Our Inherent Health Liam O Mahony

[00:00:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Hello everybody welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees, put us today I'm delighted to be joined by Liam O Mahony

[00:00:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Was that closeish?

[00:00:13] [SPEAKER_00]: That's good

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_02]: That's cool

[00:00:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not, I'm just, I'm not gonna have to say the second name again

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I can just say Liam from now, so that makes my life easier for the next

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_02]: But the next hour or so

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_02]: So Liam and I just, and as Liam I spoke a couple of weeks ago now

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Last week, and I asked him this question about

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_02]: To what extent does he, just the word he, and resonate with him

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_02]: And you thought you said that you felt it was kind of over-used

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It'd be come a bit of a, a bus word, a bit of a cliche

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And you said instead that you prefer to look at five different things

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, what, what are the, one of the five different things Liam?

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Well I think, I'm, first thing I'd say Simon is that, you know, thanks for

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Invite me on, you know, it's great to be on here

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Very welcome

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I think healing definitely is, I think it's best to become the boss world

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It's become very generalised

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Now the first thing I would say is that I think if you look at healing as a verb

[00:01:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Versus is looking at healing as a known

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_00]: It kind of makes more sense to me

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_00]: That it's, you know, that it's a process

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And that it's something that I believe anyway

[00:01:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That I'll, you know, I'd be healing the day I die

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of the duties that I work with

[00:01:51] [SPEAKER_00]: They would feel the same

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think looking at it as a verb versus a known

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just very kind of helpful

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Because if it becomes a known, it becomes a team

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And we kind of, we lose track then of what healing actually might look like

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So I suppose, like, I just, I just say something about

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_00]: In kind of general, what I think, you know, what my own healing has looked like

[00:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And the people I work with

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And then the five things that we, what we spoke about

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I like to look at them as a kind of an expression of healing

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, if these five things are happening in a person's life

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I think then they're, you know, they're in that kind of process of healing

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Now I think, so in general when I kind of look at my own healing

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_00]: When I look at people I work with

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I have a kind of a phrase that I use as a kind of a general phrase

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think for healing to be kind of deep

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Then I think what we're doing is we're reclaiming

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Or embodied voice

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'd say that again because I think it's the part and phrase

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00]: We're reclaiming or embodied voice

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Because often, you know, I know like if you think about it

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Or story or our narrative

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Without experience is kind of meaningless

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And a lot of, you know, say it for me

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I would you agree with this sign

[00:03:47] [SPEAKER_00]: But for a lot of people I work with

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Or adapt, you know, or adaption experience

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Happened at a time

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_00]: What they call in psychology

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_00]: A time of implicit memory

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: So watch what implicit memory is

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It's embodied memory

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of all story

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: A lot of adaption story

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Is in our bodies

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Not in our minds

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And we often, you know, we often get a story in our minds

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Or we get a kind of a story or a narrative

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, maybe from a torn path

[00:04:30] [SPEAKER_00]: We might get past more story from our adopted parents

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_00]: We might get past of our story from tracing

[00:04:37] [SPEAKER_00]: We might get past of our stories from a lot of different ways

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is, you know, all very helpful

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think, you know, for, you know, for deeper healing

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And for more meaningful healing

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_00]: We really kind of need to kind of listen

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_00]: To that embodied voice

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And that that that that that that was

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_00]: That is, you know, kind of that that that

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe part of us that kind of features part of us

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: That is, you know, that is often for the dark dies

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of stuck in a different kind of consciousness

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And in a way we need to kind of, you know, for he, you know, to heal

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It's about the claim and that that voice really

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So that's it in general

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So like if someone was kind of under-road healing then or in the kind of a process of healing,

[00:05:36] [SPEAKER_00]: what would that look like? And I think that there's where the five things come in Simon,

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, the five, for me the five expressions of healing might be a good way of saying it.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Is the first is that because again, it happened to such a kind of a young age,

[00:05:56] [SPEAKER_00]: when we were kind of, you know, very young. I think kind of a adoption has the potential

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: to leave a kind of real, what you might call a relational rupture. So for me, certainly there was

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of a very deep, mistrust to people that I had all my life. So the first thing I'd see

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: with, you know, when a person's under-road healing is that relationally things get better.

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_00]: So, or relationships are, you know, or you could say they get deeper, they get more emotional,

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: they get more satisfying, they get more kind of meaningful. And certainly there's more

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of intimacy in relationships. And in a way as well as a kind of an easy way of saying

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_00]: it's Simon, is that we begin to leave order people matter to us and we begin to leave order people

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_00]: in at an emotional kind of level. So that's the first. The second, as well as kind of rupture

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_00]: like all of a kind of a regulation rupture, usually again the experience of adoption is that

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_00]: these and their added life will have kind of difficulties or challenges with

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_00]: autonomic regulation, emotional regulation, cognitive regulation. A lot of other

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_00]: adoptees that I work with have had kind of dependencies on alcohol, dependencies on food, food,

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_00]: dedictions, but you know, orders that have kind of addiction then to overwork in, addiction to

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_00]: addiction to other people see them. So there can be kind of a real kind of challenge in kind

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_00]: of regulating what goes on inside them. So they'll need to be over emotional, you know,

