The Dreams Beyond Dreams Chris Tonniges

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Chris, Chris Tonniges, looking forward to our conversation today. Greetings. Yeah, thanks Simon. So, thriving. What does thriving mean to you Chris? Yeah, so a little bit of backstory on my personal story, maybe that will help describe what I feel is thriving.

[00:00:31] You know, my wife and I struggled with infertility like a lot of couples do across the globe. And decided that adoption was one way for us to be able to do that. And so, you know, when you say what is thriving, it's a lot of it is living exactly your life in the way that you want to live it.

[00:00:54] And have the ability to not only sort of achieve whatever dreams that you have, but also have a realization that there are dreams beyond those dreams that can be accomplished as time just sort of goes on and progresses. So, that journey for us started 22 years ago, 23 years ago now almost. And I've got three wonderful kids because of adoption. Yeah.

[00:01:23] And now you've, because you were in the banking sector then right? Yeah. And now you lead a non-profit in Omaha, Nebraska, yeah? Correct. So, I was coming out of college, didn't like a lot of people didn't know what I wanted to do. So, I ended up in banking, was a banker for 23 years and was on the board of Lutheran Family Services for about eight and a half years prior to the position of CEO opening up.

[00:01:48] And, obviously, I dedicated a lot of time and energy and volunteer hours and all the things that people do when they feel connected to a non-profit agency like Lutheran Family Services.

[00:01:59] But when the CEO position opened up, it sort of had a different pull on the heartstrings, so to speak, in regards to me really wanting to see this agency fulfill what I believe is its long-term mission, which is just helping individuals and families, to your point earlier, thrive. Is, you know, providing them the things that they need in order to make sure that they can and do fulfill their lifelong goals and dreams.

[00:02:27] Yeah. So, the move into the non-profit, that was the dream beyond the dream, was it? Right, it was. Like, you didn't see it coming? Yeah, it was never even on my radar, right? It was one of those. I was actually even on the selection committee, Simon. I was on the selection committee to find the new CEO and we sat in a meeting and we said, well, here are the characteristics of the type of individual that we want and we think would be successful in this sort of role. And I got a call from our board chair about a week and a half later on a Saturday morning.

[00:02:57] And I was the finance committee chair and no finance committee chair gets a phone call on a Saturday morning from the board president unless we miss payroll or something. And so, I was a little nervous to even pick up the phone and he said, no, the reason I'm calling is I think what we did is I think we described somebody with your skill set and your mindset as what we need in the next role. And I said, that's nuts, right? I'm a banker. I'm 23 years in the business now. I'm sort of committed.

[00:03:25] And he said, no, I really think you should take some time to discern and really think about it. And so, it did. It took me about 48 hours to really, what does this mean for me? What does it mean for my family? What is it that I think I can bring to the agency from the perspective of all of my life experiences that I've had? And where is the agency and how that can help me? And to your point exactly, it was never even on my radar.

[00:03:54] It was the dream beyond the dream, right? And the ability for me to make a difference in not only those that we serve across the state, but also those people that we employ. And it's had a huge impact on my life. I mean, it's a different level of stress and a different level of fulfillment than I ever expected. Yeah. So, is openness one of the things for you then?

[00:04:22] When the dream beyond the dream, you know, it came onto your radar, right? There was an openness to that, to dive into that, to consider it, right? Yeah, there was. It was sort of that, I guess, call it divine intervention, aha moment. I mean, there's a thousand sayings for the way that, you know, these sorts of things sort of pop up.

[00:04:50] And, you know, it was a unique situation in my life. I was actually in the middle of beginning a transition from one employer to potentially another employer, or at least looking to change who my employer was. And, you know, just sort of created an opportunity to rethink and readjust and hit the, in essence, sort of restart button on what I thought success meant for me personally. Yeah.

[00:05:19] People use this word mindset. And have you heard of the, there's quite a well-known book about the growth mindset by an American, Carol Dweck, I think she's called. I think she was a teacher or in education. And the word set to me, I always think of concrete, right? Concrete is set and it's rigid. And to me, that's the opposite.

[00:05:47] That's the very opposite of openness. I'm a fan, I'm more of a fan of mind fluid. Yeah. I don't have, I don't have Carol Dweck's reach, right? So I don't know whether mind fluid is really ever going to, you know. But that's what I'm trying to bring. Yeah. That's what I'm trying to bring into the adoption space, a bit more mind fluidity.

[00:06:15] Because that, it's in those moments that, whether they're divine moments, you know, they are hormones. That's when the change happens. And if we're set in our ways, right? We have these things in America and I'm sure you don't have, sorry, we have these things in the UK. I'm sure you don't have them in the States. They're called grumpy old men. Have you come across this, right? And the older they get, the grumpier they get. And I'm thinking, I'm 58.

[00:06:46] I don't want to be one of those. Yeah. Right. But then I see some of the stuff that I do and I think that's a bit of routine, you know. So what's your take on those aha moments, those moments that change our worlds? Yeah.

[00:07:09] I think, you know, I can't remember what the exact phrase is, but it's, you know, success is oftentimes defined by both opportunity and a willingness to take that opportunity. Right. And I'm saying that completely wrong, Simon, but, you know, it's, we get presented these little random sets of opportunities as life presents itself to us.

[00:07:37] And I think that willingness to just even take a step back and think about it and learn. I mean, I think of my own adoption story with my three kids and the fact that had we not been willing and open in each one of those moments that those opportunities presented itself, my life looks totally different today. And in each one of those stories is very different.

[00:08:05] And two of those were situations where had we not been open and to your point about, you know, mindset being this real structure. And when I think of set, the word set, it is, it's a structure, right? It's a structure or a set of rules.

[00:08:22] Whereas the ability to be open about where it is you are in life and where it is you think you're going is freeing in a lot of ways because it gives you the opportunity to maybe see things or see opportunities that wouldn't otherwise normally present themselves. Yeah. Yeah. My mum and dad adopted, came to adoption through infertility, infertility too.

[00:08:48] So some of this resonates for me, but obviously I'm a lot older than your kids. What have been the most insightful or the most important insightful moments for you? I think it's, it's, it's, it's twofold.

[00:09:13] One is that we continue, even after 133 years of existence from an agency perspective, continue to make a huge change and difference in people's lives every single day. And for me to even just be a small part of that is, is amazingly impactful on myself. It provides perspective.

[00:09:39] It provides hope that, you know, that even amongst all of the chaos that seemingly the world throws at us every single day anymore, that there are sort of these moments of peace and sort of belonging that are there in and amongst us if we just take the time to look for them. Um, so I think that's one for sure.

[00:10:04] I think the other one too is, is that, um, is that, uh, you know, this isn't the end for me either. Right. I, I think I've realized that, um, you know, I'm 49 years old, so I'm embarking on the big five O year, um, this year.

[00:10:24] And so, um, I realized that, um, even though I've been in this role for three and a half years, um, there's so much more that we can do here at this agency, but there's so much more that I can do.

[00:10:36] That's even beyond this agency, um, to drive impact and change and, um, that fluidity of mindset that you talked about in regards to people opening themselves up to, uh, not only changing themselves, but also the opportunity to, to change not only their lives, but also other people's lives as well. Um, and so I think, um, and a lot of people just need a little nudge, right?

[00:11:02] I mean, there's a lot of folks that, um, are thinking about, um, you know, significant life changes and they just need that little nudge or that little, hey, it's not as scary on the other side of the, the, the bridge here. Um, and you know, you, you will get through this and it'll be, um, a good thing. We, we, we're a mental and behavioral health agency that serves 13,000 people a year. Most of them are walking through our doors oftentimes in, in one of the worst days of their life.

[00:11:32] Um, and then to see the success stories over time, uh, with those folks on top of the adoption stories, on top of, um, the family reunification stories and on top of the refugee resettlement work that we do. It's just, it's bucket filling, uh, to say the least. Yeah. What, what are the most, um, the biggest insights that you've had about yourself since becoming a dad 22, 23 years ago?

[00:12:02] Yeah. Um, I think that I have the capacity, more capacity as a human being than what I gave myself credit for. Um, you know, I think in our early twenties we're somewhat bulletproof. Um, but we also feel like we have sort of smaller potential impact.

[00:12:20] And I think, um, you know, the, the gift of adoption opens your eyes to a world that's beyond sort of your own sort of microcosm of, um, life as it sits, um, in your early twenties. Um, or mid twenties.

[00:12:36] Um, I think the, the other part of that too, is it, it, um, you know, adoption, um, made me far more compassionate for folks because of the, just the sheer nature of the, the, the way that, um, our adoptions were all open adoptions. Um, and each one of those situations was very different. And so it forced us to sort of, you know, rethink, um, social norms. It forced us to rethink of, um, what we think success looks like.

[00:13:04] It forced us to rethink, um, you know, what a family looks like. Um, I grew up in a fairly traditional family and central Nebraska and rural central Nebraska. And, uh, you know, now all of a sudden I had, you know, parents and birth parents and birth grandparents and birth aunt and uncles. And, um, you know, all these folks that are, are now part of, uh, what we call our, our, our, our wonderful family.

[00:13:28] And so it just changes the way that you sort of look at things and, and allows you to be a lot more vulnerable because you need to be, because you've got more people in your life. Um, it, when we talked about openness, it, it requires us to be more open with what's going on with us, requires us to be more open with what's going on with our kids. Um, and, um, you know, ultimately allows us, I think, to have, uh, more fulfilling relationships with folks. Yeah. What do you mean by capacity, Chris? You mentioned capacity.

[00:13:59] I, you know, I, I, you know, we, I think we always get time bound to your, back to your mindset. That's, that's, I'm going to start using mind fluidity, Simon. I'm going to sort of take that and run with it a little bit, if you don't mind. There's no, no, no, no, no trademark on that or anything. No trademark, yes. Okay.

[00:14:18] Um, but I, I think, um, you know, we, we think of, you know, I think back in my twenties and I always sort of thought about, okay, there's a certain number of hours in a day and I've got sort of a max amount of energy that I want to put towards things. And, um, you know, I sort of had this arbitrary cap on what my personal impact could be not only on, um, my family's life and in my kid's life, but also, uh, society in general.

[00:14:44] And I think, um, you know, what adoption sort of forced me to realize is, is that the world is much bigger than sort of our just general small, um, little family unit. Um, and that there are, it opened my eyes to some things that, you know, quite frankly, I'd not been, I'd been exposed to, but not in a sort of a meaningful way.

[00:15:07] Um, and it, it showed me that there, I have the personal capacity to do and, and, uh, not only absorb more information, but also take that information and do more with it. Um, that benefits, um, society in general. Yeah. When I think of capacity, um,

[00:15:27] Um, I think of one of the central learnings that I've had interviewing adoptive parents and especially adoptive parents who are also adoption professionals. Um, is that it's about them growing their capacity, not to take their kids trauma personally. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a depersonalization of it.

[00:15:53] And, and, and, and that sounds completely nuts because what's more personal. Right. Than your kids. Right. But, but not, not, not taking, uh, not taking it personally. Um, did you, did you adopt through, do Lutheran primary services? Yes. All three of them are with this agency. Yeah. So that, that, that was, I was thinking, do you remember that guy? You might be too young. Do you remember, uh, Victor Kayan?

[00:16:22] Do you remember that guy? I don't remember that name. So, uh, yeah, it, it was in the seventies. Uh, and so he was this American guy that used to, uh, that, that, uh, liked his Remington razor so much that he bought the company. Right. Right. So I'm thinking, like, you, you enjoyed, uh, Lutheran family services that you ended up running the nonprofits. Right. Yeah. Something on those lines. Yeah.

[00:16:50] Um, uh, what, what did you, what did you learn through the, uh, through the, the, the kind of like the pre-adoption training, that, that training process? And, um, have you changed what, or have you suggested changes on the basis of your lived experience? Yeah.

[00:17:13] So I think what, um, you know, the whole pre-adoption process really is centered around, um, you know, not only educating you on what does adoption look like and how does it feel, but it really is. It's, it's a moment of self-reflection to say, what am I comfortable with as a parent? Um, am I comfortable with a child with special needs? Am I comfortable with a multiracial child?

[00:17:38] Am I comfortable with, um, you know, a fully open adoption with, um, you know, birth parents that are wanting to, to take a role in their, in their child's life? Um, am I comfortable with a closed adoption? Um, and so it is, it's a, that pre-phase of the adoption really is, and to me, that's the, the beauty of that is it is, it helps you really define who you want to be as a parent through this process.

[00:18:06] And I think, um, to your point about not taking their child's, not taking their child's trauma personally, the piece that I've learned most in the more, more that we're in the, in the work that we're trying to do now is really providing for, um, post-adoptive services in a way that are sort of leaning into that same level of work.

[00:18:30] Um, so, um, you know, have I, now that my, now that my child is five, have I sort of changed the way that my view or outlook on relationships is in really working with parents on sort of the longer term vision of what, again, that's kind of constant self-reflection in regards to what they're comfortable with.

[00:18:52] So we're, um, we're in the, in the beginning phase, not really in the beginning phase, we're kind of in the, in the middle phases of putting together that type of programming, um, because it's much needed. It's, there's, um, not a whole lot of resources here locally or in the region for folks other than sort of Facebook, um, groups. Um, but there really isn't that much of a, um, an, an option for, um, adoptive parents to get together and really talk through what is, what does this look like? And, and it's different for everybody.

[00:19:22] Um, and so that's one of the big things, um, that, that I learned. I think the other big thing that I've learned is, is that, um, there's, uh, we, we do a lot of work associated with family members adopting family members.

[00:19:40] So either through our kinship program, um, or through, uh, we're, uh, Wendy's Wonderful Kids partner where, um, you know, uh, family members are adopting younger siblings typically, um, in that situation.

[00:19:55] And so, um, the supportive services for those individuals is also extremely important because they, um, are sort of becoming parents, not by choice, but, um, because of some external influence and forcing, um, that to happen.

[00:20:12] And so, um, we're sort of incorporating all of the work that we do in regards to mental and behavioral health, along with, um, adoption and foster care and, and some of these other type programs and, and really sort of connecting the dots and saying, this is a whole spectrum of services that are sort of needed for this population of people we serve. Yeah. Yeah. That's great to hear the, the openness.

[00:20:35] I, I, I truly think that, uh, post-adoption is the, um, it's the Cinderella world. It's Cinderella, the adoption world. And, uh, you know, in, in theory, what did somebody tell me? In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there's a whole load of difference between theory and practice.

[00:20:59] And, and, and, and the, the, the, the journey starts at the, at the, at the place, that point of point of placement. And, uh, that, that's where the support should be really, really, uh, ramped up. Um, and, but me and my wife haven't got any, uh, haven't got any kids. Uh, uh, so I, when I look in this space, I can, I think about my own learning journey.

[00:21:29] And, uh, openness to outside stuff, outside people, coaching and stuff like that. So I've had an awful, an awful lot of business coaching and more kind of mindset-y coaching as well. And I think, I think of people, friends of mine, uh, who, uh, derided me, who, who took the mickey out of me. Right. Are you going, you're going to see another coach?

[00:21:56] Are you, you know, can't, can't you get it sorted yourself? You know, or, uh, if I was going to see it in Britain, in Britain, a lot of people say, well, we're, you, you're ahead of us culturally in terms of therapy and that sort of stuff. So people will say, well, haven't you got any friends that you can talk to about your problems like that? So there's, uh, there's some, there's some strange beliefs, strange beliefs out there in, in, in this, in this space.

[00:22:22] And I, I think that one thing that America gets better is, uh, gets better on the whole is this openness. Yeah. To, uh, to, to support from others. Others. And, and that, that gladdens my heart. That's something is really, really, really important. I think it's, it's interesting to note that, and I, this is so true with all the people that I talk about. Once you've seen an adoption story, you've seen an adoption story.

[00:22:51] There are no two that are the same. There are no two that are different because the, the dynamic of the situation that created the adoption, but then also the dynamic of the, the kids is very different too. I mean, I've got three kids and they're about as different as different can be. Um, you know, different culturally, different personality wise, um, different in their, in their, uh, goals and ideals and everything else.

[00:23:21] And so they're in their 22, 20 and 16. So they're sort of starting to figure out life as it stands right now. Um, but it's hard, it's, it's difficult because it's, it, while we've all got some similar and same lived experience, um, it isn't the same. It, it's, it's very different, um, because of, of the fact that humans are messy, right? We just are, we're, we're sort of, we, we contradict and conflict ourselves all the time.

[00:23:50] Um, and we do a wonderful job of beating ourselves up for, for, um, doing things that, um, you know, we, we think, um, maybe aren't the right way to do it. But when in reality, there is no right or wrong way to do a lot of things.

[00:24:05] And so I think just providing an avenue where people can share, um, lived experience, um, and help others identify that, um, hey, I went through something similar while it's not the same. I went through a similar situation.

[00:24:22] I think is what we're going to find is going to be, um, a really good pathway for us to make sure that, um, you know, again, people feel better about the work that they've done and in the individuals that they are and the families that they've created, um, along the way.

[00:24:39] So we're, we're excited about the, the sort of transition and change, um, and, in, in essence, sort of getting people to just talk, um, like you said, that sort of openness about being willing to share, um, not only one's feelings, but one's experiences as well. Yeah. That's interesting. Cause I was just about to ask you, you mentioned vulnerability, um, uh, vulnerability earlier on.

[00:25:03] And before I came into the adoption world, I used to do work in elementary schools, um, uh, here in, in the UK and the, uh, funnily enough, you talked about dreams beyond dreams. The, the work that I did was, uh, helping kids make their dreams come true, uh, and, uh, help them kind of ignore others that said that they couldn't make their dreams come true.

[00:25:28] And, uh, and, and, and, and, and from that in, um, in, uh, uh, an early moment of, of that work, uh, I found myself telling a story about being bullied. Right. So it's, uh, when I was about the age of the kids that I was running the workshop in there, in their class with, um, and the, I'm just getting goose goosebumps actually now.

[00:25:56] And that's 12 years ago that that happened, but there, there was this, I noticed this sudden drop of buzz in the classroom. Right. So they, they really, really tuned into me when I talked about being, when I talked to me about being bullied and that I had the sense.

[00:26:26] That that vulnerability was the best I'd stumbled across upon the, the best empathy builder, the best connector.

[00:26:39] I got the sense that nobody in, in that school and the many schools I worked with afterwards, um, had no adult had ever related to them on, on, on this, uh, on this subject, right? Their personal experience on the subject. So I'm, I'm wondering what vulnerability means to you as a leader and also as a dad. What does it mean to you?

[00:27:10] So, um, I'll take being vulnerable as being a leader first, cause that's the easier one. I think of it. I thought it, I thought it might be. I gave you two options. I was thinking, what shall I go? Okay. Give him a minute. Um, so I think, um, you know, we've been dealing with some stuff. So I did the, the part of the reason I'm picking the leader first is we've been dealing with some things as an agency that have been headwinds for us.

[00:27:33] Um, and so I've been, um, extremely vulnerable with our staff and extremely vulnerable with, um, our employees, um, in essence, sort of writing an every couple of day message slash blog. If you want to call it, um, type format of just how I'm feeling. Right.

[00:27:56] And, you know, I used, you know, we'd kind of gotten, um, a couple of pieces of bad news in a row, um, in regards to some funding and, um, some other things. And, you know, I, I kind of expressed to, to staff in one of those messages, I said, I kind of feel like I'm in the, in the ninth round of a heavyweight fight. Um, it just, I, I know I'm still fighting, but I feel a little numb.

[00:28:22] Um, and I know the, what I'm swinging back with is, is not nearly as, as strong or as powerful as what it could be. Um, and I said, it's an unfortunate place to be in when you have an agent, you know, an agency that's sort of going through it because you sort of want, I told our staff, I said, you want, I want to be the leader that's in the forefront fighting for, um, you know, what it is that we think is, is right. And just in this particular case.

[00:28:49] Um, and so I said, it just, it's, it said, if I take a step back the next couple of days, you'll understand why it's just me sort of getting into my own, you know, getting my, um, mind right in, in, in being prepared for whatever this next round is. And so, um, the response that I got from our staff was overwhelmingly positive, um, from that.

[00:29:13] And they, they felt like, wow, you, you, I feel the same way or, um, you know, I, it, it's good to know that, um, you know, leadership is attuned to the way that we also feel, um, in, in messages of, of sort of continued support, um, in that particular way.

[00:29:33] And it's not really meant to be an us against the world mentality, but rather, um, knowing them that I'm paying attention to what's going on, um, and being vulnerable with the fact that, you know, it's, it, it, there's a reason why they say it's lonely at the top. Um, in large part, um, in large part, because it is lonely at the top.

[00:29:53] And so the ability to be vulnerable with folks at times to let them know that you're struggling too, um, and that you maybe don't have all the answers, but you're working through it is, um, I think empowering for me because it removes some of that pressure from me, but it also lets them know that it's, it isn't a matter of, um, me not recognizing that, that, um, that we're sort of in the, in the spin cycle, so to speak.

[00:30:21] Um, so that's sort of being as a, as a, as a leader, um, and then also being very vulnerable in the sense that I don't have all the answers. You know, the, the folks that are doing the day-to-day work, um, you know, they have a, a lot more answers than, than I do. And, and really being vulnerable to the sense that you've got an idea or you've got a concept that you think will work, um, or, um, a relationship that we should be,

[00:30:46] embarking on, um, you know, please, please, please, please, please forward those on so we can, um, continue to, to drive, um, the mission of LFS forward. Um, as a parent, it's, um, it's hard, right? As a parent to be vulnerable because you, you, um, you, um, societal norms, you know, you, you never want to give in to your parent, um, right?

[00:31:15] Um, you want to be this strong, um, fatherly figure, motherly figure. And, and I think it's changing a little bit. Um, the pendulum has maybe swung maybe a little bit too far the other direction, um, in regards to giving the children sort of a lot of control and how things going on.

[00:31:33] But, um, you know, when I was raising young kids, um, you know, the, the societal norms were that, you know, it's steadfast fatherly figure, um, you know, bring the hammer whenever you need to bring the hammer sort of, of, uh, mentality.

[00:31:52] And so, um, you know, being vulnerable with my kids now that they're young adults and, you know, being a little bit more open with them in regards to, um, you know, some of the things that they're dealing with or some of the concerns that they have, or, um, even being more vulnerable with my personal life with them and saying, you know, I don't have it all figured out. Um, and, you know, I'm almost 50 years old. Um, it's opened up dialogue with them.

[00:32:21] That's very different than, um, what it would have been. And I think, you know, um, sort of some or a lot of it's ego driven. Um, you know, my, my, uh, grandfather always had a saying, so there's two kinds of people in the world. There's those that have, those that are humble and those that have yet to be humbled. Um, I think there's no more humbling experience than parenting. Right. Um, and so, and it takes time, um, because it's a little bit of a blunt force object.

[00:32:49] Parenting is, is that it's just sort of a, you know, it's a game of whack-a-mole all the time. Um, but, um, you know, I think there's, there's opportunities for us to be, um, more vulnerable with our kids, the older they get, because I think they, they begin to start having some of those shared life experiences too. Um, and the, the willingness for, for us to give them the space because they are so different.

[00:33:18] Um, and it's a different time. It's a different world. I mean, it's, it doesn't seem like it's the world's changed so much in 20, 22 years, but it's changed a lot in 22 years. Um, you know, when I was in school, I didn't have, I didn't, when I was in college, I didn't have a cell phone. Um, social media was not a thing. Um, and now, you know, kids are, are dealing a lot with those sorts of things and it's different pressures and in a different environment for sure.

[00:33:46] So being vulnerable with them to say, you know, I didn't have those experiences. So explain to me what, what is that like to have those pressures when you're 18, 19, 20 years old too. Does any moment come to mind, uh, a big learning moment and vulnerability and, and one of your kids or, or if it's too personal, right? You know? No. Yeah. I'm, I'm an open book, Simon.

[00:34:09] And so, um, you know, I think, um, so I'm now divorced and remarried, um, and, um, that time in which my first wife and I, um, got divorced being very vulnerable with the kids in regards to where I was, um, within the relationship, um, with my ex-wife.

[00:34:31] Um, and being in a place where, um, being vulnerable with the kids to say, if you want the best version of your dad and you want the best version of your mom, this is important for all of us. Um, and that it's not, you know, it's, it isn't about any one particular thing or even a couple of things. It's just kind of, um, where your mom and I's relationship ended up being. And, um, it's not due to infidelity.

[00:35:01] It's not due to any of these other things. It just is, we've just sort of grown apart over the course of the years and, um, you know, really kind of working with them and saying that this is, um, a time for us all to focus on ourselves and make sure that we're all as healthy as we possibly can be, even though the situation is going to look very different in the future. So it was, it was an interesting time for sure to kind of work through all of that with our kids. Yeah. It's big.

[00:35:31] I'm just connecting a few of the themes, you know, um, you, you, you talked about, you know, this 23 years in, in, in banking. You talked about, you mentioned the word ego and vulnerability here. Um, and that there, there, there's a lot of ego in banking from what I can gather. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. It's, I mean, and I was in sales. Um, so it was like double ego, right?

[00:36:00] It was double ego all the time. Um, and, um, it's, that's a, um, that can be a very good place to be, you know, from a personal sort of emotional well, you know, wellbeing perspective. It can also be a very sort of, um, you know, kind of Icarus flying close to the sun, um, sort of scenario too.

[00:36:25] Um, because you're sort of, in a lot of ways, you're sort of always running hot, um, in, in regards to, you know, how you're, you're, you're pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing and pushing. Um, and so it was, it was a significant life change. I work harder today than I ever did before, Simon. Um, but, um, I'm, I don't have, my stress is different.

[00:36:49] Um, and my stress is tied to other people's success rather than my own success, which means I have a more, you know, more fulfilling life in my days. Although the, the, there are stressful and, and horribly difficult days, um, at the agency, um, those days in which, um, we have some amazing, amazing stories.

[00:37:12] Just amazing stories of just sort of life-changing, um, events for folks, literally where we're saving people's lives. Not from sort of a physical health perspective, but, um, you know, getting them on a pathway to where, um, they can be successful adults. Um, it far outweighs the stress, um, and far outweighs, and it makes those hours seemingly like they're minutes.

[00:37:39] Um, I don't have any long days here because for every, for every little thing I've got to take care of, I've got a positive story on the other side, sort of balancing it out. So it's a truly sort of amazing, um, transition from what I was doing to what I am doing today. Yeah. And the guy that suggested that you apply. Yeah. What does he say?

[00:38:09] So, um, it's been a while since I've talked to him, but it is, um, you know, he, he just, he, about, this was probably about a year after I'd started. And he, he said, I told you so. And, you know, he was in HR, so he was an HR executive here in town and he was the board chair with me. Um, and he goes, I told you so. And I said, well, I go, clearly you're good at your job because you can, you can see in other people what they necessarily can't see in themselves.

[00:38:38] And, um, not that I didn't think I couldn't run an organization or all, I didn't have the skills or all that other stuff. But again, it wouldn't have ever dawned on me to even, um, attempt, um, for this type of a role had he not, you know, kind of made that comment on that, that one Saturday morning. So, um, I should reach back out to him, Simon, and give him an update because it's been, um, you know, fairly interesting couple of years since the last, it's probably been about 18 months since I've talked to him.

[00:39:07] So I'm going to have to reach back out to him and, and, uh, you know, tell him thank you, but also give him an update. What, what was the moment when you realized that it was about more than you? Cause you said it was in banking. It was about you and, and at Lutheran services, it, it's about the world or the world in Nebraska, I guess. I, you know, so I did the course I'm in banking.

[00:39:36] So I did the whole pros, cons T square went down through this thing and I, I, and for 24 hours wrote all of the things down, but didn't sort of recycle through them. So I had a bunch of duplicates in there, had a list that was probably about a legal pad full.

[00:39:52] Um, and you know, when I, when I was looking at that list, I, I, I was going through it and in, it was actually going through that list that it made me realize that this is, this is about, it's less about me and more about what the impact and what the future is. Because the majority of the things that were in the pro column had very little to do with me.

[00:40:17] It had to do with, you know, you know, the, the ability for me to, um, spend more meaningful time with my kids. Cause it wasn't gonna have to travel as much for my job. Right. It was the ability for me to not only, um, do the work that I'm doing, but also grow as a human being. Cause I'm just around this environment. Right. And I'm, I'm not in this sort of, um, economic eco chamber that, um, you know, banking can be in.

[00:40:45] And I'm in this health and human services environment where you can't help, but learn tips and tricks on how to, you know, to, to become a better person. Um, and so it started looking through that list and started noticing that the lion's share of all of the things that were there literally had nothing to do with me, but had everything to do with either my family. Um, or my community or the impact that it was going to have, um, all of those things.

[00:41:12] And it was sort of, that was sort of the aha moment to say, oh, well, this is, this is why, you know, this opportunity has presented itself for you in this particular time. And not that I didn't love banking. I mean, I loved doing the work that I did. Um, I'm a relationship driven person. Um, and so being in sales, um, it sort of, it sort of filled my bucket, but in a different sort of way.

[00:41:40] Um, and so this was a unique opportunity to take all of those lived experiences, but do it for the betterment of every single person we serve as well as those communities that we, um, that we have offices in, in, in, in, in across the entirety of the state. So it just, it was sort of a unique, surreal experience. Um, I don't know if you've read that book, what color is your parachute?

[00:42:06] So I'm not done the full thing yet, but it's the same concept, right? You write all these things that you, you know, that you want to do in life or the things that provide you in, in, in joy. And then you start to catch this theme that starts getting, getting interwoven within those words. Um, and I kind of figured out through this whole process that that was what was missing for me is I wasn't, I wasn't externally focused enough.

[00:42:36] In my activity. And I wasn't getting that enjoyment or creating that balance in life. Um, that was allowing me or was not allowing me to be fully fulfilled. Yeah. So the analysis allowed you to see the wood for the trees. Right. Yeah. It's revealed itself. Yeah. I'm a little slow, Simon. So it took me about 48 hours to get there, but I eventually got there. Yeah.

[00:43:03] It's amazing how the, how insights, you know, um, how different you talked about every adoption being different, you know, every person being different or the kids being different. I think every insight is different and insight stories.

[00:43:20] So, um, my realization moment was talking to a coach and we weren't talking about my future at all. I was just having a really enjoyable conversation with her. Yeah. And, and, and I just blurted out. And I want, I want your, I want, she's literally called Liz. I want your job, Liz.

[00:43:50] I want to, I want to help other people. And that's how, so yours was really, really precise. And it was stimulated by this conversation, this HR chap saw that you had the potential for doing this. Then you did, you sat down with your legal pad, you did all that. And then you looked at the, you looked, you noticed that the one column was all about not you. And one column was about you.

[00:44:15] And that's not, so it's all, but, but mine was completely random. Completely random and not formed either. Yours was formed. Your insight was formed. It was a role, whereas mine was like wide open. Yeah. Completely wide open. What do you think makes us insight prone?

[00:44:46] I think some of it's the, I think some of it is our natural intuition. I think, and then I think some of it is, is that we, I think if we, if we take a step, or at least this was the situation in my case is, is that I had multiple opportunities over the course of a three or four year period to get smacked in the face, to kind of realize that I needed to do something different.

[00:45:13] And so sometimes, again, sometimes we're, it's stubbornness, it's ego. It's sort of all of those things that get lined up that sort of keep us from realizing and seeing that there's an opportunity for change. But I think there's oftentimes, you know, for years, it was the conversation with an external person and with mine. That was somebody saying, Hey, you should take a look at this. There's oftentimes. There's a similarity there actually.

[00:45:43] Yeah. Yeah. It was, it wasn't us. It was somebody else. Yeah. Stimulated by somebody else. External influence that's saying, Hey, you know, either think about this or through the dialogue in interacting with people. I think, you know, we, we sort of come back to these sort of common themes that are kind of sitting behind that sort of frontal lobe that's saying, you know, I am ready for change. I am ready for whatever it is that I need to do in the future.

[00:46:12] So I think there's, it's, it's a component of that, but I don't know that we're naturally, some people are wired that way, but I don't, I don't know that we're naturally, we're sort of wired to sort of see the, these opportunities for, for change. In ourselves until that sort of outside influence sort of sparks, you know, real movement on that or a realization that, Hey, you know, maybe this is something beyond, beyond me. Yeah.

[00:46:43] And it is, yeah. Beyond, beyond us, beyond us. So Chris, I'm just conscious of your time. Is there anything that you'd like to share that I've not asked you about? Oh, I don't think so. We covered a lot of space, Simon. I appreciate the time.

[00:47:08] I love, I love talking about this, the, this topic of sort of adoption and, you know, I love the fact that you're sort of woven in vulnerability into that, because I think. Um, you almost have to be in order, um, to make adoption part of your life. And so, um, I just appreciate the opportunity for, for us to sit down and chat.

[00:47:34] Um, it's, it's one of, this will be one of those conversations. It's going to take me two or three days to sort of figure out, but there's meaning and impact in every sort of interaction like this. And, uh, I look forward to, to kind of figuring out myself, um, you know, where does this take me personally? Do your staff know that you're, you're a dad through adoption? Yeah. Yeah. I've been very vocal, very vocal and open with everybody.

[00:48:03] This, this is part of the reason why I'm here. It's part of the narrative, right? It's not, it's not exactly the reason why I'm here, but it is, it is part of, um, it is part of my story. Yeah. That's great. That's great. I was over in, um, uh, this time a couple of years ago, uh, I was on the other side of your country in South Carolina, uh, working with, uh, uh, a fellow adoptee.

[00:48:32] Danny runs a children's ministries down in Greenwood, South Carolina. And he's an adoptee. Uh, and as I heard him speak to, to the, to the kids. So some of the kids in this children's home are, are, are from adoptions that are broken down. I, I felt like there was a huge, there was a huge opportunity for him to talk more about him as an adoptee.

[00:48:59] Uh, as, and you know, to, to use your phrase, the vulnerability to key into that theme, um, to, to do that for, as a, uh, as a, as a rapport builder, as a, uh, as a conversation opener, as a, all that stuff. Um, and, uh, so I was a little bit surprised that he hadn't spotted it because he's a great storyteller, this guy, Danny.

[00:49:23] Um, uh, and so I, I suggested to him nicely that he could, he could do, he could, um, he could do a little bit more of that. So I need to ask him whether he is. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So thanks. Thanks, Chris. And, uh, as always, listeners, if you want to check out what Chris is doing, put some links in, um, in, in the show notes to, to, to Lutheran Family Services and the social. So that's great. Um, thank you listeners. Thank you, Chris. It's been a great, uh, great conversation.

[00:49:53] Yeah. Thank you so much. Thanks, Justin. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care. Bye-bye.