Willing & Curious With Trish Deutsch

[00:00:01] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Trish, Trish Deutsch. Looking forward to our conversation today Trish.

[00:00:11] And digging deep into healing as we kind of do on the show. Some people are telling me the word healing doesn't quite resonate with them. Does it resonate with you?

[00:00:26] It does. As a verb, as something that is sort of always ongoing. I don't think, well I think many of us won't reach the point where we are healed but always healing.

[00:00:49] Yeah. So what does it mean to you? It's clearly a process and that is echoed many of the adoptees that I interview on this subject agree, you know, it's a process. So what does the process mean to you?

[00:01:14] For me it has been sort of integrating all of myself, I think. So just really coming to terms with and understanding the impact that adoption had on my life.

[00:01:41] And hand in hand how to move forward, how to create close loving relationships, how to heal myself. You know all of those things.

[00:01:57] So when you say integrating selves have you heard, have you been doing this IFS stuff? Is that?

[00:02:06] Yes. My therapist is an adoptee and she does the internal family systems. It has been so incredibly helpful for me. It's been really great.

[00:02:23] I haven't done any one to one IFS but I did do a group call with another adoptee therapist over on the west coast called Cathy McEachlin who's been on the show as well. She's an IFS specialist.

[00:02:39] I've also read, I don't know if I've completely finished, I listened to the book by Richard Schwartz who's the guy that founded IFS like 20-30 years ago or something like that.

[00:03:00] So how would you sum it up for people that are not familiar with it?

[00:03:10] So I admit that I struggle with the concept. I joke that I have a cold dead heart.

[00:03:21] You have a what?

[00:03:23] Cold dead heart. So sort of and just a lot of skepticism in general as a person. So the idea of sort of directly addressing and talking to my baby self and my toddler self, I had to just take a leap of faith and just do it.

[00:03:45] You know, because if I let myself really think about it, I would have thought it was silly. I would have thought it was weird. But I just decided to just do it. What's the harm? We're just going to do this.

[00:04:00] And it has been more helpful than any therapy I've had before.

[00:04:08] Just sort of checking things out with like, oh, I'm really anxious right now and this is a familiar anxiety. What's going on with me?

[00:04:23] Like, how old do I feel? Oh, I feel three. Well, what does three-year-old Trish have to say? And you know, just really sort of processing that in myself and then reassuring the little Trish that we're not little anymore.

[00:04:47] We're a grown up and you're going to be okay. We got this.

[00:04:52] Yeah. So there's the different parts, the different ages, the different feelings and events that are associated with those different ages. And these are the different selves.

[00:05:10] And there's also this other thing, this other self called the uppercase S self as well.

[00:05:20] Right.

[00:05:21] Yeah. So could you explain kind of your take on that?

[00:05:29] I don't know if I can very well. It's just the uppercase self would be the, I think in DBT they call it the rational, the wise mind.

[00:05:45] No, it's the absolute grown up adult me. Not what is happening in the moment and not little me.

[00:05:58] Yeah. So I think the part of it is grown up from my understanding. Yep. And clearly listeners, we're not therapists, right? No.

[00:06:14] We're just talking about stuff so that you can take a dive into it if you want. Or take a dive into the book, right?

[00:06:26] Right.

[00:06:27] The book, I think I probably said this a couple of times before on the podcast, but I think it bears repeating. Dick Schwartz's book is called No Bad Parts.

[00:06:38] So we're not, we are saying that all our parts are good. We're not trying to suppress a scared part, a scared self.

[00:06:56] We're not trying to say to an angry part, you shouldn't be angry. We're allowing, we are allowing and we are parenting.

[00:07:14] Right.

[00:07:15] We are parenting the different selves. So another way that I think of the uppercase self, I think this probably came from Cathy McEachlin, is that it's the uppercase self is the parent.

[00:07:32] And why that's important for us is because, especially important, is if, because IFS isn't an adoptee, isn't solely an adoptee thing, right? It wasn't created for adoption.

[00:07:52] Right.

[00:07:53] It just has a founder, a specific place in this, in our community.

[00:07:57] Right.

[00:07:58] The uppercase self is the parent. We're now parenting ourselves in the way that our adoptive parents didn't parent us, that we lacked when we were growing up.

[00:08:14] This kind of way I take it.

[00:08:17] Right.