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_00]: they're kind of going to say over emotion, overwhelmed by emotion, are there be absolutely

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_00]: cut off from emotion? And so when you see sort of second sign I think of people healing is that

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_00]: they begin to have better regulation. They're not as dependent on kind of substances,

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: they're not depending on people, they're not as dependent on maybe work or status to keep them

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_00]: regulated. So we really kind of important. So the third kind of the third part I suppose,

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_00]: sorry, I mean is that I think we talked a little bit about this last week is that

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_00]: because again, you know, you could say the adoption experiences, you know,

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_00]: people I work with would be like this, we can be very sensitive to a lot of people see us.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So adopt these potentially can have a very kind of hostile relationship with themselves.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So they can relate to themselves in ways that kind of go from being critical of themselves to actually

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: don't write hatred of themselves. And then, of course, you know, when you relate to yourself

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_00]: in such a hostile way and it's kind of ties them with the first one, the first kind of point

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: that we talked about is very hard to sit where another human being because that's why we project

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_00]: on to another human being. Then if I see myself in a kind of you to negative for way,

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00]: then Simon is going to see myself in a hugely negative way. So the third part of healing is that

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_00]: adopt these start to relate and to themselves with more kind of gentleness, more kind of kindness

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and in a way it can kind of look back at their lives and usually if you kind of relate

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_00]: yourself in a very hostile way life will be kind of challenging in lots of different ways.

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_00]: And it can kind of even relate into the, you know, just 16 year or so, their baby self,

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_00]: their, you know, whatever in a more kind of gentle way. So that that hostility kind of softens

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_00]: and there's a more gentle, a more kind of kindness and more kind of notoring relationship with

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_00]: themselves, Simon. So that would be the third, the fourth then would be you potentially again

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_00]: with adoption, it can, it can leave on our systems in a heightened state. So with adoptees

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_00]: you could have somebody that would quite a lot of vigilance and if you're somebody that has quite

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: a lot of vigilance rest is going to be really hard. Now you might be someone that can sleep a

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_00]: lot but sleep and rest are two different things. So you might, you know, I remember in my 20s

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd often go to bed at 12 in the day and I, at 12 in the night sorry and then I can get up at 12

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_00]: in the day. But when I get up I'd nearly have to fall asleep again. So I could sleep plenty

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: but I never felt rested, never felt rejuvenated after waking. So it can be really hard

[00:12:08] [SPEAKER_00]: or adoptees to tolerate rest. So a real kind of sign that you know people are healing is

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that if they're resting more, they're resting more and when they do wake they feel rejuvenated.

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course the big one then sign, and again the big part that then is they're able to rest

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_00]: in relationships more. That relationships are not so kind of tiring and that taking actually

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_00]: feels kind of rejuvenated from relationships. Because often adoptees will you know in the context

[00:12:44] [SPEAKER_00]: of relationships will be absolutely exhausted after relationships because it's so much

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: effort and so much pressurizing themselves in relationships. So that's the fourth. The fifth thing is

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_00]: usually you know because of the adoption experience again and potentially you know

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_00]: to kind of see it's that kind of adoptees can be kind of familiar with is certainly anxiety,

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_00]: certainly kind of depression, something not knowing themselves, dissociation. And in a way then

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_00]: that becomes nearly the kind of safe stage even though it's a kind of an uncomfortable and familiar

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_00]: it becomes safe so they're kind of capacity or capacity to kind of feel you could see

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_00]: more expansive states like joy, like vitality, like a low-eiveness is very underdeveloped. So

[00:13:51] [SPEAKER_00]: when you kind of sort of you could say the kind of ability to kind of experience simple human

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00]: pleasure gets underdeveloped. So again the fifth part is that when adoptees kind of start

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_00]: you know being able to tolerate being a low-eave more, tolerate joy more,

[00:14:16] [SPEAKER_00]: tolerate feeling happy more you'll know it around the road to healing that. So they're five.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah okay wow can I take you back to the driver of these

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: of these signs yeah and you talked about reclaiming our embodied voice. So we've got

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_02]: you're alluding to a mismatch here between our truth and other people's truth.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Attention yeah. I was getting kind of a bit some vessel van de Colk as you were talking about this,

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_02]: as you were talking about the implicit memory and the trauma being stuck in our bodies.

[00:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah um a bit that I'd like to ask you about is it talks about reclaiming our embodied

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and embodied voice. Is that about speaking our truth rather than somebody else's truth? Is that

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_02]: about is that about putting words to what was previously preverbal is what?

