Spiritual Growth With Alejandra Brady

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. So today I'm delighted to be joined by Alejandra. Alejandra Brady, did I pronounce that Alejandra okay? You did! Yes you did. Yes you did.

[00:00:15] We didn't do a lot of Spanish at my school but we did a bit of conversational Spanish but yeah, that's as far as it goes and that's like, how many years ago is that? 40 years ago. Well we're the same age so yes it's been a minute right?

[00:00:31] It's spooky right? There's so many people, I mentioned this yesterday, so many people around our age you know and so many listeners are 40 plus right? So 40 to 60 is that plus bit. And I was talking to, after we spoke yesterday, I've talked to a social worker adoption

[00:00:55] director and adoption agency and I was asking her about, because obviously she deals with kids and adoption so I asked her this question. So have you heard this phrase coming out of the

[00:01:09] fog? Coming out of the fog? Coming out of the fog yeah, that's why I asked the adoption director right? And she had not heard that word. So do you know, like we think everybody is aware

[00:01:26] of this sort of stuff that's going on in the adoptee space but no, no. So interesting yeah. And that's a big thing so for you listeners if you're looking to do any advocacy or

[00:01:43] reach of that stuff, don't assume stuff like I did. I'm just assuming she knows that before but chances are that there's stuff going on for the kids that they weren't aware of.

[00:01:59] They couldn't put words to. You said that you weren't aware of what was going on for you until you started reading, writing your book seven years ago right? So it happened yeah seven years ago. Yeah it's just you know I was raised,

[00:02:20] I will not speak in general terms here, I was raised to feel very grateful as we chatted about earlier for being adopted and I am. I don't discount that at all but because of that

[00:02:33] there was never any questions or ever any conversations about whether or not I felt anything else other than the gratitude right? And what I've learned is that regardless of how good a situation you may have had as an adopted child, there's still those underlying

[00:02:52] feelings right of rejection, of abandonment. I learned a lot of pieces of my story once my biological mother found me. Like I was left, she was told that my adoptive parents picked me up

[00:03:05] at three days and I was told by my parents who of course I believe in both actually in this case that I was picked up at five weeks. So from three days to five weeks I was,

[00:03:19] my whereabouts are unknown you know? And from what I've been able to gather from working with healers and piecing it together by listening to different sides of the story, I was just left in a crib in an orphanage style setting at the agency, the adoptive home

[00:03:34] and basically just got a bottle stuck in my mouth and my diapers changed and nobody picked me up, nobody held me, nobody did anything. And of course you know for those of us that have had children myself included, that's the formative time when you bond with another human

[00:03:50] being. And so yeah I didn't understand why I felt some of the things that I felt when I was only supposed to feel grateful you know? And there's that huge difference between kind of spontaneous gratitude that comes from within us and forced gratitude or

[00:04:08] suggested gratitude or a command to be grateful is a lot different to it, to gratitude that bubbles up from within side us. And I was swapping texts with Jude who's done this guest co-hosting with me recently, Jude Hung and I said does this kind of

[00:04:37] forced gratitude, does that somehow, well can that make spontaneous internal gratitude for us harder? So if we've been told that we should be grateful and we haven't felt grateful, does that kind of dispose us against gratitude in the future? Does that?

[00:05:02] It does make sense. I think both things can exist at the same time. You know there is an underlying gratitude for me for the woman who gave birth to me and gave

[00:05:12] me up for adoption in hopes that I have a better life right? Yes her parents were forcing her to do it, yes the boy's family was also forcing it to happen right so she was in that situation too.

[00:05:24] But at the same time not being able to explore any other feelings was interesting too. So I think both can be right, both can exist next to each other in some respect if that makes

[00:05:39] sense. It does yeah, a few people have been telling me this over the last few months that I'm a bit too reductionist right? I'm a bit too left brain, this or this,

[00:05:51] this and this can exist. I think it can be an end. Thank you for giving me that same lesson. Maybe it will land this time right? Maybe this will land for me. It takes a few minutes for us

[00:06:02] to get some stuff through our heads doesn't it? I know it takes me several times on certain things. I'm like okay I finally am going to listen you know you can stop beating it into me.

[00:06:14] So the big question like we would like to start with these days this question, so does the word healing, does that word resonate with you or to what extent does that resonate? Absolutely 100%. I think that what I embarked upon at the age of 50 when I started writing

[00:06:33] the book and when I started going down into my spiritual awakening was a journey of healing. It was a journey of healing for that you know inner child that I didn't even know I needed

[00:06:44] because again my life has been great. I had two wonderful parents who adopted me, they've both since passed. Two years later my biological mother and her family found me. Ten years to the same week my biological father's family found me and even though that's been

[00:07:03] quite the journey on its own and I would certainly love a point to address that on this podcast at some point when it feels organic to do so is to just kind of tell people

[00:07:12] you know be careful when you go into these relationships. But they've turned out to be some of my biggest teachers and I think I needed to meet them and be a part of their family to a

[00:07:27] certain extent for however long that was in order to complete the healing of that inner child that felt you know subconsciously to me abandoned and rejected. You know when I when the first healer that I ever worked with was at Miraval in Tucson as far as this goes

[00:07:47] and she said you know you have very deep-seated feelings of abandonment rejection. I go no don't why in the world would I have that? You know and she goes this is deep, this is a

[00:07:56] mother wound and all of a sudden I was like oh whoa okay and that I needed to you know forgive my mother meaning biological for giving me up and you know and I'm like oh no but she did

[00:08:10] the best for me this is what I was you know the pattern right the repetition and the pattern and what we were I don't want to say brainwashed because I don't think my parents meant

[00:08:18] it that way but what I was taught to think and feel oh no she did the best thing she could for me. She gave me up for adoption because she was 17 you know the story the story and she

[00:08:30] goes yeah the story doesn't matter it doesn't change how you feel about being nine months in somebody's body who didn't want you to be there first of all right because she's dealing with shame and guilt and anger and everything else too and abandonment herself by her family

[00:08:46] and her boyfriend and I'm absorbing all of that while I'm in utero and then I'm born into a world where she doesn't want me the father's family doesn't want me and I'm laying there for five

[00:08:57] weeks till somebody comes and gets me like you know so it has been a journey of healing and feeling worthy without understanding why I needed to feel that you know. So we kind of sounds to me like you're pulling apart the deep emotional stuff the mother wound

[00:09:24] as your healer referred to it to the narrative you're separating the two things out. One is an embodied thing and one is a belief thing it's a head thing you're separating those

[00:09:42] two up. For me it all works together I guess I just feel like it's all one like I had to go through all of it to get to where I am now and having them show up in my life you know

[00:09:55] another layer a lot of people don't have to deal with that layer of it. So to me it all kind of was the same thing because I was going through all of it at

[00:10:05] the same time. Okay so what does healing mean to you in a sentence how would you sum it up in a sentence? Oh gosh one sentence getting to a point where I'm okay with what

[00:10:23] has happened and understanding that it doesn't define me. So acceptance and it doesn't define me so how do you define yourself? I define myself as somebody who has done the work

[00:10:48] has gotten in the muck and has done the work to get to a place where I feel a lot of peace on this topic at this point in my life and I'm grateful that they found me. I'm grateful that

[00:10:59] they were in my life for the period of time that I deemed them necessary to be there and I'm grateful for the fact that I was also strong enough to say this isn't working for me

[00:11:10] anymore and I wish you all love and peace but I no longer wish to have a relationship with you. Yeah so you know I don't know that I would have had the strength to say that had I not

[00:11:22] gone through the healing that I did you know because you would have felt like oh my god this is my family but you know for those of us that are adopted family is the people who are

[00:11:32] changing your diapers and are feeding you and all that not somebody that you share DNA with at least that's how I feel. Yeah you know and I tried to make it so but in the end it

[00:11:43] didn't work on the mother side the father's side is great but yeah I just kind of feel like I think I got a lot of strength in myself and in just who I am as a person to be able to

[00:11:57] also say no thank you because that's a hard one for a lot of people. Yeah it sounded even to me it sounded like a weird question with the identification bit. I guess what I'm kind of getting at is

[00:12:20] my biggest you know the catalyst not the catalyst the biggest part of my healing stuff I would say was actually 17 years ago going on a retreat and sharing we all shared our stories the eight of us and these weren't adoptees they were just you know

[00:12:44] two people running the retreat six people including me on it we shared our stories and then we kind of we disidentified from them right so we put some space between what had happened to us and who we were we disidentified from the story.

[00:13:10] And disidentifying from the story is also I guess realizing that a lot of our beliefs were incorrect right and also kind of realizing that the inner voice in our head so the narrator the unreliable narrator is unreliable the voice in our head is a liar

[00:13:49] and the story that we're telling ourselves isn't true and so it was a whole week of that that stuff of sharing the story and then kind of disidentifying from it and that was I think

[00:14:05] that was what was behind my question in terms of how you identify how do you identify and I was also the other thing is you also talked about a spiritual stuff so I was thinking well would

[00:14:24] does Alejandra identify as you know the spiritual being having the human experience? 100% yes I am a spiritual being having a human experience for sure yeah and apparently I chose to come back at this time in this body in this situation you know for a purpose so hopefully

[00:14:48] I'm fulfilling that now by sharing my story and by talking to others about the adoption story that is mine. So what does it mean to you or what does it mean to you or what does it mean

[00:15:02] in just I use that that quote all the time I can never remember that I can remember never remember how to pronounce the guy's name we said that but when sometimes a lot when I say

[00:15:17] that to people who are not into that sort of stuff they look at me really blindly so how would you explain that to somebody that hasn't isn't already on that sort of speak? Honestly I don't even know that you can in all

[00:15:42] honesty I have so many friends who are not into all of this and into the spirituality and any time I broach any kind of conversation and spirituality that blank look comes over their

[00:15:55] face or they immediately get defensive and say I don't believe in that stuff like I'm going to start talking about witchcraft and perform an exorcism on them or something so I have not had

[00:16:09] much experience in talking to people who don't want to hear it because I feel like I get shut down very quickly so that's just being you know that's just being truthful so now I try and find

[00:16:22] people and I do have people that come to me now you know my tribe is growing as I'm seeking other like-minded individuals that I can have these conversations with but by that point they

[00:16:33] already feel that way right but the ones that don't I unless they're ready to I haven't seen a way to get through I haven't been able to talk to anybody who 100% didn't and then suddenly was

[00:16:47] open to in my experience. Okay so that's kind of reassuring because it's not just me. No it's very it's very challenging and you know you have to know their boundaries too and

[00:17:01] I try and be very I like people to be respective of mine so I try and be very respectful of others so you know I can feel immediately if they just don't even want to go down that path or have

[00:17:14] that kind of conversation in any way shape or form and I will pivot out of respect to them you know but I always tell them you know if you ever want to I'm here let me know and we'll dive into it hasn't happened yet that's okay.

[00:17:29] How was did you did you use the word spiritual awakening I think is that the word? Yes I had a spiritual awakening yes my spiritual awakening came at 50 and that's when my spiritual journey

[00:17:39] started that I'm sure I will be on for the rest of my life. Yeah and how did it start? Mine started I have to pivot for a minute I've had gifts since I was a child I just didn't realize

[00:17:53] that nobody else had them or that I was the only one around the people around me who had them you know I just kind of thought oh everyone can talk to dead people you know everyone sees

[00:18:01] dead people everyone gets messages it never occurred to me that I maybe was not like everybody else so when I turned 50 out of nowhere I had to have cervical fusion I have

[00:18:14] a big scar right here I have a plate with six screws in my neck and in order to get ready for that cervical fusion I was working with a client who was much more energetically inclined than I

[00:18:25] was and she started mentioning things to me and it's interesting because I think you can pick up if somebody is interested so you'll throw out a breadcrumb and see if they you know want

[00:18:34] more so she started saying things to me and she just said one day I hired this feng shui practitioner to come to my home and she said that if she does more than one consultation

[00:18:45] that she won't charge travel time do you want a consultation since you're about to go into surgery maybe she can help you know get your bedroom ready or whatever it is now I'm already an

[00:18:54] interior designer so my bedroom's been redone a gazillion times but the thought of having it done energetically since I was going to be spending a lot of time in there I was going

[00:19:04] to be in the neck brace from here to here so you can't read you can't drive you can't work you can just look straight ahead that's it so I was going to be spending a lot of time in

[00:19:12] bed watching tv basically is what it was going to amount to I said yes she came to my home within 10 minutes she told me you're going to be doing this I said no no no just tell

[00:19:22] me what I need to do to get ready for surgery like I have no intention of doing this sure enough I did what she said I had my surgery the energy in our house shifted so

[00:19:31] dramatically that I'm like I need to be doing this and I think that was the catalyst like I suddenly wanted to do something not just to make things look beautiful but to make things

[00:19:43] feel beautiful and it was the first time that I really started feeling that I could work with energy and then that kind of left led to my wanting to learn about meditation learn about

[00:19:54] reiki learn about feng shui I went back and I went to her and I asked if I could you know she'd take me on as a student since she said it'd be doing this and she said yes and

[00:20:03] I got certified under her and that's kind of what opened the door to the spiritual world for me because I'd heard about these things but I hadn't ever really been interested in them

[00:20:15] and as I became more interested and as I worked with healers and as we talked about things they showed me what my gifts were and how I could use them to help others and I found that

[00:20:28] incredible you know and then that's what kind of led to my doing what I do now which you know I work with energy I am an energy worker I'm an energy healer light worker pick your name for me

[00:20:40] but I do it through your home you know and although I have mediumship abilities and I have oracle capabilities I am able to receive messages from people who've passed I don't work

[00:20:51] that way with others I come in and I talk to your house and your house will tell me what's going on and whatever's going on with your house is going on with you so I use my gifts that way

[00:21:04] so how did the two things sit together the the healing and the spiritual awakening what's the relationship between those it was all happening at the exact same time I went to work with healers at Miraval which is the first place I went that I started working

[00:21:24] with spiritual healers truly because I thought that I was going to get these clients who wanted feng shui who knew all about spirituality but I didn't and they were going to know a lot

[00:21:35] more about modalities and I wanted to be informed when I went to talk to them so I literally just went there to kind of do research for what I was going to be doing

[00:21:44] for work and you know then I walked into that first class and she goes mother issues you know deep rooted resentment and abandonment issues and all that I'm like well wait a second what

[00:21:55] are we talking about here like I just was going to do reiki today you know so I went for one thing and it led to the other okay so feng shui to me is like it was my gateway to all of

[00:22:08] this and because I energetically aligned my house I think that I was ready for the healing you know I think you also have to be at a point where you're ready and I was ready and so I went

[00:22:22] with one intention and session after session after session especially that first time that I went was all about the mother wound abandonment rejection the fact that I had gifts how to differentiate them how to work with them how to protect myself and I was like this was not

[00:22:40] what I thought I was coming here at all I spent a week there and cried I don't know how many hours every single day which I wasn't expecting you know connected with my parents who'd passed which

[00:22:53] I wasn't expecting all these things happened that became part of my healing and it all happened because I went for a completely different reason right but I was ready I guess I was

[00:23:06] open I was ready I was ready to move on and to heal yeah so it is healing about a change of energy that is that I think so I think it's a little bit of everything right I think it's a change in

[00:23:20] our energy I think it is acknowledging what we've been through and you know I did cry for that little girl who was left there in the bassinet for five weeks you know you have

[00:23:34] to go through the grief of it too and the grief of being abandoned and the grief of feeling rejected I did a lot of crying for her I did a lot of talking to her and telling her that everything

[00:23:44] was going to work out okay you know and then I think you get to the acceptance and then I think after that you get to well how can I use what I've learned to help others and pay

[00:23:58] it forward yeah and that's sort of where I am you know at this point you know and it's okay to still you know feel resentment or feel whatever you feel towards those people I don't think

[00:24:10] there's anything wrong with that you just can't let that be your guide anymore because one of my views on healing is that it's about being less concerned with you know the things like

[00:24:28] resentment so I sometimes say to people that I'm more interested in who I am than how I feel yeah I'm looking at you know so what I mean by that is you know the spiritual being having

[00:24:50] the human experience or the human experience in with that human experience I'm going to put all the trauma and I'm going to break and I'm defining trauma as you know resentment anger fear insecurity loss grief all those things I'm fairly and squarely putting those in the human

[00:25:20] experience stuff but I'm looking at this from I'm more interested in the essence of who I am and who we are that spiritual being stuff so I'm more interested in who I am

[00:25:37] than how I feel that's quite a left-brainy kind of hard blokey sort of things to say to somebody that's you know like a light worker or I think that's just it you have to have the

[00:25:53] human part of this story to be able to connect with others if you are just always light and love and it's very hard to connect you know I think in order to

[00:26:07] use the spiritual gifts that I have it's of the essence that I went through some of those human experiences because that is how I relate to somebody else and then I can show them the spiritual side of things or why it was for their benefit or you know

[00:26:24] yeah how to move past the trauma whether it's big t little t whatever it may be in your situation how to move past it yeah you know because otherwise if you're just always and I have

[00:26:37] worked with healers who are so floating above the clouds 24 7 that they can't relate to anything and I find I don't relate to them you know I'm like no no you have to understand

[00:26:50] like this hurt you know and if they can't see that if it's just about the I am all the time it's very hard to relate to another soul yeah yeah for me this is all for me how I work

[00:27:07] that's making a lot of sense to me and I can see some of my errors in that regard you're talking about I think you're talking a lot about parenting your own inner child

[00:27:23] I had to but and I didn't even know that I had to but that's what came out of you know three years in I started this at 50 at 53 I was still working with healers on a regular

[00:27:34] basis and I thought I'd kind of cleared all the mother stuff you know and six months later I'll walk in somewhere they're like we need to talk about your your mother wound I'm like oh

[00:27:42] my god when is this going to be done you know because like you know the human side of us is like okay I did the work I'm done like can we move on but there's so many layers to some of

[00:27:54] this stuff that goes so deep for us who have been adopted whether it's a good situation or bad situation you just have to keep excavating and and parenting that you know inner child so

[00:28:07] that they feel safe because when they feel safe then you can take deeper breaths I feel so you talked about the healing for the rest of our lives or the rest of your lives you're like I'm with that and but you're also referring to the I am

[00:28:30] and the I am bit is the kind of is that the unwoundable bit is that the bit that is untouched by our trauma how do you I think that's more our soul right that's like who we

[00:28:44] who we are I am somebody who does believe that we can come back you know so I think that's that person that soul that being that light being that's inside of us right the spirit who's having the experience but that doesn't mean that we're not having the experience

[00:29:01] we're still having the experience yeah the experience is the experience yeah right right and we need to be able to work with both I feel you know yeah there's a million places to go from that I know so do do particular any particular healing moments come

[00:29:28] to mind Alejandro the very first one that I talked about that I touched on you know when I literally got put into a fetal position with with that healer at Miraval and just cried and

[00:29:43] cried and cried and mind you I thought I was walking into a reiki session like this is not where I thought this was going to go but that was the very first time that I realized that

[00:29:53] these things were going on deep down inside me that I didn't even realize and how they were affecting you know just how I looked at the world you know it was just such a huge deal to me

[00:30:05] if I wasn't included in something with a group of friends like you know that it was so touchy that feeling of oh you weren't included oh we didn't pick you growing up was just such a

[00:30:16] trigger and now I'm act careless you know if somebody calls me if they don't call me which it turned out to be the opposite I have more people around me now but uh you know just

[00:30:26] understanding why some of those feelings that I hadn't had the terminology to put to them you know it really helped it really really helped a lot so I think that one was the most significant and then I spent a year when we lived in Sedona working with an

[00:30:45] amazing healer there that we did a lot of inner child work too and just how to move through it and past it right because you got to go through it you can't just jump over it

[00:30:58] and then what else has been a really good my meditation I have a daily meditation practice I get up every morning and I meditate before I either get out of bed or I run to my meditation

[00:31:08] room and do it there all the dogs come in and jump all over me while I'm doing it and everybody conks out and lays out it's really cute uh I think that finding stillness every day also helps me tremendously and honestly having met them and having them

[00:31:26] be a part of my life for the time that they were a part of my life I think really helped towards the healing so I mean we talked before I died we talked about coming out of the fog in

[00:31:38] that conversation that I'd had with um with an adoption agency social worker yesterday there's a sense for me that you we're going to be becoming out of um we're going to be coming out of the fog forever it's it's it's uh becoming conscious of the subconscious

[00:32:02] and then becoming conscious of more subconscious and then and it's a it's a repetitive ongoing system that ongoing process of surfacing the stuff that we haven't seen before right and there may be something that triggers you five years from now that you know you hadn't come

[00:32:21] across yet so I do think that it'll be a lifelong process and and I'm okay with that you know I'm okay with that that's part of my journey so yeah it is because just when you

[00:32:33] think you're okay with things is when something happens and you're like where where did that reaction come from and it comes from something that will stem back to that the adoption

[00:32:45] that you probably already thought you were totally fine with you know kind of like when I went in three years later and I'm like we're still talking about this am I not done yet you know

[00:32:54] was there a was there a moment where where you where the impatience dropped away for this was there a moment where my was was was there a moment when the you know you're saying like

[00:33:11] I was you know are we done with this yet and I'm asking what was there a moment when um when the impatience dropped away probably now I'm much less impatient now I think at

[00:33:26] the beginning I am a type A I am a Virgo you know I'm an oldest child so I am used to like let's just get it done you know let's get it done okay this is broken let's fix it move on

[00:33:39] so when I thought I've done the work I've put in my time it should be all fixed and then at that three-year mark when it wasn't I'm like are you freaking kidding me and then I understood

[00:33:53] this is never going to be fixed right we're just going to get to a better place for me to be able to deal with it and a better maybe perspective for me to see the entire situation

[00:34:07] but now I understand yeah it's not I'm not done I'll never be done you know and and that's okay now I'm fine with it but at the beginning I just wanted you know same as I was getting all my

[00:34:18] spiritual gifts and understanding them I needed validation you know if somebody said oh you're very clear-audient I'm like okay so tonight I need to hear a voice in my head tell me

[00:34:27] something so that I believe what I'm being told I'm just that person so I just wanted it to check it off my to-do list my husband says you know you and your to-do list like I wanted

[00:34:37] to check it off my to-do list okay done with this healing done with this done with the mother wound done check you know and yes now I understand that it probably never will be and

[00:34:48] and that's okay I'm just at a different place with it so you you mentioned one of my favorite words right which is perspective so how do you put how do you see perspectives and healing

[00:35:04] how do you how do you see the relationship between those two I think when you've done the work then you have a better perspective on the entire situation and what has helped me

[00:35:20] a lot and writing the book was a huge part of my healing journey because I was forced to go back and relive things and I remember my editor telling me when I wrote something a

[00:35:33] particular experience that happened with the biological family she said to me you know you sound very hard here you sound like you're making them the villains and you the victim and I think you need to see it from a different perspective and I remember thinking well I was

[00:35:50] really mad they did something that really hurt me I was the victim you know and she goes no I don't think that's the story you're trying to get across based on the rest of the book

[00:35:59] go back and look at it from a different perspective and that stuck with me and I went back and I almost rewrote almost the majority of the book from a different perspective for that reason understanding that everybody was on their own journey and everybody was doing what

[00:36:15] they felt was best 90 percent of the time right there's a few things that they know they did incorrectly but let's just say for the sake of argument everybody's doing their best all the time

[00:36:27] and when I'm able to now back away and look at things from more than just my perspective and see well why what was she feeling that led to this what was she feeling that led to this you

[00:36:39] know from other perspectives then I get a much better understanding which then leads to empathy which then leads I think to further my own healing you know because nobody was doing anything you know I love that quote and I don't remember who said it either but you know

[00:36:55] things are not happening to you they're happening for you and and I strongly believe that now I used to believe everything was happening to me I'm the victim I'm the victim I'm the victim

[00:37:06] and I don't feel that way at all anymore I feel it's happening for me whatever it is is happening for me for a reason whether it's for myself or for me to help someone else or for me to be

[00:37:16] able to share the story whatever it is yeah but you have to see other people's perspectives too right I mean I don't think there's a lot of parents who just gave up their children

[00:37:29] for absolutely no reason there was a reason why they felt that that was their only choice and I don't think that probably doesn't get talked about a lot right so and this is have

[00:37:42] you read the Anne Fessler book I have not yeah so um the ones who went away the mothers went away that I read it ages and ages ago and it's basically it's empathy for birth

[00:37:55] mothers right so she's an adoptee who interviewed birth mothers that's as far as I can remember and that's what other people tell me right so reading that book um we we don't shift our own

[00:38:13] perspective perspective is shifted for us you know it's like uh we can't make we can't make respect we can't make perspective shifts happen they happen when we see the world differently and we see the world differently when we read something new and we think uh right I've I've

[00:38:37] got a different a different perspective has landed for me on the basis of some information that I have read it's given me a new way of seeing things so um shifts in perspectives to

[00:38:53] me seem to be a really big part of healing it's when absolutely yeah no absolutely I think you need that because otherwise you're staying in a very myopic view right it's just you you you

[00:39:08] you you but there's more than just you involved yeah yeah yeah yeah and meeting her you know hearing her version of the story helps shift my perspective too and understand it yeah you know something that I listened I'm I'm interviewing a therapist called Corey Skolnick next month for

[00:39:36] the podcast so she's not an adoptee but she's done a lot for uh you know I'm adoptee advocacy and birth mother advocacy in those areas and she's written she's written a book uh she's

[00:39:51] written a novel and it's set around the time that we were born right so that the the adoptive the the son um is uh born a year after us so that he's born in 60 rather than

[00:40:02] 67 and um it's got a completely different take uh it's got a completely different well it gave me a huge insight into the adoptive mother's mother right so the adoptive mother's mother was very religious yep and very anti-adoption and uh the reading

[00:40:34] reading this this adoptive mother's words uh it's to me it sounded like something from the middle ages you know not something that was going on so at this point in the story I think

[00:40:48] late 60s late 60s the the baby is uh the adopted boy um is is walking so you know and talking so he's one or two right probably two and so this is she's repeating and and I was

[00:41:04] just thinking about that and and because we think we think about adoptive mothers sorry we think of birth mothers but the um the clarity that she brought in in this to this um birth you know adoptive mother's mother and I'm thinking well that's an

[00:41:26] adoptive mother's mother what on earth is the birth mother's mother like um and you know we're talking so we're talking about people that were raised in maybe during um the second world war

[00:41:44] so there's that threat of you know in the UK Hitler invading or taking over the the world there's that rationing and and all that scarcity stuff and all that fear going on

[00:41:58] um so yeah that was a real eye-opener for me to to think about adopted parent adopted mother's mother and birth mother's mother and stuff going on with that so so I talked to my birth mother a lot about her mother and her parents because you know she felt

[00:42:22] trapped right so she was it's not the way it is now that's the other thing that we have to remember too you know now you see pregnant girls going to high school and going to school and

[00:42:32] it's a much more accepted situation but teenagers that got pregnant out of wedlock in the time frame that you and I were born in um it was not okay right so her parents

[00:42:46] her parents forced her to go away for nine months to an adopt a home for unwed mothers catholic by nuns who of course I mean can you imagine you know the nuns were already

[00:42:59] a certain way and then they're dealing with a whole bunch of women that they feel are whores let's call it what it is right um and then her parents lied so the birth mother's mother

[00:43:11] and father lied to everybody and said that their daughter was away visiting an aunt in California so everything was about lies and deception and shame and you're a whore and you're this and you're that uh so you know that that helped me understand a lot too

[00:43:31] because I've I've raised a child our son's 29 he's about to be 30 you know I know what a 17 year old is like that's a lot for a 17 year old you know and granted people are going

[00:43:43] to say you put yourself in that situation whatever people make mistakes take that part out of it the aftermath of your decision to have sex before you got married with your boyfriend that led to a pregnancy is it's almost like the punishment didn't fit the crime you know

[00:43:59] what I mean like it was it was very harsh for her and that gave me a lot of perspective and empathy for her and back to gratitude well thank you for still carrying me to term

[00:44:09] and giving me a shot at a better life right so you can get there you can get there by understanding what they must have gone through too on the other hand my adoptive parents

[00:44:23] my grandparents I was very close to them so in our situation everyone was like whoo-hoo yay yay yay so I didn't have an issue on that end of things yeah yeah can you talk

[00:44:32] to me a little bit about the energy then and by the the in particular I'm thinking about the energy coming off or the yeah the energetic repercussions right so we're in we're in

[00:44:49] utero whenever I get near this whenever I get near this topic all I can think of is the fact that we were all I can say is we were pickered pickled in cortisol right pick pick

[00:45:03] 100% 100% and that's about as far as I get I can I can go right so that that's a big piece but since you're an energy worker I I get the opinion I get the idea that you'll be able to

[00:45:19] put a bit more you and because you're a mother and like me my my mom and missus haven't got any kids right so you're a mother but can you can you put a bit more

[00:45:31] can you big um can you help me and the the listeners understand more about that energy stuff that's going on within our birth mothers yeah sure well I mean think about when you feel that you are in a high stress shameful

[00:45:51] horrible situation whatever that is and then like you just said I think that's a perfect description we were pickled in cortisol I mean you know I I had never thought about that and

[00:46:02] as I was going through the inner child work my healers helped me see that too it's like I was just stewing as a lot of us are right because of course something that was not an

[00:46:14] optimal situation led to our birth mothers having to give us up so I doubt that there was a birth mother who gave up a child out there maybe there's one or two who felt the way

[00:46:24] I did when I was pregnant with my child it was a joyous occasion we were happy we were nesting we were creating a home for them they were thrown out in the wild for the most part

[00:46:37] a lot of them right so energetically that child absorbs all of it 100% which is why we feel the feelings that we do which is very very very normal um and again I only learned

[00:46:53] that going through my healing and working with healers who who explained that to me because it really took me a minute I just kept saying no I have no reason why to feel abandoned or

[00:47:05] feel rejected I was told I was special I was chosen and you know all the the the good words that go along with it and they're like no I mean you were for nine months while your little

[00:47:16] body and soul are being formed you were in this woman's body who had nothing but unhappiness and shame and guilt you know and rejection from her family rejection from the the boyfriend

[00:47:32] and from the his family I mean it's just picture any negative emotion you can think of and these poor birth mothers were going through all of it yeah and we were cooking in that yeah so

[00:47:43] you know I mean I'm not surprised that then people turn to other means to cope with those feelings because you don't understand why you're having them now that I understand what I'm

[00:47:55] having them you know I've been able to clear that energy out of me by doing a lot of energy work but you you have to figure out a way to clear it one way or another because

[00:48:04] otherwise it's just going to take over so we kind of we're back to the embodied stuff rather than the belief stuff yeah we're talking we talk I mean the pre-verbal non-verbal right yeah the stuff that we become acclimatized to and I was thinking about

[00:48:26] as you were talking I was thinking about I'm thinking you know so from our perspective yeah pickled in cortisol right so our environment we're in the womb and then I was thinking about so that that's our environment what environment is our birth mother in

[00:48:46] when you talked about being sent away for nine months to this to this home um my birth mother was sent away I don't know how long she was sent away for but I'm thinking about her environment right I'm thinking about her environment and the I mean the

[00:49:08] your Catholic the whole Catholic premise is guilt anyway so it's guilt for everybody right is guilt and shame you know guilt shame anger resent all of it yeah and her environment affects us inside of her yeah no it's it's it's um it's been a fascinating journey

[00:49:36] so far to understand that I'm sure as I move through life other layers will come and other things will you know be uncovered but I just want other people who are going through this

[00:49:49] to understand that it's very validated if they feel these feelings that they can't put words to or they don't understand why they have them like me you know where the minute that

[00:49:59] I was brought into my parents house who raised me all the all the negative words were flipped into positive ones right but there was still that undertone and those feelings that I didn't

[00:50:11] understand why I had them so it's okay if you feel that way so this this I mean it's one of those dough moments you know like that happened to me I think it was early this year something

[00:50:23] like somebody pointed out right she said right okay there's there's relinquishment trauma there's trauma to you to relinquish one and there's trauma in the adoptive family and it's two completely different things right so they however good however good

[00:50:44] the the the situation the doctor in the doctor home it ain't it ain't gonna wipe out it's not gonna overcome the previous trauma they're really right trauma stuff right and the other thing that was popping into my head was I was thinking about

[00:51:04] there's a fable a story goes around and I think this was I think I got this in kind of personal development and business development stuff it was the idea that if you put a

[00:51:17] you put a frog in a in a in a saucepan of cold water yeah water you turn it up then the frog dies right right um but if you if you put if you try and put the fog into the hot water

[00:51:33] don't try this at home kids no no no please don't uh you know if you put the try and put that it jumps straight out so it's kind of like the um we slowly cooked it slowly cooked yeah and

[00:51:48] it's the normal it's the norm right we we are uh we have become habituated to the the cortisol level within our birth mother's womb there's a there's another part of me that

[00:52:05] saying to this uh can we overcook it and do you know what I mean like um so let me give you a it's a it's a strange one right so but I have these strange thoughts like maybe you did too um

[00:52:23] so we haven't got any kids but we have had we've now got two dogs and they are our third and fourth dog and the third one especially cried on her first night the fourth one not so much

[00:52:41] right and and I can think I can you know when I'm here I'm lying in bed and I can hear the dog crying I can think that was what I was like right I have no memory of

[00:52:54] that clearly you you were five weeks old I was about that as well right I'd been in short term foster care my birth mother handed me over to a short term foster fosterer foster

[00:53:10] parent whatever once so she gave me away twice right she handed me over to her and then she went to her house and picked me up and brought me to the adoption agency so she had to do it

[00:53:21] twice right so that's kind of pretty much all I know about that five-week period um but I can I can hear a dog crying on her first night away from her mum and I can think

[00:53:41] was I like that and my little creative mind can overcook that right so it can really kind of limp it on that feeling that idea you know and and and that can quite easily take me into a place

[00:54:01] of you know victimhood you talked about your editor right right you know pointing out this stuff to you um so I'm wondering you know can we overcome this stuff can can we can we

[00:54:16] catastrophize it because I can I can see myself doing that with this little strange example we probably can however I think and maybe it is because I have given birth and been a mom

[00:54:32] it takes me back to having more empathy for the birth mother because I remember hearing my child cry in the middle of the night and so my birth mother said she had me in the room

[00:54:42] with her for the first three days I mean can you imagine like I mean just trying to put myself in her shoes I when I'd had my son in the room with me for three days like nobody in hell was

[00:54:53] going to take him away from me you know and to have these nuns come in and go okay give the baby over they lied to her too her adoptive parents are here now go home and pretend

[00:55:03] this never happened and I remember and this is because she told me this story directly this is how I know this and I just remember thinking oh my god I can't think of anything worse you know

[00:55:16] so if I was feeling in a place of victimhood before that which at some point I'm sure I was understanding this and understanding how that must have felt for her made me have more empathy towards her which led to me feeling like less of a victim

[00:55:34] if that makes sense and we've had 11 dogs so I get the dog thing and it is it is very hard and our dogs are like our babies too you know so I if I can't even stand to hear the dog cry

[00:55:47] imagine how it must feel to hear the baby cry and then have that baby taken away from you not because you necessarily wanted it to but because your parents forced it to happen and you

[00:55:58] didn't feel you had another choice and you know so that takes me out of the victim mentality and more into a place of empathy for her which once again everybody was just doing what they

[00:56:10] felt was the best that they could do at the time yeah you know and to me that is what's really helped me move on I just really truly accept that everybody did what they felt was

[00:56:22] right for everybody involved at that time yeah you know and then that takes it out of like what my editor was saying they're the villains and you're the victim it just kind of says here's what happened you know I mean here's what happened basically that's the bottom line

[00:56:40] here's what happened yeah you know so um slight change of tack have you have you got any have you got any kind of notions of ideas that have kind of gotten got in the way on

[00:57:02] your healing journey have you have you had have there been any hurdles on that journey I'm sure there have been honestly I mean a lot of it took place during COVID we moved we moved

[00:57:18] back I was writing a book um I think the biggest hurdle probably for me was having to relive a lot of it because I was writing the book honestly you know because again everything

[00:57:31] for me was happening at the same time and I think that's the way it was supposed to happen for me to get the story out I don't know that if I hadn't followed through with writing the book

[00:57:42] that I would be where I am on my healing journey because I wouldn't be forced to go back and revisit those things the good the bad and the ugly and try and see them

[00:57:54] from a different perspective which then helped me move forward I got stuck on some stuff I got stuck on um when my mom died who I call my mom my adoptive mom I got very stuck there

[00:58:07] because I was really angry she dropped out of a heart attack when she was 66 and it took me several years to not be mad at her and so when I had to relive all that and write about

[00:58:17] that in the book like I would just throw the computer and walk out of the room like it was very very hard for me to get past that part and be okay with her leaving me if

[00:58:28] that makes sense um I didn't want to see at times what part I played in holding me back and you also have to accept the parts that you play to move forward uh and I just

[00:58:48] sometimes I just didn't want to accept I think that was another one for me like I just I can easily say it now I accept everybody is where they are now I couldn't the whole you

[00:58:58] know it took a minute to get to that spot because I did want to be mad you know it was easier to be mad at people than to say what I just said you know two minutes ago which is everybody

[00:59:11] did what they felt was the best but that didn't happen overnight you know it it I had to want to feel that way at some point and get past the I'm just going to be pissed off at you

[00:59:24] for the rest of my life because what does that get you yeah that makes sense yeah it does I've got an interesting I've got an interesting take on this or maybe a different slight difference

[00:59:38] between the two sure um I see I don't think we can make this I don't think we can try so that's it right I don't think we can try and have an insight I don't think we can

[00:59:54] but no that wouldn't move like you did at the start I love the way that you did that I didn't compliment you at the time um you said let's let's not make this general I'm

[01:00:03] talking about me so I don't think that I can try and have an insight I don't think I can try and accept that everybody was doing the best it's almost as if

[01:00:17] um the best I can do is be open and then the insight happens or an insight happens or it doesn't or uh I have a spontaneous it's a bit like that spontaneous gratitude stuff

[01:00:35] that we're talking about the top right so I'm we go near the gratitude thing I know that a lot of adoptees have been told to be grateful and they haven't felt grateful and so if you go anywhere near that they think well and that's why I always distinguish

[01:00:50] I always distinguish between spontaneous in internal gratitude and forced gratitude right I don't think I can't force I can't force myself to be grateful but I can have I can see things differently if I keep on trying and keep on going along the journey then you know

[01:01:14] so something happened last year with my biological dad when he told me not to call him again right then and I'm thinking I'm viewing him one way right and then six months later

[01:01:29] seven months later eight months later I speak to a cousin and I found out that my biological father was in care himself ah right ah that and I didn't make that happen

[01:01:45] I didn't I didn't make myself I didn't try to think better of my biological father when I found when when when I heard the truth or a new piece of information was revealed to me that

[01:02:00] gave me a different take on it so it's not about trying to have an insight it's about insights happening when new new information comes to light I also think you need to be ready

[01:02:17] do you know what I mean like I don't think I was ready to hear any of this or to work on any of this until I was 50 like I don't think if that information had

[01:02:28] come to me at an earlier age that I would have been ready to listen ready to be open to it and I think being open and ready to heal because I definitely was ready to heal and

[01:02:43] to move forward with my life in a different way um and I think when we're ready for that change is when we become more open and maybe that is what helped facilitate

[01:02:52] healing process for me you know um but I think you have to be ready at whatever level that means and and whatever it means for everybody again there I don't think there's a right and a wrong

[01:03:07] like I you know I really don't I feel that every situation is unique every grouping of people is unique and I don't know I just in my case I was ready in my case understanding a little

[01:03:22] bit more of their lives helped me with my healing as well and doing the ugly work for me helped me with my healing um with your dad I mean maybe he didn't want to contact you because

[01:03:35] he knew he was declining in health and didn't want you to see him that way I mean you just you don't know what's going on in their minds and why they're making the decisions

[01:03:42] that they're making you know yeah yeah ready is a good word yeah ready and ready and open and timing timing I think is absolutely everything you know it just for me it all hit at 50 which

[01:04:00] was just a lot I mean it's it's a lot to have hit at one time but that was obviously when it was my time to do it you know and I said yes and I embraced it and I said I'm willing to do the

[01:04:14] work to get to the next level whatever that is in my healing and so here I am and hopefully it continues to move forward cool yeah and hopefully we're helping others by having these conversations I hope so that's the that's the goal right that's the end goal yes

[01:04:37] yeah so I was always listening I'd encourage you I don't I don't know if I say this on every episode but you know there's always show notes with these with these podcasts and in the show notes

[01:04:48] you can find out more about the the guest you can find links to their book if they've got a book or their website and their socials and stuff like that um Alejandra was telling me

[01:05:00] instagram's her thing so we'll put a link to her instagram is there anything else that you'd like to share something that I've not asked you about or any random stuff I think the only thing I'd

[01:05:15] like to share I touched on it earlier because this is happening so much because of websites like Ancestry and 23andMe and all of this stuff you know there are families who are finding each other and I don't want to discourage anyone from looking I'm not saying that I

[01:05:35] myself did not look but I was found by both sides I would just encourage everyone to really take your time if this situation presents itself for you do not rush into meeting in person take your time and get to know them over the phone through emails

[01:05:55] make sure when you do meet them in person you are in a place where you know you don't I did it all wrong this is why I'm saying all this that you're in a place that you can get up

[01:06:06] and and walk away from if you feel overwhelmed and understand that it may be great for a little while but maybe not great forever and ask the questions that you have don't be afraid

[01:06:18] to ask them but just really go into it with your eyes open I went into it with a very open heart but my eyes were closed and I think in the end they have still been some of my greatest

[01:06:33] teachers and I'm talking strictly biological mother side biological father side I did it differently having learned what I learned from the way I went into it with the mother side and I still have a very nice relationship with a half brother so sometimes you do get

[01:06:47] beautiful benefits you know there's this whole other family that I now conversate with and my my brother and I visit and I know his kids he knows mine you know so there's there's a lot

[01:06:57] of beautiful positive benefits to it too but just I did everything wrong I said yes to meeting him really quickly I flew to where they lived I agreed to stay at their house so there was no

[01:07:11] and mind you nothing bad happened but like there was no escape you know and her husband was very insistent on trying to find things that were similar like I love to cook oh well she loves

[01:07:26] to cook you love to cook you must get that from her it's like well no my mom likes to cook too the one that actually taught me how to cook you know so there's a lot that

[01:07:34] will go on in your head if you're presented with this situation and just I cannot stress enough take it as slow as possible and you know if you do interact with them and you decide that

[01:07:46] you don't want to meet that's okay too you don't have to just because you share DNA you don't have to I just think there's so many cans of worms opening all over the world with this

[01:07:58] ancestry stuff good and bad right I mean I have a lot of medical knowledge that I didn't know about me before which has been very helpful so there's a lot of positives as well

[01:08:07] but I just I never thought I'd be navigating you know two more families and interacting with them and then not only them I'm not talking only birth mother birth father but their families and

[01:08:19] how do their families and their kids feel about hi guess what it's me you know the mistake that you guys made when you were 17 you know so there's just so many layers to it so

[01:08:30] if I can encourage anybody to just take it slow if you find yourself in that situation please do just for your own mental health yeah fantastic yeah yeah I rushed in as well with

[01:08:44] the biodats and it doesn't always work well it didn't work at all no um right so uh thank you yeah you're welcome the hours just flown by is it already been an hour oh my goodness

[01:09:00] wow yes has flown by good on you thanks alyandre and thank you listeners we'll speak to you again very soon take care love it thank you so much bye