[00:08:19] Yep. So, like I can give a specific example.

[00:08:24] So, I tend to freeze if someone yells at me.

[00:08:36] And I don't mean screaming, yelling, but just, you know, upset.

[00:08:41] And recently my husband and I are trying to leave, I'm looking for something in the car, I can't find it. He thinks it's in the car, you know, just that kind of usual like, oh, we got to get out of here.

[00:08:56] And I said, I'm going to go look on the porch. I think they're there. And he's, you know, he just said no, they're in the car.

[00:09:04] And I froze.

[00:09:08] And in that moment, I was able to, you know, sort of have the wherewithal to go whoa, what's going on?

[00:09:19] You know, who, who's here?

[00:09:23] And little me was really, really, really scared that they were going to be hurt.

[00:09:31] And I was able to say, you know, it's, it's really okay.

[00:09:38] You know, I'm, I got this.

[00:09:43] We can work this out.

[00:09:45] You know, Don is a very wonderful, loving, understanding person.

[00:09:53] He you know we're just, we're in a hurry and so he's a little frustrated, but you're not in danger. I'm not in danger. Nobody's in danger, and we're going to be okay.

[00:10:06] And it just got me out of it much quicker than trying to be like, oh, why are you like this is dumb. Why are you scared?

[00:10:17] Yeah.

[00:10:18] So, a brilliant, a brilliant example I think allows us to go kind of really granular and look at the specifics of this moment.

[00:10:33] So, I just want to draw some threads together right so you said.

[00:10:41] You said it's about integrating ourselves. Right. Right. So, in integrating ourselves to me means that the two cells, so the little Trish and the let's call it in a critic Trish.

[00:11:01] They are integrated instead of falling out.

[00:11:06] They make friends.

[00:11:09] Yep.

[00:11:10] They're friends, and the other case S South Trish is the one that's kind of put her arms around the two, like two little kids fighting in the playground, and has said, look, make makeup.

[00:11:31] Shake each other's hands.

[00:11:34] We know that there's different, you know, we know that there's a these situations have in the past led to a fallout between the two cells.

[00:11:48] And the other case S South is creating harmony and peace between the two cells is, is kind of is up to what extent does that mean, does that.

[00:12:02] That's my interpretation right. So, to what extent is that an accurate definition of how you see integrating cells.

[00:12:16] So for me I think it's more, you know, recognizing that

[00:12:27] there are these parts of myself that exist.

[00:12:32] That that exists and recognizing that is sort of step one.

[00:12:38] And then, step two for me. And again I you know I'm guessing this is going to be different for everyone is sort of this self talk, recognizing what who is going on, who is scared, sort of gentle parenting myself through the moment.

[00:13:02] And so eventually, those things that little, the three year old Trish doesn't need to have a panic moment.

[00:13:14] So integrated in that it just becomes

[00:13:20] I'm definitely still there, right, but all I am only uppercase S.

[00:13:29] You know those those parts of myself don't need to sort of scream for attention anymore.

[00:13:41] I do notice that as I do this process with my therapist who I think has been on your show.

[00:13:49] That it.

[00:13:53] Those periods of time, like the one I freeze those get more time elapses between them.

[00:14:04] And the episodes get much much shorter.

[00:14:09] You know, fantastic. Yeah, that is that is fantastic.

[00:14:14] And so, bigger, bigger gaps between episodes and less pain in the episode. Yep, exactly.

[00:14:27] And sorry remind me again, who's the, who's the therapist that has been sharing starting.

[00:14:34] Oh yeah, of course.

[00:14:38] I'm I'm about coming up 500 episodes.

[00:14:43] Wow.

[00:14:47] So, and I'm 57, my brain for him.

[00:14:53] Sharon suggested coming up on coming up on the show.

[00:14:58] So, yeah, it's being the there's more peace more often.

[00:15:07] Right. Yep. And sort of isn't that what we all want.

[00:15:13] And is you know that's that's the healing piece. Yes. Yeah.

[00:15:18] And that's what we all want. And I guess that's why it's the IFS isn't just an adoptee thing, we all want peace, we all have little scared parts critical parts.

[00:15:38] And the parts don't. I was talking about the baby pass perhaps my kind of take on it was more peace between the parts, whereas what you're saying is more more time in the uppercase I self, you're talking about

[00:15:58] that this slight distinction, slight distinction that right.

[00:16:06] And like I said that's, that is how it works for me.

[00:16:13] And everyone's take is going to, you know, how everyone uses it will probably be a little different.

[00:16:21] But yeah, it has been. It has been very helpful and like I said I, I just had to get past the like oh boy this is silly.

[00:16:31] And just just dive in and give it a try.

[00:16:36] So, these kind of these things, not giving something a try can be a barrier to trying something new right mean would you describe it as an experiment, or how would you.

[00:16:57] I am just willing to try lots of things.

[00:17:05] And it not out of like a desperation, but if something is going to could be helpful. If I'm having any kind of struggle and something could be helpful.

[00:17:17] Why not just give it a wholehearted try.

[00:17:23] Because not trying stuff must be one of the things that gets in our way right.

[00:17:32] Right. Yeah, you could be very stuck with the. Well this is just how it is.

[00:17:39] Yeah.

[00:17:41] When it doesn't, it doesn't have to be.

[00:17:45] Had you tried different sorts of therapy before you die.

[00:17:49] Oh yes.

[00:17:52] Or just briefly, I, my adoptive parents where my adoptive mother was very abusive. So I have had a lot of therapy through the years, starting when I was a teenager.

[00:18:08] And they were all, you know, somewhat helpful.

[00:18:14] But just absolutely nothing like this has been, and I think it's especially having a fellow adoptee as a therapist, because I will come with a. Oh my gosh I'm so I have, you know I'm having this thought and I'm so worried about it and she'll just be able to say, oh that's super common.

[00:18:39] I think a lot of adoptees have that.

[00:18:42] And it's just such a relief that like, oh, okay, well now I have a framework.

[00:18:49] And we can work through it.

[00:18:51] Yeah.

[00:18:54] So, alongside the support of the therapist and Sharon who's an adoptee yourself.

[00:19:03] What other things do you think that you've got from IFS that you've not got from other stuff because clearly you've been in. I'm not going to ask you age but because I don't ask with polite and

[00:19:22] I'm talking, we must be talking decades, multiple decades. Yes. Yeah, yes.

[00:19:27] Right. Yeah, so you could be like 22.

[00:19:35] In therapy since I was two years old.

[00:19:39] So what else is what else is IFS given you what's what's the difference, what do you think is the difference that's made the difference Trish.

[00:19:48] I think it's IFS plus the adoptee perspective.

[00:19:54] So being able to look at those parts of self with an adoptee lens that has been the most helpful.

[00:20:10] I have had fantastic therapists before it's not that I've just had bad therapists.

[00:20:18] But it's just this particular perspective of, of the adoptee and the parts of self because I think as adoptees.

[00:20:33] I can't speak to all adoptees, obviously, but for many of us, especially my age and I am 54 I don't have any problem saying how old I am.

[00:20:43] I didn't ask if she just volunteered to do selfless.

[00:20:50] I'm 57. Yeah, that I just volunteer the information.

[00:20:56] So you know in the era that for my adoption.

[00:21:03] You know I was in the hospital for two weeks by myself.

[00:21:08] And then I was in a foster home for four months, and then I was adopted, and that's just how they did things.

[00:21:19] And I think that we know now that that's really damaging to infants, that they need a consistent caregiver from the beginning.

[00:21:36] And so we do. I think adoptees are probably more likely to have these parts of selves that are sort of inside and yelling, you know like abandonment and anxiety and other things.

[00:21:56] Yeah.

[00:21:57] So, the consistent caregiver.

[00:22:02] I don't know whether hopefully I'm not being patronized into the listeners.

[00:22:07] The consistent caregiver that that's what IFS does it to stop, it's established you as your own consistent caregiver because you're always.

[00:22:17] Oh right, you know, always there.

[00:22:20] Right, I had not thought of it that way but that is brilliant. Yeah, exactly.

[00:22:26] Yeah. So, I mean, for me one of the critical things in healing is that it's about a shift in a perspective.

[00:22:41] Right, so you use, you use the word perspective a couple of times, you use a dot t perspective from Sharon.

[00:22:50] And you've talked to her, and you just said, I hadn't thought about it in that way.

[00:22:55] Right. So, my little hobby horse.

[00:23:00] Right. In terms of, in terms of what healing is for me, healing is a shift in our perspective.

[00:23:11] Yes.

[00:23:13] So, the myth is that time is the greatest healer.

[00:23:21] Correct.

[00:23:22] It's a myth.

[00:23:24] So, if time isn't the greatest healer, because we know people, we know adoptees who are like have got years on us, who are still suffering right so time isn't the greatest healer.

[00:23:41] You were adopted 54 years ago, I was adopted 57 years ago.

[00:23:45] And yet, we still have some stuff right.

[00:23:51] Bear in mind what you said about healing is a verb.

[00:23:57] Right.

[00:24:00] So, we're told this, like, we, to me it's really nuts because we're told that everybody in the world is told this myth that time is the greatest healer.

[00:24:14] And some people will question it and some people won't, but nobody's saying, well, if time isn't the greatest healer, what is?

[00:24:25] Right.

[00:24:28] It has to be.

[00:24:30] A shift in perspective.

[00:24:32] Right.

[00:24:33] A shift in perspective.

[00:24:35] How many different words can you come up with that?

[00:24:38] Eureka moment.

[00:24:41] Epiphany, that might not land for you because I know that there was a lot of religious stuff going on for you.

[00:24:48] Is that you or somebody else? Sorry, I'm just kidding.

[00:24:51] So, okay, we can describe epiphanies right.

[00:24:54] I'm not saying this, I'm not coming at this from a religious thing.

[00:24:57] Right. So, you've got an insight shift, a shift in perspective, a eureka moment and a ha moment, a sudden realization, a yeah, when we see the world with real eyes, right, real eyes, not with a lens, a trauma lens.

[00:25:19] Right.

[00:25:21] I'm like a cheerleader for insights.

[00:25:26] Because nobody said that, oh well, everybody says, well yes, therapy can help, right, but that's the strategy.

[00:25:37] Right.

[00:25:38] That's the outcome we're looking for.

[00:25:40] We're looking for a shift in our perspective.

[00:25:44] We're looking to say, yeah, I hadn't seen it like that before.

[00:25:54] Like I was doing a podcast last week and we were talking about bias.

[00:26:06] And I normally thought about what cognitive bias, right.

[00:26:11] Cognitive bias is basically being stuck in a belief.

[00:26:16] What thinker thinks, the prover proves, right.

[00:26:20] So, I go for me, right.

[00:26:24] Nobody loves me.

[00:26:26] The girl doesn't ring up when she says she's going to do, when she says she's going to ring up after I've met her at the party.

[00:26:33] She doesn't love me.

[00:26:35] Right.

[00:26:36] There you are.

[00:26:37] That's more proof.

[00:26:38] I told you, I told you, I told you that nobody loves you Simon.

[00:26:43] Right.

[00:26:44] So, and this is just the latest line in a long load of women that haven't loved you.

[00:26:51] Right.

[00:26:53] This did happen for me in, well obviously not forever because I've been married to Lynne since 1993.

[00:27:02] Well, sorry, I've been with Lynne since 1993 and married to her in 1997.

[00:27:06] Right. So cognitive bias, right.

[00:27:08] So I had in my head, right, cognitive bias as a negative thing because we think of like racial prejudice and stereotyping.

[00:27:21] And those are the sorts of things that go around bias.

[00:27:24] And they're all, you know, they're always a negative thing.

[00:27:29] Right.

[00:27:31] And somebody said to me, I was saying about cognitive bias and she gave an example, I can't remember what it was,

[00:27:40] of belief in ourself or belief in the uppercase S self, maybe something around that.

[00:27:47] And belief that we can change, belief that we can heal, belief that we will have more insights that will help us along our healing journey, da da da da da.

[00:27:56] I said the same as you, right.

[00:27:59] I'd never thought of it that way.

[00:28:04] I'd only thought of cognitive bias as a bad thing.

[00:28:11] I hadn't seen that cognitive bias could be believing in ourselves, believing in the power of healing,

[00:28:19] believing in the power of a strategy like therapy to help us along that curve.

[00:28:29] Or even the awareness gives you a, you know, so now if it were me having that belief, right, that nobody loves me and that's why he didn't call me,

[00:28:42] I would have the awareness to go, oh, where's that coming from?

[00:28:50] You know, where is this nobody loves me coming from and sort of be able to sort of call up the part of myself that believes that and have a conversation and do the gentle parenting thing.

[00:29:07] So it's the, the unloved part, the unloved part, the part that feels unloved, the part that remembers you said that your adopted mother was abusive.

[00:29:32] Abusive. It's the part that's been hurt by the abusive adopted mother.

[00:29:40] Right.

[00:29:42] So you're making a link between like a recurrent belief and the part that has that belief.

[00:29:56] And that's allowing you to question the belief, bust the belief.

[00:30:01] Right.

[00:30:02] Get curious about the belief, questioning the belief.

[00:30:05] Yep. And question not in a, why do you feel this way?

[00:30:09] But very much a, hey, what's going on?

[00:30:13] Because you said gentle parent.

[00:30:16] Yep.

[00:30:17] So it's not, it's not, I started so I'll finish.

[00:30:25] It's not somebody like an interrogation.

[00:30:28] Right. You know, they've got the thumbscrews on Trish, right?

[00:30:33] Not got like the spotlight and you're, yeah.

[00:30:39] Right. Yeah. I don't know why I came up with that.

[00:30:43] I think it's sometimes useful to see extremes.

[00:30:46] Yeah, yeah.

[00:30:47] Yeah, we're clarifying that the gentle parenting thing.

[00:30:52] So back to where we were 10, 20 minutes ago.

[00:30:59] Yeah, I think the word kind of sums it up for me was willingness.

[00:31:07] Right.

[00:31:08] Was that your willingness?

[00:31:10] You were willing to try a new therapy despite the fact it's sounding a little bit.

[00:31:21] I don't know.

[00:31:22] Yes.

[00:31:26] So, I mean, would you say willingness sums up or curiosity or?

[00:31:33] Both of those.

[00:31:37] I just sort of as a general personal value, very much value curiosity about myself, about the world.

[00:31:49] And so that along with willingness and just a desire to feel better.

[00:31:59] To be a better spouse and friend and daughter and mom and grandma, all those things.

[00:32:11] Grandma. Wow.

[00:32:13] So if willingness and curiosity, general desire, general outlook are the things that push us, you know, keep us up, keep us in the game.

[00:32:34] Like keep us in the game.

[00:32:37] Then things like unwillingness.

[00:32:43] What's the opposite of curiosity?

[00:32:45] Nothing comes to mind.

[00:32:48] What other things do you think?

[00:32:53] Are there any other things that you think have got in your way along the healing journey?

[00:33:01] Because clearly willingness hasn't.

[00:33:04] Sorry, unwillingness hasn't gotten in the way.

[00:33:06] But do you think we're...

[00:33:08] Sorry?

[00:33:09] Yeah, no, I feel like I have always had the willingness and the curiosity.

[00:33:16] And again, I feel like a broken record.

[00:33:19] But it's that...

[00:33:22] It's this for me, it's this particular mode of therapy and the AdapT perspective that has been the most helpful.

[00:33:32] You know, I've had previous therapists who were very much cheerleaders.

[00:33:37] Sort of the like, oh, goodness, everything you've been, you've gone through, you're so strong.

[00:33:43] Well, yes. And now what?

[00:33:48] You know, let's get this show on the road.

[00:33:52] Like, and now what?

[00:33:56] And I just...

[00:33:58] They're probably just getting you to appreciate the strength that you have, that you haven't seen for yourself.

[00:34:10] And yeah, it is okay. Right. Okay. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. Okay.

[00:34:14] And exactly.

[00:34:17] How do we move on?

[00:34:20] So is there anything that you feel that's...

[00:34:24] Is there anything that you feel has got in the way along your healing journey?

[00:34:30] Myself mostly, honestly.

[00:34:38] I am very glad.

[00:34:39] So is that a particular...

[00:34:42] I mean, now you know because you're doing the IFS stuff, right?

[00:34:47] Is it a particular self that has got in the way?

[00:34:52] Oh, that's a great question.

[00:34:56] Honestly, probably yes. It's probably that youngest self.

[00:35:06] Sorry, bit of dead air there, ladies and gentlemen.

[00:35:10] I'm in charge of the dogs today.

[00:35:14] It's the scared self?

[00:35:16] The youngest self.

[00:35:21] Because that youngest self, you know, my therapist and I have talked about it,

[00:35:27] the sort of the self that was in the hospital for two weeks,

[00:35:33] not being cared for because my mother was not allowed to see me or hold me,

[00:35:39] touch me, anything.

[00:35:42] So it's just me in a bassinet for two weeks.

[00:35:45] And she said that that self sort of gave up.

[00:35:50] So you know, this is how it is.

[00:35:56] This is just how it is.

[00:35:58] It's terrible and it's just going to be terrible.

[00:36:03] And there's nobody here, no matter how much I cry.

[00:36:08] You know, this is just how it is.

[00:36:13] And she's wrong.

[00:36:18] I mean, she wasn't wrong then, right?

[00:36:21] That is a very reasonable...

[00:36:23] It's a pretty reasonable thing for a baby to think.

[00:36:29] Yeah, I think it's the baby feeling that way.

[00:36:37] Right.

[00:36:38] Not thinking it.

[00:36:40] Right, yes, yes.

[00:36:42] Sorry, I hope that didn't come across as pedantic.

[00:36:47] But I think the feelings come first.

[00:36:52] Oh, I heard something.

[00:36:56] I don't know if I can remember the exact number here, but it blew my mind.

[00:37:03] So, and I don't know the provenance of this.

[00:37:11] I heard it from somebody who I trust, a podcaster I listened to.

[00:37:17] I listened to a few, so I can't remember exactly which one it was.

[00:37:22] He said or she said, we've been feeling for six million years as humans

[00:37:31] and thinking for a million and a half.

[00:37:38] Right?

[00:37:39] Now, the idea that there's been human beings for six million years,

[00:37:45] that totally blew my mind.

[00:37:47] You know, when we think about, say we watch, I don't know, like a 60s classic big film,

[00:37:58] you know, when, you know, like El Cid or something about Jesus or, I know,

[00:38:03] something set 2000 years ago.

[00:38:05] Right.

[00:38:06] And we compare where we are in the last 2000 years.

[00:38:11] And then somebody says, well, we've been feeling for six million years.

[00:38:16] That's just mind blowing.

[00:38:19] So how far have you gone?

[00:38:23] But there's something to do, maybe I need to check it,

[00:38:28] as a neuroscientist or something about this.

[00:38:30] But there's something to do with the fact that our feeling brain is older than our thinking brain.

[00:38:38] So we are feeling, we are feeling, I mean,

[00:38:43] As you were talking about, you know, being on your own in the bassinet for two weeks in hospital,

[00:38:52] as you were talking, first thing that came to my mind was I felt your anguish.

[00:39:00] I could see, I could feel that.

[00:39:03] And the word that I wrote down was abandoned.

[00:39:10] Yeah.

[00:39:11] And then the next thought that came to my mind was being abandoned by others and abandoned hope.

[00:39:25] Right.

[00:39:28] And if we've abandoned hope, then we're not going to be curious about what's in front of us.

[00:39:37] Right.

[00:39:39] So I'm kind of wrapping it all up in a bow here.

[00:39:45] And there's something else that happened.

[00:39:49] No wonder.

[00:39:56] Oh, I remember this.

[00:39:58] It was something I heard a while ago about a woman who worked in a,

[00:40:06] either it was a, you know, like a baby's home or a mother and child home

[00:40:12] where they separated the mothers and the babies afterwards,

[00:40:15] of which, you know, I've spoken to a few birth mothers and understand and interviewed some birth mothers for the show and seen that.

[00:40:25] So there's a woman in charge in one of these baby dorms, let's call them that.

[00:40:32] And this really is tearing me up as I'm about to share with you just the thought of it.

[00:40:43] And it was when they stop crying, we know they're ready to be adopted.

[00:40:55] Isn't that absolutely, my whole body's feeling that now.

[00:41:04] And I'm also sorry for bringing it up because I can see that it's been for you.

[00:41:11] Sorry.

[00:41:12] Oh no.

[00:41:13] I'm going to trigger, I should have given a trigger warning.

[00:41:16] No.

[00:41:17] But that, you know, and in that place,

[00:41:22] that kind of just, well, it is,

[00:41:28] was it, I'm thinking of something from another movie, maybe Raiders of the Lost Ark or something, and it said, abandon hope, all who step here.

[00:41:40] Maybe it's from Treasure Island or something like that.

[00:41:43] Hope all who tread here.

[00:41:46] And I'm just thinking of us shutting down and as stuffing our feelings because they're overwhelming to us.

[00:42:04] Right.

[00:42:05] And a conversation, you know, I did some work with a therapist about eight years ago.

