Healing All Our Parts With Kathy Mackechney

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello everybody welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast and delighted to be joined by Kathy Kathy Mackech. A second visit to the podcast, right? Yes

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're talking, we are doing so many episodes where we end up talking about IFS stuff and Kathy's just a leading lighting in this world of IFS especially for Adoptees.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You've done that, you've done your chapter. What's the book called? So there's the IFS latest agenda isn't just for Adoptees but there's this new book out

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's got different chapters in it so it's called altogether us and Kathy has done the chapter on Adoptees

[00:00:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So IFS and Healing. The question that I start with at the moment is to what extent does this word healing resonate with you?

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well first of all I want to say thank you for having me back it's great to get to talk to you again

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And thank you for mentioning that chapter in the book. I feel very proud of that. I feel very happy that Adoptees were included in this book

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And it is called altogether us and the subtitle is integrating the IFS model with key modalities, communities and trends

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel very happy that Adoptees were included as a unique community. So I just wanted to say that and thanks for mentioning it

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think this question about healing is as a good one and it's interesting. It makes me pause and thank

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And I notice that there is a part of me that seems to have some resistance to that word, but on the whole I absolutely believe in healing

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And believe it's possible and that's because I've experienced it and I experience it on going. So yes healing resonates with me and in IFS we

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Are doing healing work because we are healing different parts of us and the more healing we bring to different parts, the more spaciousness is opened up inside of us and the more we feel healed.

[00:02:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I just want to give a little bit of back story on this interview as well. So Kathy does a webinar a couple of hours.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Three hours was here. That's me.

[00:03:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Three and a half.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And I did the webinar with her a couple of months ago, four months ago, and these are some of the questions that kind of came up.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's the reason for the call. I'd completely forgotten about that listeners.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Look, Kathy, haven't so one of the things that you just said then about there's a part of you that resist.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a part of you that resist the word healing.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you know what? What, what that's about?

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think I do.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And I noticed it and what I get from it is that this part is one that got that message from

[00:04:02] [SPEAKER_00]: our society that what are the dopties need to heal from?

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, shouldn't they just be grateful that they got adopted?

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's that part that got that message.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, like, wait a second.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I shouldn't just be okay. I shouldn't be like all healed in all better because I got adopted.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is a part, but one of the things I love about IFS is that we recognize we consist of all of these different parts and not one of them represents all of who we are.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a part of me with that voice.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And it seems to be a singular voice sometimes, you know, there's a chorus of parts.

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_00]: That say the same thing, but in this case, it seems to be just one.

[00:05:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can make space for that part and actually I haven't done this yet, but if I went to the IFS healing steps, they're actually called the healing steps with this exile.

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_00]: This would be considered an exile.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_00]: I think, I haven't found out yet for sure, but I think it would be if I went through the healing steps with that part, then I could bring healing to that part too and that part would be healed.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So there's that part, but I from self believe and know that healing is possible and it resonates.

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And I like I said, I have experienced a lot of it myself largely from using this model and in some other ways too.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So I think it's what you sign the traumas in the traumas in the parts.

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, these parts well.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and trauma creates burdens.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's an important word in IFS.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And the healing process means unburdening parts of the burdens they took on when the trauma happened.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_00]: So trauma creates burdens that parts carry and burdens are things like beliefs, like I'm not good enough.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And nobody loves me.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Things like that.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So I've been saying as well as talking about IFS a lot recently, I've also been talking about a quote from Gabo Matay that relates to what you just said.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And it he, I'm not a Gabo Matay fan.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Big fat, I don't dislike him. I just find other people speak to me, muttlingly.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But this was like a true bomb for me, which I'm mentioning whenever I get a chance.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was the fact that feeling, we talked about the feeling of not feeling good enough.

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: But that is actually a belief. It's not, it's not a belief.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I believe seem more bustable than trauma seems healable.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_02]: If we've got a belief, we can maybe take a closer look at that belief.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Understand what beliefs are made of right, the made of thoughts that have become frozen in time,

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_02]: but become more solid. We can put a, we can look at if it was a, if I believe with if,

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_02]: if I believe was a sugar cube right, we could put it into some hot water and it,

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and by having a look at it and have a look at it put in some hot water and it might dissolve into the,

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's not as dangerous as potent as it used to be.

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, one try to eat one should be cube. It's maybe too sweet but in, in a cup of tea,

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_02]: it's going to taste all right. I don't, I'm really making this metaphor of as I go, right?

[00:08:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Let me think of another one.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So if we think of an ice cube, right? So there's some, we've had a,

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_02]: we've had a thought. I'm not good enough and that,

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_02]: that, and that's a droplet of water. We've had that droplet of water,

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: we've had that thought again and again. And it's become, we've felt cold and it's,

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's frozen and it's become an ice cube, right? So water is the thought that ice cube is the belief.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: If we bring that ice cube into the open air,

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: it up to room temperature, it's going to melt eventually.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to leave a little puddle of water and then over time the,

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_02]: the water's going to evaporate and there's nothing that right because that's,

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: that's what we look at in terms of beliefs and that seems to me.

[00:09:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes. Yeah. Then, then, like, healing, oh, healing.

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't really know what healing is, but I believe,

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: spearmor, bus to ball, then trauma, feels healing.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Helien can sound big, like you're saying, like, what do we even mean by that?

[00:10:19] [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds a bit overwhelming, but we can break it down.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And one thing I want to say about beliefs and helping parts unburden their beliefs is that

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_00]: this is the key in IFS. Parts cannot do that,

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and won't do that until they experience connection to what we call self with the capital S.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is what makes IFS different from other modalities and more than just a therapeutic modality,

[00:10:54] [SPEAKER_00]: but also a way of seeing the world.

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And self is the internal attachment figure.

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And once parts detect and experience self, which we all are born with,

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: this is a belief that we have in IFS.

[00:11:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody comes into the world with their part,

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and everybody comes into the world with self fully intact.

[00:11:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So we're all born with self.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And when we connect with parts from self and they experience that self energy,

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: that connection to self, that attachment to self,

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and self witnesses them, that means self receives everything that the parts want to share,

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_00]: or show us, or tell us, or make us feel about what they went through,

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_00]: about the trauma that happened to them.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_00]: When self witnesses them in that trauma,

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: or witnesses, you know, they're retelling of it to self.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_00]: That is what allows the parts to relax,

[00:12:09] [SPEAKER_00]: because they believe they've been heard,

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: they experience being heard and seen.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And then after that, and only after that,

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_00]: and after Stalt has continually asked,

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_00]: is there more?

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there more?

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that it?

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there more than you want to tell me?

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there more you want to share?

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Is there more you want to show me?

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Only after Stalt has asked that multiple times,

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_00]: and the part has reached a point where they're saying,

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_00]: no, that's it.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Only then do we say,

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: would you like to give up the beliefs that you took on at that time?

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Or anything that you took into your body at that time

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_00]: when that trauma happened,

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_00]: that you've carried a verse and said,

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_00]: would you like to give that up?

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_00]: So I just wanted to highlight that

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00]: because there can be a cognitive part of us

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_00]: that, like, here's this about,

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_00]: oh, it's really healing as, you know,

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: a matter of examining our beliefs

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and giving those up,

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_00]: then that cognitive part might try to do that.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's got an agenda to it, right?

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, I'm just going to examine my beliefs and let those go.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: That's very different coming,

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: that's very different coming from a part like that

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: versus coming from self with no agenda.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So self doesn't have an agenda that I'm here to heal these parts.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Self just wants to be with the parts

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and be in relationship to them.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for the clarification.

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And what I didn't make clear was that

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I would see that that belief as part,

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_02]: but busting beliefs is part of healing, not all of it.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a part because we've got all this.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You can only, if it's a belief,

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_02]: but beliefs, well, pre-verbal trauma isn't belief.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you mean pre-verbal?

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Pre-verbal trauma has got nothing to do with beliefs.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_02]: These are two different things.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I think for me, it was only the clarification that

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_02]: feeling not good enough is actually a belief.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_02]: A belief, yep.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_02]: That'd be part of it.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_02]: So at the moment, I'm doing, as regular listeners,

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_02]: now I'm doing some somatic stuff.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm looking at the pre-verbal stuff.

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm re-verbal stuff.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm exploring there's any pre-verbal stuff there.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And there is.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: There's some belief.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: There's some belief there.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So that would be associated with the

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_02]: two-week-old Simon.

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm going to spend both of the twice.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was in short-term foster care,

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_02]: but maybe I don't know three weeks, three and a half weeks.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So she hadn't been able to short-term foster,

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_02]: foster-man.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And then she collected me from that short-futterm foster-man

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_02]: when I was five weeks old.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And took me to the adoption agency.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And handed me placement, handed me over to this

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: social worker and then social worker and a bunch of my parents.

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So she lost me twice.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_02]: I have no memory of that.

[00:16:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm looking at that.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I have no conscious memory of that.

[00:16:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: I have maybe, maybe it's, if that's a bandicoke

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_02]: as it's right, it's stored in my body as a feeling.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's feeling feeling.

[00:16:22] [SPEAKER_02]: And that feeling feeling is very different

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_02]: to the feeling of not good enough.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_02]: It's far deeper.

[00:16:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's far more sticky.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It sticks around a lot.

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But I have how many of us have done stuff

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: that isn't as deep as that.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's why we've been on a healing journey for so long

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: because we haven't just got the depth of IFS.

[00:16:54] [SPEAKER_02]: We haven't explored self.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: We haven't explored self.

[00:16:59] [SPEAKER_02]: We've done some, because that's what we've done.

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So we've done some stuff that's not the therapy

[00:17:04] [SPEAKER_02]: has been around.

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_02]: It's been more about top therapy.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And still remains that way.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, so if I put, I was looking for a somatic killer, right?

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to drive that an hour and a half.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Five points through this.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Therapist near me into Google.

[00:17:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I get a gazillion results, right?

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: If I put somatic therapists near me,

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't get one and a go to driving out on a half.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So the therapy world has been dealing with,

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_02]: has been more about top therapy for non-adopties than it's been

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: about this work at depth.

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And I just, I want to piggyback on what you just said.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Because IFS is not considered talk there generally.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And many, I've heard many people say that.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: This is different from talk therapy.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's because it is so experiential.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And you really, you do go into the body.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, sometimes with more clients than with others

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_00]: just depending on the client and they're wiring.

[00:18:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I will use more somatic technique with som.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Because, you know, some people need that more.

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_00]: They connect more with that.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes when people are focusing on a part and we are inviting them to find it in or around their body, which is one of the steps that we do.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll invite people to maybe place a hand there on their body where they notice the part.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And that further promotes that connection.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are more somatically trained therapists than I who are much better at that than I am.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And I am always learning from them and I appreciate that because IFS is so experiential.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And so those somatic techniques are really helpful.

[00:19:11] Yeah.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And we're starting to see, as I said on the last.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_02]: The last recording, we started to see these people, these people come together.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And actually working together.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So, Dictionary, I was going to ask you guys, it did a webinar with Peter Levino's, the somatic.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Founding.

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Both co-founders working together.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And for me, that's really exciting because no longer are we staying just in our own little world.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: We're seeing it.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you're talking about drawing on your skills, different parts of your training to suit the client.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So you're giving a bespoke.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And you're giving a bespoke service rather than just saying, well, I know this and that's why I'm going to stick with it.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It's about being client-focused and...

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_02]: The different clients wanting a different approach or all that learning stuff might be different or...

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: It's really about following the client's system in IFS.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_00]: IFS is very client-led.

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_00]: It's completely client-led and we consider ourselves guides.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we are listening and paying attention and noticing where the client system is leading us,

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_00]: where their parts are leading us.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And as we listen, we are learning more about how their system works and we're listening to their language.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we're noticing whether they are using words that indicate that they visually see their parts,

[00:21:05] [SPEAKER_00]: which many people do, but not everybody does.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Or whether they feel their parts or just get kind of a sense of it, or they hear their parts.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And based on that, then we are following the client's lead and following where the parts need us to go.

[00:21:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:21:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I did a week on an LP 20 years ago.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_02]: So an LP one of the things in an LP it looks at where the people are visual, visual audio, audio, audio, audio or there.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Auditori, auditori, auditori or artistic.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's adjusting your language and your approach to the client.

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So the client's balance.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing I want to say about that is that in I have us, we believe we know that people possess everything that they need inside of them because they have self.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_00]: And so and I would just make one tweak to something you said a few minutes ago about exploring self what we say is accessing self.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Because we know it's there and you know sometimes people will ask like, what can I do in between sessions to get more self, get more into self.

