[00:00.000 --> 00:06.560] Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. So today, have
[00:06.560 --> 00:11.240] we got a treat for you. Linda Peaback is back. She's back for her third conversation, right?
[00:11.240 --> 00:17.320] Third conversation. Hey, how are you doing? I'm doing great. Thank you. Yeah. We'll pretend
[00:17.320 --> 00:25.280] that we haven't just been chatting for 10 minutes before. Okay. Yeah. So healing, what does healing
[00:25.280 --> 00:35.760] mean to you, Linda? Well, that's a wide open question. Healing means growth to me. And
[00:35.760 --> 00:41.640] in order to have growth, you have to have the spaciousness in order to have the room
[00:41.640 --> 00:47.500] to have that growth. And I think the hard part comes for us is the how to of how do you
[00:47.500 --> 00:54.440] put that into practice to cultivate that growth. And through growth, we have healing. And
[00:54.440 --> 00:59.320] my healing as all of us, we're just going to be healing if we choose to, until we no
[00:59.320 --> 01:07.060] longer walk on this earth. Yeah. So where's the spaciousness? What do you mean by the
[01:07.060 --> 01:12.080] spaciousness? Well, you know, you could think of that symbolically in a lot of different
[01:12.080 --> 01:17.480] ways. If I needed to put more clothes in my closet, I'd have to go through the ones
[01:17.480 --> 01:23.380] I have and eliminate to make space for the new ones. Now, I have a choice of whether
[01:23.440 --> 01:28.900] I want to let go of the old stuff, or if I want to hang on to it. And if I want to
[01:28.900 --> 01:34.400] hold on to it, then I'm not going to have any space for new clothes. Yeah. So if you
[01:34.400 --> 01:38.020] think of it in that way, it's pretty simple, you want plant plant flowers, you
[01:38.020 --> 01:43.740] need to provide the fertile ground, and the proper elements for those to thrive
[01:43.740 --> 01:51.860] and grow. So it's to me, it's a daily practice to create growth. And if I don't
[01:51.860 --> 01:58.060] do that, Simon, then I find myself not as often as I used to, because I can catch
[01:58.060 --> 02:04.740] myself so much earlier now, if I have that back, sliding thought of, you know,
[02:04.740 --> 02:09.060] it's too hard to have growth, it's too hard to make change, then I find my life
[02:09.060 --> 02:13.580] gets in chaos, and I pay the price. So I've learned to listen, I've learned the
[02:13.580 --> 02:21.020] wisdom of listening and doing the practice every day, of how to maintain
[02:21.420 --> 02:26.700] areas of where I always want to have new growth opportunities. And that's what I'm
[02:26.700 --> 02:30.460] dedicated to. It's my new chapter in my life. It's what I write about. It's what
[02:30.460 --> 02:33.860] my third book is going to be about is how things grow.
[02:34.940 --> 02:39.760] So take me back to the wardrobe analogy, right? So I kind of get the
[02:39.760 --> 02:47.240] metaphor, we need to get rid of some old, yeah, old clutter. And I've done this
[02:47.240 --> 02:51.760] with books, actually. I think I've done it with books more than I've done it
[02:51.760 --> 02:56.640] with old wardrobes, as a conscious kind of thing, like the bookshelf is full.
[02:57.080 --> 03:02.400] I've gone through, and I've taken them all to the charity shop. Yeah. But I
[03:02.400 --> 03:06.920] have done it with clothes as well. And I want to tell you a silly story about
[03:06.920 --> 03:10.760] the clothes that's just popped into my head, right? So I went into this
[03:11.160 --> 03:16.280] secondhand charity shop, right, near a thrift shop, thrift shops, I think we
[03:16.280 --> 03:20.760] call them in the States. We call it a charity shop in the UK. I went in, I
[03:20.760 --> 03:24.840] kind of, I went in, maybe thinking that they might have some books, like a
[03:24.840 --> 03:30.720] novel to read on the beach, right? But I saw this, I saw this shirt. And I
[03:30.720 --> 03:35.360] thought, I really like that shirt. And it was five, five pounds. So whatever
[03:35.360 --> 03:39.560] that is, six pounds, six dollars, seven dollars, something like that. Anyway,
[03:39.560 --> 03:45.640] so I bought this shirt. And then I realized on the drive home, that I had
[03:45.640 --> 03:52.320] actually given them the shirt. I bought the shirt from somebody from a
[03:52.320 --> 03:57.560] birthday, not like that moment, taking it to charity shop. And then I had
[03:57.560 --> 04:00.160] paid to buy my own shirt back.
[04:00.160 --> 04:00.840] Incredible.
[04:01.080 --> 04:05.160] Yeah. And I laughed at that point. This was the big thing for me, is
[04:05.160 --> 04:09.240] that I laughed at what had happened, rather than beating myself up,
[04:09.480 --> 04:11.960] which I think would have been the whole thing. I kind of laughed at the
[04:11.960 --> 04:15.760] stupidity of it. And here I am sharing stupidity with it. Okay, so
[04:15.760 --> 04:21.200] that's Simon and his old shirt. But what do you mean by letting go of
[04:21.200 --> 04:22.560] our old stuff?
[04:23.560 --> 04:29.640] Well, that could mean a lot of different things of, you know, sometimes
[04:29.640 --> 04:34.080] we have to forgive in order to create more space in our hearts. Maybe
[04:34.080 --> 04:38.240] that's ourselves, maybe other people or things that have happened to us
[04:38.240 --> 04:42.160] because we hang on to all those things that no longer serve us. There's
[04:42.160 --> 04:47.760] no space to have new growth. So the hard part, I think, is that you
[04:47.760 --> 04:53.400] have to get very willing to look and be reflective in order to see
[04:53.400 --> 04:59.800] what is clutter. What are the things that I'm so addicted to without
[04:59.800 --> 05:03.200] even knowing it, maybe their thoughts. Remember, we've always talked
[05:03.200 --> 05:08.080] about being addicted to our own way of thinking. That by far will keep
[05:08.080 --> 05:12.640] us in the same place forever. Well, we've always done that way. We've
[05:12.640 --> 05:15.760] always, you know, it always worked in the past, or let's get back to
[05:15.760 --> 05:22.640] the good old days. That prevents us, locks us down into not creating
[05:22.680 --> 05:27.120] more space. And at that point, you have to figure you've made a
[05:27.120 --> 05:32.240] choice, whether it's consciously or unconscious, to make change,
[05:32.240 --> 05:35.760] because change is freaking hard. And a lot of people don't want to
[05:35.760 --> 05:39.480] change. It's uncomfortable. It's messy. It's awkward. But it's
[05:39.480 --> 05:43.200] just, you know, the way of life of you've got a death and you
[05:43.200 --> 05:46.600] have a rebirth. You see it in nature, you see it in all kinds
[05:46.600 --> 05:50.960] of things. It's the pattern. And it's so simple, you know,
[05:50.960 --> 05:54.560] about taking those clothes out of your closet to create more
[05:54.600 --> 05:58.600] space for new clothes. But it's in the, you know, practice
[05:58.600 --> 06:04.640] of it that I think a lot of us get tripped up. It's hard. If not,
[06:04.640 --> 06:05.640] more people would do it.
[06:05.840 --> 06:10.600] More people would do it. Yeah. So yeah, Addicted to Thought. So
[06:10.600 --> 06:15.360] that was the thing that really came through on from the first
[06:16.320 --> 06:21.080] the first time we talked, we talked after the after the
[06:21.080 --> 06:26.120] release of your first book. And that was the Addicted to
[06:26.120 --> 06:30.000] Thought. That was one of the things that really struck me
[06:30.000 --> 06:33.640] listening to the book on audio. And that's why I asked you
[06:33.640 --> 06:36.520] about it. So as always, we've got links in the show notes
[06:36.520 --> 06:40.960] listeners, if you want to listen to that first interview that I
[06:40.960 --> 06:45.720] had with Linda when you were still going as Emma Stevens,
[06:45.720 --> 06:50.960] right? So we've got two, two, yeah, two names, one person.
[06:51.240 --> 06:59.320] What struck me is when you were describing the stuff that we're
[06:59.320 --> 07:03.360] letting go of. I kind of thought that you might, you might be
[07:03.360 --> 07:07.200] talking about thoughts, but you might be talking about beliefs
[07:08.000 --> 07:11.840] as well. Is that both?
[07:12.600 --> 07:17.280] Yeah, it's just the rigidity of thinking in towards anything in
[07:17.280 --> 07:21.520] your life. If you're so rigid, it doesn't leave any space for
[07:21.520 --> 07:24.240] resilience, creativity, or growth.
[07:24.520 --> 07:32.320] Yeah. So rigidity, you were talking about a construction
[07:32.320 --> 07:36.400] project before we hit record. So I was thinking about, you know,
[07:36.400 --> 07:41.720] there's this word that we that we that's banded out around a
[07:41.720 --> 07:48.640] lot, this word of mind mindset, right, mindset. And I think, well,
[07:48.680 --> 07:51.960] wouldn't wouldn't be better if I don't want it. I don't want to
[07:51.960 --> 07:58.120] be set in my ways. Right? You use the word rigid, rigid, rigid
[07:58.120 --> 08:02.800] in our thoughts, setting up ways, set in our mindset. I was
[08:02.800 --> 08:05.480] thinking I came up with this idea last year or something
[08:05.520 --> 08:09.920] about being mind fluid, mind fluid, mind fluid rather than
[08:09.920 --> 08:15.360] mindset. Yeah, in the hope that that we might be in the hope
[08:15.360 --> 08:20.640] that I might be more open to new suggestions, really, open to a new
[08:20.640 --> 08:29.400] way of thinking, a less less rigid in my mind. So, yeah, you
[08:29.400 --> 08:32.760] know, I was thinking of concrete. Yeah, when you're pouring
[08:32.760 --> 08:37.600] concrete for a construction project, and it sets, it sets,
[08:37.600 --> 08:41.760] it becomes rigid. You know, like sometimes we've got, you've
[08:41.760 --> 08:47.120] got, you've got concrete, and, and then you've got reinforced
[08:47.120 --> 08:51.760] concrete. Do you use these terms in the US? Reinforced concrete,
[08:51.760 --> 08:54.200] maybe you call it something else. So concrete is the stuff
[08:54.320 --> 08:58.600] that sand and sand and cement and the mix together and forms
[08:58.600 --> 09:02.720] your, your foundations of your house, right? And then what would
[09:02.720 --> 09:04.680] you call that concrete in the US? You have got a different
[09:05.600 --> 09:08.800] you know, it's okay. Yeah. But then the reinforced concrete is
[09:08.800 --> 09:12.960] when they when they they're building a wall out of it, and
[09:12.960 --> 09:20.840] they pour steel through it. Steel work and the steel work is so
[09:20.840 --> 09:28.080] the steel work is encased in the encased in the concrete. And
[09:28.120 --> 09:34.480] that is when we can become really rigid and set, set in our
[09:35.080 --> 09:39.240] ways. So we've kind of you talking, are you talking here
[09:39.280 --> 09:45.280] about seeing our own, seeing our own beliefs? Is that what you
[09:45.280 --> 09:45.720] talking?
[09:46.760 --> 09:49.640] Well, you have, first of all, you have to be willing to look at
[09:49.640 --> 09:53.880] your own beliefs, and be willing to accept what kind of change
[09:53.880 --> 09:58.200] has to happen in order to change a belief. And that could
[09:58.200 --> 10:02.680] mean, you know, deconstruction, dismantling everything you've
[10:02.680 --> 10:06.280] ever thought you've ever known about anything. And a lot of
[10:06.280 --> 10:09.240] people don't want to go there. A lot of people use substances to
[10:09.240 --> 10:13.720] cover that very thing up. So, you know, you it's the
[10:13.720 --> 10:17.880] willingness, you have to remain willing and open to look at
[10:17.880 --> 10:21.320] these things and examine a life unexamined, right? What we
[10:21.320 --> 10:25.640] know about that is, you've got to look at it.
[10:25.960 --> 10:35.960] Yeah. So what do any particular moments come into mind? Because
[10:38.440 --> 10:44.680] the stuff that you know, that when the most belief changing
[10:44.680 --> 10:50.360] moments of my life have been when haven't been kind of
[10:50.360 --> 10:54.200] intentional. You know, I haven't gone out to try and change the
[10:54.200 --> 10:57.960] belief. It's when the belief has changed to get the difference.
[10:58.520 --> 10:59.000] I do.
[11:02.360 --> 11:08.520] So do any particular belief busting moments come to life any
[11:08.520 --> 11:10.600] particular healing moments?
[11:13.800 --> 11:17.320] Well, for me, and I think we've talked about this before too,
[11:18.120 --> 11:23.400] my consciousness, where I had radical acceptance, resilience
[11:23.400 --> 11:27.640] and awareness all happened at the same time. And it was about
[11:27.640 --> 11:32.440] over seven years ago now, where I had to come into a lot of
[11:32.440 --> 11:38.040] different realizations. Almost on top of each other, it was
[11:38.040 --> 11:42.840] almost overwhelming. But I am so much better off for having
[11:42.840 --> 11:47.640] done so and it took a catalyst, maybe several catalysts to get
[11:47.640 --> 11:50.920] me there. But they did happen and I did listen.
[11:51.720 --> 11:52.040] Yeah.
[11:52.600 --> 11:56.200] In order to make that change, I was willing to be committed to
[11:56.200 --> 12:01.160] make the changes necessary. So I could break my own addicted way
[12:01.160 --> 12:01.720] of thinking.
[12:02.520 --> 12:05.880] Yeah. So this is breaking down to breakthrough, isn't it?
[12:07.000 --> 12:10.600] Yeah, exactly. In fact, I think I've heard that phrase
[12:10.600 --> 12:15.480] recently, maybe Michelle Madrid somewhere, it was, it really
[12:15.480 --> 12:16.520] struck a note with me.
[12:17.080 --> 12:22.920] We, it's, it's like the belief is changed despite of us.
[12:25.160 --> 12:30.680] It's like, it comes to us, it's, it's, we don't make the bus,
[12:30.680 --> 12:33.880] we don't make the insight happen. We have to be willing,
[12:33.880 --> 12:38.040] we have to hang out at the bus stop for the bus stop for the
[12:38.040 --> 12:41.960] bus to arrive. We can't determine when the bus is going
[12:41.960 --> 12:45.640] to go right. But unless we hang out at the bus stop, it
[12:45.640 --> 12:47.960] ain't, we ain't gonna ever get on it.
[12:47.960 --> 12:51.160] Exactly. I mean, you can have, unless you have that core
[12:51.160 --> 12:54.040] willingness, and if you have that, then yes, things can
[12:54.040 --> 12:57.800] come peripherally. They come for me all the time now, where if
[12:57.800 --> 13:02.680] I get still and quiet, then I've, if I go too fast, then
[13:02.680 --> 13:04.680] I'm sort of, you know, backsliding a little bit.
[13:04.680 --> 13:04.920] Yeah.
[13:05.960 --> 13:08.600] But if I slow down that I do see these things come at me
[13:08.600 --> 13:12.200] perfectly, and I didn't will them into being, it's just I
[13:12.200 --> 13:16.920] was willing to see it. And actively maybe like, okay, what
[13:16.920 --> 13:19.960] am I not seeing right now? Can I take a look around?
[13:19.960 --> 13:20.200] Yeah.
[13:21.000 --> 13:24.040] Do that continuously on a daily basis.
[13:24.040 --> 13:27.000] So I don't know whether I've asked you this question,
[13:27.000 --> 13:28.920] because I've asked other people that question, and I've
[13:28.920 --> 13:30.600] asked myself the question, I don't know whether I've got
[13:30.600 --> 13:36.120] an answer or not. What we're talking about here is
[13:36.120 --> 13:41.240] beliefs. We don't hear much about beliefs in the
[13:41.240 --> 13:46.120] adoptee world. So why do you think that might be?
[13:49.560 --> 13:52.920] Well, I'm not certain I would agree with that.
[13:52.920 --> 13:53.640] Oh, okay.
[13:55.800 --> 14:00.600] I mean, because my core belief is that I was not enough, not
[14:00.600 --> 14:05.240] good enough. And so until I went back in and had a chat
[14:05.240 --> 14:07.880] with myself of, is that a true story?
[14:08.760 --> 14:13.080] I had to deal with that belief, implicit belief, right?
[14:13.080 --> 14:16.040] It was an unconscious belief, but it was still in my body.
[14:17.240 --> 14:19.560] So I think you have to name it before you can change it.
[14:21.480 --> 14:24.280] So I deal with beliefs a lot. I don't know.
[14:24.280 --> 14:28.840] Yeah, you think so you think we you think that we see a
[14:28.840 --> 14:31.240] lot of talk about beliefs in adoptee circles.
[14:34.360 --> 14:37.720] Yeah, I think I hear more beliefs than I hear anything
[14:37.800 --> 14:42.920] about growth, because okay, maybe there's a stuckness of
[14:42.920 --> 14:46.200] here's my belief. I'm going to stay with that.
[14:47.080 --> 14:49.880] And I'm gonna stop you like hard stop right there at the
[14:49.880 --> 14:53.960] belief instead of okay, then what? Where do we take that?
[14:53.960 --> 14:55.720] Who do you want to where do you want to go?
[14:55.720 --> 14:58.840] Who do you want to become? And we all have choice to do
[14:58.840 --> 15:03.320] that until I gave my own self permission to know that I
[15:03.320 --> 15:06.920] could change a belief and question the validity of the
[15:06.920 --> 15:10.040] belief in the first place, then I was always going to be
[15:10.040 --> 15:12.280] stuck way back there and just I have this belief.
