Stepping Up Andy Coppenhall

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted

[00:00:06] to be joined by Andy, Andy Coppenhall. Looking forward to our conversation Andy.

[00:00:12] So am I, I'm definitely looking forward to it.

[00:00:14] Yeah, so this is a first, listeners, we have a birth dad on the show. So these, they're

[00:00:24] elusive, you're elusive characters right in this world. There's not a lot of awareness

[00:00:29] right about birth fathers. So we're, this is a first, we're breaking, we're breaking

[00:00:35] cover. She's breaking, he's breaking cover.

[00:00:39] Wow. It's just one of them that we come across each other just over a week ago and we're here

[00:00:46] now.

[00:00:47] Yeah. So I was hosting a panel, lived experience panel at an adoption conference listeners and

[00:00:56] helping to bump into Andy and he was, he was on the panel as a birth dad. So there were

[00:01:01] there's a birth, birth dad with Andy, birth mom called Christy who was also coming on the

[00:01:07] show. And also two, two fellow adoptees. So I said, Tony, do you know, you're doing some

[00:01:15] great, you're doing some great stuff in terms of getting there and speaking. Do you want to

[00:01:19] fancy coming on the podcast? So, so here he is. Yeah. Brilliant stuff. Brilliant stuff.

[00:01:24] Thank you for having me.

[00:01:25] Yeah. And a fellow, fellow Brit and a fellow Northerner, right? He's from the wrong side of

[00:01:30] the North of England. What we say is the wrong side of the North of England. He thinks it's

[00:01:35] the right side, don't he?

[00:01:36] Well, apparently it's a nicer side.

[00:01:39] Ah, right. Okay. Okay. So it's, it's, it's Lancashire, right?

[00:01:45] No, Cheshire.

[00:01:46] Cheshire, right.

[00:01:47] Cheshire.

[00:01:47] Cheshire. So it's a bit south of, bit south of Lancashire?

[00:01:52] Yeah.

[00:01:53] Yeah.

[00:01:53] More northwest.

[00:01:54] More northwest, right.

[00:01:55] Yeah.

[00:01:58] So I normally ask the guests because normally adoptees, what does thriving adoptees mean to

[00:02:04] them? But clearly we're talking about you today. And so what, a broader question then.

[00:02:10] So what does, what does thriving mean to you, Andy?

[00:02:13] Um, thriving to me is, uh, me going to support groups and helping other birth parents, um,

[00:02:27] overcome the fears of adoption. Uh, something that I didn't have, uh, for a good seven years

[00:02:34] or so, um, until I come into contact with PAC UK. Um, so pretty much having that, um, support

[00:02:47] from PAC has given me that option and that confidence to go out and give others the belief

[00:02:57] that there is an afterlife after adoption. Um, we, we do usually get told, um, when we have to say goodbye

[00:03:07] to our, to our kids, um, that we have to grieve for them and it's not something that should be said.

[00:03:18] So I always say to them that they're still alive, that they're just in another part of the UK and there's always

[00:03:29] that chance. And to make sure that they are feeling that there is another chance further down the line,

[00:03:35] if it's a year two or 10, there's, there's that chance of, uh, a reunion.

[00:03:43] Yeah. So, um, let me, let me take you back to the kind of, um, the, the internal stuff.

[00:03:52] So there was some internal stuff going on for you. Presumably you talked about, you, you talked about fear

[00:03:57] and, and finding, finding the confidence, uh, within yourself to go out and start doing this volunteering.

[00:04:04] When, talk to me a little bit about that and how that happened.

[00:04:08] Well, when the, when the adoption happened back in, in, uh, 2012, um, I dug my head into the sand,

[00:04:16] sand, um, went to work, come home, um, and spent time with my family. Didn't really go out.

[00:04:24] Um, beforehand I was out all the time, friends doing all sorts of activities, including football.

[00:04:32] But after the adoption, I felt like I was going to get judged. So I dug myself into the sand.

[00:04:38] Um, there was no support. Um, up until about 2019, uh, I contacted the, the adoption agency that I'm under.

[00:04:51] Um, they then said that there was a support group, um, that are in my area, which had just come to the area,

[00:05:00] which, um, was a massive shock, bit reluctant because of, um, the background of things and how,

[00:05:11] how, how stuff had gone on in the past. But I was, uh, contacted by PAC, um, Lauren, um, car from PAC.

[00:05:24] And she came, sat down with me, uh, asked about my story, asked about what I wanted.

[00:05:33] And I felt more relaxed. I was asked if I'd come to, uh, birth, uh, parent groups, um, to experience other, uh, birth parents.

[00:05:47] And then COVID struck, which was a massive dent in, in the plans, but I stuck with it.

[00:05:58] Um, spent a lot of time with, um, my wife and my kids that are at home.

[00:06:02] And then in 2022, I got a phone call from PAC asking if I'll go to, um, London to speak in front of our panel, um,

[00:06:16] for, uh, children's education and talk about my experiences of adoption.

[00:06:26] Yeah.

[00:06:26] Yeah. At the House of Lords, um, which was a really big shock.

[00:06:31] Yeah.

[00:06:32] Um, yeah.

[00:06:34] Yeah.

[00:06:35] So from that, um, I, I didn't have a lot of confidence at the time because it would be the first time that I was speaking in front of a small group

[00:06:42] and a lot of people that I don't know.

[00:06:46] Um, I think that day was a really tough day because, um, a chap on the, on the train,

[00:06:55] spilt his coffee all over me.

[00:06:57] So I had a coffee stain on my shirt, which I had to hide.

[00:07:02] And then I sat in there, spoke about my experiences to have, um, one of the MPs ask me to explain a little bit more to him afterwards,

[00:07:15] which I did, which then gave me a little bit more enthusiasm to open up about my experiences.

[00:07:22] And then from that, 2022, I did a recording for National Adoption Week, um, with PAC.

[00:07:32] And I'm here today after doing quite a lot of other things as well, including the panel meeting in Liverpool on the 19th.

[00:07:43] Yeah.

[00:07:44] So when you've, you've talked about being, you know, uh, out, out and about and then kind of, uh, an outgoing sort of guy and then kind of going,

[00:07:55] going within after the, after this, uh, adoption and then coming back out of the other side.

[00:08:02] Yeah.

[00:08:02] Yeah.

[00:08:03] So what, what's, where's that strength and courage come from?

[00:08:11] Um, feeling not alone.

[00:08:17] That I'm not the only person out there that has gone through it.

[00:08:22] Um, going seven years without any support or anybody talking to me regarding it, um, was a major impact in me, um, staying at home all the time.

[00:08:39] It was tough.

[00:08:41] It was very tough.

[00:08:43] And getting in contact, well, PAC getting in contact with me, um, really helped me.

[00:08:52] Um, they give me a sign of, I'm not the only one.

[00:08:58] There is more out there that I can relate to.

[00:09:06] And that's what, um, that's what I did.

[00:09:10] I was a bit skeptical at first going to the groups, um, still took me a lot of time to go to them.

[00:09:16] But once I did, um, my confidence has just grown and grown and grown.

[00:09:23] And I sit there with other birth parents, um, which started off as birth mums.

[00:09:30] Um, so I was, I was the only one out sat there and I'm thinking to myself, I'll just sit here nice and quietly and listen to everybody's stories.

[00:09:38] If they ask me a question, they ask me a question, I'll answer it.

[00:09:42] And that's what I, I like to do.

[00:09:45] I listen to people's stories and then when they ask me things, I'll, I'll let them know.

[00:09:53] Um, and over the, the last year or so, we've had five or six more birth dads join the groups.

[00:10:02] Um, and I do talk to one of the birth dads out of the group who struggles to come to the group.

[00:10:09] Um, so yeah, it's, it's given me the, the confidence to help and support other people as well.

[00:10:15] Yeah.

[00:10:17] So what do you think is going on for this, this, this guy that, um, is staying out, out of the group?

[00:10:25] It's more to the point of his anxiety.

[00:10:32] Um, he wants to come and talk and use the group as, um, a support, um, like a counselling session,

[00:10:43] which is perfectly fine with what we do.

