Our Wholeness Under The Trauma With Trisha Priebe and Rich Metcalfe

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by not one but two repeat guests, Rich and Trisha from Lifeline. Lifesong! Lifesong, right? We love Lifeline too so that's okay. Yeah, because Herbie's been on from Lifeline, you know Herbie? Oh yes. Great, great guy. So yeah, I've got my Lifesongs mixed up with my Lifelines, but yeah, here we are.

[00:00:31] Yeah, many people do that so don't worry about that. I've been out for lunch, but I must say that I had alcohol free beer, so I can't even blame it on a pint of beer because it was zero percent. Rich and Trisha, so you back on the show on me three years ago, something like that.

[00:00:59] And one of the things that I've been seeing more and more of, and a friend of mine put a metaphor to this, right? He said that pendulums have a habit of swinging too far, right? That's how it goes.

[00:01:20] And my feel is that we've gone from trauma informed and trauma responsive to trauma obsessed when it would be a lot more hopeful, helpful and beneficial if we were to actually see our wholeness, right?

[00:01:45] See our wholeness under the trauma. And you guys leapt at a chance to debate this. So I'm interested to see how you see this. And as a lover of metaphors, I get the feeling that you guys might have some metaphors for that too. So yeah, I guess ladies first, right?

[00:02:14] Always. I mean, two English gentlemen, what are we going to do? Two English gentlemen with an American lady. Trisha, what comes to mind when you hear this? I'm going to be the most polite interview ever. I actually, I love the pendulum picture because I think that for a long time, and I'm a fellow adoptee. I don't know if you remember that as well.

[00:03:08] Yeah, I do. I think that as well. I think that as well, I think that as well. I think that as well, I think that as well. I think that as well, that pendulum did need to swing a little bit, but I think now it has swung a little too far the other direction so that in our over correction, I think sometimes we've started defining adoptees only by their loss and only by, I shouldn't say their loss, our loss, right?

[00:03:32] And our trauma or whatever pain has come with our story. And I just think there's danger in that too. If we spend too much time focused on our grief or our pain or our loss, now we're defining adoptees as a tragedy, right?

[00:04:23] And before we hit record, we were comparing eyeglasses, right? Spectacles, glasses. And Trisha has these really cool ones on. Rich is pretty run of the mill and so are mine, right?

[00:04:39] But we are talking about our focus here. And when I think about focus, I think about magnifying glasses or magnifying glass. And what we focus on gets bigger.

[00:05:02] And that's the truth, right? That is the truth. That is the truth, whether you are just putting out there like a metaphor or whether you are looking at it from a neuroscience perspective. Isn't there some saying like what the cells that fire together wire together? You know, this isn't just Simon spouting metaphors.

[00:05:29] This is the truth of our focus and how our brains work and things like confirmation bias. So what the thinker thinks, the prover proves.

[00:05:47] Yeah. And as that pendulum has swung and we've discussed it and it's become more common language and thought and exploration within the adoption community, but it's swung way past the adoption community. And trauma is a current community word and communal word, isn't it? I get kind of frustrated when I hear, as mentioned in Mr. Tricia earlier, you know, school kids, not just school kids.

[00:06:14] You know, they're having a trauma day because they run out of toothpaste or they're dealing with trauma because they scuffed their shoes in the, in the, oops. Sorry. Someone mowing the, mowing the grass outside my window. I apologize for that noise. But, but the trauma of scuffing your shoes in the, in the, on the way into school and having to deal with that.

[00:06:41] But trauma has gone way too far and being taken way out of context. And as you said earlier, we're not denying trauma. It's absolutely real. It's healing in the hope for trauma. We know that, but the person, it is the kid. And we've got to let the trendy word of trauma disappear. Yeah. Down the river while we deal with the people.

[00:07:09] Rich, could you just come a little bit closer to the, to your, to your screen? I just feel, I've just got a feeling that the, the volume's just dropped, dropped off a lot of it. Thanks. Thanks, Rich. And thanks listeners. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. Trauma has become hackneyed and, and, and over, and over, overused.

[00:07:33] And I think in common with like the word mental health, that mental health was supposed to be about, we're supposed to be moving, moving from mental disease or a disease model to a health model. But that hasn't really, that hasn't really happened.

[00:08:00] And everything now is seen as a mental health issue and the, the, the, the really tough stuff. Well, we, we're crying wolf, aren't we? That's the danger that we face. We, we, we, we, we, we face the danger of crying wolf. So everything becomes trauma. Everything becomes a mental health issue.

[00:08:26] And, and it's, it's, it's like, it's, for me, it's almost a bit about the kind of, the catastrophization of feelings. Um, what a, uh, a mentor of mine talks about emotophobia. We, we, we become, we've become allergic to feeling bad. And, and, and obviously we've got these smartphones.

[00:08:56] So even if we're bored, we can, we're like, we, we can't stand a little bit of boredness, right? We, if there's a break, then we're, we're on our, we're on our, our phones. Um, and I was looking back at the last conversation that we had together and it was the, the, the, the shrapnel of shred, the shrapnel of shame.

[00:09:21] And isn't that, uh, isn't that another slightly catastrophizing view of this, right? Um, definitely connected. Yep. So maybe even then we were, uh, over, over dramatizing it for the sake of me, right? Over dramatizing it for the sake of the, the, the, uh, for the sake of a catchy title for the pot.

[00:09:48] But so what, what does wholeness mean for you guys? And again, if we could start with Tricia first. I think, you know, I, first of all, I love that you're asking what is wholeness because I think so much of this discussion in general comes back to definitions. Um, even what, how are we defining trauma? Um, how are we defining shame from our previous conversation? How are we defining these things?

[00:10:17] Um, we could, we could be disagreeing in our conversation because we define things differently, not because we necessarily are agreeing or disagreeing on principle. Um, in my mind to be whole is to lack nothing in terms of, um, physical, mental, spiritual, emotional, um, needs are being met.

[00:10:46] That doesn't mean, by the way, when you're talking about, um, when you're talking about the inability to be bored, for example, or the inability to face difficult feelings. Um, part of being whole is not the elimination of hard feelings or hard situations. It's the fact that we respond to them properly.

[00:11:10] So we're never going to get to a point in a broken world where we don't have bad days or difficult, you know, experiences or hard things to process. The point though is, are we responding to them in a way that a healthy individual will? Um, and so I think you're whole when you are able to, um, experience or metabolize a difficult situation correctly.

[00:11:36] Um, one of the definitions that I like of trauma is actually, um, a definition that, and I should have written this down, but the idea isn't what we experience. It's how we respond to that experience. Does it get stuck within us or are we able to see it for what it is and respond to it correctly? Um, and I'm sure Rich could expound on that. What are your thoughts, Rich?

[00:12:04] Oh, I don't know if you threw me a softball or a rocket. That one, I don't know. Um, I want to go back to wholeness first, but I think you're right. I mean, as far as, as far as that definition of trauma is concerned, um, I think, um, I think you're right. That perspective is always important. Um, what, what are we going to fixate on? As Simon said earlier, what are we going to focus on? We focus too narrowly. We're consumed by the, the only thing we can see and we've lost all perspective.

[00:12:33] Um, and we have to keep perspective. And for, for those who have suffered legitimate trauma, they may need some help with perspective and remembering that what has been done to them, what they have experienced is not an identifier. They were and are and can still be hope. Um, and, and, and live a life that is full in spite of, but a lot of times we need a little

[00:13:02] help refocusing and we need to be willing to help others refocus, which means we have to have the right perspective ourselves too. Simon, it looks like you're about to say something. Yeah. Um, I just want to jump on the identifier thing. You use this word identifier. Like what, what we're saying is we are not our trauma.

[00:13:30] Our trauma does not identify us. There is a difference between the form of the trauma that we feel and the wholeness of what we are. And I would say that trauma hides our essence. It doesn't harm our essence.

[00:13:56] So our, our wholeness is revealed. Our wholeness is revealed. Like when we take, uh, when we take a heavy coat off, uh, uh, uh, Trisha's, uh, had some bad, uh, uh, an okay winter, but a tough, tough spring instead of terms of storms. Right. So when we take off, when we take off our, if trauma was a coat, a heavy coat, um, our essence

[00:14:25] is revealed when we take off the, the, the coat and then the jumper and then, uh, and then the undergarments, you know, like the, maybe, maybe some sort of like fine gauge thermal stuff that we've got underneath. Right. So, you know, maybe, maybe trauma is using that. We could, we could use, uh, trauma as the, you know, the heavy part of the trauma might be some, some shame. Right.

[00:14:52] The, the, the mid layer might be, uh, maybe some fear, right. Fear of future rejection. Um, and the, the, the, the, the, the base layer may be, I don't know what, what would the base layer be? Some anxiety perhaps. Right. So the, the, the, the body is, uh, our wholeness is revealed. It's hidden by those, those layers of, those layers of trauma.

