Grace With Louise Browne

[00:00:01] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees. I'm so excited to be joined by Louise Browne, looking forward to this conversation. Hi me too, I've been excited to see you in person for a long time, as much in person as we can, right?

[00:00:16] Yeah, as much as I can. Six thousand miles away. Thanks for having me on. I lived in England when I was in 1989 for a year. Where did you live in London? I went to school there. I lived in London in Knightsbridge, but I went all over.

[00:00:36] I'm an Anglophile. Well it was at school. Sure, the room was six people. Knightsbridge is where Harrods is, listeners. Yeah, it's really nice. It's just it. When you're a student, you live better than when you're an adult. We were just talking about that. London is 200 miles from me.

[00:00:59] I'm 200 miles north of London, but we're 6,000 miles away because you're in California. You told me the name of the town, but I still didn't know that. Louis or something? San Luis Obispo, but I'm actually in a town called, it's even smaller called the Tuscadero. So there you go.

[00:01:20] That's like, I'm going to try. I'm not going to give that a try. So I love talking to fellow podcasters. Yeah, me too. We're not about fellow adoptees, fellow podcasters because we're not just got our own learnings.

[00:01:34] We've got all the learnings that we've gathered over the years from our other conversations. So yeah, what does healing mean to you, Louis? What does healing? I knew you were going to start with that. Let's say, I was thinking about this last night.

[00:01:49] And I listened to a couple more episodes on your podcast and just that you had the healing question. And I've been going through a lot of healing lately. I don't think as adoptees, maybe even as people, but for sure as adoptees wherever really healed.

[00:02:04] I used to think so. I used to think, okay, I'll get some therapy, figure that out. I'll be healed. This will have a good relationship, figure out my stuff. I'll be healed type of thing. And the more I'm into this, I just think it's a process.

[00:02:18] Every day, kind of like working on healing. I think the word that comes to mind for me is grace, like giving yourself some grace for how we are. Like this morning, my husband and I had just a small discussion that was maybe more heated than normal.

[00:02:36] And I went right to my triggers, right? Like, oh, I'm not capable or lovable or all those things. And I sat there for a minute and I thought, okay, I need to like now I can sit there because I know enough and go, okay, this is a trigger.

[00:02:50] I'm reacting ridiculously. He's staring at me like what's wrong with you? You know, that kind of thing. But now I can sit there and then I can sit calmly say, okay, I need a moment that triggered me type of thing. But this is ongoing.

[00:03:04] I mean, I'm 55 years old, right? So I don't know. Healing to me means giving ourselves grace, having a community, meeting you, other adoptees. Our podcast gives us healing. I'm sure it does for you as well, just talking to other adoptees and other people that feel

[00:03:21] the way we feel inherently, you know? So healing is if we look at it at a micro level, like this little example that you brought from this morning, it's kind of catching ourselves in the moment. It's grace. It's presumably bouncing back faster rather than... Yes.

[00:03:47] That's a good way to put it. I think just having the forgiveness for ourselves in a way, because I think from what I've encountered and probably my podcast partner, Sarah Reinhart would say the same thing as that over the

[00:04:01] last three years on our podcast, you know, story after story, people have a lot of shame, guilt, rising above that. I'm worthy feelings, you know? It's funny because people are very accomplished and still have these feelings, right? Or still little kids wanting to be loved or accepted.

[00:04:19] And maybe that's humankind, but I think we have an extra layer of that as adoptees. And I think I've just learned to like be kinder to myself. I used to think, okay, be busy, be, you know, the good girl, get things done, be awesome

[00:04:35] at my job, be awesome at this, but you're running from something, right? So it's learning to sit with the uncomfortable, learn about yourself, you know, maybe having grace for other people in the conversation as well.

[00:04:49] You know, it's hard to sometimes listen to other points of view or people saying, you know, listening to an apology or maybe having the hard conversation. It's just about healing. It's just about going through every day trying to make it better.

[00:05:04] I don't think it's like we're ever going to, I feel like we're a little bit like the bucket with the hole in the bottom. And maybe the hole closes up a little or you get in a place where the sand doesn't just

[00:05:13] pour through, but it's still going to have the hole. I think maybe life long, you know? Yeah. What are we forgiving ourselves for? Being unwanted, right? I mean, or something or not being the good, the baby to keep or someone to love. I don't know. That's the question.

[00:05:36] Like I always feel like I'm guilty of something that I'm not guilty of, you know? Yeah. To me, it sounds like or it feels like forgiving grace feels like forgiving ourselves for our feelings. Yeah, maybe. It kind of makes me a little bit emotional.

[00:06:01] It's almost like seeing yourself as a baby. Like I've tried to, you know, Sarah was saying on our podcast to somebody that interviewed us that she cringes thinking about like going back to your baby self or, yeah, I hope you

[00:06:17] will say embrace your child or whatever, inner child. But for me, I feel like I'm starting to feel bad for that inner child like a little bit. You know, I used to just be like, well, I had a great adoption.

[00:06:28] I had nice parents who loved me and a loving family, but now I'm starting to be like, okay, I was taken from my mother. I was with her for six days. I was a really quiet, self soothing baby. I pushed people away. Like I didn't do anything wrong.

[00:06:43] It just was a baby, right? But I think somehow in our psyche growing up, we think, oh, I've done something wrong. Right. I better behave so nobody's mad at me. But let me push you away. You know, it's all those contradictory feelings. So yeah.

