Nancy Verrier (the Primal Wound) says the adoptee's self is wounded. Richard Schwartz (No Bad Parts) says the Self is unwoundable. Do you see a clash? Who do you think is right?
Here's the post:
More on Richard Schwartz https://ifs-institute.com/about-us/richard-c-schwartz-phd
Guests and the host are not (unless mentioned) licensed pscyho-therapists and speak from their own opinion only. Seek qualified advice if you need help.
[00:00:02] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted
[00:00:06] to be joined by me. You've just got me again, again. Just me on my own today. You may have
[00:00:14] noticed that I've been releasing less podcasts than I used to do and I thought I should let you know why.
[00:00:23] Well, the why is that I'm focusing on speaking and training and in particular working with adoption agencies to help
[00:00:37] the staff that work for them and their adoptive parents to a different perspective on trauma.
[00:00:49] And what I've been talking about quite a lot, you may have heard me talking about being trauma informed but healing obsessed.
[00:00:59] And thriving obsessed right? Thriving. Focusing on our thriving. I've clearly also been doing a lot of work
[00:01:09] if you watch what I'm doing in terms of webinars as well for those groups that I've mentioned and also
[00:01:17] for adoptees. So I'm trying to do whatever I can to share what I've learned from my own experience and
[00:01:26] obviously all the experiences of the fantastic guests that have been on the podcast in this Thrive framework.
[00:01:32] So the Thrive framework is based on everything that I've learned over the last three and a half years.
[00:01:37] And it's a framework for a course for webinars and a booking time. So that's why I'm doing less episodes of the podcast.
[00:01:49] So let's get straight to it then. The title of this podcast was Wounded or Unwoundable.
[00:02:03] And I came up with that. I came up with this parallel, this question for a post on Facebook.
[00:02:14] And I put that on. So we're juxtaposing, we're putting these two views against one another to see what feels right to us.
[00:02:26] So I'd ask you to check in. Do you think that we are wounded or do you think that we are unwoundable?
[00:02:35] And or do you think we're both? Right. Or do you think we're neither?
[00:02:43] And I'd encourage you to just go with you gut feel for that and check in.
[00:02:52] So wounded, unwoundable, both or neither. Maybe there's another option that I haven't come up with.
[00:03:07] Right. So wounded, we're talking about Nancy Barrier and the primal wound theory here in a book which came up early 90s, 93,
[00:03:20] that being separated from our birth parents causes this, I think she calls it psychological, emotional,
[00:03:33] and I think she uses the word mental, and I think she also uses the word spiritual wound.
[00:03:40] So that's her contention.
[00:03:45] And the name is well known, clearly. The name is clearly well known.
[00:03:51] In adoption circles, this primal wound, perhaps a name that's less well known,
[00:03:57] a guy called Richard Schwartz. He's the founder of something called Internal Family Systems.
[00:04:04] And the book of his that I've listened to is No Bad Hearts.
[00:04:11] And his contention is that the essence of who we are, what we call, what he calls the uppercase S,
[00:04:25] that that is unwoundable. Right.
[00:04:29] So I think the most direct comparison between these two people and the both shrinks, right?
[00:04:42] They've both got their qualifications as shrinks.
[00:04:47] I think what Richard Schwartz would call the uppercase S, if he was going to give it a synonym or a different name,
[00:04:58] the men are saying, he would call it spirit. He would call it spirit.
[00:05:03] And I think I'd agree with him too.
[00:05:08] I would say that uppercase S is spirit, is consciousness, is awareness.
[00:05:16] OK, so does this matter?
[00:05:22] Like, oh, first off, is Richard Schwartz a trauma denier?
[00:05:26] No. He essentially says that the trauma is in our parts, but not in ourself.
[00:05:38] So the clearest metaphor I've come up with for this is the cheese holder in the trivial pursuits game.
[00:05:45] Right. So if you've ever played trivial pursuits, each player has a little circular piece of plastic with six triangular spaces in it.
[00:06:01] And you put the, when you get the question right for each of the six spaces, you put the cheese in the cheese holder.
[00:06:07] Right. So what I'm saying here is Richard Schwartz is saying that the uppercase S self is the cheese holder.
[00:06:17] And the parts which have the trauma in them, they're the cheese.
[00:06:23] They're the cheeses. They're the six cheeses.
[00:06:26] OK. So does, so what, so I put, I post this question on Facebook.