[00:42:13] She was the best that I could find at the time.

[00:42:16] She gave me and I did a couple of sessions with her and it did get me from it.

[00:42:22] It did actually kickstarted my search.

[00:42:27] I had stopped searching.

[00:42:30] And I had a meltdown with that therapist and that restarted the search, which led me to my truth and a lot of healing.

[00:42:42] So she, I'm very thankful for her for doing that because she precipitated that.

[00:42:53] She gave me her notes.

[00:42:58] We did three or four sessions and she said, I think I've got you.

[00:43:02] I've got you as far as I can, Simon or something like that.

[00:43:07] And it said, Simon evades, something like Simon avoids emotions and goes to intellect, something like that.

[00:43:21] Oh gosh, that's familiar.

[00:43:23] Yeah. Well, that's kind of why I'm bringing it up because you said something at the start about what do you say?

[00:43:29] Cold, cold, dead heart.

[00:43:31] Right.

[00:43:32] But when you said it, you said it with a smile on your face and a laugh.

[00:43:36] So, you know, like something's gone, right?

[00:43:40] Something's changed.

[00:43:42] Oh yeah.

[00:43:43] I definitely make that joke because I, it's easier to have the intellect and the humor rather than the feelings.

[00:43:56] Yeah.

[00:43:57] You know, feelings are challenging.

[00:44:07] And so, you know, they get avoided.

[00:44:10] Yeah.

[00:44:13] And that's what's so different to me now is that I sort of just let myself feel it with this curiosity.

[00:44:25] Yeah.

[00:44:26] And that's new for me too.

[00:44:33] That feels a good place to bring it in.

[00:44:36] Yeah.

[00:44:39] 45, 50 minutes have just flown by.

[00:44:42] Unless there's, you know, a place on that I brought that to a premature ending.

[00:44:48] Is there anything else that you'd like to share?

[00:44:51] Well, the other, you know, the only other sort of the piece that has helped with my healing, which could be a whole nother hour's conversation, but I won't go there, is that, you know,

[00:45:04] I reunited with my birth mom when I was 23.

[00:45:09] And 12 years ago she adopted me back.

[00:45:16] So she is legally my mother.

[00:45:21] And she is, I am very lucky, which I struggle with as a, you know, I don't, I don't know what word to say, but she is kind and open and I sort of hit the mom jackpot.

[00:45:45] So, you know, just that has been very healing. I have the genetic mirroring. My kids have that genetic mirroring.

[00:45:56] So we're pretty lucky to have that.

[00:46:00] Yeah.

[00:46:01] To have her in our lives.

[00:46:03] And how does she feel about being a great grandma?

[00:46:07] She said that was fine. She didn't mind that at all.

[00:46:11] But thinking of her daughter as a grandmother, that made her feel old.

[00:46:17] Oh right. That was the, yeah. Yeah. My wife, my wife's favorite auntie said, I'm not sure whether I can tell people you're my niece anymore.

[00:46:30] Now you're 60.

[00:46:34] Yeah, my wife's a couple years, well three years older than me.

[00:46:39] How,

[00:46:43] just briefly, just briefly,

[00:46:47] how do you see the kind of the inner healing, which is what we've been discussing, obviously what we've been discussing about the IFS stuff.

[00:46:58] How do you see the inner healing and the outer healing?

[00:47:03] The re-union,

[00:47:12] it's clearly, you're the first person I think that I've interviewed who's been adopted back by the birth mother.

[00:47:20] How do you see the inner and outer healing?

[00:47:26] The relationship between the two.

[00:47:28] Oh, well, doing the inner healing allows me to be more present

[00:47:37] and to sort of take in more of, more love,

[00:47:47] more affection from my mom.

[00:47:52] You know, because that, that the intellect, the humor, the all of that gets in the way.

[00:47:57] The, and so having this integration of parts and understanding of what's happening allows me to be closer

[00:48:12] to her and everyone in my life.

[00:48:17] Yeah, so the inner work facilitates the relationships.

[00:48:22] Yep, and I'm sure vice versa because she is very open and we can talk about absolutely anything.

[00:48:32] So that's like a virtuous circle.

[00:48:37] Right, yeah.

[00:48:40] Thank you very much Trish.

[00:48:44] Yeah, thank you Simon.

[00:48:46] And thank you to listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon.