Peace With Alice Diver

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast.

[00:00:05] I'm delighted to be joined by Alice Diver.

[00:00:08] Looking forward to our conversation today.

[00:00:11] Me too Simon, thank you for having me back again. It's good to see you.

[00:00:14] Great to see you. Great to have you back.

[00:00:16] So, I don't know, is it a five million pound question or a 17 trillion dollar question?

[00:00:23] What does healing mean to you Alice?

[00:00:27] Oh, okay. It means I guess several things.

[00:00:34] I think it's a good thing to have.

[00:00:36] I don't think personally that I'm at that stage yet.

[00:00:40] I'm very pleased for people who are healed and who are happy to tell me how they did it

[00:00:45] and how it happened and so on. Me personally, I think it's ongoing.

[00:00:51] I'm not sure and I know this is going to sound slightly negative.

[00:00:55] I'm not sure if Adoptees ever fully healed from the thing,

[00:00:59] from what happened to at birth, before birth and ongoing.

[00:01:04] I think we see rejections and triggers and so on everywhere.

[00:01:11] Equally that could just be me but I think coping, if you haven't got healing,

[00:01:16] at least I think I'm quite good at coping.

[00:01:19] So I'll give it that whether that means I'm healed or just very grumpy

[00:01:22] or in need of something then I'm open to being told.

[00:01:28] But those are my thoughts.

[00:01:29] I just sometimes, I know sometimes things heal over.

[00:01:32] You think they're healed but they're actually scar tissue

[00:01:34] or there's something underneath the thorn didn't come out.

[00:01:37] Those are my negative thoughts with which to begin.

[00:01:41] So based on what you said, is then an absence of any perceived

[00:01:52] rejection would that be one indicator of being whole?

[00:02:02] You said see rejection everywhere, which we all know that.

[00:02:07] That's a song that we all know.

[00:02:10] I think in my, I've called it the projection of rejection for me.

[00:02:17] So do you think if we are, do you think that

[00:02:26] not seeing any rejection would be a part of being whole?

[00:02:31] Yes possibly because sometimes I, sometimes they are,

[00:02:35] I would call them micro rejections.

[00:02:37] I think life is made up of them where you maybe,

[00:02:39] you don't get something or a friend falls out with yours

[00:02:43] or something or people are rude on the street or something just triggers.

[00:02:47] Sometimes that's maybe down, I admit to myself being sensitive or hypersensitive.

[00:02:54] So there's that.

[00:02:56] Don't know, I would love to be at the stage where I would be oblivious

[00:03:00] to slights or triggers and so on.

[00:03:02] But I think we remain vigilant.

[00:03:04] I don't know, that could just be me.

[00:03:06] But I know other adoptees who are a bit like that as well.

[00:03:09] So it's a bit like you're seeing that you're trying to predict,

[00:03:13] you're on guard because you think or maybe like an abused child,

[00:03:17] you think I've got to be very careful.

[00:03:19] I'm walking on eggshells and I have to not say this.

[00:03:22] And here's what might happen.

[00:03:23] So I'm going to break up with you first

[00:03:25] or I'm going to stop being your friend before you can hurt me.

[00:03:27] Et cetera, et cetera.

[00:03:28] I know I've heard other adoptees talk about this.

[00:03:32] So it's a thing.

[00:03:33] Will I always see little rejections?

[00:03:35] Probably no because I'm negative in that way

[00:03:37] but I'm also, that's the coping.

[00:03:43] I don't know if I'll ever,

[00:03:44] I'm better than I used to be put it that way.

[00:03:46] I used to be a lot worse now.

[00:03:48] I'm just mildly grumpy most of the time.

[00:03:50] So I guess that's progress.

[00:03:52] Yeah, yes, certainly sounds like progress to me.

[00:03:56] The things coming to my mind is that we put conditions

[00:04:02] on this status of healing, don't we?

[00:04:04] We put, yeah.

[00:04:07] And what if we didn't now?

[00:04:10] That's a really big question.

[00:04:11] But rather than just kind of side stepping the question completely

[00:04:19] or what some people call, I think they call it spiritual bypassing.

[00:04:25] As you were talking about the rejection stuff,

[00:04:28] I remembered something.

[00:04:32] So this was a memory from 40 years ago

[00:04:39] that I saw in a completely different light

[00:04:43] about four months ago.

[00:04:46] So I was 17, I was walking back from the pub

[00:04:50] and I saw a girl that I'd been out with a couple of times

[00:04:56] and then who had dumped me.

[00:04:59] I saw her walking towards me with her,

[00:05:04] but we were still kind of friends,

[00:05:06] we'd been sort of friends before.

[00:05:08] I saw her walking towards me with a mum and her new boyfriend.

[00:05:14] And this boyfriend was like four inches taller than me

[00:05:18] and really big, muscly, wide guy.

[00:05:21] Right?

[00:05:23] She didn't acknowledge me as we passed on the pavement.

[00:05:28] And I said to her, don't say hello then Fiona.

[00:05:35] Don't say hello then Fiona.

[00:05:37] So I'd had a few drinks.

[00:05:39] So obviously my tongue had been slightly loosened.

[00:05:43] And she carried on walking, the old character walking.

[00:05:48] And then about five minutes later,

[00:05:50] I turned around to talk to one of my friends

[00:05:52] and as I did this massive fist arrived in my face.

[00:06:00] And I went down like a bag of proverbial, right?

[00:06:04] So the guy started, was going to start kicking me on the ground.

[00:06:11] And a friend of mine, one of them happened to know him,

[00:06:14] not very well, but he said, look, I think you've done enough.

[00:06:19] And so he pulled away and I had a really bad black eye and all sorts of, you know,

[00:06:26] it wasn't gray.

[00:06:29] I wasn't damaged any more than a black eye,

[00:06:34] but it took probably about four months to go.

[00:06:36] Now I projected rejection.

[00:06:40] I'd said, don't say hello then Fiona.

[00:06:43] I thought that she'd blind me.

[00:06:44] Right.

[00:06:46] And then like last month, not last month, about four months ago,

[00:06:50] something came to me when I realized that what she'd probably done

[00:06:55] is not acknowledged me because she knew this boyfriend was the jealous type with a loose cannon.

[00:07:05] And that's why she'd not said hello to me

[00:07:09] because she didn't want to do anything to aggravate him.

[00:07:13] Right.

[00:07:15] And in that moment, I saw that she hadn't been actually rejecting me as I thought.

[00:07:24] She'd been in a way, she'd been maintaining the peace.

[00:07:30] And when I saw that for the, it took me 40 years, can you believe that?

[00:07:36] It took me 40 years to see that and then ping in a moment, it's gone.

[00:07:42] And I think those for me are those healing moments.

[00:07:53] And as you were talking about this rejection thing,

[00:07:58] I was thinking about this idea that I've never thought of before, right?

[00:08:02] That we're putting conditions, you know, I'll be healed when.

[00:08:08] I'll be whole when.