[00:06:34] Are we, are we wounded or are we unwoundable?
[00:06:41] So wounded, Nancy Verrier, unwoundable, Richard Schwartz.
[00:06:46] But it's not a denier, it's just saying the trauma is in our parts, not ourself.
[00:06:49] OK, are you with me so far? I hope so.
[00:06:54] What surprised me was the number of people, when I put this post on Facebook, the number of people that actually said yes.
[00:07:07] Yes to Richard Schwartz.
[00:07:09] And they talked about a lowercase S self that is wounded and an uppercase S self that is unwoundable.
[00:07:26] So that surprised me because we see so much talk of the trauma that's in the parts and so little talk.
[00:07:36] And talk by talk, I mean chatter on Facebook or in groups.
[00:07:42] We hear so little of the uppercase S self, the unwoundable part.
[00:07:50] There was, maybe a third of the people agreed with that.
[00:08:00] I don't do a tally.
[00:08:02] There were, there were a lot of people that went with, with, with Nancy Verrier's theory.
[00:08:11] And I can, I can understand why that might be the case.
[00:08:16] And as I was thinking about this, this podcast this morning, as I was walking, as I was walking this morning, I thought about the kind of, we watch a lot of, I thought about legal dramas, right?
[00:08:31] And cop dramas and often a cop drama that is, you know, it comes to court and you've got one lawyer stating one thing or one lawyer stating the other.
[00:08:43] And what, what hit me from, what hits me from that is that, you know, sometimes I, I know which lawyer is right.
[00:08:57] And sometimes I, I don't.
[00:09:01] Okay.
[00:09:01] So it's more, there's, there's more of a drama to it.
[00:09:03] We don't know who's right.
[00:09:06] But I, but both, but, but both, when I don't know which one is right, because I haven't seen the evidence myself, both people seem really, really believable.
[00:09:20] So they pick the, they pick the, they, they pick the words, they pick the events, they pick the stories that suit their case.
[00:09:34] So if they're arguing for the defense, then they'll pick the, then they'll pick the events and, and ask the questions trying to, to, to, that, that elucidate, elucidate.
[00:09:47] That's wrong.
[00:09:47] And the point to the, to the, to the, to the defendant being not guilty, right?
[00:09:53] But the prosecutor, she or, or he will pick what suits their needs too.
[00:10:02] And as the viewer, we're confused, right?
[00:10:05] And this, what, this is what adds to the drama because we're not sure which lawyer is, is right.
[00:10:14] And because we're taken in by both of them, that adds, adds to the drama.
[00:10:20] If we're clear, if we clearly know that, you know, that the defendant is guilty, for example, we think one way.
[00:10:27] And if we kind of, and if we think the defendant is innocent, we think another way.
[00:10:32] And we'll see, we'll see the truth in, in the lawyer representing the person that, or yeah, representing the side of the case that's, that we know is, is incorrect, right?
[00:10:45] And both of these people, Nancy Berry and Richard Schwartz, have really, really convincing arguments.
[00:10:57] But who's correct?
[00:10:59] Who's, who's right?
[00:11:01] Or are they both right?
[00:11:03] Or neither of them right?
[00:11:05] So as you, as you're thinking, as you're listening on to this, I'm thinking, well, are people moving from just one view that Nancy Berry is right?
[00:11:20] Are they thinking now of Richard Schwartz might be right as well?
[00:11:27] So everybody's got their own opinion on it.
[00:11:32] Everybody's got their own opinion on it and their own experience with it.
[00:11:37] So I would share my, my experience and my, my thoughts.
[00:11:50] So when I read the primal wound, I thought this is, this explains everything.
[00:11:56] This, this explains, this explains everything.
[00:11:59] She's totally right.
[00:12:03] And there was a relief in that diagnosis, right?
[00:12:07] Finally, I found the, the cause of all my stuff.
[00:12:12] And, and then I started hanging, I mean, at that time I was hanging around in groups, looking at, looking at, looking at, look at self-development kind of courses, right?
[00:12:25] Looking at who we are and looking at our thoughts and feelings and emotions and what, what some people might call consciousness.
[00:12:35] And, and then I, it struck me, it struck me so clear one day that who we totally are, sorry, who we fundamentally are is unwoundable.
[00:12:53] So, so what?
[00:12:59] So what?
[00:13:01] Well, it's, it's freedom.
[00:13:04] For me, that was freedom from what my friend and colleague Jude Hunk calls the, you know, the, the trauma bound identity.
[00:13:13] That insight was the, was the key that unlocked the puddle up that was chaining me in.
[00:13:27] And, and, and, and, and so what?
[00:13:30] What like, so, so what?
[00:13:33] I mean, it's people asking the question.
[00:13:37] Some people ask the question on, on the Facebook group.
[00:13:40] So you're asking this question, Simon, but I don't see what the difference is.
[00:13:45] Well, until we see the difference, we won't feel the difference.
[00:13:51] Let, let me, and also, you know, like make your own mind up.
[00:13:57] I'm, I'm positing my theory.
[00:14:00] These two of the people were positing their theory.
[00:14:03] I would encourage you to make your, make your own mind up.
[00:14:09] But be, be, be open.
[00:14:12] I had this great phrase yesterday.
[00:14:14] Heard it before, forgotten about it.
[00:14:16] Psychological flexibility.
[00:14:21] So we're not asking anybody to, I'm not asking anybody to, to, to change, or to change, change the way they think or whether they feel or the way they feel.
[00:14:35] So I'm literally, I'm just saying that psychological flexibility has really helped me.
[00:14:41] So psychological flexibility is, is taking our own thoughts less seriously.
[00:14:47] Questioning our thoughts, our feelings, and, and belief.
[00:14:51] And as I think this, as I, as I say this, I'm thinking, am I coming, coming, coming across as pompous and I know better, that I know better here, right?
[00:15:03] I hope not.
[00:15:04] I don't know.
[00:15:05] How, how can I, how can I judge that?
[00:15:08] But I would encourage you to take a, take a look at this and, and it comes to the, the, the why thing, right?
[00:15:19] And, and, and what is this uppercase S self that, that Richard Schwartz is talking about anyway?
[00:15:27] Well, he doesn't, he, he, he just talks about the uppercase S self, but what, what he does for, for me, far better is, is he explains it in, in terms of his eight, eight C's.
[00:15:44] The eight C's.
[00:15:45] So they, they are compassion, creativity, curiosity, confidence, courage, calm, connectedness, and clarity.
[00:16:02] Those, those are the characteristics of the uppercase S self.
[00:16:11] And I want to just break, break those down for you, right?
[00:16:15] So I'm going to start at, I'm going to start at, with the last one, clarity.
[00:16:20] So when people say, yeah, when we see better, we do better.
[00:16:25] When we come out of the fog, we see the, the, the trauma, the, the storms, the storm clouds of our, of our trauma.
[00:16:35] And then at some point, some point, that, that, that, that trauma blows, blows through.
[00:16:43] And reveals the, the, the, the, the blue sky, right?
[00:16:49] Or the black sky, if it's dark.
[00:16:52] And, and, and at some point we realise, if we're really fortunate, that we are the sky.
[00:17:01] And the, the trauma, the clouds were, were, were the trauma.
[00:17:05] We are, we are space, but for our feelings, we are not our feelings.
[00:17:12] We are not our trauma.
[00:17:13] So that's clarity.
[00:17:15] Connectedness.
[00:17:18] Well, I, I had a huge moment of this.
[00:17:26] Connecting with my birth mother through a, reading a letter from her to the social worker about my teddy bear.
[00:17:34] And, and I've talked about this quite a lot, but I felt connected with her in that moment.
[00:17:41] And, but you haven't read my, you know, your birth mother is different to my birth mother.
[00:17:50] You haven't read my letter.
[00:17:51] So how, how are you, you know, how can you get that?
[00:17:54] And maybe, maybe you've had a moment of connectedness when you've been lost in the crowd, right?
[00:18:01] When, when you felt connected with everybody, maybe that's been in a rock concert.
[00:18:06] Maybe that's been in a church.
[00:18:08] Maybe it's been in a football ground.
[00:18:10] Maybe that's been in nature.
[00:18:13] But I'm pretty sure that at some point you felt, you felt connected.
[00:18:20] You felt connected with the rest of, of, of the, of the, of the people that you're with or with the world.
[00:18:31] Calm, calm, calm, calm, calm, calm, calm.
[00:18:36] That the, the essence of ourself is, is peace.
[00:18:40] And go back to the, go back to the, the, the weather, a weather metaphor here.
[00:18:49] And the storm, the eye of the storm, right?
[00:18:54] The eye, the eye, the E-Y-E of, of, of the storm.
[00:18:58] The, the, the eye of the storm, in the eye of the storm is peace and calm.
[00:19:05] What, what if, what if the eye of the storm, the E-Y-E of the storm is that, is the eye,
[00:19:15] the, the peace of the eye, the letter I, who I am, who you are.
[00:19:21] The next one, the next C is courage.
[00:19:27] And I, and as I, as I say that, I think of the opposite of courage.
[00:19:32] I think of the trauma bound identity, my trauma bound, of how I am in my trauma bound identity.
[00:19:39] Before that freedom.
[00:19:42] And, and the answers, scared, terrified, afraid.
[00:19:51] That's what the trauma bound feels like.
[00:19:55] And, and next one, confidence.
[00:19:57] A, a, a bit, a bit like, a bit like courage, really.
[00:20:02] So, when we're, when, when, when I'm coming from my, when I'm in my trauma bound identity,
[00:20:08] I'm, I'm second guessing myself.
[00:20:11] I'm worrying.
[00:20:12] When I'm my, in my uppercase as self, I'm not worried.
[00:20:21] I don't fear failure.
[00:20:23] I don't fear rejection.
[00:20:28] The next C is curiosity.
[00:20:30] So, I'd encourage you to be curious about this stuff and dive in.
[00:20:36] I, I, I've been curious about this stuff.
[00:20:38] I mean, it's really helped me.
[00:20:42] Uh, creativity.
[00:20:45] Creativity is the penultimate C.
[00:20:49] I'm not sure.
[00:20:50] Nothing comes, really comes to mind.
[00:20:52] I guess it's creative problem solving, right?
[00:20:54] The, the more in, in our, in our trauma bound identity, we're shut down.
[00:21:00] The ideas, the, the, the idea flow has stopped, right?
[00:21:04] The solutions have stopped.
[00:21:06] The solutions getting out of whatever tricky situation we're in with our, with our birth parents, with our adoptive parents, with our business, with our partner.
[00:21:18] Yeah.
[00:21:19] And, and the, the last one is, is compassion.
[00:21:28] I'd, I'd, I'd urge this one because it, it's about looking at others rather than ourself, right?
[00:21:41] So when I'm in my trauma or about a trauma bound identity, it's all about me, me, me, me, me.
[00:21:46] What, what, what can I get out of this?
[00:21:50] Whereas compassion would point, I'm putting other people's needs first.
[00:21:56] So there, there, there we, there we are.
[00:22:00] That's a, that's, that's, that, that's a summation of the, of Richard Schwartz's eight, eight C's and they're the characteristics of the upper case itself.
[00:22:10] So I, I'm, I'm with, I'm with Richard Schwartz and I, but I used to be with Nancy Dario.
[00:22:19] You know, my take, our takes change.
[00:22:21] You know, that's part of curiosity is, is being open to change.
[00:22:24] And I think I'll just leave you with one idea here.
[00:22:29] This is, this is the metaphor that I came up with earlier in the year of the kids game, rock, paper, scissors, right?
[00:22:35] So the rock is us.
[00:22:40] And so that's who we are.
[00:22:42] That's the upper case itself.
[00:22:44] That's the rock.
[00:22:46] And in the kids game, if, if, if, if we, if, if we shake a rock, we shake a rock.
[00:22:54] If we shake, if we're the rock and the other person is the scissors, then the scissors can't cut the rock and the rock wins.
[00:23:05] So that, the scissors would be necessary.
[00:23:12] You know, scissors can cut, scissors cut, scissors cut paper, don't they?
[00:23:19] But do, do, does, if, if our trauma is the scissors, does our trauma cut us?
[00:23:28] Well, that would be Nancy Ferrier's theory that the scissors cut rock.
[00:23:34] But in the kids game, kids, the rock beats the scissors because the scissors can't cut rock.
[00:23:41] But what we're not, we're not denying the trauma here.
[00:23:45] We're just saying that the, in the, using the kids game metaphor, the trauma is the paper.
[00:23:53] And the paper beats the rock because it wraps it in the rock until we unfurl the paper and reveal the rock that has been hidden by the paper,
[00:24:13] that's been obscured by the paper, that's been covered over by the paper, but not damaged by it.
[00:24:22] Thank you very much.
[00:24:24] See you soon.
[00:24:26] Bye-bye.