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it can be board of them and like if you think of if you think of implicit memory

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_00]: implicit memory is made up of um bodily sensations it's going to be made up of

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_00]: it's made up of behavioral impulses it's made up of intentions. So the the experience of

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_00]: adoption you know as you're kind of nicely putting it is a kind of embodied experience.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_00]: So the body needs the so we have a kind of a story that you know there can be as you say

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_00]: it's misnature but it's it's a story that we get from someone else usually.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_00]: But the story of the body then is very different because if you think about it like

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_00]: if if adoption for for me was a very kind of traumatic experience it's so if it is a traumatic

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_00]: experience with the update then or body in response that I'd experience our experiences

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_00]: will organize in a very kind of particular way which which we then kind of need to live with

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_00]: so we kind of learn kind of various kind of protections and various strategies to kind of disconnect

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: from. So we so there's a story there's a very specific story in that organization

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_00]: that is always looking to be told and that that's going to be very individual for every person

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_00]: that might be you know that might be kind of sounds coming over your body

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: you know kind of three verbal screams that could that a dec kind of certainly

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00]: where I find a lot with me and if I'm not with the updates that can be a kind of a level of rage

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that can kind of feel very frightening that can be kind of deep kind of grief that can you know

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_00]: that's you know that's very kind of a liveening really but that can be really kind of buried

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_00]: at a very deep level inside us and when when these experiences start coming off

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_00]: there can be as you say kind of we can put words on experiences in order you know

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_00]: to it includes terror I think like I remember being in counseling for a long time and

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_00]: after many years in counseling I started getting panic attacks so it'll come out for each person

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_00]: in a very kind of different way and you have a you you have a very different story and that

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and it's a real kind of I think it's a real kind of honoring of that kind of baby part of us

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_00]: that kind of that has been kind of stuck in a kind of a different consciousness for a long time

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_00]: and he or she then will be able to tell her tell a different story to potentially what we've been told

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah so I'm getting story on a couple of different levels here as in stories like

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: tell me the story of your adoption but that story but I'm also getting the idea that the body is

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_02]: telling story through exactions absolutely and as you were talking about

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: how how and did you say how it is with yeah it could be kind of like often one of the things

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I hear is kind of people like no kind of primal screens that have been kind of trapped in the body

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: for a long time no that's again that's not everybody but you know that's not a good idea

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I I I done that yeah I remember a conversation with my my dad my doctor dad

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_02]: about a work issue a really tricky work of crisis yeah let's go because that's what it felt like

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_02]: it's time to make crisis and I I went to him for for help and he he sounded like he was listening

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_02]: and he made some suggestions and I said well that's not kind of work because of this this and this

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and this is probably 20 yes 24 25 years ago now this this happening but I still remember right

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_02]: and so he he kind of took my points on board and we moved on to some other ideas that we had

[00:21:11] [SPEAKER_02]: and then and then he brought it back round to the ideas that we'd already kind of put to one side

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and I remember a primal screen because of anguish at him not understanding

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_02]: you know and I can remember having one of those primal screens probably 10 to our years ago

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_02]: oh my I'm just walking just walking the dark when I was kind of very overloaded with

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know overwhelmed and overloaded about and confused about what I did next with the

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_02]: certain issue and I I get one of those on my head but then so it's funny and I also love primal screen

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_02]: the band right so you know I'm kind of getting that so this so you're talking about a story here

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: that our body's telling a story through a story through its actions that is not a

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_02]: verbal story so I'm guessing a lot of your work is somatic it's got big somatic base to it

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_00]: is that absolutely just see I think one of the one things I've found again for my own experience

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_00]: and I'm walking with people is that again potentially in a different set this is everybody but

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_00]: like the experience of adoption and the experience of kind of separation from our kind

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: of boat motor and you know depending on the context of our boat and a lot of things

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_00]: you know there's a part of us kind of trapped trapped in you know back there trapped in a different

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_00]: state of consciousness so you know you could kind of talk about it to the cause come home

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: and it would you know it would not know make any difference but you know where the part of us

[00:23:32] [SPEAKER_00]: that's trapped is embodied so in a way what we're doing is we're kind of helping you know over time

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_00]: and that part you know that part was to kind of find its you know find its way home and

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_00]: where in a way it's very kind of sacred because you know it's kind of interesting I remember I remember

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I did you know I I don't know if a lot of adulties would kind of relate to this but

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I would have a real kind of lack of recall for a lot of my childhood experiences there's a

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: lot gone you know the years that I have no kind of memory of and again that's not too unusual

[00:24:16] [SPEAKER_00]: for the people I walk with as well so I'd say people would probably relate to that but there's one

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00]: there's one thing I always remember I remember when I was kind of young I don't know

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I was probably only both era nine and I remember kind of watching this film and

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_00]: at the time I didn't had a language for this but in a way it kind of resonate and deeply with the film

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: and the film was it was by an active part you know I'm John Travolta and the film was called the boy in the

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_00]: bubble and the boy in the bubble is essentially about if I can remember correctly now about this guy

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_00]: he has this kind of illness where the ear outside you know if he gets too much the ear he does

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_00]: so the only way he can kind of stay a low is in a bubble and looking back I could really

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_00]: get to that so much because there was a power to me kind of stalking a bubble you know kind of

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: trapped you know trapped embodied in a kind of repressed and that's what the work is you know

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of healing for me is that we're trying to you know very gently and very kind of

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_00]: the way I kind of gently subtly and a very kind of maybe kind of titrated with as

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: as a word well we're helping the kind of boy to come over the bubble and and that's that's why

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_00]: you know somatic path to the work is it's kind of really kind of important because it because we

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_00]: you're where there can be you know there can be words and there can be kind of sounds so we're given

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_00]: that we're we're kind of releasing that kind of embodied kind of voice really so does this relate to

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and being more at large in the world rather than you know and your first comment you

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_02]: talk about mistrust of others yeah I'm gonna you know just to divine it but for me I'm gonna say

