Turning Pain Into Purpose With Mallory Joest

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thrive Adopted Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Mallory Joest looking forward to our conversation today Mallory. Me too. Thanks for having me.

[00:00:13] You're welcome. Very welcome. So this word then healing, to what extent does that resonate with you Mallory?

[00:00:23] Definitely. I think it resonates with me deeply just because as adoptees we all carry trauma, adoption, it's rooted in separation, loss, grief and it can lead to feelings of abandonment as well as identity issues.

[00:00:39] So I think it's important to acknowledge these experiences as real and significant parts of our journey. So what does healing mean to you then? Obviously the acknowledgement as you say, what else does it mean to you healing?

[00:01:00] I think it involves definitely confronting difficult truths about our past and our identities. I think it means sitting in all the ways adoptions impacted us, including maybe and especially the painful parts.

[00:01:18] Because only then can we begin to process everything and kind of move forward. I think there's a lot of growth in healing. For me it's about transformation, turning pain into purpose and

[00:01:29] making the things that maybe I once thought were weaknesses about myself, turning those into strengths and asking myself what my experiences have taught me.

[00:01:41] I think it also offers a lot of opportunities for connectedness. I found that the more empathetic I am with myself, the more empathetic I am with others and by better understanding my own pain I've become more compassionate towards others,

[00:01:54] especially those that carry similar trauma or have similar backgrounds. So it's in that space that I found a deep sense of community and it's also given me the ability to better parent my daughter who's also adopted.

[00:02:11] I also don't think healing has a beginning or an end. I think it operates on a continuum and it's about continually seeking to understand, find acceptance and growth in your situation.

[00:02:24] And I also think that sometimes that might look like taking one step forward and three steps back and by that I just mean you might feel like you've reached the end of your healing journey only to discover that there's more stuff that you've got to work through.

[00:02:42] And sometimes that even means revisiting things you thought you'd already processed. So I don't think healing is linear, it's complex and it's an ongoing process.

[00:02:53] Yeah. I was at a conversation this morning with a fellow adoptee and we were talking about healing and I was thinking about my own stuff and stuff that I've been working with her.

[00:03:14] And so I've been on a grief course with this adoptee Pamela Karenova and it struck me that if I boil it down for myself, it's about how I see myself.

[00:03:38] Or how I see myself and my self-esteem, my self-worth. Those sorts of that thing seeing that one thing at infinite depth.

[00:03:58] So it's not about digging 20 holes, healing 20 things. It's about one healing that transition to self-worth for so many of us that have felt that we weren't loved and we were abandoned.

[00:04:29] But looking at that, the same thing. It's the same learning again and again and again and again. And so it's about depth rather than breadth. Yeah. I agree with that. So do any particular healing moments come to mind now?

[00:04:55] There are a lot actually. I think therapy has been a huge part of my journey. It's given me previously I'd never gone to therapy, but I feel like it's really given me a safe space to explore and understand my feelings when complex emotions arise.

[00:05:18] And I actually started this during my time as a foster mom. And so which kind of leads to becoming a foster and adoptive mom. It's been, it's also been a huge part of my healing journey because so my adoption story was positive.

[00:05:37] And so I feel like I entered all of that with my rose colored glasses on just completely unaware of the nuances and complexities involved. But I found empathy and forgiveness, I think in this space just watching my daughter's birth mother and go through her own struggles.

[00:05:56] I think it made me more empathetic towards birth mothers. It challenged my worldview really of it all and helped me find forgiveness for my own birth mother. Help me understand that maybe her decision wasn't so, wasn't as straightforward as what I once thought it was.

[00:06:12] And that it could have been filled with just as much chaos and pain as my own experience. I also think the adoptive community has also been a huge part of that both locally here in Indianapolis and online, which is how I met you through LinkedIn.

[00:06:34] Because I think a support network is just everything. Yeah, and all this has actually led me to start a nonprofit business. We offer trauma informed adoption, trauma informed education to foster and adoptive families.

[00:06:51] And so it's kind of given me a purpose in helping to advocate for others with similar backgrounds because all the workshops we offer they're based off feedback from the adoptee foster alum community.

[00:07:06] And then we partner with a therapist who specializes with working with the adoption constellation and she's the one that leads these workshops. Yeah, you've used the word empathy a couple of times. And I love the way that you first used it. You talked about self empathy.

[00:07:27] And I thought that was, I've never heard that phrase used before those two words put together. But it struck me as I'm getting a bit tingly in a good way. What does self empathy mean for you, man?

[00:07:44] So I mean, I guess an example would be, you know, I think especially like being an adoptee, you'd understand where I'm coming from. It's just, you know, we tend to judge ourselves a lot. You know, we struggle with things like self worth.

[00:08:02] And I think self empathy means, you know, looking at these things and treating yourself the same way you would if it were your daughter or something or a friend going through that situation.

[00:08:15] Yeah, interesting because we often hear that idea, don't we treat others how you in the general community, right? In the general, in the general public, people say, well, treat other people like you would be want to be treated yourself.

[00:08:35] But in this, you're reversing that. So treat yourself like we treat other people, which is a nice kind of 180 degrees on the norm, right? That sounds like.

[00:08:49] And I think, you know, when you can do that for yourself just in general, even, yeah, that transfers over, especially in this polarized world that we're living in right now. Yeah. Is it similar than to grace?

[00:09:05] Do you say self empathy is similar to grace or different? How would you see that? Yeah, I guess that I don't know. I could see where they're like interchangeable.

[00:09:19] I guess just like again, thinking through some examples. You know, I have people, I don't know. I have people especially here in the US right now.

[00:09:30] I feel like a lot of people, you know, it's just polarized. You're either over here on the left or you're over here on the right. There's not much leeway there like in the middle.

[00:09:40] And while I have, you know, my beliefs about certain things like I can still hold base for the perspectives of others because I think even when we profoundly disagree with someone,

[00:09:56] if we can look at them on a human level and recognize, you know, especially when we get to know them that, you know, these beliefs are the way that you feel about things. It comes from our own unique experiences. Yeah, there's a lot to learn there.

[00:10:12] Yeah. I guess self empathy, grace, lack of self judgment, giving ourselves a break. These all seem to be fitting in together and self. Yeah.

[00:10:40] It's like can it see ignoring the it's ignoring the self critic and we, you know, find myself mentioning this book a lot at the moment. This year of this book called No Bad Parts. I have it.

[00:10:57] No Bad Parts. So No Bad Parts is looking at ourselves as a set of parts. So maybe, you know, a two year old self or six year old self, like particular landmark moments, maybe where some big emotions were running for us.

[00:11:25] So looking at ourselves as a sum of different parts and not judging those parts. Right? So No Bad Parts, which means, so for me, it means grace and not judging myself for anger. So something came up last night about some fights I had at school, right?

[00:11:58] And the anger that had driven them and self empathy or grace means not giving myself a hard time about silly stuff that I did when I was a kid. You know? Yeah.

[00:12:26] I want to talk about empathy and birth mothers, because you mentioned that as a big driver of healing for you. What do you think, as you were describing it, I was thinking like empathy was almost like an antidote.

[00:12:56] Do you know what I mean? It was like, it was something that took away a poison. It was like a painkiller. Yeah. And I'm just wondering what it took away? What did empathy for birth mothers, having empathy for birth mothers or a particular birth mother?

[00:13:25] What did that add to your life or what did that take away from your life? What impact has empathy or does empathy continue to have on you?

[00:13:39] I think in general, it just makes me realize adoption, foster care, whatever it might be, it touches all different parts of the constellation. Of course, like the adoptee, the child at the center of it all.

[00:13:57] But yeah, I'm a human being and so up until that point, I was kind of looking at things more from just my own perspective. But yeah, I think that was probably one of the most difficult parts of my life just going through that process.

[00:14:12] Just because again, like I said, you're challenging your world view and what you thought your entire life about your background is being challenged. So I don't know in a way. I still wrestle with it, but it also gives me peace.

[00:14:27] Because when I was younger, I feel like you always have to especially being a transnational adoptee, you constantly have people asking about your background or do you eventually want to meet one of your birth parents?

[00:14:38] I feel like I just kind of came up with a generic answer because I didn't really want to think about it. Which is just like, yeah, she gave me up for adoption. This is my life for a reason.

[00:14:47] So here I am, no interest in looking into my background or potentially meeting her or anything. But yeah, I feel that I feel like it was kind of a coping mechanism.

[00:15:02] Like, you know, when someone asked you a question like that, it's just, yeah, it's so personal and like hard to think about. I just wasn't even like processing it if that makes sense.

[00:15:15] So I feel like the whole foster care journey for the first time, I think I actually like acknowledged those first time I really truly acknowledged that I even had a birth family.

[00:15:26] You know, and then you go through all these like it's like it was like going through all these different stages of grief as an adult. So yeah, for the first I mean initially I was super angry. You know, I was angry at her for the first time.

[00:15:45] I was angry at my daughter's birth mother. You know, and I yeah this is kind of adding in like an extra layer or something.

[00:15:55] But I'd also during that time probably a month after we had been our first our current foster or current adoptive daughter had been placed with us. I found out about a month and that I was pregnant.

[00:16:08] And so I ended up miscarrying which is a whole other thing as an adoptee. But yeah, that just added to my anger about the entire situation. You know, I'm looking back.

[00:16:18] I don't know if that's kind of one of those things too with a self empathy that I've had to like another way that like self empathy has come into the picture just because it's like you're going through all these things.

[00:16:30] You're processing all these things for the first time you're angry, you know and at the same time there's all this self loading going on because you're judging yourself because you know of the way that you're healing.

[00:16:40] And so yeah, it's just one of those things where I kind of had to go through it.

[00:16:45] But in the end like I found peace and that maybe you know the story that I told myself that my birth mother threw me away like I was some piece of trash you know.

[00:16:58] I just yeah I think especially like watching all this unfold as an adult with my my daughter. Yeah, it was just really powerful to be able to see that and realize that maybe her decision like I said wasn't as straightforward as what I thought which changes the way.

[00:17:20] Yeah, I think about myself. How does it change the way that you think about yourself?

[00:17:32] I don't know. I mean, I'm sure you understand as an adoptee is just you know the story is your mom didn't want you you know you're this piece of garbage she just threw you away like you're nothing.

[00:17:44] You know how that makes you feel as a person just like you're you're worthless like the person who created me didn't even want me you know and so just carrying that around.

[00:17:53] And I think regardless like with adoption as adoptees were always going to carry a little bit of that with us but yeah it just I think it would have changed especially like growing up I think it would have changed the way that I looked at myself.

[00:18:10] You know probably the way that I moved through my relationships. Just everything. Yeah, it's powerful. It's powerful.

[00:18:21] So to kind of sum up where I what you said in the last couple of minutes is it that the the empathy was almost like an antidote to the anger right so empathy was like having the you know the fire hose with water and it was like.

[00:18:51] It put it put out the fire of anger. Yeah, within you. Is that is that sound about. Sound about right. Yeah, I think so.

[00:19:04] And it's just like I said it's just it's one of those things too I feel like throughout this entire journey you know there's all kinds of examples I could go through like that.

[00:19:11] And it's just one of those things where you have to go through it you know all these like stages of grief all over again. You know to kind of get to that place of. Processing and healing. So kind of with the.

[00:19:29] Anger gone you use the word peace so the empathy kind of has helped you to more. Place of more peace and in that piece in that platform that place of peace you've been it's been easier for you to see your own self worth. Yeah.

[00:19:59] I had to think about that for a minute. I think that would mirror my journey. We get angry about being called angry don't we. Yeah, yeah, that's definitely a common thing. We get angry about being called angry.

[00:20:22] And I've actually seen I see this a lot with non adoptees as well actually. I can think of a few friends you know who some things happened and there's been some anger.

[00:20:38] And obviously I can relate to that because I go there too right hopefully less often than I used to do. Hopefully I overact a little less than I was frequently than I used to do.

[00:20:52] But if we kind of like something is in particular friends but if anybody suggests that they're angry. They get angry about it and now I can remember me doing this actually.

[00:21:15] We went into a restaurant and we were meeting some friends and we were first there friends were there. So the the greeter said I'll show you to table.

[00:21:29] And I wanted to have a drink at the bar right and I said well we'll just have a drink at the bar and she wouldn't she wouldn't let us.

[00:21:41] She wouldn't let me and I'm like add a little bit of a tantrum about it right so far and I four or five years ago. And then my wife picked up on the fact that I was having a tantrum you know when I was being angry.

[00:21:56] She called me out for being angry and I'm not angry. I was doing it. I was angry about being called angry. I was in denial about my about my anger. Somehow this is easier with trivial stuff like that right. We see ourselves perhaps easier with the trickier stuff.

[00:22:30] And we moved to awareness about it right as you said you were aware we are we going through life. Our paradigm is our paradigm and what makes us angry makes us angry. There's a there's a disconnect till something seems out out of kilter out of.

[00:22:58] Yeah, I don't know if you could agree with this thing that I just feel like yeah on this healing journey just as I kind of look back and go through all the things.

[00:23:12] Do you ever feel like you have an adoptee that you you carry this underlying anger with you just because of where we came from our situations. Yes, hopefully it hopefully doesn't weigh quite as much as it used to do. Yeah, exactly.

[00:23:38] Hopefully I don't overact as much as I used to do. Yeah, on anger too. I used to. So I've also kind of like figured this out just being more self aware and intentional about healing on this journey.

[00:23:59] Just kind of examining how I've responded to loss and relationships in the past and if I'm being honest like I've only started to kind of like crumbling.

[00:24:11] I've been able to correct these things over the past like couple few years, but just recognizing patterns like a roughly ending relationships and I think that stems a lot from my experiences in adoptee.

[00:24:26] But understanding these patterns has allowed me to kind of like break them I guess and repair and even like build better relationships just because you know when you come from a background, especially like mine where I don't know zip about my history, you know, and the things that I do know who knows if they're true or not.

[00:24:43] But yeah, when one of the most significant relationships in your life starts with just cutting ties, you know, or being severed. It makes a lot of sense to me. And again, not justifying like my behavior or the way that I've handled like prior relationships is just, again, like I said, it's something that I've come to appreciate as far as becoming more aware of it.

[00:25:09] And yeah, there's all kinds of room to for not just building the stronger relationships. But like I said, repairing ones. Yeah, I think I sometimes seen frustration. What what what what I define as frustration is somebody else's anger.

[00:25:34] Right, so as my volume button has gone down as my anger has hopefully been turned down a little bit my anger knob has been turned down a little bit and maybe so I've been triggered less violently.

[00:25:50] My my my explosions have been become quieter and become less frequent. Right. I've I've I've been out again something pops up where when what I think is frustration, somebody else would see that as anger. And I'm thinking well, you should have you should have known me before. Yeah.

[00:26:13] Yeah, I feel that making some progress. I'm talking about healing with fellow adoptees. I've spoken to 400 people for the podcast. I know what I'm doing on healing. Yeah. Oh, my God.

[00:26:34] And isn't it isn't a great one and we can bring a bit of laughter to trauma because it's such a dark subject. And we just turn on the light.

[00:26:47] Yeah, I think that's the beauty of being on this type of journey is just especially initially it's hard. You know, we already have like our own super harsh self critic.

[00:26:58] So when someone comes in, you know, and says like, oh, you know, you're angry like you're you're over the top right now or just anything that kind of goes, you know, that makes us feel a certain way.

[00:27:09] It's just a huge opportunity to kind of listen to ourselves and it's an opportunity for. So we'd be running okay or so far, ladies and gentlemen and Mallory maybe Mallory will come back and switch off my switch off my video. See if that.

[00:27:37] I can hear now she's the. Okay, I turned off mine too. I don't know what's going on. Cool. Yeah, just a little bit of a glitch might be my end as I said before I've had a couple of glitches this morning but nothing for a week.

[00:27:49] I thought the problem had solved itself but clearly. Um, can I can I go back to you said something about therapy and a safe safe space. Therapy being a safe space. I'm wondering how do you see how do you see safety and what's that?

[00:28:12] What does that what does that mean to you? What what impact has that had on your. On your healing. I just feel like sometimes there are certain conversations that maybe you need to have or maybe that you're willing to share with friends or family.

[00:28:28] And not that you want to filter that but it's just kind of like managing, you know, the first of all processing whatever the experience might be and then, you know, you have to attempt to understand it yourself before you can really relay that.

[00:28:44] I think that's a lot of what therapy is done for me if that makes sense. Yeah. I'm also thinking about what we talked about being criticized before, you know, as getting angry about being called angry.

[00:29:03] So, you know, in a therapist space that's a safe space isn't it? We're not we're not going to be criticized. We're not going to get criticized for our own emotions. Yeah, exactly.

[00:29:20] That's maybe that's why it feels safe right and maybe whilst we're listening to what the therapist has to say, maybe we're not listening to our own. In a critic. Yeah. Because we can only listen to one person at a time really. Exactly.

[00:29:46] And I think it's been helpful too just because once your therapist you know, I mean you can share things with your therapist that you're aware of about yourself but they're also going to pick up things about you with their training over time and I mean there have been exercises that I've

[00:30:01] had to go through to try to Yeah. She's she's gone again. It's fade it's faded again. And ladies and gentlemen, and So yeah, I'm just thinking of anger and safety. And I'm thinking about trauma reactions, you know the fight like freeze.

[00:30:33] And I'm thinking about safety like this in a safe environment with a therapist with a friend that's non judgmental with a fellow adoptee that knows what it's what it feels like. And interesting how how less likely anger is to raise its head there. Yeah.

[00:31:00] Can you hear me now Simon. I can hear you now yeah. I've just been I've just been shuntering on filling in filling in the dead space and I'm just thinking about anger and peace. Thinking about anger and peace. I like I like a juxtaposition.

[00:31:18] I'll you know use the word continuum earlier on you know I'm thinking of a continuum between anger and anger and peace. And And Instead of being angry about our anger, being at peace with our anger. Not resisting it not judging ourselves. What do you think?

[00:31:48] That that grace and lack of judgment. Self empathy like self empathy for our own emotions. Yeah, and our own actions.

[00:32:00] Yeah, it kind of makes me just think back to several examples actually but I think yeah when you're in a place where you're trying to heal and find self acceptance.

[00:32:18] And it also you know I feel like a lot of times like I've almost hit rewind back to certain scenarios or moments in my life that I didn't even fully understand at the time.

[00:32:32] You know, or maybe I was ashamed of my behavior or I thought it was weird or something and now I can I can look at myself with more compassion because I understand where it came from. One of the examples I'm thinking of is my wedding day.

[00:32:48] Actually written about this before but so. You know it's supposed to be this really just exciting like happy day and not that it wasn't it was just something hit me unexpectedly so you know my dad's walking me down the aisle as dads do.

[00:33:07] You know and once we reached the altar, you know and he's giving me away, you know, relinquishing his rights kind of you know it's like this whole symbolic act.

[00:33:20] Yeah I just started crying and luckily my back was to the crowd you know but here I am supposed to be like, you know there should be a really happy time for me and yeah I was just so filled with grief and loss in that moment.

[00:33:36] And it just took everything that I had not to just kind of like fall apart like tears are streaming and stuff. My body was convulsing because I'm trying to keep myself from crying.

[00:33:46] And yeah I never I never understood like you're that's so weird like you did that and you know in that moment I kind of judge myself for it.

[00:33:55] But then also in our reception, you know when everyone's given their speeches I actually gave one about family and how you know why so excited to become an a joke, become a jost officially.

[00:34:10] How sad I was that my name was no longer going to be chafing just because it's something that they've been given to me with you know everything that had been taken from me basically.

[00:34:21] So that was you know I just feel like the grief and loss they come out they come out at really unexpected times in a big way. And you know especially during big like transitional moments. Yeah.

[00:34:38] I've been thinking about this yesterday actually like when we think of a memory, we will often will picture a scene won't we? You pictured yourself at the church. I presume was it a church or register office or? Yes, yes it was.

[00:35:01] So you pictured yourself there right and you've got all you can remember you can you can remember it all and you can remember your dress and you can remember what was going on your dad next to you and you've got words to explain it all.

[00:35:21] And then it and then another sort of memory hits you but this is a memory that you haven't got words for. You don't have any pictures for all you've got is this or all you've got is these intense emotions. Yeah.

[00:35:49] You know I like so it's like a memory made of feelings rather than a memory made of a memory made of pictures and thoughts. Definitely.

[00:36:05] And that we can't we've got no thoughts to wrap around it have we we've got we've got no picture we've got what we don't know what. What went on and our minds can go into. Bodies can go into.

[00:36:28] Overdrive on this stuff as I was watching a cop show last night about a guy with PTSD and his description.

[00:36:41] So he had PTSD from his cop who saw his partner die you know a cop partner died when they were out at whatever it was on a call in the house they answered a call. And the the PTSD was rattling through the guy's body. Yeah.

[00:37:11] And it it reminds me of what you just said. Yeah it's like I like how you yeah I like how you put that. It's just you know especially as infants we don't have any conscious memories of the things that have occurred especially pre-adoption.

[00:37:33] But yeah our brains and our bodies definitely do. Yeah. And I think I think in that absence right in that vacuum. Something we can if we're creative we can create a really dark picture of that.

[00:37:57] I've never heard anybody create a light you know I've never heard anybody paint a bright picture of that. I've not I've never heard anybody any adoptee.

[00:38:10] I think we've got some kind of as humans we have a do it don't we have this kind of built in threat detection radar system kind of stuff like we've got there. Yeah. And so it's a natural bias towards the negative. Yeah.

[00:38:34] And and I'm and I'm thinking like I know that my brain can go into real hyperdrive painting that picture is really really dark.

[00:38:48] So let me give you an example right so we have me and my wife have had dots for a long time now and we are now on our third and fourth dot. Right. Our first two dogs unfortunately died.

[00:39:01] But remembering you know I've heard I've heard our dogs and probably two or three of them cry at night. You know when we bring them home from their mums and then eight weeks old. And I thought I wonder if I was like that.

[00:39:23] And my imagine imagination can go into a real hyper negative hyperdrive on that to paint a very very dark picture. Yeah. And and I'm basically I'm being swallowed pulled down a vortex. And that's what the mind can that's what I think my mind can do. Yeah.

[00:39:54] With with the with the lack of the lack of the pictures and lack of the language is what's happened. That's that's quite a heady thing right. Well I'm describing her is quite a heady thing. It's quite and the emotions are coming kind of on the back of that.

[00:40:12] But what you described at the church was far more visceral than that right. Yeah. I think it's interesting to you know you talk about your dogs and like I said I was in the thick of this during foster care days.

[00:40:28] And even you know seeing what my little one had to go through as an infant.

[00:40:34] You know and hearing her cry it kind of did the same thing to me is just you know it sends your body in your mind and overdrive and you can't even you can't even explain why and then it made me think back to.

[00:40:45] You know my own story from my adoption file and yeah there's just a dark place to be to actually like.

[00:40:55] Being a similar situation as an adult you know and think that oh like I was in a similar position to that when I came into the world to especially when you never really you know I never really thought about that deeply into it or even attempted to process all that.

[00:41:15] Prior to. I think on the back of that realisation and this conversation now then I might be a little bit more curious about my projection about my memory.

[00:41:41] I might take the triggers I might investigate the triggers I might I might there might be that split there might be a little split second of grace you know so people talk about this the difference between responding and reacting yeah.

[00:42:00] Yeah the gap between the gap between that you know that it's a it's a it's a tiny window isn't it the gap between responding reacting and responding. Yeah. And I think I might see. A little bit more of a gap there.

[00:42:23] But that doesn't that doesn't sound as great as the self empathy thing that you talked about. You know like this feels like if it feels like by you know you know fighting these emotions or trying to respond rather than to react.

[00:42:54] That feels really hard work compared to just letting them in. Yeah yeah. So much. I've heard about this subject you know about you know we talk about the numbers of adoptees in addiction and and how. You know we're looking to we're looking to to numb.

[00:43:21] We're looking to numb. And we're looking with with so we're so scared of those so scared of our emotions we're scared of our trauma. How do you see your strange question. I'll go with anyway how do you how do you see your your relationship with trauma.

[00:43:59] I'm still here I'm just thinking yeah I was thinking I don't know it's going to make sense I just you know I look at it as something that's part of me. Yeah.

[00:44:19] You know my experience and my experiences I mean we all have some form of trauma I think anyway. Yeah yeah but yeah just you know the things that have unfolded you know and I think they make you see the world.

[00:44:39] Are you are you more at peace with your trauma than used to be. Oh for sure. I think before I didn't even want to admit it was there or maybe I didn't even know it was there a little bit of both maybe well.

[00:44:54] It's it's I think it's a fascinating conundrum that whether we don't know it's there or or we were trying to block it out you know how on earth are we going to know it's a really it's a really tricky one.

[00:45:09] And I think so much of it is down to that you know the lack of words for it the lack of pictures of it.

[00:45:20] You know I've been using this I picked up this word you know we talked about it today I mentioned it you mentioned this tonight it's pre verbal trauma.

[00:45:30] And that helped me see some stuff that's that's why I'm doing some of the somatic experiencing that I'm doing to get to them the pre verbal to explore the pre verbal stuff. Yeah.

[00:45:47] I just I think that's I think it's I think it's more significant than I felt than I thought before I've I've I've I've looked at pre verbal and I've.

[00:46:05] I've kind of dismissed it as a you know quite rationally alright well it's just something I haven't got words for but yeah as you were telling me the experience. On your on your wedding day.

[00:46:21] It kind of brought this whole thing to life you know that we it's not just about no words for it it's it's no words for it it's no picture of it. Yeah. It's just just a scary blank. Yeah. It's it's 100% feeling isn't it.

[00:46:49] There's no words there's no words there's no picture. And I don't know if you'd agree with this I just feel like a lot of that to.

[00:46:58] Impacts the way we especially as adoptees handle loss like when I think about especially significant loss but any type of loss you know in the past I've kind of judged my myself for you know being a drama queen or whatever but I just yeah I think it hits us a lot harder than it does maybe the average person.

[00:47:22] Yeah. It's it's that. And it's touching the grief. What do people call it and is it what do they call it it's not absent grief it's very grief it's. And how does a word for it sorry. And yeah yeah it.

[00:47:53] There's a there's a word for it and I think it's to do with like unrecognized grief or yeah. Well I guess we could call it preverbal grief. Not it's preverbal it's preverbal grief it's nonverbal grief it's grief it's it's raw grief it's raw kiddie it's raw kiddie emotion.

[00:48:16] We know with no holding back with no. No holding back. Oh so here's here's the here's the thing right this this is another one that.

[00:48:30] This is another thing that I learned that's helped me scare myself now so you're but you know like we I had this talk about somebody saying. Well the babies are crying you know babies are crying you know an orphanage or in a in like in a in a.

[00:48:51] A natal neonatal unit or you know like a. Yeah row of a row of kids in in bassinet so what do you call and the the nurses one of the nurses saying well this is heartbreaking for me.

[00:49:11] When when when they stop crying we know that they're ready to be adopted. Yeah yeah I'm not just saying because you are they saying it because the baby learn that they're trying to cry.

[00:49:26] I don't know yeah well because will they will they you know are they saying because the adopted parents are going to aren't going to. I'm going to want the baby that's still crying. Yeah are they saying well now they have numbed themselves.

[00:49:48] They're sufficiently numb I was talking to a mum and this was nothing to do with adoption at all but she was talking to me about the fact that she had been told to feed the baby. Every four hours and ignore the babies crying.

[00:50:13] In between times and this was this this was seen as a good thing you know get them into a routine. Yeah just scenes totally and utterly inhumane. Yeah that's a polite word for it. Yeah yeah so I'm conscious of similar. Yeah sorry.

[00:50:36] No I was just going to say I've heard of similar stories especially you know babies and more of like an orphanage situation which is actually supposedly where I came from.

[00:50:48] But yeah that it's quiet when you go in a lot of times and that's because the baby learned that they're crying you know isn't doing anything for them. Like you said they just kind of shut down she's really sad especially as an infant.

[00:51:01] Yeah but can't my mind and your mind and your heart I'm sure we can we can wrap around these these spine chilling messengers and ideas and really go to town with them right.

[00:51:20] Yeah I could really I could you know I could write I could write a poem about that you know I could write a book I could I could just I could just get pulled down and do it. And down further into that darkness. Yeah absolutely.

[00:51:40] So we've been on for a while and we could chat forever. Is this anything do you want to tell anybody more about the nonprofit or is there anything else you'd like to share? So.

[00:51:55] I'm going to put a link to the website obviously in the show notes as we always do listen so you can check out what that was about. Yeah we have Facebook and Instagram too on social media. We have our next trauma informed workshop with our workshop partner tomorrow.

[00:52:17] So we're recording this podcast on the 25th of July so go and have a look at the events on Mallory's website.

[00:52:26] And if you're an Indian up foster parent you get a training hour for attending it's from noon to 1pm Eastern time and you can register on the website. And actually Simon will be doing one next month. Yeah.

[00:52:41] Go and have a look at the events on Mallory's website because we might miss the boat for that next one tomorrow. And I'm sure she'd be you'd be glad to be happy to hear from anybody on their stuff. Yeah absolutely.

[00:53:01] Thanks a lot listeners we're going to turn our video off. We're going to turn our video back on again just say goodbye that was hopefully trying to get a bit more bandwidth. Thank you listeners and thank you Mallory that's really big some big topics there.

[00:53:21] Thank you for sharing. We'll speak to you soon very soon listeners cheerio goodbye.