Understanding Ourselves With Sherrie Eldridge

[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Sherrie Eldridge. Looking forward to this conversation. It's been so long in the making and it's been so long since we've spoken together. I'm just really looking forward to this.

[00:00:20] Hello Simon, I have been looking forward to it too. It's been too long. But since we talked, oh my goodness, you have provided so much for the world of adoption. And you were telling me before we started how many podcast downloads there are and all that statistical stuff. It's so amazing. I'm so proud of you, my friend.

[00:00:50] Thank you. Thank you. And the guests, right? So we're on like a, we've interviewed about 450 people listeners, right? Obviously interviewed a few people twice. And we're on about, I don't know, 100,000 something downloads. So if you enjoy listening to the show, I would encourage you to share, tell other people about the show because we could really deal with some more downloads.

[00:01:18] You know, 100,000, you know, 100,000, it's just the tip of the iceberg, right? So that'd be great.

[00:01:23] Right. I will blast this out on social media.

[00:01:26] Cool.

[00:01:27] Yeah.

[00:01:27] So, thriving adoptees. What comes to mind when you hear that phrase, thriving adoptees, Sherrie?

[00:01:38] Well, when I hear those words, I think first about the title of your podcast, which is the primal wound, addressing the primal wound. And, you know, I think it all goes back to that. And I've done some studying on that, on the primal wound. It all goes back to the Garden of Eden.

[00:02:01] And, you know, we all enter this world broken and hurting. And how do we, how do we not only heal, but also thrive?

[00:02:18] And so for me, if I were to define a thriving adoptee, I would say it is one who is continuously doing the hard work of recovery while growing in self-awareness and humility.

[00:02:37] Yeah.

[00:03:07] You know, when we hate someone, that's a good sign that we need to heal. And so for me, that was, you know, diving into healing the broken relationship with my adoptive mother.

[00:03:24] You know, no matter, I mean, she was, she was a pretty good mom. She was actually a very good mom. Now I can look at her in a different perspective, but, you know, I had a lot of anger at her and other people.

[00:03:39] I mean, anger followed me around like a, like a leaky gas pipe. And so, so we have to continuously do the hard work and also grow in self-awareness and humility.

[00:03:54] Like how do others feel, you know, am I able to hear other people and to listen without getting triggered and without having to, you know, give my two cents and blah, blah, blah, blah, but just being, being together and healing.

[00:04:11] So the, so the, so the first one is one who is continuously doing the hard work of recovery while growing in self-awareness and humility.

[00:04:22] The second thing that I would say is anger triggers are losing their power in a thriving adoptee.

[00:04:32] Do we ever get over it? Totally. No, but.

[00:04:39] Anger loses its power.

[00:04:41] And we realize we have a choice and those, those triggers are calmed way, way down.

[00:04:49] And so we can, we can think about things logically and rationally and, and make a healthy choice and not out of impulse or whatever,

[00:05:01] which kind of accompanies reactive attachment disorder.

[00:05:05] I'm speaking from, from personal experience.

[00:05:09] Yeah.

[00:05:10] Yeah.

[00:05:10] So go ahead.

[00:05:13] Yeah.

[00:05:13] Um, can I ask you what, what led to your, the shift in the way that you perceive your mom, your adoptive mom?

[00:05:23] Well, I had a situation occur in my current day life.

[00:05:29] Um, with someone who was very influential over me.

[00:05:34] And by the way, it wasn't my husband.

[00:05:35] So people don't think that it was someone else.

[00:05:38] Um, and I was, I was, I was hurt in a deep way.

[00:05:43] And I was so angry, so angry that I thought, well, I'm either going to go to the stress center and get help.

[00:05:57] And then I realized I had this book called forgive and forget by Lewis Smeeds.

[00:06:07] And he talks about the power of forgiveness and how, and there's a Jewish philosopher that Hannah Arndt, A-R-E-N-D-T, who says that, you know, the backlash of painful memories can be revert, can only be reversed through the power of forgiveness.

[00:06:30] So here I was looking at pictures of my adoptive mom, you know, and feeling angry.

[00:06:36] This was happening in my current day life.

[00:06:39] And that led me to the place of just hovering down.

[00:06:46] Like three years ago, I hovered down.

[00:06:48] That's why we haven't talked, Simon, because I've been doing some really, really hard work.

[00:06:54] And, you know, I had, had a heart MRI and realized I had a lot of hate there.

[00:07:01] Who, me hate?

[00:07:03] I mean, I don't hate.

[00:07:04] I'm a very nice person, right?

[00:07:06] No, I'm not.

[00:07:07] Way deep down.

[00:07:09] I've got it.

[00:07:10] I, you know, I had some hate there that I had to deal with.

[00:07:13] Um, and so all those things have to be examined.

[00:07:17] And, you know, how, how, uh, also self-awareness, how in tune am I with myself?

[00:07:27] I wasn't in tune with myself.

[00:07:30] You know, I had let, and I think, well, I'll just speak for myself, but I think it's very common amongst adoptees to have low self-awareness because we've been so traumatized by that loss of the first family.

[00:07:46] And so we, we have little self-awareness and then we don't have a lot of awareness about how we affect other people.

[00:07:57] You know, so, so, you know, all that is part of the hard, hard work of working through, uh, you know, the, the deep loss that comes from the primal wound.

[00:08:12] Uh, we can heal, we can heal, but it's a process and we can see life in a new way.

[00:08:21] We can see the people we hated in the past in a new way and life in a new way.

[00:08:31] Let me give you an example.

[00:08:33] Bob and I just came back from a cross country trip to see our grandchildren to California.

[00:08:40] And usually when I get on the plane, I would have an adoptee fantasy.

[00:08:46] I would think, oh, well, well, maybe my, uh, birth father is on this flight, you know?

[00:08:54] So I'd see a really cool gentleman and I think, well, maybe he's the one, maybe he's my, my birth father.

[00:09:02] And so, um, you know, that would play out all the way on the trip.

[00:09:08] And maybe I'd imagine, or maybe I'd imagine him welcoming me at the new place.

