Lightening The Load With Craig Hyman

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of The Thrive, your Doctor's Portion.

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Still I want to do a light to be joined by Craig.

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm looking forward to our conversation today, Craig.

[00:00:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, hi, Simon. I'm very excited to be here. I really am honored that you would want me on the show

[00:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and also looking forward to our chat. Thank you.

[00:00:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and listeners, Craig's got some problems going on with these, with these back.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I said, like, do you want to just postpone it to the feeling?

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So now we've got to do it now. So let's get on and correct it.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_00]: This guy has an incredible work appetite.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_00]: He's told me, gets between three to five hundred emails a day and he's got a response

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_00]: about two-thirds of them. So this guy is a worker, right? This is a volume guy.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_00]: So look it, so hopefully the hour has ascetic, right? Hopefully this hour should be a little bit of

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_00]: respite from emails and that sort of stuff.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, look forward to that.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_00]: So the first question really for you, Craig, is to what extent does this word healing

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: resonate with you?

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. Well, the word healing resonates with me,

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: greatly, I would say, incredibly so.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: It's as an adopty, a reunited adopty of foster care and months of foster care, getting

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_01]: my life person.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It's always been and it's if my life is one long football game.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And from the very beginning, since I can remember,

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and the goal of the game is healing. It primarily from the primal wound, which those of you

[00:01:59] [SPEAKER_01]: who don't know is, you know, well, you probably do but it's promulg, you know, separation anxiety,

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_01]: so on and so forth, as well as the issues from my dysfunctional family in that order.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So part of the problem is that the game never really ends. You, you can arrive at certain

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: benchmarks in your process and in time and I feel like I'm probably as far along as I'm going to get

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: in my healing but it's a lifelong occupation, if you will. So I don't see it ever ending

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: but I'm certainly a lot farther along than I was, but healing, yeah, healing sort of the goal

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and life for someone like me. So, yeah, you know, and what does it mean?

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: What does it mean to you? Well, to me healing means a few things. As it applies to me personally,

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't speak for others but I think number one would be understanding exactly what is happening

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: with me when my adoption issues and complex these arrive. I'm sorry, and having the tools and

[00:03:24] [SPEAKER_01]: insights to know what to do with them when they arise. I will give you a quick sort of story.

[00:03:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a fan of Rambas who I was fortunate enough to know and take his retreats and so on and so forth.

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And what he talks about is, you know, somebody asked him in the retreat I was in, they said,

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: well, after all the work that you've done on yourself, you know, in this guy's he's a Harvard psychology

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_01]: PhD in this written multiple books. So, after all the work you've done on yourself from thus,

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_01]: do you feel that you've gotten out from under your issues? He says, no, he says nothing,

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: nothing is changed. He said basically now when they come up, oh I do, as I invite them in,

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I said hey, how are you? Good to see you again. Come have a seat sit down and just sort of being with them.

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: He would say allows them to go away much more quickly. So it's sort of just a way of maybe

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_01]: working through it just by allowing it rather than fighting it. Yeah. I would say it also means

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to me it means an ease of weight, like a weight like lightning of a load of sadness, depression,

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: helplessness that I feel I've carried around since Earth as I can remember. Again,

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_01]: the primal wounds so it allows me to feel healing allows me to feel happier and more peaceful

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and serene, during the process and also arriving at certain benchmarks as I said. Yeah. So,

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought of Rambdas speak a bit. Was he really big in the 60s and the 70s? Oh,

[00:05:32] [SPEAKER_01]: yes. Huge. I mean he, so he was in Harvard with Timothy Leary and they started doing the LSD

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_01]: experiments with prisoners who had no remorse for having killed people and rape people and

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_01]: no understanding how that can affect others and through, through bringing it into the time,

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: the drug was legal. Bringing this drug into this setting and allowing them to take it was allowing

[00:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: them to leave their psyche or their perspective and see themselves differently and how what they have