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's not how we view it. It's not about like developing self or really even I mean, I guess you could say exploring it but it's by accessing it and noticing oh when I access it when the constraints what we consider constraints on self energy when those are released those are opened up.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_00]: What is my experience of self what does it feel like in my body how do I experience it. So I guess you could call that an exploration, but it's all about accessing self and removing the barriers or to it or constraints on it and those are burdened parts.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And so when we talk about releasing the constraints we're talking about unburdening parts we're not talking about getting rid of parts and that's an important distinction to make we don't get rid of parts but we help them unburden.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So that they experience feeling healed.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And that opens up more access to self.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So if the, yeah, if the if the parts are like churpers right on a mountain.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_02]: We're we are relieving them off their burdens rather than telling them that they're bad sugars.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes, the book that we always reference is the Dicture Os book that the one that I listened to so far it's called no bad parts.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So we're not we're not.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, we're not shaming we're not trauma.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00]: We're not trauma shaming you part.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Right now and the other big thing is you took use the word intact earlier on and I thought that the uppercase as self.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Is always in tact.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_02]: So that it's always there.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so if the if the burden say say the burden is shame they they all say go back to me.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm I'm that most of them you know the relinquishment part you know the loss.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a terror there's a there's a there's a there's a confusion where she gone where where she gone right.

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I've got a back where she gone again right and I'm just to making this up because that's not how I think.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And because I wasn't thinking at that stage I didn't have any cognition it was just pure feeling so there is a fear that little that little part of me.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And five weeks.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Was was yeah.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Confused.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. That's right, which is normal at that stage of a child's development and then there tends to be a part that a little bit older a little bit later age than that a little bit older age than that makes sense of that.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I used to make sense of that in the best way that they can at that age and at that age it's common to think.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Will it must have been me it must be my fault it must have been something that I did it must be something about me.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Which tends to be one of the parts that adopts is how.

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what we've talked about it, isn't it? That's what we've talked about that I'm not good enough.

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, right it's it's my fault.

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's there's a there's that thought that belief comes later because of see fight four week old Simon.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Did not that right.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Right for a week old Simon is the exile we would say that's one of the terms we use and in the IFS there are different types of parts there are exiles the more vulnerable ones.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_00]: All the big emotions and there are protectors the ones that try to figure things out and that try to take care of the exiles or protect the rest of the system from the exiles out of fear that if the exiles are you know allowed to.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Express the big feelings that they have that like that will negatively impact all the other parts in the system.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: So that that four week old Simon is the exile dot someone that has those feelings of what you said confusion and like wondering where did she go like what happened.

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And I can't remember any other feelings you named I know you said confusion. Yeah, confusion, tyros, god and the line yes yes terror right exactly and then.

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_00]: The part that I would say is generally a little bit older than that is the one that tries to figure out. Well, why did she leave yeah so a little more cognitive development comes online and at that point then they're doing the best they can at that age.

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And like we saw the part then determines well it must have been me it must be my fault I'm not good enough.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And that would be a protector.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So the uppercase as self.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Then it is basically.

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You you call it an internal attachment figure.

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so what I mean what I take from that in.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_02]: Given my limited knowledge of I've had is that the uppercase as self is an internal attachment figure or who is self self parenting the exile.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's it's the it's the it's me it's finding.

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's responding it's responding to the exile.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: By parenting.

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Simon, soothing Simon.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And instead of pushing Simon away like right.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'll it's bringing Simon.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It's bringing Simon in it's it's it's helping.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[00:30:02] [SPEAKER_00]: It's been it's been with you.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_00]: It's being with little Simon in the way that nobody was when that happened.

[00:30:13] [SPEAKER_00]: We do refer to it.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean we it is common for people in the IFS community to refer to it as like a read parenting of the part or yeah serving as the parent that's a part didn't have.

[00:30:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And I always have a little there's a part of me that has a little bit of hesitation about that just because it's also not uncommon to encounter.

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Another part in us an older adult part that wants to help and take care of other parts and like be that parent.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And so that's something that we're always checking in IFS is this is coming from maybe you know an adult like mother in me who wants to take care of this part and has an agenda to try to make the part heal better.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Versus is this coming in as my response to this part coming from self which just wants to be with the part and and be with it in that way that nobody was at the time that that trauma happened.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so what are the parts do you see in in us as a doctor's we talked about their exile we talked about their protect.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Who believes that they.

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_02]: The part just wanted it fails that they're not good enough.

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Well that's one of them so there are multiple exiles and multiple protectors.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so yeah, people.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yep, so that relinquished a baby.

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00]: That that's one of the exiles.

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And in terms of protectors yeah there's that one that believes well it must have been my fault and I'd say it's common to have one that likes to be in control.

[00:32:21] [SPEAKER_00]: In order to try to prevent anything else unexpected from happening.

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And there tends to be or it's not uncommon to find a perfectionistic protector art that tries to make us do everything right.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Do everything really well so that people like us and find us valuable and want us around and don't want to get rid of us.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_00]: There tends to be and well similarly to that it might be from the same perfectionistic part or another one there tends to be a part that likes to try to control how other people see us and what they think about us.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_00]: What I'll what am I forgetting those are the first ones that come to mind.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_02]: There's not a bit of insecurity with that last one is there.