[00:15:21] And therefore we, we're talking about unpacking or de-layering, undressing, undressing our trauma to reveal the pristine wholeness of, of, of who we are. Um, and I'm, I'm, I'm identifying here trauma as like a felt, a felt sensation, a felt sensation

[00:15:50] in the body and it's very feeling, it's very feeling, you know, it's something that we, we, we feel. And, but what we're saying is our feelings aren't, don't identify us. Our trauma doesn't identify us. So the not an identifier thing is, is the absolute crutch of the matter here, Rich.

[00:16:18] I think that identify, I really just wanted to, to, to jump on that. We are dis, dis identifying from our trauma. Yeah. I mean, the, uh, the identifier, the feelings part of it, it's real, but to, to use a different analogy, it's, it's the caboose on the train. It's not the engine and it's, it's not the truck full of coal. It's going to power the engine.

[00:16:45] It's, it's part of the train, but it's the caboose and we don't live in the caboose. Um, and we, we need not to, and at some point maybe we can just disconnect it and let it disappear as the train moves down the track. Yeah. Um, so what's a caboose? It's the, it's the last, the last bit of a train, Simon. Okay. You know, you've got a steam engine. Yeah. And then you've got your, you've got your carriages behind it to keep going. Right. And then you've got your passenger bits or your cargo bit. And at the back is your caboose. Okay.

[00:17:15] Legitimate part of the train, but it's like, no, it's not going to run things, but that's where the feelings are stuck in. They're real, but they don't, they don't create truth. And they will be, they, they are at the back of the train and that they're, they're at the bottom of our limbic system. Is it, are they, are they in the reptilian bit? Is that, is that. I don't want to go too deep into that. So I'm, I don't know. Cause. Could I actually, could I actually build on Simon?

[00:17:43] One of the things you said, we're talking about identity and you and I know, actually all three of us know that identity is such an important component of the adoption conversation and in the lives of adoptees. And I think that it's human nature for individuals to want to build an identity around a wound, right? Whether we have, whether we're adopted or not, it's easy to build an identity around that

[00:18:10] to almost, to identify, you know, there are individuals who might identify as a divorcee or an individual who might identify as a wounded adoptee, or it's easy to build an identity there. In recent years though, Simon, I've really started to dig in on what is identity? Like what is actually identity?

[00:18:34] Identity and I have come to a pretty solid determination that I believe identity is something about you that cannot be changed by any other human being. So as soon as someone else can do something to change something about me, that thing is not my identity. Like I have a great marriage. I'm thankful for it. I'm a mother. I'm thankful for it. I love my role. We were talking about today's an anniversary of work anniversary for me. I love life song.

[00:19:02] None of those things though are my identity. I believe my identity comes down to who made me, who loves me, who do I belong to? And as a Christian, then I believe that those things are settled. I believe God made me. I believe God loves me. I believe I belong to God. And that to me is my identity because it cannot be changed by any human being.

[00:19:27] So as soon as something can be changed, you know, if I built an identity around our friendship and you got mad at me and that thing ended, then wow, where did my identity go? You know, but if my identity cannot be changed by others, then I am secure and I don't need all of these other layers of things in order to have an identity and a secure identity. So I don't know if that's, I think studying identity and getting really certain on what

[00:19:56] that is, is such an important component for this issue of being whole that we're discussing. I love that. I love that, Tricia. And I'm with you. Not as a religious person, I would use the diamond metaphor for who we are, right? So instead of being one of God's children, perhaps, if that's how you, you know, God made you, God loves you, you belong to God, right?

[00:20:25] One of God's children. Is that kind of what you would say? Is that, would that be fair enough? Yes, that's how, yep. Yep. So I would, I would go with a non-religious view. So the diamond. And probably when we did the podcast last, we hadn't got the diamond, the Thriving Adoptee's diamond as the logo, right? But that's, that's there intentionally. That, that's a signifier, right?

[00:20:52] So when we think that our identity is trash or rubbish or garbage, right? That, that's one of the challenges that we have. You know, we were discarded. We weren't good enough, these sorts of things, right? That the diamond is a direct counter to, to, to, to that perception, that self-perception that's in some, some adoptees' heads and hearts.

[00:21:18] The bit that I, so I'm, I'm with you. I'm just using a different meaning, I guess, different metaphor. And I'm definitely with you on the unchangeable nature of it, right? So what doesn't change? Yeah.

[00:21:38] So it's the difference between I am traumatized and I feel trauma, right? How, how are we, you know, who are we before we're triggered, right? Who are, so before we're triggered, we're at peace and then there's an explosion, right? Then there's an explosion.

[00:22:08] So, so we're, we're the peace and, and the, uh, and the explosion is, is the, uh, the anger, the trauma response that sits on top of the peace and it, and it drowns, it drowns out the peace, right? The one minute that, that, that I am, one minute I am happy, the next minute I am triggered,

[00:22:35] the next minute I am missing my birth mother, the next minute I am hungry. That, that is the I am, it's the I am that is constant, uh, and the, the, the feelings, our feelings change. Um, and as I think about this, uh, something pops into my head from a teacher that I listened to who does explore religious elements.

[00:23:04] Um, and didn't, uh, didn't God say to Moses, I am the I am or something like that. Did he? God did say that to Moses. Correct. Yep. So we, we're talking about the I am-ness. We're talking about the being and the, uh, the, the feeling comes, the feeling, the label, anything that changes comes after the, comes after the being.

[00:23:33] It, it isn't our being. Now this makes perfect sense to me, but I'm beginning to think, I'd love to hear whether it makes sense to you guys. Well, we'd agree with you that God said I am, but he didn't say that we. We are. Um, he, we would say he, because we honestly believe that he made us, um, that means we're not God.

[00:24:01] Um, so when I get triggered, when I hear someone saying I am, I am, because no, God is the only I am. Right. And he made us, but that gives us an identity that is way more secure than anything we can cook up for ourselves or hope for ourselves or dream for ourselves. And I love that you, um, one of the things that, that drew me to this conversation was you saying, um, there's more, there's this underneath this rather than the trauma, because

[00:24:30] growing up in England, as you did, um, some teacher told me Darwin was right. Um, and that, that we just evolved, um, over time because of a series of maladaptions and problems, basically traumas. Well, if that is true, then we should celebrate the trauma, focus on the trauma, dive into the trauma because it's what makes us better. But what you've said in, in, in this conversation and what we feel is that that's not actually

[00:24:58] all that we are, that there's more that yes, there's brokenness and there's hurt and there's suffering in the world. Some inflicted on us and some self-inflicted and some just from a broken world. But we are more than that. We were more than that. We will be more than that. And that speaks to the God who made us for more than that, not to us being everything in ourselves, because if, if Darwin was right, the trauma is to be celebrated because it's

[00:25:28] what gives us uniqueness and power, but it's actually not. The truth is God has made us to understand our identity, which is to understand and know him. And suffering in the world is something we cannot get away with. In fact, you know, Jesus told us in this world, you will suffer. You will have trouble, but take heart because I've overcome the world. That suffering, enduring suffering in the right way produces perseverance and perseverance

[00:25:55] produces character and character produces hope and hope will not put us to shame because it brings us to our creator and it allows us to fully understand our identity. I like your diamond picture because it reflects like crazy, but even the most beautiful diamond, somebody has chiseled it and shaped it. It didn't come that way. I love a pearl because it is perfect just the way you find it. And I think that's true of every person.

[00:26:22] Now there's, like you said, those outer layers, those garments of trauma that have been laid on somebody that they can be shed. They can be taken off because the overcoat of trauma doesn't define the person. That perfect pearl diamond for your analogy is still inside. And we can peel off that because there is a great I am who made each one of us to know that and know him.

[00:26:52] Love it, Rich. Love it. I was working on a presentation for tomorrow this morning and an image popped into my head. There's a Japanese art where they, have you seen this, where they put gold? They fix a broken vase with gold. And that, that seems to me, that was the, that was the metaphor that popped into my head

[00:27:21] when you were talking about how Darwin would see it. That, you know, that it's stronger because of, it's stronger because of the gold that now glues it together. And at first glance, that kind of seems right, but it's, it's not for me. It's more like, I think that we're more like a rubber ball, right? We, we, because we bounce, we bounce back.

[00:27:51] Bounce back. We're not, we're not broken. We weren't broken and then put together with, put together with this gold like these Japanese sculptures are. We were, we weren't broken by, by the bounce. We, we bounced, we bounced back. That's kind of the, that, that's what post-traumatic growth is.

[00:28:21] It's bouncing back. It's bouncing back higher. It's not about being broken and gluing, gluing, gluing ourselves together. It's about where, so I, I often say that we're, we're, we're unwounded because we are unwoundable.

[00:28:46] Or in this, in this instance, I would say we're unbroken. We are whole because we are unbreakable. A rubber ball can't be broken. If you drop a rubber ball, you drop it off a rubber ball off, off the mantelpiece. It's going to bounce back. If you drop it off a 66 story building, it's going to bounce back.

[00:29:17] And the reason I'm thinking that because my, my sister was telling me at lunch that one of her friends did a zip wire in Dubai from a 66 story building. Good for them. Right. So if you drop that, if you drop that rubber ball off the 66 story building, it's still going to bounce. It's, it's, it's nature to bounce. It doesn't need to go on a, it doesn't need to go on a course, how to bounce back. Right.

[00:29:46] It's in its nature. It doesn't need to develop its bounce back skills. It doesn't need to think about all the lessons in the past that it's had that allows it to bounce back. It's in its nature to, to, to, to bounce back. And you talked, you, but you've talked about a broken, broken society. Part of, part of a broken society is, is our fixation on the negative.

[00:30:14] It's our kind of like the newspaper people used to say, if, if it bleeds, it leads. Right. Talking about wounds. If it bleeds, it, it leads. We need shock value. We need shock value to break people out of their daydream and get, get us to want to buy their newspapers.

[00:30:37] And, and, or with on social media these days, it's the, it's the same thing in, it's all about the, it's all about the headline so that Mr. Zuckerberg can sell us more efforts so that their ad revenues go up. So that, so that, so that, so that everybody gets what they want in that capitalist system. So, Simon, would you say then like, if an adopt, if you're talking to an adoptee who is struggling

[00:31:07] or is your response to that, that you're not actually struggling, that that's a facade? Like, how do you respond to the one who is having a difficult time? Like what would be your... Well, I wouldn't, I wouldn't tell them, I wouldn't talk to them like I'm talking to you. Okay. I, I, I would illustrate through my own story and try and share what I learned.

[00:31:34] I wouldn't make their, I wouldn't, I wouldn't make their experience wrong or I wouldn't make their experience incorrect or victimy at all. I would, I would, I would share to the best of ability what I had learned.

[00:32:01] And hope, hope to get to a place of peace from that. But there's no such thing as a secondhand insight. I, I, I can't, I can't make none, none of us can make anybody see stuff for themselves. We, they have, we all have to see stuff. There's no such thing as a secondhand insight. We have to have them.

[00:32:30] We have to have them for ourselves. And we've, we've, when you go back to the kind of the broken, sorry, I was, I was away there. Does that make sense? What, how would you, how would you answer that question? How would you? I love the fact, first of all, I, I sent your heart for being gracious and empathetic, and

[00:32:59] I would never want to add to an adoptee's, you know, grief as they're working through things. I think we agree on that. I am inclined to say in terms of how, you know, you talked about feelings earlier, for example. Um, I'm inclined to believe that we cannot be both our biggest problem and our greatest solution within ourselves.

[00:33:25] Um, so my feelings, for example, either don't actually need to be changed or I need to find something outside of myself that can help change me, who can help change. I, I think I cannot be both my greatest threat and my biggest solution. Um, and so I'm inclined to say when I am struggling, I have to look outside of myself for someone, you know, to pull me up out of that.

[00:33:55] Um, but I know, I mean, I, I hear what you're saying and I, and I'm still kind of trying to process it, but I, I do think our, our, and I don't even mean saving and the necessary, you know, that's a Christian term. Um, you hear people talk about saving and I think that's legitimate, but I even just the act of saving, the act of reaching down and pulling someone out of something. I don't think we can do that for ourselves. I'm inclined to believe, um, we need something or someone outside of us to, to help with that.

[00:34:25] Um, but I do like your, um, your view toward resilience. I do think we are probably more resilient than we want to believe, uh, in the adoption community. Um, and I do, I, one other little piece I've picked up on, on listening to you is how important language is. How do we describe people? Are we, you know, to say, um, she has traumatized versus she has experienced trauma are two different things.

[00:34:54] So I, I do see, I am tracking with you on some of these different pieces. Um, so thank you for your thoughts on that. Yeah. Rick? Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm still thinking about your ball being dropped off that 66 stories and recognizing that yes, it's going to bounce, but it's going to compress awfully flat. If we could get a slow-mo video on that ball, as it hits the ground before it bounces back, it's going to be changed by what it's, what it's experienced.

[00:35:25] It's physically very changed, right? It's not going to be round anymore when it hits the ground, but in, in reshaping and growing back out of it, it's, it's, it's, it's bouncing back higher. It's, it's being more of a rubber ball. It's not suddenly become a balloon that popped. It's still a ball and it can bounce, but it was the, there was an impact of being dropped from that height. Um, and it was physical and it changed the, changed the ball.

[00:35:54] Um, and I'm not saying, well, we won't take that too far, but, um, I think that ball bounces and the ball bounces and the ball bounces and realizes I can overcome these hardships, but, and I'm still a ball, but the ball still got to understand what am I here for? What's the point of being a ball? Um, a ball's going to give somebody joy.

[00:36:21] A ball's going to do something for somebody other than themselves. And I think that's true for us as people. And as part of our identity is as we deal with the hardship, the suffering, as we persevere through, and as we learn from it and learn about the God who made us part of our identity, our purpose is wrapped in that too. For God first and for other people. And then we're more whole and complete in ourselves when we finally get there.

[00:36:49] And as broken as hard as the world is, I've no doubt in my mind that God uses that brokenness when we embrace it along the journey to help us understand our identity more, understand whose we are, and then our real purpose in life. Which isn't just to be a ball. It's not just to bounce back after the next time we're dropped or kicked. We're role modeling for other balls.

[00:37:18] Uh, yes, I guess, I guess there is. We're showing other balls that we managed to bounce back and they can too. And that, and that's a good thing. Um, because we can all look at people and say, you know what? I wish if I'd had to go through what you've gone through, I'd do it differently. We can all say that. Um, or we can say, if I go through that, I hope I could do it as graciously and well as you did. We can, we can experience those things.

[00:37:45] Um, but there's, there's more than just that, isn't there? Yeah. All, all, all metaphors run out of steam. I think that's true. Yeah. Because we can, yeah. Because words will lead us back to the word and, and the word defines us and that's Jesus. Right.

[00:38:20] Another, another take on wholeness for me is accepting, and this is, this, this was, um, this popped into my hearing something that you said, Tricia, uh, accepting the whole of our emotions, accepting the whole of our emotions.

[00:38:46] So when I get near this, I, I often talk about, you know, if, if we're walking a tight, if, if we're walking a tightrope up in the top of the big top, you know, the circus tent, if, if we know that there's a, if, if we've fallen once and, and there's, there's been,

[00:39:13] you know, if God's been there to catch us or the safety nets being there to catch us and, and, and we have, we have bounced on that net and we've, and we've, and we've been okay. We've landed okay. Then we're less worried next time. So we're less emotophobic, but basically we, we, uh, I'm talking about myself here, worrying less about worrying.

[00:39:43] Right. So I used to worry about worrying. Right. So why am I worrying? I've been on all these courses. Um, I'm still worrying. I shouldn't be worrying. And, and, and basically you're like, we, we're trying to do, uh, uh, do you remember King Canute, Rich from the, from your history lessons? He was the guy that tried to hold back the waves. There you go. Right. Yeah. So we, we, King Canute, uh, like it's 10th century or something like that. Right. So around the time of the Norman conquest, 1066, that's 11th century.

[00:40:12] But King Canute tried to hold back the waves. So I remember doing a really, uh, poor drawing because I'm not particularly, uh, good at, uh, drawing with pencils. Uh, uh, and, um, yeah, I did this drawing of, you know, we had to draw for our homework, had to draw King Canute trying to hold back the waves. Right. So the metaphor here is we're trying to hold back our feelings.

[00:40:40] Um, and, uh, there's, is an REO Speedwagon song. I can't fight these feelings anymore. Bit of a slightly cheesy middle of the road song. Right. I just can't fight these feelings anymore. Right. Well, somebody's told us along the way that we have to fight bad feelings. Um, and, and therefore we've become, um, we can, we've become a motor phobic. So I talked earlier on about, um, the idea, you know, like we're bored.

[00:41:07] So we have to look at our phone, um, or we are, uh, we're, we're worried. So we have to distract us out by the television or, or you can look at all the, uh, all the stats around adoptees and, um, and addiction. Right. So we, we're trying to numb our, we, we can't handle the feelings. So we try and numb ourselves out of it. We numb ourselves. We know.

[00:41:34] So we've, we've got, we've got booze, drugs, retail therapy. Right. So this is the idea that, uh, so whoever came up with that was a master plan, wasn't it? Right. Presumably that was a marketing guy that came up with this idea. Retail therapy. You feel bad, go and spend some money. You'll feel good. Right. That's what retail and comfort eating as well. Comfort eating. And presumably, you know, so you're feeling uncomfortable, put all this carb, put all this

[00:42:03] carb load of stuff down your neck and you feel a lot better. Um, but then you get overweight. Right. So, but, so the, the, the, the central idea is that we, we suppress, we numb out our feelings and we do that in a number of different ways. And the flip of that is actually having grace for our feelings, welcoming our feelings, accepting all our feelings, um, rather than rejecting them.

[00:42:35] Can I add one thing though, Simon? Keep going. Yeah, of course. I feel like I rambled a bit there. No, um, I'm not trying at all by the way, to be a pain when I say this, but if you remember the conclusion to King Canute's conundrum, um, his takeaway. I like what you did with the alliteration there. Thank you. I'm a writer. I try to throw it in whenever I can. Anyway, once again, like the glasses, it distracts.

[00:43:00] But anyway, um, his takeaway, if I remember the story correctly to his courtiers or however you say that word was that no earthly King has the power over the laws of nature, ultimately that's only God. And I think that, I mean, he wasn't being arrogant, right? He was trying to say that there is a limit to human control. And I actually think that goes beautifully with what we're trying to say. Even when you're told, you talked about holding back the wave of emotion.

[00:43:28] I think there is still only a limit to what we can do, what can be expected. I mean, at the end of the day, there are still people who are hurting. At the end of the day, there are still people who are asking questions they want answers to. And we could tell them all day that they're resilient and that they can find the answer within themselves. But at the end of it, I feel like we're doing what King Canute did by trying to hold back that wave. And at the end, there is a limit to what we have the power to do. I think that's why it has to come.

[00:43:58] Some solution has to come outside of ourselves, ultimately. And that's just, again, that's one, that's just my opinion here. But I think, I love that you brought up that illustration of King Canute, because I think that is, I think it is apropos to the discussion. Yeah, I do think, I agree. We have to go.

[00:44:20] I think I've got a compromise that allows us to go out of ourselves or in a God way, right? God's going to help me out of this. I'm going to pray on this. I'm going to give this my focus. And a better idea is going to come to me through God. Is that what you're saying, kind of, roughly?

[00:44:49] You know, I think it's a start. I think, I think, I just, I think, not to sound like a broken record, but I just think, like, I can't, I can't be my own solution, I think. And that's probably a bigger conversation. But, yeah. So, the way I'm thinking about it, that would tie in a religious and a non-religious view of this, right?

[00:45:17] Would be, I go to bed with something on my mind. I eventually drift off. And in the morning, I wake up. I'm in a better, I'm in a better frame of mind somehow. And the idea just, the solution just pops into my head, right? So, it's been a, there's been a shift in my level of thinking.

[00:45:44] There's been a, some people might say there's been a, there's been a shift in my level of consciousness. They might say, they might say that. And we're back to, or not back to, I'm thinking about Einstein saying, you know, we can't, we can't solve the problem with the same level of thinking that created it. Right? So, so that's a non-religious view, a religious, and I've been just, obviously, I'm asking you for your religious take on it.

[00:46:13] So, a religious view of that might be something like, you know, well, I, I had a, I had a challenge. I, I, I prayed on it. I joined with some friends in the congregation on a Sunday morning. And we, we prayed, we prayed for a solution to this particular challenge.

[00:46:38] And, and, and we came to a solution through, through, through God, or God, God gave us the solution that, in that manner. Would that be approximate to something? Or, or please share, share, share, share something that's far more truer to you than, than my kind of right rounder, round the houses wiggle on it.

[00:47:08] Go for it, Rich. I feel like I've been talking a lot. No, he's pointing at me. I am, because it's, you, you're rolling. No, I think, I definitely think those are tools that can be useful. Again, looking outside of ourselves, I would say, I look, I need to look, I want to look upward when I need intervention, not inward.

[00:47:34] I definitely think that there are multiple ways that that can be done, whether that's time reading the Bible, whether that's time with God's people in the church, whether that's just a phone call to a Christian mentor, whether, and there's lots of ways that can be done. I do think, when you talked about, sometimes we go to bed with something heavy on our minds. I think there's probably science to point to. Sometimes things are bigger in our minds at night, and sometimes rest.

[00:48:01] There's a lovely story in the Old Testament where there was a prophet who was really struggling with something. And essentially, and he said this much better than I'm going to say it, but essentially God's instruction to him was to eat something and get some rest. Sometimes there's logic to just making good choices and thinking through things carefully.

[00:48:22] But I do think that speaking from my own experience, that when I have prayed, when I have reached out and asked God for help, he has always given that help. It may look different. It may be a different tool, but he has always responded. And personally, I'm just deeply grateful for that. So, yeah, thanks for the question.