[00:07:02] What are your thoughts on that? There's so much there to some which that, right? You know, I have so many questions. The first one that came to me came to my mind was, you know, if you had

[00:07:15] interviewed many people who and any therapists or anybody and have you done it yourself, this parts work stuff where you look at the different parts of you. Have you done anything around that? I would yes in my own therapy, we've interviewed lots of different therapists.

[00:07:36] We've had on, you know, we've had on Amory Morello and Moses, Farrow, all sorts of trauma therapists. And I learned from their podcast when they're when we're interviewing them, I'm learning the whole time they're talking, right?

[00:07:49] Um, probably from to be honest with you, I'm learning from every guest that comes on when they're talking. I feel honored to even hear their stories. Like why am I worthy of hearing this story? Right.

[00:08:00] But for myself and therapy, I feel like I have, I've had the right therapist more recently in my life when I went through a lot of family counseling around a divorce. Um, I found the right person who asked me the right questions.

[00:08:13] Even though she wasn't an adoptee, it started to be like, you can talk about, you know, your family or your mom or your feelings and you're not guilty to bring that up. You know, you're allowed to have some pushback and that's a big thing.

[00:08:29] It's just being allowed to like, oh, okay, I can talk about this with somebody very openly. That's a big thing. Therapy is helpful in any form. In any form. Um, so the parts work is the one that came up for me when I'm talking about,

[00:08:47] you know, your relationship with, you know, you're thinking about your little baby, you know, yourself as a little baby. It's that part of it. Um, but some of the things that you just said then got me, got me really

[00:09:01] thinking about what I was saying a couple of minutes ago. So for me, it's like, I used to worry about worrying. Right. Yes, I like that. Yeah. Or I should put that on my wall. I used to worry about worrying. I think I still worry about worrying.

[00:09:17] I used to. And somebody blew that apart for me. A guy from the US, a mentor coach or the kind of a guy. I think he lives in Santa Barbara. I'm not sure. Gackle Mike. That's near me, by the way. Oh, is it? Okay. Yeah. Um,

[00:09:39] a guy called Michael Neil and he's not in the adoption space. Right. Um, but he, he, he is a kind of third generation of practitioner guy or something of a, of a philosophy created by an adoptee actually. Oh, is it connection?

[00:10:05] And he was at this guy's a Scottish, a Scottish guy called, um, called Sydney Banks. Have you come across this guy? He's not alive. He's not alive anymore. He didn't, he's an adoptee. Um, and he had a, an awakening experience on a marital harmony weekend. And, um, yeah.

[00:10:32] And it changed, it's changed, it changed his life and he created something called the three P's called the three P's. I'm going to look this up. And, uh, Sydney, Sydney Banks with a Y. With a Y. I feel like I have seen it. Maybe you've posted about it.

[00:10:49] I don't know. He lived in, um, yeah. He lived in on Salt Spring Island, which is, uh, off of Vancouver in Columbia, Columbia. So a couple hundred miles north of you, I would guess maybe. Um, yeah.

[00:11:04] Uh, so this guy, he, he, this guy trains some people and, and then that guy trains some people. And one of the guys, the third tier down was this guy called Michael Neil and he was the one that helped me see this,

[00:11:17] um, you know, worry about worrying life. So what Simon? You're worried. So what? Why are you worried about worrying? Uh, and then, um, and so yeah, great. I mean, I, I somehow that comes to mind that comes to mind when I think of grace.

[00:11:35] And then another one would be for me, uh, perhaps closer to a, what many of us would consider a classic kind of trauma response. And what I think of my trauma response would be, uh, angry, angry about being angry. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I know that one too.

[00:11:59] Because then you're angry and you're so upset yourself for being angry. It's the weirdest. Yeah. And then you're embarrassed by being angry. And this, this guy, Michael Neil, um, he, he talks about becoming a moron. We've got more on our mind.

[00:12:16] So we've got worry, worry, and then worry, and then worry, and then worry. And like, I've done all this work. Why am I, I've achieved all this. Why am I still worrying? I, um, a good guy. Why am I still worrying? People like, why am I still worrying?

[00:12:36] What? You know, it just, yes, dancers, dancers lie way upstream of thoughts and way upstream of, uh, they sure do. You know, like, talk and way upstream of story, you know, when you're saying, when you're saying worrying, I'm thinking anxiety, right? Well, yeah, worry about worrying.

[00:12:58] What would be called anxiety, but I've never called it that. Me neither. No. Never called it anxiety. Listen, my nickname growing up besides I had a few nicknames. I had, um, Heisman from my dad because he's a football player and I pushed people away.

[00:13:11] So, you know, the Heisman trophy at the hand. But my, my nickname from all friends and family because I'm Louise was Weezy, right? Well, when I was little, it was always like, Oh, Weezy's worrying. Oh, worry. Weezy. It's like, okay.

[00:13:26] No, I mean, I just thought, oh, I'm a worrier and my son would, my son is 25 now and be like, mom, I'm fine. Why are you worrying? You know, all this, and I'm like, it's my thing. I can't, I'm trying so hard in life not to worry, but

[00:13:40] what I really realized it's anxiety. And the anxiety comes from not knowing from abandonment. Right. I think it's so like you said, upstream. It's so in our core that it gives our mind something like, I think it's almost like you're, um, who was I talking to?

[00:13:58] But it's like your mind is when you're a baby and you're taken from your mom, you're not, you're kind of searching, searching, searching constantly, right? For security and you may go into a family, you may go into foster care, you may go somewhere that's horrible.

[00:14:13] No matter what it is, you're going to adapt quickly. Like, let me, this is how I get food. This is how I get love, you know, all of this as a baby, but your mind's still constantly searching. How do I fit from when you're little? Right.

[00:14:27] So you start to have this worry like hypervigilance. I was always really aware of my surroundings, watching people. I've never slept well. I still don't sleep well. I sleep better now, you know, because we know all the things do your breathing, you know, like you,

[00:14:44] you learn your stuff, so you put it away. I'd put mine in a little box and then I'll open that box tomorrow. I do all these mental games, right? But, but it's still there. I'm still such the worrier, you know, it's funny worrying about worrying.

[00:14:57] That's just so what? So what? Right. So what? Nothing's, it doesn't change anything. That's one thing I really realized through my, the last person that I worked with. Um, she was like, she had a really good analogy. I'm going to share here.

[00:15:13] I don't know if I've ever shared it maybe somewhere, but she would say, okay, I'd tell her all these things like, okay, this is happening. And if this doesn't happen, this will happen. You know, you go to the extremes, right? For sure.

[00:15:25] So yeah, if you don't hear from someone, they're dead on the freeway. Right. That's like, you go right to the negative, right? There's something even though I'm a positive person, I think that would surprise people as I go right to like, oh, that person's for sure dead

[00:15:39] now or that this is going to happen because the plane will crash, whatever it is, right? So she said, yes. Thank you for looking for the word. So she was like, okay, can we, where I used to see her was outside.

[00:15:53] It was in an office building that looked down on an old cemetery. So she, she would say, can we look at the cemetery and like look out the window, pick like a grave site and like, you know, put all your worries,

[00:16:06] put all your stress and anxieties in that grave and let's have a little funeral for it. Like when you're guilt, whenever I'd have anything like guilt about something I did during parenting that haunts you every day, you just

[00:16:18] talked to me about something with guilt, like you keep it, right? Like I feel so bad I did this or bad I did that. And she'd say, let's go bury it, have a little funeral for it, feel sad, you can embrace it, you can say that really sucks.

[00:16:32] That's there. And then come back and visit it. So like you can, you can go away. Do you bring that to breakfast with you? Do you bring it to work with you? No, you can come back on Sunday and visit that guilt that, you know, so it

[00:16:44] gave me a space to like visualize where I was putting my anxieties and my pain in my guilt and I could visit it, but it's not going to be with me every day. You don't live in the cemetery, right? So it's kind of an interesting analogy.

[00:16:58] I really, it's like the one thing that stuck with me from all those years with her, I was like, oh, I'm going to bury something and then go visit it, but I'm not going to live in the cemetery. I don't know if that makes sense.

[00:17:09] It's kind of a long story. It does. So, yeah, I'll sum it up with something from another mentor, coach guy of mine, and a different guy, a brick guy this one. The past is a place of reference, not a place of residence. Ah, I like that too.

[00:17:31] You have some good ones. I do. And I've got an even better one. I've got an even better one. I don't often swear, right? Feeling shit is as natural as having a shit. Like that one too. What if feeling shit doesn't mean that we are shit? Right. Yeah.

[00:17:59] And I'll go back to the... I like that. I'll go back to the Californian guy here, right? I believe. We've become a motivobic. Yes. We have as a society and we have become a motivobic. How are you doing? We lie in the UK. We lie. Fine. Not bad.

[00:18:26] Oh, for sure. Yeah, for sure. We talk about swimming, right? At the Tadchester swimming pool, they've had an outbreak of something for the last 20 or so years that I've been going there. It's called not baditis. Not bad. Not bad. How are you doing? Not bad.

[00:18:51] Is that the best you've got? Yeah. The best you've got. It's catching. It is. Well, gosh, I mean, people are so in there. What if you ask someone, they're like, you know, I'm not that well today? You know, it's like, wow, okay. But we've all become a motivobic.

[00:19:09] We have. But then what about us? What about us and our trauma? Like, how trauma is going to drown us? How those feelings are so freaking scary. Like 10 years ago, I was sitting on a train to London reading a book about this sort of stuff.

[00:19:35] And I absolutely lost it with another somebody else on the train who was shouting in his mobile phone. And and I and I and I lent over to him and I said, would you mind keeping your voice down? Yeah. And he didn't and you shut it.

[00:19:55] And the next minute I was over to him, I prodded him on the shoulder and said, if you don't shut up, yeah, I'm going to put your head through that window. It doesn't enraged you. Rage. It raged me. And and that's scary. So, yeah, like we're a motivobic

[00:20:20] in the Western world. Yeah. And as as adoptees, we've got even more reason to be over motor, motor, motor phobia because the feelings that are coursing through our bodies scared the bejesus out of us. So no wonder. Yeah. But I wasn't clear what I meant by upstream.

[00:20:45] Yeah, tell me. I didn't mean I didn't mean I meant upstream. Beyond our feelings, beyond our thoughts to who we are. We say you said I am a warrior, right? So that's identifying with them with a habit. Right.

[00:21:10] I am a warrior and I can say that as well. I am insecure. I'm insecure about business or yeah, I am insecure. I'm insecure about business. So I identify with the feeling we identify with the feeling. But but this is here's the thing, right?

[00:21:27] How we feel isn't who we are. That's right. I like how we feel isn't who we are. We are not our trauma. No, not us. How we think it's not us. But we're obsessed with how we think.

[00:21:49] We're obsessed with how we feel and we're doing this hard work to try and change how we think. I want I need to be so. So I've been on my learning journey 17 years, whatever. Yeah, since I came out on the phone. Right.

[00:22:03] So I why aren't I making more progress? Why? Why aren't I feeling that way? But but that's that's why grace. Yeah. Grace, I said what are we giving us for giving ourselves for? And you gave lots of different things.