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_02]: In security as in.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I can see the people please are and.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can see that and the perfectionist.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: The one is they cut the what the one that's cares about how we're seeing.

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a insecure one.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm thinking of well what we would say is that one and I mean I'd say isn't that what a perfectionistic part is focused on to.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's there these are all different ways that protectors have of trying to protect the part that believes it's not good enough or you know that worries that people won't like it that people want want it people won't want to be around it.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's not uncommon for there to be multiple protectors each trying different strategies to try to take care of the same exile.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So something came up for me.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I got the weeks ago.

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Somebody sent me.

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it was a birth I'm actually somebody sent me somebody that I've interviewed sent me a message I was thinking and it was really it was an ice message and I was thinking well.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: People see me at my best on their podcast.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And and they not let you other people have expressed that I'm a nice guy right and and I thought and I thought to myself.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_02]: This feels a little strange.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Because how often do I see myself like that.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so when I hear you say that what I hear possibly is what in I have us we call a trailhead.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's a thought or a feeling or a belief that if we explored it could lead us to the part that thinks that right so what I hear is sounds like there's a part of the world.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's a part of the world.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if this is it exactly but I don't know about that or I don't know if I think about myself or do I believe that how often do I think that.

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And so if like if I were using an IFS with you, you know, we were doing an IFS session and I'd say Simon.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to focus on that? Do you want to explore that?

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And then if you said yes, I'd say okay so focus on what you just said and tell me what you're noticing in or around your body.

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And then from there I'd be, you know guiding you through the process of learning more and you would be led to a part.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And we would continue to find out more and find out what it's protecting if it is protecting something or if it's the exile.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we'd go through the healing stops.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and Simon if I were a dick if I were Richard Schwartz because he does this all the time right if he were on your podcast and you did that.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd be just now when I said, so Simon if I were working with you, I'd be asking you do you want to focus on that and you be nodding.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And then if I were to get say do you want to do that?

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, she always.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And then he does an impromptu like little mini session right there on the spot.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's do that.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Seriously?

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay we can we can see how far we can get.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I know you're on a time you're on that time.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I felt that if I felt some warmth.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_02]: As I was sharing.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_02]: What would people say?

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I was sharing that with you as I was being vulnerable with that.

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I felt some kind of warmth on both of my arms.

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, okay.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So you notice some warmth when you when you ask that question about that, about this feedback that you've gotten from people.

[00:38:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, when I'm feeling a bit of warmth the fact that I've opened up to you and this is just a client session over over.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Right, this is the podcast.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So there's a little bit of self consciousness, we stay a little bit of warmth or embarrassment or whatever that was in my arms.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But you know I'm thinking yeah go for it, you know she's.

[00:38:50] Yeah.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so go, so go back to what you were saying.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So which is what people have said the feedback that you've gotten and that you asked the question how often do I see myself that way, like you've gotten feedback that you're a nice guy.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel I feel people's warmth to me right.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_02]: What happened was I thought that those people must think of my nice guy, you know people think of my nice guy and my questions myself was.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: How often do I feel that myself.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so right there.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I tear it up literally.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I say that.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so stay with that.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_00]: The theory now and that question how often do I feel that and just notice what is happening inside your body right now and where you're being drawn.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm feeling it's I feel in a bit tricky because this is the podcast right.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_02]: You're right right and yeah.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to do this you don't have to proceed.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_00]: But I can say this is actually a really nice illustration of what we're talking about a little while ago about how I have thus is not just talk therapy.

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_00]: How you go into the body and it's not I don't know if this is what is happening for you, but sometimes when we do that even at the very beginning like this.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But can feel pretty intense.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if that was is what was happening for you, but it there is vulnerability right there right beneath the surface often.

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we are respectful in the you know in the role of the guide and we check it out.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Is it like and I didn't ask this, but this would be a good place for me to ask is this okay with the rest of your system is this okay with the rest of your parts if we do this right now if we go there so we're getting permission from everybody else all the other protectors and everyone else.

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So that we know that we do have permission and we're not just bypassing these protectors and a lot of times with with this model people.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Commonly think understandably so as a result of I think how the models often presented and what people learn about it that we're trying to get protectors like out of the way.

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But that's an agenda and we're trying to get the protectors out of the way so we can go to the examples and heal them speaking of healing.

