Unshackling From Trauma With Adoptee Suni Zmich

Does trauma sometimes keep you locked up?Listen in as transracial adoptee shares Suni powerful insights about breaking free from our trauma to find the freedom that sets us free.

Here's a link to Suni's previous interview https://thriving-adoptees.simplecast.com/episodes/lightbulb-moments-with-adoptee-suni-zmich

Here's a bit about Suni and her book:

After ignoring her own adoption story for 50 years, SUNI MILLER ZMICH journeyed alongside the interviewees as they described their stories, connecting on an elemental level, her unanticipated reward was she could clearly see herself in the mirror for the first time in her life. She is the mother of two daughters, a retired accounting and finance manager, and a transient ex-army brat poised for the next adventure. Practically empty nesters, she and her husband, Kurt, live in Minneapolis. For Now. When I first started Through the Lens of Ourselves,I only had a vague idea of what I wanted to accomplish.

I am an adoptee. After conducting many interviews, my personal journey melded with the interviewees. I learned that ALL members of the adoption triad yearn for familial connection. In listening to the birth mothers, I was surprised at my own reaction. For years, I had harbored resentment about my own birth parents and would not fully invest myself emotionally with my adoptive parents. But after allowing myself to see through the lens of the birth parents in my book, I felt safe enough to become closer to my adoptive parents.

My hope is that my book will bring peace to to those who are still traumatized by their adoption experience. I will forever be grateful to the individuals who were brave enough to share their stories with me. They nourished my soul and I hope their stories will feed the world.

Listening to the stories of others touched by adoption healed me.

My hope is that my book will also heal you.

You know that quiet voice that whispers to you when you first wake up in that fuzzy space between sleep and full consciousness - where your dreams and reality collide? I would sometimes hear those little nudges to examine my adoption.

Here's the link I to the Dragon story mentioned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7stT4OQoFGU

Here's links to her website with links to Amazon etc:

https://www.sunimillerzmich.com/

Here are links to her social media:

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100068780925549

https://www.instagram.com/sunimillerzmich/

Guests and the host are not (unless mentioned) licensed pscyho-therapists and speak from their own opinion only. Seek qualified advice if you need help.

[00:00.000 --> 00:06.320] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted [00:06.320 --> 00:12.080] to be joined by Sonny, Sonny Zmish, looking forward to our conversation again. Sonny's been [00:12.080 --> 00:17.000] on the podcast before, had a fantastic conversation and this is going to be a great one too so I'm [00:17.000 --> 00:25.680] looking forward to this. So, healing, what does healing mean to you, Sonny? [00:26.080 --> 00:39.200] Oh, thanks for asking Simon. So, I think what healing means for me is that when my trauma no longer [00:39.200 --> 00:50.160] affects my current day judgment and by effects I mean negatively affecting it and certainly our [00:50.240 --> 00:56.240] past is always going to be a part of our present and it will affect our judgment in [00:56.240 --> 01:02.640] positive ways hopefully if we learn from it but healing means that I can move forward without [01:02.640 --> 01:18.160] the shackles of my trauma. Beautiful. I love it all, I love it all and I'm very interested in the [01:18.160 --> 01:28.240] term judgment. So, what do you mean by judgment? Okay, by judgment I don't mean being judgy, [01:28.240 --> 01:37.360] right? So, that's not what I mean. Judgment, meeting my decision-making process. [01:37.920 --> 01:54.880] Okay, so do you remember the first time you had that thought? Did you have that thought before I asked [01:54.880 --> 02:03.200] you the question? No, before you asked the question I did not have that thought so you made me really [02:03.680 --> 02:09.600] think about it. That it just means to me it just means that I have better discernment [02:10.240 --> 02:17.680] because when I was younger and I was still trapped in my trauma I was certainly an idiot. [02:20.320 --> 02:26.320] So, I hope I'm less of an idiot these days because I do feel like my judgment is better [02:27.200 --> 02:37.760] and by judgment I mean having my eyes open to the needs of others or to perhaps their traumas [02:37.760 --> 02:48.560] or their motivations and maybe my definition might unfold compassion which I certainly didn't [02:48.560 --> 02:56.880] have as much of when I was younger. Yes. So, I think healing is not only an inward [02:58.400 --> 03:07.360] action but it's also it also extends to other people because you have more grace for things [03:07.360 --> 03:16.560] that happen with our fellow human beings. Yeah, I love that. So, I was talking to [03:17.520 --> 03:26.640] Tajil Uchiyama who's been on the show today. She's a filmmaker and we were talking about some [03:26.640 --> 03:36.160] ideas a couple of weeks ago and we're looking at a film and something that came to me is this [03:36.240 --> 03:48.240] idea that this central tenor of filmmaking is that it's called the heroes two journeys [03:51.920 --> 03:59.440] and how it relates to what you're just saying is the heroes two journeys are one is the outward [03:59.520 --> 04:10.880] journey and the other one is the inward journey, right? So, the the inner journal journey is what's [04:10.880 --> 04:18.080] going on for us internally and the outward journey is going on going what's going on with in our [04:18.080 --> 04:25.680] relationships with other people. So, we might be focused on our adopted parents, we might be focused [04:25.760 --> 04:33.200] on our biological parents, we might be focused on both and to look at those as [04:37.680 --> 04:44.880] you know like feelings are an inside job. Yeah, so we're looking at the energy with our feelings [04:45.440 --> 04:54.400] and but the world around us and so it's separating, discerning to use your word which I think is a [04:54.400 --> 05:00.160] great one, it's discerning you know the environment and other people and our kind of internal [05:00.800 --> 05:08.800] environment and if we can kind of separate those if we can separate those two then that's going to [05:09.600 --> 05:20.080] then hopefully we will be you know and I will be I as you are less you know I will be less of [05:20.080 --> 05:28.640] an idiot. I will call less stuff, I will call less stuff. So, let me give you an example that [05:28.640 --> 05:36.640] one talking about so I got a message from somebody a fellow adoptee and it became [05:37.520 --> 05:55.840] I had really messed up. I'd messed up and when I read that email in the past that email telling me [05:55.840 --> 06:02.880] that I'd messed up would have really upset me. How could I do that? How could I be so silly? [06:03.360 --> 06:12.000] Instead when I when the email landed in my inbox I could see the truth in what the person said, right? [06:12.000 --> 06:24.240] So, I know that I know that I need to change but the need for me to change isn't like a charged need [06:24.400 --> 06:35.120] do you know what I mean? I can be I'm I can look forward and hopefully be a better person [06:35.760 --> 06:40.960] without beating myself up about what I've done in the past with this particular person. [06:43.200 --> 06:48.400] So, for you know do you think healing means that you stop beating yourself up for things that you've [06:48.480 --> 06:58.240] done in the past? Yes. Okay. Yes. And I was also I would also have been triggered. [07:00.000 --> 07:04.720] So, when that email landed if that email landed the one that I landed the couple of days ago if [07:04.720 --> 07:10.400] that had landed say six months ago because I did a bit of some therapist up before before Christmas [07:11.200 --> 07:15.920] I think and that shifted a thing a few things for me. If that landed six months ago I would have [07:15.920 --> 07:21.040] actually felt you know like people go red in the face when they're embarrassed. Yes. [07:22.640 --> 07:33.920] When I make a mistake I kind of feel red all over. So, it's like it's a it's a flush of I don't know [07:34.560 --> 07:42.720] embarrassment pain shame beating myself up and something something shifted through this therapy [07:42.800 --> 07:50.240] word that that I've done and so I know I can I know I need to change my behavior whatever [07:50.880 --> 07:58.560] but I but I wasn't triggered by the email and I'm landing. What's specifically that's really [07:58.560 --> 08:05.280] interesting. I hope that's okay nice but what specifically helps you in therapy to make that [08:05.840 --> 08:13.600] subtle shift. Ah, okay. So, that's the interesting bit because I started the therapy [08:13.600 --> 08:21.760] looking at free verbal trauma. So, we did body work in the therapy session. There was a bit [08:21.760 --> 08:27.520] obviously there was some talking but it wasn't it wasn't like a talk therapy session. It was [08:28.480 --> 08:37.040] it was some mysterious ninja stuff. Oh wow. That happens through doing body work right. So, [08:38.880 --> 08:45.760] genomics it's it's pre-verbal it's non-verbal it's it's we and it's work about [08:47.760 --> 08:55.040] basically feeling pain anger frustration in my body. [08:55.760 --> 09:02.560] And and and where did the therapist say well where did we where did you start you know I'm [09:02.560 --> 09:09.040] looking at the pain in the chest I'm feeling in the chest and then I actually as she was doing [09:09.040 --> 09:15.760] it I actually felt the it was like a ball and it started in my chest and it ran down [09:16.560 --> 09:22.000] one arm to my hands and it ran down the other arm to my hands and it was to me that kind of [09:22.080 --> 09:29.280] signified if it signifies anything the need to do something. Yeah. Yeah, the need to do something. [09:29.280 --> 09:39.200] So, it's like maybe it's an avoidant an avoidant tactic. So, for example, like so we're [09:40.880 --> 09:45.520] I'm bored right. So, I think all right what am I going to do now to get I need to do something [09:45.520 --> 09:50.320] to get out of my boredom. That's what I felt that's what it felt to me in the therapy sessions [09:50.320 --> 09:57.680] when we're talking about. But it's missed a bit just up because you're working on pre-verbal trauma. [09:58.800 --> 10:09.840] Oh, I absolutely believe in that. The your body holds our bodies hold our memories before we were [10:09.840 --> 10:15.520] able to speak and there are certain things that trigger it. In fact, I was just writing about that [10:15.520 --> 10:22.560] yesterday my experience in Korea. Yeah, I definitely had pre-verbal memories that surfaced as I went [10:22.560 --> 10:29.360] through the markets and all the smells and sights and tastes. Everything just triggered [10:29.360 --> 10:36.240] something in me that I couldn't assign a specific memory to but I knew that I had been there before. [10:36.240 --> 10:41.120] So, these that what you're describing in your body is where you hold those memories because you [10:41.120 --> 10:50.320] don't have the language for it. Indeed. And to me, this the idea that I've had on the back of that [10:51.680 --> 11:03.360] was that we feel the past in the present. We feel and you mentioned something about that along [11:03.360 --> 11:10.880] those lines. You used past that present. We feel the past in the present. So, yeah, we feel our [11:10.880 --> 11:16.640] past in the present. And then you've got this you've got this separation. And I think [11:18.320 --> 11:25.200] you've got you've got a differentiation between I think it's implicit memory and explicit memory. [11:25.760 --> 11:32.560] So, the implicit memory is the stuff that you haven't got words for, right? You don't remember. [11:33.120 --> 11:38.720] You don't remember walking. You don't remember being sat in a pram being pushed around [11:39.280 --> 11:45.760] the market when you were a kid. In a pram, that means a stroller? A stroller, yeah. Oh, okay. Okay. [11:45.760 --> 11:52.320] Yep, yep. You don't remember that. So, it's not an explicit memory. It's an implicit memory. [11:52.320 --> 12:00.800] Some things being triggered when you're walking around the market in career, present day or whatever [12:00.800 --> 12:05.760] it was, then it's triggered an implicit memory. [12:09.520 --> 12:20.320] Yes, I that's fascinating. And I'm so pleased and happy for you that you were able to look at it [12:20.320 --> 12:27.680] and identify it, not run away from it, and that it's helped you move into a positive mindset. [12:29.120 --> 12:38.000] Yeah, thank you. And we're not as a human right. I don't think we're very good at [12:39.600 --> 12:52.000] spotting our own change. Like, we spend so much time in our own heads that the little voice [12:52.720 --> 12:58.000] is usually a negative one rather than a positive one. Yeah, sure. Candy, yep. [13:01.360 --> 13:06.880] So, the other idea I want to talk about from what you said, you talked about [13:07.760 --> 13:11.920] the shackles of your trauma. And you talked about [13:14.800 --> 13:20.960] breaking free. Oh, no, you talked about being trapped. That's one, isn't it? Trapped by our trauma. [13:20.960 --> 13:25.600] Now, there's a there's a metaphor. There's a [13:25.600 --> 13:31.200] literature of metaphor. Yeah, we love a bit of the literature, don't we? Trapped by our trauma [13:32.160 --> 13:40.000] and shackled to our trauma, so that we're kind of to use a different metaphor. The one that [13:40.000 --> 13:49.200] came to mind, as you were talking, I was thinking about the fact that we see the world through adoptees [13:50.240 --> 13:57.920] lenses. Yeah. You and I do, sure, because we're both in updates. Yes. And we've both got glasses, [13:57.920 --> 14:05.520] isn't fun enough. But yours are cooler than mine, right? So, when you think when you think about the [14:05.520 --> 14:14.000] judgment, when the judgment and not judging people, but decision making and things like that, if we are [14:14.960 --> 14:20.800] trapped, if we're trapped by our trauma, trapped in our trauma, if we're shackled to our trauma, [14:20.880 --> 14:34.480] then we view the world through a trauma lens, don't we? So, healing is ceasing to view others [14:35.600 --> 14:41.040] and the world through a trauma lens. So, it's almost like a diff. It's like, you know, like, [14:41.840 --> 14:49.920] you can't see. Are you a skier? Have you ever been snow skiing? Have you ever tried that? [14:50.560 --> 14:56.480] I have tried it. I am not proficient, not even close. But yes, I know what you're saying. [14:56.480 --> 15:03.120] You're not saying, did you, did you wear sunglasses or goggles when you were skiing? Do you remember [15:03.120 --> 15:10.880] or both? I wore sunglasses. Well, sunglasses, right? Okay. So, if you put a pair of yellow sunglasses [15:10.880 --> 15:21.360] on, right? You can't see white snow. You just see yellow snow. Yeah? Yes. Just see yellow snow. [15:21.360 --> 15:35.280] Because our lens, our lens is determining what we see. So, it's almost as if you're talking [15:35.280 --> 15:43.280] healing as taking the yellow sunglasses off when you're on the ski slope and seeing [15:45.600 --> 15:54.320] white snow. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Certainly, for me, [15:55.920 --> 16:02.960] healing started to happen when I looked at other angles. So, not just through the lens of [16:03.600 --> 16:14.560] the adopting, but through parents and birth parents. It also opened my eyes to the fact that everyone [16:14.560 --> 16:23.200] who approaches the adoption community or almost everyone comes to it with a little bit of [16:23.760 --> 16:33.600] shackled trauma themselves. And so, understanding that is really what helped me heal. So, for you, [16:33.600 --> 16:40.640] it was taking your yellow glasses off. For me, it was talking and listening to other people [16:40.640 --> 16:49.280] and hearing and really hearing their stories. Yeah. And that's, that was presumably during the [16:49.280 --> 16:54.720] process of writing your book or before you wrote the book, was it? Before they wrote the book. [16:55.280 --> 17:04.000] It was during the book writing process, I guess. Do any particular moments come to mind [17:05.360 --> 17:12.320] when you saw that for the first time? Or not the first time, but at a deeper lesson? Oh, for sure. The [17:12.960 --> 17:23.280] the most notable one for me was when I met my first birth mother. So, I didn't know that [17:24.480 --> 17:30.160] she was a birth mother when someone introduced me to her. So, when we commenced with the interview, [17:30.160 --> 17:34.160] I thought she was an adoptive mother. But obviously, you know, the first minute or two, [17:34.160 --> 17:40.400] I figured out, oh, but we kept on with the interview. And just her, oh gosh, [17:43.280 --> 17:50.640] just so emotional and so genuine and just a beautiful person. Just understanding that [17:51.920 --> 18:02.400] her trauma came before her daughter was even born. Just something about that story, understanding that [18:02.400 --> 18:08.560] the trauma didn't necessarily start with her daughter with her mother's circumstance. [18:10.480 --> 18:20.960] Just it brought me to tears. It just, and then seeking to subsequent birth parents [18:22.400 --> 18:28.080] helped me understand that there's more to the community than just adoptees. [18:28.960 --> 18:39.040] And so, not that I was glad that they were hurting, but the fact that I was not alone in my own [18:40.560 --> 18:48.320] hurt was what really helped me move forward. [18:49.200 --> 18:59.360] Was that, was that because there was an element of you seeing [19:03.840 --> 19:10.960] how your birth mother's trauma had impacted you while you were in [19:11.600 --> 19:16.080] in neutral was I'm embarking up the completely wrong tree there. [19:17.120 --> 19:20.560] Oh, well, that's another angle too. Certainly it had to have affected me. [19:21.600 --> 19:27.680] Because, you know, when you're, I'm a mother and I was pregnant twice and [19:29.200 --> 19:36.080] certainly your baby becomes a part of who you are. It's the symbiotic relationship when you're [19:36.080 --> 19:47.440] pregnant. And certainly when I was upset, I could feel my baby in utero. She was also upset. [19:48.480 --> 20:01.280] Or it just so you can't, there's no way that a baby can be born and taken and, you know, be [20:02.160 --> 20:09.920] surrendered for adoption. There's no way that that baby doesn't remember the time in utero. [20:10.800 --> 20:20.880] It's the implicit memory stuff again. Yes, there's absolutely no way that that won't affect a baby. [20:20.880 --> 20:34.000] And no one's, no, no one's expressed that quite as clearly to me as you just did. [20:36.800 --> 20:44.720] So I think what you said is if you're upset, your baby's upset. Is that what you said? Yes, I did. [20:44.720 --> 20:55.040] And so think about your birth mother. Yes, so yes, thank you for bringing back that question, [20:55.040 --> 21:01.520] my short term memory. These days escapes me when I, especially when I go off on a tangent. But yes, [21:01.520 --> 21:09.280] it did get me so speaking, thinking about my birth month. So in interviewing all of these birth [21:09.280 --> 21:19.360] parents, what ended up helping me heal was understanding and subsequently forgiving my birth [21:19.360 --> 21:31.280] mother. Because there's no way that she could have surrendered without any trauma on her own. [21:31.280 --> 21:43.840] And her trauma came first. Do you remember the moment when that kind of spontaneous forgiveness [21:43.840 --> 21:55.920] happened? Probably after I had time to reflect with this first birth mother's interview. Do you [21:55.920 --> 21:59.760] remember how that felt in the moment? Do you remember a specific moment around that? [22:01.280 --> 22:15.520] I don't know if it was a specific moment, but it was just trying to give a bit like maybe I'd been [22:15.520 --> 22:25.840] this overfilled balloon for my entire life. And then finally the knot was released and it just [22:26.800 --> 22:36.960] you know released all of the hurt and emotion and anger and you know just that amalgam of [22:38.160 --> 22:45.280] you just that quagmire of emotions I can't get that's all mixed up into your origin story just [22:45.280 --> 22:55.520] kind of released because I finally had understanding. And so the healing I think for me happens when [22:55.520 --> 23:03.920] you have understanding of someone else's life and their situation and their circumstance. [23:04.640 --> 23:14.160] And I have not met my birth mother and I don't actually think I will I've tried and that's a whole [23:14.160 --> 23:24.160] mother story went to Korea last year. But just understanding the what she must have felt [23:25.840 --> 23:31.040] helped me step forward. Yeah. [23:36.400 --> 23:40.560] I don't know whether do you realize the profundity of the stuff that you're sharing here? [23:40.560 --> 23:49.520] I do, but I have thought about this quite a bit. I've been [23:51.040 --> 23:57.280] quite a bit so I have examined this. Yes. You're bringing tears to my eyes I'm listening. [23:57.280 --> 24:01.520] Good one. Good ones. Good ones. Good ones. Yeah. [24:03.520 --> 24:09.840] Oh, well I've got some stuff into words, right? So, no. Listeners she's making a frown face. This [24:09.920 --> 24:20.240] is good stuff, right? You know, like sometimes I watch, you know, when I get that feeling often [24:20.240 --> 24:28.320] when I talk to, we've had a few birth mothers on there on the show now. And when I speak to birth [24:28.320 --> 24:39.760] mothers, when I watch birth mothers on Tally, it often makes me makes me cry because it takes me [24:39.760 --> 24:48.880] back to a moment very similar to the moment you had. When they, when they balloon first. [24:53.520 --> 25:02.240] And I was asking you about the moment because in my experience it has been, [25:02.480 --> 25:07.680] it's a thing that happens, healing is a thing that happens in the moment. [25:10.480 --> 25:15.360] It happens to tell me about your experience. I'm very curious, can you tell me about your [25:15.360 --> 25:22.080] experience? Well, yeah, I can, I'm hesitating slightly, but did I tell you about reading the [25:22.080 --> 25:27.520] letter from my birth mother? Yes. Yes. So, listeners have heard this before, sorry listeners, [25:27.520 --> 25:35.520] but it was that, right? So, I read the letter, I read the letter from Pat Patricia, my birth [25:35.520 --> 25:46.000] mother, and floods of tears came down my face. And they, they made me realize, well, they gave [25:46.000 --> 25:55.920] me the empathy, like you gave me the insight, like you gave the insight. And they, for me, they [25:58.400 --> 26:14.320] they, the insight shifted 40 seconds of the most profound pain I've ever felt. And I realize I've [26:14.320 --> 26:26.880] been wrong, and those 40 seconds. And you put it beautifully, you know, her, her trauma came [26:26.880 --> 26:35.040] before mine. That's kind of similar vibe to what I got. I also got the power imbalance, [26:35.040 --> 26:43.040] which was an interesting one. I felt the power imbalance between my birth mother, Pat, who was 22, [26:44.000 --> 26:50.880] and the social worker who was presumably older, but in a position of authority. [26:51.680 --> 27:02.240] I got that power imbalance, and I got kind of most of all, I got her desperation. [27:04.320 --> 27:08.240] I got my birth mother's desperation. I felt her desperation. [27:08.880 --> 27:19.840] And I felt there was no, I've been connected with her. I felt she and me were one. [27:22.480 --> 27:30.320] And it's, it's those moments that of insights that, you know, take your, take our mind blowing, [27:30.320 --> 27:37.920] literally mind blowing in a good way. They blow our mind, they blow our false beliefs out the [27:37.920 --> 27:47.840] water. And that's why I was, that's why I am so delighted that you could remember that, [27:48.640 --> 27:54.720] that stuff, because we're hoping that what's the podcast about it, you know, I'm getting tingly [27:54.720 --> 27:59.200] now, just seeing it. What we're trying to do, we're trying to catalyze some insights. [28:00.480 --> 28:06.320] We're trying to share our healing moments. Now I'm getting goosebumps all over. We're trying to, [28:06.320 --> 28:09.600] we're trying to share our insights in the hope that that catalyzes in touch. [28:10.880 --> 28:17.120] And, and we're going a deep, but there's no, there's no, it's an infinite depth [28:19.200 --> 28:22.480] thing that we're here. I agree. [28:30.320 --> 28:32.880] Do any other healing moments come to mind? [28:36.320 --> 28:55.600] When I went to Korea last August, my family and I went, there were moments, there were several [28:55.680 --> 29:09.680] moments that were both, it was somewhat of a mixture. So in America, as a minority, as a Korean, [29:11.120 --> 29:22.880] I'm very aware that most people around me are not Asian. And so being in Korea, stepping off the plane, [29:23.680 --> 29:33.440] just being in a sea of Asian people, in a city, and everyone, you know, I just blended in, except [29:33.440 --> 29:39.520] for my American clothes, obviously, but they knew I was American in that way. But the few times that [29:39.520 --> 29:47.440] I did have on outfits that were somewhat Korean, unless I opened my mouth, I felt like I belonged. [29:47.520 --> 29:55.040] So that was healing. And then, of course, then, there's a duality to it. So if I tried or a cup of [29:55.040 --> 30:04.640] coffee or something, something pretty normal, I also felt sad because I wasn't able to [30:06.800 --> 30:13.520] speak the language that I was supposed to speak. I mean, you know, and so I couldn't just [30:14.320 --> 30:21.680] have a late hearted conversation with anybody because I didn't have the language. So then I [30:21.680 --> 30:30.400] was reminded, okay, there's a duality to me. I'm very much American, but the Korean part of me is [30:30.400 --> 30:39.120] undeniable. So it was healing being in my country of origin in some ways, but it also brought up [30:40.080 --> 30:52.320] reminders that my situation is not unique because there are ethnic Korean adoptees, but unusual. [30:55.680 --> 31:00.880] What went on for you when I was thinking about their expectations? [31:01.200 --> 31:12.480] So you go into a shop, somebody, the person, well, you're going to a coffee shop, but go to a cafe. [31:12.480 --> 31:22.080] You walk to the, you walk to the till, and then, and the Korean person behind the till looks at you [31:22.880 --> 31:27.920] and expects you to talk Korean to her. Yes. And you talk to them. [31:27.920 --> 31:33.440] And then I open right. And well, no, I don't talk English. I did take some Korean lessons. So I [31:33.440 --> 31:40.160] speak like a toddler. I say Korean like a toddler. So I can order a coffee, but then if there's anything [31:40.160 --> 31:46.400] more to that, I can't. And obviously my accent is American. So oftentimes they would just switch over [31:46.400 --> 31:57.120] to English for me. So I couldn't get away with it if I had to speak. I did order a pair of shoes [31:57.120 --> 32:04.000] from a beautiful shoemaker. And he made them custom for me because I have very unusual size [32:04.000 --> 32:09.600] feet. And when I went to pick them up, a woman was outside taking a picture, trying to get a selfie [32:09.600 --> 32:16.640] with him because he's very famous in Korea. And so she looked at me and she just handed me her phone [32:16.640 --> 32:21.360] and I knew what she was saying. I didn't, you know, take a picture of us. So I did. And I handed [32:21.360 --> 32:27.920] a picture and it was a wordless transaction. So that was fun for me because she thought I [32:28.960 --> 32:38.720] was Korean Korean, not an adopted Korean. So that was helpful. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good day. [32:39.360 --> 32:46.480] But it doesn't sound like it that it jarred for you. It doesn't sound like it was a jarring [32:46.560 --> 32:54.720] experience when, yes, yes, you ordered the coffee and you can order the coffee because she [32:54.720 --> 33:01.280] know enough to order the coffee, but it sounds, it doesn't sound like there's a lot of charge to [33:01.280 --> 33:10.160] the frustration for you. Oh, well, I think it was more, it wasn't really, I wouldn't say it was [33:10.160 --> 33:19.280] frustrating. I think the adjective I might assign to it was maybe a melancholy or sadness or kind [33:19.280 --> 33:27.920] of a horrible longing because I knew I was there and it just made me sad that I couldn't. But at the [33:27.920 --> 33:38.560] same time, just being in the presence of my people of origin was very extremely happy for me. [33:39.280 --> 33:46.320] That brought joy and my life revolves around food. And so my digestive system that week was [33:46.320 --> 33:54.560] beautiful because of all of the Korean food agrees with me physically. And so that was just [33:56.480 --> 34:06.400] healing just in taking in the food from that was grown in the soil in Korea. I can have Korean food [34:06.400 --> 34:12.240] in America, but there's something a little different about it. But being in Korea and when [34:12.240 --> 34:21.440] we went to my hometown, where my orphanage was, very small, we went to a restaurant and the earthiness [34:22.080 --> 34:32.000] of the kimchi and the mushrooms was like none other than I had ever had. And that felt very healing [34:32.880 --> 34:38.560] to me. Have you heard the word taroa? No. [34:40.480 --> 34:47.360] So I don't know if I pronounced it, but particularly, it's a French word. So it's [34:47.360 --> 34:55.120] taroa, I can't say it, it's like, you know, when the word territory, think of the word territory, [34:55.120 --> 35:01.840] right? It's a bit like that. So winemakers talked about the taroa, which is basically [35:02.800 --> 35:10.480] the essence of the soil, right? And the climber. And it's the kind of the, it's the [35:10.480 --> 35:19.600] expactor of the vineyard. That's what I, that was the thing that came to me when you talked about [35:19.600 --> 35:25.440] the earthiness of it. And you know, and it tasted, it was the taste of home, wasn't it? It was the [35:25.440 --> 35:31.200] taste of home. It was the taroa of home. Absolutely it was. [35:34.480 --> 35:44.640] So we're into a like a multi sensual, we're into a multi sensual thing. We've moved way past [35:45.200 --> 35:54.800] the kind of verbal stuff. Oh, absolutely. It was, you know, I'm certain I probably tasted it as a [35:54.880 --> 36:02.720] baby or in, you know, in utero, even, you know, the kimchi flavors and absolutely. Yes. So not [36:02.720 --> 36:09.680] only do you feel the mother's notions, but you absolutely physically get the taste in your mouth [36:10.560 --> 36:18.640] as an infant too. It is the, it's the taste of home. It's like being home. [36:19.120 --> 36:24.320] It was being, it was like being home, but it was also [36:27.680 --> 36:35.600] not because I can't deny that America, you know, food culture is in me too. So it's like I, [36:36.960 --> 36:43.040] I originated there, but then I was carved out in America and shaped molded differently. So when [36:43.120 --> 36:49.440] I go back, it's just not quite right, but it is right, but it isn't. The duality of it's just, [36:49.440 --> 36:58.640] you know, runs parallel and there's just, you can't remove one. Yeah. It's both ways. It does. [37:00.080 --> 37:02.400] And, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of, [37:04.400 --> 37:09.040] there doesn't seem to be a lot of confusion there. You're not confused about it cutting both [37:09.040 --> 37:14.800] ways. You're kind of happy. You're happy. Happy issue content with the kind of both ways, [37:14.800 --> 37:20.560] apart from the dimension. I don't know that I am content. I mean, I, you know, talking about it, [37:20.560 --> 37:26.400] you're, you're hearing the happy side, right? So the happy side of fitting, but I don't know that [37:26.400 --> 37:34.560] overall I'm happy about it. It is very, it's a push pull thing. So depending on the day, [37:34.640 --> 37:39.840] some days I might be happier about it. Some days it seems very sad because I [37:41.360 --> 37:48.160] don't necessarily have a way to fit in either culture. So lately I've been [37:48.960 --> 37:56.240] communing with other Korean adoptees and there's some, there's a comfort level that we [37:56.960 --> 38:02.880] have with each other, even though we don't know each other very well, because it's that [38:03.200 --> 38:18.640] same displacement that we all have. What's the word? Chastra. Chastra. Right? Right. So it, [38:18.640 --> 38:25.840] and we don't have to try to explain it to anybody. It is just something that's understood. And so [38:25.840 --> 38:31.920] we can hang out and we don't have to have deep conversations, but we can hang out and have a meal [38:31.920 --> 38:45.600] or just be and don't have to get into a deep conversation necessarily unless we want to. But [38:46.160 --> 38:55.280] there's already that understanding. It's unsaid, isn't it? It's an unsaid bond. Yes. Yeah. [38:55.280 --> 38:59.840] Yeah. I came up with this idea this morning, which was [39:02.640 --> 39:15.360] at peace with the war. Yeah. So I can't think of it. [39:15.360 --> 39:29.680] I can't think of an example. So sometimes I've got, you know, I've got two voices in my head. [39:31.520 --> 39:44.080] So it's not very civil war. One is saying, all right, so I'd give you something. All right. One would be [39:46.320 --> 39:56.320] Simon, you're still not making enough of a difference. And you're not making a living out of making a [39:56.320 --> 40:06.720] living out and making a difference. And that, and you should have done. Right. So that's one thing. [40:06.720 --> 40:14.320] And then I would say that another part would be you say, it doesn't matter, Simon. None of that, [40:14.960 --> 40:21.280] matters. And forget about that. You've got past that, don't worry about it. Right. So there's a war [40:21.280 --> 40:34.560] going on in my head between these two. And then I get upset about that war. Right. But being at [40:34.560 --> 40:41.600] peace with the war is saying, well, one side of your brain is always going to say that, Simon. [40:41.600 --> 40:51.840] Another side of the other side of your brain is going to say the other thing. And that's just the [40:51.840 --> 41:00.640] way it is. So these two thoughts are never going to reconcile. They're never going to come to peace. [41:00.640 --> 41:04.800] They're always going to be at war. But you can be at peace with the war. [41:04.800 --> 41:11.600] And by at peace, you don't mean peaceful, you just mean acceptance, right? [41:11.600 --> 41:13.040] I mean, yeah, I mean, [41:15.040 --> 41:19.120] accept. Well, yeah, I do mean peace. I don't know how you should mean this. Okay. [41:19.120 --> 41:29.760] At one level up. So yeah, it's one level up from acceptance, probably a couple of levels up from [41:29.760 --> 41:37.520] acceptance. Okay. Why don't think I'm there? I think I'm certainly, I recognize the war. [41:38.080 --> 41:47.200] And I accept that there is a war because I don't have a choice. But for me, it's delving into both [41:47.200 --> 42:00.640] sides. And it doesn't mean I have to like it. So there, I sound like a toddler, I guess. [42:03.600 --> 42:08.240] But I do, I do understand, and I wrap my brain around that there's always going to be [42:08.960 --> 42:13.440] two sides to me. Yeah, there's going to be the American side and there's going to be the Korean [42:13.440 --> 42:21.840] side. And just I think it's going to be a lifelong journey for me trying to put the two pieces [42:21.840 --> 42:26.960] together or or bridging it. So that I think that's probably where the difference is. I don't know [42:26.960 --> 42:35.040] that I'll ever be at peace about it. But I certainly accept that that's my reality. [42:35.040 --> 42:40.080] But and a lot of people that I've interviewed have had a lot less peace. [42:42.800 --> 42:49.520] Sure. I mean, sure, you're going to get you can fight it or you can look at it and examine it. And so [42:49.520 --> 42:54.640] I think in the examination for me is where the healing comes. I mean, that's to bring it full circle. [42:55.840 --> 43:02.880] You want to talk about healing. But for me, healing is comes along in the examination [43:03.760 --> 43:11.360] of my adoption. Yeah. And the other thing I want to say is I'm not always at peace with the world. [43:11.360 --> 43:20.880] Oh, okay. It's not it's not a steady state. It's not a yeah, it's not a steady state. It's not, [43:20.880 --> 43:30.720] it's not constant. It's not like we've had, you know, it's not like it's over and done. [43:31.600 --> 43:35.600] Okay, got it. It comes back. Yeah. So you're human. [43:37.920 --> 43:43.520] I'm not saying it. Yeah. So my, this is the thing. This is the thing really. [43:45.840 --> 43:55.840] Yeah, that is human. If we are, if we're okay with not, I've said this. If we're okay with [43:56.640 --> 44:02.000] not feeling okay, we're always okay. Yeah. Okay. I'll buy that. [44:08.480 --> 44:09.840] Good. Because we're out of time. [44:12.800 --> 44:17.520] Well, it was lovely to see you again, Simon. Thank you so much for having me. [44:17.520 --> 44:27.600] You're welcome. It was lovely. Love the conversation. Yeah. So listen, there's a link [44:27.600 --> 44:38.000] in the show notes too. Sony's last episode and book, which is great. Book is all about [44:38.640 --> 44:46.800] experiences of other Korean adoptees and adoptees. All adoptees, domestic and international. [44:46.800 --> 44:54.400] Oh, yeah, sorry. And adoptees parents. So many perspectives. Also, I did the translation. [44:54.400 --> 45:00.080] Fantastic. Thanks, Sonny. Okay, thanks, Simon. Thanks, listen. See you soon. Bye. Transcription results written to '/home/forge/transcribe3.sonicengage.com/releases/20240205231104' directory