[15:13.480 --> 15:14.200] So is
[15:15.960 --> 15:19.720] are we are we stuck in the belief that we're stuck?
[15:19.720 --> 15:22.280] Is that is that I know I was
[15:24.040 --> 15:27.080] and I would guess that others are other adoptees are
[15:29.080 --> 15:30.920] Yeah, I was
[15:30.920 --> 15:37.480] I was. I wasn't stuck with that belief.
[15:39.800 --> 15:44.760] I don't know if I was with the belief. Well, I thought I was
[15:44.760 --> 15:48.120] stuck with the primal wound. When I read I didn't I didn't
[15:48.120 --> 15:52.120] believe I was stuck until I read the primal wound. So the
[15:52.120 --> 15:58.440] primal wound at first it was kind of a there was a relief
[15:58.440 --> 16:03.000] in a diagnosis. Yes, it was. It has a name. Yeah, it has a
[16:03.000 --> 16:07.880] name. Right. It has a name. And then it became. But then
[16:09.080 --> 16:13.000] that that relief was kind of short lived. Because then I
[16:13.000 --> 16:17.240] believed I was stuck with it. Because I, I couldn't be
[16:18.920 --> 16:25.480] unadopted. I couldn't go back and change. Right. I couldn't
[16:25.480 --> 16:30.760] change the way I couldn't I couldn't change the the the
[16:31.640 --> 16:34.600] the primal wound. It was it was something I was going to have
[16:34.600 --> 16:39.640] to live with something I was stuck with was kind of where I
[16:39.640 --> 16:44.360] was at for a while. Yeah, until I think somebody told me.
[16:46.120 --> 16:50.280] No, you don't don't have to be you don't have to be stuck.
[16:50.280 --> 16:59.160] You can make the choice for yourself. And not that we won't
[16:59.160 --> 17:02.760] always be affected by it in some way because it did happen.
[17:03.320 --> 17:07.160] And it really is a real scientific neurological thing
[17:07.160 --> 17:11.480] of being severed from your mother. But I like to say that
[17:11.480 --> 17:16.680] I changed it into it's a wound, but it is become my superpower
[17:16.680 --> 17:19.240] because it's helped me get to know myself so much better.
[17:19.880 --> 17:28.040] And it's evolving. Yeah, it doesn't have to remain a
[17:28.040 --> 17:31.560] negative, limiting, suffocating thing.
[17:33.720 --> 17:35.960] Yeah. Yeah.
[17:38.840 --> 17:42.840] I was talking to a fellow adoptee before just before we spoke.
[17:43.640 --> 17:50.760] And he was saying very, very challenging. I think it was a
[17:50.760 --> 17:53.240] challenge. It challenged me. I mean, it challenged some of
[17:53.240 --> 17:55.400] the listeners. Maybe not all of them. Maybe not you.
[17:57.080 --> 18:02.520] That we're lucky we've got we've got a place to start.
[18:03.880 --> 18:07.000] We've got a place. We've got a place to start. We've got a
[18:07.000 --> 18:18.680] really obvious pinpoint. And like most people don't know
[18:18.680 --> 18:25.400] because he was talking about other people he'd met on from
[18:25.400 --> 18:28.040] all different, you know, not a lot of non adoptees as well.
[18:28.040 --> 18:31.400] And he was saying, well, they don't know where to them got a
[18:31.400 --> 18:37.560] place to start exploration from they're trying to, whereas we
[18:37.560 --> 18:41.240] have. And I said, have you got any idea how ironic that is?
[18:42.280 --> 18:46.600] Because most of us don't spot it. You know, I was talking to
[18:46.600 --> 18:50.600] before I spoke to him, I was talking to another, another
[18:50.600 --> 18:55.480] fellow adoptees coming on the podcast in March. And she was
[18:55.480 --> 19:03.640] saying she did 40 years of therapy before she seriously or
[19:03.640 --> 19:09.080] anybody before a therapist seriously considered adoption as
[19:09.080 --> 19:13.960] the root of the point. That's just 40 years.
[19:16.440 --> 19:20.680] But like we're judging. Okay, I think we're judging
[19:21.640 --> 19:31.560] 90. We're judging 20 20th century therapists on 21st century
[19:32.360 --> 19:37.080] knowledge. This stuff. I mean, we could say, well, Nancy
[19:37.080 --> 19:43.560] Barry didn't, she published the book, 1993. So we are, we are
[19:44.440 --> 19:52.440] judging the therapists of the 80s with the knowledge that wasn't
[19:52.440 --> 19:55.320] there till the 90s. But those therapists should have been
[19:55.320 --> 19:58.200] died into it. And if they were, that stuff was coming up.
[19:59.880 --> 20:03.320] Well, it was being talked about and it had its birth at
[20:03.320 --> 20:07.240] that time. But I think these ideas, as you said, even for
[20:07.240 --> 20:11.160] adoptees, we're often reluctant to listen to it, believe it,
[20:11.880 --> 20:15.960] and research it. But think of how much better off because of
[20:15.960 --> 20:20.040] the work that our pioneers have done what we're doing, and the
[20:20.040 --> 20:23.400] ones of the future are going to have to have this knowledge.
[20:23.400 --> 20:25.960] And maybe we'll have so many more adoptee competent
[20:25.960 --> 20:29.160] therapists, that hopefully that's what our work is all
[20:29.160 --> 20:33.160] about is trying to help this get more awareness and have this
[20:33.160 --> 20:37.080] radical acceptance of, of what this means of what how it can
[20:37.080 --> 20:44.280] have its hands on a life that is kind of thwarted really, and
[20:44.280 --> 20:47.800] not able to thrive in the way it should. Yeah, because people
[20:47.800 --> 20:52.760] don't know how to how to treat and raise and be kind to an
[20:52.760 --> 21:00.760] adoptee. Yeah. So what we talked a lot of you've talked a
[21:00.760 --> 21:04.360] lot about willingness and openness, you've mentioned the
[21:04.360 --> 21:09.000] opposite of that, like a reluctance. When we were close,
[21:09.000 --> 21:13.320] we talked about our mindset. What, what do you think hinders
[21:13.320 --> 21:18.360] our healing, other than that stuff? Other than that stuff?
[21:19.720 --> 21:21.640] Well, you know, inability to forgive.
[21:27.000 --> 21:31.800] Not practicing and nurturing our innate resilience within
[21:31.800 --> 21:35.960] ourselves. I think you can cultivate that. Not that I don't
[21:35.960 --> 21:38.120] think everyone is just automatically born with
[21:38.120 --> 21:42.280] resilience. Some of us maybe, but I think it's something you
[21:42.280 --> 21:50.760] have to nurture. So it can grow. We have that then you're
[21:50.760 --> 21:55.960] rigid. Can we go back to the forgiveness thing because we
[21:55.960 --> 21:59.240] don't want how much forgiveness do you think we see
[21:59.240 --> 22:05.240] in adoptee circles? You know, forgiveness is such a sensitive
[22:05.240 --> 22:09.320] word. And it's so complex because it can mean a lot of different
[22:09.320 --> 22:12.760] things. It's not really about, well, I forgive you for the
[22:12.760 --> 22:18.520] awful thing you did to me. It's more of us, the letting go
[22:18.520 --> 22:23.880] process is so freaking hard for people. Because for me, I'll
[22:23.880 --> 22:27.960] forgive, maybe myself or a situation. And I find myself
[22:28.040 --> 22:31.560] picking it up five minutes later. And I'm like, no, no, I
[22:31.560 --> 22:36.280] set that down. I let that go. And the more I don't do that,
[22:36.280 --> 22:39.480] the more stuck I get. And then the more stuck I get, the less
[22:39.480 --> 22:44.280] growth I have. So the more I can open up, be spacious, let
[22:44.280 --> 22:49.800] go, and try to attach more with the healthy things that
[22:49.800 --> 22:54.120] make me help me thrive, and have the knowingness that that's
[22:54.200 --> 22:58.600] what that is, that letting go process, the better off I am.
[22:59.400 --> 23:03.400] So you're talking mainly about forgiving ourselves like grace
[23:03.400 --> 23:04.280] for ourselves. Yeah.
[23:04.920 --> 23:08.120] Not not entirely, but just you can just saying across the
[23:08.120 --> 23:12.120] board of the things we hold in our heart, and in our bodies,
[23:12.920 --> 23:17.320] that we need to learn how to let go. Especially if it
[23:17.320 --> 23:19.960] doesn't serve you anymore, because some people will keep
[23:19.960 --> 23:23.080] doing something until they realize, oh, this is killing
[23:23.080 --> 23:28.680] me. Maybe I should let it go. Yeah. But that's back to the
[23:28.680 --> 23:32.040] breaking down. Back to the break break through. You have to
[23:32.040 --> 23:35.640] have this epiphany of, oh, I'm literally trying to kill
[23:35.640 --> 23:41.880] myself. Yeah. So yeah, we that's the the epiphanies are
[23:41.880 --> 23:47.560] the other belief shifts when when the beliefs are shifted,
[23:47.560 --> 23:49.000] right? Yeah.