[00:09:15] And I told my husband, I said, normally, you know, I'm having this fantasy about my birth family or my birth father.

[00:09:24] And he said, but it's gone, right?

[00:09:26] And I said, yeah, it's gone.

[00:09:31] It's gone.

[00:09:32] So, you know, I just am so happy at the place I'm at and, you know, still growing, you know, still work, always doing the hard work, but seeing life in a new way.

[00:09:46] And, and that can happen for, for almost every adoptee.

[00:09:51] I won't say every adoptee, but those that have been so terribly wounded in their brains, you know,

[00:09:58] and they can't, their brain development is not there.

[00:10:03] It's, you know, to expect them to thrive like that.

[00:10:09] I, I know of someone who has a son, who's an adopted son who is in permanently in the hospital.

[00:10:19] And, you know, they, the way they connect now is just a text and an emoji.

[00:10:28] But isn't it cool that he is able to do that?

[00:10:33] So he's doing what he can with the help of an incredible adoptive mom to, you know, make that connection, which we all need, right?

[00:10:44] We all need connection.

[00:10:46] So I heard this saying a while ago, it's never too, it's never too late to have a better childhood.

[00:10:56] Oh, I love that.

[00:11:00] So it's about, but it's about a shifting perspective.

[00:11:03] So what you're talking about is you're seeing your adoptive mom differently.

[00:11:11] So can, do you remember when, was there a specific moment when, when you, you had this realization,

[00:11:20] the shift in your perspective and where something happened and you saw your mom differently after that?

[00:11:30] Well, it came very gradually through the hard work.

[00:11:34] And what I did in researching the next book I'm doing is I interviewed 50 adoptive moms,

[00:11:41] because I didn't know how my mother might've felt in parenting a child with reactive attachment disorder.

[00:11:49] And I just felt so guilty, you know, I mean, they didn't, they didn't cause that.

[00:11:55] I mean, they were sharing true stories, but I just felt so guilty and I felt so sad, you know, that it had to be that way for my mom.

[00:12:03] But then, you know, gradually I began to see what she really did right.

[00:12:09] Um, you know, we had a very traumatic homecoming meeting.

[00:12:15] Um, and, and, and because of the trauma I had been through in an incubator and, and a very hard ride with my birth mother,

[00:12:29] um, uh, I was not able to receive her love.

[00:12:32] I mean, I'm sure she was just waiting, thinking, Oh my goodness, I get to hold my baby at last.

[00:12:38] I was the only, I mean, they had suffered infertility and I was the answer to their dreams.

[00:12:45] And my dad held me first and he said, Oh my gosh, she's so tiny.

[00:12:51] I can hold her in the palm of one hand and then I can see my mom, you know, waiting.

[00:12:58] And by the way, it should have been my mom first, but anyway, that's a different story.

[00:13:03] But anyway, when, when I was handed to my mom, I, you know, I rejected her in every way possible.

[00:13:10] My body stiffened.

[00:13:13] I cried as loud as I could.

[00:13:15] And so she, you know, the, her dream died, her dream died.

[00:13:23] And so my dream had died, her dream had died.

[00:13:28] And so there needed to be a time of coming together.

[00:13:31] And my mother is gone.

[00:13:33] My mother died.

[00:13:35] But I think, you know, what I have experienced is proof that an adoptive mother's love is never lost because, and this is brand new in the world of adoption.

[00:13:54] And this is brand new in the world of adoption.

[00:13:55] Because it's recorded in our brain.

[00:13:58] When, when someone else shows love to us, it's recorded in our brain.

[00:14:06] And I have loved.

[00:14:12] Just examining, you know, all the nuances.

[00:14:15] I still have a long way to go.

[00:14:18] I'm not a, I'm certainly not a therapist or anything.

[00:14:21] But, but to understand how our damaged brain, you know, can heal and can come around.

[00:14:29] And, you know, how, you know, we're made body, soul, and spirit.

[00:14:34] And there has to be a unity.

[00:14:36] There has to be an awareness, a full awareness of who we were created to be.

[00:14:44] We are incredible people.

[00:14:46] And so, to come to that awareness takes, you know, not only knowing what thriving is, but it's getting good help also.

[00:14:57] I've been working with a therapist who's a sidekick of Bessel van der Kolk.

[00:15:05] And she's been helping me a lot.

[00:15:08] And she would, even, you know, after all this healing, she would say, Sherry, you know, you're, you're giving yourself a bad rap.

[00:15:18] You're, you know, I mean, like, I would describe myself on that day of the homecoming.

[00:15:23] And a very, like, I was the problem.

[00:15:26] I wasn't the problem.

[00:15:31] The problem was that my, my mom was not prepared to parent a suffering child.

[00:15:40] Because back then, nobody talked about that profound wound, right?

[00:15:45] Nobody talked about it.

[00:15:47] Nobody prepared.

[00:15:48] My grandmother, who arranged my adoption, and who, who was the matron of the, the county home with orphans and abandoned children.

[00:16:03] She didn't even prepare her.

[00:16:06] So she didn't know.

[00:16:08] She didn't know how to, you know, say, oh, oh, baby, it's okay.

[00:16:13] Okay, I'll just, I'll hand you back to your new daddy.

[00:16:17] Or I'll, I'll hand you back to your grandma until, you know, until you feel a little bit more safe.

[00:16:24] And then, you know, then I'll put my, I'll put my finger on you.

[00:16:28] And then I'll, you know, but I think my mother probably ran for the back bedroom because she was so scared.

[00:16:35] Yeah.

[00:16:35] And I don't know what my dad did.

[00:16:36] But anyway, it was, it was traumatic for her.

[00:16:42] So, yeah, so, but, you know, I've come to see her in a new way.

[00:16:47] You know, I've come to look at her with compassion.

[00:16:51] Like she didn't, you know, she wasn't prepared.

[00:16:55] She didn't have the training.

[00:16:59] And I've come to look now more at myself with compassion.

[00:17:03] Like how much just to hurt a little baby?

[00:17:06] I was only five pounds.

[00:17:09] So, you know, our perspectives can change and it, it happens.

[00:17:15] And maybe once all, you know, for me, it was like a lot all at once.

[00:17:19] And I'm not saying it has to be that way for everybody, but for me, it was that way.

[00:17:24] And that was the only way I could get through that.

[00:17:27] I think I need to go to the stress center in the current day life.

[00:17:32] Working through all that stuff.

[00:17:35] Yeah.

[00:17:37] So this change happened after your adopted mum had died, yeah?

[00:17:44] Yeah.

[00:17:45] So change is possible.

[00:17:48] Change is possible because it's going on within us.

[00:17:53] That's right.

[00:17:55] And people say it takes two to tango, but it doesn't take two to change.

[00:18:01] Do you the person, the adopted mum?

[00:18:05] Well, yeah, right.

[00:18:06] I mean, it takes two.

[00:18:08] I mean, she planted seeds of love in me.

[00:18:12] And even though she's gone, because God, our creator, made us in a way that our brain would record all of that.

[00:18:22] It's like our brain is a secretary recording everything.

[00:18:25] Now, it's like a lost glove because, you know, because I'm so traumatized all during life with reactive attachment disorder.

[00:18:34] I will never, not never, I will not be able to find that lost glove.

[00:18:40] I won't even know there's a glove.

[00:18:43] But there will come a time, like I said, when I was ready to go to the stress center, when I will know that there's a lost glove.

[00:18:49] And then, you know, I'll be able to retrieve it when I'm ready.

[00:18:55] It doesn't depend on anybody else.

[00:18:58] It's when I'm ready.

[00:19:00] And so all of that is so amazing to me that God does that for us.

[00:19:06] That, you know, he's recorded it all in our brain.

[00:19:10] Isn't that the most awesome thing that he created us that way?

[00:19:15] And so, you know, yes, adoptees can heal that.

[00:19:20] Those memories are there and they can be recovered.

[00:19:25] But it has to be through, I believe anyway, it's my belief that it has to be through hard work.

[00:19:33] And so the hard work of forgiveness.

[00:19:38] So you've talked about self-awareness in a couple of different ways.

[00:19:48] So you talked about self-awareness as in awareness of our impact on others, I think was one of the ways.

[00:19:57] But, you know, this self word, this word self is used in so many different contexts.

[00:20:06] It's very confusing for everybody, whether you're adopted or not.

[00:20:11] And the identity challenge, the identity conundrum, the identity question, you know, is big for so many of us adoptees.

[00:20:22] Right. So what what do you mean by self?

[00:20:31] Well, that's a light question, Simon.

[00:20:34] That's let me think by self.

[00:20:38] I mean the person that God created me to be.

[00:20:45] In eternity past.

[00:20:47] So that is myself.

[00:20:51] I am the daughter of the Most High God.

[00:20:55] And before before conception and my conception was not a happy story.

[00:21:02] Before conception, before birth, before adoption day.

[00:21:09] I was already a self.

[00:21:13] Already a self that is loved.

[00:21:16] And it's taken me decades to understand that.

[00:21:21] But to realize that.

[00:21:24] That I am, you know, that my life is not a mistake.

[00:21:28] That God created me in eternity past.

[00:21:33] And I would encourage any adoptive foster moms that are listening to this to, you know, this is the way you can share this with your children.

[00:21:42] Because we all want, well, I shouldn't say we all, but I think many adoptees wonder if their lives are a mistake.

[00:21:49] Why did she give me up?

[00:21:50] Why did she give me away?

[00:21:52] Was I too small?

[00:21:53] Did I cry too long?

[00:21:54] Did I have an ugly mark on my body?

[00:21:56] Why?

[00:21:57] And so this is the answer for me.

[00:22:03] Is that I was conceived in eternity past by God himself.

[00:22:08] Then, you know, the rest happened.

[00:22:12] Okay.

[00:22:12] And you said that you are love as well.

[00:22:16] If I, unless I misheard you.

[00:22:18] I am deeply loved.

[00:22:21] Deeply loved.

[00:22:23] Oh, loved.

[00:22:24] Right?

[00:22:25] Yeah.

[00:22:25] No, I thought you said we are love.

[00:22:27] I thought you said we are love.

[00:22:29] No, we are deeply loved.

[00:22:31] Yeah.

[00:22:32] Well, some people would say we are, some people would say we are loved and we are loved as well.

[00:22:39] Some people.

[00:22:39] Well, we can be love.

[00:22:42] Yeah, we can be love to other people.

[00:22:44] We can, we can show love to other people that has been given to us.

[00:22:50] You know, we have to have it first inside.

[00:22:53] And then we can show love to other people.

[00:22:56] Yeah.

[00:22:57] Is that what you mean?

[00:22:59] Not quite.

[00:23:00] But I'll move on slightly.

[00:23:04] Okay.

[00:23:04] Because another version of identity, another definition of identity that I quite like is, is the Dick Schwartz, the Richard, Richard Schwartz, the internal family systems founder.

[00:23:23] So therapy guy.

[00:23:24] He talks about the uppercase S self.

[00:23:30] Oh.

[00:23:31] The uppercase S self.

[00:23:34] Uh-huh.

[00:23:34] Uh-huh.

[00:23:35] Um, and, and that's, that's our, that's our essence.

[00:23:40] And that's our, uh, that, that some people would call that, um, might call it spirit.

[00:23:47] Some people might call it consciousness.

[00:23:50] Some people might call it, um, love.

[00:23:54] It's, it's the, it's the part of us that is, well, he, he, he talks about, um,

[00:24:04] that the, the uppercase S self being the part of us that is untouched by.

[00:24:14] Uh-huh.

[00:24:15] By what happens to us and untouched by our, by our trauma.

[00:24:23] Oh, I like that.

[00:24:24] Untouched.

[00:24:25] Yeah.

[00:24:25] I mean, so it's the, the way we talk about it on the show and on the webinars that, uh,

[00:24:34] that I do is we talk about the fact that, you know, trauma hides us.

[00:24:42] Trauma hides the uppercase S self.

[00:24:45] Um, it, it, it, it conceals the uppercase S self.

[00:24:51] It, it, it, uh, eclipses the uppercase S self, but it doesn't harm, doesn't harm the self.

[00:24:59] So the uppercase S self is the unwoundable part of us.

[00:25:05] The wounds exist outside of that.

[00:25:09] So, um, this is the place beyond, beyond our psychology and beyond our psychology and before our psychology.

[00:25:24] Um, so.

[00:25:25] That's very interesting.

[00:25:27] Um, yeah.

[00:25:29] Trauma.

[00:25:31] The wounds are outside of us.

[00:25:34] Yeah.

[00:25:35] It's, it's, it's, it's, it's the, the, the wound, the wounds are in our psychology, but we are not our psychology.

[00:25:43] Oh, okay.

[00:25:45] That's an interesting, interesting, um, viewpoint.

[00:25:49] I guess, you know, um, I love the untouched by what happens.

[00:25:54] I mean, that's confidence, right.

[00:25:57] Um, and knowing who we are.

[00:25:59] And I think, um, self acceptance is very hard for us as adoptees, isn't it?

[00:26:09] Um, and.

[00:26:10] If we don't know, if we don't know who we are, it's about who we identify with.

[00:26:17] So, uh, Jude, uh, Jude Hung, who's, uh, we were, we were together on the webinar.

[00:26:24] She's been on the podcast, being a guest podcast.

[00:26:27] She talks about the, the trauma bound identity, right?

[00:26:31] So it's very, it's very difficult to love the trauma.

[00:26:36] It's very difficult to love our trauma bound identity.

[00:26:41] But it's, it's very, it's, it's, it's easy to love our essence.

[00:26:48] If our essence is love, if our uppercase self is love, then that's, that's easy to, to, to, to love.

[00:26:57] So Simon, would that include, um, with the self-awareness, would that include self-care?

[00:27:05] I mean, find it, would it, in a, in another way, would it be finding the little me?

[00:27:11] You know, finding who we really are?

[00:27:15] Yeah, well, if, I mean, Dick, Dick Schwartz, the Richard Schwartz guy would be talking about the different parts of us, uh, that, that, that, um, that correspond to different ages.

[00:27:31] Okay.

[00:27:32] So the, so the, the, his, his seminal book that we talk about is No Bad Parts.

[00:27:39] So it, it, it, it's loving, it's loving the, um, loving the lost part, loving the scared part, loving the angry part.

[00:27:50] So for me, right, if I think about me growing up, I can think of moments of anger.

[00:27:57] You talked about anger following you around.

[00:28:00] Right.

[00:28:01] It, it followed me around, uh, as well.

[00:28:05] How often did it break through?

[00:28:07] I, I, I don't know.

[00:28:08] Um, but then if, if we have, if we have care, if we self-care for our angry parts, if we, instead of trying to reject our anger, we have compassion for anger.

[00:28:28] Yes.

[00:28:29] I love that.

[00:28:30] And, and have grace, have grace for it.

[00:28:35] So instead of judging our anger and wishing that our feelings have been different, we're accepting, we're accepting of our frailties of the parts that we don't like.

[00:28:57] So we're bringing everybody into the party.

[00:29:00] Um, we're having a.

[00:29:01] I love that.

[00:29:02] Yes.

[00:29:03] Uh, what's the name of the book?

[00:29:06] No Bad Parts.

[00:29:08] Okay.

[00:29:08] I've got that circled.

[00:29:09] I'm going to, I'm going to read that.

[00:29:11] Yeah.

[00:29:12] Um, I love that not judging anger because, you know, when I think about myself as a little baby on that homecoming date, I was trying to, my anger and my cry, I was trying to communicate.

[00:29:27] It was my cry print.

[00:29:29] I was saying to my mother, this is my cry print.

[00:29:34] And so with that, does that sound like not judging anger to look at it that way?

[00:29:41] And, um, yeah.

[00:29:45] So how does that?

[00:29:46] How, how would that fit?

[00:29:47] I would, I would be, um, I would say that this is about grace.

[00:29:56] Mm-hmm.

[00:29:59] Understanding, uh, your, your homecoming.

[00:30:05] How old were you?

[00:30:06] How many days were you?

[00:30:08] 10 days.

[00:30:09] 10 days.

[00:30:09] So I would say this is about, you know, it's, it's in a child work.

[00:30:15] I mean, clearly that's what you're, you're, you're, you're doing.

[00:30:17] It's in a, in a child work.

[00:30:19] So it's about soothing the, the 10 day old little version of you.

[00:30:29] And I would say, I would say that that's what it's about.

[00:30:33] Um, I, I'm jumping completely.

[00:30:38] Sure.

[00:30:39] Jumping completely.

[00:30:40] I, I would be, I, I, I've said this a few times recently.

[00:30:47] The Bessel van der Kolk book, The Body Keeps the Score.

[00:30:51] Yeah.

[00:30:52] It only came out in 2014.

[00:30:54] Right.

[00:30:56] So the new knowledge, new knowledge helps us change our, helps change our mind.

[00:31:07] Right.

[00:31:08] We, we change.

[00:31:08] You talked about changing, changing a change perspective.

[00:31:14] Yes.

[00:31:15] About your mother, adopted mother, a change perspective.

[00:31:18] And that happened after she'd died.

[00:31:23] And that came with, on the back of new knowledge.

[00:31:28] That's right.

[00:31:29] It's, it's never, it's never too late to have a better childhood because we change our opinion

[00:31:39] on how we were raised.

[00:31:43] Yes, I totally agree.

[00:31:46] Yeah.

[00:31:46] We are, we are judging 20th century parenting on 21st century trauma knowledge.

[00:31:57] And it's just not fair of us to do that.

[00:32:02] Is it?

[00:32:03] It's not fair.

[00:32:04] How, how can you judge?

[00:32:07] Oh.

[00:32:08] Right.

[00:32:08] But we do.

[00:32:09] But we do.

[00:32:10] I don't like judging at all.

[00:32:12] I am totally into grace.

[00:32:13] And I believe that we are, that we are totally loved and forgiven through Jesus Christ.

[00:32:21] That's, that's my belief.

[00:32:22] And I know other people have other beliefs and I, I don't mean to be offensive, but that's

[00:32:29] where I come from.

[00:32:30] I see myself as totally loved and forgiven.

[00:32:34] And so that's the way I live.

[00:32:37] And yeah, we can't, we can't judge our emotions.

[00:32:42] I believe that God understands all that.

[00:32:45] You know, when I go to him often in prayer and I say, you know, I can't handle this.

[00:32:50] I can't handle this.

[00:32:52] God, please help me.

[00:32:54] And he always does.

[00:32:55] He always helps me.

[00:32:56] Gives me, you know, the, the strength that I need, the peace that I need.

[00:33:04] And, but yeah, I'm all about grace.

[00:33:08] Grace is it.

[00:33:11] It is.

[00:33:12] Yeah.

[00:33:13] So, um, I've got a bit of a tricky one here and, uh, I might be trying to, it might

[00:33:24] be a tricky question.

[00:33:25] It might be trying too much and I might be just, so I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm loving this, I'm

[00:33:35] loving this, uh, unwoundable uppercase S self that, that Dick Schwartz can, can talk

[00:33:44] about.

[00:33:45] I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm loving this essence of who we are before and beyond our psychology.

[00:33:53] Right.

[00:33:53] And, and the, and that, that unwoundable essence.

[00:33:59] Yeah.

[00:34:00] Yeah.

[00:34:01] And, and if it's, if it's unwoundable, right.

[00:34:06] If it, if it's unwoundable, then it's whole.

[00:34:10] Right.

[00:34:10] We, we are, we are whole, um, we are whole and our wholeness is hidden by our, by the trauma.

[00:34:21] Right.

[00:34:23] Um, how would.

[00:34:26] Hmm.

[00:34:26] Yeah.

[00:34:27] Yeah.

[00:34:28] Are you, is that.

[00:34:29] Yeah.

[00:34:29] I'm following you.

[00:34:31] You're following me.

[00:34:31] Yeah.

[00:34:32] Yeah.

[00:34:32] How does that kind of stack with the brokenness that you talked about earlier on?

[00:34:44] Um, well, I believe we are broken and it, like I said, it all, I've done some, some study

[00:34:53] on the word primal.

[00:34:54] It goes all the way back and we are wounded, um, because of the choices that we're in.

[00:35:05] Our original mother and father made.

[00:35:08] That's all passed on to us.

[00:35:11] And.

[00:35:13] I don't believe there's an unwoundable person.

[00:35:16] I mean, I, I believe that.

[00:35:19] I mean, wow, gosh, that's, that's a tough one.

[00:35:23] I believe.

[00:35:24] It is.

[00:35:25] Yeah.

[00:35:26] We're, we're, we're, there's a difference in our opinion.

[00:35:30] There's a difference.

[00:35:30] It might be the, it might be the definition, right?

[00:35:33] Yeah.

[00:35:33] Yeah.

[00:35:34] I'm talking about, uh, our essence being, uh, unwoundable.

[00:35:43] Uh, and yeah, you're, you're coming in from a different perspective.

[00:35:47] So let's, let's move on from that.

[00:35:49] That sounds like overconfidence to me.

[00:35:52] Um, and excuse me if that's, you know, offensive, but believing I'm unwoundable, um, in life.

[00:36:02] It's like, really?

[00:36:04] I mean, I have to, you know, protect myself.

[00:36:08] I have to set boundaries.

[00:36:09] I have to, you know, speak with care.

[00:36:15] Um, I don't believe that we are unwounded.

[00:36:20] I mean, uh, I won't be unwounded until I get to heaven.

[00:36:24] Okay.

[00:36:25] So it's a different, uh, yeah, it's, uh, I think it's the difference in our philosophies and perhaps it's also, uh, uh, my inability to express exactly what I'm talking about.

[00:36:41] Um, too.

[00:36:43] I think you're doing a great job.

[00:36:45] So let's go back to grace then.

[00:36:48] Okay.

[00:36:49] Uh, what, because we seem to be aligned.

[00:36:54] On that, I think.

[00:36:56] So what, what is grace for you?

[00:37:01] Well, the definition that I would say is if you take the words G-R-A-C-E, um, it means God's riches at Christ's expense.

[00:37:18] And so I am given riches.

[00:37:23] I've made, I am rich because of what Jesus did for me.

[00:37:29] And so, you know, those who believe that can experience that.

[00:37:33] Now you may want to try to, you know, this, this is my way that I'm, I have found grace, but I know there are other ways and I respect those ways.

[00:37:43] And I don't mean to, you know, offend anyone who, who, you know, believes another way.

[00:37:51] I mean, we, we need to come together on this.

[00:37:54] We need to talk about this and see, you know, well, I didn't know that.

[00:37:59] So, you know, like what you shared with me, the, uh, uh, the things are hidden by trauma and all that.

[00:38:07] I love all that.

[00:38:09] I love what you said.

[00:38:10] And, um, you know, not judging, not judging our anger.

[00:38:15] Right.

[00:38:16] Yeah.

[00:38:17] And, um, that we have no bad parts as your favorite author says.

[00:38:23] Um, yeah, we just, we need to talk.

[00:38:26] We need to talk and, um, and not, you know, we need to talk with self-awareness, right?

[00:38:33] Because, you know, otherwise we'll get upset and we'll think we've got to prove our point.

[00:38:39] But, you know, I, I believe God works in many different ways and he, you know, for, he worked

[00:38:45] in, in my life in this way, but he may work in another person's life in another way.

[00:38:52] You know, God can speak through rocks.

[00:38:54] He can speak through donkeys.

[00:38:56] You know, it just, you know, I don't, I don't pretend to have the answer.

[00:39:02] I'm just sharing where I'm at.

[00:39:05] And I think it's wonderful that, that we can sit, that you can challenge me here and

[00:39:11] that we can work together and still be dear fellow adoptees.

[00:39:15] You know, there's nothing better than fellow adoptee friends, friendship is there.

[00:39:21] Fellow adoptee friendship is incredible.

[00:39:23] It is.

[00:39:23] Yeah.

[00:39:24] That's how I would define grace.

[00:39:26] And, and my dad was a banker and he used to take me down to the, to the bank with him

[00:39:35] on Sundays.

[00:39:36] And he let me go into the vault and look at all the, you know, all the different places

[00:39:42] where millions of dollars are stored.

[00:39:45] And, and that's, that's what I have, you know, through Christ.

[00:39:50] I have riches.

[00:39:53] Like I can't even believe, I mean, life keeps getting better and better for me, richer and

[00:40:00] deeper.

[00:40:01] And, you know, I just, you know, one of my children, my adult children has just said to

[00:40:08] me and she's had a very hard life, but she said, mom, I feel seen by you.

[00:40:14] And we have different beliefs, but she said, I feel seen by you.

[00:40:19] And that's what we need to do for one another.

[00:40:21] I believe.

[00:40:22] Don't you think?

[00:40:23] Yeah.

[00:40:24] We, we need to be seen and we need to see.

[00:40:27] Right.

[00:40:28] And we need to share and we, we need to share our stuff.

[00:40:38] We need to share our insights and we need to agree to disagree on where we, we need to,

[00:40:49] what if politicians were like that too as well?

[00:40:52] Oh, no kidding.

[00:40:53] So let's skip off that, skip off.

[00:40:55] We've, we've gone, we've gone from religion.

[00:40:58] Now we're going to politics.

[00:40:59] Let's, I want to go back.

[00:41:01] I want to go back to the, to that, to the anger bit, because you talked about something

[00:41:08] at the start about, I think what you said was anger triggers losing their power.

[00:41:16] Is that, is that what you said?

[00:41:17] Yes.

[00:41:18] Yes.

[00:41:20] So what, what does that look like?

[00:41:23] How, how does, how has that happened?

[00:41:25] What have you learned along that way?

[00:41:28] What, what, what are you learning on that way?

[00:41:30] What are you seeing?

[00:41:33] Just share what you, what comes to you.

[00:41:38] Well, when my anger triggers began to come under control, I realized that I have a choice.

[00:41:47] I mean, it, what it, they didn't, my anger triggers used to just push me into some impulsive act

[00:41:59] that I'd be sorry for later.

[00:42:01] Either I'd hurt others or I'd make a fool of myself or whatever, you know?

[00:42:06] And I mean, just so strong that I could not control that at all.

[00:42:12] But in the healing process, those anger triggers diminished and I could begin to see,

[00:42:22] and we talked about self-awareness, you know, things logically and how others are perceiving

[00:42:31] things, how I am perceiving things.

[00:42:34] And I had no awareness of that before.

[00:42:38] So the anger issue or the anger triggers and, you know, a trigger, like, it's like you don't

[00:42:47] have any choice.

[00:42:49] But I think as we're healing that we have a choice and we can come back.

[00:42:56] And like you said, Simon, you know, come back to the inner child, you know, that little,

[00:43:02] that little child that was not understood, that was not, not, uh, the cry print wasn't read,

[00:43:10] the, you know, the softness wasn't given.

[00:43:12] The explanation about why, uh, we were adopted wasn't given.

[00:43:19] Um, we can, you know, learn to not be controlled by that.

[00:43:25] Um, for example, okay.

[00:43:27] So I did a lot of work on ancestry.com.

[00:43:32] My five fellow adoptee friends helped me, uh, find my birth father.

[00:43:38] And, you know, I had a reunion, uh, with my sister.

[00:43:42] She came here in Indianapolis to be with me for a week.

[00:43:48] Uh, and, you know, there, and I'm not judging, but I'm saying it was a temptation for me to

[00:43:57] just be totally obsessed with that.

[00:44:00] You know, like, I've got to know where I came from.

[00:44:03] I've got to know who my birth father was.

[00:44:05] I've gotten us, and, you know, when we were on vacation just last week, the old, my only

[00:44:13] reason for wanting to be into ancestry.com was to show it to my grandchildren so that I

[00:44:21] can pass that legacy onto them.

[00:44:24] Uh, and so the anger isn't there, the, you know, the compulsiveness isn't there, the drivenness.

[00:44:34] And so does that, does that example make sense to you?

[00:44:38] Yeah.

[00:44:39] Um, I, I just want to, I want to, I want to, I want to pick up on something, uh, that you

[00:44:47] just said in the last minute, uh, last, last word, uh, it's something that a mentor of mine

[00:44:52] once said in terms of being driven.

[00:44:55] He said, if, if you're driven, um, that then somebody else is driving.

[00:45:04] Oh, that's so good.

[00:45:06] Yeah.

[00:45:07] So he wouldn't put it, he wouldn't put it, this guy called Richard Wilkins, um, he, he

[00:45:14] wouldn't put it in, in a trauma context because that's not kind of his thing.

[00:45:18] But I would say if, if we're feeling driven, then trauma's driving.

[00:45:25] I would say trauma, trauma's driving.

[00:45:28] Yeah.

[00:45:29] Uh, and obviously if, if we, if we, if we're driven or if we're, if we're triggered, then

[00:45:36] then trauma's driving, uh, as well, isn't it?

[00:45:39] And, and, uh, something I heard about, you, you talked a lot about choice and we

[00:45:48] mentioned it a couple of times and again, um, this guy, Richard Wilkins would say that

[00:45:57] most of the time, most of us aren't choosing what we think, what we think about ourselves,

[00:46:04] what we think about others, what we feel, what we do.

[00:46:10] Um, and, and again, he, he wouldn't use the trauma word.

[00:46:16] He would talk about our, our script or our conditioning.

[00:46:21] He would use the word probably conditioning.

[00:46:24] I would say obviously in our context as adoptees, it would be that the trauma is making the choices.

[00:46:31] Um, so, so it's, uh, it's not, it's a, not a choice.

[00:46:37] It's not a choice made by our uppercase S self.

[00:46:42] It's a choice made by perhaps one of the parts.

[00:46:45] So there's one of the traumatized.

[00:46:48] Yes.

[00:46:49] I love that.

[00:46:50] So what an example be, um, like say feeling abandoned.

[00:46:56] Say we felt abandoned when we lost our first family.

[00:47:02] And so we tend to set that up, right?

[00:47:06] We, we bring that about and become victims.

[00:47:11] We can be.

[00:47:11] We do.

[00:47:13] We, we do.

[00:47:15] So I'll talk about myself here.

[00:47:18] Story that happened to me.

[00:47:20] So, uh, I was at a party a few years ago and, um, yeah, about 10 years ago.

[00:47:29] And it had been a long day.

[00:47:31] A lot of, it was a celebration.

[00:47:33] So that a lot of, a lot of champagne had been, and other drinks had been drunk.

[00:47:37] And, uh, I upset somebody.

[00:47:43] So my self-awareness went out of the window.

[00:47:46] Um, and I, uh, unintentionally upset somebody.

[00:47:51] I didn't, I was asking her what I thought was a question from a place of curiosity, but,

[00:47:56] uh, she was, she was triggered by it.

[00:48:00] Um, and then, uh, then the word, then, so this, this woman, um, got upset and then other

[00:48:08] people got upset that she was upset.

[00:48:11] Um, and I, I had a, I, you know, I, I had a big fear of, um, being ejected from the group,

[00:48:23] shall we say, in that moment.

[00:48:25] So I projected rejection.

[00:48:28] My, uh, my, uh, relinquished self came into, to, to, to play.

[00:48:37] Um, why, why, why can't, did, did they not realize that, uh, did they not realize this

[00:48:48] was an, an intentional on my part?

[00:48:50] Why are they, why have they rounded on me?

[00:48:54] And, and, and yeah, so that's, that's one from, uh, and, and that's, that work state kept

[00:49:04] me awake that night and then didn't dissipate for a while off the back of that.

[00:49:12] Yeah.

[00:49:13] Yeah.

[00:49:13] So that was 10 years ago, you said?

[00:49:16] Yeah, that was 10 years ago.

[00:49:18] Was that your, was that your Waterloo?

[00:49:22] Like, uh, the person?

[00:49:24] No, no, that was one in, I have these, I have these realizations.

[00:49:29] Often?

[00:49:30] Often, you know, like, I, I think we, we talk about coming out of the fog.

[00:49:36] I think coming out of the fog happens again and again and again.

[00:49:41] And, and, and, and we see, we've become more, uh, we've become, as we become more self-aware.

[00:49:51] Uh, so I came up with a metaphor for this yesterday and I've not tried it on anybody.

[00:49:57] So I'll ask you, I'll ask you, um, have you ever been in a, like in a, a canteen where

[00:50:05] they've got one of those, um, spring loaded plate dispensers?

[00:50:11] Do you see what I mean?

[00:50:12] So you get, you get, you get to, you're in a canteen.

[00:50:17] Okay.

[00:50:17] And you take a, you take a, there's a stack of plates and you, and you take a, you take

[00:50:23] the top plate off, right?

[00:50:25] And then this, this spring loaded stack sends, pushes up and it puts the next one to the

[00:50:34] top of the pile so that the next person can take it.

[00:50:37] Is that, that make any sense to you?

[00:50:40] Yes.

[00:50:41] Yeah.

[00:50:41] So each time it's, it's a new realization.

[00:50:45] It's a new insight.

[00:50:47] It's a, it's a new moment.

[00:50:49] It's a new moment where there's been a shifting perspective.

[00:50:54] Um, and, and another one in case that doesn't make any sense, you know, when, when, uh, so

[00:51:04] the, a big, a big freight ship, a big container ship pulls into, into port, right?

[00:51:11] And it's loaded with all these, it's loaded with all these containers, all this cargoes,

[00:51:17] right?

[00:51:17] And then they, they take one at a time that the crane takes, uh, the, the waters, the, the

[00:51:24] ship's really low in the water.

[00:51:26] Right.

[00:51:27] And then it takes each container gets taken off one at a time.

[00:51:32] And the, the, as the load gets lighter, more of the boat comes out of the water.

[00:51:40] So, oh, that's so good.

[00:51:41] I love that.

[00:51:42] So that's, we're seeing more of ourself as we're kind of becoming aware of our emotional

[00:51:50] baggage that we haven't seen.

[00:51:53] I love those illustrations.

[00:51:55] Yes.

[00:51:56] Can I use those in my book?

[00:51:57] Of course you can.

[00:51:59] Can I quote you?

[00:52:00] You can.

[00:52:01] Of course you can.

[00:52:02] Okay.

[00:52:03] So, um, you're welcome.

[00:52:06] Um, I wanted to ask you one, another, just go back to the anger thing a bit there.

[00:52:15] Like in terms of, do you, do you, do you remember, do you remember any moments where there was

[00:52:21] a shift there?

[00:52:22] Um, where, where, where, where you saw something differently about anger?

[00:52:32] Um, and I mean, are you seeing, are anger and grace, are they kind of opposites for you?

[00:52:40] Um, do they, do they?

[00:52:41] Are they opposites?

[00:52:45] Um, well, you know, I just pulled out a little note when you said that from my, from my desk

[00:52:51] here from Thanksgiving 2020.

[00:52:57] And I'd been going through a lot of old photos, uh, to share on social media.

[00:53:04] And I say my view of, of my past has changed and I can recognize the change physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

[00:53:15] It's like there was a dark filter over the lens of my camera, but now I can literally see in the darkness.

[00:53:25] The, I can see the darkness being removed.

[00:53:29] The condemnation, the guilt, and the shame are gone.

[00:53:34] Hallelujah.

[00:53:35] Huh?

[00:53:35] I didn't know I was going to share this, but I just.

[00:53:38] That was brilliant.

[00:53:39] I pulled it up from my desk.

[00:53:43] So if, if, if time isn't the greatest healer, what, what, what, what is, what is the healer

[00:53:51] that leads you to that, to that realization on Thanksgiving four years ago?

[00:53:57] The healer for me is always, always comes through God's word, the Bible.

[00:54:03] And, um, I, I believe that God speaks to me through the Bible.

[00:54:11] And, uh, um, you know, I, I, the, like the moment that my birth mother, I have, I have, I read

[00:54:22] the Bible and I ask for insights when I read the Bible.

[00:54:27] And when my, when my, uh, birth mother rejected me after our reunion, she was just screaming

[00:54:34] these horrible things at me.

[00:54:37] I'd been there for what seemed like a fairytale reunion.

[00:54:41] It started out that way.

[00:54:43] But when I came home, she just totally changed her mind and she was screaming at me.

[00:54:49] And as she was screaming at me into my consciousness, you know, how things can come into your consciousness

[00:54:57] and your spirit.

[00:54:58] It was these words from the Bible.

[00:55:02] Um, can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has born?

[00:55:12] Yes, she may, Sherry.

[00:55:14] This is God speaking, but I will never forget you.

[00:55:19] See, I have engraved your name on the palms of my hands and I will never, ever forget you.

[00:55:29] Wow.

[00:55:29] And so at that moment, we talked about love before, but I felt so loved.

[00:55:38] And for me, it comes through God's word, but then his spirit living within me that brings

[00:55:45] that all to mind.

[00:55:47] And I treasure, I mean, in the dark, I treasure the darkness because those are when the gems

[00:55:55] are given to me.

[00:55:56] And, um, and so that's just an example of, does that make sense to you?

[00:56:02] Yeah.

[00:56:04] Oh, yeah.

[00:56:06] Thanks for letting me share that.

[00:56:09] It's just, it's been, you know, those are the road posts for me and there's been several

[00:56:15] of them.

[00:56:16] Yeah.

[00:56:17] And, um.

[00:56:18] So I just, I want, I want to pick out something for people that.

[00:56:24] Yeah.

[00:56:24] That aren't religious, but that, however, does agree.

[00:56:32] Well, it's kind of does fit, I think, with what you, the essence of what you're saying,

[00:56:36] right?

[00:56:37] Yeah.

[00:56:37] So I believe that insights are the greatest healer.

[00:56:43] Mm-hmm.

[00:56:44] So time, time doesn't heal it, but if, if, if, if what does heal it, I believe it, it, it's

[00:56:51] insights.

[00:56:52] It's a, it's a shift in our perspective.

[00:56:54] It's a, and our heart, it's a, it's a, um, it's a light bulb moment.

[00:57:01] You know, it's an epiphany.

[00:57:04] It's an, right?

[00:57:06] Yeah.

[00:57:06] I believe the insights, right?

[00:57:08] So that, that we, we're both together with that.

[00:57:13] Yeah.

[00:57:13] But, um, your view as a, uh, as a Christian is that God gives you the insights and that's

[00:57:24] perhaps where we differ, shall we say?

[00:57:27] Mm-hmm.

[00:57:28] So it's where the insights come from.

[00:57:31] Yeah.

[00:57:32] But not the fact that insights help us heal.

[00:57:37] So we're different.

[00:57:38] I don't understand.

[00:57:40] So we're, so we.

[00:57:41] So I think we agree that insights help us heal.

[00:57:47] Uh-huh.

[00:57:48] It's just where we come from.

[00:57:50] But I, I, it's just that we differ on, on, on, on the source of those insights.

[00:57:55] So what would be the source of your insights?

[00:58:00] Great question.

[00:58:02] Um, out of the blue.

[00:58:13] They come out of the blue?

[00:58:15] The insights come out of the blue.

[00:58:18] Okay.

[00:58:19] Yeah.

[00:58:20] I don't, I, I haven't got a better answer to it than that.

[00:58:24] Yeah.

[00:58:24] And from psychology?

[00:58:26] Do they come from psychology?

[00:58:30] No.

[00:58:31] Oh, okay.

[00:58:32] Okay.

[00:58:34] Well, could it be, could it be that God gave you those insights?

[00:58:39] Sorry?

[00:58:40] Could it be that God gave you those insights?

[00:58:43] It could be.

[00:58:44] Yeah.

[00:58:45] Yeah.

[00:58:45] I think it was.

[00:58:46] I think it is.

[00:58:48] I think it is, Simon.

[00:58:52] I really do.

[00:58:58] So I, I've come to a, I, I, I, I've, I've got a better answer to the question.

[00:59:03] Where did they come from?

[00:59:03] And it is a great question.

[00:59:04] I, I would say they come from consciousness.

[00:59:08] Okay.

[00:59:09] Uh-huh.

[00:59:11] All right.

[00:59:14] And it's great that we can agree to disagree.

[00:59:17] Yeah, it is.

[00:59:18] It's wonderful.

[00:59:19] We can probably, I mean, some people will tune into me and some people won't and that's

[00:59:24] okay.

[00:59:24] I don't care.

[00:59:25] You know, I mean, we're all, we're all in this together.

[00:59:29] And, um, you know, I, I've received a lot from you this hour.

[00:59:37] Um, that I'm getting.

[00:59:39] Hmm?

[00:59:39] I die from you.

[00:59:40] Oh, thank you.

[00:59:43] So, uh, as always listeners, I'd encourage you to check out the show notes.

[00:59:49] Um, because it's got links to what Jerry's doing in the world of social and a, um, a

[00:59:57] website.

[00:59:58] And, um, we will speak to you all again very soon.

[01:00:02] Thank you for your, thank you for your wisdom over the last hour.

[01:00:07] It's been a joy.

[01:00:10] Thank you, Simon.

[01:00:11] Thank you.

[01:00:12] We'll speak to you again very soon.

[01:00:13] Take care.

[01:00:14] Bye-bye.