up. Maybe wonder if mom didn't want to have any contact. You know, what happened with mom?

[00:22:23] What's going on? I don't know. Or maybe you're scared to find out. Like, my nephew's kind of iffy about whether to meet his biological mother. You know. But at least you're prepared to understand these things are going to come down the road. It's not just we sign the paper, you get the baby and life goes on wonderfully for everybody. That's just not realistic.

[00:22:48] So how does faith help the adoption journey for you? Well, for me, I can see four things that I would say help people with adoption. First of all, it may be a motivation because you want to help others. Not I'm going to save the world or anything, but it's your family. So why wouldn't we help whoever it is?

[00:23:14] So I think it may be a motivation because you love your human family, the big family, and you want to help. It may be confirmation that it's okay to adopt. I mean, I had many clients, adoptive parents that have struggled with infertility. And they're like, well, we love children. We'd like to help people. We want to have a child. We think we'd be good parents. But is adoption the way to go?

[00:23:42] And like I said, there's biblical stories that say adoption's okay. You know, if a birth mother makes a conscious choice, this is, you know, the best option of what's available to her. Then, you know, it's not, you shouldn't be stigmatized that, oh, you're, you know, that's unbiblical. No, it is. So it can be a confirmation that that may be a way to grow your family. It doesn't have to be a biological family. And then when you go through the process, like I said, it's an emotional roller coaster.

[00:24:12] So it can provide some comfort and guidance. You know, it's scary. Like I said, my sister and her husband adopted two kids. And so I've seen adoption from the professional, adoption professional side. But I've also seen it from the family side. And it's scary. Like, oh my gosh, what if this doesn't go through? You know, or are we going to be good enough to handle this? Or how are we, you know? So there's a lot of things. But you have comfort in your faith. You know, God's directing everything. Everything works together for good.

[00:24:41] You have someone that you can ask for, you know, strength and, you know, guidance. So guidance. So motivation, you know, confirmation, guidance. And then navigating being a family. I mean, like I said, the adoption does not end just because the judge signs a final judgment. I mean, then you've got to live your life as a forever family. Excuse me. And how do we navigate things? Like, do we tell people we're adopted?

[00:25:10] I mean, I've had some friends that adopt my husband's an adoptee. And he said, you know, people were shocked to find out, you know, he was adopted. He knew. But it was like, you know, wow. You know, your mom's your mom. It was like, you know, he thought it was natural. And normally, you know, he doesn't have anything to do. He knows his parents were very young and unable to raise him.

[00:25:39] And, you know, but there are times when people will, well, what about this? And you have, you're going to have to deal with your child if you're an adoptive parent. What do you say? How do you say it? How do you present it? How do you help them navigate things if people do say ugly things? Because people are human and imperfect. And people are going to say, especially kids, cruel things. How do we navigate this? Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:05] So how does, you mentioned the word stigma a couple of times. How do kind of faith and stigma, how do they relate to one another? Well, I think the stigma is they're focusing on how you got to be a member of the family, not that you're a member of the family. Does it matter? I mean, in God's family, it doesn't matter. You know, we're all family. We can be male, female, different races, you know, whatever.

[00:26:35] But we're all a part of the family. So faith, you know, take off the, you know, take the magnifying glass away. And it's just, it's a family member. It doesn't matter about anything else. You love them because of that relationship as a family member. Yeah. So I think the faith helps you to do that. We're all a member of God's family. It doesn't matter what continent you're on or gender or anything like that. We're just family members. Yeah.

[00:27:03] I was thinking from an internal perspective, from an adoptee's perspective, in terms of them thinking themselves as less than in some way. And how faith might be, I don't know, an antidote to that. How do you see those two things for an individual adoptee? Well, again, if you focus, faith is based on love.

[00:27:32] And if you can see that there was love on both sides of the equation, you know, the birth parent made a decision because that was the best option out of a place of love. And you're taken into another family who loves you just because you're a family member, regardless of your circumstances. That's a win for everybody. And I think it also helps the perspective of the child.

[00:27:59] I mean, there's always going to be a sense of grief and loss because you don't have that biological family because we're human and that's, we're going to go there. But for example, my husband, I mean, he's a strong person of faith and he's never met his parents, but he said, I am so thankful that they put me first because I know I would have been in a bad place

[00:28:27] if they had tried to raise me. And I am so thankful that they made that decision. And I know that they love me. So again, I think the faith helps you focus on family, part of the family and the love part of it. So that's a positive. So I think the faith part of it helps you to be positive, whereas the stigma is a negative. Yeah.

[00:28:53] And again, I'm not saying there's no negatives about adoption because clearly, clearly there are. I mean, it's hard. There's grief. There's loss on both sides. I mean, most people would prefer to have a biological family. So if they turn to adoption, it may be. I had one lady that had had 12 miscarriages before I made a placement with her. So, I mean, this woman had been through grief and loss. But again, adoption provided a positive.

[00:29:22] It was a way to create a family, help a child in need. So I think we need to focus. I think our culture today is just so negative. You're always looking for something that's wrong with somebody or how they should have done something better. And I think we need to focus on the positive. And I think that's where the faith comes in, because it's love and a family relationship, regardless of who you are or where you came from. You're part of our family and we love you and we're going to help you. Yeah.

[00:29:52] And if we all acted like that, not just in adoption, but in general, you know, the world would be a much better place. Indeed.

[00:30:02] Did you, in considering these stories, did you learn of, did you hear, you talked about gratitude and your husband being grateful for his birth parents putting me first, I think was the word that he used. If I scribbled those down.

[00:30:25] Did you come across, there's a bit of, some adoptees have a backlash, right? So perhaps the adoptees have had a tougher time than others. And they've, they've been, they haven't felt grateful and people have told them that they should be grateful. And then there's this clash, right? Have you come across that?

[00:30:54] I have not, because most of the time, once I made a placement as the attorney, I didn't have a lot of contact with the adoptee when they got to an age. I mean, I practiced for 35 years. So yes, I, I am in contact with a few adoptees who are adults and I have not experienced that with them.

[00:31:16] But again, I think if you have, if you have a feeling that I'm not grateful, it may be because they don't, and I'm not saying this about everybody and I don't know because I'm not an adoptee. But I think that it may, the negative bubbles up because you don't know. If you've not met your biological parent and so you wonder what happened, why did this happen?

[00:31:45] You know, did somebody force my mom to do that? No. I know years ago that happened, you know, Tina. And I've talked to people that that happened too. You know, back in the day, you know, it was a real stigma to be a single parent. And that, that girl was forced whether she want to or not. Her parents like, you are placing this baby for adoption. Now, I get that, right? That's wrong. Today, that's not how it is. Nobody is really forced.

[00:32:14] I would never, and I always say that when I would take a teenage birth mother's consent, I would say, I'm sorry about your parents need to step outside the room. And I would look at her and tell her, I mean, I had a 14-year-old one time. And I said, this has to be your decision. And if you are doing this because your parents are forcing you to do that, you tell me that. And I will walk out of here and I will not take a consent or place your baby.

[00:32:43] And I will just tell your parents, I'm sorry, this can't go forward. So, it's got to be a decision. But it's hard to be grateful when you may have the view that somebody was forced to do this and you were taken away. And, you know, if that's what you think, I understand that's a place that you could, you could come from. So, knowledge is power. So, the more you know about the situation, the better.

[00:33:05] So, the older the adoptee is, I understand that feeling because it was not like it was, you know, years and years ago. But now, it's much more, it's the birth mother's choice. Now, when I say choice, it's the best option under the circumstances. And maybe they don't know what the circumstances are. And, again, I think it's coming from a place of hurt, too.

[00:33:33] You know, I don't know what happened. You know, I'm torn away from my biological family. I didn't get to experience that. And that is a loss for everybody. Even if you're grateful, it's still a loss. But it may help you understand it a little bit better if you read some of these stories and see why these birth mothers are making these decisions. You know, you're still going to experience that loss. But it wasn't like, you know, the child was ripped away. Like, it was in the past.

[00:34:02] And I can't remember the name of the movie, but there was a movie about, I think it was in Ireland. And the nuns were forcing the single girls to place the children for adoption. And that's horrible. You know, it should be, it's the parents. And I always tell her, you're the only one that can make this choice, not me. It's your child. You have to decide whether you can do this or not.

[00:34:23] So I think the negativity comes from, in part, you know, the hurt and the loss of being separated and perhaps not understanding why the parent came to that decision. And in fact, yeah, it's about the child, but probably not in the way you're thinking. The parent probably made the decision because they're aware, I can't do this either because of my circumstances or I had a horrible upbringing and I'm just not prepared to raise a child. Because, you know.

[00:34:52] So again, I hurt for them and I understand that. And the older they are, the more valid it probably is that they're not grateful because they probably were ripped away if it was a single young mom. But in the 35 years I worked, I didn't see anybody ripping them and I would never have done that. In fact, I always told somebody, even if it wasn't a teenager, when I went in, I'm like, look, this is your decision. I don't care what you've done up until this point. If you decided you want a parent, that's fine. I won't be upset or angry.

[00:35:23] You know, that's your call. And it is. I definitely think the lack of knowledge of the back, knowledge of the story adds to the trauma. And I also think, you know, how can we be grateful for trauma? You know, that might be another adoptee angle on it. Like, how can I be grateful for this trauma?

[00:35:52] The other thing that pops into my head as you're talking about how the ways things used to be is that certain churches were playing both sides. So they knew the unmarried women, girls who were pregnant and they knew the parents that wanted to adopt.

[00:36:21] So they were playing both sides and they were playing that for a financial game. But perhaps less straightforwardly than it is these days. So it would be like a donation. And I've heard that them playing this card.

[00:36:48] And that adds to us, our concern as adoptees, as we're, you know, we're part of some kind of... Conspiracy. Conspiracy. And concern about the religion doing that, you know, churches doing that. I have a particular moment.

[00:37:14] We went into the Vatican and on a trip to Rome. And on one hand, I'm thinking this architecture is beautiful. But then I'm also thinking this has been funded by contributions. Contributions, right? And I think... Should it be this? Should it be like this? You know?

[00:37:44] But we're into... We're broader. We're moving into areas perhaps off the tack, off the thread of the conversation. So for me, I keep on coming back to the not good enough feeling, right? That there's something wrong with me. That I was... That we were, as adoptees, we were given away.

[00:38:14] And this idea of being adopted into God's family is a counter to that. Because we are... We're seeing the beauty of our identity, to put it. Yeah, you're more loved than most. And I think it's a perspective change because adoptees feel like, well, this is all about me. So it must have been something wrong.

[00:38:44] And they're right. It is about them, but not in the way they think. It's not that they weren't good enough. It was that the parent loved them enough to make a tough decision. I mean, one of the worst times I went to a hospital and I took a consent and the girl just... She knew she couldn't. She already had other children, was struggling. After I took the consent, I walked out of the room. The adoptive parents were down the hall. And you could just hear her wailing and sobbing.

[00:39:13] Because she sensed that loss. She couldn't have done it. And she knew it. But it's like, it's not that you... It's about you, but not that you weren't good enough. You were loved enough that mom did something that was very hard. So we just need to adjust the perspective. Yeah. That's a really interesting point, Alice. Because I don't think we can... I don't think we can adjust our perspective.

[00:39:43] I think an insight adjusts a perspective for us. Do you see what I mean? Right. Yes. Yeah. I don't know how to put that. We can't make ourselves... We can't change our opinion. Right. You know, it's tricky to do that. And emotions are evolved, which makes it even more difficult.

[00:40:10] Because you do have a sense of loss, a valid sense of loss. But if you try and see... And again, everybody's going to experience loss. I mean, the adult parents experience loss because they couldn't have a biological child. Or they've lost or... You know, it's... Everybody experiences loss. But again, maybe spring off of that and see... Yes, it was terrible.

[00:40:41] Well, let's see that something beautiful has come out of it. Not that this didn't happen. But that... It's just like having a baby. I mean, I had two children. Believe me, going through labors. It's not for the faint-hearted. But then in the end, you get that beautiful baby and it was all worth it. Now, I'm not saying that they should have gone through it or anything like that. But kind of the analogy is sometimes, you know, the difficult things does produce something that's positive.

[00:41:10] That doesn't take away from the pain of labor. But at least coming out of it, if your mom was in a horrible situation, now you've got more people that love you and want to care for you. So it's not to take away. It's not less than, but it's more than in some ways. You know, now I have other people that love me. They don't have to love me because they're not my biological parent. But my parent loved me enough to go through this to get to that.

[00:41:38] So I think don't forget this, the hard part of it. But see, yes, something good did come out of it. Not wiping out the, you know, the heartache and the, you know, hard work to get to that point. But at least something positive has come from it. Because there's all, all of us have gone through things and then they look back and say, wow, you know, that made me a stronger person or I have a different perspective.

[00:42:08] Would we go through it again? No, we wouldn't want to go through it again. We wish we hadn't, but at least we can, you can't go back and change it. So let's see if we can, you know, look for some positives as well as, you know, recognize we suffered. We suffered and we still suffer for some of them. Yeah. And meaning as well, I think. So for me, there's a meaning thing about this.

[00:42:34] I was, I was doing a training on Friday afternoon and one of the, with a group of adoption professionals from an agency. And we were talking about the primal wound and I described how that had knocked me. So when I first read that book, there was a relief, right? About my reaction being normal.

[00:43:03] And then, then after that relief had gone, there was a, there was a worry. There was a fear that I'm stuck with these feelings of loss. Should we, should we just simplify it to that? Right. And, and then, and then, and then relief and a bigger, a more profound sense of relief. When I realized that I'm not stuck with this. Right.

[00:43:33] So there was relief. There was stuckness. And then there was more like joy about when I had this realization that I wasn't stuck with it forever. So if somebody said to me, I don't, I don't, I don't believe that the primal wound, I don't, I don't, I don't believe that we are. I don't believe that any of us are wound double, right?