[23:49.000 --> 23:55.720] The way they have a choice of to listen to that, or resist
[23:55.720 --> 23:59.400] it and say, that's bogus. I'm still going to go this
[23:59.400 --> 24:03.320] direction. I'm going to ignore that fork in the roadway
[24:03.320 --> 24:05.560] where I think I have a choice. I'm just going to do it the
[24:05.560 --> 24:06.920] way we always did it. Yeah.
[24:07.640 --> 24:08.760] It could be generational.
[24:09.880 --> 24:10.200] Yeah.
[24:11.000 --> 24:13.640] Grandpa did it. You're on and on.
[24:14.360 --> 24:17.800] Can you give us an example from your own stuff on that?
[24:19.720 --> 24:23.400] It just made me think of a funny story that my parents
[24:23.400 --> 24:26.680] would always get very irritated with the new things that
[24:26.680 --> 24:30.360] come up of, I don't know, you have to wear your seatbelts
[24:30.360 --> 24:34.760] now, or you shouldn't eat too much canned food, or you
[24:34.760 --> 24:38.760] shouldn't smoke in the car with a child or any person,
[24:38.760 --> 24:42.040] right, with the windows rolled up. And their whole attitude
[24:42.040 --> 24:45.160] was, well, we went through it. We didn't die. Look how
[24:45.240 --> 24:49.480] great we are. And it was just like hung in the air of,
[24:49.480 --> 24:53.960] yeah, look how great you guys are. But that was the
[24:53.960 --> 24:57.720] clinging to the way my parents did it, this way their
[24:57.720 --> 24:59.960] parents did it. We're just going to continue to do it
[24:59.960 --> 25:03.800] that way. Instead of stop, full stop, full stop, we're
[25:03.800 --> 25:06.280] going to do stuff differently now. We're going to think
[25:06.280 --> 25:06.760] differently.
[25:11.240 --> 25:14.440] Yeah. It's a resistance to change, isn't it?
[25:15.640 --> 25:19.320] Oh, yeah, we're so resistant. But it feels so good
[25:19.320 --> 25:22.920] when you actually do change. And you reap the benefits.
[25:23.640 --> 25:26.600] I don't know why we don't that momentum doesn't grow on
[25:26.600 --> 25:29.480] us of, well, remember last time, I didn't want to
[25:29.480 --> 25:33.160] change, but I did. And now look how much better off I
[25:33.160 --> 25:37.640] am. Yeah, applied knowledge. I'm not sure why in
[25:37.640 --> 25:40.120] myself, I don't know why it takes me so much
[25:40.120 --> 25:42.920] sometimes to just get off the dime and do it.
[25:43.880 --> 25:53.560] Yeah. What about forgiveness to adoptive parents that
[25:53.560 --> 25:55.720] have wronged us?
[25:58.840 --> 26:02.040] Well, I think you have to ask yourself, first of all,
[26:02.040 --> 26:04.360] what good is it doing at this point? Are you trying
[26:04.360 --> 26:07.880] to change something? Or are you just hanging on to
[26:07.880 --> 26:10.280] that? And who is it really hurting? Probably just,
[26:10.280 --> 26:13.080] you know, preventing your own self from growing.
[26:14.120 --> 26:17.320] I think there's an acceptance and an acknowledgement
[26:17.320 --> 26:21.560] of being ill treated. And then there's, okay, I've
[26:21.560 --> 26:25.480] identified that. But I'm also going to let go from
[26:25.480 --> 26:27.480] that because I don't want that to rule my life.
[26:28.520 --> 26:28.840] Yeah.
[26:29.480 --> 26:31.480] So that's where I had the change to go a
[26:31.480 --> 26:32.680] different direction.
[26:32.680 --> 26:36.040] Yeah. I think that's the thing that I
[26:36.040 --> 26:44.600] worry about myself or that I see a lot of. Like
[26:44.600 --> 26:48.840] there's, there's, there's, it's only somebody
[26:48.840 --> 26:57.000] once said resentment is like drinking poison and
[26:57.000 --> 26:58.840] expecting the other person to die.
[26:59.560 --> 27:02.680] Yes. And you're poisoning yourself.
[27:02.680 --> 27:05.560] We're poisoning the, that we're poisoning
[27:05.560 --> 27:11.000] ourselves by hanging on to our anger.
[27:12.040 --> 27:14.840] Yes. But a truth to that.
[27:17.560 --> 27:20.680] Whenever we get anywhere near this, this subject,
[27:20.680 --> 27:23.720] I think about that. We talked about this before
[27:23.720 --> 27:25.880] that Wayne, have you heard about a guy called
[27:25.880 --> 27:27.480] Wayne Dyer? Don't cross him.
[27:27.480 --> 27:28.520] Oh, I know who he is.
[27:28.520 --> 27:31.160] Yeah. Yeah. Did you hear the story about him
[27:31.240 --> 27:36.760] going to his, so he, so he, his father, he wasn't
[27:36.760 --> 27:40.120] adopted, but his, his father, I think he was the
[27:40.120 --> 27:42.200] eldest of six kids or something like that.
[27:42.200 --> 27:45.560] And the father abandoned them. And this was in
[27:45.560 --> 27:48.600] the fifties or I don't know, a long time ago.
[27:49.880 --> 27:55.560] And Wayne Dyer was very angry about this and
[27:55.560 --> 27:59.400] held onto that, held onto that anger until he,
[27:59.400 --> 28:01.400] and he went to the grave. He went to his
[28:01.400 --> 28:05.480] father's grave many years after the father had
[28:05.480 --> 28:08.280] left the family home and left the mum to sort
[28:08.280 --> 28:11.560] of raise these kids on her own. And he went to
[28:11.560 --> 28:14.920] the grave to pee on the grave. And then he
[28:14.920 --> 28:18.280] ranted at his, at his father's, at his dad,
[28:18.280 --> 28:23.080] at his father's grave site for two hours
[28:23.080 --> 28:27.800] until he had a spontaneous forgiveness,
[28:28.520 --> 28:31.800] spontaneous forgiveness. It came to him. He's
[28:31.800 --> 28:33.640] kind of like, there was, I guess after
[28:33.640 --> 28:36.920] shouting at his dad, there was nowhere else
[28:36.920 --> 28:41.080] for him to go. And then something else, he had
[28:41.080 --> 28:45.880] that epiphany moment where, where he forgave
[28:46.520 --> 28:48.840] his dad, something, something within him.
[28:48.840 --> 28:51.400] And he, he says that it, so this guy was a,
[28:52.360 --> 28:55.240] it was an early self-help guru, wasn't he?
[28:55.880 --> 28:58.680] He was a big deal. He was a big deal in
[28:58.680 --> 29:01.480] there, not in adoptee circles, but in
[29:01.480 --> 29:05.320] self-help circles generally. And he says he
[29:05.320 --> 29:11.160] credits that, letting go of that anger
[29:11.160 --> 29:15.720] towards his father as a, as a pivotal
[29:15.720 --> 29:20.120] moment. Yeah. In, in his life when he
[29:20.920 --> 29:25.160] took the angry jumper out of his closet, I
[29:25.160 --> 29:28.520] guess. Yeah. It's like he just broke
[29:28.520 --> 29:31.000] through the dam and allowed the water to
[29:31.000 --> 29:34.360] flow freely. He was not going to be free
[29:34.360 --> 29:37.480] until he came to that moment of
[29:37.480 --> 29:40.600] acceptance. Yeah. But that acceptance came
[29:40.600 --> 29:45.240] to him. And was he willing to do that? I
[29:45.240 --> 29:49.160] guess he, he opened himself up. He, he
[29:50.040 --> 29:51.960] yeah, he did. He followed, he followed the
[29:51.960 --> 29:55.480] path. So I can think of some stuff with
[29:55.480 --> 29:58.200] me with, with birth family.
[30:00.600 --> 30:03.240] That, that, you know, staying with the
[30:03.240 --> 30:06.840] path, following the path, rather than,
[30:06.840 --> 30:11.080] so when I went, you know, after I paused
[30:11.080 --> 30:13.160] my search, I
[30:13.160 --> 30:19.480] restarted my search pro, process, and that
[30:19.480 --> 30:25.240] led to big realizations and realizations
[30:25.240 --> 30:28.040] coming to me. And it wasn't like I
[30:28.040 --> 30:32.680] willed them into existence. But I carried
[30:32.680 --> 30:35.320] along the journey. If I, if I paused and
[30:35.320 --> 30:38.120] stopped, then I wouldn't, then the
[30:38.120 --> 30:40.360] realizations wouldn't have come to me.
[30:40.360 --> 30:43.400] Yeah, but you would have stayed stuck.
[30:43.400 --> 30:47.160] You have accepted to be on the path. And
[30:47.160 --> 30:49.640] since you've made that acceptance to do
[30:49.640 --> 30:53.480] that, things are just going to come, come
[30:53.480 --> 30:55.480] by you. And you have a choice of am I
[30:55.480 --> 30:57.000] going to get that? Am I going to think
[30:57.000 --> 31:00.120] about that meditate on it?
[31:00.120 --> 31:01.720] Yeah, I'm just, I'm just thinking there
[31:01.720 --> 31:04.840] was, there's been some stuckness where
[31:04.840 --> 31:07.320] I've stayed stuck for,
[31:07.320 --> 31:11.080] yeah, a couple of years, six months,
[31:11.080 --> 31:15.000] eight months. And then we're back to grace,
[31:15.000 --> 31:17.880] aren't we?
[31:17.880 --> 31:20.440] Thank goodness.
[31:21.560 --> 31:23.480] And the grace that we give ourselves,
[31:23.480 --> 31:25.400] like earlier in the conversation where
[31:25.400 --> 31:28.360] you said you about the shirt that you
[31:28.360 --> 31:29.880] repurchased.
[31:29.880 --> 31:33.320] Yeah. And instead of berating yourself,
[31:33.320 --> 31:35.800] you treated yourself with loving kindness.
[31:35.800 --> 31:40.360] Yeah, I could, I could laugh at myself.
[31:40.360 --> 31:44.040] Like it's that ironic. And I shared,
[31:44.040 --> 31:47.080] I shared. We like that shirt. Yeah.
[31:47.080 --> 31:51.000] And I shared it, right? There were
[31:51.000 --> 31:52.600] people, there was some, there was some
[31:52.600 --> 31:54.840] criticism came
[31:54.840 --> 31:57.560] on the back of that. I think it's
[31:57.560 --> 31:59.480] sometimes easier to see this stuff
[31:59.480 --> 32:02.600] with the, like the trivial stuff.
[32:02.600 --> 32:04.440] Do you see what I mean? It's easy for me
[32:05.400 --> 32:07.800] to talk about
[32:07.800 --> 32:09.960] a shirt that I gave to a thrift shop and
[32:09.960 --> 32:11.000] then bought back.
[32:11.000 --> 32:15.240] It's easier to talk about this stuff with.
[32:15.960 --> 32:18.440] Well, and the meanings can be translated
[32:18.440 --> 32:21.480] in a number of different ways.
[32:21.480 --> 32:24.280] And I think that's why it is easier to
[32:24.280 --> 32:25.080] talk about
[32:25.080 --> 32:27.800] a two-full closet in order to make
[32:27.800 --> 32:28.600] space for
[32:28.600 --> 32:30.920] new clothes. Everyone can understand that,
[32:30.920 --> 32:33.080] right? You can't put more clothes in
[32:33.080 --> 32:35.400] unless you take some out. And so then
[32:35.400 --> 32:36.120] you, it
[32:36.120 --> 32:39.640] transcends into other realizations.
[32:39.640 --> 32:41.880] Yeah.
[32:42.520 --> 32:45.720] And the other thing that you talk
[32:45.720 --> 32:47.720] about
[32:47.720 --> 32:49.960] with the closet being two-full,
[32:49.960 --> 32:54.200] it's like when our minds are going
[32:54.200 --> 32:58.440] ten to the dozen, when the thoughts
[32:58.440 --> 33:01.320] are never ending, we don't have
[33:01.320 --> 33:04.280] space for new ones, which is why
[33:04.280 --> 33:06.680] I think
[33:07.080 --> 33:09.480] we get realizations in nature, like when
[33:09.480 --> 33:11.080] we're away
[33:11.080 --> 33:15.000] from our phones and
[33:15.000 --> 33:18.040] yeah stuff like that.
[33:18.040 --> 33:19.960] The interesting thing happened on my
[33:19.960 --> 33:21.640] recent trip
[33:21.640 --> 33:24.040] and that we, on the last day of the
[33:24.040 --> 33:25.000] vacation,
[33:25.000 --> 33:27.320] the rest of it, we had a great time. We
[33:27.320 --> 33:28.200] were busy,
[33:28.200 --> 33:30.440] but the last day we had to check out of
[33:30.440 --> 33:31.720] the hotel at 11,
[33:31.720 --> 33:33.880] our flight wasn't until 10 o'clock that
[33:33.880 --> 33:34.680] night.
[33:34.680 --> 33:36.120] So my daughter and I were kind of
[33:36.120 --> 33:37.080] freaking out of,
[33:37.080 --> 33:38.200] what are we going to do? We're going to
[33:38.200 --> 33:39.320] be homeless.
[33:39.320 --> 33:42.200] So we had all these fears consuming
[33:42.200 --> 33:45.000] our brains and our minds. And then when
[33:45.000 --> 33:45.880] we finally just
[33:45.880 --> 33:48.280] slowed down and found this lovely spot
[33:48.280 --> 33:49.240] where we had
[33:49.240 --> 33:51.720] covering, where the sun didn't beat
[33:51.720 --> 33:53.080] down on us all day,
[33:53.080 --> 33:54.680] we had one of the best days of the
[33:54.680 --> 33:55.800] whole trip
[33:55.800 --> 33:57.480] because we were slowing down. We were
[33:57.480 --> 33:57.960] seeing
[33:57.960 --> 34:00.280] sea turtles and whales and
[34:00.280 --> 34:02.040] you know their spouts going up in the
[34:02.040 --> 34:04.200] ocean.
[34:04.200 --> 34:07.320] And I thought, how ironic that it took
[34:07.320 --> 34:09.640] the hotel saying, you have to be out of
[34:09.640 --> 34:11.080] your room, you can't have a late
[34:11.080 --> 34:12.200] checkout.
[34:12.200 --> 34:15.800] It made us slow down to that point of
[34:15.800 --> 34:17.320] being, you know contemplation can
[34:17.320 --> 34:19.000] happen at that point.
[34:19.000 --> 34:22.200] And so things were filling my brain
[34:22.200 --> 34:24.440] that I didn't have space for before
[34:24.440 --> 34:25.640] maybe.
[34:25.640 --> 34:27.000] I just thought that was kind of a,
[34:27.000 --> 34:29.080] yeah yeah it's a need to
[34:29.080 --> 34:31.480] analogy. I need to know.
[34:31.480 --> 34:33.800] So yeah, the analogies and the stories
[34:33.800 --> 34:34.360] are big
[34:34.360 --> 34:37.480] because otherwise we haven't got the
[34:37.480 --> 34:39.240] words for the healing stuff, right? We
[34:39.240 --> 34:40.920] can't put words
[34:40.920 --> 34:44.920] to it. So it's almost like the metaphors.
[34:44.920 --> 34:47.480] The metaphors, like the invisible man is
[34:47.480 --> 34:48.280] a metaphor.
[34:48.280 --> 34:50.600] It's a metaphor for metaphors, right?
[34:50.600 --> 34:53.160] Yeah, we can't see the
[34:53.160 --> 34:55.080] invisible man till we put
[34:55.080 --> 34:57.800] the, it's closed on and we can't, we
[34:57.880 --> 34:58.680] can't see
[34:58.680 --> 35:01.320] our feelings until we put metaphors to
[35:01.320 --> 35:03.480] them.
[35:04.520 --> 35:07.880] Letting go of old stuff.
[35:08.360 --> 35:10.840] Letting go of old stuff. Seeing when we've
[35:10.840 --> 35:14.200] got too much on our mind.
[35:14.360 --> 35:16.280] Well if there's, if your minds are, if
[35:16.280 --> 35:18.680] your mind is too crowded
[35:18.680 --> 35:20.680] there's no space for a new thought.
[35:20.680 --> 35:23.000] There's no chance for less chance of
[35:23.000 --> 35:24.440] you having an epiphany.
[35:24.440 --> 35:24.760] Yeah.
[35:24.760 --> 35:26.280] Because you're a baseball player.
[35:26.280 --> 35:27.880] Yeah, yeah.
[35:27.880 --> 35:30.200] You're, you've crowded it all out.
[35:30.200 --> 35:33.160] You crowded it all out. So for you as a
[35:33.160 --> 35:34.840] writer,
[35:34.840 --> 35:38.840] to what extent does that process help
[35:38.840 --> 35:43.080] you get it all out and heal?
[35:44.840 --> 35:47.320] I think it's huge in the way I
[35:47.320 --> 35:50.280] creatively try to think of my story
[35:50.280 --> 35:50.600] of,
[35:50.600 --> 35:53.000] what do I want to say? Where do I want
[35:53.000 --> 35:54.840] to go with this?
[35:54.840 --> 35:58.280] And I leave myself, my brain kind of,
[35:58.280 --> 36:00.680] I trust is what I do. I trust my brain
[36:00.680 --> 36:01.560] and my body.
[36:01.560 --> 36:04.600] It's going to tell me if I ask it, it
[36:04.600 --> 36:06.200] responds.
[36:06.200 --> 36:07.880] What do you want to say? And then I'm
[36:07.880 --> 36:09.880] quiet and I leave space for it to
[36:09.880 --> 36:10.840] come to me.
[36:10.840 --> 36:12.440] And that's why I do like to take these
[36:12.440 --> 36:14.760] vacations because
[36:14.760 --> 36:16.840] often I do have these thoughts that
[36:16.840 --> 36:18.120] come in and
[36:18.120 --> 36:20.520] you know maybe they work and sometimes
[36:20.600 --> 36:23.000] they don't, but at least I'm exploring.
[36:23.000 --> 36:25.240] I'm researching and I'm being this, I'm
[36:25.240 --> 36:26.360] absorbing
[36:26.360 --> 36:28.840] my life because I'm not writing a book
[36:28.840 --> 36:30.360] just to write the book and get finished
[36:30.360 --> 36:31.640] and get it published.
[36:31.640 --> 36:34.520] I'm healing as I write these books.
[36:34.520 --> 36:38.520] They're quite intimate for me.
[36:39.080 --> 36:40.840] And so I think that's the way I write
[36:40.840 --> 36:42.600] too, is I have to have room in my head
[36:42.600 --> 36:44.440] and heart space
[36:44.440 --> 36:47.560] for me to receive and acknowledge and
[36:47.560 --> 36:49.000] understand what these things are and
[36:49.000 --> 36:50.280] explore them.
[36:50.280 --> 36:53.720] Yeah. And do you have help along the way
[36:53.720 --> 36:56.120] along that writing process?
[36:56.120 --> 36:58.040] Do you write with fellow adoptees? You
[36:58.040 --> 37:00.040] have a coach?
[37:00.040 --> 37:02.360] What does your process look like?
[37:02.360 --> 37:04.600] Yes and no. I do have a creative writing
[37:04.600 --> 37:05.640] coach.
[37:05.640 --> 37:07.640] Can I drop her name? Of course, yeah.
[37:07.640 --> 37:08.840] And Hefron.
[37:08.840 --> 37:11.800] Sorry, I'll write you. And Hefron. She
[37:11.800 --> 37:14.120] thinks outside of the box.
[37:14.120 --> 37:16.040] She doesn't, we don't go line by line
[37:16.040 --> 37:17.880] or anything like that. We just chat
[37:17.880 --> 37:21.640] when I talk with her. And sometimes I
[37:21.640 --> 37:24.040] get so rigid in my thinking
[37:24.040 --> 37:26.680] that something has to just be one way.
[37:26.680 --> 37:29.320] And she's notorious for saying, well, now,
[37:29.320 --> 37:30.920] Linda, what if you thought of it this
[37:30.920 --> 37:31.960] way?
[37:31.960 --> 37:34.840] And I'm just like, you know, she gives
[37:34.840 --> 37:36.680] me permission to think
[37:36.680 --> 37:38.280] outside the box. So that's really
[37:38.280 --> 37:40.040] helpful.
[37:40.040 --> 37:42.600] And then I'm part of an adoptee voices
[37:42.600 --> 37:43.480] group with Sarah
[37:43.480 --> 37:46.760] Easterly. It's called On the Page. And
[37:46.840 --> 37:49.560] it's for published authors where we get
[37:49.560 --> 37:51.480] together and just talk about
[37:51.480 --> 37:54.120] how are you marketing this? Have you done
[37:54.120 --> 37:55.880] Audible for your book?
[37:55.880 --> 37:57.960] Who's a good editor? And so is that
[37:57.960 --> 38:00.360] sharing of information?
[38:00.360 --> 38:03.000] I'm often just a sponge, Simon. I'm just
[38:03.000 --> 38:05.320] I have all these notepads and sticky
[38:05.320 --> 38:06.280] notes and
[38:06.280 --> 38:08.440] I'm forever just writing things down of,
[38:08.440 --> 38:11.400] well, research that research this. I
[38:11.400 --> 38:13.720] take a lot, I find a lot of joy
[38:13.720 --> 38:16.280] in that expansion.
[38:16.280 --> 38:18.280] So it's a fun process.
[38:18.280 --> 38:20.440] So what is it that's expanding? What is
[38:20.440 --> 38:22.440] it that's growing?
[38:22.440 --> 38:24.840] My just my heart and my mind and my
[38:24.840 --> 38:25.640] body,
[38:25.640 --> 38:29.560] everything is just on a thriving mode,
[38:29.560 --> 38:32.440] moving forward. And that takes
[38:32.440 --> 38:35.000] acceptance, radical acceptance,
[38:35.000 --> 38:37.800] radical resilience, and
[38:37.800 --> 38:40.360] just the willingness that I have
[38:40.360 --> 38:41.880] decided for myself. That's where I'm
[38:41.880 --> 38:44.200] headed.
[38:44.200 --> 38:46.120] And I was never allowed that before
[38:46.120 --> 38:49.000] earlier in life, but now I've I've had
[38:49.000 --> 38:51.160] permission to do so.
[38:51.160 --> 38:54.040] Yeah, so there's a freedom here.
[38:54.040 --> 38:56.680] Liberation.
[38:58.280 --> 38:59.640] Yeah.
[38:59.640 --> 39:03.480] And that makes me.
[39:03.480 --> 39:06.840] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[39:06.840 --> 39:09.640] So what's the new book about?
[39:09.640 --> 39:12.120] Well, the title is The Way Things
[39:12.120 --> 39:13.240] Grow.
[39:13.240 --> 39:15.160] So it's very appropriate to what we've
[39:15.160 --> 39:18.920] been talking about the whole hour.
[39:18.920 --> 39:20.920] Because there are certain elements of
[39:20.920 --> 39:22.440] how things are going to grow and
[39:22.440 --> 39:24.920] there's certain things that will
[39:24.920 --> 39:28.280] stamp out, oppress, collapse,
[39:28.280 --> 39:32.440] distinguish growth. And I
[39:32.440 --> 39:36.680] have, I've been analyzing this to
[39:36.680 --> 39:38.760] be able to see what that means for me
[39:38.760 --> 39:39.880] in my life.
[39:39.960 --> 39:42.120] So I'm going to revisit the gathering
[39:42.120 --> 39:44.600] place is what the book is about.
[39:44.600 --> 39:47.720] And I'll fill it with, you know,
[39:47.720 --> 39:50.920] backstory of flashbacks of how I
[39:50.920 --> 39:53.880] became what I was, how I've
[39:53.880 --> 39:56.040] evolved, and then how I meet my
[39:56.040 --> 39:57.960] parts at the gathering place to find
[39:57.960 --> 40:00.600] healing, because I'm committed to that.
[40:00.600 --> 40:02.840] And the gathering place is a magical,
[40:02.840 --> 40:06.520] mythical place that's a portal
[40:06.520 --> 40:09.800] to visualize and make manifest those
[40:09.800 --> 40:12.360] things to happen and talk to your
[40:12.360 --> 40:15.080] your parts. We all have parts.
[40:15.080 --> 40:18.760] Yeah, you know, protective parts.
[40:18.760 --> 40:20.840] Our true self is actually not a part.
[40:20.840 --> 40:22.520] It's just the core of who we are,
[40:22.520 --> 40:25.000] but all of them and how we integrate
[40:25.000 --> 40:27.560] in order to move from here to where
[40:27.560 --> 40:29.080] we want to go next.
[40:30.360 --> 40:34.520] So you're growing the gathering place,
[40:34.520 --> 40:37.240] but you're going to write the first,
[40:37.240 --> 40:38.680] you're going to write the third book
[40:38.680 --> 40:40.520] before you revisit the gathering place.
[40:41.400 --> 40:43.400] No, it's in the format of the third
[40:43.400 --> 40:46.600] book of where I'm going to meet new
[40:46.600 --> 40:48.280] parts of myself.
[40:49.080 --> 40:50.520] And then I'm also probably going to
[40:50.520 --> 40:53.800] have some visitors from the first book.
[40:53.800 --> 40:55.560] We'll also I'll check in on them and
[40:55.560 --> 40:56.600] see how they're doing.
[40:56.600 --> 40:58.360] And they'll tell me how they're doing.
[40:59.240 --> 41:01.480] And I've had so many people that
[41:01.480 --> 41:03.640] responded to the gathering place say,
[41:04.440 --> 41:06.200] you know what I got from your book
[41:06.200 --> 41:08.200] is I can create my own gathering
[41:08.280 --> 41:10.440] place and create my own healing.
[41:11.320 --> 41:12.760] And I just thought that was the most
[41:12.760 --> 41:14.440] beautiful thing I've ever heard.
[41:15.400 --> 41:17.720] What a gift that was given to me
[41:17.720 --> 41:19.560] and given to other people that
[41:19.560 --> 41:21.320] they could have that for themselves.
[41:23.880 --> 41:26.280] So in case you don't know,
[41:27.400 --> 41:28.760] let me just check them right first,
[41:28.760 --> 41:30.440] actually, before I answer the question.
[41:30.440 --> 41:33.800] So is this the different parts?
[41:33.800 --> 41:37.080] Is that the internal family system
[41:37.080 --> 41:38.840] parts work therapy model?
[41:38.840 --> 41:40.360] Yeah, yes.
[41:41.560 --> 41:44.120] So people can check people can check
[41:44.120 --> 41:44.600] this out.
[41:44.600 --> 41:47.240] So it was founded by a guy called
[41:47.240 --> 41:48.040] Richard Schwartz.
[41:48.040 --> 41:49.640] He goes as Dick Schwartz.
[41:49.640 --> 41:52.200] And he was the kind of founder of
[41:52.200 --> 41:55.400] IFS in the internal family systems.
[41:56.040 --> 42:00.120] So can you explain what that is?
[42:00.120 --> 42:01.560] Because internal family systems
[42:02.280 --> 42:04.280] doesn't sound like it's about us,
[42:04.280 --> 42:04.600] does it?
[42:04.760 --> 42:08.200] Yeah, maybe not entirely.
[42:08.200 --> 42:10.040] In fact, I didn't know too much
[42:10.040 --> 42:12.360] about IFS when I wrote the
[42:12.360 --> 42:13.640] gathering place.
[42:13.640 --> 42:16.440] But since then, I've seen that
[42:16.440 --> 42:17.800] and I've talked to therapists
[42:17.800 --> 42:19.880] that are IFS certified.
[42:19.880 --> 42:22.920] And it's really it all unfolded
[42:22.920 --> 42:24.840] right from that thought of we
[42:24.840 --> 42:26.040] have these younger parts of
[42:26.040 --> 42:26.920] ourselves.
[42:26.920 --> 42:28.440] And if we talk from adoptee
[42:29.080 --> 42:31.400] adoptiness, we definitely have
[42:31.400 --> 42:33.080] younger parts that got damaged
[42:33.080 --> 42:34.440] way early on.
[42:34.520 --> 42:36.120] And not that we can change what
[42:36.120 --> 42:38.280] happened, but we now have the
[42:38.280 --> 42:40.120] ability to go through our mind's
[42:40.120 --> 42:42.200] eye and go back and sit with
[42:42.200 --> 42:44.600] that part and say, I'm here.
[42:44.600 --> 42:45.640] I'm listening to you.
[42:45.640 --> 42:46.440] How can I help?
[42:47.000 --> 42:48.840] Yeah, and I haven't abandoned
[42:48.840 --> 42:49.080] you.
[42:49.880 --> 42:51.880] And so those parts come up in
[42:51.880 --> 42:52.760] us all the time.
[42:53.720 --> 42:56.840] So the parts are what makes up
[42:57.560 --> 42:59.480] the internal family system.
[42:59.480 --> 43:01.000] The internal family system is
[43:01.080 --> 43:05.720] is looking at the internal family
[43:05.720 --> 43:07.720] within us, looking at the
[43:07.720 --> 43:09.480] different parts of us at our
[43:09.480 --> 43:11.000] different ages.
[43:11.560 --> 43:14.120] And then there's this what
[43:15.240 --> 43:16.200] Dick Schwartz calls the
[43:16.200 --> 43:18.040] uppercase S self,
[43:18.840 --> 43:21.080] S self, which is which is
[43:22.600 --> 43:23.960] so this is the one listeners
[43:23.960 --> 43:24.840] who you might have heard
[43:24.840 --> 43:26.040] this regular listeners.
[43:26.040 --> 43:27.160] I don't know if you heard this
[43:27.160 --> 43:28.280] we're talking about this
[43:28.280 --> 43:28.760] Linda.
[43:28.760 --> 43:30.360] I came up with a metaphor for
[43:30.360 --> 43:30.920] that, right?
[43:30.920 --> 43:32.360] So have you ever played
[43:32.360 --> 43:33.480] trivial pursuits?
[43:34.360 --> 43:34.840] Yes.
[43:34.840 --> 43:35.160] Yes.
[43:35.720 --> 43:38.920] So you trivial pursuits, each
[43:38.920 --> 43:41.800] player has the the cheese
[43:41.800 --> 43:43.560] holder that they move around
[43:43.560 --> 43:44.280] the board.
[43:44.280 --> 43:44.520] Yeah.
[43:45.640 --> 43:48.040] So the cheese holder,
[43:49.160 --> 43:51.640] that is our uppercase S self.
[43:52.680 --> 43:55.160] And the cheeses, the individual
[43:55.160 --> 43:57.240] cheeses, that's the individual
[43:57.240 --> 43:59.160] parts of ourself.
[43:59.160 --> 44:02.200] So that's 10-year-old Linda,
[44:03.480 --> 44:04.280] 15-year-old Linda,
[44:05.160 --> 44:06.600] 17-year-old Simon,
[44:06.600 --> 44:07.960] whatever that is, that's
[44:09.560 --> 44:11.160] the Simon that was rejected
[44:11.160 --> 44:12.840] from the rugby team.
[44:13.400 --> 44:16.840] And it triggered that abandonment.
[44:18.120 --> 44:19.640] I didn't make the team.
[44:19.640 --> 44:21.080] I've been in the team for four years.
[44:21.640 --> 44:24.680] I didn't make the team one year.
[44:24.680 --> 44:28.600] And despite it triggered some
[44:28.680 --> 44:31.080] abandonment stuff, 13, it triggered
[44:31.080 --> 44:31.800] not good enough.
[44:31.800 --> 44:34.280] I turned away because obviously
[44:34.280 --> 44:36.760] when you're a 13-year-old boy,
[44:36.760 --> 44:39.080] you don't cry in front of you,
[44:40.440 --> 44:41.880] in front of anybody,
[44:41.880 --> 44:43.080] especially not fellow
[44:44.120 --> 44:45.320] other 13-year-old boys
[44:45.320 --> 44:46.120] because they're going to
[44:46.760 --> 44:48.360] repeat your shreds for that
[44:49.000 --> 44:50.600] sign of weakness, right?
[44:50.600 --> 44:53.560] So that 13-year-old rugby player,
[44:53.560 --> 44:56.360] that is one of my parts.
[44:57.320 --> 44:59.720] I listened just so you know.
[44:59.720 --> 45:03.880] So the fact that the gathering place
[45:03.880 --> 45:06.200] is where Linda brought
[45:06.200 --> 45:07.480] all the different parts.
[45:08.520 --> 45:09.720] And it's really interesting
[45:09.720 --> 45:12.120] that you found out about IFS
[45:12.120 --> 45:13.880] after you'd done that.
[45:15.880 --> 45:19.480] So I thought your gathering place
[45:20.360 --> 45:22.680] was your metaphor for IFS.
[45:23.320 --> 45:24.840] I knew about IFS,
[45:24.840 --> 45:26.200] but I hadn't researched.
[45:26.760 --> 45:28.360] To the extent that I did
[45:28.360 --> 45:29.160] after the fact.
[45:29.720 --> 45:32.600] So it was some kind of intuitive wisdom.
[45:33.240 --> 45:34.840] Because I've been in therapy
[45:34.840 --> 45:35.720] for a long time
[45:35.720 --> 45:40.120] and it was really learning about EMDR.
[45:40.120 --> 45:42.200] And I probably got bits and pieces
[45:42.200 --> 45:43.800] of the parts work through that.
[45:44.520 --> 45:46.280] And so I knew enough about it
[45:46.280 --> 45:48.040] to where I did write that story
[45:48.040 --> 45:49.080] in a meaningful way
[45:49.080 --> 45:54.040] that is congruent with IFS therapy.
[45:54.040 --> 45:56.120] Yeah, but it's so true.
[45:56.120 --> 45:57.560] It's so healing.
[45:57.560 --> 45:58.760] And I'm not just about
[45:58.760 --> 46:00.440] all one modality of,
[46:01.160 --> 46:03.320] you know, it must be IFS.
[46:03.320 --> 46:04.920] It must be EMDR.
[46:04.920 --> 46:05.640] Because guess what?
[46:05.640 --> 46:07.000] That would be rigid.
[46:07.000 --> 46:08.200] And we don't want to be rigid.
[46:09.000 --> 46:10.120] We want to be open
[46:11.480 --> 46:12.840] to what speaks to you.
[46:12.840 --> 46:14.360] And it really spoke to me
[46:15.000 --> 46:17.480] of I can't change what happened,
[46:17.480 --> 46:20.040] but I can go and bring healing
[46:21.000 --> 46:24.360] and update them with 2024 data.
[46:25.320 --> 46:26.520] That's the important thing
[46:26.520 --> 46:29.400] is to update the system knowledge base
[46:29.400 --> 46:31.320] where what that younger part
[46:31.320 --> 46:33.400] doesn't know is going to happen.
[46:33.400 --> 46:36.360] Now, capital S self can go back
[46:36.360 --> 46:38.280] and say, bring healing
[46:38.280 --> 46:39.560] with that new knowledge.
