The Rhythmn Of Spirit With Mj Buck

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees Podcast. So today I'm delighted to be joined by Mj, Mj Buck. Looking forward to our conversation today, Mj.

[00:00:12] Mj Buck Me too. Thanks so much for having me on Simon for all the work that you're doing with adoptees.

[00:00:19] Mj Buck Thank you. So Mj's been on before so the conversation was long overdue so thank you for getting back in touch.

[00:00:29] Mj Buck So today we're going to talk about Thriving Adoptees as we do on the show.

[00:00:36] And before we hit record you said well I'm not sure I'm there yet. What did you say I'm not there yet?

[00:00:41] Mj Buck I did say that I think that thriving is an ideal that I think we have. To me thriving is like oh wait I'm up here I'm in the stratosphere I'm doing great.

[00:00:57] Mj Buck But I think thriving to me is it's a process you know it's it's it's a good goal to have but I don't know if I'm actually if I can say that I'm there 100% like I'm thriving and this is where I want to be kind of thing. I'm evolving I guess.

[00:01:18] Mj Buck Are we setting the bar too high?

[00:01:25] Mj Buck That's a really good question. Maybe we are maybe we should and and maybe the bar for each of us is a little different you know because we're all such unique individuals as people but also as an adopted individual.

[00:01:39] Mj Buck We're we're all at different places and the way that we cope with stuff is different. So maybe thriving is yeah it's it's really up to the person to decide how they're thriving how they want to thrive what that word means to them.

[00:01:57] Mj Buck Yeah.

[00:02:00] Mj Buck There's so many different places I could go. I'll get that one right. So I I'm gonna go with my foot my gut instinct which was a thing I heard from a mentor of mine many years ago. He said something like the biggest goals are the easiest ones to score.

[00:02:22] Mj Buck Right. So like a big goal would be you know if we were talking about running a running a practice or running a or changing the world right or me right a big goal for me would be okay. So I've I've I've I've we've done 500 episodes.

[00:02:46] Mj Buck We've got like 100 closing on about 110,000 downloads or listens right. So a big goal would be like okay we've got to get to a million.

[00:02:58] Mj Buck We're going to get to a million downloads within the next year right that would be what people would think is you know traditionally is a big goal.

[00:03:05] Mj Buck We've got but he was thinking he was thinking he was talking about the biggest goals are the easiest ones to score right so you've got you've got a soccer soccer goal imagine that was five times bigger.

[00:03:19] Mj Buck We've got it would be easier it would be easier it would be easier it would be easier it would be easier it would be less less involved it would be easier to to to hit the goal and and then wouldn't like be wouldn't be back wouldn't like be easier.

[00:03:36] If if we weren't setting the bar so high.

[00:03:39] Mj Buck We've got it I get what you're saying yeah the details the the small the small things in between the big goals I think are the yeah the difficult parts right.

[00:03:51] Mj Buck And and I also think.

[00:03:56] Mj Buck This so the the guy that shared that with me is a guy called Richard Wilkins and his his wife and what they work together called Liz Liz ivory she she took.

[00:04:09] Mj Buck She says well if we're always okay with not feeling okay.

[00:04:16] Mj Buck We're always okay.

[00:04:19] Mj Buck We're not if we're okay with not feeling okay.

[00:04:23] Mj Buck We're always okay it's easier if we're saying we have to be feel like we're thriving all the time we have to be feeling that we're at the top of our game all the time.

[00:04:36] Mj Buck We're not we're not setting ourselves up for.

[00:04:39] Mj Buck Yeah, we're not setting ourselves up for a happy life because we're always going to be resisting what is.

[00:04:46] Mj Buck Yeah, I get that I think that.

[00:04:50] Mj Buck When I say I don't necessarily feel like I'm thriving.

[00:04:54] Mj Buck I think that.

[00:04:55] Mj Buck Like the big goals.

[00:04:58] Mj Buck I had some big goals last year and I've I've reached them I'm there.

[00:05:02] Mj Buck But that doesn't necessarily cause me to feel like I'm thriving.

[00:05:07] Mj Buck Like I feel like most days I'm just trying to get through the day.

[00:05:12] Mj Buck Just help me get through the day because.

[00:05:16] Mj Buck Yeah, it's just there's so many different things going on, I think, in my internal landscape that I get caught up in, you know, that causes me to feel like, you know, am I thriving with what's going on, you know, this this sense of.

[00:05:34] Mj Buck And I think maybe you had something like we have this ideal with thriving is, maybe for me thriving right now is just getting through the end of the damn day, right?

[00:05:43] Mj Buck Like if I made it through the end of my work day, and I made it home and I'm sitting, having my my dinner that that was thriving for me in that particular day.

[00:05:54] Mj Buck So I'm sure other people might not agree with that definition of thriving before that's where I'm at right now.

[00:06:01] Mj Buck You know, that's that's kind of where I'm at.

[00:06:03] Mj Buck Yeah.

[00:06:04] Mj Buck Yeah, but that takes the pressure off.

[00:06:07] Mj Buck Yeah, you're right.

[00:06:08] Mj Buck It's okay to be where you're at.

[00:06:11] Mj Buck And I think is, as adopted individuals there's there's.

[00:06:15] Mj Buck We want to heal right we hear that word a lot heal.

[00:06:19] Mj Buck I'm on this healing journey and I think that's great.

[00:06:22] Mj Buck But in my experience.

[00:06:25] Mj Buck I don't know I like the word evolve.

[00:06:27] Mj Buck I don't know if we'll ever reach the point where we're where we feel completely quote unquote heal to me it's like this evolution or evolving.

[00:06:37] Mj Buck I mean I hope till the day I die I'm always evolving that I'm always shifting that I'm you know.

[00:06:43] Mj Buck Yeah growing as an individual, not just emotionally but in spirit to soul spirit all of that.

[00:06:52] Mj Buck It's I I've I feel like.

[00:06:57] Mj Buck Yeah, thriving is is all of that growing not only emotionally getting through working through trauma, but it's it's also addressing the soul and the spirit and how are we how are we integrating all of that.

[00:07:12] Mj Buck How are we making ourselves or or allowing ourselves to feel into that and reach a point where we feel more integrated if that makes any sense at all.

[00:07:22] Mj Buck I feel like I was wondering a little bit.

[00:07:25] Mj Buck There's a few there's a few different bits out out there.

[00:07:27] Mj Buck I think first off, like can spirit grow.

[00:07:33] Mj Buck Can spirit grow.

[00:07:35] Mj Buck Oh, I think so.

[00:07:35] Mj Buck Yeah, I think our spirits can grow.

[00:07:38] Mj Buck I think that.

[00:07:40] Mj Buck We and I'm getting a little woo woo.

[00:07:43] Mj Buck Okay, so I think we yeah.

[00:07:46] Mj Buck Yeah, we we have a soul and we have a spirit.

[00:07:48] Mj Buck Most of us live on this plane, I think, but we're just we're in this human body right we're in this human form and we're going through life and we got to do what we need to do.

[00:07:59] Mj Buck We go into therapy so that we can heal and all of that.

[00:08:03] Mj Buck And that addresses the emotional the things that we want to heal from.

[00:08:08] Mj Buck But I think that there's also maybe that's why adoptees have a more difficult time in this healing process is that we need to look at also the spirit and the soul like what are we doing?

[00:08:21] Mj Buck What are the things that we're doing to take care of our spirit and our soul.

[00:08:25] Mj Buck And when I what I mean by that, for me thriving or one way of thriving is engaging in the things that I love like my passions that somehow got really really suppressed when I was in this very difficult marriage and some of the other things that have happened in my life.

[00:08:42] Mj Buck I mean, even the job that I have right now is somewhat it's very exhausting and so it tends to I don't know crush the spirit is the right word.

[00:08:52] Mj Buck But it you know, there are things that I think that we need to do to take care of our soul and spirit that maybe we don't address in a therapy room right when you're sitting across from it from the therapist.

[00:09:04] Mj Buck What are the things that bring you passion.

[00:09:06] Mj Buck What are the things that bring you passion.

[00:09:06] Mj Buck Can we can we bring some restoration in in terms of what makes you what makes you happy what makes you grow not just this heavy, you know I got to heal but what are what are the glimmers that make you.

[00:09:19] Mj Buck Hum during the day.

[00:09:22] Mj Buck For me it's it's creative things writing music.

[00:09:28] Mj Buck Reading about the soul and spirit things like that.

[00:09:34] Mj Buck So I don't know have I wandered off the path Simon.

[00:09:38] Mj Buck Well, no, it's your path right so it goes the conversation goes where it goes ask a few questions and we go we kind of go where we go in the in the in the moment.

[00:09:51] Mj Buck What I was thinking is is you're you're engaging the sorts of conversation sorry the sorts of activities you talking about that is about engaging right is it's the right hand side of the brain.

[00:10:02] Mj Buck Right so yes, the creative side of the brain.

[00:10:05] Mj Buck It's the creative side of the brain.

[00:10:07] Mj Buck And it you know is is that the the part of the brain that is more in charge when we're younger.

[00:10:16] Mj Buck Because you know like all the all the the left the the inner critic the inner critic is in the left hand side of the brain and it's there's a particular part of the left hand side of the brain where it where it sits.

[00:10:33] Mj Buck The the striver the striver the striver the inner critic the com the comparison the the overthinking the language center that's all left brain stuff.

[00:10:47] Mj Buck Whereas going with the flow right right hand right hand brain stuff.

[00:10:52] Mj Buck You know just like this conversation right we're just going in there going in the flow and we're chatting away and my wife asked me a question not realizing that I'm on a on a call.

[00:11:02] Mj Buck I don't know.

[00:11:03] Mj Buck I don't know.

[00:11:03] Mj Buck So but we just we just we just we just going with the flow we're going with the the throw these there's not a lot of thought there's not a lot of thought going on.

[00:11:13] Mj Buck So that's what that's what popped into my head when you talked about those sorts of activities.

[00:11:21] Mj Buck And then does the you know the the eye kept can the spirit grow can the spirit be crushed.

[00:11:32] Mj Buck I mean I guess it depends what you mean by what what we mean by spirit.

[00:11:41] Mj Buck So you talked about spirit and soul are they interchangeable for you are they different things what do they what do those words mean to you.

[00:11:50] Mj Buck I guess it could be in some ways interchangeable.

[00:11:54] Mj Buck I think that when I think about spirit I think about who we are at the very essence of ourselves like our what does.

[00:12:07] Mj Buck I think that things like trauma tend to suppress our spirit right we forget who we are.

[00:12:19] Mj Buck Especially for adoptees like from from the from the very beginning we're taken away we're separated from our birth or biological families and we're placed into a situation that was beyond our control.

[00:12:31] Mj Buck So that's that's that's the kind of the beginning of this.

[00:12:36] Mj Buck This dissonance I guess with within this inner dissonance for lack of better words where.

[00:12:44] Mj Buck Yeah, we from the very beginning we're trying to figure out I think who we are it so to speak and so then we're placed for me I was a trans race trans racial international adoptee.

[00:12:56] Mj Buck So my parents were white I grew up in the south where I experienced lots of you know microaggressions racial discrimination and.

[00:13:04] Mj Buck And so that that.

[00:13:06] Mj Buck I think suppresses our spirit that suppresses who we are who work her who were meant to be in some ways.

[00:13:14] Mj Buck And so for me as a young kid music was the thing that I grabbed gravitated toward I started playing the piano around the age of eight or nine.

[00:13:23] Mj Buck And that was what lifted my spirit that's what helped give me an identity.

[00:13:30] Mj Buck Outside of the physical identity that I was kind of put into like growing up in a white family if that makes sense.

[00:13:40] Mj Buck You know all of the ties to my cultural roots severed.

[00:13:45] Mj Buck Didn't know the word birth family until I think until I started my master's program quite honestly because I had no interest.

[00:13:53] Mj Buck You know and searching for for my birth family or any of that till till much later.

[00:13:58] Mj Buck So yeah I think going back to what is spirit and all of that I think that all of us have this this desire to be authentic right and to know who we are for adoptees it gets convoluted especially transracial adoptees because of the identity piece.

[00:14:18] Mj Buck So weaving our way back into what our passions are who we are at the very essence I think that that's all contained in the under the umbrella of spirit.

[00:14:30] Mj Buck Yeah.

[00:14:31] Mj Buck Yeah.

[00:14:32] Mj Buck Yeah.

[00:14:33] Mj Buck When you talked about woo woo.

[00:14:37] Mj Buck You mentioned the word woo woo a couple of minutes.

[00:14:39] Mj Buck Yeah.

[00:14:40] Mj Buck Right we're totally okay with going woo woo right.

[00:14:43] Mj Buck An idea came to me because I listened to some stuff that people would consider woo woo so you know I'm I'm okay.

[00:14:51] Mj Buck I'm not sure whether I could out woo woo you or you could out woo woo me but you know.

[00:14:56] Mj Buck The thing came to me is that a lot of people in that space who have got nothing to do with adoption.

[00:15:10] Mj Buck I have no lived experience of adoption and I'm not speaking into adoption either.

[00:15:16] Mj Buck But they talk about the separate self.

[00:15:19] Mj Buck They talk about the self.

[00:15:21] Mj Buck No they talk about the spirit and my favorite teacher would he would he would say I don't think he would use the word suppressing our spirit.

[00:15:40] Mj Buck I love that.

[00:15:41] Mj Buck Yeah.

[00:15:42] Mj Buck It's kind of it gets in the way of right it it it it it it drowns it out you know it it's it veils it veils who we are and by the word it.

[00:15:56] Mj Buck We could talk about trauma veiling our essence.

[00:16:03] Mj Buck We could talk about feeling disconnected from ourself.

[00:16:08] Mj Buck So we could also talk about.

[00:16:14] Mj Buck A movement away from the uppercase self to the lowercase lowercase self you know like identifying with ego rather than our essence.

[00:16:27] Mj Buck Yeah.

[00:16:30] Mj Buck So they they talk about all that stuff in a non adoptee sense and a non non adoptee context.

[00:16:39] Mj Buck And I was an idea I came up with last week was the fact that we do it earlier than most adoptees do it.

[00:16:50] Mj Buck Adoptees Adoptee spirit is suppressed earlier than other people's than biologicals.

[00:17:05] Mj Buck Yeah, yeah, you use the word disconnection I think and I love the word eclipse to that I think really beautifully describes how the noise around us kind of dampens our spirit or eclipses our spirit.

[00:17:21] Mj Buck But yeah, this this the disconnection happens at birth for some of us right removed from our birth family.

[00:17:30] Mj Buck And then we're for me I was placed in an orphanage for I don't know it was a good solid four months I think before I was adopted and you know for for young infant four months you may think oh it's a short time.

[00:17:42] Mj Buck That's a long time for a small infant to be separated and to be placed in an orphanage with who knows what kind of care, you know, so I'm speaking to the other adoptees out there too who may have had that experience.

[00:17:56] Mj Buck So that disconnect and that that kind of stays with you it's pre verbal traumas right it's what we call pre verbal trauma.

[00:18:03] Mj Buck But that disconnect that sense of displacement stays in it stays in us.

[00:18:10] Mj Buck I mean there's research that shows us now right this pre verbal trauma, the the we call it the primal wound, that kind of thing but I think it, you know, it does something to our spirit to, we were kind of.

[00:18:24] displaced in spirit. And then we're placed in this adoptive family and we're expected to be,

[00:18:31] behave, assimilate, right. To the, the, the dominant culture. And then we get further

[00:18:37] disconnected, I think from, from spirit and some ways. So, you know, it's like this journey of

[00:18:43] reconnecting back to our spirit, to who we are most authentically. And for some of us, like for

[00:18:49] me, it's taken forever to get to that place, you know, and I still, I think I'm still on the path

[00:18:56] in terms of really figuring out who I am, who I want to be connecting with spirit and soul,

[00:19:04] my, my self's purpose, all of that. Yeah. So as you were talking about the orphanage,

[00:19:14] what I got was a, a felt sense of aloneness. Yeah, very much so. Yes. I think that when,

[00:19:24] when I was working with adoptees, I heard that so often, this sense of aloneness, even though

[00:19:30] and, and granted not only adoptees, I'm sure experiences, but for us it's, it's, it's profound

[00:19:37] because of this, this separation that we had from the beginning, right. This displacement.

[00:19:43] But yeah, aloneness. I think I remember feeling that sense of aloneness since from, from the very

[00:19:51] beginning, like as far back as I can remember, just always feeling very alone and very separate

[00:19:56] and very different from the people around me. And so I think it stays, it stays with you in some ways

[00:20:04] and it's pre-verbal. So as a kid, you don't know how to process that. You just know you're different.

[00:20:10] You feel different, but you can't quite put your finger on it. And so you just kind of drift,

[00:20:15] you know, I think that's how I felt. I was drifting for a very, very long time. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:20:23] This, the, the aloneness and then the, the sense of difference and feeling different. And then if I,

[00:20:30] you know, you talked about the microaggressions growing up in a predominantly white area.

[00:20:37] Another thing I've been connecting with that, that difference thing recently is the fact

[00:20:45] that when we're bullied, we, you know, when, when human beings are bullied, right. It is often

[00:20:55] we're bullied on a point, a point of difference, right. So for me as a white guy growing up in a white

[00:21:02] area, I got, I got bullied for having buck teeth, right. I got bullied for going to a different school.

[00:21:14] It was always about difference. Bullies pick on us for difference. And, and there's quite,

[00:21:26] I've heard a lot of people talking about emotional bullying being actually more traumatic than physical

[00:21:37] bullying, you know, but this, if, if we've already got a sense that we're different,

[00:21:45] if we already feel different and then somebody comes along and points out that difference to us,

[00:21:54] it's going to make us feel even more different. And, you know, like feeling alone and feeling

[00:22:00] different and lack of connection, these all, these all seem in the same, um, I would, ballpark to use

[00:22:12] an American. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And it causes that, as you referred to earlier, that sense of

[00:22:20] disconnection, right. Disconnection from yourself, spirit, soul, all of that, but also disconnection with

[00:22:26] a lack of connection with other people, right. That attachment kind of wounding. It just, it just

[00:22:32] leaves a big, um, vacuum. And as a kid, you don't necessarily know what that is, right. You just feel

[00:22:40] this sense of unbelongingness, if that's even a word, um, which causes this eclipse of the soul as your,

[00:22:48] your friend was referring to. So, um, this lack of wholeness or integration that I think that we,

[00:22:55] we, for me, thriving would be restoring that, uh, or one part of thriving would be restoring that

[00:23:01] sense of fragmentation that's caused, um, and becoming more whole, more integrated soul, spirit,

[00:23:09] mind, body, all of that, that connection. And I think it starts with us. Like, um, I think for many of us,

[00:23:19] we look for that connection with other people, especially if you're attachment wounded, we want,

[00:23:23] sometimes we look for others to feel, fill that part of us. And, and often at an unconscious level,

[00:23:29] like I, I need to be with, I need to have, be in a relationship when really we have to do that work

[00:23:34] internally ourselves before we can connect in a, uh, a deeper way with somebody else. That's the hard

[00:23:41] part. Yeah. Isn't this a seeing thing though? Say that again. Isn't this a seeing thing,

[00:23:51] like seeing our wholeness? Hmm. Seeing our wholeness. Can you tell me more about that? Like seeing,

[00:23:58] well, um, it's something that we see rather than something that we do.

[00:24:10] Oh, I see what you mean. Um, that's a, that's a good question. Seeing if we're, if we see it,

[00:24:18] I think that eventually we have capacity to see it. I, for me, it's more of a felt thing, like in my body,

[00:24:26] um, it's more feeling it like I'm less, for example, maybe triggered by something. It feels less vivid.

[00:24:36] We were kind of talking about this before we started to me, the feeling or the sense of being

[00:24:41] more integrated is in the body. Like I, I feel more regulated or I feel, let me put it this way.

[00:24:49] I feel less dysregulated by things that would have caused a big visceral response in my body. Like I

[00:24:56] can sit, I can sit in that place of discomfort or, um, maybe a memory gets triggered, but I can,

[00:25:05] I can sit in it longer and without being so dysregulated than maybe at an earlier time,

[00:25:12] if that makes sense. So yeah, for me, it's not only seeing it, but it's, it's feeling it's a sense

[00:25:17] of embodiment, um, a sense of connection with my, with myself, my, my spirit, soul, uh, mind, body,

[00:25:27] all of that. It's like putting the pieces together and they may not always fit. Like, you know,

[00:25:34] who, who of us is perfect, right? We don't always, we're not always a hundred percent feeling on or

[00:25:39] feeling fully integrated or fully regulated, but is it is this process of getting to a place where

[00:25:45] it's like, um, I give less of a fuck for better, you know what I mean? Like, it's just,

[00:25:53] it's just a place where, um, I let things roll off my back easier, I guess, and, and feel a sense of,

[00:26:00] um, power within, you know, that it's not something external is not controlling me. I'm in control

[00:26:06] of me. And that's to me is, is empowering. That's, that's to me is, um, a more integrated sense of

[00:26:14] myself and my spirit.

[00:26:18] Do you feel whole when you're doing those activities that you were talking about?

[00:26:23] Oh yeah, for sure. That's probably the one, the place that feels most safe to me is, is music.

[00:26:30] I mean, it always has been music art, whether it's writing or drawing, um, those spaces are really

[00:26:37] safe. And I think in many ways, sometimes I feel more connected to those things than human beings,

[00:26:43] you know? Um, but, but that, yes, those activities tend to get me in a place where, um, yeah, I feel

[00:26:53] whole. It's like, that's, that's kind of who I am that defines music and the creative arts define who

[00:26:59] I am. And I'm so, I'm so glad that I can see that now as a kid that's, you know, I didn't realize how

[00:27:07] important music and creativity would be to me, but that's the essence of who I am. And that's,

[00:27:13] I think how I will continue to evolve is putting my places, putting myself in places where I can

[00:27:20] engage in that kind of thing. And so to me, you know, for anyone who's on this evolution or healing

[00:27:27] path, finding the things that help you feel authentic or discovering what helps you feel

[00:27:33] authentic, um, is what, um, will help you feel like you're connecting with your spirit.

[00:27:41] Yeah. So is it a feeling that comes and goes?

[00:27:49] It is. Yeah. Yeah. At work, I would say very rarely, very rarely feel that connection, um, because

[00:27:58] I'm focused, I'm concentrating and it's work. It's not, you know, it's, it's work for those people who

[00:28:05] work in the area that they want to work in and they're able to live out those passions, kudos to

[00:28:11] them. Some of us have to do work because we need to make a living. Right. And it's not

[00:28:16] maybe our first choice, but it, it, it gives me a paycheck. Right. And I have to, we have to,

[00:28:22] we all have to make a living. So, I mean, there, there are parts, I shouldn't, it sounds really

[00:28:28] harsh. There are parts of my job that I enjoy. And there are other parts that I don't that are,

[00:28:32] are, I think more than anything, being in a helping profession, um, takes for me, it takes a lot of my

[00:28:39] energy. It takes a lot of the life force out of me. So I have to find ways to restore back

[00:28:44] to my spirit. And that is things like listening to music, engaging in music, drawing, writing,

[00:28:50] um, for a year while I was going through my divorce, I wrote a lot of shitty poetry and,

[00:28:55] um, it's not the greatest poetry, but it really helped me process what I was feeling and process,

[00:29:02] um, this disconnect that I had internally. It helped, helped me put the pieces back together,

[00:29:08] so to speak. So yeah, that's, that doesn't sound like shitty poetry to me.

[00:29:16] Well, you know, if you're a professional writer at my, but for me, yeah, it was very therapeutic,

[00:29:21] very much part of my, part of my, that's the opposite of shitty.

[00:29:27] Thank you. I totally appreciate that. I do. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm just getting, I'm sensing

[00:29:32] that we're going back to the start of the conversation that we're setting the bar too high,

[00:29:36] but if, if, if the poet, if the poetry did it for you, it did it for you and it was definitely

[00:29:43] not shitty. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. That's, that's true. Setting the bar too high. Um, what was,

[00:29:51] what were you doing the poetry for? You were doing the poetry to let, um, let some stuff then

[00:29:57] presumably, or to express, to, to express what's on the inside, outside. I don't know. What,

[00:30:04] what were you doing? What was the purpose of the poetry? The poetry. There isn't a purpose of poetry.

[00:30:10] There isn't. There really, you know, it's so wild because I love writing. I've always loved writing.

[00:30:16] I wrote this memoir, you know, which would be totally different to be a different story now,

[00:30:20] because of this process of evolution that I've been through over the last year and a half,

[00:30:25] but I wrote it. It just, it just happened. I didn't set out to write poetry. It just,

[00:30:31] it, I think the poetry wanted me to write, to write it, you know, if that makes any sense at all,

[00:30:37] it was speaking to me. I felt called to write it and it just flowed.

[00:30:41] That can't be shitty then.

[00:30:43] Well, you can read it and then tell me, but no, you're right. You're absolutely right. Um,

[00:30:48] if anything, I think is part of somebody's, um, attempt to reconnect to themselves, to their,

[00:30:55] to their soul, to their spirit, then yeah, you're right. It's not shitty. It's, it's, um,

[00:30:59] it's a glimmer. It gives, yeah, it's, it's, it gives you hope. It's something to sink your teeth

[00:31:06] then that, that will help you, um, evolve and get to a higher place. Yeah.

[00:31:13] Yeah. Do you see a distinction between, uh, seeing your spirit and connecting with your spirit?

[00:31:22] Do they, do they, do they feel different? Do they, do they feel different to you?

[00:31:29] Do they, a little, a little bit. Cause when I think of seeing, I think of visually like in my

[00:31:34] head, when you said seeing your spirit, I'm thinking, do I see my spirit physically? No,

[00:31:39] I don't see my spirit physically, but I feel it. I can feel it. It's, it's more of this embodiment of,

[00:31:45] um, who I am at my very essence. Like even maybe the parts of me that other people can't see,

[00:31:52] you know, the, the, the really true MJ who was that person that to me, that's that spirit,

[00:31:59] you know? And yeah, it's more of a feeling internally. This is the sense of my body.

[00:32:05] Yeah. Well, and we can't see it cause it's not a thing.

[00:32:13] Yes. We can't see it physically. Um, but I think that we, some of us can feel it,

[00:32:21] you know, we get to, I, and I realize that some people may think this is way the heck out there

[00:32:25] and we win all of that. But I, I do think that, um, at that level, um, we're, we're getting in

[00:32:33] touch with something we can't, that may not be tangible, like physically it's more this internal

[00:32:39] sense of who I am, who I am at my very core, who I meant to be, who I may be evolving to be.

[00:32:47] Um, so I think our spirit is always evolving, you know? So yeah.

[00:32:54] Ah, okay. I think we've got spirit slightly different.

[00:33:01] What is, what is your idea of spirit? What is spirit to you?

[00:33:04] Well, my, my, my idea of spirit and the word I would normally use for it is consciousness.

[00:33:13] Mm.

[00:33:15] And that cannot be, it can be eclipsed, but it can never be crushed. You talked about

[00:33:28] crushed, crushing spirit. Like, so I wouldn't think that consciousness can't be crushed.

[00:33:34] Consciousness can't be crushed. Can't, consciousness can't be diminished. It can't grow. It doesn't change.

[00:33:45] It's the, uh, unchangeable essence of, of who we are. It's, it's always there and it's sometimes eclipsed.

[00:34:03] Mm-hmm.

[00:34:04] And it's eclipsed to a different, to different layers.

[00:34:09] And so I would be talking about, uh, if it, if it's a light bulb, okay? If it's a light bulb, it's, it's, it's, it's all, it's always on.

[00:34:24] Um, there's, there's no on-off switch, right? There's, there's no, there's no dimmer switch on it.

[00:34:33] It's always giving you, you know, whatever, is it lumens? I think that lumens is the, is the word that people, is the, is the measure for the brightness, right?

[00:34:44] So it's always at a thousand lumens or whatever that is. Um, and it is veiled. And sometimes it's veiled. So sometimes it, that sometimes it might, there might be 10,000 veils.

[00:35:04] And sometimes there's no veil at all.

[00:35:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:35:10] So it never changes. It's just the degree to which it's eclipsed. It's the degree to which it's veiled. It's, it's endarkened. We don't need, we're searching for enlightenment.

[00:35:26] Enlightenment. We don't need to, we don't need to search for enlightenment. We need to see ourselves and feel, I'm with you, right? On that, we need to feel ourselves as the light that has been endarkened.

[00:35:44] Mm-hmm. I think I see where you're, where you're coming from. Yeah, I, I, yeah, I think that spirit to me is, um,

[00:35:56] I think it can evolve and change. Um, yeah, yeah, I think that, um, because as we grow as humans, I think that we, our experiences, our life experiences, um, the knowledge we gain, all of those things can expand our spirit.

[00:36:13] So maybe I'm thinking of our spirit can become more expansive in some ways as we gain knowledge, wisdom, life experience, all of those things and try to make sense of our stories.

[00:36:26] So I don't know. I think when I think of spirit too, when I, when I was talking about spirit being crushed and using that, that ideal, I think that we can, as human beings get to a point where, um, what was the word you used earlier?

[00:36:42] Or I can't remember, but the, this sense of, um, desperation, and maybe that's the way I'm thinking of a word that's deeper than that, where, where we're despond, uh, depression.

[00:36:53] I mean, some people get to the point where they're, they're, um, they experienced such depression that they, you know, um, that they can't function.

[00:37:04] It's very hard for them to function.

[00:37:05] So to me, that speaks of, um, if we're looking at a therapeutic point of view, I mean, that person probably needs therapy and they need medication, maybe psychotic and anti-psychotic medications and things to help them get through that.

[00:37:22] But I think also, um, the thing that we don't look at is, um, the spirit, like I don't talk about spirit in my therapy sessions.

[00:37:32] People would think I'm crazy, but I think that there is something about restoring a sense of spirit is restoring a sense of who we are.

[00:37:40] I get it. You're the idea of consciousness that you were talking about the lights always on. Um, and sometimes the consciousness gets eclipsed. Um, so, I mean, that does make sense to me, but I think that our, in some ways, our spirit can evolve and that we can change. Um, we can change the direction that we go in. Our spirit can evolve. We can expand. We can grow. Um, if we want to, not everybody wants to, I think is the thing.

[00:38:06] Not everybody is in touch with that part of themselves. And so I think for, for some people, maybe they don't want to do that. They don't want to do that kind of work. Um, and for others, for others of us, we're, we're kind of, I don't know, we're on this journey where we want to connect more deeply with spirit. Um, and that, that for me doing that has been part of my own evolving, my own healing process.

[00:38:33] It's not for everybody. I guess I should say that, that maybe some people out there, um, think this is a little too woo-woo for them or, or not within their grasp. Uh, and so, um, but for me, I see even the people that I work with people who come see me, I see that there's a spirit in there.

[00:38:52] What can we do to not only heal you emotionally or help you feel better emotionally, physically, all that, but what can we do to help your spirit evolve as well? To me, it's just so interconnected.

[00:39:04] Yeah.

[00:39:06] Have you heard the term, uh, psycho-spiritual?

[00:39:11] Psycho-spiritual? I don't think I have, but it, it kind of makes sense. Is that what we're talking about here to you?

[00:39:18] Well, uh, uh, a little bit. Um, so most psychological approaches are that they're psychological, they're to do with our emotions and our feelings.

[00:39:32] Whereas psycho-spiritual is to do with our thoughts and feelings and to do with our essence.

[00:39:41] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense to me. Um, maybe that's why I'm so attracted to music because I think music in so many ways touches us at a, at a very, um, I don't know, very, it's, it's, it's very raw.

[00:39:57] I think music can be very raw. And so it touches us in ways that maybe talk therapy can't like sound medicine, sound healing, vibration, sound energy, all of those things, energy work and get to us, um, at a different level than say talk therapy.

[00:40:15] In my opinion, talk therapy only goes so far and I'm a therapist, but I think that, you know, if you've experienced complex trauma or any kind of trauma in your life, um, talk therapy will go, will help you, right. Process some of that. But I think we need other, we need other ways of healing and evolving besides talk therapy.

[00:40:34] Yeah. We say it, we say it a lot on thriving adoptees that talk, talk therapy can't touch pre-verbal trauma.

[00:40:44] Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:40:47] Because if it's pre-verbal, you don't have words for it.

[00:40:49] Right. That's right.

[00:40:50] You don't have words for it.

[00:40:51] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So other things, I mean, uh, I, I know there's a adoptee therapist, Nicole Ronnemacher, we were talking about here, she's an art therapist.

[00:41:01] So she uses art to help people discover more about themselves, explore, evolve, all of that.

[00:41:08] I think I'm a board certified music therapist in addition to being an LCSW.

[00:41:13] So I use the creative arts and, um, expressive arts too, singing bowls, things like that, chimes, that kind of work to help people heal in that way.

[00:41:25] Yeah.

[00:41:26] As well as talk therapy.

[00:41:31] So what do you think gets in the way of us thriving?

[00:41:35] Mm-hmm. That's a really good question. I thought about that. I'm like, Simon's going to ask me that question.

[00:41:40] Well, I think a lot of times what gets, what gets in the way of us healing? Um, for, I'm going to speak for myself personally.

[00:41:53] What's gotten in the way for me many years is this people pleasing saying yes a lot to other people.

[00:42:01] And as an attempt to fit in, I want to say that from a very young age, I became this people pleaser, like almost too nice, too kind.

[00:42:11] Oh, MJ, she's so sweet. She's so this and that. I hate that word sweet, quite honestly now. Um, but, but saying yes a lot to people. Um, I think even at work, like I tend to say, I have said yes a lot and it leads to burnout, you know?

[00:42:28] And so I'm learning how to say no, to put this little protective bubble around me. I'm learning that in the past I said yes a lot to please other people, to be accepted, you know, to get past that sense of disconnection and past the loneliness, all of that.

[00:42:45] Um, but it, it really didn't, it didn't help, right? It just made me tired and, um, I didn't necessarily feel more connected to people when I, when I said yes.

[00:42:56] So, um, yeah, that's, that's gotten me into a lot of trouble over the years, just being a people pleaser, not using my voice.

[00:43:04] Well, I think as a very young person, I didn't have a voice, you know, um, I was the quiet kid in the back of the room, the quiet young adult who never spoke up.

[00:43:13] And so it's taken me a long time, I think, to feel comfortable in my own skin and, and learn how to say no, but put up those boundaries, um, protect my own energy, if you will.

[00:43:27] Have you got a sense of when you saw that or when that, when that changed for you, a moment when that changed for you?

[00:43:39] When that changed for me, I think it's been a very, very slow process. Um, I think I getting into therapy helps. Um, I've been, I, I have a wonderful therapist who's helped me see a lot of things that I didn't see.

[00:43:55] You know, when I, when I went into this profession of therapy, I thought I was fine. I'm healed. You know, I want to do this work. I want to help other adoptees.

[00:44:04] But when I began working with adoptees, it really, um, led me to see that there was a lot of work. I still needed to do myself.

[00:44:11] You know, there was, there were things that I missed. Um, part of it also was being in a very, very difficult marriage, um, where I said, uh, yes, a lot.

[00:44:23] And there's a whole story I won't get into with that, with the marriage and the divorce and all of that.

[00:44:28] But I think, um, maybe when I decided to get a divorce, that's one of the first, one of the first ways of me saying, no, I'm not going to do this any longer.

[00:44:39] Um, so it's taken a very long time. I think for me to get to that point, it's been happening slowly, I would say, but stepping out of my marriage, I think was the biggest, the, the biggest, um, the biggest event where I, that led me to say no, to put this boundary.

[00:44:59] I'm not taking this anymore kind of, um, um, grounding, I guess that makes sense.

[00:45:06] Yeah. Amazing.

[00:45:19] Yeah. Yeah. It's it. I think, um, yeah, for some of us, it's it, I think again, that idea of healing that we have to arrive someplace. Um, I'm not sure we quite arrive. We're always evolving. I still feel very much, um, a year post-divorce and I'm evolving. I'm discovering who I am and, um,

[00:45:44] um, learning to thrive, I'm learning to thrive, I guess, finding ways to, to thrive and to find those glimmers. Um, it, it really is a process and it's so different for each of us as adopted people.

[00:45:58] Yeah. Um, and yeah, it, it, you, you feel whole in those moments.

[00:46:08] Mm-hmm. Yeah. There are definitely moments when I feel whole, when I feel more integrated. Um, I think one of the, the other thing I would say that gets in the way of our healing is, is grief. Um, many of us experience this grief and loss, right? The ambiguous loss or the, um, uh,

[00:46:29] oh, I can't remember. I'm having a mind blank disenfranchise loss. All of that, I think is at the forefront of our stories. Um, and so learning how to get through that, um, can, can hinder our growth or hinder our ability to thrive.

[00:46:50] So it's really important that we find ways to, to cope with our grief. Um, so for me, um, even though I experienced a divorce and it was a healthy thing, it was, I moved in the right direction, but it's still loss. And so there are moments where I don't feel whole because I'm grieving, right? I'm grieving the lot, the things that I left behind. Um, and so that I think can get in the way.

[00:47:15] I had someone tell me the other day, um, that I had this victim mindset and I was like, oh, wow. Okay. Maybe I do. Maybe I am being a victim in my own situation here. And I just can't, can't see it. And then I think, I think one day my therapist said, oh, you're catastrophizing. And I'm like, well, no shit. Yeah. I know I'm catastrophizing, but that's just kind of where I'm at right now.

[00:47:38] You know? So yeah, there are moments where, where it's really things hit hard and they just kind of come up. And, um, I think in many ways we move with the trauma. We don't necessarily move through it. We just move with it. I go, I accept that I'm not where I want to be at this moment. I accept that I'm having a hard moment. I'm catastrophizing or whatever the hell I'm doing.

[00:48:03] And, um, and I'm okay with that. You know, like you were saying, lowering the bar, the expectation that I need to be healed by this point. Oh, you know, you need to get on with it. You need to get on with your life. Well, no, um, that's not where I'm at today in this moment. Other days. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, yeah, man, I've done, I've made so much progress. Look at where I am now, but then something will come in and it knocks me off of my feet.

[00:48:29] So yeah, it's just, it's, it's, it's really a process and it's okay.

[00:48:35] Yeah.

[00:48:36] Yeah.

[00:48:39] Is there anything else that you'd like to share before we wrap up? Cause that feels like a good place to stop to me.

[00:48:45] Yeah. No, I don't think so. Um, thanks for letting me talk about all of this stuff, the spirit and the soul and evolving and all of that. I appreciate it.

[00:48:56] Yeah.

[00:48:56] Yeah. What would you like to call this episode?

[00:49:01] What would I like to call it? Ooh, gosh, that's putting me on the spot. Um, hmm. I am the worst people at coming up with names and titles and all of that. I don't have that, um, that depth of creativity, I guess, but maybe, um, spirit living,

[00:49:28] spirit thriving, spirit living, something around spirit. Maybe it's funny because I started this, um, group empowerment drumming at my work, um, using the drum for, for therapy, for therapy, for healing. And it's called spirit rhythm.

[00:49:42] Um, so maybe spirit rhythm, maybe that would be, seems to be a theme of my life right now is, um, the rhythm of spirit.

[00:49:53] Yeah.

[00:50:00] Thanks, Simon.

[00:50:02] Thanks, MJ. Thanks listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care.

[00:50:07] Bye.