Lightening Up With Jennifer Dyan Ghoston

[00:00:00] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast today I'm delighted

[00:00:07] to be joined by Jennifer, Jennifer, Diane, Ghoston. Notting forward to our conversation today,

[00:00:12] Jennifer, so much. I am too, Simon, thank you for having me back. Thank you. This is this is the

[00:00:22] lady with the most velvety voice that we ever have on the show, right? It's so kind, far too kind,

[00:00:30] thank you. So I just share my truth. So Jennifer, healing, da, da, da, what does it mean to you?

[00:00:42] Well, let me just first say that my right brain wanted to have some fun because you know how

[00:00:54] you used to say and you probably still do listeners I have a treat for you today, right? And I said

[00:01:02] I have to have a treat for Simon. So I spent a couple days thinking about coming up for your,

[00:01:13] what is this healing framework? Turning the word healing into an acronym, right?

[00:01:20] Ah, okay, we like that. Yeah. So for H we have help, E we have evaluate. Actually I like

[00:01:29] experiment better because I was listening to your episode today with Heather, G. Marshville.

[00:01:37] I really like her. Thank you for putting us together because she and I had a lovely conversation

[00:01:43] the other day and I listened to both of the episodes and she loves that word experiment. So we got help,

[00:01:49] experiment, appreciate. These are all verbs, right? Listen, investigate, navigate and grow.

[00:02:06] And I figured out that's why healing is going to be a lifelong journey or adventure for me

[00:02:15] because all, all those words I just gave you, seven of them, spell out healing and that's what it

[00:02:25] means to me. I can apply that to pretty much any and everything on a daily basis because I like to think

[00:02:33] I'm always in this healing mold, we're interested in healing and that's what I would say it represents.

[00:02:42] Yeah. Do you know where the name thriving adoptees came from?

[00:02:50] You may have told me, tell me again. So because I love an acronym, right? I love an acronym.

[00:02:56] So it came, I had this idea of my head for thrive and making thrive an acronym.

[00:03:06] So it was T for trauma informed, H for healing obsessed. After realizing our resilience,

[00:03:19] I forget clarity on our identity, V for vision for the future and E for empowering others.

[00:03:34] Oh yeah, like that. If I heard it, I don't recall but I like that.

[00:03:40] I don't know if I've shared that before. So yeah, I love an acronym. So which is your favorite

[00:03:50] out of your acronym, your seven acronym healing? Which is your favorite? Which is your right brain

[00:04:00] than which is your favorite? No, I like how you phrase that. My right brain, yeah, because my right

[00:04:06] would say something different than my left. For sure. So for my right, I would say

[00:04:16] experiment. Yeah. Yeah. So what experiments do you mean?

[00:04:30] So when I think of that word and I really have to give had the credit because when she shared it

[00:04:35] with me the other day when we were on the phone, I thought absolutely. Like you don't have to take

[00:04:44] things so seriously. You know, you can just kind of experiment, like just see what happens and

[00:04:53] and I'll use my podcast as an example.

[00:04:57] I had no idea, listen to podcasts but I had no idea of what it would be like to be a

[00:05:06] podcast there. And looking back, thinking back to 2021, like in the very beginning,

[00:05:17] it was an experiment. It really was because I had to learn the equipment, right?

[00:05:27] I ordered the mic, I ordered the recorder, I watched YouTube videos, I read a book,

[00:05:36] a very good book and I listened to other podcasters with a different ear.

[00:05:42] But it was fun, learning was fun, growing, right and navigating my way and investigating

[00:05:55] like what to do next. It was an experiment. Yeah. And it failed, right? Like in when I say fail,

[00:06:04] I mean if I realized 20 or 30 episodes in that it wasn't a good fit,

[00:06:14] I could just stop. Because I did learn back then that most podcasters don't get to 100 episodes.

[00:06:23] Did you know that? No, I didn't know.

[00:06:27] Yeah.

[00:06:32] So what's the opposite of experiment?

[00:06:42] I don't know, not trying it, not trying something

[00:06:47] and not giving it a go.

[00:06:53] So how does that relate to healing? Is it other than it being the E of healing?

[00:07:11] I mean taking things less seriously. The thing that flips to my head comes into my mind straight

[00:07:21] away from that is taking trauma less seriously. So I came up with this idea.

[00:07:30] There's these dark metaphors in the adoptee space and the trauma space. The brine will wound,

[00:07:43] it's dark, it's scary, it's black. The body keeps the score, right? The body keeps the score

[00:07:50] and the body is going to settle its score with you Simon. The body is going to settle the score

[00:07:57] with you, Jennifer. It's just waiting for when you're not on guard and it's going to jump on

[00:08:05] you and scare the bejesus out of you. That sounds like the left brain.

[00:08:11] Yeah, that sounds very left-brain, you know, but it takes things seriously.

[00:08:18] I came up with this idea of I was thinking about schools and I came up with soccer schools,

[00:08:24] right? So I came up with this idea of trauma one, adoptees united 10.