[00:10:46] Uh, we all have our good say about what, what's on our minds, what's causing us problems.

[00:10:53] Um, but honestly, I think it's the arts and crafts that he doesn't like.

[00:10:58] So sometimes you don't, you don't like doing arts and crafts.

[00:11:02] I'll, I'll have a bit of a dabble at it.

[00:11:05] Um, but sometimes I just won't, I won't get involved.

[00:11:09] I'll, I'll be an ear to someone and let them talk to me and, um, have a conversation.

[00:11:16] And that's all it takes sometimes.

[00:11:18] But these, these arts and crafts or these activities that we do is something that your mind's concentrating on,

[00:11:28] but you're also able to talk about what's going on while doing what you're doing.

[00:11:34] Um, and I think that's just something that he needs to get something to reflect on.

[00:11:41] So something that's interesting him, um, down the lines of his hobbies that he can do.

[00:11:50] Um, and that's what we've been doing outside, just having a bit of a chat about, um,

[00:11:57] about his experiences and I've helped him out with his letterbox and stuff.

[00:12:02] So cool.

[00:12:03] So the, uh, for people outside the UK letterbox is the system that we have here in the UK,

[00:12:09] or maybe it's just England.

[00:12:11] I'm not sure.

[00:12:11] It's about, um, it's, it's about a communication, a letterbox system between, um, between birth

[00:12:18] parents and, and, uh, and kids, uh, run, run through an intermediary.

[00:12:24] So it's a letterbox service.

[00:12:25] They're not in direct contact with each other.

[00:12:27] Um, the other thing I just, uh, uh, add into, um, uh, and as mentioned this name, uh,

[00:12:34] back UK a couple of times, they were actually the ones that helped me get, uh, get my adoption

[00:12:40] records.

[00:12:41] So that's, they, they dug out my, my file from where it was dusty and stuck in wherever it

[00:12:48] was.

[00:12:48] Uh, uh, and that was a transformational for, for me in terms of understanding the background

[00:12:53] of my adoption and, uh, reading letters from my birth mum and, uh, that sort of stuff.

[00:12:58] And the letters from my parents back and forth.

[00:13:00] Yeah.

[00:13:00] So, um, uh, UK, uh, big shout out to them.

[00:13:05] And if you're in the UK, so they're, they're a big post-adoption that they're one of our

[00:13:11] biggest post-adoption resources for people here in, uh, in, yeah, I'm saying England,

[00:13:17] I'm saying England.

[00:13:18] Leeds.

[00:13:19] Sorry?

[00:13:20] In Leeds.

[00:13:21] In Leeds.

[00:13:21] Yeah.

[00:13:22] Yeah.

[00:13:22] In Leeds.

[00:13:23] All right.

[00:13:24] I thought they had maybe an office in the Northwest as well.

[00:13:26] No, it's all done out of Leeds, isn't it?

[00:13:28] Yeah.

[00:13:28] They've got an office in Leeds and an office in London.

[00:13:30] All right.

[00:13:31] Okay.

[00:13:31] Yeah.

[00:13:32] It's England, it's England focused rather than Scotland and North Ireland as well.

[00:13:36] Yeah.

[00:13:36] Um, so for you then, um, driving is, seems to be about, uh, confidence and, uh, being,

[00:13:47] uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and sharing your

[00:13:51] story and having more, uh, being, being a bit more outgoing.

[00:13:58] And then somewhere along the way, you've, you've, you've figured that really you want to, you want

[00:14:03] to give back and you want to, you've learned some stuff and you've had, there's been a transition,

[00:14:09] uh, in your life and you want to help the, sort of, sort of, got, uh, light the way for

[00:14:14] other people.

[00:14:15] Right.

[00:14:15] So, um, this is, this is great.

[00:14:20] Yeah.

[00:14:21] This is great.

[00:14:22] Um, so, uh, when we, when we spoke, uh, when you spoke at the, the, the CVA conference in

[00:14:31] Liverpool, you talked about some of the, uh, some of the challenges that you've, that you've

[00:14:36] had and you continue to have in terms of, uh, in terms of communication with your, um, with

[00:14:44] your birth daughter. Can you share a little bit about that?