[00:44:00] I don't think any of us are wounded because we're, we're, we're fundamentally unwoundable. Unwoundable. I think our essence, our essence at our core, trauma doesn't damage our core. Trauma damages our psychology, but that's not who we are in our psychology.

[00:44:26] And yeah, I'm glad that I read that book because I wouldn't have come to that realization. If I hadn't, if, if I hadn't been knocked down a peg or two, I wouldn't have climbed further up. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. That's what like, like post-traumatic growth.

[00:44:47] The metaphor, the metaphor I have for this is if you're in the sea and you've got a beach ball and you, you kind of lean over the, this beach ball and you push it to push it under the water. When you let it go, it usually bounces back higher than you pushed it under great, under, under water.

[00:45:05] And for me, that's what post-traumatic growth is, is we are, we, we come out of the, we come out of the, the, the difficulty stronger. We, we've seen the strength that we hadn't really appreciated that we had before. So I wouldn't, if I hadn't, if I hadn't had that, then I wouldn't have done this. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be doing the podcast.

[00:45:34] I wouldn't be doing the podcast. Right, right. See, it's not just the adoptees that, that struggle either after the fact, because I, a lot of the birth mothers, and I did remain in contact with a lot of the birth mothers because we pass information or pictures or things like that. And they were always afraid that the child would hate them for making that decision. And it's like, they're going to think that I just didn't care or I just threw them away. Okay.

[00:46:03] So it's, it's not just the adoptees that feel that, that struggle because the, the birth mother's like, well, I know this might be the best thing, but what if they hate me or think I didn't love them or something like that? I think it's the first book, first chapter in the book. And there was a birth mother that was struggling and said, well, if I do this, and she was young, young, just really was not equipped. She goes, but isn't the child going to hate me if I do this?

[00:46:30] And then my partner taught my other attorney in the office, told her the story about the adoptee. When he turned 18, he called our office and said, will you contact my birth mother and tell her, I want to thank her for doing this? You know, I've, I've had a wonderful life. I've won a scholarship to college of my dreams and, you know, but she gave that to me. And I know that that cost her emotionally, you know, and she probably cried when she signed the consent, but I know she did it because she loved me and I really appreciate it.

[00:47:00] So I think there's always the fear in the birth mother too, that the child will hate them. And it's because I'm doing this because I love you, not because I don't want you or I'm abandoning you, but, you know, I can't give you what you deserve. And I love you or I just, I'm not able to do it. You know, if it's foster care or adoption, I chose, you know, that. And I've seen birth mothers ask that all the time, all the time.

[00:47:28] And we had a licensed mental health counselor that would counsel with our birth mothers and he was an adoptee. And he would say, I can tell you from my own personal experience, I was adopted. And I thank goodness that my, my biological parents made that decision, you know, because I had a good life.

[00:47:50] And, you know, it goes both ways that the birth parents are worried too, that the child will hate them for thinking they're just abandoning or didn't care. And that's not the case. And like I said, that birth mother that was on the psychotic medicine and she was just struggling and what she went through to give, you know, and then it wasn't that she hated you. She went through a lot to give you something that she thought was better.

[00:48:18] So, I mean, I think there's trauma on both ends. And, you know, I can't fix it all, but I think if people read some stories and understand, these are some of the concerns birth mothers have and, you know, I haven't, you know, it's the love and grace. Why, why are people doing this? It's because they love you.

[00:48:41] And I know it's, you know, the human thing to think, you know, it's about me and it is about you, but not in the way you think. So. Fascinating. Fascinating. Is there anything else? I'm just watching, we're kind of coming up on time. Is there anything else that you'd like to share that I've not asked you about, Alice?

[00:49:02] Well, I just, like I said, I felt, you know, a really strong desire to write about my experiences because people just don't have a good view of adoption. And I've been blessed that I could see different sides of it. I mean, it's not just, I mean, you may be an adoptee, you may be a birth parent, you may be an adoption professional as an attorney, you may be the judge, but I've been able to see all the sides.

[00:49:27] And like I said, I would encourage, I'm a person of faith, so I wrote it from a faith, my book from a faith standpoint, and the faith follows the stories. So, I mean, I would encourage people that have been touched by adoption in whatever way to read it, just to see what's involved from all the different perspectives. And if you're a person of faith, you can see some faith lessons that, you know, that I saw. And there's even some miracles that I saw. I'm not kidding. And there's some humorous things in there, too.

[00:49:56] I mean, like I said, there's all different kinds of emotions, and you can see them in there. But my main goal is I want people to understand adoption, understand it's not something horrible. It can be something beautiful. It does involve loss and grief, but it can be a beautiful thing, and it should be about love, and we should all be trying to help one another. Indeed. Thanks, Alice. Thanks, listeners. Yep. We'll speak to you very soon. Take care. Bye-bye. All right. Thanks so much, Simon. Bye.