[00:08:32] So trauma scores first as we know, pre-verbal trauma or that,

[00:08:37] that, that, that, that. Yeah, but by coming together as a team, yeah. So adoptees united,

[00:08:43] the word united means coming together as a team and it's 10-1. So we're coming together

[00:08:50] and we're, as Americans might say, whooping traumas ass, you know, because we've,

[00:08:58] we've, those go first but and they're at home, right? Trauma's at home. The first,

[00:09:07] the first team's name to appear is the one that's at home. So we've won away from home.

[00:09:13] So that makes it even better and and it puts a little bit of lightness into,

[00:09:20] into the idea in a world that is just full of darkness. You know, I was interviewed and

[00:09:29] had you come across Anna Ginger, would you come across? She's got this podcast and so she,

[00:09:38] she asked me to come on a podcast and she was still in her podcast, I'm sorry.

[00:09:45] It's called the Anna Ginger Show, I think it's called the Anna Ginger Show, yeah. And she,

[00:09:51] she sent me this poem, she sent me this, this poem so part of our conversation was about this

[00:09:59] and the poem was just a hundred percent darkness. There was no light,

[00:10:07] there was no light, there was no shade, it was just trauma all the way and I said to her,

[00:10:15] look, I can't come on the show, I can't come on your show if you know, I had a visceral reaction

[00:10:22] to reading her plan because it was all dark and we're taking things too seriously and

[00:10:31] and yeah, we've got to take it, but like if we could just lighten up, right? If we could just

[00:10:38] lighten up. And so I heard this fantastic thing a couple of months ago, right? The fact that

[00:10:46] that many people are looking for enlightenment, right? They're looking for enlightenment,

[00:10:55] but we don't need to look for enlightenment because we are the light. We are the light

[00:11:02] and that light has been endarkened by our trauma. So our trauma has hidden us, it hasn't hurt us.

[00:11:16] And enlightenment means going outside into the world, whereas realizing and it's going to take some

[00:11:23] time, it's going to be a journey and all this stuff and then it's going to be tricky. But

[00:11:29] oh right, if we realize that we are the light and that light has been endarkened,

[00:11:37] that happens in that realization can hit us in a moment.

[00:11:43] You know, it's coming up for me. May I share this with you?

[00:11:48] Of course, I'm supposed to be interviewer you and I've just been sharing my stuff for three.

[00:11:55] No, I love it. I think it's great when we can have a conversation and yeah, I call it plan catch.

[00:12:02] You know, I throw you the ball, you throw me the ball. I think that's great but what's coming

[00:12:06] up for me now is one of the guests you had on Jill, Bolti Taylor who talks about the left

[00:12:15] and the right hemisphere. And I tell you that episode as I told you, I listened to three times.

[00:12:25] I took four pages maybe more than maybe a little over more than four pages of notes

[00:12:32] because what she shares in there made it clear to me that this healing is,

[00:12:41] it's when all parts, right? She talks about two characters on the left and our brain two characters

[00:12:50] on the right. And when they can kind of have a brain huddle, she causes it. Then there's

[00:12:55] the opportunity for there to be this whole living as she causes whole brain living.

[00:13:02] The book, the title of her book that I have been reading. And when you ask me that question in

[00:13:11] the beginning about well which one stands out to you? Which out of all of them in the acronym and I said

[00:13:20] experiment, experiment. It was in that moment that I realized we've got to have the right brain

[00:13:30] being able to participate, right? It's important because the left brain can kind of take over for

[00:13:38] me. Sometimes it's like okay do this, do that. This is how things are going to work you need to be

[00:13:46] on time. You name it. The right brain is kind of like well let's just see, let's have a little fun.

[00:13:56] Let's play and entertain ideas where healing can is doable and we will be fine.

[00:14:05] So I think it's important when we think about healing to think about how the left and right brain

[00:14:19] interface, like that's a big part of it. And if your listeners haven't

[00:14:26] checked that episode out, I highly recommend it. I think it should be required listening.

[00:14:31] It's really, you did a really great job and Jill Bolte Taylor is amazing with what she shares on

[00:14:42] that episode. So the link will be in the show notes listeners to the interview and she's

[00:14:49] she's a neuro, neuro, neuro anatomist, she calls her. She had a left brain stroke and she lost all

[00:14:58] self-criticism. That's it, that's it in two sentences and there's a lot more to it than that.

[00:15:10] I love your word entertain ideas. You talked about entertaining ideas. So you know that I'm doing

[00:15:19] working on this trauma framework at the moment and one of the ideas that I, well one of the beliefs

[00:15:36] that's come out of that is that some people don't believe that they can heal.

[00:15:43] They don't believe some adoptees that answer that questioner. Don't believe that they can heal.

[00:15:54] So I would say what if we could entertain that idea?

[00:16:04] In the right side, the right side of the brain is probably the one that would be more

[00:16:09] willing, willing and open. Yes, open. Yes, open.

[00:16:20] Suggestible. I just recently listened to a podcast where two, well the guest was an MD I believe

[00:16:33] and he was talking about the left and right brain. And I thought, yes, he said,

[00:16:41] the right brain, the right side is very interested in entertaining the left side.

[00:16:49] It's the left side that's not too interested in entertaining the right side.

[00:16:54] I was like, yeah, I think so.

[00:17:01] Yeah, so open. Open.

[00:17:07] Curious, right? And coachable, right? So I coachable open, you know, like open

[00:17:16] and the space, you know, the space creating the, creating the space for a new idea,

[00:17:27] creating the space or being the space. Being the space for, being the space for

[00:17:38] for a new idea. I heard this listening to a, I listened to a

[00:17:50] Gabbard Matte, I bought an online course and it's got videos and audios.

[00:17:59] And he asked a great question on something that was listening to yesterday with him.

[00:18:07] How, how he said about himself, how loyal am I to my trauma?

[00:18:17] How loyal am I to my trauma? Like how, how loyal are we? You know, what's, you know,

[00:18:25] and we can, we can play with that. We could put that with the football analogy, couldn't we?

[00:18:32] The soccer analogy about, yeah. Well, could we could make it about trauma one healing 10, right?

[00:18:43] Which team are we rooting for? Which team are we loyal to?

[00:18:49] Like and it's just like a little bit about glimmer. It's like, you know, like when you,

[00:18:57] you remember when, when you were losing your baby teeth and they wobbled before.

[00:19:04] Oh yeah. Yeah. So if we look at a belief such as we can't heal or such as we can,

[00:19:19] oh yeah, or we can only heal in reunion. Or we can't heal if we find out our birth mother's

[00:19:28] dad when then, then we can't heal. We can't, you know, whatever the belief will be, right?

[00:19:33] What if it's like, if it's like a tooth and we can, we can just start to wobble the baby tooth.

[00:19:42] Right. We're just wobbling the baby tooth. We're not, we're trying on a new idea.

[00:19:48] We're entertaining, usual, we're entertaining a new idea. We're, we're entertaining the belief that

[00:19:58] we may be wrong. How, how willing are we to be wrong? How much do we think we've got the whole thing

[00:20:10] worked out? We've wobbled that tooth a little bit and eventually it's going to drop out.

[00:20:25] You got me thinking about when it would be loose and sometimes a bit painful and then

[00:20:34] the candidate, that moment, right? Where it just got it out of there or it just slowly came out. Like,

[00:20:44] I look up, oh, it's out. Just kind of revisiting. Yeah. You might not even notice it's out to the

[00:20:51] spotter on the floor, but you spot it on the, yeah. And then you've got to leave it under your pillow

[00:20:56] and, and wait for you. Your mom to give you 10 pay or whatever it was. 10 cents.

[00:21:07] I was trying to remember how much was it a quarter. Yeah.

[00:21:16] You taking me way back was going way way back. Yeah.

[00:21:21] Yeah. The, the experiment goes with investigate as well, doesn't it? If I'm looking at your acronym,

[00:21:32] investigate, it's like, okay, am I going to, am I, am I going to investigate this? What

[00:21:40] is truth? Is that what you're talking about? Invest.

[00:21:44] By investigate, I mean just look into whatever it is a little bit closer. You know, these words

[00:21:59] as a matter of fact that I chose have a lot to do with what I hear when I have a guest on my podcast

[00:22:08] or in the adoption community. These words come up a lot. Navigate, listening of course,

[00:22:17] appreciate and investigate comes up quite a bit too. It's up there with curiosity. That's

[00:22:25] another one that comes up a lot in conversations that I have with my guests. They say them, I say them

[00:22:33] and I just kind of made the connection that these are some words that kind of can apply in all kinds

[00:22:43] of situations. It feels to me that investigate, just means just check it out a little bit more.

[00:22:54] You mentioned that you're coming across adoptees that say they cannot heal. Is that what you said?

[00:23:03] And I would just throw on there yet, right? YET. Like yet

[00:23:12] might be where they're really coming from because I think sometimes when we are and I certainly have

[00:23:20] been stuck or just didn't have enough answers did not know enough information like prior to getting

[00:23:30] my original birth certificate. I had no clue but really anything. I was told I was given

[00:23:40] the name Bonnie at birth, but I didn't know if that was really true or not until I saw that name on

[00:23:46] my birth certificate. So there was plenty of times in my life where I just didn't have answers,

[00:23:55] there was felt a bit stuck when I hit brick walls. I remember requesting information from

[00:24:08] Illinois and being told no, you can't add that information.

[00:24:15] Do you know what Bonnie means?

[00:24:16] I've heard sweet spirit tell me what is it mean?

[00:24:28] Well, it's a phrase. It's an adjective that's usually used north of the border so it's used in

[00:24:35] Scotland rather than England. They'll refer to Bonnie Scotland, which means pretty.

[00:24:44] Oh. Yeah, Bonnie means, Bonnie means pretty. That's quite nice. Yeah.

[00:24:53] I've heard that. Thank you. I appreciate that. I've heard sweet spirit many years ago

[00:25:02] but I like that name. I actually really like Bonnie.

[00:25:06] Yeah. I was thinking about the investigate and the experiment thing and you're talking about it

[00:25:15] looking at it in different contexts. I was thinking about the therapeutic,

[00:25:24] like looking for a therapy, looking for a therapy, looking for a therapist.

[00:25:31] I can get with that, but sure. So I think I've just started with a new therapist and she's

[00:25:45] somatic. She's a somatic. So I'm investigating a new form, a new modality because

[00:25:59] I'm looking for the bit that's pre-verbal. I'm looking for the stuff that I can't see because it's in my

[00:26:11] bones, the best of Andy Colster. I'm looking at that and that's off the back of

[00:26:21] all the therapists that came on thriving adoptees last year that took the said, but you know,

[00:26:29] so most of us are doing talk therapy. Talk therapy doesn't work if you can't put your trauma

[00:26:37] into words because it's pre-verbal and pre-memory, pre-cognitive.

[00:26:44] So investigate, experiment a different thing. So I'm also I'm going on a

[00:26:57] Kathie McKekney who's been on the show. She is into part, I think she's into parts work.

[00:27:05] Yeah, she's into parts work. So I'm doing a webinar with her, you know like I'm going

[00:27:11] on to attend her webinar for three hours next week on Saturday or something like that. So I'm

[00:27:19] investigating and exploring different things and rather than the opposite of experiment is

[00:27:29] thinking, it's pinning all our hopes on one thing, right? So on one thing that we might do as

[00:27:39] adoptees, we might say, right, okay, I'm going to put all my eggs in one basket and that basket

[00:27:50] is reunion. So I'm finding my biological mother is going to heal me, it's going to make me whole

[00:28:00] and that's the only thing that's going to cut the mustard. That's the only thing that's

[00:28:07] that's the difference that's going to make the difference. That's being attached to an outcome.

[00:28:12] I'm being attached to the outcome and we don't know what the outcome is going to be.

[00:28:20] So we're barking up the wrong tree, we could be barking up the wrong tree, we might not be,

[00:28:26] we might get the dream and we might get the dream outcome.

[00:28:33] Yeah, that's the nice thing.

[00:28:39] Yeah, I apologize for interrupting you but that's when I suffer

[00:28:44] when I'm attached to an outcome.

[00:28:49] Yeah. You want to touch the outcome with the podcast, right?

[00:28:55] No.

[00:28:58] No, not at all. Yeah, I truly think I suffer when I

[00:29:06] attach to the outcome and over-invested in things turning out a certain way.

[00:29:16] Yeah, back to that word open. I like to remain open. I like to think I remain open to

[00:29:23] how it is going to turn out. You know, kind of like that word adventure.

[00:29:31] I just love that word because when I think of an adventure

[00:29:38] you kind of don't know exactly how it's going to go but you're along for the ride.

[00:29:45] Yeah. And most adventures, we read a book or we watch a film

[00:29:54] the adventure has two things going on, doesn't it? It's the heroes two journeys.

[00:30:05] So the external journey, what's happening in the world, what's happening with our birth

[00:30:11] parents, what's happening with our adopted parents, what's happening with our relationships,

[00:30:15] what's happening with our partners, what's happening with our podcasts,

[00:30:19] what's happening with our businesses, and then there's the internal stuff is what's going on

[00:30:24] on the inside and seeing the difference between the two.

[00:30:31] Yeah. And how many times have you watched a movie

[00:30:36] and it ended unlike you could have predicted?

[00:30:40] And a lot of times those are the best movies.

[00:30:48] When you can't predict what's going to happen, a lot of people will say that

[00:30:52] all this was predictable or I didn't see that coming with a big smile.

[00:31:03] Yeah. I watched the other day like that. I was like that was cool.

[00:31:09] And it would predict that.

[00:31:14] Yeah. Well, left phrase wouldn't like that.

[00:31:21] Not at all. That's why I wanted to bring that into this conversation. Thank you for allowing me

[00:31:25] to do that because I think Jill Boltee Taylor nailed it. She kept it plain

[00:31:34] that it's worth knowing the difference between how parts of our brain are operating

[00:31:43] and just get curious, investigate what's going on up there.

[00:31:52] Yeah. So what stops us investigating?

[00:31:59] Say that again. What stops us investigating?

[00:32:03] What stops us? The unfamiliar I would say

[00:32:14] not sure what you're going to uncover, what you're going to find in your investigation.

[00:32:24] I think fear plays a big part when we don't remain open

[00:32:32] when we don't necessarily look to learn something new or to even grow.

[00:32:43] Yeah, I think sometimes it can be scary to do something different than what you've been doing.

[00:32:52] I just have enough lived experience to know it's usually worked out pretty good.

[00:32:59] Yeah, it's usually my investigation usually proves to be worth taking the chance.

[00:33:07] And I recently was reminded that I don't know if it was a study or I don't know some research

[00:33:16] that had been done that when people get to the end of their life, they don't regret like the things

[00:33:22] they did wrong or could have done differently. They regret the things that they didn't try,

[00:33:29] that they didn't investigate, that they didn't look into.

[00:33:36] Yeah. I heard that. Another word came to mind as if you were talking and that word was fruitful.

[00:33:45] Yeah, like your explorations have born fruit.

[00:33:52] Yeah.

[00:33:59] Did I tell you about bringing my biological dad? Did I tell you about that?

[00:34:06] A little bit.

[00:34:08] Yeah, so that was an experiment.

[00:34:14] And I had his phone number for about eight months.

[00:34:28] And I'd not run in.

[00:34:34] I didn't phone about any of the address.

[00:34:36] And then I was talking to somebody, a fellow adoptee about this.

[00:34:43] And I just thought, and he said, this guy,

[00:34:54] Colin, he's got pseudonym for writing books.

[00:34:59] And so Colin said,

[00:35:05] I said, I said, well, Ray, I both father's name is Ray.

[00:35:12] Ray didn't want to have anything to do with my biological mom when she

[00:35:22] told them that she was pregnant.

[00:35:28] And as I was sharing that with Colin, Colin said, he might have changed his mind.

[00:35:38] So I thought, yeah, he might have changed his mind.

[00:35:44] But let's see shall we?

[00:35:47] Right.

[00:35:51] And he hadn't changed his mind.

[00:35:58] It wasn't interested, but I'm laughing about it.

[00:36:06] I'm not crying in my point as we would say.

[00:36:16] There wasn't anything writing on it.

[00:36:20] Right. How do you think you were able to do that?

[00:36:24] May I ask?

[00:36:26] Well, because I wasn't attached to the outcome

[00:36:36] to use your thing.

[00:36:37] Because I kind of realised it was a long shot.

[00:36:41] OK.

[00:36:42] I guess.

[00:36:44] And because I hadn't got a running.

[00:36:46] So a few years ago,

[00:36:50] I used to do a program with a coach at the start of each year.

[00:36:56] And it's called creating the impossible.

[00:37:00] This is a guy called Michael Neon on the West Cups of the state.

[00:37:07] And so he runs this process.

[00:37:09] And the kind of the idea of creating the impossible

[00:37:14] is that you pick something,

[00:37:18] that you truly think you've only got like a 1% chance

[00:37:24] of doing.

[00:37:29] So the pressure of your expectations

[00:37:33] are gone.

[00:37:35] And you're expecting,

[00:37:38] the name says it all creating the impossible.

[00:37:42] You try and to create something

[00:37:44] that you think is actually impossible.

[00:37:48] So you can go all out.

[00:37:50] Right.

[00:37:53] You haven't got yourself a steam riding on the outcome.

[00:38:03] You don't need things to turn out the way that you dream.

[00:38:09] They might turn out.

[00:38:12] Right.

[00:38:14] You can go all in.

[00:38:19] If fear, I said what stops as experiments

[00:38:23] and use the word fear.

[00:38:24] Right?

[00:38:25] So there's this,

[00:38:27] you don't need to fear it anymore.

[00:38:31] Because you don't need to fear it,

[00:38:32] because you've set out.

[00:38:37] That reminds me of a quote I've heard plenty of people say that

[00:38:41] like what would you do if you knew you wouldn't fail?

[00:38:48] Yeah.

[00:38:49] Yeah, exactly.

[00:38:50] It's the same thing.

[00:38:51] It's exactly the long list, right?

[00:38:55] Yeah.

[00:38:56] What would you do if you'd go?

[00:38:58] Yeah.

[00:39:00] But our insecurity stops us doing that sort of stuff.

[00:39:05] Some people could say that some people could say

[00:39:08] that that's a trauma response.

[00:39:09] I don't know whether it is or not,

[00:39:10] but you could definitely pin the tail on that donkey.

[00:39:20] You know, I revisited our conversation.

[00:39:22] Actually, it aired a year ago today.

[00:39:27] I love synchronous.

[00:39:29] Yeah, April 30th, 2020.

[00:39:31] Wow.

[00:39:32] It's not a day.

[00:39:34] Yeah.

[00:39:34] Can you believe it?

[00:39:35] Yeah, it was a year ago today.

[00:39:38] And a couple of things that stood out

[00:39:41] that I want to mention.

[00:39:44] And one was your mention of Wayne Dyer.

[00:39:48] You know, when he went to the gray side of his father

[00:39:52] and I think we talked a little more about Wayne Dyer.

[00:39:56] And it's interesting because he's kind of my mentor online.

[00:40:01] I've been pulling up podcasts.

[00:40:04] Of course, he's transitioned but his podcasts

[00:40:08] and his voice is still very much out there.

[00:40:13] And I was thinking about that quote, right?

[00:40:16] This...

[00:40:16] Then you've probably heard it that he says

[00:40:20] when you change the way you look at things,

[00:40:23] the things you look at change.

[00:40:28] Yeah.

[00:40:28] And I love that quote because

[00:40:34] with the words I gave,

[00:40:38] but the acronym,

[00:40:41] healing,

[00:40:44] all of that applies.

[00:40:46] Like, if you just apply those words,

[00:40:48] it applies to pretty much anything

[00:40:52] you might be interested in.

[00:40:57] And I think that you're like,

[00:41:00] hmm, how do I want to put this?

[00:41:05] It ultimately ends up changing the way you look at things.

[00:41:10] Yeah, it just really does.

[00:41:15] The things themselves actually end up changing.

[00:41:18] And I didn't say, I couldn't recall the title of the book

[00:41:23] the last time I was here

[00:41:25] by him, your erroneous zones.

[00:41:28] I had to be like maybe in the seventh grade.

[00:41:31] My mother was a librarian and she brought books

[00:41:33] like this home all the time.

[00:41:36] And that's when I would be first introduced

[00:41:38] to Wayne Dyer.

[00:41:39] Except for your listeners,

[00:41:41] the book I put in I recall

[00:41:43] a year or so ago

[00:41:44] with your own feelings.

[00:41:47] Yeah, so it's your erroneous zones,

[00:41:50] not your erogenous zones.

[00:41:51] That's the that's the play there.

[00:41:54] Right.

[00:41:55] Erroneous.

[00:41:56] Erroneous.

[00:41:57] Yeah, you're so it's the

[00:42:00] areas where our beliefs are off

[00:42:05] where we are.

[00:42:06] Yeah, we are mistaken.

[00:42:09] He made

[00:42:12] that guy

[00:42:14] Wayne Dyer made a huge shift halfway

[00:42:17] towards the end of his career

[00:42:20] from a

[00:42:22] pretty psychological approach to a more spiritual approach.

[00:42:28] He was very much in 60s, he was very much,

[00:42:32] he was there.

[00:42:34] As far as I can get out of that,

[00:42:36] you know, he was at the forefront of my positive

[00:42:39] thinking and mindset stuff.

[00:42:43] But he

[00:42:45] he he he

[00:42:46] he tried yeah, he moved

[00:42:48] he moved into the spiritual world.

[00:42:54] I don't know how well he

[00:42:59] communicated that.

[00:43:03] Well it's interesting you would say that

[00:43:04] because I was listening to an

[00:43:06] an episode

[00:43:09] yesterday or today.

[00:43:10] I think it was

[00:43:12] yeah, it was this morning

[00:43:14] where he was talking about

[00:43:16] he did not at one time believe in past lives.

[00:43:22] Then he got acquainted with Brian

[00:43:25] Weiss

[00:43:27] and I'm familiar with his work.

[00:43:29] He

[00:43:31] wrote

[00:43:33] a number of books on past lives.

[00:43:37] Anyway,

[00:43:38] Wayne

[00:43:39] Dyer was saying that his relationship with Brian

[00:43:42] reading the books

[00:43:44] that he's had a shift

[00:43:46] which would suggest

[00:43:48] that he was just open.

[00:43:50] He was open to learning

[00:43:53] more

[00:43:54] Yeah, so yeah, it's interesting you would say that

[00:43:57] yeah, I could see

[00:43:58] he made a

[00:43:59] if he made a shift

[00:44:00] I think it

[00:44:02] I think it's kind of known

[00:44:04] and I think that he

[00:44:09] he started championing other

[00:44:11] championing other people.

[00:44:14] Right, like maybe like Brian Weiss

[00:44:18] but the one the big one that comes to my mind

[00:44:20] is Anita Mojane.

[00:44:23] Have you heard of her?

[00:44:25] I think so.

[00:44:26] So

[00:44:28] Anita Mojane had a near death experience

[00:44:32] and she wrote about it in a book called

[00:44:35] dying to be me

[00:44:37] and it's a big you know,

[00:44:40] it's a big bestselling book

[00:44:41] and Wayne Dyer championed that.

[00:44:45] Okay

[00:44:47] The title does ring a bell

[00:44:49] now it's time to be me

[00:44:51] dying to be me

[00:44:52] so she has a near death experience

[00:44:54] and it's similar to

[00:44:55] it was a

[00:44:57] it was

[00:44:58] similar to

[00:45:00] GeoBotty Taylor

[00:45:01] in that it was a medical thing

[00:45:05] but

[00:45:06] Anita Mojane

[00:45:07] was

[00:45:10] she was end of life

[00:45:11] end of life with cancer

[00:45:13] and she had a spontaneous healing

[00:45:18] experience

[00:45:20] and

[00:45:23] it was

[00:45:24] it showed her who she was

[00:45:27] in terms of

[00:45:28] she had a lived experience

[00:45:30] you use the word lived experience

[00:45:32] earlier on

[00:45:32] I think it's really important

[00:45:34] she had a lived experience

[00:45:36] of

[00:45:38] connecting

[00:45:39] well

[00:45:41] being consciousness

[00:45:42] you know

[00:45:43] being aware

[00:45:45] of

[00:45:48] her

[00:45:48] what some people

[00:45:49] might call a spiritual essence

[00:45:52] being her

[00:45:53] the part of us that's

[00:45:57] unconditioned

[00:45:58] by

[00:45:59] that

[00:46:00] consciousness, awareness, spirit being

[00:46:03] that stuff

[00:46:05] which is a similar sort of thing

[00:46:07] to

[00:46:08] GeoBotty Taylor

[00:46:09] you know

[00:46:09] the essence of who we are

[00:46:11] the

[00:46:12] and

[00:46:13] pre

[00:46:17] the blank

[00:46:18] the blank canvas

[00:46:20] on which

[00:46:22] our personality

[00:46:23] values our beliefs

[00:46:24] our trauma

[00:46:25] appears

[00:46:30] yeah

[00:46:30] Anita Mojane

[00:46:32] so

[00:46:33] shifting gears slightly

[00:46:35] what would you say

[00:46:36] have been the most

[00:46:38] significant

[00:46:40] healing things

[00:46:42] for you in

[00:46:43] the last year since

[00:46:45] you

[00:46:50] you

[00:46:52] you know

[00:46:54] it's interesting that the

[00:46:55] podcast

[00:46:57] has really

[00:47:01] played a major part

[00:47:04] in healing

[00:47:05] and feeling

[00:47:06] a sense of healing

[00:47:08] listening to

[00:47:10] stories

[00:47:13] from

[00:47:14] all members of the constellation

[00:47:16] but probably primarily

[00:47:19] from adaptees

[00:47:21] I've learned so much

[00:47:23] and I think a close second

[00:47:25] would be

[00:47:26] the adaptive voices writing group

[00:47:29] it has been

[00:47:31] we finished up

[00:47:32] three years

[00:47:35] this March

[00:47:37] and I think that

[00:47:40] I could have never predicted

[00:47:42] how healing that would be

[00:47:43] to listen to

[00:47:45] adaptees

[00:47:47] read aloud

[00:47:48] their words

[00:47:51] and share

[00:47:51] to the extent

[00:47:53] that they do

[00:47:55] and adaptive voices

[00:47:57] as you know

[00:47:58] created by Sarah

[00:47:59] Easterly

[00:48:00] and I co-facilitate

[00:48:03] with Kate Murphy

[00:48:05] and also Alice Stevens

[00:48:07] and that's been

[00:48:08] so

[00:48:09] healing

[00:48:12] yeah

[00:48:13] it

[00:48:15] has been wonderful

[00:48:16] and going back to

[00:48:19] experiment

[00:48:22] that's exactly what

[00:48:24] I was taking on

[00:48:27] when Sarah invited me

[00:48:28] to co-facilitate

[00:48:29] I had no idea

[00:48:31] what I was really getting into

[00:48:34] I really didn't

[00:48:39] I guess one of the things

[00:48:40] I really want to leave

[00:48:42] the listeners with

[00:48:43] especially any

[00:48:44] adoptee that feels like they

[00:48:48] can't heal

[00:48:50] won't heal

[00:48:51] I throw the word

[00:48:52] yet on the end of that

[00:48:54] and I would suggest

[00:48:59] we say

[00:48:59] curious all the time

[00:49:03] and you know

[00:49:03] I'm throwing these other words in

[00:49:05] write investigate

[00:49:06] and remain open

[00:49:08] and

[00:49:10] and maybe

[00:49:13] let's use that word help

[00:49:17] I find when I help other people

[00:49:19] which I feel like

[00:49:20] I play a part in

[00:49:22] with the podcast

[00:49:23] with the writing group

[00:49:26] that's a component of healing

[00:49:30] and I believe my guest

[00:49:33] each and every one that has said

[00:49:35] I hope I can help somebody else

[00:49:37] by sharing my story

[00:49:38] I think that's a component of their healing

[00:49:46] why do you think that

[00:49:49] works

[00:49:51] well they've said it

[00:49:52] they said I feel

[00:49:53] I feel good being able to

[00:49:55] oh okay sorry wrong question

[00:49:57] how do you think helping

[00:50:00] how do you think helping

[00:50:01] feels

[00:50:01] how do I think helping

[00:50:03] is a part of healing

[00:50:08] hmm I think the best way to say it is

[00:50:10] there's something about

[00:50:13] being in a position to give

[00:50:17] taking the opportunity to give

[00:50:21] and this could be anything

[00:50:22] it could be helping your neighbor across the street

[00:50:27] something about that feels really good

[00:50:32] most people describe

[00:50:34] when they've been able to help someone

[00:50:38] maybe just even cross the street

[00:50:42] feels good

[00:50:46] provide information like

[00:50:48] let me ask you

[00:50:50] do you think you're helping

[00:50:53] through the work you're doing in the community

[00:50:56] I hope so

[00:50:58] I think you are

[00:51:00] and I think you think you are

[00:51:02] I think so yeah

[00:51:04] and I think that you

[00:51:06] through that giving that helping

[00:51:10] is healing

[00:51:15] I think it puts the focus on

[00:51:19] on our

[00:51:21] oneness rather

[00:51:23] our it puts the focus on our oneness rather than our

[00:51:27] separation

[00:51:29] puts the focus on togetherness

[00:51:32] well that certainly sounds like helping

[00:51:35] yeah

[00:51:37] you know when you think about

[00:51:43] somebody that's depressed

[00:51:44] they tend to lock themselves away

[00:51:48] isolate yeah

[00:51:49] yeah isolate

[00:51:50] and it's the opposite

[00:51:52] of

[00:51:52] of that

[00:51:53] you know like

[00:51:54] like you're

[00:51:56] so when you talk about adoptive voices

[00:51:58] so the adoptive voices

[00:51:59] is

[00:52:00] that you're co-facilitate

[00:52:01] that's about

[00:52:04] helping adoptive

[00:52:06] right there

[00:52:08] books

[00:52:09] find their voice

[00:52:10] the memoir stuff

[00:52:12] so

[00:52:13] that's what that is all about

[00:52:14] and so everybody's

[00:52:16] everybody's giving

[00:52:18] everybody's giving back

[00:52:20] and paying forward

[00:52:20] and

[00:52:25] you know

[00:52:26] in everybody

[00:52:27] I just want to be clear

[00:52:28] everybody's not

[00:52:29] interested in writing a memoir

[00:52:33] some people are not interested in publishing

[00:52:35] that are part of the group

[00:52:36] like we're entering cohort

[00:52:38] 13

[00:52:39] going into the fourth year

[00:52:42] and

[00:52:43] I think

[00:52:45] the biggest

[00:52:46] part of what goes on

[00:52:48] is community

[00:52:52] fellowship

[00:52:53] in a space

[00:52:57] that feels very safe

[00:52:58] yeah

[00:53:03] and being able to get

[00:53:07] whatever's

[00:53:09] in your head

[00:53:14] like out

[00:53:16] because one thing that's so powerful

[00:53:19] is

[00:53:21] even people writing

[00:53:24] is them reading

[00:53:26] them hearing themselves read

[00:53:30] you know read aloud

[00:53:31] it's

[00:53:34] yeah it's an opportunity to just

[00:53:37] I say invest in oneself

[00:53:41] and know that

[00:53:42] it will be well received

[00:53:44] like the feedback from the other

[00:53:47] adaptees is just wonderful

[00:53:53] and you don't have to explain yourself

[00:53:55] everybody's an adapter

[00:53:57] so

[00:53:58] we get it

[00:54:00] yeah

[00:54:01] and referring back to the

[00:54:04] the

[00:54:05] gavarmarki thing that I'm listening to at the moment

[00:54:07] you sent

[00:54:08] you know like

[00:54:08] it starts with a broken connection

[00:54:12] trauma is about broken connection

[00:54:15] connection with

[00:54:17] ourselves connection with

[00:54:19] others

[00:54:23] and I have some

[00:54:26] I have some

[00:54:30] yeah I have some bits that I'm not

[00:54:33] I'm not sure he's quite clear on

[00:54:36] you know

[00:54:36] connection how can

[00:54:37] our connection with ourselves

[00:54:40] I would say that

[00:54:40] you know

[00:54:41] that our

[00:54:42] that implies too

[00:54:44] how will we you know we can't get in our own way

[00:54:51] I don't

[00:54:53] I question stuff like

[00:54:56] oh

[00:54:57] adoptees tell me

[00:54:59] on their discretion

[00:55:00] he's saying you're questioning that they're

[00:55:02] getting in their own way

[00:55:04] on the healing journey

[00:55:06] no you're not getting in your own way

[00:55:08] you can't get in your own way

[00:55:09] you know try try doing that

[00:55:11] literally try doing that

[00:55:13] you know try walking down

[00:55:15] the the the

[00:55:16] the street

[00:55:17] and get in your own way

[00:55:18] you can't do it there's only one of you

[00:55:20] what's getting in your way

[00:55:22] is is an idea

[00:55:24] is a thought is a is a feeling

[00:55:26] you know

[00:55:28] and you know

[00:55:30] gavars says we you know

[00:55:32] we're connection with ourselves

[00:55:33] well there's only one of us

[00:55:35] you know you can have a connection with yourself

[00:55:38] but you know

[00:55:38] what I

[00:55:41] you as as the light

[00:55:43] is endarkened by our trauma

[00:55:45] so I would say who we are is hidden

[00:55:48] by our trauma

[00:55:51] there's only there's only one others

[00:55:55] but going back to the connection bit

[00:55:58] in terms of a connection with others

[00:56:00] you know it's clearly so

[00:56:03] connection with our

[00:56:06] birth

[00:56:07] mother birth father

[00:56:09] like connection with our adoptive parents

[00:56:12] and if we don't feel connected

[00:56:16] then the connection that we

[00:56:19] feel

[00:56:22] in a group like adoptive voices

[00:56:26] in a conversation

[00:56:30] with a fellow adoptive

[00:56:32] in a conversation with a fellow adoptive

[00:56:35] for an interview for a podcast

[00:56:38] it's all about connection and we

[00:56:40] and

[00:56:42] and that's the that's the healing power

[00:56:49] yeah because

[00:56:50] that's been

[00:56:53] broken

[00:56:54] too young for too many

[00:56:59] yeah

[00:57:01] and I'm glad you mentioned Dr.

[00:57:03] my take because the last time I was here

[00:57:06] I misspoke and I would like an opportunity

[00:57:09] to clear that out is that okay

[00:57:11] of course

[00:57:13] yes I use the word

[00:57:18] acceptance

[00:57:20] and authenticity in that he spoke about it

[00:57:24] if you had to choose one choose authenticity

[00:57:28] I misspoke it's attachment

[00:57:31] and authenticity

[00:57:33] because both of those are huge survival needs

[00:57:39] and at times they may be incompatible

[00:57:45] and so it's important not to

[00:57:48] lose touch with ourselves which is the authenticity piece

[00:57:52] or suppress our gut feeling so that's what

[00:57:56] I should have said

[00:57:58] if you have to choose between attachment

[00:58:02] and authenticity choose authenticity

[00:58:07] thank you yeah that feels like a good place to bring it in

[00:58:15] let a great time with this Simon thank you again for this

[00:58:18] opportunity it is an honor and a privilege

[00:58:23] yeah it is

[00:58:25] for his boat

[00:58:28] thanks listeners we'll speak to you very soon

[00:58:30] to catch bye