[00:48:52] I'm not sure if I want to say it. And I love how you brought it into the, because we're talking mind-body connection here, aren't we? So, you know, like drinking lots of water. I'm recovering from a tonsils op, right? So I'm supposed to drink two or three liters of water a day. I'm not managing to do that because it hasn't become a habit yet, right?

[00:49:14] But mind-body connection, we feel better when we have had a good night's sleep. We feel better when we are more hydrated. You know, we feel better when we've exercised. You know, all these things bring together. Yeah, it's not. It's the truth, right?

[00:49:38] The world looks a friendlier place after a good night's sleep and some nutrition. And not sweet potatoes with marshmallows, as we touched upon before the thing. This was, this was a couple of years ago. I went to see my good friend Danny Nicholson down in Greenwood, South Carolina, did some work in the Connie Maxwell Children's Home there and within elementary schools.

[00:50:06] And I had a fantastic week apart from the sweet potatoes and marshmallow, which were just a step too far for a British guy. We would never. It's not hold it against all of us. Most of us wouldn't serve you sweet potatoes and marshmallows. I believe it's a Southern thing. So I'm going to take that. That's what I get. Yeah.

[00:50:26] So have you got any other, I'm just conscious of time, have you got anything else that you'd like to share on this subject that we haven't nudged upon yet? Well, Tricia, thanks for a second.

[00:50:48] I think it's just really healthy that we're seeing and looking for wholeness in spite of trauma, that we're allowing that to be trauma to be a part of the conversation. And clearly not allowing it to identify us or anybody else.

[00:51:07] But I would just say, let's keep looking for the whys and let's keep finding our identity and our purpose in and in spite of whatever the suffering is, whoever and however the sufferings happened, whatever trauma and legitimate trauma may have been caused. There's identity and purpose wrapped up in it.

[00:51:34] And I thought we could, we can look for wholeness underneath trauma. Before and after. Before and after. What do you say? We look for wholeness despite of trauma. I'm not sure exactly. I can't remember which word you used. In spite, I think I might say. In spite, yeah. But take it as you need. Before and after. Whatever works for you, listeners. Whatever which works for you.

[00:52:02] But yeah, that non-identifier hook that I jumped on earlier on, Rich, I just thought that was beautiful. Non-identifier. Non-identifying marks. Do you remember? Non-identifier. What did they, they used to describe people? Like, would that be when they're, we watch a lot of crime drama on television. Yeah.

[00:52:32] So is that what people used to say? Like identifying marks. So that might be a mole on the upper left cheek or something like that. Yeah. Non-identifying marks. Yeah. Non-identifying trauma. Yeah. Here we go. Tricia, would you like to bring it in? A couple of thoughts. First, I just want to say thank you, Simon. One thing I really deeply appreciate you about you is that you let us talk these things through.

[00:53:02] And I know you probably don't agree with everything we say, but I appreciate the fact that you listen and you're so kind about it. And you kind of let us sort through things we're still trying to think through ourselves. I would say the one piece I would want to add is that healing is real and hope is real and growth is real. And those things are always available. And no matter what we're going through, those things are available to us.

[00:53:31] And if anybody is trying to tell you otherwise, we've got to keep looking for truth because I do believe with all my heart those things are always available to us and not to believe anyone who says otherwise. So that's the only thing I would want to add. Yeah. And I love that, Tricia. And I totally agree with it. And I'd add another one on top of that, which is who are we hanging around with?

[00:54:00] Who are we spending time with? Do the people that we spend time with, do they see hope? Do they see growth? Do they see healing? Or don't they? And where do we want to spend? Where do we want to spend our time?

[00:54:30] Where do we, yeah, where do we want to put our focus? And where do we want to, who do we want to share our focus with? Yeah. Yeah. Good, good point. They can't change our identity, but they can slow us down in living ours out. Yeah.

[00:54:48] A mentor of mine used, called Richard Wilkins, another rich says, enthusiasm does for people what, for what, enthusiasm does for people what helium does for hot air balloons. But they help them rise.

[00:55:14] And are we spending time with people that have got their hand on the helium button? You know, the rope is a rope, I think, isn't it? They pull a rope and it. So other people, are they helping us rise? Or are they throwing stones into the basket of the hot air balloon and keeping us clawed? Thanks, listeners. Thanks, Rich. Thanks, Tricia.

[00:55:44] We'll see you again very soon. Thanks a lot. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.