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_00]: It's common to think like that's where all the healing is if we can just get those protectors to step back then we can go to the examples and heal them.

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But those protectors are so important they have been working diligently our whole lives to try to protect us not knowing that self is there.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You know they at the point in time when they started doing what they do and they started doing their jobs.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't know self was there or they didn't have access to self and so they were like well I guess I better figure it out.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And they figured it out as best they could at age five or eight or 12 or six you know whatever the age.

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And they have been doing that job tirelessly thinking they have to do it believing that they are in charge often believing that they are self thinking like I'm Kathy or I'm Simon.

[00:42:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And so we don't bypass them we form relationships with them we connect with them for themselves.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so as you were talking that I was thinking that I couldn't go there.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02]: When we're talking right.

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But I'm now putting a couple of things together so this that happened this moment of when I cheered up that happened two weeks ago and I did the smatic.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I did the somatic work the following day.

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_02]: We did the smatic work the following day and it brought up some stuff a lot like go some brought up some grief like you were talking about as you were talking about the use the word exile.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_02]: What I actually did with the somatic experience is is brought the grief writing.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So instead of trying to push the grief away.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm bringing the grief writing in and I'm feeling it.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not just sitting with it.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm crying yeah.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah yeah.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And that maybe that little little little work.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe that moment has.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Rawts.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Rawts of healing that means that I don't access or I couldn't go to that place talking with you.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So it wasn't there.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah right well and I'm not your therapist and we're not in a there session.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was you know, I was I was laughing about what Dick does because he I've heard him do that so many times and people have generally been willing to go along with it.

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think because.

[00:44:58] [SPEAKER_00]: In general, I think a lot of people anyway find Dick very trustworthy and.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so you know they're game for it but I was.

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't like really intending to try to like get you to go there.

[00:45:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So let's go let's go to this.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_02]: This identity piece then.

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, let's go to this identity piece because you.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_02]: You you said something just then about the identity and and as getting confused about identity so could you.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Could you try to find.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what I think you were talking about when I said that these parts will think that they are self.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes and.

[00:45:52] [SPEAKER_00]: So this is what I believe about identity in IFF that.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So it does have an identity because even though self with the capital S has all of these common qualities to it like they're called the eight sea.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Compassion connection curiosity creativity confidence courage and clarity, I think I got them all.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Even though self has everybody's self has those qualities to it.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_00]: What my compassion looks like maybe different from what your compassion looks like my creativity might look different from your creativity so there is like a unique signature that each of our selves has each self has so it does have an identity.

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And there are all of these parts self consists of or contains I should say all of these different parts that each have their own personality and their own little identity like in the movie and side out.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And if you haven't seen inside out to yet you must not see I've seen first when it came out.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you got to see the second one.

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_00]: But each one of those parts in the movie sadness joy, anger, fear, disgust, each have their own unique personality and that's a great illustration of parts each of our parts has its own personality so it's own little self identity.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And the way I see it is that the more that we get to know and unburden all of our parts, the more the more we come to know self and the more the more and more and more we come to know our unique self.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's hard to fully know self with the capital S if we don't know all of our little selves, all of our parts.

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's really what that workshop my workshop that you mentioned that you attended is all is about not all parts get adopted is about finding those parts that didn't get adopted for various reasons some of them because they didn't want to be.

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And they were out and stayed behind or stayed where they were and the more and then they are.

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_00]: They're more cut off from us.

[00:48:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And so when we go exploring and look for them and find them and meet them and get to know them.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Then we get an even fuller sense of who we are or our identity, self with the capital S.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And so one of my slides for that workshop says something like you know you can't know yourself with the capital S without knowing your little selves or you know your parts.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So the more parts that we know and the more connections we have to them the more self to part connections we have the more we come to know our unique self with the capital S.

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that feels like you're really good place to bring in and you've got to go anyway so as well.

[00:49:33] [SPEAKER_02]: So I would.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_02]: As always listen to this.

[00:49:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Resonance with you check out their show notes and.

[00:49:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Kathy's website.

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And then next workshop can I mention the next one.

[00:49:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll share.

[00:49:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well the next actually the very next one is August 24th and that one is full but the one after that is September 28th.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And the best place to register is probably to find me on Instagram and that's a dopti therapy.

[00:50:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the link to registration is in my bio.

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Brilliant.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_02]: Shall I go?

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you Kathy.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much Simon it was great to see you and get to chat with you again.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Good on you.

[00:50:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks listen, we'll speak to you.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks.