Making Friends With Shame Nicky Hammond

[00:00:00] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of The Thriving Adoptees podcast today. I'm delighted

[00:00:07] to be joined by Nikki. Nikki, welcome to Thriving Adoptees looking forward to this conversation

[00:00:12] today. Hello Simon, thanks for having me. So Nikki's down under about 12 hours time difference,

[00:00:20] roughly time 10, 12 hours time difference at the moment. We don't have many Aussies on, so it's

[00:00:25] always a treat. Hopefully, yeah, sure, my funny accent and I didn't say good day or make any

[00:00:37] other G jokes or call you Sheila or anything like these stereotypes. We don't give a castle main

[00:00:44] forex for any of those. So let's be serious. Healing is the Ready More series topic than healing.

[00:00:58] What if we could laugh at our trauma? What does healing mean? That's great, yeah.

[00:01:06] Yeah, here I go again. Here I go again down this trauma tunnel where you only notice it when

[00:01:19] you've come out. Yeah, that's an interesting way to describe it, that's for sure. But yeah, so often

[00:01:28] when you're in the sticky situation and when you're going through that dark tunnel, you don't know

[00:01:32] that you're in there. No, we think it's all right. We've got so accustomed to

[00:01:43] darkness. It becomes our lived experience for a while. Yeah.

[00:01:49] Yeah, and we keep on seeking enlightenment don't we? That's the thing.

[00:01:55] I don't think everyone does, but I think for many of us that's something that

[00:02:01] becomes either interesting or a necessary or you know, I don't know like a kind of mission.

[00:02:10] Who knows why? But there are definitely lots of us and obviously you're on that mission

[00:02:15] for yourself as well as for others which is very cool. Yeah.

[00:02:19] Yeah. The most beautiful thing I heard about this subject is that actually there's no such thing

[00:02:27] as enlightenment. We're already the light, but that light has been endarkened.

[00:02:36] Oh, I think that's true. I think that's true. I think that we come here

[00:02:44] like the purity of being a baby or a child. And then when we talk, because you ask me this question

[00:02:50] to ponder this question, what is healing? And thinking about it in the context of something

[00:02:59] happens to us, something doesn't happen to us. Our body is stressed, our mind or emotions

[00:03:07] or spiritual self gets put into a situation where we don't cope with it in the moment

[00:03:14] and then there's something to heal. So yeah, so as a pure child maybe we have an experience

[00:03:26] the things that need to be healed. Yeah. I was thinking about this the other day

[00:03:35] and I was thinking, well because I was David Anthony Flour before I was Simon Jonathan Ben

[00:03:42] and I was thinking, well, David Anthony Flour. Yeah.

[00:03:51] It wasn't kind of relinquished. It was it's Simon Jonathan Ben that's got the

[00:04:02] that's got the relinquishment trauma. Yeah, it is an interesting thought

[00:04:10] if we think back before adoption and I mean I think even that you know some of the listeners might

[00:04:18] be going, ooh because for me I hadn't thought about being in utero until quite recently like it

[00:04:26] just didn't exist for me. So yeah it's an interesting thought. I think there must be some though

[00:04:33] chemicals and you know experiences that comes from our birth mothers as well in utero. Yeah

[00:04:42] yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so the fetus the fetus that hadn't been named

[00:04:52] yeah or maybe I don't know when she came up with a name for me right but the fetus hadn't

[00:04:57] been named and been named but the fetus was pickled in it was probably pickled in cortisol right?

[00:05:05] Yeah. The strategy is about stress you know that you've got a mother's

[00:05:14] well maybe you can talk about a mother's view on their child and the mother's attachment to their

[00:05:19] child because you're a mum right and I'm not I'm definitely not a mum and I'm I'm also

[00:05:25] happened not to be a dad either. I could never have been but if we look at the experience in utero

[00:05:33] there's some trauma there and I think there's some trauma later on with relinquishment and then

[00:05:42] there may be trauma on top of that trauma in the in the adopted family home but they're built up

[00:05:49] overlays and the the built up over time and we can't we can't distinguish them. I came up with this

[00:05:56] metaphor the other day it's like a latte macchiato right? You know a latte latte latte latte is

[00:06:02] in different sections so if we've got the in utero stress we've got the root-in-chish

[00:06:08] trauma and we've got any trauma that happens after that it's like three different layers of

[00:06:14] of the latte macchiato but that's separated out but in real life they're they're all combined into one

[00:06:24] coffee right? Yes as the one personality or human or your manifestation in that human it's true

[00:06:32] I've read somewhere it was quite interesting I can't remember which book it was but it was a

[00:06:36] specific adoption book and it talked about how when we're if we're relinquished as a baby at a

[00:06:43] very young age what happens when we're so small is that our point of reference is love our point

[00:06:50] of reference is at the bosom of our mother and if we don't have that then growing up we may not

[00:06:56] have a reference for that sense of and I don't even know how to explain that but it is essentially

[00:07:03] like love and nurturing and maternalism that and so sometimes I think from many adoptees

[00:07:14] a lot of us manifest in like people pleasing etc etc and I don't I hate the thought that you know

[00:07:20] I have a counselor and we spit I said to her last time I saw her you know some of them as I wonder

[00:07:27] what it would feel like to be normal she says no no no don't think about it like that there is no

[00:07:30] normal but I still think for us as adoptees who are relinquished as babies it is interesting to

[00:07:36] think about like that stress that happens at that young age of relinquishment and then how it impacts

[00:07:45] like our ongoing development and who we are because we don't have that point of reference and

[00:07:51] it could be true for some of us it could not be true for some of us I don't know to me kind of

[00:07:56] kind of feels true yeah and yeah I think there's so some babies I've taken away from their

[00:08:07] birth mothers in the old you know I'm talking the old thing days right yeah I've talked about the 60

[00:08:14] and I've heard stories from the states where the mother was knocked out with their drugs

[00:08:24] and the baby was so she experienced the delivery and then the baby was never held up

[00:08:32] to her which just whisked away straight off so just they believed that day in those days that

[00:08:39] the bond would be tougher if it had been made first place but you're talking about the bond

[00:08:47] is has been going on for nine months hasn't it yeah well that like yeah you're right because

[00:08:52] and when you say what's it like as a mother is like as a mother doing the research like looking through

[00:08:57] a perspective of you know kind of traditional like pregnancy mothering and I really go into this

[00:09:05] attachment theory I'm thinking about like in Yushiro the sound of the heart the sound of the voice

[00:09:11] the flavors of the food you know I was adopted from South Korea and one of my go-toes is to eat like

[00:09:17] two-minute Korean noodles now that's that's like if I feel sick or you know kind of feeling like I

[00:09:23] need to pick me up like I'm filling down and I kind of think now you know it's an older person

[00:09:29] as a younger person I didn't even know what I tasted like but there's another person like

[00:09:32] ah because that's what you know that flavor that spices what what I was drinking in the universe the flavors

[00:09:40] yeah so it's the taste of home yeah I guess there's something about it

[00:09:47] the sun but then but then having sent out there's trauma I think around language many adoptees

[00:09:53] who are from Korea that I've met have found it really difficult to connect with the language so for me

[00:10:00] I learned French as a young person in high school and my French is quite good and then as a young

[00:10:05] adult because I didn't kind of go through that identity piece or and connect to my original Korean heritage

[00:10:12] until I was maybe 25 and when I started learning the language I got into it I lived there for a year

[00:10:18] half but for some reason I lost and I don't know whether it's like the way our brain works for

[00:10:23] learning languages but I lost all my Korean almost all of it and like but I've retained quite a

[00:10:29] lot of the French so it's so interesting and when I talk to other adoptees who are Korean they say

[00:10:33] oh there's there's definitely a trauma there in order to learn the language so I don't know that's

[00:10:40] the opposite you know I want I want the Korean food but somehow my brain won't hold on to the

[00:10:44] Korean language yeah there's all sorts of clearly all sorts of questions that go on there

[00:10:54] I think the key thing for me the key thing that's worked for me is seeing that you know despite

[00:11:03] and despite these the these layers of trauma so you're you know did you feel that

[00:11:13] well yeah let me finish them despite the the layers of trauma in the in the macchiato glass

[00:11:20] you know those triangular shaped glasses with little tiny glass thumb thung thung and hold us

[00:11:28] with where the glass we're not the trauma yeah so when you talk about healing that's what

[00:11:41] healing is it's like nowhere the glass and so the thing inside let your thing inside of us because

[00:11:47] I believe that it's I think it's a process it's different for all of us and maybe we don't want to

[00:11:54] be a clear empty glass you know maybe that's part of it it's like maybe we could drink the whole

[00:12:00] macchiato or the whole macchiato could be cleaned out and put in the dishwasher but is that honestly

[00:12:06] what we want to do I don't know it's interesting it's an interesting analogy it's I think it's

[00:12:13] me it's just this I mean every every metaphor as it's you know limits right you can stretch any

[00:12:21] metaphor that I come up with people it can always be stretched beyond the limits

[00:12:26] I'm just I'm simply saying that disidentifying from our disidentifying from my trauma was one of the

[00:12:38] most profound and continues to be one of the most profound healing healing healing moments when

[00:12:50] I when I step back and and also recognizing that you know I don't have that you know if the

[00:13:01] the transracial adopt to the the transracial adoption piece can be another and no

[00:13:10] there is a very trauma yeah it can be the chocolate on top yeah it can be but because I don't

[00:13:17] I don't have that in my glass yeah that in my macchiato glass because I was a white

[00:13:24] kid adopted by white parents so yeah but it's still we're still the same glass whatever

[00:13:34] contents whatever the contents are in it and I'm thinking about you know like that and too much

[00:13:41] caffeine you know like too much caffeine yeah can drive us nuts come it with yeah it gets our heart

[00:13:49] it gets our heart racing so there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a strange similarity

[00:13:56] between cortisol and caffeine yeah what the bit interesting yeah yeah that's true but when you say

[00:14:02] the disidentifying with the trauma like for me the healing part was actually identifying it because I

[00:14:09] grew up with a complete rejection self-rejection but absolutely no support whatsoever within my

[00:14:16] family that my adopted family for what that looked like because it was a British mentality of

[00:14:22] like please don't talk about that that doesn't exist as you know and don't you don't need a

[00:14:28] psychologist you've grown up in a loving family that's it so actually for me to identify like oh

[00:14:33] and there was trauma it's like oh I get it now like I wasn't going crazy because I gaslit myself

[00:14:39] into thinking what's wrong with you you've got this an amazing situation what are you what are you

[00:14:45] hungering for and that's the inner that's the inner conflict yeah yeah where part of you is

[00:14:55] uh part of you is is is feeling the love but part of you isn't feeling the love and and that

[00:15:04] the this idea that that that I think all adoptive parents were told back in the day that their love

[00:15:16] will trump our real enrichment but I don't think they learned that it was trauma

[00:15:25] no they didn't know they didn't know because they didn't know because they supported

[00:15:32] yeah and this is I say this a lot at the moment we know we're we are judging

[00:15:41] um 70s parenting on we're judging 20th century parenting on 21st century trauma knowledge

[00:15:54] yeah and and that's and that's the source of our resentment because we're saying they should have

[00:16:02] they should have done better well they they didn't know better so they didn't know better so they

[00:16:09] couldn't do better look I think in some aspects they didn't know better and then in some aspects

[00:16:14] the institutions and the people didn't know better like I think we can't excuse them for all of it

[00:16:20] but you write around the trauma maybe that's true but there are some parts of it that I just think

[00:16:25] look but the institutions were denying it the institutions were denying it they were getting

[00:16:30] yeah they were thinking they were getting a good and and how much uh I sometimes hold up my my parents

[00:16:37] post post adoption education it's a it's a it's a single page of a for paper well and to me like

[00:16:45] maybe it's not about the trauma but it's also about the process for me post like personally seeing

[00:16:51] the institutionalization of intercountry into adoption and the trans racial adoption like that

[00:16:56] piece particularly I think they knew I think there's a lot of illegal like that's why I'm realizing

[00:17:04] there are a lot of illegal adoptions and you know it's where they were in adopting cats and dogs

[00:17:10] they were adopting humans and bringing them in from different countries and I'm like okay that's

[00:17:16] that's not open for me yeah because the the money thing comes yeah it comes in here and

[00:17:23] and is uh the money thing is a cut the course of the grey market and then the black market

[00:17:32] and then with modalities and that feels uh I don't often swear on the podcast that feels fucking

[00:17:39] awful do you know I mean yeah and and let's also acknowledge as well many of the mothers had a lot

[00:17:47] of trauma about infertility which was never addressed like I know that my mom never addressed that

[00:17:55] so I know that's a piece of you know and I think yeah they didn't know and and at what point do

[00:18:05] you take responsibility because here we are taking responsibility just for and I mean there's no

[00:18:11] end goal it's just about like curiosity and learning and self-improvement like I don't know

[00:18:19] or I just yeah I think if though it's more people in the world took responsibility for themselves

[00:18:26] the world would be a far kind of sort of place yeah so the first step going back a couple of minutes

[00:18:35] the first step in in your healing was coming out the fog and really was realizing um my first step

[00:18:42] probably was it was probably the identity piece like the cultural identity piece

[00:18:47] yeah so what realizing it or or realizing it it's realizing it realizing so rejecting like realizing

[00:18:57] that obviously I realized I'm Asian I looked different to my mom but really rejecting like having

[00:19:02] people in high school who are Korean coming up saying well you're Korean and me going you're just

[00:19:06] weird like just because I look around the outside there's no part of me that feels connected to

[00:19:13] that identity and then but then as a 20 year old at university this was my first epiphany working

[00:19:21] with Aboriginal young people and helping them find their culture and then realizing pathway

[00:19:28] through that process that in fact perhaps my maybe my curiosity was also about myself

[00:19:39] and then um enrolling in the masters of international studies majoring in heritage studies

[00:19:44] which was Korean so I probably didn't eat Korean food till I was like 19 I didn't I had some

[00:19:53] Korean friends who like were trying to you know be Korean with me and I didn't even know what that

[00:19:57] meant I had lots of Asian friends I identified as an Asian Australian um but only through outwardly

[00:20:05] you know inwardly I've sort of so I'm sure you know I was I thought that I was white I thought

[00:20:12] that I was a privileged white person even though on the outside you know and even when you say to

[00:20:16] me today like or you're a person of color I have to kind of pause and go hang on a minute oh yeah

[00:20:20] that's true you know so it's a it's a confusion is it like a forgetting is it now it's not now

[00:20:32] it's not it think it was now it's now it's it's like I didn't grow up as an as a like in a conventional

[00:20:39] Asian environment of course but after going to Asia spending time in Asia living in South Korea for

[00:20:45] almost two years learning some language learning some culture I identify as Korean my children are

[00:20:50] now learning some Korean because they're interested in it like the you know they just signed up to

[00:20:57] some app and they're learning the letters and even though I don't speak a lot of Korean I'm not

[00:21:02] fluent I made peace with me being an interracial intercountry adoptee who is Korean so I think the first

[00:21:11] piece was that identity piece like going who am I and I'm also an identical twin so you know

[00:21:18] there's also that when we were adopted together by the same white Australian family in Sydney you

[00:21:24] know um so there was also that identity piece of like separate being separate from my twin like

[00:21:30] like almost identifying through high school so all the twins the twins twins and then having an

[00:21:35] experience like away I didn't agree to career first I lived in France for a year first and having

[00:21:40] experience of being like my own individual person and I almost now doing a 360 coming back and

[00:21:46] being like oh yeah that's right I am a twin I am a adoptee because I think I kind of wanted to

[00:21:52] explore my identity outside of that yeah explore your identity outside of

[00:22:00] being like between who's you know a trans race because you can lean on that like that's a story

[00:22:06] you know that's like a piece of your identity but I'm also all the other things I'm interested in

[00:22:11] like passionate about coaching or breathwork or um you know for you know when I was parenting and

[00:22:18] doing the attachment parenting stuff like all of those things um I work in community development as

[00:22:23] well like all of these things that I do which is aside from being an adoptee or an intercountry adoptee

[00:22:29] I let that go I kind of didn't even tell people for a while but as you know you know

[00:22:35] I don't know whether you grew up but being a trans racial adoptee people are always asking like oh

[00:22:40] oh you've got no accent how is that possible and I ended up as a young person just giving them

[00:22:45] a lot of information like I'd you know be speaking to taxi drivers and they'd be saying oh

[00:22:49] have you met your birth parents and it wasn't until almost like quite recently that someone said to

[00:22:55] me Nick you don't have to give them that information and I was like revolution you know my sister

[00:23:01] my sister's actually funny she she used to say where you're from and she used to say I'm from

[00:23:05] padding turn because that's like the name of the suburb where we grew up but I would always say

[00:23:08] I'm from South I do the whole studio I'm from South Sv'grie but I'm a adoptee and when I realized

[00:23:13] it 40 I didn't have to tell them I sort of took some time I'm like 46 now but I took some time

[00:23:18] to just not tell people and that was a good process you know yeah yeah so the the start of the healing

[00:23:30] was connecting yeah yeah and then I didn't come out I lived in Korea for two years

[00:23:39] and I didn't come out of the fog in Korea I saw these people who were like feeling lost looking

[00:23:45] for their parents who were angry at their you know their experience being an adoptee and I just

[00:23:50] was that was so foreign to me I was like why aren't you grateful you know like well not that I was

[00:23:58] getting along great with my mom I have to say but like you know don't tell a story that's and I

[00:24:03] think that's part of when I you know this people pleasing that I think lots of adoptees bring

[00:24:09] with themselves because we're so afraid of disconnection and rejection and we're trying to

[00:24:17] people please and you know and that's the society that brings out out of you know particularly women

[00:24:22] but all people so that it wasn't until I started during my own personal self development at around

[00:24:32] 40 that I actually came out of the fog that then I started to like critique this experience I've

[00:24:40] have and I can knowledge that there was trauma there because I didn't understand what trauma was I

[00:24:44] didn't really care and that was that was the next piece and then there was one experience where I did

[00:24:52] this timeline therapy and I said to you like I didn't even think about myself in utero that was

[00:24:57] like four years ago or maybe even only three years ago when someone took me in timeline therapy

[00:25:02] back to the moment I was my mother's womb and she didn't realize that she was totally triggering me

[00:25:09] and it was fine I had the tools to deal with it but for two days I walked around it's going oh well

[00:25:13] hang on a minute I have a cran mum I was in a womb of this mother like it was so weird so that

[00:25:20] was another epiphany where I was like oh trying to make sense of that and at the same time making

[00:25:29] sense of like I'm allowed to not be happy and think that's part of my childhood wasn't enough

[00:25:34] and crave you know have hunger for maternalism and all these things in connection to culture

[00:25:41] I gave myself permission to do those so that's still happening I've got a DNA test sitting on my

[00:25:47] desk over there I haven't I've done the DNA test but I'm doing a different brand that's more connected

[00:25:55] with Korea and it's sitting there because I'm just in the process still of working through

[00:26:01] like do I want to find you know our time runs out if our parents die like do I want to find out

[00:26:09] do I want to meet them do I want to know because you hear through amazing places like your podcast

[00:26:15] and you know documentaries and stories and meeting people people's the perception that you have

[00:26:23] of where you came from might be so completely different to the actual facts like maybe you

[00:26:29] know the story from me was mum and dad weren't married dad you know owned in Seoul a corner store

[00:26:36] mum got pregnant you know she ran away dad couldn't cope put us up for adoption that could be an

[00:26:43] absolute I already know that my birth dates are like I think it's a lie because I don't think that

[00:26:48] it was true I think they made us seem younger than we were because that seems more enticing for

[00:26:53] you know to get a smaller baby younger baby so I don't know I'm still processing it all I'm still

[00:27:00] working through it yeah yeah is this this uh you talked about kind of a relief in not having to share

[00:27:13] all the details yeah that you sister just says well I'm from pannington and you just

[00:27:19] out and you would go into hell for a long time do you think that you know what where do you think that

[00:27:25] where do you think that comes from that need to explain ourselves

[00:27:33] I think it's an ins it was an insecurity but also I mean I think it's a societal thing like

[00:27:38] you don't have boundaries but I think that's further exacerbated by like I talked about before

[00:27:46] like some of the wounds do you want to call them wounds or some of the things that we've experienced

[00:27:52] where um where we're not allowed to have loud voices when like we're afraid that something's

[00:28:02] going to like reject us or hate us or like any of those pieces so we just try and appease and it

[00:28:10] becomes almost just a habit just to be constantly appeasing so we lose sense of self and I think

[00:28:17] I mean that probably resonates with lots of people who aren't adopted as well but particularly

[00:28:20] with adopted people what do you think well I've never really considered this before um yeah what

[00:28:28] uh what what came to me was putting to put it together a couple of different things from what you've

[00:28:38] shared so especially just in last couple of minutes right so we've got um we've we've got limited facts

[00:28:47] we don't know whether they're true or not and you know especially with the translational

[00:28:52] adoption piece and then you know it's done in a foreign country the regulations maybe different

[00:28:59] the paper work maybe different the bureaucracy maybe different the institutions are different right

[00:29:04] so we've got basically um we've got we're not sure you're not sure of your facts

[00:29:10] um and that maybe wanting to share what you see as the truth is it is almost a uh a reaction to that

[00:29:24] so I'm gonna I'm gonna share I'm gonna share so much truth with you because I don't

[00:29:32] I'm not sure these are the facts as I see them do I think maybe I mean I think that's an interesting

[00:29:39] theory to be honest I wouldn't be able to say yes or no but I'm very like try and be honest

[00:29:46] and that's really interesting is like when you've grown brought up and but I haven't thought about

[00:29:50] those facts being untrue until recently that's the only thing about that it's like I just thought

[00:29:58] that was the truth so I would thought that I was telling the truth not that I was you know yeah

[00:30:05] I mean I was thinking the other a situation 30 for probably 40 years ago and we were playing

[00:30:17] or we're on holiday um we were in a cafe and I was playing pool with a kid um so I'm maybe 12,

[00:30:25] 13 the kids about the same age his dad's there my dad's there obviously my adopted there right

[00:30:31] and the the guy the the guy says to my dad that that's your son now looking at looking at me

[00:30:40] and you know I hear I hear this bloke out of the corner of my ear and you know look look to my

[00:30:46] look look at look at my dad and my dad just said yeah it is yeah and I was thinking well

[00:30:53] what what would that have been that situation being like it clearly wouldn't know

[00:31:00] if I'd been a trans-racial adoptee then that bloke wouldn't have said that you know

[00:31:06] what what if he said who's who's the lad who's who's that guy who's that guy you know how would my

[00:31:14] dad have answered would you say do I've been Korean and my dad's why you know what what would have

[00:31:22] happened there and you know like this trying to explain it are we trying to explain our way into

[00:31:30] uh trying to explain our way into into the into the family to try and counter a belief a

[00:31:36] counterfeeling that we don't fit in yeah like like constantly like trying to um grapple with your own

[00:31:46] like belief system and trying to prove yeah I think that could be true like keep saying it like

[00:31:52] and even if it's not like trying to prove it still trying to grapple with the concept of like

[00:31:57] this is where I come from like this I mean I can't remember feeling particularly uncomfortable about

[00:32:02] it but I also know that it was none of their business really unless I chose for it to be but I

[00:32:08] didn't feel like it was a choice at the time so but that could also be part of the the nurture

[00:32:15] part of you know the way that I was brought up not just the part of you know real

[00:32:21] inquisement or whatever it left behind whatever we might find it. Yes what we're also getting into

[00:32:28] in you know as you said it's a theory it is this is my theory but we're you know with a are we

[00:32:34] are we the are we the kings and queens of overthinking as adoptees you know like we've got all these

[00:32:41] answers we've got all these questions we can't get answers to them we're not we're not at peace

[00:32:46] until we get the answers we have to come up with these complicated theories you know like it's just

[00:32:56] you know we've become and as what why one of my mentors because we've become more on we just

[00:33:02] have more on our mind right yeah and we get and we get we get further and further away from

[00:33:10] and we're getting further and further away from that simplicity of simplicity and peace of

[00:33:25] we are not our trauma and and and that's that's a for me that's a kind of a peaceful a peaceful

[00:33:35] stand and the overthinking yeah it gets in the way of that gets in the way of that peace it's the

[00:33:48] opposite thinking is the opposite thinking is the opposite of peace I think I think there's

[00:33:57] truth in that but I also think that you can use thinking foreign against you so it's just being

[00:34:04] nuanced about knowing when just to give yourself a break and you know like I said I'm a coach and

[00:34:09] I'm a breath worker so the reason why I did breath work is because sometimes you've got to get out

[00:34:13] of your head and you've got to get into body right and so and so I do understand that but I also

[00:34:20] and so it just I think it just depends I think that for me like doing the exploration like I think

[00:34:26] it's fun and interesting and engaging and then there's a time when I can do too much of it so and

[00:34:33] then there's this simplicity but I do that with everything you know I don't know whether it's to do

[00:34:38] with adoption but it's definitely part of my personality yeah so I mean when we look at

[00:34:45] you've you've relating to so far we've been talking mainly about psychological and emotional

[00:34:52] healing yeah yeah and and then the but obviously the breath work that being that brings in a

[00:35:00] a body thing so what did you say when getting out of our heads and into our bodies is I think you

[00:35:09] said something yeah yeah yeah because you know the body stores emotions and I think that

[00:35:16] it's not really a science it's an art form so that and so you need to be careful with the ways

[00:35:22] that you use some magic healing processes and the breath can because of the physiological kind

[00:35:30] of changes that you can create your body by changing like the oxygen and carbon dioxide

[00:35:36] you can get yourself into a state where you know mentally emotionally things can change

[00:35:44] what can really happen is you become very sensitive you open up to sensitivities

[00:35:49] you take down barriers sometimes and allow emotions to come out you never know what to expect

[00:35:56] and sometimes those emotions can be wonderful sometimes those emotions can be scary or like anger

[00:36:01] or you know crying I've had lots of different experiences whether it be through breath work or

[00:36:07] hypnosis where I haven't been able to express those emotions just through talk therapy or coaching

[00:36:13] or whatever it is but when you get into a state where like your eyes close and you can

[00:36:20] relax and let down those barriers and some and I think your brain does go into different state

[00:36:25] like the frequency that your brain is changes then you can release things you can process things

[00:36:32] I think don't know whether everyone believes that or whether yeah but I think that it's possible

[00:36:39] yeah yeah I've just started somatic therapy stuff but it's not it's not breath work

[00:36:50] okay what does it bring you what does breath work bring you other than coming out of your head

[00:36:59] breath work can be used in so many different ways so the way that we breathe can make us

[00:37:05] activated or it can bring us down and like relax the nervous system and make us feel peaceful

[00:37:12] and so I do a journey which is to music and I generally do both so I generally activate the body with

[00:37:20] activating breaths so and because of that activation what I'm trying to do is move it allows someone

[00:37:26] to move energy I don't do it in a really intense way some people can do it so that they're

[00:37:32] they go to a psychedelic state like this transcendental breath work I don't do that but I do push

[00:37:39] beyond sometimes the comfort because we're not used to physiologically breathing like that and

[00:37:43] we're not used to the state we can feel dizzy we can get cramping when we do that but I will bring

[00:37:48] bring up the emotions and with the intention so we're thinking consciously the intention but

[00:37:54] also subconsciously and also I think on an energetic level if you believe that stuff the intention

[00:37:59] to release to release and so I've had people like you know who cry who you know we can move like

[00:38:06] because you're in this intuitive state your if you're in a trusting environment the energy that's

[00:38:13] can can can create that atmosphere where you can express and then I generally will I could stay

[00:38:22] up high and energize someone and get them ready to like do some work and be really thoughtful but

[00:38:27] what I generally do is then what people come to me for is then to relax so you get rid of some

[00:38:32] of this energy this frantic energy it might be stress or anxiety or fear and and planting seeds

[00:38:40] in the subconscious mind to do that not just in a session but ongoing and then and then using

[00:38:46] again the subconscious to plant seeds for what you want you slow the breath down you allow the

[00:38:52] parasympathetic nervous system to like be activated so that you create that calm and then

[00:39:00] sometimes when I do it these days I can just sleep or I can go into a zen state where I'm just

[00:39:08] like like sometimes you forget to breathe even though it's usually a continuous breath you've

[00:39:12] kind of drop out and you forget to breathe all there are times where I have like visualizations

[00:39:19] um and you can interpret them or not interpret them and then just like come out of it very very

[00:39:25] gently and through that people make decisions they just feel like nice some some the last time I

[00:39:35] did a group thing in session someone said I just had this moment of my heart filling and having

[00:39:40] this incredible moment of joy and then you know the session before one to one like someone

[00:39:45] cried and released all this energy from a trauma from her past she just that wasn't the intention

[00:39:51] or but she felt like release and kind of like peace and you never know what's going to happen every

[00:39:58] time you do it it's different yeah what's it um what's it brought you so when when you are working

[00:40:10] with um when you're working with your therapist rather than when you're working as I'm

[00:40:18] so therapist with a breath worker with other people what's it what's it brought what's it

[00:40:24] brought you that breath work so like I do it in different ways like I do it um like in person

[00:40:31] so the times that I've done it in person um when I do it and I've you know I've got like

[00:40:37] colleagues and stuff and we do breath work together um it has like created clarity so like the

[00:40:47] intention can be to move through a particular life kind of obstacle or whatever like I've done that

[00:40:56] and to release emotion so it's I've done that in ways that I couldn't do through talk therapy

[00:41:02] um but often these days I just use it for um expressing like stress anxiety and just relaxing

[00:41:08] like just getting into a state to start the day to create clarity I use it you know sometimes

[00:41:13] I meditate but at the moment I'm using breath words instead of meditation to create that and not

[00:41:17] and I don't just do it with live with people online or in person I mean them facilitating me

[00:41:23] I also use an app so in the morning I can wake up and do like a 10 minute just breath work

[00:41:29] um and I've and it just relaxes me and you know you can use you can use the functional breathing

[00:41:36] patterns you know when you're driving when you're like you know just all so I use them in

[00:41:42] all different ways I know people who've going through menopause and I've been using them to change

[00:41:47] their fluctuations of body temperature like we've found breathwork patterns that lower their body

[00:41:53] temperature when they're having a hot flush and when they're having a cold flush it increases their

[00:41:57] temperature so it's different for everyone what is it brought you kind of overall as well as in

[00:42:06] those in those moments uh I guess a method that takes me out of my head and puts me into my body

[00:42:15] and allows me to release emotions and and and nurture my nervous system does that is that yeah

[00:42:23] that's what I'm looking for really and I know that's well I didn't know what I was looking for

[00:42:27] so looking for your answer yeah I think I've been I didn't have an answer because I never done this

[00:42:32] stuff um I'm thinking it back to something else that I said at the top yeah so you said well

[00:42:42] we don't want we you know we may not want to wash out the last cut yeah

[00:42:53] we we maybe so I'm thinking um are you are you talking here about breathwork as a way to

[00:43:05] to clean out to clean out the cup or is it about breathing is it about breathing into the tough

[00:43:14] stuff you know what I think um breathing into the tough stuff making peace with different kinds of

[00:43:22] emotions but if we use that analogy like because when I say maybe we want to wash out the cup because

[00:43:28] who we are like our past and what happened to us as part of who we are and we can love that part

[00:43:34] of us because so I think like part of healing is to like accept ourselves now full humanity

[00:43:39] so flaws in all history and all and so we don't want to get rid of ourselves but maybe it's about

[00:43:46] like if you're saying like sometimes like you know what if you know we come there and there's

[00:43:50] there's the clean cup and then we get filled up and there's the layers and then

[00:43:54] and then part of life is like stirring it all up but what if breathwork helps us

[00:43:58] the layers kind of like fall into place like this is kind of like notion of coming into self for like

[00:44:06] being brave to be ourselves like I think that's part of growth is like to just

[00:44:11] not be afraid not pretend like maybe that's more I would hope that any kind of healing does

[00:44:18] and maybe that's what breathwork does not to clean out the cup but to create the clarity of the layers

[00:44:25] within the cup so that you can like sit in comfort being you yeah

[00:44:33] and maybe that's what healing is like because you don't clean now the cup I don't know that's just for me

[00:44:39] yeah so um for me it's one I took we talked about the feeling whole right

[00:44:48] so one of my definitions of healing is feeling whole and then the

[00:44:59] and then another definition is feeling the whole of our emotions

[00:45:07] yeah it's almost as if if for me if we are um separating in the if you know separating who we

[00:45:18] are from how we feel yeah um in the first instance and then embracing the whole shibang

[00:45:28] yeah because our feelings are no longer

[00:45:38] yeah uh our our we realize our our our feelings aren't going to as cold as you know like

[00:45:46] like we are not our feelings and then we have the ability to become the watcher of our thoughts

[00:45:51] and feelings and experience yeah yeah we sit we sit with them and it's a theme that we keep on coming

[00:46:00] back to in and not every episode of the podcast but um not uh yeah not not pouring

[00:46:11] and not being so afraid of our trauma that we need to pour it away yeah sitting with it

[00:46:21] yeah sitting with the heat right because we know yeah um

[00:46:28] um we know that the heat doesn't have any long-term impact on the cup yeah I just saw I don't

[00:46:41] know whether this is this works or not but my thought was if we're using a measure for it's like

[00:46:48] well feeling the emotions is like roasting the coffee beans right it's like it's like

[00:46:58] and I use an analogy and it's like for me growth is a tunnel a tunnel of darkness and there's light

[00:47:04] on either side and you know the objective you know is to get to the other side because right here

[00:47:12] we're here in the light and we walk through the tunnel and we get to this place of complete darkness

[00:47:15] and we keep on wanting to turn back to go the way we know that's comfortable but really what we're

[00:47:21] talking about is going through the emotion when we're growing because I think um you know growing is

[00:47:29] expansion and then you know the opposite of expansion is contraction and so that's that's also what

[00:47:37] we need to heal as the times that we've contracted so when we're growing we've got to have this

[00:47:42] capacity and this is where you know the idea of this like roasting roasting the coffee beans comes in

[00:47:50] and keep moving having blind faith like blind faith that we can handle the emotions that we're

[00:47:55] going to be okay on the other side even though it feels disgusting and at some moment we start

[00:48:00] sit there and we're walking in pitch darkness not knowing which direction we're going but we need

[00:48:05] to move forward to that next place and then we see the light and then you said you don't even know

[00:48:09] you were in the trauma because you just in the darkness but then when you start to see the light

[00:48:14] then you can look back and go oh I see what just happened I was walking through the process

[00:48:20] but if we never go through it you want to jump over it you want to dig under it you want to just

[00:48:26] just not experience it

[00:48:28] yes and our going back to something that you said earlier on you talked about

[00:48:42] you didn't if we just call this cultural trauma like just for the sake of putting it in two words

[00:48:52] right you didn't see your cultural trauma until you were teaching aborigines about their

[00:49:08] cultural yeah yeah so our that was another fog lift moment that was another coming out to the fog

[00:49:20] moment you've been in that darkness for so long you'd become used to to that and you only

[00:49:35] came into the light when you were actually talking about other peoples you think I fell

[00:49:46] I've felt what they felt yeah I suffered from what they've suffered from similar kind of two-stop-stop-stop

[00:49:56] it's it's it's um our it's that quite in the by by young until we make the subconscious conscious

[00:50:06] it will rule it will rule our life and we will call it fate

[00:50:12] I think it's about a series of series of coming out to the fog moments it's yeah

[00:50:20] it's coming out to the fog again and again and again and the the peeling back at the layers of the

[00:50:26] the trauma so we're peeling back the transracial piece we're peeling peeling back the relational

[00:50:31] piece we're peering back the utero piece we're peeling them all back and we've got this cake

[00:50:38] we've got this trauma cake yeah but but but and we are the we are the the cake stand we are there

[00:50:46] yeah we are on which or that trauma is sitting there and and when you talk about that what it makes me

[00:50:54] think about is like if I because I'm thinking of like the walking through the dark tunnel

[00:50:59] and what happens is when we're walking towards the light we can't imagine that it's really easy

[00:51:05] it's actually really hard even though we've seen the light because the actions that we take in

[00:51:10] the decisions that we make in the beliefs that we have to be willing to change are really uncomfortable

[00:51:16] and so to actually go through that personal growth and to to move through that process of healing

[00:51:21] we actually have to be willing to move towards discomfort so whether that be learning a new language

[00:51:27] or like you know like changing the relationship with your adoptive parent to say like

[00:51:33] this is something that I'm going to do and it's different you know all those things

[00:51:38] so therein lies the barrier to healing yeah totally yeah yeah um I was uh I'm working on this

[00:51:56] let's tell you about this trauma framework I'm working on sorry the healing framework I'm working

[00:52:00] so I fell into my opinion yeah I'm working on this healing framework at the moment so

[00:52:07] basically I'm trying to distill everything that I hear from fellow adoptees and

[00:52:14] everything that they share with me everything that fellow adoptees share with me um

[00:52:21] I've shown I don't know like a questionnaire sent out a questionnaire on asking these questions about

[00:52:27] what does healing mean to you what's helped you heal what's hindered your healing and I'm looking at

[00:52:41] those questions those three questions and the healing moment's question looking at those

[00:52:49] on one side but across the top of the page I'm looking at the different healing bits so we've

[00:52:56] talked about psychological we talked about emotional with we talked about physical biological

[00:53:05] and we've talked about but not so much maybe social and relational and then we also kind of

[00:53:12] we started off really about talking about the social sorry the spiritual and the essential

[00:53:18] you know what is our essence and one of the I came on a coming up with these are their ideas

[00:53:27] like so how do we make this framework work for people um now how we make it into a roadmap and

[00:53:37] the the questions that are coming to mind on the basis of our conversation are

[00:53:44] are we willing to feel that pain are we are we willing are we willing to be wrong about

[00:53:56] what we believe do we bit like do we believe that

[00:54:04] that we can heal because based on some of the answers to the question there's people don't believe

[00:54:16] those some people that answer that question and don't believe that they can heal now that's going

[00:54:25] to get in the way isn't it oh 100% oh my gosh this is like so when I coach there's always like a

[00:54:32] domino quick like domino effect and often you come up to this and that's that's the domino piece

[00:54:39] where it's like if you don't think that it's possible to change your thinking or belief system

[00:54:45] or heal that's what you're talking about then you can't you can't change that's like the belief

[00:54:53] that's the belief that it's going to block you it's the obstacle so like I often will spend like

[00:54:58] sessions and sessions and sessions with one client just exploring that like why do you believe

[00:55:03] that why why do you want to believe that why you know are you holding onto it what what else could

[00:55:10] you believe is the opposite true like all these things and you know my job as a coach is to

[00:55:15] just be curious i'm not trying to change their mind but then showing them like look at this one

[00:55:20] thought it's like oh yeah and and we keep coming some for some people we keep coming back

[00:55:25] it's like that neural pathways so deep within them and below that there might be something that's

[00:55:31] a belief system about who they are they don't deserve to heal or you know what I mean like there's

[00:55:36] something about worthiness or that it comes in at the crux of it that sometimes just

[00:55:43] for some people you can just you can just wobble that belief system and then the whole thing

[00:55:50] collapses it's like a table with all these legs and you can cut a few out and then the whole thing

[00:55:54] but until they're willing to investigate it's kind of like well it's not going to be possible

[00:56:02] how do you think that trauma affects our beliefs

[00:56:06] trauma makes it feel visceral that's what i think because it's stored in the body so it's really

[00:56:13] hard for us to separate our experience from our thinking and most of us don't realize our thoughts

[00:56:19] are optional anyway so we just think like for me shame was a huge emotion that I had to make friends

[00:56:26] with when I was doing my master coach training that was like my main kind of like obstacle was just

[00:56:34] like making friends with shame because we think that it's true we think that it's who we are

[00:56:40] and then like that's of course that's how can we how can we change that and then

[00:56:47] and then the that the worthiness piece the worthiness piece is so integral like

[00:56:54] and for some of us it needs to be just laying foundation of being willing to believe something new

[00:57:00] being willing to like have positive thoughts about yourself because some of us don't want to give

[00:57:04] ourselves permission to do that for whatever reason and then it's like well what do you want to fight for

[00:57:11] because at the moment you're fighting for you being small you're fighting for your pain you're

[00:57:16] fighting for for the trauma so you have to decide no one can make you but you know asking the right

[00:57:24] questions I think can provide avenues for someone to just open a crack like I say like there's a door

[00:57:31] and there's like light behind the door and you just open that little crack and let a little

[00:57:34] little light through and once you've opened that little crack that that gap is going to get bigger

[00:57:39] and bigger if you're willing to let it but you have to do it consciously I really think you have

[00:57:44] to be conscious about it and do it deliberately and remember there's a difference between your

[00:57:48] conscious like cognitive mind and your subconscious mind and you can like like manage your mind

[00:57:57] basically you can't control your mind but you can manage your mind. How much talk do you hear about

[00:58:08] our beliefs in your world in down in Australia and with other other adoptees you know how much

[00:58:20] how much talk is there of beliefs? I don't know I mean I've it's only recently that I've become

[00:58:28] more connected to adoptee communities I don't have I think more we talk about our experiences

[00:58:39] I do have a very close friend who's also an adoptee and we talk about our belief systems like

[00:58:46] our beliefs around and we share lots of you know short videos on Instagram which talks about

[00:58:54] stuff that we've talked about you know like the kinds of traumas how they manifest the kinds of

[00:58:59] families that we've been adopted into and how to heal but I didn't know what adoptees in general

[00:59:06] are talking about in Australian terms of beliefs. I'm not sure. I'm sorry great I don't know if I

[00:59:12] mentioned this on the recent podcast or or just another conversation I'd with an adoptee so

[00:59:18] apologies listen as if you heard this one from me before and yeah I think it's really

[00:59:25] profound for me and another mind that I'm repeating it so I saw something a video from Gabo Marseille

[00:59:36] talking about not only this wasn't adoptee specific this was human race specific right

[00:59:45] feeling like we're not good enough right and he said that's not a feeling

[01:00:02] feeling sad feeling happy feeling nervous feeling stressed feeling confident those are feelings

[01:00:13] feeling you're not good enough is not a feeling it's a belief but see I think shames this is a

[01:00:23] feeling that comes from that belief what do you think I agree yeah so I agree with yeah I can see

[01:00:39] that like I'm not enough is what creates that but also a visceral feeling of like the shame

[01:00:45] that comes up I think you know I went to a school coach at school which always said it always goes

[01:00:50] like like circumstance triggers a thought triggers a feeling you know the drives an action that creates

[01:00:55] a result but the truth is it's the cycle like we have a feeling we have a thought and then one triggers

[01:01:02] the other and so I'd but I think yeah when we can make peace with the fact that we're all humans

[01:01:10] and everyone including Beyonce including you know everyone just just has that experience where

[01:01:17] we feel shame it's just the nature of the world nature of humans and once we can make peace with

[01:01:22] that then we can show up more authentically as we are and tell our truth and then show up whole

[01:01:29] use the word hole before that's that's healing yeah the biggest thing breakthrough for me

[01:01:40] on this subject it's been seeing that the difference between feeling whole and being whole

[01:01:53] right so spiritually I believe that we are all of us already whole

[01:02:03] psychologically we'll be healing forever and there's a freedom in that I'm I'm far more interested

[01:02:15] who I am than how I feel yeah and I just want to take it back because I'm in danger of

[01:02:26] um it's putting too much of my stuff in here

[01:02:29] it it seems it is you know

[01:02:40] getting rid of shame

[01:02:46] seems like a really tough task for me yeah and a lot tougher than um exploring the belief

[01:02:58] yeah we're not good enough to sit to make but we don't get rid of it we just make peace with it

[01:03:06] we make friends and we know so this so this so this is there was an epiphany that I had

[01:03:10] and it's not to do with adoption but it was to do with shame and so I would I would one of the

[01:03:15] things that I kept feeling when I was doing I was stepping outside my comfort zone I was just like

[01:03:20] racked with shame like this you know thoughts I'm not good enough I failed I'm gonna do it wrong

[01:03:26] no one likes me I don't belong here like all these things are coming up and and then I was walking

[01:03:31] I can't remember it's just like I would go and lie down let's be like okay this is shame this is

[01:03:35] shame this is shame and I was walking down the street and I was just so consumed I'm like this is

[01:03:39] horrible and there was just this moment where I was like hang on like even though it seems so simple

[01:03:46] now I say it now but it was this moment where I had the clarity like oh I'm experiencing shame I'm

[01:03:51] thinking these thoughts like as humans we're so it's so part of us to believe that it's this is

[01:03:57] what we're in that when we become the watch out and we have this moment and what I realized as

[01:04:04] like growing I still do it I still get to the place where like oh this is horrible like I'm

[01:04:09] in this is so shameful like blood but then but then the distance between you being in it and

[01:04:15] then you being able to go hang on a minute I'm okay like I'm watching myself I'm watching this

[01:04:21] experience and yes this is horrible you don't like gaslight yourself and yes I'm feeling I can

[01:04:26] process that I can move through it and I know at some point I'm gonna realize that that was just

[01:04:34] the experience and I'm gonna move through it and I'll be on the other side so I don't think

[01:04:38] it's about getting rid of shame I just made friends with shame I'm like and there was a point where

[01:04:42] I was like oh the shame's gone of course the shame doesn't go the shame's gonna come back all the

[01:04:45] time it's fine but I'm like okay with that I'm like I'm not I'm not I'm not because what we tend to do

[01:04:51] is we resist or we cover up our emotions with like food and you know dopamine watching TV whatever

[01:04:59] is that we do and then we just run away and pretend it's not there but then when we like

[01:05:04] open which is what you've talked about and then we have the ability to be the watch out that's

[01:05:12] why I think it's healing I was gonna write a blog post the other day about the shame storm before

[01:05:16] I would have just been in the shame storm but now when I'm a shame storm it's actually gross I use

[01:05:21] the shame storm for my own personal growth I use it for me instead of against me I'm like oh here

[01:05:28] I am again and that's okay I get it now yeah it's powerful very powerful at some point during that last

[01:05:39] during that last section of I don't know something you you said you said adoption and shame weren't

[01:05:51] were were it said this this isn't to do with adoption this is

[01:06:00] I think because it wasn't I don't I mean if I guess who I am that's part of who I am but it wasn't

[01:06:06] it was just yeah it was I think it was because I was stepping out some I comfort zone and it was

[01:06:13] just I don't know I didn't connect it with adoption yeah yeah I mean I don't know whether it is you know

[01:06:20] yeah I don't know yeah it was just an emotion it was just the humanity of it it's just like a human

[01:06:25] part of you know that that's all it was it's just a human experience yeah yeah yeah

[01:06:35] this real genius in in that making friends we shame other than

[01:06:43] yeah yeah and and they're the one they're the throw away truth bomb but I loved you said thoughts are

[01:06:51] optional yeah yeah

[01:06:59] I don't think in the moment we can always change a thought but I think sometimes we can

[01:07:04] and it can be authentically like we can just release the thought or change a thought

[01:07:09] but we do have the power even if we can't change this thought in the moment to manage our mind

[01:07:14] which is create new neural pathways so when we give ourselves permission to believe something new

[01:07:20] then we can practice something new yeah can just go back to the shame thing for a minute I shouldn't

[01:07:26] take you I'm taking it back into it going around around and do do clients come to you wanting to get

[01:07:33] rid of shame no they don't even realize they haven't they don't even realize they have it

[01:07:39] that's just that's just pardon parcel of the process of these conversations that's not the reason

[01:07:46] yeah no they come they come because they want an external goal that they want for field there's

[01:07:52] something there's obstacles that they're trying to fix and and then so then you know as a person who

[01:07:58] understands like who studied the way humans work and and has tools to help people change the

[01:08:04] way that they think in their way they experience emotions you use all of those so that the results

[01:08:10] that they want and the process that they use is different yeah

[01:08:19] and does so does the shame go of its own of course or is that still left behind or does that

[01:08:26] depend or what I think over time like we work on it on so many different levels so whether it's

[01:08:33] like emotionally making peace with experiencing the shame or whether it's changing the neural pathways

[01:08:42] like you know we're laying down new tracks and then and so the beliefs that you know whether

[01:08:49] it be like I'm enough I'm worthy like you know laddering thoughts with because because you know you

[01:08:59] let's let's use a specific example let's imagine someone who

[01:09:07] I'm trying to think of something that's worthiness but I mean worthiness comes into almost

[01:09:11] everything that we do so it's someone who's over-eating so I mean for a while the weight loss

[01:09:16] coach someone who's over-eating who's compulsively going to the fridge at night and they're doing that

[01:09:21] I mean shame will come into that shame will come into that because like part of the process of

[01:09:28] deciding to not eat is a loving gift to yourself to do what is best for you eating the food can be

[01:09:37] love sometimes and nurturing and the exact right things to do but when you're compulsively

[01:09:42] eating to cover up emotions or to escape something from yourself then what's underlying that is a

[01:09:48] sense of lack of worth so when you learn how to make yourself important prioritize yourself and

[01:09:54] do things from a place of self-love then of course all of the thoughts that we come to

[01:10:01] are probably going to be related in some way toworthiness and shame yeah so one of the processes that

[01:10:09] I think you know if you that I love to sort of use is like I say turning inside out

[01:10:18] because in this world what we tend to do is we tend to fuel ourselves with negativity and insecurity

[01:10:25] and scarcity and so if you're doing that like it drains you of energy you don't and you never really

[01:10:32] give yourself the acknowledgement and we I say the metaphor that I use is like you're climbing

[01:10:39] up this mountain you want to get to the top of the mountain and so you're throwing yourself against

[01:10:43] these cliffs and you're climbing and clawing up some people get there and they're like okay

[01:10:48] I'm here I need to get to the next mountain but when we're filled we turn inside out which is

[01:10:53] like this process of like then fueling ourselves with abundance like we want to get to the top of

[01:10:58] the mountain but not because it's going to mean that we're better that we're enough that we're

[01:11:02] worthy that we're successful it doesn't matter when we get to the place where we're like we're doing

[01:11:07] it because we want to and we have this innate choice then then the whole the whole thing changes

[01:11:15] because you're like looking at the butterflies as they go by you're breathing the fresh air and

[01:11:19] when you get to the top you know all there is is another mountain but it doesn't matter because you choose

[01:11:23] the next mountain that you want to so that's the process like you do it because you want to

[01:11:30] that's life right yeah wow yeah feels like a good place to bring in yeah

[01:11:40] yeah

[01:11:48] I thought that I thought we might get to this space

[01:11:52] you feel that space just now yeah yeah

[01:11:58] thanks listen thanks Nikki I speak to you very soon okay thank you