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: done could be wrong or how it hurt others or others that were attached to those that they may be

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_01]: murdered. And then he started bringing students in on the experiments and then the faculty

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_01]: of course didn't like that and then he and and then they declared LSD illegal and then he and

[00:06:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Leary, Timothy Leary were both fired from a Harvard. And the interesting thing about those two

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_01]: is Timothy Leary is pure science. Like he doesn't Rambdas used to say that he said

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Leary that is that Leary would say I don't have a spiritual bone in my body whereas

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Rambdas replaced he wanted to he is a completely spiritualist. We know he wanted to stay at these

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_01]: levels these psychological highs from the LSD but they would keep wearing off. So he went to India

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: and where he met his founder's guru named Karole Baba and what he did is he discovered meditation

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: in such a deep way that it allowed him these sort of for lack of better word and toxicated

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: conscious states organically and that was his pathway for many, many years to follow and he wrote

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: about it so on and so forth. Yeah I mean the inviting domain it's it's a whole new relationship

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_01]: with troller. Yeah I mean we look it's going to be there no matter what we do so

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_01]: you know our I think generally speaking our initial response when something uncomfortable

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: comes up whether it be physical or mental or whatever is to push it away or try to fix it

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: away from it as quickly as possible because it doesn't feel good it feels bad and it makes

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: perfect sense but you know the psychological stuff and when you're in a top D you're carrying around

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: trauma and your body your camera carrying around trauma and the cells of your body and your mind

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_01]: just subconscious everywhere. It's part of your fiber so it's going to keep coming up and

[00:08:36] [SPEAKER_01]: yes can push it away or yes you could take a drink to try to mask it or yes you can act out

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and yelling at some of the else for how you feel but the reality is you know finding ways coping

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01]: coping mechanisms to just allow it to be and I'm being able to know what it is is half the battle

[00:09:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you know what it is you know it won't last forever and you know it won't kill you although it

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: feels like it may and then you sit with it maybe meditate maybe go running I don't know you just

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: let it be and then it does leave eventually. I hope that all makes sense. Yeah it does I

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_00]: um as regular listeners might not might now I mentioned it. I've been doing some

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_00]: somatic experiencing recently very powerful and I'm going to see you again tomorrow actually so

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been going every month for maybe four or five months I think sometimes I just see you everyone

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and the last session was particularly powerful and it was visceral

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_00]: well inviting them in I the word that occurred to me at the time was very similar but it was

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: embracing them and bring them in so close they actually form part of us

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_00]: they bring them in so close and there's no distinction between us and the feeling

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_00]: and also there's no definition of the feeling. Right that's very important. Sorry to interrupt

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: but what you just said to me is so very important the fact that our primal wound and and who we are

[00:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: they are the same thing we are one in the same because that's how we were born into the world that

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: so well but wouldn't that what would run us say about that learn? Wouldn't he say

[00:11:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that we're not our body that we're spirit with a ghost in the machine and

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah he would say that you know the physical form is just a package so but it is connected to the

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: lines so I guess we can not argue but talk about it from both sides of the street the fact that

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: we are not we are not our bodies we are that's just the package to contain our souls through

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: this journey in this lifetime but at the same time it's sort of like it's you know the primal wound is

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_01]: so deep and our cellular memory I mean I could speak for myself I know it is for me so in that sense

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_00]: you know it's one in the same but yeah yeah and this is a dialogue and this is where we're going to

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_00]: right so I totally agree with you I totally agree with you and the last somatic experiencing session

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_00]: was proof for me of that I I had this theory a few weeks ago that because

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: because I can't remember they're really in christmas you know and what do they call it the

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_00]: explicit memory in my cognitive memory it's implicit right so it's within

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_00]: it's cellular as you so I'm aptly put it because I can't remember him I was thinking I haven't

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: got a mental picture of losing my birthma I was thinking that my mind might overestimate it