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: right I'm gonna stay in my bubble because I don't want to come out my bubble because I know trust you

[00:26:47] [SPEAKER_00]: yeah sorry my phone is gone after some reason energy same it no no no no no no yeah

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: after my apologies no it so we stay in the bubble because the bubbles safe yeah

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and and we don't want other other people coming into our bubble yeah because we're lacking

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_02]: in interest of them and maybe you know I never spoke to my dad about that primal screen moment

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I had within um we didn't touch on anything tricky you know which kind of

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: relates to his second point well no they you know deep but having it is the same point actually

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_02]: having a deeper conversation I don't I just don't think he I didn't that I'll tell that

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_02]: conversation and he clearly didn't he just took the warning sign and then we moved on we didn't

[00:28:02] [SPEAKER_02]: we never revisited that's that conversation so I'm mentioning I'm mentioning this quite a lot

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: at the moment on the podcast because it seemed something big for me and I've not really got my

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_02]: handle on it so I'd love your insight on this so this was something that I heard from

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Gabo Maté a couple of months ago when he said that the the the feeling of not being enough

[00:28:40] [SPEAKER_02]: feeling of being and were the feeling of being less than not sure exactly which would he use

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_02]: I'll maybe have something different but that sort of thing he said not feeling enough

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_02]: isn't actually a feeling it's a belief I believe that we're not enough yeah yeah and I'm wondering how

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_02]: how these two things how do you see these two things sitting together this this pre-verbal

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_02]: this pre-verbal non-verbal trauma that's non non-verbal apart from Raimals Green right

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that's that's stuck in our body that's embodied how that sits with this feeling of not being

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_02]: enough and do they does one come from the other how to how do these two things

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: sit sit together because ones really very visceral and the other one

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: seems to me anyway to be more cognitive to be more to do with thought yeah absolutely

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_00]: so like if you think about we're kind of explained it is that you think of if we go back to

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of implicit memory and if you think of like we give one kind of one example say if

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_00]: like if you think about the experience of adoption and one it wanted to kind of

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_00]: possibilities that you know and it happens to me and it happened to a lot of these is that

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_00]: there can be a lot of them there can be a lot of kind of dig emotions involved

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_00]: of not being like one of the things that I would kind of say it happens for adoptives

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_00]: that in my experience it either happens or the suddenly a perception of it happened in anyway

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_00]: is it's the experience of not being welcomed into the world yeah so when we're as a child

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: when we're not welcomed into the world the first kind of the first kind of reaction

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and said kind of an organic reaction you might call it kind of protest you'd have to try

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of protesting yeah you know kind of given those you know that they have a particular need

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_00]: whatever yeah and if the protest then is not mesh what usually happens the protest ramps of

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_00]: time go yeah and then if the anger is not mesh the the anger ramps up to rage yeah but it's not kind

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_00]: of it's not kind of sustainable for children or infants to kind of live in a kind of stage

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_00]: of kind of rage because it's you know it's just too this this regulate and from their body

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_00]: and as well then you know they can be afraid of kind of retaliation and so they kind of need to

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_00]: find you know one of the things that happens then so you have this kind of big feeling or rage

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_00]: or you might have a big feeling of you know grief or kind of sadness so children infants then

[00:32:44] [SPEAKER_00]: and children they need to find a way of kind of going on with life and not being connected

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_00]: to these big feelings, unappeeing connected to these you know whatever these impulses to we

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_00]: show sure yeah so the first survival response that's available to them Simon

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_00]: is that from a very young age we can kind of shut down yeah you're probably familiar with

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_00]: the polyvagal terri and so we have we have four different responses in our nervous system we

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_00]: have social engagement or safety we have five slides shut down yeah so we can shut down so

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_00]: young children will and you know adapties I come across this response a lot in adapties and

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I you know I notice for response very well myself so we start shutting down so we start shutting down

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_00]: that holy sympathetic charge of kind of rage or anger so that the shock don't end kind of

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_00]: a high activation when we have that shutdown so these responses of kind of fight flight and freeze

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_00]: are are only supposed to be used in kind of you know very kind of serious circumstances really

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_00]: life or death but what adapties will do they start using them kind of habitually just to kind of

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_00]: shut down them kind of early kind of overwhelming emotions and what happens then you know as we get

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_00]: older if you think about the if you think about then as we get older this is the latter this is unconscious

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_00]: it up these kind of you know one of the ways we kind of do is is true the body again of course

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_00]: so the body goes into kind of deep patterns of embracing deep patterns of kit of contraction

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_00]: deep patterns of shut down and then the developing personality the personality of the child when

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of cognition comes more online has to make kind of sense of this kind of disregulation

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_00]: and often you know again because of the immature kind of you know thinking capacity of children

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_00]: or you feel bad you know because it's so much disregulation in our body often translate

[00:35:42] [SPEAKER_00]: translates to iambad so what's essentially a kind of bodily kind of response no becomes a cognitive

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_00]: idea or a cognitive belief about ourselves so all this kind of disregulation in our body

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_00]: because of these earlier experiences of i feed bad becomes iambad so that's that's one way

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and the other thing that that often happens to infants again because of children because of