[00:22:21] And what stood out for me is what are we forgiving? What what what do we we forgive ourselves for our feelings rather than China? Trying to push them away. Yeah, to pretend they don't exist. Well, pretend they don't exist. Drown them with alcohol. Yeah, exactly.

[00:22:42] A few of so I haven't listened to your podcast. Have you had Pamela on Pamela Chara Nova? No, but I know her now and we'd like to have her and we'd like to have you on.

[00:22:55] Yeah, well, I'm ready for you whenever that would be that would be cool. She attributes attributes. I don't know how you pronounce it. She attributes her biggest healing to stopping to push, stopping pushing her emotions away. Yeah, I agree.

[00:23:25] This because in the last we've I've been coming out of the fog for three years. I mean, really it's taken this long. I didn't even know there was a fog, a community, any of it. OK, so the last three years I embrace how I feel.

[00:23:40] And I think it in some ways it shocks. I'm starting to, you know, not overnight. You start to kind of say, I'm allowed to feel this way. I'm in a writing group with other adoptees that Anne Hefron runs actually.

[00:23:53] And she always says there's like a there's like a level, like a hand, like a flame, right? So if you can we're always trying to burn at this level, but there's something keeping the candle down, right? But if you can you can go around and talk about it,

[00:24:08] you can still keep your stuff there because it's not going to go away. And like we're still going to have our arc over us. That kind of like you said, will it ever go away? I don't think so.

[00:24:19] You're in the 17 years and you're still saying I'm a warrior, but you don't identify yourself as your emotions anymore, right? So I can say I have this and this, but I'm able to look at it now and have my emotions and say, OK, I'm allowed to get mad.

[00:24:35] I'm allowed to not feel like everything's OK. I used to be the one in my family that, you know, we had an incident. My mom and dad who are now deceased, both my parents have deceased in the last few years, my adopted parents,

[00:24:49] I'll call them my mom and dad. That's what I call them. They came to visit me in Los Angeles. My son was probably in the third grade. We had a new house. I was with my ex-husband and my brother wasn't there.

[00:25:01] My adopted brother, he's not he's not an adoptee. He's their child. So it was just our small family and everybody was like not getting along in the kitchen. It was too much time together, the whole thing.

[00:25:13] And I just had hurt feelings like that I was pushing him down. So I'm trying to make everybody happy and who wants what to drink and make sure the house looks great. And as my mom liking is my dad, everything perfect, right?

[00:25:26] And I just kind of lost it and I went in the bedroom and just laid down and was crying. I just was like, I can't deal like everything bubbled up all this weird stuff around everything. And I'll never forget this.

[00:25:37] My dad, who actually is kind of my biggest ally in my childhood life, he came in the room and he said, hey, we's are you coming out? You know, to have dinner and what are you doing?

[00:25:48] I said, you know, I just need to sit here for a minute. He goes, we don't know what to do when you're like this. Like he literally said, I just I thought about this just the other day, this memory came to me that.

[00:26:01] Well, if you don't come out, when we're not going to have any fun because I'm the one that makes everybody get along, right? And I thought, well, it was so eye opening. I wasn't out of the fog.

[00:26:10] I hadn't really dealt with a lot of this stuff, but it impacted me. I remember thinking, well, why do I have can't I have a bad you guys are always having a bad day. Everybody is having their problems.

[00:26:21] Why cannot, you know, and I realized what a fixer I was like, what if I was that kid in the family and brought some joy? I made sure everybody was happy, you know. Meanwhile, you know, I'm rebelling and I'm growing up and going through all sorts of stuff

[00:26:36] and nobody asked the right questions. Why is she doing all this? You know, I just thought I'm crazy. So you keep it to yourself. You push down your feelings. Something's wrong with me. I don't want anybody to see that. So let me just toodle through my life, right?

[00:26:50] Pushing things down and anger is under the surface there too because I can get really angry. But now I let myself get angry because so bad to keep it in. That's how we have illness. And so as you were sharing, as you were sharing

[00:27:04] what your dad said to you, he said, we don't know what to do when you like this. I I would I heard it as you're upset. We don't we don't know what to do to make you not upset anymore.

[00:27:21] Not we don't know what to do if you're not here to guide us. I know. Yeah. Yeah. So. Like, who am I if I'm not putting on a happy face? Right. Like, what do they do with me?

[00:27:36] You know, and it's well, I think that was always my thing. Like. I just tried to blend in and fit in and like all of us. I feel like every adoptee that comes on and tells their story to us. We can have vastly different adoption stories.

[00:27:56] But right away, I'm like, oh, I totally get that or I get this. And it's just so relatable. Everything's so relatable. And I have had friends. I'm sure you have two people outside of the adoptee community who will be like,

[00:28:08] well, I have those problems because of divorce or I have this because of loss. I mean, there's a lot of things you can lose a mother and childbirth. You can go through horrible divorce, poverty, all sorts of things. But there's something very particular to being an adoptee

[00:28:20] that's only other adoptees get. And that's why I think we have such a problem as a community communicating it outside of the community. Because people are like, well, what's the problem? Get over it already. He, I don't know. It's an interesting. The limit.

[00:28:39] So I think you talked about we will never really heal. A realization that I came to for me that really helped last year is looking at healing on two levels. So psychologically, we'll always be healing. But we are not our psychology. And underneath our psychology, underneath our trauma,

[00:29:14] underneath our thoughts and our feelings. That place, some people call it consciousness, is it is never it was never wounded. And if it was never wounded, it never it doesn't need to heal. And we explain this more. So like, we have our we have our we have our

[00:29:39] overlaid psychology, which we're always working in, right? Like the but underneath the con then we have the consciousness explain that part. So I don't know which way to go with this. If you see me doing the the fifth and the diamond, yes, yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:02] So the fist is our trauma. The diamond is who we are. Hmm. Hmm. OK. So that's one metaphor. Yeah. But the fist could be our psychology, if you want to say. OK. The fist could be our feelings. Fist could be our thoughts.

[00:30:19] The fist could be anything but it's not. Yeah. I like the visual thing. Yeah. So I'll give you a note there. I'm trying to give another visual to do. Oh, it's just completely gone now. And that's bad in it. And I can't think of that.

[00:30:44] I've got to give myself. This happens to me every day. Give yourself grace. I've got to give myself grace. Right. Yes, you do. We we are not. Think of screen, think of consciousness as the screen. Hmm. Yeah. As you're looking at a screen. Right.

[00:31:12] You can see you and you can see me. But that's the content. On the screen, it's not the screen. Yeah. So I guess it's good. Right. So it's consciousness. You've got two things, consciousness and content. Consciousness, content, screen and movie screen. Yeah, it's good. Mirror and picture.

[00:31:47] Yeah. Who. How we feel is we are what we think. Isn't who we are. Our feelings come and go. What do they do? Think what do they come and go? I do think.

[00:32:08] Well, I think that what you think this is one thing I do believe is what you think if you think it over and over starts to become who you are because we believe our own.

[00:32:21] Things we tell ourselves in the negative, you know, like I think we, you know, I think a lot of thinking, thinking becomes recurrent. Yes, become beliefs and have it. Beliefs like that and at least try out driver habit. That's why I'm saying upstream, right? So upstream, right?

[00:32:39] So upstream for me. Think of that that that that story I told you. Yeah, I lost my shit with the kid on the train. Yeah. The loud kid yelling into his mobile. Right. So my action. Threatening him. Came from my feeling of anger and

[00:33:16] and frustration and invalidation and lack of control. I'd asked him to think. Actually, he ignored me. So lose my shit, threaten the guy. I didn't hit him. I didn't put his head through the window. I just threatened him. Right. So threatened, but it was scary. It was scary.

[00:33:38] So my action is driven by my feeling. My feeling is driven by some some thoughts going on for me about how I do this stuff. Right, deeper, not listening to me. Yeah. Why won't you listen to me? Did I do why isn't listening to me?

[00:33:58] Why is he upsetting? What why is upsetting the whole of why is upsetting me? I'm trying to read my book. I don't understand in the book. So I focus on the book because he's shouting. Right. I'm done. So upstream. So up.

[00:34:12] So I've gone from my action, threatening him upstream to my feelings. Upstream to my thoughts. What's upstream of that? What's upstream of all that? That's my that's my that's my consciousness. That's who I am. That's your conscious. Yeah, that's your real self. That's my true self.

[00:34:36] That's my true self. Yeah. But we identify. We identify. Yeah. I am a podcast. I am a warrior. I am an adoptee. I am insecure. I am we know that it's right. I am there. I am right. I am there. We focus. We're focused on that. Yeah.

[00:34:59] The what comes after. So if I keep on talking like this, there's no point coming on your podcast because I'm just sharing my stuff when I'm supposed to be talking. No, it's fascinating. I'm like, this is really well,

[00:35:11] well, I feel like we both have our stories out there. So I sort of like just this conversation is interesting to me. I love healing, you know, the thinking of healing. Like that's what my writing group that I'm in. I wouldn't really say it's a class.

[00:35:27] That's more like a group led by Anne. It's so healing because of what we actually get to and share with each other that I never share with anybody else. Like what comes out when you're relaxed, when you're heard, when you're really putting aside

[00:35:42] like you're not your feelings, right? Like we had an exercise the other day where she's just picking random words, like, okay, go and write about French toast or whatever it was, you know, a breakfast thing. And you think, I don't want to write about that.

[00:35:57] The stuff that comes out from that is really shocking when you have a short amount of time to write about something when you're just in a group of comfortable people. And it may not be writing for everybody. There may be art or speaking

[00:36:10] or just anything that where you feel yourself and heard. I think that's kind of what happened to you on the train, right? I don't like not being heard. I always felt like it was never heard. I never had my feelings validated and all of that.

[00:36:24] So what comes out is the real stuff, like who we are, the essence and that some of it's very beautiful, right? Some of our, I do think adoptees, like there's so many that don't survive. I mean, I think people are surprised

[00:36:38] when we do educate them how many people are, you know, have committed suicide or drugs and alcohol are not doing well. I think that surprises people because they always know the, oh, I have a friend who's adopted, who's very happy, right?

[00:36:53] So I think that surprises the outside world. But I think when we get here, where you and I are and maybe some other people in the community where we're working on this and we have a community about it, I think we're almost super powered now

[00:37:07] because maybe we had to go through all this to educate others to help, right? I feel like there's a higher calling in it that's part of healing as well. Like how do we use our pain and get over, I had a lot of guilt talking about this

[00:37:24] because people might hear it or your family or people would be hurt. But once you get over all of that, like, okay, I can talk about this. I'm in my fifties, this is how I feel. I think that's healing too, because it's helping other people

[00:37:38] that maybe aren't gonna talk about it. Maybe there's some guy driving in England on a windy road listening to your podcast who would never talk about this with anybody that somehow feels, oh, that helped me, right? Listening to Simon helps me. And that is another part of healing

[00:37:56] is for us to be helping. I think we've come this big path to be here. I hope that makes sense. I didn't feel hurt on that train. Right. I got that from you. Like, I got that from you. You didn't feel hurt. That's a big thing for me.

[00:38:13] You felt, you feel hurt in your group, feeling hurt. Yeah. Feeling hurt is comforting. I wasn't comfortable. Right, right. I wasn't comfortable. And I feel hurt with you, right? Or if you get on some of our adoptee groups that are nice to be in,

[00:38:34] you can say something and you're hurt, you know? Hopefully that's you are hurt. There's problems with all groups, of course, but... Indeed. You know? But it's a nice... And being validated. Being validated. Being validated. I think validation is a double-edged sword.

[00:38:55] Because then we become what in a thing of our own. I'll give you an example. So, 17 years ago, this humongous thought that I have never thought before occurs to me. And it comes with incredibly powerful emotions. I've sworn already this, so I'm gonna do it again, right?

[00:39:29] I'm talking to a coachy type person and I'm talking about my birth mother and I'm talking about the teddy bear. She, she, my birth mother, she didn't fucking love me enough to fucking keep me. She gave me the fucking teddy bear as a fucking consolation bite.

[00:39:53] The woman says, Sarah says to me, not your Sarah, a different Sarah. I'm a mum, Simon, and I don't think it was probably like that. Yeah. Ping! The volcano stopped erupting. Wow. Just having that. A little bit of smoke coming out the top.

[00:40:23] Bearing in mind, I'd never felt, I'd never thought that way about my, I'd never really given my birth mother much thought at all. But I definitely hadn't thought about that and I'd never thought about her and I'd never thought that thought, right? But she challenged the thought.

[00:40:44] What would have helped? What would have, what would my life have been like? Who knows, right? What would my life have been like if she'd said, that's terrible, Simon, that's terrible. Right. Yeah, she didn't just validate, right? There's some things that, because we all,

[00:41:02] I feel like we get in these, what's it called when you, we all say the same thing and we go in a tube together. Like, mm-hmm, group things. So it's like, we can do too much of that. That's why I think it's important

[00:41:16] that we do communicate that others know out there because the more we educate others, the adoption industry will change, number one, slowly. But the more people that know, because if we're just talking to ourselves all the time, we're validating, oh, that's horrible, that's horrible.

[00:41:34] But then sometimes, like you said, I doubt highly doubt your birth mother. That was her and that was no consolation price. She gave everything there, right? Everything. I mean, I'm a mother, I can't imagine what it takes

[00:41:45] to do that in the suffering that goes on on that side. You know? There's so much pain in adoption. That's what's so interesting is it's a celebration for one group and painful for two others, right? Even if you're a kid and you grow up

[00:42:03] and you're happy enough as a kid or whatever goes on, there was pain that came into our existence. And so it's weird to see ourselves like that's part of the healing for me is seeing myself. I look at pictures now when I was a little baby

[00:42:18] and I always thought I looked kind of, it's interesting because later as a kid, you're smiling or you're in whatever but as a baby, I'm looking very lost. I can see it. It's so strange. I know you can see a lot if you want to in things

[00:42:31] but I just see it differently now. It's like, I'm like what happened? You know, you're like an alien transplanted into another life and then you adapt and you grow and you figure out how to make that work but you're living two lives in a weird way.

[00:42:46] You're always living two lives and you can never really fit into one completely and it's strange so we have to make our get to our higher conscience or whatever. It's kind of a deep conversation but I don't know. I don't believe, yeah right?

[00:43:07] And I like your podcast because you do talk about healing because there is healing to be done and I met Pamela recently who you brought up. I haven't, we haven't met a lot of adoptees because of Zoom and we do this kind of Sarah lives in Kansas City.

[00:43:22] I live in California and I've met, I have a local group here. She's met some people that have come through Kansas City but we haven't like gone to a big event and we recently were in New York with a lot of adoptees as you saw

[00:43:34] and that's where I met Pamela in person. It's like she's such a bright light and you can see how much work she's done. She's just so, like she just shines right? Because of, I do think she's found a place to feel more empowered

[00:43:49] and I like getting that feeling myself. I feel more empowered now than I've ever felt it was such a journey to get here like so many highs and lows, right? Coming out of the fog was scary. It's shocking when you see the puppeteer behind the stage, you know

[00:44:04] the hand that works the puppets and then you're like, wait, what? How did I never think about this stuff? It's so crazy all the thoughts that crash in, you know? You know, all of it. What do you think? You just dwell.

[00:44:25] I think you might have been gonna ask my next three questions. And I normally call my mum at this time, and I... Yeah. But we were chatting before we hit the record button so that took a bit of a little bit of time. What have been...

[00:44:48] What healing moments, what profound healing moments come to mind? For me, I think some healing moments for me just reading things, like reading journey of the adopted self. Even the primal wound at the beginning, that's how we came out of the fog.

[00:45:09] So if you don't know our story really, we started our podcast. I think that we were both adoptees who knew we had stuff because we were adopted but it kind of sat at that surface level. Like, oh yeah, don't hug me.

[00:45:23] We have shirts, by the way, don't hug me, I'm adopted, right? Like, yeah, all the funny things you do when you meet another adoptee, like, oh, I get it, I get it. You just get things. But then we never really...

[00:45:34] We saw that in an ice cream truck for six years and we never really dug deeper. A few times we would dig deeper, but we didn't attribute a lot of stuff going on in our lives to any of this trauma. It was always like, okay, I'm an adoptee

[00:45:49] and I have this weird stuff, but these are my other issues, right? So reading for me, just we read on the podcast, we actually do a book with our podcast so it's not like we can skip, we can't skip the reading. But I know you... Yeah.

[00:46:03] That's the worst part though is because we have to actually read every chapter and some of it's, and we had to do it timely for the podcast because we're weekly now and we were bi-monthly back then but it's like, okay, I don't wanna read this next chapter

[00:46:18] but then that, it's like we came out of the fog in fast time because we read every week and then we had each other to discuss it with and it was so, those were aha moments for me. I remember just laying in bed sometimes just sobbing

[00:46:32] and being like, oh my God, there's words for what I've been feeling. I think that was the most healing moments is just having the words, like if you can name it, it helps. I think naming something helps, like knowing, I mean, not just saying, oh, I have anxiety,

[00:46:49] but naming, okay, there's a reason I have abandonment issues. It's not just cause I'm a freak, right? I'm a freak with everybody else that has a ban on issues. Like I get it. We're freaks together. Can I get to do these in men's sizes,

[00:47:05] these t-shirts don't have me. Yeah. Oh for sure. Okay, I have all sorts of men's sizes. Yeah, my, I used to work with my wife. So I started working with my wife in 1988, got together in 1993. At some point, that her and another girl that I worked with,

[00:47:32] they found out that I didn't like being touched, before we would do that, like, and they were like, and I'd go rigid. Right, just kind of pull back. So I could have done with my wife's t-shirts. I am into hugging now,

[00:47:49] but I probably still got worked on that. The primary word for me was, probably now I, I just got it. I said the validation was a double-edged sword, right? And I talked about the negative side of validation. Yeah. There's a positive side on the other edge. Yes.

[00:48:18] That's what the primal wound was for me. There was a relief. So I'd done a lot of work, I'd done a lot of work on myself. I was looking back at my timeline. So, I read the, like I received the primal wound 10 years ago, not the trauma.

[00:48:44] Not the trauma. I got that. 57 years. Yeah. So I was, I'd been doing consciousness work on myself for seven years before I read the primal wound. But it took me back, it took me down. So the metaphor I use for this one is like,

[00:49:09] either trying to get a soccer ball. Yeah. In the pool or in the sea, or a beach ball and push it down underwater. It comes up. It comes up, right? So what I, how I recall this from being a kid is you can, you can push it,

[00:49:31] you push it down a foot. But it bounces back higher than that. It bounces back every three foot. Yeah. And that to me is post-traumatic growth. And that's what the, what the primal wound did for me. It took me down. Then I was talking to a coach lady

[00:50:04] from the States somewhere. She worked with that guy I mentioned earlier on. Mm-hmm. She was one of his like trainees or whatever. Another cool Californian maybe. A new Californian, yeah. And that's when I realized this second layer, this unwoundable essence. Our psychology will be forever wounded. Yeah.

[00:50:38] Our essence is untouched. And I came up with this idea of being fundamentally unwoundable. Yeah, I like that. But I didn't come up with it as just a nice little bumper sticker. No, it was a big. I came up with it as a realization.

[00:51:01] Like it's an experience, right? So the the loss is an experience. So it takes, I heard this, I don't know which one of my guests I heard this one, I should remember. She said, it takes an experience to counter an experience. Oh yeah. I like that. That's true.

[00:51:25] I mean, so how many positives do you have to hear to negate a negative, right? So. Well, you have to, if you've had a negative experience, you have to have a positive experience. You have a negative experience and you have a positive thought.

[00:51:38] It doesn't have to say power. That's right. It's like, I'm stuck for a metaphor. No, it's true. If you're, I mean, you have to have, well, that's why naming it and having the words for me, like journey of the adopted self came after the Primal Moon for us,

[00:51:56] but that one really was like the ball, right? I felt like you're pushing it down and whoa, big stuff. Every chapter, I was like, holy cow. You know, I went through like a depression reading that and the depression was the loss of,

[00:52:13] it wasn't a depression of, I'm depressed. So, I mean, I was depressed from it, but it was more of a depression of loss. Like, oh my gosh, there's words for this loss I've always felt and I'm grieving it and I'm understanding it and it's really scary.

[00:52:31] I'm probably not as much fun to be around right now. I have husbands like who the heck are you? You know, I'm sure all these things were happening, but for me it was also extremely validating in the positive sense because you're having words to name what you've felt

[00:52:47] and other people that have experienced it, I think that's why Journey of the Adopted Self because she was an adoptee, you figured that out late in life, Betty Jean. It resonated too because she wasn't like a 21 year old therapist saying this.

[00:53:01] This was like someone who came into it very late as well and then having the words behind it and the reasons behind it and all the research, it's like oh my gosh, thank you. But also this is scary. It's easier to be in the fog a little bit

[00:53:19] even though it's not easier because now I feel more of my true self than ever. So I like myself better now but being in the fog was comfier, I guess that's more comfortable. In a weird way just because you don't have to deal. Like anything, you know.

[00:53:38] I come to the realization about this today, yesterday. I think we will forever be coming out of the fog. I say that all the time but it's funny, I always say I think I'm one foot in the fog

[00:53:53] and then I'm out and then it's a foggy day again. Yeah. Yeah. So have you heard me? Nobody talks about what comes after the fog. Yeah, what comes after the fog Simon? Yeah. So we'll play the metaphor, right? We'll continue the metaphor.

[00:54:14] Okay so the fog like you can put it with me, right? The fog is, right? Okay, so what's the next thing that you see? Sun. Yeah, but you'd be, yes, you can see some sun. Yeah. I'm guessing. But you're becoming aware of something, aren't you? Right.

[00:54:36] What are you becoming aware of? You now see the sky, you see everything you can see because of the fog. Right, okay and what else do you see? Mm-hmm. You become more aware of some trauma that, so would the sky be a good metaphor for trauma?

[00:54:52] Yeah, the sky, well, maybe the clouds are the metaphor for the trauma and the sky is sort of. That's where I would go. That's where I would go. The sky is like the, I think the sky is the bigger space

[00:55:06] what you're talking about, who we could really be potentially if we got through the cloud. You know, the cloud is the trauma. You are. I don't think we have to be our trauma, do we? I don't want to be our trauma, Simon. You are the sky.

[00:55:25] We are the sky. The cloud is the trauma. So that's what we see when we come out of the fog. We don't see the sun first, we don't see the cloud first, sorry, you don't see the sky first. We see a dark, black storm cloud.

[00:55:43] We become aware of our trauma. As you said, the trauma is the cloud. I have to ask you about it, you got that. The trauma, right? And we see and we're scared. It's scary. We think it's scary. Storm clouds are scary. We think there's a storm coming.

[00:56:09] We think we're gonna get really wet. We think we might get struck by lightning. Yeah, it is scary. But the real estate is better. And then the whole sky clouds over with black clouds and it's cold, it's raining, it's scary. It's lonely. It's lonely.

[00:56:35] And then sooner or later, the cloud storm passes, right? Yeah. We see the sunshine and we see the light. And we're still okay. And you know, this is going further from that than the storm can come back and you're not,

[00:57:01] I feel like I'm not as scared of the storm now. That's the thing. You're inside my head, because that's what exactly what I was gonna say. I'm liking this whole nature of evaluation. So like, here comes the next storm. I'm like, okay, I can handle that storm

[00:57:17] because now I know what storm is gonna come and go. Yeah, so you're less, and then sooner or later somebody points out to you from 6,000 miles away. Hey, Louise. Look at the sky. You didn't think I was this smart. Never underestimate us Californian Simon.

[00:57:42] Why are you bothered about the weather? Right? Yeah. So back to my swimming pool, right? The woman on the woman reception I saw her today. Yeah. I see it. She's a volunteer. Really? She's there. She's a volunteer. See every Wednesday, right? How are you? And she says,

[00:58:04] she gives me an answer about that's about the weather. And I don't, I haven't got, I've tried to get to the top of my head but I've tried to playing it with the, she doesn't get it. She doesn't get it.

[00:58:20] But maybe I'll next Wednesday if she does it, I'll say, yeah, you're telling me about the weather. I was asking about you. Say it, I think you should say it. I think people are so used to not engaging but being pleasant, but we're so lonely as a community,

[00:58:37] as a society underneath, I mean beyond adoption, the world's lonely right now. How are you doing? Not baditis, right? Not bad. Yeah, not bad. Or fine, fine. Fine. Voked up insecure, neurotic, emotional. That's what we were at this. I've never swore so much on the podcast.

[00:58:57] I've got an idea for you. I love it. I'm a big swearer. So that hit the guy, I swear too much, it's a problem. I'm glad that you're not. I'm horrible. But you know, really intelligent people swear. And this is what I read recently on Facebook.

[00:59:09] So it must be true. I was gonna swear back at you then. You can't argue with that. I can smell my white cooking, which means to me, we've been going for about an hour or so. Yeah, it's been lovely. I've got a request for you to mull over.

[00:59:28] Okay. First off, I think that seeing some of the humanity in the adoption stuff is big. I think that identity is the biggest issue. And I don't think that, well, I haven't yet found an adoptee who can explain identity clearer, clearly to me.

[01:00:05] And that means I have to go looking outside of adoptees for my clarity on identity. So with that in mind, I'd like to suggest that we do the podcast, but we do it on a book that's about identity and happiness that's not written by an adoptee.

[01:00:33] And then we do that. So we do that in that reading format that you do. That's just the subject. I'm gonna mull that over. And I have to mull that over with... You don't want to ask me what book it is.

[01:00:46] Okay, I would like to know the book. What is the book? Have you read it? Yeah, oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, a lot. Making sure. Okay, what else? So the book is called, You Are the Happiness You Seek. Okay, You Are the Happiness You Seek.

[01:01:07] And it's by Rupert Spira. Okay. Spira. And I have read it, but I've listened to it more than I've read it. Okay. I like that. I'm gonna listen. Whichever, yeah. So you won't get it on Audible, okay? Okay. If you go on to Rupert Spira.

[01:01:28] I'll go on it. Honest. You gotta buy it off his website. Rupert Spira SPIRA.COM. I'm going on a long drive today, so maybe I will start that, actually. Rupert Spira.com. And so he's got a page that says publications

[01:01:47] and it's called You Are the Happiness You Seek. And yeah, it's a... Okay, I'm interested in it because you've listened to it so many times. And it must mean a lot to you. So I would like to hear it. He means a lot to me.

[01:02:01] Yeah, I'm gonna give you feedback on it. That book is a short one. Okay. Some of his audios are like 50 hours long because they're boardings of events. Yeah. I listen to all the loads as well. Okay, I'm gonna check this out. Thank you.

[01:02:23] Can I ask you what your wife's cooking? Cause I might just come on over. It's got garlic in it. I wanna hang out with you there. Garlic, yeah. You have the dogs on the couch and you have garlic cooking.

[01:02:37] This has just been really nice to get to know you. I've looked at it. I've enjoyed it. It's healing, see? It's all about the healing. Thanks listeners. Thanks.