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I might over cook might be over cooking it right because I I I build that I've got quite a

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: creative fast-flowing mind right and I'm thinking so my mind could be

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: over cooking it could be over emphasizing it and what I realized actually

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: in the somatic experience is that I think underestimating it

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_00]: right I've been underestimating it I have this this is really in for you to realize

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: it could go either way with someone like us it can go it can go it can go either way

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's I'm decelerated and I say this quite a lot at the moment right so

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: the healing question on one level psychologically we may be healing forever

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: so I mean agreement with you on that we're gonna be healing forever

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_00]: and I think it's happening on at least two levels so if we look at I look at healing

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_00]: from two levels or one level will be healing psychologically forever and on another level the

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_00]: essence of who we truly are is untouched by the trauma which would be kind of I would

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: having heard Rungus a few times that's why I thought he would say he would see it like that

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_00]: so there so but I didn't see that separation I didn't see this multi-led

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: aspect to healing until last year that was a big insight for me because I was

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: committed it from fully the kind of like the unwauded essence and and people were saying

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot well some people were saying yeah I get it Simon but other people were sort of slightly

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: they're scratching the heads if not actually but you know and

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and but give given that this untouched essence what Richard Schwartz of IFS mentioned him a

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_00]: lot on the sarcastic at the moment that uppercase S south that's untouched that's the hope

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that's where my hope is that's where my hope is and that uppercase S south that's where I think

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_00]: all our clarity on identity is right that's our clarity and identity and this it

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_00]: been interview lots of IFS experts and sorry I've as experts recently who are also adopted

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: and the trauma is in our parts you know the the trauma is in the part so the little easiest one

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_00]: is you know five week old Simon that doesn't know where his mum's gone like you'll have

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_00]: we all have these different parts and our essential S uppercase S south is the unwindable essence

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_00]: so yeah that's kind of how I see it now I'm sure I'll see it differently as we as we go on

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and that's the genius of interviewing all these different people right you can like

[00:17:13] [SPEAKER_00]: where we're looking at that perspectives we're looking at that perspective we're looking

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm interviewing them around that collect the shifts in perspective you've used it you've

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_00]: used to work right you used to it inside and tools well I guess you you you started with

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00]: understanding right understanding sensing what's going on you know having an hour and

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_00]: channel like being being aware of what's going on being yeah being or being aware so there's an

[00:17:52] [SPEAKER_00]: site's pace and you're so talked about tools as well so what's let me go for the insights

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: bit first or what's your perhaps certain moments might come to mind or certain insights might

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_00]: come to mind or what what's the most important thing for you around though that insight

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff in terms of sharing it with the listens so when you see insight can you elaborate or be a

[00:18:32] [SPEAKER_01]: little more specific so I'm responding to the right thing going down the right I can Earth

[00:18:39] [SPEAKER_00]: so by an insight I mean in this sense I mean a hot hole but I might well when I

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_00]: there's insights have different levels right so it's it's a new thought or a change thought

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_00]: that's how I that's how I define insights it's a it's a new thought it's a

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_00]: it's a change thought or it's a change in an hour belief now and the other thing that's

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: really important for me in terms of insight is how powerful they are okay so we might have

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_00]: like a new idea might just pop into our head but like doing the somatic experiencing

[00:19:29] [SPEAKER_00]: it's like a whole body insight right and I'm connected I'm the back of that I connected

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_00]: four losses in mind like back to the loss of my Earthman it was a it was a whole body insight

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_00]: it wasn't just that oh that's so that's a nice topic to talk about on the podcast

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_00]: or that's a nice new idea it's got depth it's got profundity and it comes it comes with a load of

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_00]: emotion and it's a ship and that's another way would be describing an insight would be a shift

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_00]: a fundamental shift in our perspective with the comes with an emotional chart

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_01]: well I think I think for me I think you mentioned how for you there were four significant ones

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: for me I think that I think it's been ongoing throughout life and they just sort of keep coming

[00:20:32] [SPEAKER_01]: up you know everyone uses the sort of analogy of the onions skin you just keep peeling it back

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and it's you know you never quite get to the end of it but you know I think I'm also a highly

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: sensitive person I don't know how many people don't know what that is it should just google

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: highly sensitive person or HSP which is actually a personality trait and I think 20% of

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: so there were there were two significant moments in my life related to adoption the first one was

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I when I read Nancy Varier's primal wound when it was presented as a paper before it was a book

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: were to the AAC I'm gonna say that was around 8990 now I had been in reunion I was reunited with

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody in my biological world families both parents in 1987 after an 11 months search this

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_01]: is pre-internet and you know it was you in reunion was rough but it was a couple years later that's

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_01]: a birth mother friend of mine gave me the primal wound as a paper and I read it and I for the first

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_01]: time in my life I felt like I wasn't crazy I felt like this is explaining to me what happened to me

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_01]: why I am the way I am why I have some of the issues and the challenges that I do and how they were formed

[00:22:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and because you know I was left I mean I I've been in therapy since I'm nine I'm approaching

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_01]: 66 fortunately I love therapy and enjoy the process because I couldn't live without it and there have

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_01]: breaks over time but but it's been pretty consistent the the primal wounds yeah so you know we

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: we formulate when we don't know about ourselves or we don't know what's going on we we we've I don't

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: know fantasize is the right word but we just we use whatever set we have to try to figure out

[00:23:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and put into perspective what's going on with us and from that draw conclusions but the reality is

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: was that my set was to limit it and did not have any of the right information until I read that paper

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and that changed my life and then when it became a book I was a static and I've read her other books

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I did a couple of sessions with in therapy with Nancy I know Nancy for a long time I haven't

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_01]: talked during a long time but I've known her yeah for years she's she's a god send for us adopt these

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_01]: but so that was the beginning and then there was you know the first time I read the highly

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: sensitive person by Elaine Aaron that was in a second time when I thought like geez I'm not crazy

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and explain exactly well why my life was the way it was and how I was reacting and responding

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: the things and so on and so forth those two those two books changed my life they were the most

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_01]: important things I had ever read but sort of sticking to the adoption stuff you know there were

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_01]: therapy um very helpful I was in an art therapy a spiritual art therapy process for four

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and a few years in Berkeley California and I've done pretty much every type of therapy there is

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and that was the most profound and most healing of any and and a lot of it when I had a seminar

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: which I still have I just I'm not active with it right now called the inside out the expressive

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: arts adoption healing seminar it's an eight hour intensive over the half hour lunch break where

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: we do various exercises all things that I found to be the most healing for me and we extract

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_01]: of them put a minute sort of a linear a form that that built one upon each other

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: throughout the day that has been seem to have helped a lot of people and helped me in the process

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: of just helping others around this issue but um that art therapy process there was a particular

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: time when what we used to do is I would draw something from because the drawing comes from subconscious

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_01]: and then we divide it in quarters and then we pick one and then we go I go into it and

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_01]: then it closed my eyes and I meditate I just let it take me where it takes me and we did one around

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: the prime of wounds and I was able to come to a place where I could see my prime of wounds

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_01]: what it looked like and it was a very sad little it looked like a tadpole at the bottom of sort

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: of an ocean cave just very sad all alone and there's much more to it than that but that was

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_01]: the first time I was ever able to like really identify it with an image and so on and so forth

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and we spent time with it and she walked me through, talked me through various things

[00:26:33] [SPEAKER_01]: until I came out of it later which may have been like 45 minutes or an hour

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and that that that that lightens my load that eased a lot that helped me towards

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_01]: healing that that wounds by identifying it and being with it and seeing it and knowing that

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: it's it's me and it's a part of me and that was a life altering moment and I found that the art

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: therapy process has been more powerful than most anything else I've done around the

[00:27:12] [SPEAKER_00]: options. Vika and a handle on why that might be to this the most powerful

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: because I think what happens is most of the work you do is you're operating from a subconscious place

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: so your filters can't get in the way you know when you're talking to a therapist for example

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes you hold things back sometimes you only want to say so much of a story or a situation

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: our therapy it's kind of like you move yourself out of the way because she would say you know

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: let's do a drawing and when we draw and create art we think we know what we're entent our

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: intention is and sometimes we get that out if you want to copy a photograph and painting or

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: something but the reality is it's coming from a subconscious place so what the subconscious wants to

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_01]: express it puts out on on the paper and then spending time with that it allows you to go

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_01]: inside the subconscious where you're bypassing again all the filters because it's almost

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_01]: how it's almost as if you have nothing to do with it you're just like the vehicle that this process

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and this subconscious thing is using to take the ride on it. That's a little far-reaching but I mean

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_00]: really how I feel. Yeah, I had a great great phrase today listen to a

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_00]: potter store and audio book for a time and watch for it and it was the body is our subconscious mind

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and I thought well that's the same thing as the other memory yeah

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_00]: sorry I mean yeah no no but that's it but the body is a subconscious mind

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard a lot recently at the fact that subconscious is essentially what we don't have words for

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: so people talk about pre-verbal, trauma and adoption being pre-verbal, trauma so that was the message

[00:29:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I kept on hearing again and again from adoptive therapists on the show last year right pre-verbal,

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: trauma, pre-verbal, trauma, pre-verbal they were mentioning it and I thought well I haven't

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_00]: made it's time for me to go back in and because I do an awful lot of listening to audio books

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and awful lot of listening to podcasts around this area, around the consciousness area

[00:30:17] [SPEAKER_00]: but I don't do any I'm not doing any actual therapy on that I thought and if it's pre-verbal

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I need to do so that's why I kind of started and I started looking at what it did because

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_00]: but the idea that subconscious actually subconscious is and the nonverbal or one in the same

[00:30:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that clarifies things for me a lot because we talk about this idea all the time don't

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_00]: wait me to right I've stuffed my you know I've stuffed my trauma so far down bit below now

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00]: are we doing that I mean are we choosing it it's a really tricky one but me to you know

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: to digest to get to a truth on but if somebody says well subconscious and nonverbal the

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: sign you can think you can start to think yeah okay I get I get this because of pre-verbal

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_00]: we don't have words for it yeah and how and and for how long of of people being

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_00]: doing verbal therapy doing talk therapy for something that isn't the for trauma that's

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_00]: pre-verbal no no wonder it's not you know no no wonder let let let let's say no wonder it's so

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_00]: challenging no wonder let's look at it from from from what you just said no wonder

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_00]: a therapy that has got nothing to do with the mind something that looks at pre-verbal subconscious

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_00]: salina memory trauma no wonder that art therapy especially spiritual art therapy you know we're going

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: beyond the body we're going beyond that you know we're going to the to the deep stuff and it's a

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_00]: different way of accessing parts of us that rammed us in Timothy Lerig we're doing with LSD right it's just

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: different it's a different it's a different route to no mind isn't that yeah absolutely and I mean

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_01]: you're hitting it right on the head or on the nose sort of speak you know pre-verbal and what

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: did you say pre-verbal and trauma yeah same same thing so I mean like for example

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_01]: you know I the most unnatural act in the world is to separate a child from their biological mother right

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_01]: so that's that's a trauma and then being an infant a newborn you have no template experiences

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: in life except that which you were absorbing in the womb through your birth mother's life experiences

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and back in in the day in my situation my birth mother was sent off to an unwind mother's own

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: alone 17 years old depressed the sad the only outlet she had was um she used to play piano and

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: sing on Saturday night for the other unwind mothers which I have I have reactions to like I can

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: start crying I did this all my life until I realized in therapy what was happening maybe eight

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01]: years ago so when I would hear something like a carol king a loranero or rickly jones my birth mother

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: sounded like that and I would start to cry I didn't know why but anyway so so we have no template

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_01]: experience we're ripped from the only source of literally everything in our world in our set everything

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and we have we can't speak we can't express anything all we can do is cry my feeling is that we

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_01]: we just not only experience but become nothing but terror like we are just completely terrified

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: we are in our most vulnerable states you know as an infant preverbal pre everything

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and all we do is internalize this trauma this shock I'm of the mindset that the quicker

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: there are two types of bonding I'm sure you know there's the biological mother and then the

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: mean that to although they're not the same they're very different they're both very important and

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_01]: profound the shorter the gap between the two the better for the child the infant the adoptee

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_01]: in my case I was stuck in a foster home for ten months yeah it's my birth mother wouldn't sign the

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_01]: papers after three weeks and then after ten months let them once you finally did I don't know

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: exactly what happened in the foster home I can't find the foster home I had a lead once I may have

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_01]: talked to the son of the woman who fostered me but I don't know for fact that it was there

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: but but there was abuse and there was some trauma from that as well but you know to have three

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_01]: mothers by the time you're 11 months old that presents a whole mother bag of issues so yeah I'm

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: agreeing with everything you're saying and it's a complicated life long experience digging out from

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_01]: that stuff but yeah that's yeah I thought so yeah what do you think gets in the way by

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_01]: of healing well I think first and foremost is a lack of understanding what is actually going on with us

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you know for me was especially as a child and then a teenager you know my adoptive parents my

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_01]: teachers society in general they had no idea what was going on with me what I was reacting to

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: and behaving at of what place for what reasons so so basically they were telling me not to be

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: something in a certain way and someone that I was being that was that was as a result of this trauma

[00:37:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and this abuse and foster care and what have you and they didn't even know that they were responding

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_00]: to the wrong things so you were born what we born 59 and 58 the memory yeah and yeah

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_00]: you talked about you reading the primal room does a primal where does the paper back in 89 so

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_00]: of 19 the book came out like 93 I think yeah so they're an opening sorry it was only 30 pages

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_01]: when I first read it because it was presented as a paper wow the production, Congress yeah sorry yeah

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01]: but so no being you no so this is this is a great great big problem in society I mean this is

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_01]: this has been changing slowly over the years but I feel that it's one of one of my

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_01]: obligated I don't know if calling us the right word obligations to you know my my god my higher power

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_01]: my universe more important than anything other adoptees and to educate society in general

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_01]: about the things we're talking about here today like people walk around thinking even still well

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_01]: you know a child needs a family and a parent which it does a parent family wants another child

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: okay and and it's you know you put them together and it's happy ever after well

[00:39:38] [SPEAKER_01]: it certainly can help but it's there's a lot more to it than that and people don't know this

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and so so you're getting all these you know they're telling you don't don't be this way

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_01]: don't be that we don't don't respond like this you know don't respond like that don't act

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_01]: this way and it's kind of like I think I'm doing it because of reasons that are completely unrelated

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_01]: and disconnected from the real reasons I'm doing it so my my thing about adoptive

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_01]: for adoptive parents is you know sometimes I do mentoring and coaching and people seek my my

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: information that I'm talking about now is I think it's more important than anything to know

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: and as much as as possible what the infant has been through before you adopt them which will

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_01]: help you then address not only those things but everything about that child as they grow in life

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_01]: because like for me as an example my parents meant well you know they they sat me down with the

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_01]: BJ lift and years later was asked to rewrite update and they would sit me down once a week and

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_01]: explain what happened to me you know and so on and so forth so but this is all they had this this is

[00:41:07] [SPEAKER_01]: what the agency told them to do, stench japan in New York and so they did it but

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_01]: but they didn't have enough information they didn't have enough tools they were that's not going

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: much so that's that's what kind of a method I'm sorry to yeah do any any more external

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_00]: barriers to our healing come to mind or any internal barriers because clearly this wider societal

[00:41:41] [SPEAKER_00]: ignorance right that that that is as we grow enough given our given our you know they lack of

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_00]: power that we have the the environment's going to clearly place a big part but any any other external

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_00]: barriers or any kind of like internal barriers to healing come to mind oh yeah so therapy is to me

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: really important preferably somebody who understands something about adoption at least something

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: but you know finding neto's people are more available than they used to be

[00:42:25] [SPEAKER_01]: finding that person the right person then affording that if your insurance isn't covering it

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember during my right after my reunion um I mean it was a dampest um and that's a whole

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_01]: another conversation for next time but I remember going from therapists to therapists and paying them

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and none of them knew what I was talking about and they were taking notes and I was educating them

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and I was the one that was I was really suffering I mean very severely suffering and so not

[00:43:12] [SPEAKER_01]: either having the ability or affordability or access to right therapy not knowing about resources

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_01]: support groups most importantly which I think was really kept my sanity in check and

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_01]: was healing was finding the community and mostly it was through the maladopty group that I ran for

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_01]: years that I created out of need to be around other adoptees a that experience what I experienced so we

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_01]: can help each other sort through it and be validation big one validation and and stuff that was

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_01]: more specific towards males as opposed to female adoptees there is not 100% but quite a difference

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_01]: so you know um and I guess sometimes in terms of what might have blocked

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01]: you sort of overwhelming issues um might be let's see you know sometimes the pain and the

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_01]: feelings that this is sort of unintentionally self inflicted block that the pain and the issues

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and the confusion is so deep and so intense that it's just so painful and uncomfortable to go there

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_01]: that it has to sometimes take it it blocks the process it has to be in small bites so to speak

[00:45:10] [SPEAKER_01]: sometimes small little increments um yeah and I think you know it's also very important to have

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01]: healing a supportive environment whether it be friends, families, love or partner what have you

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_01]: because if anyone's giving you the wrong message and they're not supporting what you're going through

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_01]: they don't have to understand it they just have to accept that this is what you need and that

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: they need to be supportive of it that that can be a killer like that that can really work in the reverse

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_00]: direction of where you want to go yeah I'm I'm not just a fat time

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Greg is the is I think you like to share that that I've not asked you about

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_01]: um let me thank for a moment I think your questions were covered a lot and really the most

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_01]: important things and it's sort of a great umbrella um approach you know I think I think for

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_01]: me what's just really important is um you know to have a support system but I think I think we

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_01]: really have a responsibility to educate society about what adoption is and what it's like for us

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and what would help us and what what adopted parents are getting into exactly and how to

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_01]: help the child um there aren't a ton of forums around in other words like this by this point

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and in in in our society this should become an knowledge like people should know this stuff right

[00:47:21] [SPEAKER_01]: this has been adopting kids for a god knows how long and it seems to be a small minority and mostly

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_01]: in terms of if you're not an adopted adoptive or birth parent it's only the adopted parents who

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: are seeking to adopt a child that go down the path of trying to get more information and oftentimes

[00:47:42] [SPEAKER_01]: are met with this this information which isn't what they were looking for they were just looking

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_01]: for how do what do we need to know and how do we do this and it's like oh the kid had a trauma

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_01]: geez you know so I think somehow I mean I've seen it done in films and and I saw a great

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_01]: film the year to go it was the to me there there were four or five I really well done adoption

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_01]: films I'm not talking about all the little documentaries that people do that are adopted these

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_01]: and stuff birth parents but the one was returned to soul as in soul South Korea I don't know

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_01]: so but um to me it was the best film on adoption ever because what it what it did

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_01]: was tell this girl's story about searching for a birth mother but it also allowed room for character

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_01]: development because pardon my French you know a lot of crap goes on over time which can seem like

[00:48:46] [SPEAKER_01]: eternity when you're an adopty these different stages of growth and pain and it seems to never go away

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_01]: most of the other films although fantastic you know like secrets and lies by Michaelie

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01]: and Philomena and and and the lion I think it was called and stuff like that great great film

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_01]: screen adoption stories but they kind of jump from here's an adopted and then here he is

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_01]: is a drug addict because he can't cope with life or it's genetic from me inherited from a parent

[00:49:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you know he kills himself or something ridiculous like that whereas this film return to

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_01]: soul they allowed all this room for character development so they there was a big part in the middle

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_01]: of the film where they they showed her go through different stages of growth of pain and

[00:49:37] [SPEAKER_01]: realisation and transformation which is I think key but um so just I got out of unattanging there

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_01]: but just to reel it back in I just think it's important the education uh yeah of this in society

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_00]: totally and the the other question I was the pottings when I had a little bit earlier on

[00:50:00] [SPEAKER_00]: because you obviously talking about around us I was wondering who do you who do you listen to now

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_00]: or who who's books do you read now or are you preferred the more kind of the the cinema in

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_00]: the films is that when what what what's what's happening at the moment what's what's inspiring

[00:50:23] [SPEAKER_01]: you know it's a good question um so I both I like both I mean I'm I love going to the

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_01]: the cinema I'm a big film person I used to be a film producer but uh the books I often reread

[00:50:42] [SPEAKER_01]: the same books that I highlight for years um occasionally there's a new one I should do

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_01]: but you know the books that I read that I lean on are Wayne Dyer from DOS of course

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_01]: the primary one stuff by Nancy Varier there's a guy named Leo Biscalia

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_01]: book in particular living loving and learning yeah Ethan and Staxram my bedside

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_01]: go things like that you know there's a sort of their psychological and nature but they're

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_01]: also spiritual and the combination of the two I find for me personally most helpful and rewarding

[00:51:35] [SPEAKER_01]: because I relate to that and there are two sides of those two sides of us which always to me need work

[00:51:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and help some fantastic thanks Craig the pleasure is mine thank you for having me and

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_00]: thank you for doing this important work your podcast I'm you know I'm you know the the

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_00]: we're reaching outside the world of a a top two world it's kind of bit it's more on my mind at the moment

[00:52:12] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm I'm doing more I've got a concerted effort to build more relationships with

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_00]: adoption agencies to get involved in both pre and post-dedoption right so that's but that's

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_00]: my main focus but there's another kind of it sort of podcast and then the speaking bit

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and then the third bit that's that's a distant third is that education piece outside

[00:52:49] [SPEAKER_00]: outside that piece and I'm trying to think of how I can do that and how I can support others

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_00]: doing that right so it's not just it's not just about me you know we're trying to lift

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_00]: everybody lift everybody up so don't so that was great thanks thanks a lot oh one last question

[00:53:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't I'm asked this for a while but does does anything come to mind in terms of what this

[00:53:25] [SPEAKER_00]: this episode of the podcast could be called a title of the podcast yeah well there's a there's a book

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I forgot who wrote I think it's three therapists on adoption I think it's called the lifelong journey

[00:53:47] [SPEAKER_01]: to self and something like that I also want I'm a big believer in pre-imperionate of psychology

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_01]: there's a book called Babies Remember Birth by Dr Chamberlain which I'm really big on but

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that's not answer your question I forgot to mention that um well something along the lines of

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_01]: you know with these concepts and I'm like there's hope it's not easy it's a lifelong journey

[00:54:24] [SPEAKER_00]: education I will have to leave it to you to come up with some well the one that

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_00]: come from me with you know the bit of the piece from your words right so taking your words rather than

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_00]: coming up with my own was like lightning the load hmm okay that works that's a good title yeah

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_00]: that's a good time cool all right yeah thanks listeners thanks Drake and we'll speech you

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_00]: thank you Simon be well