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_00]: their immature kind of thinking capacity is when winners say are parent or adopt a parent

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_00]: or not or whatever can't respond to us the child goes into what you might call is a kind of a

[00:36:39] [SPEAKER_00]: splitting dynamic so it children can kind of hold a complexity of emotion so often what children

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_00]: will do when the environment is not able to respond to their needs is they'd split the parent or

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_00]: caregiver between the good mother bad mother and themselves you know good child bad child

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: and again because we depend on our parents for so much it's much better for a child to be

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_00]: a bad child with good parents than to be a good child with bad parents so we we take on this

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: idea or belief about ourselves that we're bad because that kind of that lets us for hope

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00]: because you know our hope that we become good and the accepted end so so if you think about

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_00]: these kind of these kind of embodied experiences of kind of disregulation of distress

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: lead to these kind of ideas or these beliefs of all of such yeah that makes sense I think so and

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I can see bits bits of myself in there I'm I'm thinking what back to that word that you used

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_02]: reclaiming our embodied voice if that is the if that and it's a verb right like so like

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02]: healings of the reclaiming what what's the fuel that we use what what's our what's our fuel what's

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_02]: the driver what's the driver of our reclamation of our reclaiming the reclaiming this term

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_00]: and well you know I kind of think a two-ting straight away and like you know if you think of

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_00]: you know if you're if you're kind of when you're working with people say if you're working with

[00:39:11] [SPEAKER_00]: people that are you know adopted or kind of working with people with developmental trauma it's

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of easy it's easy to kind of see the woundedness and the kind of you know the kind of the

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_00]: heart parts of them but there's also the other side where we have it we have a huge kind of

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_00]: amount of what's called inherent health and inherent health in the way it means that we have

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_00]: huge biological and organic resources so we're we're like what's part of our biology like is that

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_00]: we always we always kind of orientate to the warmest possible relationships no matter how

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_00]: traumatized we've been when when that warm person that loving person turns off

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_00]: or kind of biology will stop orientated that so I think that's one driver in a sense of

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_00]: you know we have a lot of these organic resources that are always kind of

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_00]: bit like a flower if you think of a flower will always kind of orientate to what's

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_00]: sunlight yeah so or kind of or arc and is mix-self you might call always kind of looks is always

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_00]: looking for healing and always kind of looking certainly to kind of people that you know

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_00]: that can support that kind of healing because if you think about it you know I do a lot of work

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_00]: in an addiction and sometimes we you know in our society now you know and people have any kind of

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you know mental health problems like kind of anxiety or depression and you know sometimes

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_00]: you know certainly here now and there can be an an over a lion's hand medication

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_00]: but see one of the problems of medication and you know there's lots of kind of

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_00]: losses for medication but like medication kind of norms us but it can never normal

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_00]: fully because that that part of us that that part of us that you know wants to kind of live

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_00]: in the kind of myths of our birth drives it's always it's like a compass it's always looking

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_00]: it's always kind of looking for you know where where we kind of should be so I'd see that as kind

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_00]: of a big kind of driver and you know what sometimes you know I think the big

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know did you mean despite the question but I think there'd be kind of drivers well as

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_00]: that is something kind of I think around them relationships when we kind of um

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_00]: when we find relationships that where people can relate to us in a kind of a

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_00]: certain way can relate relate to us we're kind of a love and presence relate to us with

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_00]: gentleness with with warmth I think that kind of actualizes something in us as well that's a kind

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_00]: of a driver towards kind of health so I did I did the two of them yeah you've used the word consciousness

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_02]: and then and that work means different things to different people have you have you come across this

[00:43:13] [SPEAKER_02]: the David Hawkins scale of consciousness have you come across that? No okay

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: have you come across this that's well this idea that consciousness is the space in which our

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_02]: sensations and our feelings happen in the same way as the movie on a screen

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_02]: this it's none some people look at it this is what the guidance until the time at the moment

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_02]: is a gaggle-rupa spyra he's talking about it's it's being instead of focusing on the content

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_02]: of our experience we focus on the context of it that the knowing of it and

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_02]: is this is this ringing a bells and bells for you well I kind of use

[00:44:28] [SPEAKER_00]: consciousness in the kind of delx paid for myself like we had a conversation last week and

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I think you used the kind of term coming out of the fog yeah which is kind of a term that

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_00]: you know I hadn't heard that much before you know before and

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_00]: but for me coming out of the fog kind of started like in 54 and I probably wouldn't have

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_00]: spoken about 40 and it was kind of a visual experience it was ten years last time that

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_00]: all as far as I started seeing the world in a different way and I'm actually visually different

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_00]: in that if I met you kind of say 14 years ago when I'd been looking at you it would be like

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_00]: all of us were inside the steamer and often over the years it would feel that a bit like

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_00]: you know the bubble that there was some part of me kind of looking out of me from a different

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_00]: consciousness inside and and often what you know often what kind of happens you know I kind

[00:46:08] [SPEAKER_00]: of work with the dark deases that sometimes with adoption and with developmental trauma

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_00]: the experiences can be so kind of challenging and it can be so difficult you know difficult

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_00]: that sometimes you get adopted is that actually never in body you know that is just too kind

[00:46:32] [SPEAKER_00]: of painful to come into their bodies and what what happens is that they all the

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_00]: did often they have kind of access to consciousness is or kind of more you might call them

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_00]: esoteric realms that kind of normal folks don't have so that that's what I kind of mean by

[00:46:56] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of for me kind of consciousness really yeah so I had a unit of acarctolar yeah

[00:47:07] [SPEAKER_02]: so I was reading his book that the one of the big ones the power of now which I think he was

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_02]: his first big one and this would be maybe 20 years ago and and I was reading about his awakening

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_02]: and the following day I was sat in a I was on holiday in Turkey and and suddenly all

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_02]: there or all the colours were round round top right so like like kind of like when you change

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_02]: the colour knob on your television right so the blue went from an incipit blue to a really bright

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_02]: blue the at the sea the yellow of the the yellow of the because it was August and Turkey the

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_02]: yellow of the ground became far richer and more vibrant and I became aware of the sound of the

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_02]: blowing in the in the straw roof of the beach hot and and that was a shift that was a shift

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_02]: in my vision in the same way as talking as you had a shift in your vision so coming out

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_02]: the fog was wasn't just metaphorical for you it was actually it was a physical can it lived thing

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_02]: absolutely and I'm also thinking about a woman that I yeah I was I was sharing some

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_02]: some of my learnings this wasn't in their docks but but we were touching quite a space and she

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_02]: she had she was a Muslim and she had a headrest on and and traditionally you know like her

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_02]: hair ladies has important to me you're like in terms of that I don't like her because yeah in

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_02]: terms of that look you know like I think of some sort of the round or something you know as a kid

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_02]: and you know there's the dark hair and you know I always associate people's you know hair with that

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and what about her looks to me and she's she suddenly became vibrancy I was just talking

[00:49:52] [SPEAKER_02]: about some deep stuff some I called Tolis up or something like that and and she suddenly became you know

[00:49:59] [SPEAKER_02]: she she became kind of beautiful to me and she hadn't been before so there's this

[00:50:07] [SPEAKER_02]: altered different states of consciousness and that are very visual yeah and I hadn't heard

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_02]: anybody express it like that before so let me try one of this kind of this group of Sparrow

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Guy and Matt's for that would be similar to what if what he would say and I've

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_02]: your opinion on this right so I love to look at the metaphors and then extend it right so when we

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_02]: when we come out of the fog what what did you what did you see when you came out of the the fog

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_00]: and it was kind of like by by story is kind of it's very interesting and I'd love to

[00:51:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd love to I haven't had anybody kind of I'm sure there are people so if anybody is

[00:51:18] [SPEAKER_00]: listening on the call and they have experiences like I had please contact me because it's really nice

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_00]: to have a kind of a soap group of people that you can identify with but comment out of the fog was

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_00]: was problematic for me in a sense of that and I don't know if you if you kind of

[00:51:48] [SPEAKER_00]: if you have ever heard of a therapy called internal family systems so I have asked and

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I know if I have them a term called internal voice so when I started coming out of the fog

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_00]: about 40 I started hearing a lot of internal voices there up to that point in my life I had never heard

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_00]: so I would I would hear I'm going to kill myself I would hear I want to die

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I would hear I'm going to kill you you bastard yeah and and even though you know so

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_00]: up to that point in my life up to 40 I had you know challenges like a lot of adulties can't have

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_00]: but you know suicidal ideation was never a part of my life so here I was like and I'd be

[00:52:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd be sitting down with clients and if someone was my client I'd be kind of sitting across

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_00]: from Simon and next to what I'd hear and side myself I'm going to I'm going to kill myself

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I wish you a dead your bastard and I'd start getting these images then very um

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_00]: very kind of volume and images so I'd get images of babies being chopped up and kind of

[00:53:20] [SPEAKER_00]: thrown into a furnace something that you know I'm really sure I probably never saw but they were

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of probably more kind of symbolic kind of implicit memory um so some so that would

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_00]: be what kind of challenges you know they were kind of real kind of challenges because I didn't have

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_00]: them I didn't kind of have a subgroup you know people that could kind of relate to that and you

[00:53:51] [SPEAKER_00]: know and you see you couldn't tell that everybody because I told it to some people and they kind

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_00]: of framed it in the way that I was kind of psychiatric that was here in voices but I knew that

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_00]: wasn't a case because you know so that was that was part of me coming over the fog um

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I decomminow the fog was kind of difficult as well because um even at 40 and you know years after

[00:54:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I had 10 years of counseling behind me and then suddenly I started getting panic attacks

[00:54:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and for years that's a constant I didn't need to understand panic attacks because I never had them

[00:54:38] [SPEAKER_00]: because I was so kind of I kind of shut down so much I think in my younger life that I was kind

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_00]: of in this what you might call it kind of a functional freeze but after both I always kind of laugh with

[00:54:52] [SPEAKER_00]: with my wife because maybe after about I did not 15 years of counseling I started getting

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_00]: panic attacks I started experiencing kind of levels that kind of terror that I had never experienced in my

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_00]: life like it and I actually thought that I was going to die that was kind of all over for me

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_00]: and even though I'd lots of experience of counseling a lot of counseling behind me you know

[00:55:20] [SPEAKER_00]: for the bone probably last several four months was very kind of how to see the wood for the trees

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_00]: so so they were definitely kind of um experiences that were um what would would difficult

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_00]: um but I think coming out of the fog as well um was kind of there was a lot of kind of really

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of rich experiences in a sense that you know I began to be able to tolerate kind of you know

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_00]: shifts with people having more meaning for relationships with people kind of you know

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of getting a try around me in a way that could kind of support my kind of development

[00:56:14] [SPEAKER_00]: so I did there did there be somebody experiences

[00:56:18] [SPEAKER_02]: so I mean it took about a subgroup on so there's an American what was the adoption podcast that

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_02]: she's an adopted mum and uh she called Bath Silicem and she just released a book with a co-authors

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_02]: right so different people have wrote written different chapters and it's called I think it's

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_02]: called adopted opportunities and so it's so exciting something like that so um I'm saying that

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_02]: listeners in case you haven't heard of that and you want to you want to check that book out

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and you want to check her out so she's called Bath Silicem as a say adoptive mum and

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the podcast is called unraveling, unraveling adoption so that might be worth listen that might be

[00:57:06] [SPEAKER_02]: worth you looking at um I can make an instruction if you want that too she's great lady

[00:57:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and then I would have worked with the listeners looking at

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I think you know that so they coming out of the folk was very

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_02]: is it's becoming aware of the trauma and our brains maybe of

[00:57:34] [SPEAKER_02]: our bodies or whatever it's been hidden we haven't we haven't seen it and then it kind of comes up

[00:57:40] [SPEAKER_02]: that's why it's so violent it's like a yeah and a job.

[00:57:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Alinch for people really Simon then said you know see even therapy the

[00:57:53] [SPEAKER_00]: updates will often go to therapy and they might actually get more kind of symptomatic in therapy

[00:58:00] [SPEAKER_00]: so like because like if you think about it one of the primary ways that I see you know adopt

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_00]: these corp in this by going into that kind of deep kind of collapse shut down response and then

[00:58:13] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of the dissociative kind of lifestyle comes with that and you see you know what good

[00:58:21] [SPEAKER_00]: therapy will do is it'll start kind of supporting you to come out of the kind of

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_00]: the dissociative kind of shut down response but the challenge and that is that as you come

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_00]: you will meet everything that puts you into it in the first place.

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And for me that's a gallery.

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a gallery.

[00:58:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Terrifying yeah and a panic in the you know very high levels of kind of fear and you know

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_00]: so that can be an energy impact of the process really.

[00:58:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So how would you put what you just shared there?

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for sharing that.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_02]: It's powerful very powerful.

[00:59:03] [SPEAKER_02]: So how would you put that with the you know this essential idea that you started out with

[00:59:09] [SPEAKER_02]: of reclaiming our embodied narrative? How would you wrap those two things together?

[00:59:17] [SPEAKER_00]: By the way the seat in a way is how I'd wrap on together as they were

[00:59:22] [SPEAKER_00]: claiming or embodied voice also potentially means reclaiming or families embodied voice.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So the generational trauma, exactly.

[00:59:38] [SPEAKER_00]: The generational trauma so like who like for me who's that voice? Who's

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_00]: device the one that wants to kill themselves because you know suicide

[00:59:53] [SPEAKER_00]: ideation has never been part of my life.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So who's the one that wants to die and you know I can be fairly sure

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_00]: that that's my board murder and that's my kind of you know grand murder because my

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_00]: grand murder and what I found out later spent a lot of our life in an asylum.

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_00]: So you can imagine the despair of you know live you know kind of spend your life in a kind

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_00]: of psychiatric hospital especially at that time and then my murder was so kind of wounded.

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_00]: So potentially you know so that's how we wrap it up you know when you grow up to get your own

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: and value voice your your reclaiming device of those who went before you as well.

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Which is very powerful but you know very difficult.

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Painful yeah at the same time um I actually saw a book on

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_02]: generational trauma the other day and I thought should I have a you know a dive into that or not

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and I decided I decided not to. Have you seen anything on that?

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm thinking I might give it another go actually if you see I'm a book on generational trauma.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I have I have a good few but I leave I can't think of them no I'm probably definitely that's good.

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay and if you I'll I'll add them to the show notes.

[01:01:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry if any listeners want to dive into that dive into that yeah.

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Cool wow. Thank you very much.

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry I was always listening to check out the show notes for a link to to Liam and

[01:01:35] [SPEAKER_02]: website and stuff and but before I finish I just want to ask thank you again

[01:01:42] [SPEAKER_02]: and also just ask you is there's something that's you want to share the I've not asked you about.

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And well I think the the earlier the two things that I share that is kind of

[01:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: think we touched on them and I think you know if I look back and if I think it's kind of

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_00]: different consciousness and one of the things if we have a part of ourselves in a different

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of consciousness then we need to kind of watch or kind of rhythm and often you know

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: especially a rhythm of contact with people so often the updates will kind of go

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: to fast true life, to fast true relationships so I'd say kind of find find your rhythm you know

[01:02:38] [SPEAKER_00]: just it seemed to be really important for me you know because we can go kind of too fast or too slow

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_00]: as a kind of a protection but really kind of find in your rhythm that would be one thing and

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_00]: the other thing I'd say that again this at the top of myself and kind of a lot of people I work with

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_00]: them with this errorly kind of trauma there can be a lot of we can have a lot of kind of

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_00]: hostility inside yourself a lot of kind of rage a lot of hostility some of it can be a role

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_00]: on a bow or hop into us and we can you know internalize some of it from the environments we've been in as

[01:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: well and I think and some of that can be very kind of covert that we can kind of

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_00]: protection we can come across it's very kind of pleasing and very you know easy go on but you

[01:03:33] [SPEAKER_00]: know the hostility can be really kind of very deep I think in the dark days and what I'd say about

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_00]: that is that you know that's very normal and we want to be kind of really kind of acknowledging

[01:03:44] [SPEAKER_00]: that and kind of bringing that out more not kind of an acting out where but when there's so much hostility

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_00]: when there's so much rage we can act that in again stuff itself and it can kind of really

[01:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: make us very kind of physically sick so I'd say you know as much as possible let's say again

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_00]: support what that is really important and kind of trying to let that go as much as possible

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_00]: and is really important as well because it really I think it really kind of gets in in the way

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_00]: of having kind of healthy relationships you know that kind of level of hostility that we can

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_00]: kind of carry so we could do another whole podcast and that's something but let's do that yeah

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: just one question is just popped into my head because you mentioned IFS we've done quite a lot

[01:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: of conversations with IFS about IFS without IFS coaches and stuff recently

[01:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm just wondering if you can you talked about this inherent our inherent health being a driver

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_02]: and I think that's that might be a really good topic if we're if you're up for doing another podcast

[01:05:04] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe next year it is there anyway that you can put the the uppercase ASS of IFS

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_02]: our true self our essence what some people might call spirit what other people might call consciousness

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: is does does that sit with in does that uppercase as self does that sit with inherent health

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_00]: for you or a different it is you know what it does because inherent health is kind of a bit like

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_00]: inherent or what's our gannoginus and and self they talk about in IFS if you're in self

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_00]: you're responding to your respondent to yourself and you're spending other people with kind of

[01:05:54] [SPEAKER_00]: qualities like compassion curiosity up for the end you know all these and these are all kind of organic

[01:06:04] [SPEAKER_00]: qualities and it's all part of our inherent health but when we've been traumatized then

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_00]: you know to deal with the trauma in a way we kind of disconnect from the trauma but we are

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_00]: so disconnect from our inherent health so to stop in the way so it's exactly it's exactly the same

[01:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: thing okay so the trauma and upscores there in inherent health yeah we have to see we have to

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: adapt to the trauma and one of the ways we adapt to traumas by disconnecting but unfortunately

[01:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: we disconnect from the trauma but we also disconnect what's organic in us and what's you know

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and nobody's told us about this inherent health yeah and nobody's told us about this

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: uppercase that self until we stumble upon IFS room absolutely well in inherent health is a very

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_00]: very powerful idea because it really kind of means no matter how traumatized you become

[01:07:17] [SPEAKER_00]: that you're you don't lose what's kind of organic in you and that that's why

[01:07:24] [SPEAKER_00]: you know you see even see people on medication that they have to keep going on more and more

[01:07:29] [SPEAKER_00]: medication a lot at the time because in inherent health is always trying to come true like no matter

[01:07:35] [SPEAKER_00]: no matter how like even if you look at it no matter how long we've been in these kind of states

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: fight flight or freeze or biology prefers as a preference for safety and social engagement

[01:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: so with the right conditions meet in the right person or in inherent health will start coming true

[01:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: so it's a it's a real in hand held as a real kind of awful idea yeah

[01:08:02] [SPEAKER_02]: the you mentioned flowers earlier on and the image came to mind mind is I remember having

[01:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: the the front of our drive time at when I was a kid and I love the smell of time at

[01:08:17] [SPEAKER_02]: for some reason time I can create so extra and I don't want to say anything but I remember seeing

[01:08:23] [SPEAKER_02]: a flower you know there's this this this how many tons and how the thick this layer of

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: time like what's I don't know or inches thick maybe and and the flower like the tiny little

[01:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: flower that burst through the time like and that was the that was the that's for the

[01:08:46] [SPEAKER_00]: came to mind mind is you talking about this and how that exactly that kind of attack can be like

[01:08:51] [SPEAKER_00]: no matter how much the trauma is there that that in hand tells to always it's always kind of

[01:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: looking for yeah this kind of an you know it's a kind of like an organic intelligence really

[01:09:07] [SPEAKER_02]: and yeah and the the inherent health I'm also thinking about the idea that a lot of early

[01:09:18] [SPEAKER_02]: but what's the paradigm so he comes from a sickness mental health came from a

[01:09:25] [SPEAKER_02]: with with mental sickness wasn't that you know like physical physical health was about sickness and disease

[01:09:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and that model came across to to the mental state so it was about mental disease and

[01:09:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and it's it's not about that anymore it's about mental health and inherent health it's a change

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: of the paradigm and an a function of what's gone before absolutely absolutely brilliant thanks Lim

[01:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll have to go because I have to collect my way from shopping

[01:10:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Cheers Lim thank you bye again and lovely talk to you Simon