True? With Julie McGue

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Julie, Julie McGue. Looking forward to another conversation with you today Julie. Thanks for having me again. Yeah, so Julie's got a new book out right and what better reason, if we need any reason, to have another chat. If listeners have not heard her previous interview, then there'll be links to that in the show notes.

[00:00:29] Because it's got to be a while, has it? Three years maybe, since we did an interview together? We did one last year when my collection of essays came out, The Life of the Longing Matters, and then one right after Twice the Dotter, the first book came out in 2021. So my memory is escaping me at the ripe old age of 58 there, yeah.

[00:00:53] So what's new for you at the moment in terms of your own learnings and your own take on thriving and wellbeing and those sorts of things? What's fresh for you Julie? Well, I think writing this book, which is not a collection of essays, and it's not a search memoir.

[00:01:19] It is really a coming of age story about my twin sister and I growing up in a family that's made up of adoptees and biological children. So I set out to write this book because, you know, people that I have spoken to at book clubs or on podcasts were asking the question, what was it like to grow up as a twin, adopted with your twin? And what was it like to grow up as a twin? And what was it like in this family?

[00:01:49] So what was interesting to me, and anybody that's writing a memoir will find this interesting, I had to go back this time and do a timeline that stretched, you know, from the very beginning when my sister and I were adopted through another end point, which I decided it was when I had my first daughter.

[00:02:12] And in constructing that timeline, selecting the events to become the chapters of the book was something that was a lot of thought. But also in going back in time, I realized I needed to do a lot more fact checking on this book. The stories involved other people in my family, most particularly my parents and my siblings.

[00:02:41] And in doing that, I collaborated with my mom, my adoptive mom, and my twin sister to get some of the stories to the place where everybody was comfortable that the essence of the tale was correct. And that was super fun to collaborate with my mom and collaborate with my sister. I will say to you, I learned a lot.

[00:03:09] I learned a lot about what I didn't know, but also about myself in the process. Some family secrets came out and asking questions about some of the stories. And I encourage listeners to think about doing that themselves, constructing maybe a timeline for their own story or their own life, and how you would tell it to your next generation.

[00:03:39] And spilling it out and spilling it out and asking family members questions because, you know, we have this selective memory when we go back and think about our past. But how it intersects with our family adds another dimension to our family history. So those are the things I've been thinking about and learning about.

[00:04:02] And the reaction to the book has been really, really positive, both within my family and in the adoption community.

[00:04:12] So what was the, were there a few kind of standout changes where the truth that you've got to this time was different to how you'd seen events when you created the timeline itself? Was there much, was there much, was there much at odds with them?

[00:04:41] Was there a much of a change of the story after the conversation? Yeah, I would say, yes, there were some things that I decided weren't important. And how a writer does that is examine their themes. So I knew my themes were going to be about family building. My parents built their family with adoptees and biological children, which happened after the fact. So the three adoptees came first and then the biological kids came.

[00:05:10] So it was about family building. And it was also about my sister and I navigating this experience together in lockstep, every step of the way, which you and I've spoken about before. What a blessing that was to be adopted with my twin and raised with a full sibling.

[00:05:32] And I'm completely cognizant of how rare that is and grateful for Catholic Charities policy to keep twins together. And the book is also about loss. And, you know, you and I talked about this another time about loss is baked into the equation of adoption.

[00:05:52] Right. So not only does an adoptee lose their identity, especially if you're from the closed adoption era, like I was, we lose some sense of belonging to. But our adoptive parents, you know, my parents got had the right to raise biological children, but so many adoptive parents don't receive those rights because of infertility or what have you or age, whatever.

[00:06:19] And then the birth parents loss of not being able to raise their biological child. So all those things get factored in this new book, but also my parents and my siblings and I lost a sister. My parents lost a child when I was 16. And that particular set of circumstances is something that I write about in the book. She was a special needs child, which was another dimension to the family.

[00:06:49] And how families deal with loss can be devastating to a family and a relationship. And in examining the timeline that we were talking about, I realized, you know, how tough that was on my parents' marriage. But the strong set of family values that they had, their commitment to each other and their commitment to our family. There was the grieving period and we came out of it.

[00:07:19] And I think, you know, one of the reasons people like to read memoir is to read other people's stories and see how the characters in those books navigate tough things. And that's why I chose to write about this is, you know, we've got the adoption experience going on. We've got this special needs biological child. Then she passes away. And then it's time for me to build my own family.

[00:07:45] So the book kind of touches on a lot of themes, love and loss and sisterhood. But I think essentially what it's about is to have a strong family. It doesn't matter if it's biological kids or adopted kids.

[00:08:01] It's all about the tone, the family, the parents value system and what gets instilled in you to create, you know, some kind of benchmark for dealing with other adversity later in life. Thank you. I didn't ask the question right. So let me take another go. Let me give you a little example, something that came to me last year at some point. Right.

[00:08:30] So I gave away earlier that I'm 50, 58. Right. So this is last year. So I'm 57. Around 40 years before that. Right. So I'm 17 or 18 years old. I was, I was walking back. I was walking back from the pub with a friend of mine and we bumped into an ex-girlfriend of mine. And I don't need, well, a girlfriend is a massive overstatement.

[00:08:59] Like I dated her for a couple of weeks, a month maybe. And she was with her boyfriend, this big guy who's like six inches taller than me and about two foot wider. Right. And her mom. And as they walked towards me, that we were walking out of town, they were walking into town and she, she, she blanked me. Right. She ignored me.

[00:09:25] And I, and I said, Oh, don't say hello then Fiona. And, and thought no more of it. Right. Um, about two months to two minutes later, I turned around to, to chat to my friends that were behind me on the, on the pavement. And this, this fist arrived in my face. Right. And I, I went down cause this guy was huge.

[00:09:54] So the boyfriend had walked into town with this girl and the girl's mom, and then come back to get me. Right. And I, I went and I went down and he was starting to kick me on the floor. And the, one of the friends is with me, um, stopped him and said, he's had enough. He's, he's down. Right. And I had a huge, I had a huge black eye and, uh, and it was pretty, pretty tricky. Right.

[00:10:23] 40 years later, I heard a story from somebody else. Um, uh, something happened. And, and I saw a new truth. I saw that rather than this girl had, uh, she, she had ignored me because she knew that this bloke, this boy was the jealous type and an angry guy.

[00:10:52] And, and that's why she, that's why she blanked me because she didn't want to trigger to use a, uh, you know, like an emotive word. She didn't want to trigger her boyfriend. And, and then, so this was like a big, uh, well, a big, it's another insight, insight moment. So how I viewed the past changed.

[00:11:16] So my question, the question I was asking, and I didn't ask it very, uh, very succinctly was, um, have, have you seen in, in revisiting the past, the timelines, uh, for, for the new book? And, uh, have you seen new truths? Have you seen the world differently from the way that you used to see it? Well, yes.

[00:11:44] And I think that that's part of the story that I tell it. Whenever you tell a memoir, you're presenting a scene or an experience, and then you're giving your reflection or your takeaway. So when you, when you're writing a coming of age memoir, like I did, um, you're in that scene and that voice, uh, with that person at that age.

[00:12:04] So the teenager, the child experiencing things, and then the narrative voice pipes in and gives, uh, your takeaway from the perspective of the now narrator. So yes, that did happen. Um, for example, my mom had, uh, had just given birth to my youngest sister, the one that passes away.

[00:12:27] And I was injured at school, um, in, uh, a tryout for a sport and nobody answered the phone. Um, the gym teacher, teacher kept trying my mom. She's not interested in the phone. We lived almost a mile from school. So I had to walk home by myself injured. I was angry. I was upset. I felt abandoned, neglected, all of those things. Um, and if you've grown up in a big family, you realize how it is.

[00:12:56] Each time a child is added to the family, you get further and further away from the amount of tension that you used to enjoy. Anyway, so I had all this burning anger about it and got home and just let my mom have it. And of course she'd been up all night with this new baby. She was feeding the baby. She was tired. She'd been taking a nap, which is why she didn't, you know, answer the phone. Um, and, and in figuring out that timeline, I realized, you know, I was age appropriate, kind of a little brat.

[00:13:25] Um, was all about me. Um, and, but now as an adult, I realized my goodness, all of the challenges that she was facing as a new mother, again, and managing this household of six kids. Was exorbitant. I mean, we're parents now and grandparents, and we've realized all how hard that all was.

[00:13:48] So yes, to answer your question, I did have more realizations, um, about my mom and her parenting in writing the book. Yeah. So were they, were they, um, along that empathy, uh, theme then? Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:14:07] But also, um, I think, and you probably understand this when you're writing something about, you know, let's just say, um, learning to ride a bicycle or whatever. Um, and from a big family, we had to share a lot of things. Um, the adoptee lens always gets put on, you know, um, I was always grateful that my parents could afford some things for us.

[00:14:36] Um, but you're also, if you're honest with yourself, your head voice is telling you, you know, I wonder if this would have been the case in my birth family. If I had, you know, my, my birth parents had, had kept us and raised us as their own. There's always that little doubtful voice saying, what would my other life had been like compared to this one?

[00:15:02] And that's something that I put in play in this book is, um, inject that idea through childhood, adolescence and into college that, you know, there's, you're always wondering, um, you're always wanting to take, you know, turn the page and see. If this is really the life you're supposed to have, or is this the life you were meant to have? You know what I'm saying?

[00:15:29] Uh, the, the, the questioning, it all adds to the, it all adds to the questioning. And, and now, cause that, that questioning can be a kind of a matter of fact questioning, or it can be imbued is if I don't know if that's the right word. It can, or it can be more emotional questioning.

[00:15:53] And it's probably, I'm categorizing two things that, but it's, it's probably far more of a, a spectrum. Mm hmm. Right. Um, so. And the reason I bring it up is, you know, I had siblings that weren't adopted. So I don't believe that they ever questioned anything. This was the life they were born into. This was the life that they were meant to have.

[00:16:17] Whereas an adoptee, the questioning piece is, is this how my other parents would have parented us? Me? Um, would I have been happy? All of these unknown musing kind of things were going on as I was growing up. And that's the things that I, um, inject into this story. Yeah. With the overlay of this family building that was happening. Yeah.

[00:16:45] So how much emotional charge was there to those, uh, to those musings, those questionings? Um, I think as a kid, you don't focus on anything too long. So they were just musings thoughts that came in and out. And certainly I had the luxury of talking about any of those musings with my twin sister in the privacy of the room that we shared. So that was, that was a blessing.

[00:17:13] Um, we, you and I have talked before about adoptee fantasies. You know, we have these fantasies of what, because we can't know what our circumstances. I mean, I do know what they are now, but back then I couldn't know what my birth parents were about, where they were from, um, anything about them. And so we make up stories about that. Anytime we don't know, we make up stories to fill the gaps.

[00:17:38] And boy, um, the story we made up about our birth parents, him being a, a football player, high school football player, her being the head cheerleader. They had a little romance, but they wanted to go to college. And so they placed us for adoption. Couldn't have been further from the truth. Um, because as I point out in twice a daughter, my first memoir, she was 26 years old when she

[00:18:03] had my sister and I, and my birth father was a little bit younger, but they were very much adults, coworkers in a relationship. And so it was way more complicated than my little, uh, musing childhood fantasy was all about. So when you say fantasy, you're, you're, you're putting, um, a gloss, a gloss on it.

[00:18:30] Um, uh, and I, I also think of that, you know, that, um, that, um, uh, when we're faced with the unknown, we can, we can put a gloss on it or we can catch catastrophe, catastrophize it, like we could, and, and, and everything and everything in between and our imagination

[00:18:53] can run, can run right in a good way or, uh, in a, in a dark way. So it becomes a, a bit of a, uh, uh, a nightmare. Were there any changes that you saw that were for the better, those were for the worse as

[00:19:18] you process this new book, as you, uh, um, yes. Yes. Something, uh, really surprising came out in, uh, writing the chapters about my sister passing away. There were things that my parents hadn't shared with us about what my mom went through, taking my sister to the hospital and having her pass away and not be revived in the emergency room.

[00:19:47] Um, I'm pretty sure that had I not been writing this book and quizzing my mom, that some of the things that she shared with me would have gone to her grave with her and not come out. Um, when I shared what I learned, and I'm not going to give it away, um, so that people do feel compelled to pick up the story.

[00:20:10] Um, when I shared what I learned from my mom with my siblings, all of us kind of went, what? So, you know, I think when parents are parenting, there's adult information. So I give my mom a free pass on this adult information doesn't always as particularly back in the sixties and seventies. Um, you weren't privy to everything that was going on, but I think we were, we were also

[00:20:39] naive enough that, um, we didn't ask too many questions. We were in, in our own story, in our own head, trying to be teenagers. And so we weren't in that adult world to ask some of the adult questions that I was able to ask my mom. So yes, I did learn an awful lot. Um, and it's interesting. I've had, well, the book's been out a month now.

[00:21:05] So there's been quite a few folks that have read it and responded to me personally or written reviews or whatever. And when you're from the outside, the adopt adoption space, some of the things that I wrote about, I wrote about an aunt who was not particularly kind to my sister and my brother and I, um, probably because we were adopted into the family and not born into it.

[00:21:32] One can only suppose, but writing about those things is eye opening to people outside the adoption experience. They don't, they don't see, um, they don't see the inequality. Sometimes it happens in families. You've interviewed enough guests, Simon, that you probably have had angry adoptees that you've spoken to that were not treated the same as the biological kids.

[00:22:00] Um, I did not have that from my own parents, but there were relatives that treated us differently. Um, I think, um, um, I think highlighting that is a good thing for, for readers to see these kinds of things go on. Um, I think I, one of the reasons I wrote the book was also, uh, to abolish some of those myths about adoption. Um, there is great joy with adoption.

[00:22:30] My parents got an instant family. They got twice the family, um, when they adopted my sister and I, and then again, when they adopted my brother, they had what would be considered a full family of two girls and a boy. Uh, but with that came a lot, a lot of hard work. They waited a long time to have children. They didn't come easily. Um, and certainly, um, and certainly the struggles were not done.

[00:22:58] And I think when you highlight people's stories, you realize, oh, family building is hard work, regardless if it includes adoption. Um, you know, nowadays it includes IVF and surrogacy to build a family. It's not easy. It wasn't easy back then. It's not easy now. And so I think the family building piece of it is a universal theme that a lot of readers

[00:23:27] will resonate with, um, even if they're not adopted or know somebody that's adopted. So to circle back on our, what was our first, uh, interview? What, what does, what does thriving adoptees, what does that mean for you now, Julie? Um, I, I want to go back to talking about twice a daughter to answer that question.

[00:23:54] One of the things that I didn't realize, um, until I found both of my birth parents and some birth relatives, and I was in my early fifties at the time was how much I was needing that all along to have some connection to who I was before I was adopted. Um, and figuring that out, figuring out how to find them, um, and figuring out how to connect

[00:24:22] and have a relationship or not with some of them was troubling. And to get through that and have this self-knowledge to be in the place that I am now, I'm so glad I did all that. Um, and I, cause I think it does allow us to thrive, um, better and, uh, contribute to society. If we have all of our little secrets answered.

[00:24:52] Yeah. Is it, it seems to me it marks the, uh, the, whether it's an end, end to the secrets or the, uh, the end to, to the, to the question, the end, the, the search reveals the truth and it's one less thing for us to worry about, I guess. Right.

[00:25:17] I think our psyche, um, is really busy with that, whether it's conscious or unconscious. And until we resolve that, um, question, we are not completely who we need to be. So it's a revelation of ourselves. Yes. And some people can reconcile it, um, easily.

[00:25:46] I think it's easier for men to say, this is the life I was meant to have. They gave me up for adoption and that's their problem. I'm good. And I think that that does work for some folks for me. And what I was talking about in this book, twice the family was, I was always wondering, I was always musing and I needed to, to figure out what that was all about.

[00:26:13] And it took me until I was nearly 50 years old when the laws changed in the state of Illinois. And I had access to my original birth record, um, to be able to solve that question. And how sad for all of us that are adopted and want to have answers to questions that the laws in each individual state in the United States are different. We don't all have access to information. We're aging adults.

[00:26:41] We should have access to this information, particularly medical history, which is why my search started in the first place. Um, and I'll get on my high wagon here and say, there still can be, even if an adoptive parents were not in favor of contact with the birth parents. And even if the biological parents don't want contact with the adoptee, there should be some

[00:27:07] kind of vehicle, some kind of portal that an adoptee can go to and not disrupt everybody's privacy, but have access to important information about heredity, medical history, what have you. Um, we're just not there yet, but we have to keep talking about it and fighting for it because everybody should have access to any piece of information that concerns them. It should not be hidden away, um, at the detriment of our health and wellbeing.

[00:27:38] Taking you back a couple of minutes, you were alluding to a difference between, uh, between genders or what, what do you think is that difference? Um, my brother, my, uh, brother who's two years younger than I am, uh, was also adopted and I dragged him to a lot of post adoption support group meetings for two years.

[00:28:03] He sat next to me like, um, a listener listening to people's stories, who was fighting harder, what, what things were happening to adoptees and birth parents trying to connect with birth relatives. It took him two years to decide whether he wanted to go through that struggle or not. Most of the people in the support group meetings I was attending were women.

[00:28:30] Most of the birth parents were birth mothers trying to find their child. And most of the adoptees were women. So I don't know why males seem less inclined to do so. Um, but that is the case. Yeah. And far more women listen to this show than now. Interesting.

[00:28:57] So it's, uh, I mean, I have a theory, I have a theory on it and it's about family building and it, it, it, it's about, um, the, the differences in, you know, the, the different genders and their different approach to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to family building. Um, and perhaps I got, I must've got this from somewhere else.

[00:29:26] It's, it's, it's, it's to do with the, the maternal, maternal bond or the maternal drive, you know, and, uh, and, uh, and having that as a woman and seeing what could be stronger than that. Yeah. Well, yeah. And I think also to your, to your point as a mother, when I had my first child, which

[00:29:52] is how my book finishes and having my first child, oddly enough at 26, which was the same age as my birth mom had my sister and I, um, and my first child was a daughter too. So there were a lot of parallels. I remember looking at her and holding her and thinking, I don't know how my birth mom could have done that. Um, placed my sister and I for adoption, but she never did see us. She never did hold us.

[00:30:22] And I think the fact that she didn't do any of those things probably was what enabled her to do, make that really, really hard decision. Yeah. And you summed it up there in, in, in, uh, my, my theory, which was general, um, you summed it up in, in, in, uh, in a far more precise way. Yeah. That's what I'm getting at.

[00:30:47] You know, what, what could, how could they, how could she, um, was that a new thing for you on? Was, was that a new realization? No, um, I think I always thought each time my parents added a child to our family, my

[00:31:11] mother was just so joyous and pleased with this and full of love, holding this new baby and nurturing and whatever. So I saw all the love and felt it, uh, from, on my own regard. And so it was easy to, to see it and say, how could a mother do that? And this is my example of a mother and she's loving and kind and joyed overjoyed to be a mother.

[00:31:37] Um, how could somebody not want that experience? So it was the same. And we know, and we know what the answer is, right? The birth mothers back in the 1950s, 60s and seventies. If you were an Edwin mother, you were so shamed by society, disowned by your family, um, sent off to women's homes to take care of this problem that you put on the family.

[00:32:06] So it wasn't because she didn't want to be a mother. Society's concept of what a mother was, was not what she could be. You couldn't be a single woman and raise a child back in the 1950s and sixties. When a woman became pregnant back in that era, they left their job and they stayed home. That was the expectation.

[00:32:32] So, um, yeah, I think as adults, we understand the constraints back in that time period for a woman to keep a child, it would not have been possible. I get that, but why couldn't we know that? You know, why, why did that have to be yet another one of those closed adoption secrets? Um, very harmful.

[00:32:56] I think parental rights, both for the birth parent and the adoptive parent were always at the forefront in creating adoption law and, um, statutes. The adoptees rights and, uh, interests were down the, down the totem pole, you know, at the bottom. And I think all the noise, like we've talked about before that we're making now in this space.

[00:33:25] Um, I was reading that, uh, the state of Virginia is another state that's about to change their statutes and having some problems getting it through the legislature. It's such a battle. Um, and, and you ask yourself, why should it, why should it be such a battle to allow someone to understand their identity and figure out their own sense of belonging?

[00:33:48] It shouldn't be so complicated, but it's bureaucracies aren't meant to change, are they? You know, um, that, that question that came to you, you know, how could she, you know, when you give, just after you give birth to your first child at 26, was, was that bigger?

[00:34:13] Was, was it a bigger thing for you in that moment than it's, than it had been before? Was it, was it a bigger realization? Was it a bigger feeling? I think, I, I think I played with it more, the idea more as a soon to be parent than I did as a teenager. Um, certainly the idea was there and I, I, I did wonder about it, but I think I played with it more when I had that realization of what it felt like to be a mother and hold a child

[00:34:42] and realize all the factors that went into, uh, placing a child for adoption and what might have been going on. Yeah. What's becoming clearer and clearer to me is that these, these understandings, uh, just get deeper and deeper. That was, that's kind of what's behind my question. I, I used to think that, um, answers to questions were a yes or a no or a one or a zero.

[00:35:12] And like, yeah, like you had the insight, you know, that two plus two is four. And, and, and once you know that you don't forget it. And, and, but, but there, it seems to me that the, the deeper stuff, it just keeps on getting deeper, right? So if I think, if I put on a, if I, you, you, you talked about a kind of an adoptee lens,

[00:35:37] if, if I can, um, put that back on, you know, the little story that I'd shared about the, the guy hitting me and, and, and why, you know, what, what, what caused me to, to say, what caused me to say to this girl, right? Um, you don't even say hello then, you know, this, this, this kind of, I can, I can see

[00:36:02] that as a, uh, another, another piece to the, yeah, another supporting piece to the kind of rejection thing. Do you see what I mean? Another, that, that's another level. Sorry, that's another example of what I call the projection of rejection.

[00:36:30] So if we've got, we've got some rejection, we've got some insecurities going on about this. We've got some insecurities going on within our, within ourselves. Um, and so we kind of project rejection on the world outside. Yeah. Right. So I took it personally. Right. I, I, I took the, this, uh, I took this girls, uh, ignoring me as personal.

[00:36:59] I thought it was something to do with me. Right. And then I realized it's, it's nothing to do with me. It's nothing. It was all to do with her boyfriend. She was protecting you from him. She was projecting me from him. Right. So that, that's another kind of, uh, that's another example where my, my projection was incorrect.

[00:37:26] I projected, I, I, yeah, I projected rejection that wasn't there. I, I, I made up, I made up in my head that, that this was a rejection because of, uh, uh, an adoptee insecurity lens. Right. Right. And I think we have to be very careful about that and how we look at situations that are even happening now.

[00:37:54] Are we looking at it from, um, a rational mind or do we have that little lens? Lens. Um, that, uh, we can't help but have, but need to really work on separating, um, those feelings from really what's going on. Yeah. And, and the more we look at it, the, the more glimpses, the more we see how the lens is,

[00:38:23] uh, distorting our view. Then the deeper, then the, the, in this case, the, the, the deeper, the set, our, our, our felt sense of security grows. Right. Right. And I, I do think by talking about it today and also in reading stories like mine that share that adoptee lens, the people that love us, the people that we have in our lives.

[00:38:50] And it, it gives them a little bit better, um, insight in how we react to things and maybe how to manage us or manage our relationships with them, uh, to understand that this might be going on this, um, natural tendency to feel rejected, uh, to feel abandoned, maybe to have trust issues.

[00:39:15] All of those things are baked into the adoptee mindset and we have to work on it, but then the people that love and care for us also have to be cognizant that this might be going on. Yeah. Have you, uh, it's just gone, the guys, oh yeah. Uh, I, it was another author actually. I don't know if I've asked you about him. I haven't name checked him much recently.

[00:39:42] Um, have you ever come across an author called Sydney Banks? Have you come across him? I don't know of him. No. Yeah. So he was, uh, an adoptee. Um, he died, I don't know, 20 years or so ago. He was a Scottish welder, uh, that moved to, uh, Canada and he, so he was a blue collar guy, right?

[00:40:08] Uh, a welder working in a factory, a paper mill. I think it was on, um, Salt Spring Island, I think in British Columbia. Um, so he's an adoptee, he went, he went on a, he went on, he was having some marital issues. I think this was in the seventies and he, he was going for a weekend, like a weekends couples

[00:40:37] thing to try and patch things up or whatever, um, to help him navigate the difficulties that they were having helped them navigate the difficulties around him. And he was, uh, as part of this weekend, he was out for a little hike with, uh, another guy who was there and he was a therapist, a marriage therapist or something like that. And, uh, Sid Banks said, uh, something about insecure.

[00:41:08] And this guy said to him, you're not, uh, you're not insecure. You just think you are, Sid. And that triggered a, like a big, huge, like it's a, it's a fairly, as I say, it's a fairly

[00:41:27] small kind of in sequential, uh, comment from this guy, but it had a huge impact on, on, on, on, on, on Sid and, uh, Sid's, um, his whole life changed on, on that moment. And he, and he, his demeanor changed, his whole look changed, uh, to, to, to such an extent

[00:41:57] that when he went into work on Monday, they didn't actually recognize him. His, his whole outlook, uh, his whole outlook had changed. His face had changed, um, uh, you know, a huge weight had been lifted off his shoulders just on the basis, just on the basis of an insight he'd had into, to, uh, into the extent

[00:42:27] that our thoughts or our lens, to use your word that we've been, that you've been, um, using the, the, the lens word that you've been, you mentioned the whole, his whole world changed for him on, on, on, on that, on that basis, on that, on, on that insights.

[00:42:50] Uh, and you know, like 550 episodes into this, to this podcast, people say that time is the greatest, time is the greatest healer. Well, it's not, you know, there's lots of people still struggling, right? Lots of adoptees. If there's no, if there's no change over that time. Right.

[00:43:17] And I, and I think, um, whether you're like me, an adoptee that is writing for publication or an adoptee that's just writing in journals to heal the importance of getting help, whether it's professionally through post-adoption support groups, um, or writing in your journal. I mean, I think you do have to have some level of introspection, but somebody weighing in

[00:43:46] to moderate, um, and maybe give you a catchphrase, like you just said, um, for, um, for that individual that makes a difference in their life and how they view their experience to change it and be more positive going forward. So, um, that's always, it's always fun. So if, what do you think, what, what do you think changes if, if, if, if time isn't the

[00:44:13] greatest healer, what, what do you think is? Oh, I think, I think the introspection is important. Um, I, I seem to gravitate to writing my own stories for other people to get some meaning from them, but that is not the way for everybody. You can certainly write to heal on your own, um, and to have some kind of expert, whether it's a social, uh, social worker or a fellow adoptee that kind of gives you an insight that

[00:44:43] makes you change the way you look at, um, your adoption or any problem, um, certainly to, uh, to move on and move forward. Because, um, one of the things that I like to say as we get older, um, we're always becoming, we're not, we're not the stagnant person. We're changing in our relationships, but changing within society.

[00:45:08] And, um, we are always becoming, and it's important for us to figure out always how to get to the next step, um, either on our own or with the help of others in our, in our lives. Yeah. You, you said the word that, that I, that I believe is the biggest healer in there. I just wanted to dig it out to kind of underline it for the, for the listeners.

[00:45:36] You said the word insight, right? So I talk about this, like, you know, hanging around at the bus stop for insights, right? So, uh, journaling can create insights. Talking to a therapist can create insights. It's, um, somebody else can prompt insights with, with, within us. They can provoke insights that can catalyze insights.

[00:46:06] Listening to the podcast is about insights. Realizing that insights are, are the greatest healer. It is, it is, is huge, huge, huge. Well, it's, it's huge in my world in, in, in my mind, because everybody's looking for what, what drives change. Well, insights drive change. And that's kind of where I was going at the start of the conversation, where I was asking

[00:46:35] you, uh, in probably rather unwieldy language about your insights. So what would you say were your most, what would say the most impactful insights of writing this last book?

[00:46:57] Um, just being able to set the family timeline, create some family history for my children and grandchildren, but also kind of setting the, um, history right with my mom and some of the family secrets that hadn't come out. Um, I think there was a lot of healing that came out of my mom, uh, filling in the holes of a story.

[00:47:23] Um, so it was, uh, not an easy book to write, but certainly I think one of the, one of the most rewarding because it's provided backstory to twice a daughter. Um, and, uh, I think it, it provides a lot of family history that my family's happy to have. Yeah. And does any particular moment strike you from, from the process or, or afterwards, like you'd be talking about it?

[00:47:52] Um, you've been into, uh, I don't think I can add any more to than what we've already shared, uh, today. Um, I, I hope that people after listening to the podcast will pick up both books, twice a daughter and twice the family. Um, you can read them out of sequence. They meant to stand alone and anybody that's writing memoir, you know, it's also, um, indicative

[00:48:17] of the different kinds of books that you can write, whether it's the search memoir or the coming of age story. Um, uh, I think it's important to, uh, write your story or understand your own story as you move through adoption, uh, and family building, uh, in and of itself. Yeah. Thanks, Julie. Anything you want to ask me?

[00:48:43] Uh, no, I'm following you on social media, so I know what you're up to. And, um, I appreciate you having me back for the third time. Thanks, Julie. Thanks listeners. We'll speak to you very soon. Take care. Bye-bye. Great.