[00:08:10] I'll be whole when I no longer feel triggered by people kind of rejecting me.

[00:08:24] Does that make?

[00:08:25] It does, it does make sense.

[00:08:28] I think it's accurate to the way it is.

[00:08:30] It's an accurate analysis for some people anyway.

[00:08:35] I don't know.

[00:08:36] It'll be interesting if I was tasked with coming up with a checklist,

[00:08:41] doing the lawyer bit now.

[00:08:43] Yeah.

[00:08:44] Legislative welfare checklist.

[00:08:46] At what point have I ticked enough boxes to say, yeah, I'm good now and I'm healed now?

[00:08:51] You know, because I think I'm probably quite high functioning and I'm a grandmother now

[00:08:54] with another on the way and it's things are good.

[00:08:57] And I'm definitely not as angry as I was, you know, decades or even a few years ago.

[00:09:03] Reunion, not perfect but it's been good.

[00:09:07] It's been helpful.

[00:09:09] But I don't think I could honestly say I'm healed.

[00:09:14] And I just think you can have, you go having very good days.

[00:09:19] One thing could sort of set you off and take you back to being a teenager.

[00:09:23] So example, somebody a friend falls out with you and stops speaking to you or says

[00:09:28] something, you know, sort of hurtful or whatever.

[00:09:30] And even though you're able to rationalize it, you're 70 or 60 years old.

[00:09:33] I've got to catch myself on.

[00:09:35] This is ridiculous and I haven't done anything.

[00:09:38] Things happen.

[00:09:39] You still, you just find no, I've come on.

[00:09:43] I'm just, I'm so, it's just like back to being a teenager again when things maybe

[00:09:48] weren't so good and you weren't able to process and, you know, you think, well,

[00:09:53] but coping mechanism was like, well, I'm going to go get a new tattoo.

[00:09:56] Running out of room now, but you know, something just like legalized self-harm.

[00:10:00] So, you know, that maybe ticks.

[00:10:02] That sounds very dark.

[00:10:03] I don't mean it to be as dark.

[00:10:06] You know, so there's, I just think if you've got layers of healing,

[00:10:11] but sometimes just something gets through them and there's a wee scratch

[00:10:14] and you can take your wild decline back up again.

[00:10:18] Then I think you're a bit more cautious than about you're sort of like,

[00:10:21] maybe I need less people in my life or maybe I need to be more

[00:10:25] guarded and put some walls up and hibernate a little for a while,

[00:10:29] which is probably not a good way to be, but I think it's whatever works.

[00:10:34] Again, that sounds quite dark.

[00:10:36] Well, there's darkness and light there for sure.

[00:10:42] One of the things that popped up for me is you used the processing word.

[00:10:46] So, is kind of more effective processing.

[00:10:53] Is that a sign of healing for you?

[00:10:58] Yes, to an extent.

[00:10:59] Although I wonder, healing and coping, are they,

[00:11:05] wondering are they different concepts or are they maybe a bit closer than

[00:11:12] we give them credit for?

[00:11:14] Could coping be disguised as healing and vice versa?

[00:11:17] That's interesting.

[00:11:17] And I don't know because I'm not a psychologist,

[00:11:19] I would need probably a professional person to guide me through it.

[00:11:26] Yeah. I think sometimes the professionals can definitely help.

[00:11:31] I think healing and coping to me has more of a kind.

[00:11:39] Yeah. It's not as profound.

[00:11:43] It doesn't sound as nice a word to me.

[00:11:48] Coping seems like a strategy rather than healing.

[00:11:53] Is that an insight thing?

[00:11:57] So, in that little moment, when I saw that Fiona, that was the girl,

[00:12:05] when I saw that she hadn't rejected me, there was a kind of a buzz of,

[00:12:12] oh, I wasn't 40 years ago, I wasn't being rejected.

[00:12:19] Are there other moments in my life when I have projected rejection that wasn't there?

[00:12:27] Right? It wasn't there.

[00:12:30] Or the action wasn't a rejection, it was something else.

[00:12:34] So her reaction was a...

[00:12:41] Really? She was being a bit of a butytonic stand.

[00:12:43] It was protection.

[00:12:46] It was protection. There we are. I love her catchphrase.

[00:12:48] It was projection, not rejection.

[00:12:51] Yes.

[00:12:52] You can see that on a t-shirt.

[00:12:54] No, I suppose perception is everything and then hindsight.

[00:12:58] You definitely look at things differently as you get older.

[00:13:01] And I've definitely grown a thicker skin over the years.

[00:13:06] But, yeah, I still...

[00:13:09] I still just...

[00:13:10] And I know how it would have...

[00:13:12] Others, other adoptees in the same position, just from conversations they would say,

[00:13:17] you could go for years and think, I am doing good and everything's fine

[00:13:21] and that's all in the past.

[00:13:22] I just want one little thing and see, you know, it doesn't make things flare up.

[00:13:26] I suppose if it's like a physical...

[00:13:28] I mean, I have a bad ankle, which from time to time decides to spectacularly throw me into the pavement.

[00:13:35] So I wonder, is it a bit like that?

[00:13:37] Maybe I'm equating mental and physical a bit too closely,

[00:13:40] but to me it's a bit like that.

[00:13:42] So you're fine.

[00:13:43] It's like shingles.

[00:13:44] You chickenpox, you get over it.

[00:13:46] And then it waits a couple of decades and can just, you know,

[00:13:49] okay, now you've got shingles because I lived in your spinal cord and I'm back.

[00:13:54] But that's a bit gothic.

[00:13:57] But I don't know.

[00:13:59] I think if we're, at least if you're, is it putting too much pressure on yourself to say,

[00:14:03] I'm healed now and I'm good?

[00:14:05] Does that stop you then from ever having a moment where you might need to sort of go,

[00:14:10] oh, okay, I got to take a day.

[00:14:12] I've got to, you know, that this is a thing.

[00:14:15] And if I ignore it, you know, because of the things that go away by themselves can come back by themselves.

[00:14:19] I wonder are you putting it somewhere but not really dealing with it?

[00:14:23] I don't know.

[00:14:23] I'm a great fan of the darkness and the bleakness.

[00:14:26] Having a day to wallow.

[00:14:27] I always think that feel a lot.

[00:14:29] I love Beckett because Beckett, he upsets you but it's all about grief and grieving and,

[00:14:34] you know, weirdness.

[00:14:36] But in some ways it's sort of therapeutic and cathartic.

[00:14:38] I don't know.

[00:14:39] But it's not always cup of tea.

[00:14:40] I know I'm too much for some people.

[00:14:42] They just, you know, they might, my kids will be like, don't start.

[00:14:45] Do not start.

[00:14:46] You know, you've spotted something in the TV show.

[00:14:49] There's something in a sitcom where adoption was the joke.

[00:14:51] And I'll be, they'll see me just starting to levitate and they'll go like, we know,

[00:14:55] it's not on.

[00:14:56] So, yeah, that's just the gothic thing sums up that book.

[00:15:05] When I read the title of that book, the body keeps the score.

[00:15:10] Right.

[00:15:12] That sounded me like the body keeps a score.

[00:15:15] It sounded gothic kind of as you were describing it.

[00:15:18] You know, it's lurking, right?

[00:15:21] So there's this trauma that has gone away, but it's lurking somewhere in my body

[00:15:28] and it's going to jump out and get me and frighten the bejesus out of me.

[00:15:32] That's what the title.

[00:15:36] It might not.

[00:15:37] And it might not.

[00:15:39] But I just think it's probably, I know I'm a pessimist,

[00:15:42] but I think that way I'm never disappointed.

[00:15:44] I'm just always on the lookout like when you're driving.

[00:15:47] I think it's because so many, so many times I've gone up, you know,

[00:15:50] drive along the street and someone is coming in the opposite direction on a one-way street or

[00:15:54] something, you know, if it can go wrong, it will go wrong.

[00:15:56] Not as pessimistic as it sounds.

[00:15:58] I just call it pragmatism just being prepared for maybe I have a very low bar.

[00:16:01] I'm like, you know, I get through today and I didn't fall over or I didn't make anybody cry.

[00:16:06] Today was not a bad day.

[00:16:10] That's a low bar really.

[00:16:11] I'm actually happier than I'm making out.

[00:16:13] It's just from time to time.

[00:16:15] Well, yeah, low bars.

[00:16:18] I mean, the bigger the goal, the easier it is to score, right?

[00:16:24] So making the bar and mixing the metaphor.

[00:16:29] Do you know, I'm thinking about where is the line between sensible

[00:16:38] vigilance and hypervigilance?

[00:16:40] Do you know what I mean?

[00:16:41] That like where is that bar?

[00:16:42] I mean, where is that gap?

[00:16:43] It's a line that's drawn in.

[00:16:47] It's a line that's drawn in the sand and we'll draw it because we'll draw it in a slightly different

[00:16:51] place.

[00:16:55] Though I think as adoptees, I think we're, you know, I once said we're a bit like rescue

[00:17:00] dogs and I remember one friend being appalled by that and said, don't describe yourself

[00:17:05] like that.

[00:17:06] And others were sort of like, that's maybe not a bad way of self-labelling.

[00:17:13] It's maybe a bit defeatist, but you're sort of saying, we are a bit, you know,

[00:17:16] I think once you acknowledge that we have the hypervigilance or some differences,

[00:17:21] then you can sort of go, okay, I'll put them over there and I know they're there

[00:17:24] and it might not need to look at them now for a while.

[00:17:26] And then you go on, but maybe that's too defeatist or I don't know.

[00:17:29] These are just my thoughts.

[00:17:31] Well, that's what we're doing aren't we?

[00:17:34] Which is such a change in thoughts.

[00:17:37] Is it the thing that's coming to my head is kind of like there's hypervigilance

[00:17:45] and are we shaming ourselves there?

[00:17:50] Are we saying, is healing saying, well, it's hypervigilance, it's okay.

[00:17:55] Whereas the other one, you know, as we could be saying, I can't get any sleep.

[00:18:02] I've been awake for five weeks.

[00:18:05] I'm hypervigilance all the time and like we're villainizing how we feel.

[00:18:14] And so given that, what seems, what healing would be would be

[00:18:23] villainizing our emotions less being, having more grace for how we feel.

[00:18:32] Not so, I'm making about myself for a minute.

[00:18:36] So I used to be, you know, worry about worrying or get angry about being angry.

[00:18:43] And there's a space where then I'm fueling the fire, right?

[00:18:52] Rather than accepting the emotions.

[00:18:57] And it's a thing that keep coming back again and again is on the podcast that

[00:19:05] guests see that accepting rather than fighting our feelings is a sign of healing.

[00:19:19] Because we've numbed, we've stuffed, we've tried to push them away.

[00:19:27] We've been, because we've been so worried that the wave of trauma is going to drown us.

[00:19:35] Right? We've been trying to put our hand up against the wave like that,

[00:19:38] King Can You guy that we did in history.

[00:19:43] He put his hand up against the wave to try and stop the waves coming in.

[00:19:49] And clearly that's a completely pointless exercise.

[00:19:53] Yeah, that's a tricky one.

[00:19:58] It is a difficult one.

[00:20:00] And then I wonder is there a difference between, I know adoptees who've been to therapy

[00:20:06] who are still in therapy ones that would not go to therapy.

[00:20:09] I've never had it.

[00:20:10] I've been told a few times that I probably shouldn't go and see about it.

[00:20:15] But it's, I wonder does that make a difference at how you look back on stuff

[00:20:20] or how you see yourself situated within it?

[00:20:23] Well, I sometimes, you know, I use this a while ago.

[00:20:31] The guy who is in a roundabout way responsible for me doing the podcast.

[00:20:39] It was a mentor guy at mine like 10 years ago.

[00:20:43] He said it's hard to see the picture when we're in the frame.

[00:20:47] Hard to see the picture when we're in the frame.

[00:20:49] So a third party can, a third party perspective can help them.

[00:20:54] I guess that's why, you know, a therapist or a coach can help us.

[00:21:00] But what we're doing here is like we're talking about perspectives on healing

[00:21:08] and you're sharing your perspective on healing.

[00:21:10] I'm sharing a little bit of my perspective on healing.

[00:21:12] Some of the perspectives I've heard from other guests.

[00:21:15] And in that way we can kind of look at our perspective and say,

[00:21:22] without me to pay to go to the therapist, we can look at our perspective and say,

[00:21:26] well, is there something in what Alice said there?

[00:21:30] I mean, that's the purpose of the podcast is for me to,

[00:21:36] well, yeah, as I saw it was for me is to kind of ask the guests about their

[00:21:44] perspective on healing, their perspective on thriving and see if anything that's helped

[00:21:52] the guest can help the listener.

[00:21:54] That's what we're trying to do.

[00:21:55] We're trying to offer a different perspective on it.

[00:21:59] And in particular, I feel that what I'm trying to do now is healing education.

[00:22:07] We've had so much trauma education in the books, right?

[00:22:12] As we've had so much trauma education in the books or from videos that we've watched

[00:22:19] or stuff that we've seen on Facebook.

[00:22:21] We've had loads of trauma and trauma education.

[00:22:25] Let's focus on healing education.

[00:22:26] Let's focus on healing perspectives in the hope that our shifts in perspectives

[00:22:34] may catalyze a shift in perspective for the listener.

[00:22:39] So do any healing moments come to mind?

[00:22:46] So the moments where you've had those shifts in perspective?

[00:22:51] Definitely.

[00:22:52] I mean, I suppose maybe I'm sort of being too negative and I'll try to sort of see some of the

[00:22:57] some of the positives.

[00:22:58] I mean, I suppose the big moment was obviously reunion seven years ago now with the maternal

[00:23:05] side of the family.

[00:23:06] That was a very, very positive experience and that definitely helped put a few demons to rest.

[00:23:13] Now again, I have that has to come with the proviso of quite often think reunion

[00:23:18] is the be all and end all.

[00:23:19] It's you know, there's your birth certificate off you go.

[00:23:22] There's your family.

[00:23:23] You should be happy now.

[00:23:24] You found them.

[00:23:25] It only took you 50 years.

[00:23:27] So it's good, but it's not if I'm expecting perfection and for a line to be drawn.

[00:23:35] You know, it's an ongoing thing.

[00:23:36] It'll net you know, it's an ongoing process, but it's definitely helpful.

[00:23:40] I'm very much in favor of repatriation of redress.

[00:23:45] You know, and again, there's so much that happening in various places around the world

[00:23:48] where they're trying to work out how do you heal a generation?

[00:23:51] How do you heal a group of people who have been mistreated and violated and everything else?

[00:23:56] And I see different examples of it.

[00:23:58] You know, what will do we have memorial?

[00:24:00] Do we give them money?

[00:24:01] Do we put time limits on?

[00:24:03] Do we just do we give them some extra support?

[00:24:06] And it's good that there is, I guess, a bit of a realization that people need more than

[00:24:10] just the bit of paper or there's the name off you go and search, you know,

[00:24:15] or there's the reunion.

[00:24:16] Be careful because it could break down.

[00:24:19] I think it's good that they're realizing that adult adoptees do need a bit more.

[00:24:23] You need to talk to other adoptees and have support groups are great.

[00:24:27] I only joined one a few months ago.

[00:24:29] That's another moment.

[00:24:31] But again, it's the kind of place where people talk about anything.

[00:24:39] You know, so it's quite good and it can go a bit dark.

[00:24:42] There's sometimes emotions can run high, so there may be some sharp, not sharp exchanges,

[00:24:46] but you know, sometimes people get upset and talk.

[00:24:50] It's only a small group, but that has been, you know, that sounds awful.

[00:24:54] You feel quite wrung out by the end of it, but I look forward to that.

[00:24:57] So because you're just among kindred spirits and some will come and go

[00:25:01] and you can see people from week to week often healing and getting better.

[00:25:07] But it's nice to know that it's there because sometimes they'll come back

[00:25:10] after a while away and say, well, my reunion is broken down or something has happened

[00:25:14] or I've discovered this and they just need to come back into that safe space.

[00:25:19] So that would be one.

[00:25:20] Let me think what else?

[00:25:21] I mean, having children was something that I highly recommend.

[00:25:29] Having a grandchild was kind of, I'm falling into the stereotypical granny

[00:25:34] of I am a granny, I have grandchild, she's very cute.

[00:25:36] But that to me, that's amazing because she, I could see she looks like my,

[00:25:41] she's a small brown round thing.

[00:25:44] So that's nice when I look at her and I can sort of say,

[00:25:46] well, you look like all these Canadian cousins and the ancestors,

[00:25:50] she's quite indigenous looking, which is nice for Northern Ireland.

[00:25:55] So there's lots, yeah, I can point to lots of things that are healing,

[00:25:59] but I can't yet say that I'm at that level of having been healed.

[00:26:06] I think I'm doing well.

[00:26:07] I think I'm doing okay, but it's just occasionally something will come along

[00:26:11] to, to floor you a little and you think, whoa, where did that come from?

[00:26:15] And why am I, you know, feeling like I felt 40 odd years ago when times were very dark?

[00:26:22] You can pull yourself out of it.

[00:26:23] But I think, I think it's important to notice, you know,

[00:26:26] when something like that's happening that you can then maybe seek help.

[00:26:30] Yeah, sounds awful.

[00:26:31] Help.

[00:26:32] But you know, I don't know.

[00:26:34] Is the, is the support group, you said it was a small group.

[00:26:39] Do you meet in person?

[00:26:40] Do you meet online?

[00:26:41] How does it work online?

[00:26:42] Online, which in some ways is good because I think if you were in person,

[00:26:45] I don't know.

[00:26:46] I think sometimes people maybe open up a little more online

[00:26:48] because they can be comfortable to have not to leave the house.

[00:26:51] You're in your space, you know, you can stop and get a drink of water.

[00:26:55] You can sort of come and go if it's getting too much,

[00:26:57] you can go and have a moment.

[00:26:59] And I think just, yeah, I think that's, that's a very good thing.

[00:27:03] And how many people are on, on the couple?

[00:27:07] It varies from, you know,

[00:27:11] from meeting to meeting.

[00:27:12] Sometimes you get quite a big attendance.

[00:27:14] Other times it's smaller.

[00:27:17] So that on average, I mean, what does it range?

[00:27:20] Does it range from six to 20 or, you know?

[00:27:23] Yeah, I would usually fall in.

[00:27:24] I would sort of fall into that.

[00:27:26] So obviously we're sort of bound by, you know, confidentiality.

[00:27:32] Not sort of too much about it, but it's a nice manageable number.

[00:27:36] And from month to month, it could change in composition.

[00:27:40] So some people are there a lot.

[00:27:42] Others you might only see once or twice.

[00:27:44] Like if something has annoyed them, they'll come in.

[00:27:47] So I think that's important too.

[00:27:49] It's a nice safety net.

[00:27:52] So no, it's good.

[00:27:52] It's good to hear the other stories

[00:27:53] because you feel a lot less lonely.

[00:27:55] You think each of us, you think you're the only person

[00:27:57] that had the fear or the dark thoughts.

[00:28:00] And then you'll hear somebody else and think,

[00:28:03] oh, it's okay to feel like that.

[00:28:04] They have the same, they're feeling the same.

[00:28:07] You know, they're sensitive to this kind of stuff too.

[00:28:10] And that's quite validating.

[00:28:12] You sort of think, okay, you know, this is good.

[00:28:16] Yeah.

[00:28:16] So safety and number.

[00:28:18] We flock.

[00:28:18] I like it when we find a flock or a tribe or whatever.

[00:28:22] I could say tribe because of the Indigenous connection.

[00:28:25] But I like having a clumped.

[00:28:28] I don't know what the collective noun is

[00:28:31] for a group of adoptees.

[00:28:32] That's a good one, isn't it?

[00:28:34] That's, there's your next post,

[00:28:35] can we call ourselves?

[00:28:37] Yeah, have you got a suggestion off the top of your head?

[00:28:42] I think about it.

[00:28:43] I don't want to say an anger of adoptees.

[00:28:45] I don't know a justification of it.

[00:28:47] It's really, I'm not good at those things.

[00:28:49] We've got the murder of crows.

[00:28:50] We don't want that.

[00:28:51] I have to think of some, a gratitude of adoptees

[00:28:53] because in a way I have to be able to sort of,

[00:28:55] I have a problem with gratitude.

[00:28:56] I hate being told to be grateful.

[00:28:58] And I am very grateful for everything.

[00:28:59] But yeah, there's just something as it wrangles a bit.

[00:29:02] Yeah.

[00:29:03] We're talking, there's a lot of that coming up at the moment.

[00:29:06] That kind of like the difference between spontaneous gratitude

[00:29:10] from within and forced gratitude from without people.

[00:29:15] And I don't think any of us,

[00:29:16] I don't think any of us like to be told what to do.

[00:29:20] It wrangles with me.

[00:29:22] Yeah, it really gets us.

[00:29:25] And it's the opposite, isn't it?

[00:29:26] It's that invalidation.

[00:29:29] A big time, yeah.

[00:29:30] Is it a...

[00:29:31] The invalidation.

[00:29:32] Yeah.

[00:29:33] You talked about expecting perfection in reunion, which as you...

[00:29:41] Well, it's clear, isn't it?

[00:29:42] I like a bumper sticker.

[00:29:44] So what, can you expand a bit on that?

[00:29:47] On how you think expectations influence what's going on for us?

[00:29:56] What's the link?

[00:29:57] Is there a link between expectations and healing?

[00:30:01] How do you see it?

[00:30:02] I think literature and law, I think I have a lot to answer for.

[00:30:07] The classic tale, I don't want to say fairy tales because they're too dark.

[00:30:12] But the happy movie, the happy end,

[00:30:15] I've talked with the recent, I've talked with them,

[00:30:16] they think handmade tale, the sequel.

[00:30:18] Spoiler alert if anybody's watching it.

[00:30:20] But with the testaments, you wait for two books

[00:30:24] and a whole bunch of terrifying things.

[00:30:26] And then just in the final few pages, it's like,

[00:30:28] ah, reunion, and then just fades to black.

[00:30:31] There's so many books where I see that happening.

[00:30:34] So it's the cutoff point, it's like the old,

[00:30:36] and they live happily ever after.

[00:30:38] And then it ends, you don't get to say,

[00:30:39] well, how did that marriage work out?

[00:30:40] Did they struggle?

[00:30:42] How did that reunion go?

[00:30:43] Did they stay in the honeymoon?

[00:30:45] And I just think we get the expectation then that

[00:30:49] it's okay from here on in.

[00:30:50] I've found family or I've got my answers or I've got whatever.

[00:30:54] And therefore, it's like an apology with the line being drawn under of,

[00:30:58] you've got your apology, what more do you want?

[00:31:00] Or you've got your compensation, go away.

[00:31:03] But this line is drawn and we have to be just kind of,

[00:31:05] that's you, you're fine now.

[00:31:07] We know that that's not the case.

[00:31:10] You know, things can, sometimes things are great

[00:31:12] and they will go on great.

[00:31:15] But I think yeah, we have a cultural or societal way of

[00:31:21] drawing lines under things that I don't think

[00:31:24] lines can be erased.

[00:31:26] And there is an expectation of you must be happy now.

[00:31:28] And as you say, gratitude, we've kind of been raised to be

[00:31:32] grateful for having been taken in.

[00:31:34] I was told over the years, you're very lucky,

[00:31:36] you'd very good parents.

[00:31:38] They were very good up to a point.

[00:31:41] You know, they were good.

[00:31:42] They were not perfect.

[00:31:44] Aren't you lucky you found your family after all these years?

[00:31:47] Isn't it beautiful?

[00:31:48] And I will say it's nice, it's going well.

[00:31:51] There are triggering moments where it's,

[00:31:53] you know, and you crush it down because you don't want to break it.

[00:31:56] We're very good at walking on eggshells.

[00:31:58] So, you know, I'm complaining to you because you're my friend.

[00:32:01] You're very privileged to hear the complaints.

[00:32:04] But yeah, I would be tampering this if someone was saying,

[00:32:07] isn't that great that that's happening?

[00:32:10] How lovely.

[00:32:10] I'll go, yeah, yeah, because 99% of the time it is.

[00:32:14] But then there's that 1% that I think maybe just cuts a bit

[00:32:17] deeper because I think we're maybe covered in more scar

[00:32:19] tissue than most, but that's, you know, it's still healing.

[00:32:23] It's still healing.

[00:32:24] But it's, I think, you know, that's the fact that we need to heal

[00:32:29] whereas sometimes the kept didn't and they have their own problem.

[00:32:32] And that's terrible to call non-adopties the kept.

[00:32:35] They have their own problems.

[00:32:37] You know, families can be dangerous no matter what the scenario.

[00:32:40] But I still do think we just, I think we're that way,

[00:32:43] but we've got different that we need a little extra time,

[00:32:47] extra healing, extra understanding.

[00:32:49] I don't know.

[00:32:49] Those are, yeah, those are my thoughts.

[00:32:54] As you were thinking, as you're talking about that, I was thinking,

[00:32:58] do they want to, are they saying it because they want to feel better?

[00:33:05] I think so.

[00:33:06] I think society, as we know, we used to get hidden away,

[00:33:09] the illegitimate, we used to get put behind a wall or shipped

[00:33:12] to another country or buried at a crossroads and went very

[00:33:15] dark all of a sudden.

[00:33:16] I know, sorry.

[00:33:17] But, you know, I think we scare people.

[00:33:20] Let me think of all the, you know, the folklore

[00:33:24] that is attached to us, you know, the history of,

[00:33:26] oh, they've got unknown ancestry.

[00:33:28] Don't know where they came from.

[00:33:30] Our demon seed mythologies, are they, are they to be trusted?

[00:33:33] Are they angry?

[00:33:34] They did get angry.

[00:33:35] We have a lot of that that I don't know if people maybe

[00:33:38] always would say to us.

[00:33:40] I don't like being the punchline.

[00:33:41] There's a lot of jokes.

[00:33:42] There's a lot to be answered for there, which I think needs to stop.

[00:33:45] But yeah, so I think there's that which makes us also more cautious of.

[00:33:52] Yeah.

[00:33:53] So it's for that benefit, not ours.

[00:33:56] I think so.

[00:33:56] I think society probably feels, I don't, I think society feels a bit of guilt

[00:34:01] at the fact that adoption has to happen.

[00:34:04] So like our generation had had to happen because you couldn't have the unmarried

[00:34:07] mother, you couldn't have the illegitimate child.

[00:34:09] That society is failing.

[00:34:10] Mothers didn't have enough money.

[00:34:12] Society let them down, probably let a lot of us down by saying,

[00:34:17] well there you go and you don't need your birth certificate.

[00:34:19] That's not a sign of a good, you know, so I think there probably is that

[00:34:22] guilt at the level of the state or the church, the fact that they're apologizing.

[00:34:27] Yeah.

[00:34:30] You're talking about different cultures and countries.

[00:34:33] And you mentioned before we,

[00:34:37] we before I hit the record button that you've been over to the states

[00:34:40] for a conference.

[00:34:42] Do you see any differences in American versus Brit adoptees?

[00:34:53] I think in some ways we're lucky here in the UK, obviously you can get your

[00:34:59] original birth certificate a bit more easily.

[00:35:02] There's some in the States, Canada, there's still efforts to open the records

[00:35:06] and same with Ireland as well, but there's still a lot of people that will.

[00:35:10] I'm not going to get mine even though I found, you know,

[00:35:14] you know, maternal side of the family because she signed a veto in the 1980s

[00:35:18] and she has said to them, you know, Earth mother, she doesn't mind the terminology,

[00:35:22] she's okay with the term.

[00:35:24] She's said, but no, I've been to Ireland, she's been here, can you give her her birth

[00:35:28] certificate?

[00:35:28] And they said no that veto was forever, the one that you signed in the 1980s.

[00:35:32] So that's the ridiculous nature of the law which also makes me angry.

[00:35:37] I think also over there as well, so I think the fact that people can't get

[00:35:41] their birth certificate is a barrier.

[00:35:44] There's some people just can't find reunion DNA works sometimes.

[00:35:48] I think the difference with the UK as well, don't forget the baby scoop over there.

[00:35:52] So there's a lot of the indigenous, you know, race needs to be factored in, the poverty.

[00:35:59] But over here, I suppose we have the cross-border aspects of children being

[00:36:04] transported and hidden away.

[00:36:07] The US as well will probably have more international adoptees.

[00:36:11] So that brings with it a whole lot of sort of separate issues.

[00:36:15] So it's a rich tapestry.

[00:36:18] Yeah.

[00:36:19] The whole thing about the loss of ancestry and identity.

[00:36:22] There's a whole load of different things there.

[00:36:27] The ones that have occurred to me at the wealth, the reason I asked the question was because

[00:36:31] you were talking about welfare, right?

[00:36:34] And in the UK we have a bigger safety net.

[00:36:39] We've got a big, is our is our welfare state a bigger state, bigger safety net than it

[00:36:45] is in the states?

[00:36:47] I think up to a point because, yeah, I mean, I think I wonder when we look back on this

[00:36:54] period of time with food banks and with more poverty, poverty is always a trigger for neglect

[00:37:02] because there's a fine line between your child is undernourished while it was food or heat.

[00:37:06] You know, your child is cold or clothes aren't washed.

[00:37:09] Is that neglect or is it that you couldn't afford to run the washing machine and buy

[00:37:12] soap?

[00:37:13] So I don't know.

[00:37:13] I think there's a bit of blurring.

[00:37:14] I know the UK has a name for having speedier adoptions and calling for speedier adoption.

[00:37:20] You cut the time limits and I can see that child protection.

[00:37:23] Yes, there are times when child can't stay with birth parents, but it does have, if you

[00:37:29] look at the rest of Europe, the UK is sort of seen as being a bit quick to act.

[00:37:36] Is there a move towards open adoptions here in theory?

[00:37:39] Yes.

[00:37:40] But again, open adoption could be letterbox once a year.

[00:37:43] So there's a lot of blurring that goes on.

[00:37:49] What about the fact that adopted parents pay in the States whereas the state pays in the UK?

[00:38:01] Yeah, it's a lucrative business and I have issues with children with us having maybe been

[00:38:08] commodified or put the label on in that way.

[00:38:14] The debate I think is getting opened up when we see surrogacy happening more.

[00:38:19] It just puts a lot of things into the mix.

[00:38:22] At what point do we sort of tip into this industry?

[00:38:26] We know adoptions have been an industry for a very long time as they children used to be hidden

[00:38:30] and then they discovered what?

[00:38:31] I'm thinking of Ireland and then suddenly in the 1940s, 50s,

[00:38:35] movie stars decide we could adopt the child lovely, bring this little Irish baby over and

[00:38:40] then the church realizes, oh you know what?

[00:38:42] This is lucrative.

[00:38:43] So maybe instead of silently sending them away, we could repackage this as here is a lovely baby

[00:38:50] and they did.

[00:38:51] We know that money was made from that.

[00:38:54] It's all in the spin really.

[00:38:56] Yeah.

[00:38:57] I feel that what you call that commodification, I think I feel that's a big thing.

[00:39:03] I think that's a big thing.

[00:39:04] It would be me just seeing a price list of babies a couple of years ago, mainly want to be sick.

[00:39:13] So how it feels, how it would feel if I'd uncovered for example the documentation in my parents,

[00:39:25] you know, the draws in the attic that they never go into and I found that there'd been

[00:39:31] a price on my head.

[00:39:34] Could have been a donation might have been made to the church if it was church welfare.

[00:39:38] There was a lot of, you know, records were not always kept that well.

[00:39:41] You make a donation.

[00:39:42] We're not selling you a baby but make a donation.

[00:39:45] I know I was, I do know that I don't know how much I cost but I know I was black market.

[00:39:48] I would like to think I was, you know, not perfect because it was about seven months.

[00:39:52] So there was whether it was the indigenous deafness, there was some flaw that kept me for seven

[00:39:58] months in the, I don't want to say the whole big because they're not home like the institution.

[00:40:03] But I know there was a black market fee paid.

[00:40:06] My sources tell me something was paid but finding the evidence is tricky.

[00:40:10] But I'll tell you what really bothers me is that the rehoming of percent about the U.S.

[00:40:16] Reuters did a study in this, you know, I have done over the last few years

[00:40:20] of the giving back of a child.

[00:40:23] So it's we've had them for a while.

[00:40:24] It's not working out.

[00:40:26] And then they're advertised with like poppies and that upsets me.

[00:40:30] But yeah, there's a lot that's less than ideal.

[00:40:35] Well, I would, I've just seen one story about that.

[00:40:39] I've not seen any statistics but I was being interviewed by a Brit adoptee

[00:40:48] Annalisa Takaru is doing, she's doing a PhD in social media.

[00:40:54] She's doing a media adoption.

[00:40:55] Yeah, she's actually, she's great.

[00:40:57] I'm glad she's doing it.

[00:40:58] It's good needs to be done.

[00:40:59] That's a good story.

[00:41:00] Yeah.

[00:41:00] So I did that.

[00:41:01] I was interviewed by her as part of her research and that we can and for some at some point

[00:41:08] I found myself ranting about the the rehoming story.

[00:41:14] So there's something for me it was, I don't use the word triggering very often, but I was

[00:41:20] so I'm going to have a little bit of a think about and then we'll think about that.

[00:41:27] And I'm, I'm seeing it make watch your mainly somatic therapist at the moment

[00:41:34] and I might when I see her in a couple of weeks, I might bring that up.

[00:41:39] What?

[00:41:43] Yeah, rehoming that's going to make us sick as well.

[00:41:47] Yeah.

[00:41:48] Yeah.

[00:41:51] There's a lot to poke at, you know what I mean?

[00:41:55] There's creeping below the surface.

[00:41:57] There's there's never fails to amaze me.

[00:42:00] I sort of sometimes I think, well, I've heard it all now and then, you know,

[00:42:04] read about the rehoming or I won't even talk about Ukraine and the fast track passports,

[00:42:09] the children that are being labeled as abandoned when they're not.

[00:42:14] You know, so there's, there's that going on.

[00:42:16] But again, to play devil's advocate, one good thing that might come out of all these bad things,

[00:42:22] if it makes others aware that they need to be nicer to us, if it makes the lawmakers aware that,

[00:42:30] you know, these things matter, that we do need a bit of extra accommodation or,

[00:42:36] you know, people need to cut us some slack sometimes because this is not normal to things,

[00:42:40] you know, you're set things that we went through, not normal.

[00:42:43] And I just think people need to not, they just need to take a bit of care.

[00:42:47] Don't don't do the micro rejection.

[00:42:49] So if you're not included in something or if someone walks past and doesn't speak,

[00:42:55] it just cuts a bit deeper with us that we sort of think, oh, here we go.

[00:42:58] There the abandonment again.

[00:43:00] And at the average person, the kept person can sort of go, yeah, it's fine.

[00:43:04] Never liked the anyway.

[00:43:05] We will sort of go, oh, what is wrong with me?

[00:43:07] And what's going to happen next?

[00:43:08] I don't know that that's me anyway.

[00:43:10] Just not speaking.

[00:43:10] Yeah, you've just taken me to the solution, to the reason for my upset with the rehoming.

[00:43:25] That was a reminder of abandonment.

[00:43:30] Oh, big time.

[00:43:31] Big time.

[00:43:32] Did you have that?

[00:43:33] I hadn't seen it.

[00:43:34] You helped me see that, by the way.

[00:43:36] Sorry if that's what.

[00:43:38] I can always spot the dark.

[00:43:39] I can find the darkness in anything my husband says.

[00:43:41] You could find the darkness.

[00:43:43] I'm like, yes, but once you found it, you can put it over there and switch on a light.

[00:43:47] Maybe that's sort of my healing.

[00:43:49] But I have a question, but feel free not to answer it.

[00:43:52] But I found this with other adoptees that in childhood at some point,

[00:43:58] and I have this in common with a lot of people, that your adoptive family might have been

[00:44:04] saying, they would have been saying it in jest usually, would have made a throwaway

[00:44:08] remark like, I'll send you back.

[00:44:11] Or you need to go back to whatever it is.

[00:44:13] And I would have said it from time to time.

[00:44:16] I was not a bad teenager.

[00:44:17] I read books a lot.

[00:44:18] I was a good kid.

[00:44:19] I was grumpy, but I was a good child.

[00:44:21] But yeah, there was the threat of we could send you back.

[00:44:25] And I have friends who this was said to, but it may have been said in jest.

[00:44:28] But the fear that certain sounds or smells that could spark off just absolute abject terror of

[00:44:36] a friend who's scared still of the bin lorry, because they would mix it up when they were young,

[00:44:41] not very young.

[00:44:42] But they mixed it up with the sound of like the child catcher.

[00:44:45] Oh, is this the truck that comes around to take adoptees back or whatever?

[00:44:51] It's completely irrational, but it's some kind of primal fear of that's the sound

[00:44:55] that would make it just the bin lorry.

[00:44:56] You weren't getting put in the bin.

[00:44:58] Does that make sense?

[00:44:59] It's a bit dramatic, I know.

[00:45:00] But it's amazing how many adoptees have a memory at some point in their childhood

[00:45:04] of someone saying to them, you know, we'll send you back.

[00:45:08] Maybe not.

[00:45:08] And it wasn't said in seriousness, but it just did enough to unsettle us.

[00:45:14] So I don't know.

[00:45:16] So luckily I was never told that.

[00:45:21] On the, but this is how sensitive I feel that we can be or I can be.

[00:45:29] I don't like that when my wife says that to adopt them, to one of the dogs that's misbehaving.

[00:45:36] Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:45:39] No, we can't know that's yet.

[00:45:41] That would make me, yeah.

[00:45:44] Right.

[00:45:45] Because there's no way you wouldn't send that dog back.

[00:45:47] It would have to be like attacking you before you would send it by it even then

[00:45:51] you probably wouldn't because just we can't have it.

[00:45:54] I wouldn't say it.

[00:45:56] No.

[00:45:56] Don't even think it.

[00:45:57] Don't even think it.

[00:45:58] We don't abandon things.

[00:46:00] We collect books.

[00:46:01] We don't throw out this.

[00:46:02] I never threw out a book and it drives my family nuts and they're all, it's a book.

[00:46:06] And I'm like, but it might be lonely.

[00:46:07] I can't get rid.

[00:46:07] No, I bought it.

[00:46:09] So stay on the shelf.

[00:46:11] Should it go moldy?

[00:46:12] We just, I don't know.

[00:46:13] I think it's a tendency to be project onto others that don't know.

[00:46:18] Yeah.

[00:46:20] And your dogs look lovely and happy because I've seen them on Facebook.

[00:46:22] Yeah.

[00:46:22] Yeah.

[00:46:22] Yeah.

[00:46:23] They're probably the...

[00:46:24] They're healthy moments, misbehaving, right?

[00:46:25] They're healthy moments.

[00:46:27] But I would never say that to them even in...

[00:46:29] Yes, no.

[00:46:31] Resonates too much with us, I think?

[00:46:34] Yeah.

[00:46:36] It sends...

[00:46:38] So we've had...

[00:46:41] We've got our third and fourth dog now.

[00:46:43] So we've got one dog 25, 26 years ago, maybe something like that.

[00:46:50] And then she died it when she was about 12.

[00:46:52] We got another one.

[00:46:54] She died about 11, 12.

[00:46:57] And...

[00:46:58] But the third one, or we just on our fourth,

[00:47:02] about third and fourth.

[00:47:04] But the fourth one didn't end it.

[00:47:09] She doesn't, she didn't, she never cried at night.

[00:47:12] She never cried at night when she was little.

[00:47:14] Like even the first night away from her mum.

[00:47:17] But other dogs have.

[00:47:19] And that's been spine chilling.

[00:47:26] Yeah.

[00:47:27] Yeah.

[00:47:27] I would say, Trigory.

[00:47:29] That's just the way we can sort of, we can relate to the horror.

[00:47:32] And you think, yeah, we must have gone through something like that.

[00:47:37] Because we're mammals at the end of the day.

[00:47:39] And it's horrific, it's horrible.

[00:47:41] But then it turns out okay because...

[00:47:43] Yeah.

[00:47:45] You get to keep the doggy.

[00:47:46] You get to mother it and you know...

[00:47:49] And although I know it's spine chilling,

[00:47:53] I know that the more I think about it,

[00:47:55] the worse it can seem to get.

[00:47:57] I can start creating all sorts of...

[00:48:02] I've had that spine chilling moment.

[00:48:04] I must admit to being a little bit angry.

[00:48:09] Because they've interrupted my sleep.

[00:48:13] And as I say that, how can I be angry with them about being upset?

[00:48:18] But that's what I'm saying.

[00:48:19] I'm not saying that I'm going to be upset.

[00:48:21] I'm not saying that I'm going to be upset.

[00:48:23] I'm not saying that I'm going to be upset about being upset.

[00:48:25] But that's the truth.

[00:48:29] But I know that I could make that spine chilling moment a lot worse with my imagination.

[00:48:41] Yeah.

[00:48:42] I know what you mean.

[00:48:43] And you have to be...

[00:48:44] That wouldn't be the easiest of things to go through.

[00:48:49] Some people probably would pick it all apart and say,

[00:48:53] And then I'm going to tomorrow, I'm having a duvet day.

[00:48:56] And after that, I might feel better.

[00:48:58] Or you might think I'm going to soldier on because that is what it is.

[00:49:03] And I can't go down that path.

[00:49:04] So not every path can you go down if that makes any sense?

[00:49:08] There's times you have...

[00:49:09] There is a danger that you go down.

[00:49:10] I remember you saying about the tunnel.

[00:49:12] Posting that you had once before and you said,

[00:49:14] It's okay to go down the tunnel, but sometimes you have to turn around and come back.

[00:49:17] I'm probably the maniac that would keep going in the tunnel

[00:49:20] and end up having to be rescued and pulled out by the feet.

[00:49:23] Just either out of curiosity or out of...

[00:49:25] Well, let's just see what happens, which is not ideal either.

[00:49:31] But...

[00:49:31] You know...

[00:49:33] That's what we do.

[00:49:34] Different types of healing or different types of...

[00:49:37] What do you think gets in the way of our healing?

[00:49:42] Oh.

[00:49:44] I can give you a lawyer answer.

[00:49:45] I could give a lawyer answer.

[00:49:47] I will feel more healed when I see that the law

[00:49:51] is affording us more respect and equality and equity and parity of esteem and everything else.

[00:49:57] That would help me greatly.

[00:49:58] I'd quite like to find the paternal side of my birth family out of curiosity as well.

[00:50:04] Oh, I got a bunch of other siblings on that side.

[00:50:07] So there's various things.

[00:50:08] I think the more grandchildren I have, the more healed I'm going to be.

[00:50:11] Time is doing its thing.

[00:50:14] If I'm being very honest, I probably...

[00:50:19] There's always going to be a bit that's not healed for me personally.

[00:50:22] But I've made peace with that.

[00:50:24] If that's maybe not to defeat us or realistic...

[00:50:28] No, I don't think that's...

[00:50:30] I think that's the point.

[00:50:33] Right?

[00:50:33] If we're...

[00:50:37] This is a bit of a tongue twister.

[00:50:38] But I'm saying what you said in two words in a few more, right?

[00:50:46] If we're okay with not feeling okay, we're always okay.

[00:50:53] Yeah, I agree with that.

[00:50:59] If we can...

[00:51:02] I was just writing something before we spoke about...

[00:51:06] I talked about resolution being healing and meeting your family,

[00:51:15] via family on the paternal side would be an example of one of those resolutions.

[00:51:23] And there's also the being at peace with the lack of answers.

[00:51:29] Being at peace and making peace with the fact that the puzzle will never be fully finished.

[00:51:41] It's kind of...

[00:51:43] To me, that is the epitome of healing because healing is peace.

[00:51:51] Yeah.

[00:51:52] And it's an ongoing process I guess.

[00:51:55] If you think of your skin's always repairing itself.

[00:51:58] Despite the fact that I'm going about wrinkly now.

[00:51:59] But again, I suppose if you think of it like that, that it's always having to do something.

[00:52:05] But deafness is getting worse.

[00:52:07] It's not going to be healed.

[00:52:09] But the hearing aids I cope and I hear enough, I'm able to switch them off if it's night time

[00:52:15] or matrimonial arguments.

[00:52:17] Push off, yeah.

[00:52:20] But the ears aren't healed but the ears are happy enough and they cope.

[00:52:24] But if I ever lost the hearing aids, that would be not good and frightening.

[00:52:31] I do have a tendency to sleep through alarms and step in front of buses.

[00:52:34] But it's okay.

[00:52:35] So it's strange.

[00:52:37] Yeah, I think we sort of agree.

[00:52:41] Yeah.

[00:52:42] Peace.

[00:52:44] Finding peace is for me, that's the...

[00:52:48] Peace.

[00:52:49] You know, you talk about expecting perfection in reunion.

[00:52:53] And expecting perfect thoughts and perfect feelings.

[00:53:02] It all comes down to expectations.

[00:53:05] People have been on the show and they said,

[00:53:08] well I'm not thriving a dog tea Simon because I sometimes feel like I'm not.

[00:53:13] I'm not.

[00:53:14] I'm not.

[00:53:16] I'm not thriving a dog tea Simon because I sometimes feel bad.

[00:53:20] Well, I never said that thriving a dog tea always feels good.

[00:53:26] I never said that.

[00:53:26] We put conditions on and clearly I do it as well.

[00:53:31] Right, yeah, I'm not blaming the other person.

[00:53:36] So is there anything...

[00:53:39] What are your thoughts on that peace thing that I've been

[00:53:43] wishing on a thing?

[00:53:45] Maybe it's because it's a Northern Ireland thing.

[00:53:47] We've had peace now for a while but it's an uneasy peace.

[00:53:51] You would never ask who won because nobody's quite sure that anybody won,

[00:53:56] but it's better than like the troubles are essentially over.

[00:53:59] So that's a good thing.

[00:54:02] But it's an uneasy peace because every now and again

[00:54:06] something can flare up.

[00:54:08] So obviously there's been the Brexit things of where is the border?

[00:54:11] Is it in the sea or is it on land?

[00:54:13] What does it mean?

[00:54:15] Yeah, it's an uneasy evolving thing.

[00:54:21] So that's peace.

[00:54:22] Yeah, it's peace.

[00:54:23] It passes for peace and 90% of the time it's great.

[00:54:27] And I mean, I was here in the 80s, it's an awful lot better,

[00:54:32] different world, different city both now.

[00:54:36] But it would be very foolish to think that everything's fine

[00:54:41] because something could happen with a flag.

[00:54:44] Tomorrow it wouldn't take much for everything to be like,

[00:54:46] oh, they're burning cars again.

[00:54:50] But I think if you're aware of that, you have the sensitivity to say,

[00:54:52] I will proceed with caution.

[00:54:54] So workplaces are careful to have things neutral and so on and so forth.

[00:55:01] Yeah, that's an interesting one.

[00:55:04] But I live in a crazy place.

[00:55:06] So I don't know if we can...

[00:55:08] Maybe Northern Ireland is like epitomizing the sort of the lost child of England and Ireland

[00:55:13] and it's sort of sitting here going, which one of you wants me?

[00:55:16] Yeah.

[00:55:17] Maybe it's the ultimate adoptee.

[00:55:18] There's an article in that now somewhere.

[00:55:22] Brilliant.

[00:55:23] Thanks, Alice.

[00:55:24] Thanks so much.

[00:55:25] Thank you.

[00:55:25] Thank you.

[00:55:26] We'll speak to you very soon.

[00:55:27] Take care.

[00:55:27] Bye-bye.

[00:55:28] Okay, thanks.

[00:55:28] Bye.