[46:40.440 --> 46:41.640] And so that's integration.
[46:42.200 --> 46:43.320] So you're healing yourself.
[46:46.200 --> 46:46.920] Well, yes.
[46:47.560 --> 46:48.920] But I am getting help
[46:48.920 --> 46:50.120] from all different sources.
[46:50.120 --> 46:53.080] I'm taking healing wherever I find it.
[46:53.080 --> 46:58.600] Yeah. So you are exploring
[46:58.600 --> 47:00.520] the different modalities.
[47:03.560 --> 47:05.800] But essentially, you're talking about
[47:07.080 --> 47:08.040] whatever it is
[47:08.040 --> 47:10.520] that helps you learn or grow.
[47:10.520 --> 47:14.440] And in the final in the final analysis,
[47:14.440 --> 47:15.720] it's it's all coming
[47:15.720 --> 47:16.760] to the upper case self
[47:16.760 --> 47:18.520] and then being shared with the past.
[47:18.520 --> 47:20.440] So is that how it works?
[47:21.080 --> 47:22.680] Yeah, I mean, I think we're all learning
[47:22.680 --> 47:24.200] back and forth from each other
[47:24.200 --> 47:25.640] because I'm finding out
[47:25.640 --> 47:27.720] what did you need at that time?
[47:27.720 --> 47:31.240] You know, when maybe you wanted
[47:31.240 --> 47:32.600] your parent to just ask you,
[47:32.600 --> 47:33.720] how's your day going?
[47:33.720 --> 47:35.560] Instead of berating you for not
[47:35.560 --> 47:37.480] cleaning the garage well enough.
[47:37.480 --> 47:39.640] Now, what did that part need at that time?
[47:41.880 --> 47:43.160] And so I bring healing
[47:43.160 --> 47:44.680] to that younger part and say,
[47:44.680 --> 47:45.720] I hear you, I see you.
[47:46.520 --> 47:48.520] And then the younger part shares with me.
[47:48.520 --> 47:49.800] This is what I needed.
[47:49.800 --> 47:51.800] So it's a reciprocity.
[47:52.840 --> 47:53.320] Process.
[47:57.480 --> 47:59.880] What are the most significant beliefs,
[47:59.880 --> 48:03.080] do you think that you've seen busted?
[48:06.120 --> 48:07.320] That makes me think of something
[48:07.320 --> 48:09.080] I just heard on a podcast.
[48:09.080 --> 48:10.920] Again, I think it was Michelle Madrid
[48:11.560 --> 48:12.520] where she said.
[48:14.440 --> 48:16.760] On the day her mother relinquished her
[48:16.760 --> 48:18.680] was the day that she relinquished
[48:18.680 --> 48:20.920] the right to love herself.
[48:22.680 --> 48:24.440] Because in that raw state,
[48:24.440 --> 48:26.280] we're not even two people yet.
[48:26.280 --> 48:28.760] We are symbiotic with our moms,
[48:28.760 --> 48:29.720] but we're severed.
[48:30.440 --> 48:35.160] And in her implicit mind understanding,
[48:36.040 --> 48:37.000] she was unlovable
[48:38.920 --> 48:40.360] because she had been relinquished.
[48:41.720 --> 48:43.480] So it took her to go back
[48:43.480 --> 48:46.200] and visit the validity of that belief.
[48:47.000 --> 48:48.360] And until she did that,
[48:48.360 --> 48:49.880] to change that to know that,
[48:49.880 --> 48:55.160] it's a better thing to believe
[48:55.160 --> 48:56.680] that you can love yourself.
[48:56.680 --> 48:57.720] If you can't love yourself,
[48:57.720 --> 49:00.440] then you really are down a deep, dark hole.
[49:01.640 --> 49:03.320] And for me, until I realized
[49:03.320 --> 49:05.320] that life wants life,
[49:05.320 --> 49:07.000] and I get that from Gabor Maté.
[49:07.720 --> 49:09.080] Life wants life.
[49:09.640 --> 49:11.880] And I'm thinking damn straight.
[49:11.880 --> 49:14.200] It didn't matter what my adoptive parents did
[49:14.200 --> 49:15.800] or my biologicals did.
[49:16.440 --> 49:19.000] The universe, the holy mystery,
[49:19.000 --> 49:19.880] wanted me here.
[49:19.880 --> 49:20.520] I'm here.
[49:20.520 --> 49:21.640] That's the proof.
[49:21.640 --> 49:23.000] It's the reason you're here.
[49:23.000 --> 49:25.320] It's proof that you were wanted.
[49:25.320 --> 49:27.720] So you see, that's where I could blow apart
[49:27.720 --> 49:29.960] that belief that I was not enough,
[49:29.960 --> 49:32.520] not worthy, shouldn't be here.
[49:32.520 --> 49:33.160] I'm a burden.
[49:33.800 --> 49:35.240] I blew it all apart.
[49:37.480 --> 49:42.360] One of the beliefs that I see is,
[49:44.520 --> 49:45.400] it's not anything
[49:45.400 --> 49:46.760] that I've ever believed myself,
[49:46.760 --> 49:50.680] but I see you'd be talking
[49:50.680 --> 49:51.560] about different people
[49:51.560 --> 49:53.640] like Gabor Maté, for example.
[49:53.640 --> 49:58.280] Now, I think there's a belief,
[49:58.280 --> 50:01.480] some, I have definitely seen this belief,
[50:01.480 --> 50:06.200] that we can only heal from listening
[50:06.200 --> 50:09.880] to adoptees, right?
[50:09.880 --> 50:12.360] It has to be all adoptee-centric.
[50:13.320 --> 50:19.480] And I think that that puts people
[50:19.480 --> 50:21.880] like Gabor Maté off-limits.
[50:23.720 --> 50:24.600] I disagree.
[50:27.480 --> 50:29.400] Yeah, because he has his own story.
[50:29.400 --> 50:32.520] I don't know if you heard of how his mother
[50:32.520 --> 50:33.480] was pregnant with him
[50:33.480 --> 50:34.840] during World War II,
[50:35.480 --> 50:39.800] and she was in deep trouble
[50:39.800 --> 50:40.840] of being deported
[50:41.720 --> 50:43.400] at the time of being pregnant.
[50:43.400 --> 50:45.400] And so she had to hand him to strangers
[50:45.400 --> 50:47.400] or family or something.
[50:47.400 --> 50:49.720] He was without his mom for a while,
[50:50.520 --> 50:52.520] and it affected him deeply,
[50:52.520 --> 50:53.320] the severance.
[50:53.320 --> 50:54.040] I never heard that.
[50:54.840 --> 50:55.640] I never heard that.
[50:55.640 --> 50:57.000] He talks about it quite often.
[50:58.200 --> 50:59.640] And so he also,
[50:59.640 --> 51:00.600] if you've never heard him
[51:00.600 --> 51:01.880] with Zara Phillips,
[51:02.600 --> 51:03.880] they have an amazing,
[51:03.880 --> 51:05.000] you can YouTube that,
[51:05.640 --> 51:07.480] of where he talks specifically
[51:07.480 --> 51:09.560] about adoptee issues.
[51:09.560 --> 51:11.480] Not that he isn't a adoptee.
[51:11.480 --> 51:12.600] I haven't dug deep enough.
[51:14.280 --> 51:15.880] I'll give it to you later.
[51:15.880 --> 51:16.760] It's really good.
[51:17.800 --> 51:18.300] Yeah.
[51:19.160 --> 51:19.960] Yeah.
[51:19.960 --> 51:21.720] Sorry, listeners.
[51:21.720 --> 51:23.720] I'm totally factually incorrect there.
[51:24.600 --> 51:25.100] Yeah.
[51:25.880 --> 51:27.480] Yeah, I have to dig that out.
[51:27.480 --> 51:28.680] I'm going to have to dig that out.
[51:30.360 --> 51:31.640] So conscious of time,
[51:33.480 --> 51:35.320] is there anything
[51:35.320 --> 51:36.760] that I've not asked you about
[51:36.760 --> 51:38.360] that you'd like to share?
[51:39.640 --> 51:42.120] Again, I feel like we really covered
[51:42.120 --> 51:43.640] a lot of territory,
[51:43.640 --> 51:46.440] and I got to express what has
[51:46.440 --> 51:47.560] actually been on my heart,
[51:47.560 --> 51:49.160] because I'm writing about it right now.
[51:49.800 --> 51:50.360] So thank you.
[51:51.240 --> 51:53.160] It helped me get more clarity.
[51:53.800 --> 51:54.920] Yeah, cool.
[51:55.800 --> 51:56.300] Cool.
[51:57.800 --> 51:58.520] Thank you, Linda.
[51:58.520 --> 51:59.320] Thank you, listeners,
[51:59.320 --> 52:00.760] and we'll speak to you again very soon.
[52:00.760 --> 52:01.560] Take care.
[52:01.560 --> 52:02.360] Bye-bye.
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