[00:14:48] Yeah. Um, as I've explained, um, about Letterboxd, um, I have Letterboxd twice a year and that's

[00:15:00] been since 2012. The adopters were happy to meet me, um, when, uh, the adoption was, uh,

[00:15:13] placed, which was something that I wanted to do for the reasons of, um, I wanted the adopters

[00:15:20] to see me who I am and also to let them know that, um, my, my daughter, my birth daughter

[00:15:30] is, uh, got sibling, um, a younger brother. Um, from that I've had the Letterboxd twice a

[00:15:42] year and I think over the, over the last 12 years I've, I've missed two Letterboxd's. Um,

[00:15:55] one because of my, my health because I, I suffered a heart attack and the second one because my son

[00:16:03] was, um, rushed into surgery for life, life saving, um, operation, um, for four different things, which,

[00:16:15] um, a diaphragmatic hernia, congestion, um, bowel loops and his appendix, um, which lasted over seven

[00:16:26] hours. So I couldn't find the words to write back to, to the letter. I, um, pretty much replied back

[00:16:34] saying I can't write a letter this time around, please accept my apologies and explained that I'll

[00:16:42] explain everything in the, in the next letter. Um, it returned to two, two times a year, um,

[00:16:53] back and forth up until 2023 where I only received one letter. I didn't, I didn't get angry about it

[00:17:04] because obviously I've, I've missed myself. Um, and then I decided that I'd like to look at reviews,

[00:17:15] um, with having two children at home and having a child at the time of the adoption as well.

[00:17:22] Um, um, shows that I'm not a risk and contact should have been looked at earlier on in, in the process of,

[00:17:33] uh, um, the adoption that a review should be looked into to bring contact forward. Um, but I kept on

[00:17:43] getting told that it's not in the contract and, um, um, I've also recently had, um, information that

[00:17:53] the adopters aren't ready, um, which is a shame, but I do understand as well because my daughter's,

[00:18:00] uh, going to be sitting her GCSEs, um, very soon. So it's understandable. Um,

[00:18:08] um, but I think the main thing for me is a bond between myself and the adopters because when the

[00:18:22] time of a reunion comes, if there's not a bond there between me and them, um, it could cause quite

[00:18:31] a lot of awkwardness where if we've got a bit more of a friendship than, uh, um, as I would say pen pal,

[00:18:42] um, cause that's, that's how a letterbox comes across is that you're pen pal, you're right to each

[00:18:47] other. Um, and it's been knocked back at the moment, but I'm just taking it as it, as it comes. I'm not

[00:18:57] going to force it. Um, but yeah, it's, it's been challenging because it's my kids that are living

[00:19:07] at home that I'm worried about as well because, um, they're seeing photographs of my birth daughter

[00:19:15] as a three year old while two and a half come to three years old and they're not seeing any other

[00:19:23] pictures other than that. And they're growing up, which she is not. Um, so explaining everything to

[00:19:29] them at the first instance was my main priority. And that's what is something that working with the

[00:19:37] adopters, um, I was hoping that it might ease not just my side, but also their side.

[00:19:46] Um, with, uh, the transition of what, of that, the union, uh, the reunion, should I say.

[00:19:57] Are they, uh, this, these pictures, um, are they saying that that's not in the contract? Is that,

[00:20:03] is that part of the challenge as well?

[00:20:05] Yeah, there's no, the only thing that's in, in the contract that, um, I came out of court with is I

[00:20:11] get letterbox twice a year. There's no, there's no form of a review. There's no pictures, which was

[00:20:19] something that I asked, um, on a few occasions, if I could have a picture, not to keep up to go into,

[00:20:29] um, the offices anywhere, uh, needed to go and view these. I was quite happy to hand my mobile phone

[00:20:36] over any devices that could technically take a photograph and sit there with my family and look

[00:20:43] at a photograph of my daughter, uh, as, as she is. So I want to do everything by the book. Um, I don't

[00:20:51] want to, don't want to go behind anybody's back or anything. Um, these options could be

[00:21:00] given, um, under the circumstances of siblings being at home, um, at the time of, of the adoption,

[00:21:09] but it just was never, well, my son at the time was never thought about.

[00:21:14] Yeah. Uh, so here in England, uh, listeners, there's some stuff going on. Um, well, first off,

[00:21:23] you mentioned GCSEs, your daughter doing GCSEs. So GCSEs are public exams that kids take when they're

[00:21:28] about 16 and it's quite a, it's quite a stressful time for, for them and for the schools. Um, so that's

[00:21:36] why Andy's, uh, um, talking about it is like, like he is, uh, and the other thing that's happening

[00:21:44] is there's some change. Um, there's some change on the way in terms of the communication between,

[00:21:52] um, between birth parents and, uh, and, uh, adopted kids. And, uh, my understanding is that

[00:21:59] there's quite a lot of detail on that that hasn't yet been sorted, sorted out. So hopefully

[00:22:06] it will, things will open up slightly and, and, and, and ease to allow, um, more of, um, yeah,

[00:22:16] more than just pen pal stuff or, but there's, there's a lot of, there's two very opposing sides in this,

[00:22:26] right? Yeah. Yeah. You've got the, you've got the birth parents who are wanting to have more

[00:22:34] contact with, um, with their birth child and then you've got the, the side of the adopters and,

[00:22:43] um, the local authorities who have to take the, um, risk factors and, um, taking the,

[00:22:58] the possibility of any scares that could happen. Um, and it's got to be done case by case

[00:23:09] and, uh, something that has got to be well thought about.

[00:23:14] Yeah. And, and bureaucracies air on caution, don't they?

[00:23:21] Yeah.

[00:23:22] Public sector, any, any large, any organization, large or public sector or private sector as,

[00:23:27] as on caution because it doesn't worry. Um, yeah. And they don't want to be,

[00:23:32] they don't want to be caught out. And so they will, uh, the individuals will ask for more and more.

[00:23:39] Yeah. Uh, guide guidelines and, and, uh, people. Yeah. And it, it just ends up, uh,

[00:23:48] increasingly frustrating, I think for, yeah, which is the reason why I think I review, uh, into,

[00:23:56] um, the birth parents, um, a few years down after the adoption to see how they're getting on. Um,

[00:24:06] which can be assessed by, um, like, uh, an organization like, uh, PAC UK, um,

[00:24:16] who could then pass this information over to the, um, the adoption agency to look at moving contact

[00:24:25] forward. Um, but it all does span down to, um, how willing adopters are willing to be. Um, and

[00:24:38] hopefully, yeah, more decide that they would like to involve birth parents.

[00:24:46] And, and, and they're likely to be scared.

[00:24:50] Very scared. Yeah. Well, they're going to be as scared as what we're scared because as much as we

[00:24:56] would like to have more contact with our, our birth children, it's more to the point of,

[00:25:02] we don't want to upset the adopters and we'd certainly don't want to upset our, uh, our birth

[00:25:08] children. So it's more like a way to help both sides.

[00:25:17] So everybody's scared really.

[00:25:19] Yeah, we are. We're all scared.

[00:25:21] The, the, the, the birth parents, the adopters and, uh, the organizations in the middle, there's a,

[00:25:27] there's fear and insecurity.

[00:25:29] Uh, yeah.

[00:25:30] In this one.

[00:25:31] Well, that's, that's the thing. And I think if, if it starts off as letterbox and then you have a

[00:25:37] review and then, um, the review then decides that you can, you can meet the adopters once a year on

[00:25:47] top of your two letterboxes face to face. So have a good chat, um, catch up about everything that's

[00:25:54] going on. Um, it, it would really help because what you can say to people is completely different

[00:26:03] to what you say in a letter and in a letter it can come across so many different ways. Um,

[00:26:10] and the one that I would like to try and get over to my adopters at this moment in time is,

[00:26:17] um, my daughter is being assessed for ADHD. Um, I've been told that I'm possible ADHD.

[00:26:31] So something that I've not thought about and try not think about now, but does it show that my

[00:26:42] birth daughter could possibly have ADHD as well?

[00:26:46] Um, and going off some of the letters that I received, um, the constant change in, um,

[00:26:58] interests. Um, what was it she was interested in March this year? She's no longer interested in

[00:27:04] now and she's moved on to so many different things. Um, and being told by the adopters that,

[00:27:12] um, she doesn't stay interested in something for too long. So that sort of tells me,

[00:27:24] is there something there herself? Um, so I know that I'm, I'm that way. I'm, I'm interested in

[00:27:33] something and then not interested in it. The only thing that I've been interested in and

[00:27:37] stay interested in is football. Um, because I love to play football and I love to watch football.

[00:27:44] Um, but other, other things I'm in and out of being interested in it. I sometimes go back to it,

[00:27:51] but not all the time. Yeah. Yeah. So how do you feel about what's going on?

[00:28:01] Um, um, distraught because, um, as a birth parent, you think to yourself,

[00:28:15] we are just like anybody else. We are the, we, we're as, as human as anybody else on, on the planet.

[00:28:26] Um, and we, we sometimes do feel like we are getting treated a little bit differently to what

[00:28:33] others do. Um, and as most people say, we, we, we are basically labeled, um, and it's not always the case.

[00:28:46] Um, not every adoption is the same. There's so many different types of reasons for the adoption.

[00:28:55] And I think adopters looking at adoption, um, I think it's one of them that

[00:29:08] take in the consideration of the birth parents and what they're going through at the time.

[00:29:14] Um, and that's for the local authority as well, because obviously we don't get support

[00:29:19] that we need during these processes. Um, so yeah, it's, it's really difficult, um, to, to take on board,

[00:29:30] but I have to do it, um, for the benefit of my birth daughter.

[00:29:35] Yeah. Yeah. And for your kids?

[00:29:40] Yeah. My kids as well. They can't see me feeling upset, um, not wanting to do anything. Um,

[00:29:51] it's showing them that I'm more of a person that I was at the time of the adoption and

[00:30:02] my kids love me for who I am. And they've asked me never to change. And they, they talk about what I do.

[00:30:10] Um, um, with PAC, uh, with everybody that they speak to. And if I'm away on a, um,

[00:30:19] for a conference, they tell people where I am and that's what I like.

[00:30:25] Yeah. Yeah. They're proud of you.

[00:30:31] They are. Well, they, well, they say they're proud. I don't know.

[00:30:34] I don't know if they quite understand it, but no, they, they are proud. They, they are happy to talk about what I do.

[00:30:40] And they, they talk freely about, um, their adopted sister. Um, my son is,

[00:30:50] amazing when it comes to that, uh, because people go, oh, you, you've just got a, a younger sister.

[00:30:56] Have you? And he goes, no, I've got an older sister, but she's adopted.

[00:31:00] So he'll always talk about, he'll never, he never, um, forgets about making sure people know that she's,

[00:31:10] she's around.

[00:31:11] Yeah. Maybe the adults can learn something from the kids on this one, right?

[00:31:16] Yeah, possible. You never know.

[00:31:19] Yeah. You never know. The, uh, my daughter has just gone through counseling, um, because she is

[00:31:28] really wanting to have contact with a, a, a big sister as, as girls do. They want a bigger sister to,

[00:31:36] um, share makeup with, share clothes with half the time. And she wants contact with her. And

[00:31:44] she's just had some counseling regarding that. And, um, um, she's wrote her a letter that's

[00:31:53] six or seven pages long.

[00:31:57] And I didn't think, um, as my daughter's being a diagnosed, uh, well, being assessed for ADHD,

[00:32:08] I didn't think she would be able to sit there and do that. But because she was in a counseling session

[00:32:13] where the, the, the concentration was on her, she was able to do that. Yeah.

[00:32:18] Um, but yeah, I think, I think.

[00:32:21] Is that good? Is that going to be able, are you going to be able to include that in the letterbox?

[00:32:26] I'm hoping so. And that's something that I'm going to be, um, what I'm asking about with the review as

[00:32:32] well is that my youngest daughter is able to contact her adopted sister. So, um, it's,

[00:32:42] it is one of them. I have, I have stated that I don't want it to happen now after the, um,

[00:32:50] after schools ended in, in July, I reckon once all exams are finished, um, then that's a possibility

[00:32:58] of that starting, but, um, it's all down to the adopters, um, if they agreed to it or not.

[00:33:05] Yeah. But I think, I think listening to, um, not just the adoptee, uh, like children or adopteens

[00:33:17] or adopted adults, um, children, siblings, I think as well, it can be a very powerful subject as well.

[00:33:27] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I know that I've got two half brothers and I could, I, if I wanted to, I could,

[00:33:34] I could get in touch with them. It would be a roundabout way. Yeah. Um, because I've been, uh,

[00:33:45] uh, told to, I spoke to my, I spoke to my birth dad completely out of, I rang him completely out of the

[00:33:54] blue, um, about a year ago. And he, he didn't want to, he didn't want to, he didn't want to talk.

[00:34:02] I didn't handle, I didn't do it. I've said, I didn't handle it very well. Um, I didn't,

[00:34:06] well, I didn't approach it very well in the first place, just ringing him out in the blue. Um, but,

[00:34:10] uh, I, I, I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure that even if I'd done it in a different way, he would still,

[00:34:17] uh, he would still, uh, blank me because he, because of the stuff that went on for him, you know,

[00:34:26] I found out that he was in and out of care because his, his mum had died when he was young.

[00:34:40] Uh, and his, his dad was away, uh, abroad on business and couldn't, and couldn't look after the

[00:34:50] kids and there was no other family that would look after his, my birth dad and his two siblings.

[00:34:57] So, you know, he'd had a, and, and, and a traumatic start to life as well, losing his mum when he was just

[00:35:06] young. And, and, and then, uh, and then, uh, whatever it was, whether it was an orphanage or foster

[00:35:11] care, we don't, I don't know quite what was going on, but yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't stable. So yeah, he's, um,

[00:35:22] yeah. And he's not told, he's clearly not told his, um, his wife. No, he said, that's why he said,

[00:35:32] don't, don't, he said, don't ring this number again. He said, don't ring, not, not, don't ring this

[00:35:38] number again. Cause obviously it's scared that I'm going to ring back and tell his wife, and then he's

[00:35:42] going to get found out and it's going to blow up. So I'm staying well away. Yeah. It's, it's,

[00:35:47] it's a difficult situation and someone who's held it in for so long, um, and not spoken about it.

[00:35:58] And at that time as well, probably not being told, um, that you'll get the chance to reunite in the future.

[00:36:10] Yeah. He, he signed, he signed his rights on a little piece of paper.

[00:36:15] That's what I mean. And having that, not being able to see him again and moving,

[00:36:24] moving on, moving forward and it's 57, 50 odd years ago, you know, different, different times.

[00:36:32] Yeah. Very different times. And it's, it's a difficult thing to, to have to endure, but

[00:36:40] we would never know if we don't try.

[00:36:43] Yeah. I saw it, I saw it as an experiment, right? And the fact that he didn't,

[00:36:52] when he told me not to call again, the fact that that didn't knock me sideways,

[00:36:59] I see as a, uh, as a sign of my progression or whatever, my, you know, my, my healing,

[00:37:09] my strength or whatever. Yeah. It didn't, it didn't, uh, trigger me as they say in, in today's patterns.

[00:37:21] Well, that talking about triggers, I've, I don't, I can't say that I've got any triggers.

[00:37:31] Um, I don't know. I used to have a lot of triggers every time I walked out, um,

[00:37:36] out the house, I had a lot of triggers, um, which is the reason why I stayed at home, but

[00:37:43] never had any triggers over the last four years. I've just been able to get on with things.

[00:37:52] I know that what I'm doing, um, keeping my letterbox up to date is showing that I'm here,

[00:38:03] I'm still here and I'm not going anywhere. Um, yeah, it's...

[00:38:08] So what's, what's changed for you, Andy?

[00:38:13] My, my, my two kids at home, um, nobody wants to see a parent, um, sitting around doing nothing,

[00:38:23] going to work, coming home, doing nothing, going to work, coming home, and then on,

[00:38:27] on your days off, not going anywhere. Um, my, my wife wanted them to see the person who I was

[00:38:41] when we first met. Um, even though we didn't get together at the time, um, it was a few years

[00:38:51] later she wanted them to see who I really was. Um, and for me it took me seven years, um, to,

[00:39:02] to start showing that. And I'm, I'm glad I have because they're going out, they're talking about

[00:39:10] everything that I do and... Yeah.

[00:39:14] And they, they support me. Yeah.

[00:39:17] As much as it, I support them.

[00:39:21] It's beautiful, man. Beautiful. So,

[00:39:28] what, what, um,

[00:39:31] is there anything that I've asked, I've not asked you about that you, that you want to share?

[00:39:36] I think when it, when it comes down to birth parents, um, obviously most of the, most of the time

[00:39:57] there's both parents around and I feel something that's been playing on my mind now for

[00:40:11] nearly two years, um, is that we're not always going to be around and I've suffered health scares.

[00:40:25] Um, I, I did nearly pass away in 2019 after kidney failure.

[00:40:34] Um, wow.

[00:40:36] But I'm, I'm more to the point of when a parent is no longer here.

[00:40:48] Um, because at the end of the day, even though I've moved on and I've had children with my,

[00:40:57] my now wife, um, there's still feelings there for the birth parent, the birth mother.

[00:41:08] Um, because she's obviously my, my daughter's mum and you want both parents to be there at the time of

[00:41:17] any possible reunions. And if that's not always the case, then I reviewed to bring

[00:41:31] like contact forward when there's only one birth parent alive should be considered.

[00:41:40] Right.

[00:41:42] Because there's going to be so many people out there, including myself, that has to explain to

[00:41:55] your child, your birth child, the reasons, and that's all coming back on us as well.

[00:42:06] Um, so yeah, I think I like to take into consideration regarding that.

[00:42:14] Um, with, with you saying that your birth, birth dad's mum passed away when he was young,

[00:42:21] it, it made me think that, yeah, actually I need to say this because at the end of the day,

[00:42:31] the support is needed. Um, from both sides. And I don't know how the adopters would take

[00:42:41] the information regarding the passing of a birth parent. Um,

[00:42:48] or even if they tell a child that a birth parent has passed away or not, I really don't know. And

[00:42:55] I don't want to divulge into that because it's, it's a complicated situation. So yeah, it's, it's one of them.

[00:43:04] Um, as soon as I found out, I made that call to make sure that the adoption agency knew all about it,

[00:43:12] which they did. Um, but it's one of them.

[00:43:21] Yeah. Cool. So I'm going to put a link to your LinkedIn in, in, in the, in the show notes,

[00:43:28] if that, that's all right with you and people.

[00:43:30] Yeah, that's fine by me.

[00:43:31] I'm sure you'd be pleased to hear from people. Um, um, we never know whether you're going to get a

[00:43:37] response or not. So thanks a lot. And, and, and, and, and, uh, it's been great to, to, to talk to you

[00:43:49] and get to know you a bit better than I did, uh, with the, over the panel in Liverpool.

[00:43:53] Yeah. It was a very, uh, busy day that day.

[00:43:56] It was a busy day.

[00:43:57] Very busy day.

[00:43:58] And it's good response though, right?

[00:44:01] Very good response. And still getting responses now.

[00:44:05] I'm doing research with, um, Sheffield University and, um, going to be working with, uh, Bernard

[00:44:13] I was down in, um, in Kent. So yeah.

[00:44:18] Brilliant.

[00:44:19] Yeah.

[00:44:21] Very informative that day was.

[00:44:23] Yeah. Good on you.

[00:44:24] Thanks a lot.

[00:44:25] Thank you very much for having me.

[00:44:26] Yeah. You're welcome, mate. You're welcome.

[00:44:27] Thanks listeners. And, uh, hope you enjoyed something a little bit different, uh, for this, uh,

[00:44:32] from this episode. We'll speak to you again very soon.

[00:44:34] Take care. Bye bye.